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40kdhs
29-03-2009, 23:22
I'm sure that VC and demons are on the top 2 right now but i'm not sure who is the top 3 and 4.Can you name the current top 4 tournament armies because i'm curious? Thank you for sharing.

kylek2235
29-03-2009, 23:26
As far as Battle Points are concerned:

Daemons
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
...
High Elves?

The fourth spot is pretty debatable, but the first three are the staple of every major tournament. Overall changes a bit because comp scoring is a bit more subjective.

40kdhs
29-03-2009, 23:30
Why is the 4th spot debatable?How is WoC doing compared to HE? We probably don't have a clear picture about the new lizzardment because they came out.

kylek2235
29-03-2009, 23:47
WoC hasn't been out long enough for me to say. The "strong" WoC lists seem to gravitate towards massing Gateways at the moment. It may or may not last like that. Here's the Lonewolf winners by Battle Points at Lonewolf. When I go to Adepticon next weekend, we'll see if the spread continues or if new armies like WoC and Lizzies advance.

Vampire Counts 96
High Elves 95
Daemons of Chaos 88
Dark Elves 86
Daemons of Chaos 84
Dark Elves 80
High Elves 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Dwarves 78
Empire 77
Daemons of Chaos 76
Dark Elves 76
Dwarves 75
Orcs and Goblins 74
Wood Elves 74
Lizardmen 72
Vampire Counts 72
Dark Elves 72
Daemons of Chaos 72
Beasts of Chaos 71
Daemons of Chaos 70
Wood Elves 68
Daemons of Chaos 68
Vampire Counts 68
Dark Elves 67
High Elves 66
Ogre Kingdoms 64
Dark Elves 64
Dwarves 64
Daemons of Chaos 64
High Elves 64
High Elves 63
Vampire Counts 63
Skaven 63
Dwarves 62
Vampire Counts 62
Orcs and Goblins 61
Skaven 61
Vampire Counts 60
Tomb Kings 60
Dwarves 58
Chaos Warriors 57
Dark Elves 57
Chaos Warriors 56
Empire 56
Vampire Counts 56
Daemons of Chaos 56
Orcs and Goblins 56
Dark Elves 55
Chaos Warriors 55
Empire 55
Empire 55
Orcs and Goblins 55
Vampire Counts 52
High Elves 52
Dwarves 52
High Elves 52
Empire 52
Bretonnia 51
Orcs and Goblins 51
Dark Elves 51
Lizardmen 50
Ogre Kingdoms 49
Lizardmen 49
Orcs and Goblins 49
Chaos Dwarves 48
Chaos Warriors 47
High Elves 46
Bretonnia 45
Chaos Warriors 44
Skaven 44
Beasts of Chaos 43
Dark Elves 42
Ogre Kingdoms 41
Vampire Counts 41
Skaven 40
Wood Elves 40
Wood Elves 40
Orcs and Goblins 39
Chaos Warriors 38
Dark Elves 38
Dark Elves 37
Empire 37
Beasts of Chaos 36
Dwarves 36
Chaos Warriors 31
Ogre Kingdoms 28
Empire 28
Vampire Counts 20

joebretonnia
30-03-2009, 00:00
Hey kylek2235 what is the numbering system next to the armies? I have never played in a tournament. I see only 2 entries for Bretonnia are they not considered a favorable tournament army?

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 00:11
That is the total number of battle points achieved by each player. It doesn't include painting, sports, etc. The overall scores can be found on their website. http://www.lonewolfgt.com/

At one point, Brets were a very favorable army, but with the growing number of units with special rules like Always Strike First, Regeneration, Stubborn or Unbreakable (or armies that are entirely one or more of these three), they've really dropped on the power pole. Brets can't blow through units like they could before, and they almost always lose battles of attrition. Daemons and Vampire Counts being regular Touny leaders (armies that are entirely Unbreakable) doesn't help much either. At least that's my guess. Tournaments from the ladder half of last year had about the same number of Brets as well.

soots
30-03-2009, 00:53
Very clear to me:

Lizardmen
Daemons
VC
Dark Elves

W0lf
30-03-2009, 00:58
I simply dont get why people keep putting lizards above daemons...

Daemons
VC
DE

HE or Lizards

EvC
30-03-2009, 01:08
Well, maybe not in that order, but Lizards are definitely up there.

Bac5665
30-03-2009, 01:23
Daemons
VC
DE
Brets

The Brets are a distant fourth, and, while its true they struggle against the lists above them, they still rock anything below.

Lizards are a contender to knock Brets off the list though. I'm still on the fence about the power level of the New Lizzie book. We'll have to see.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 01:43
Daemons
VC
DE
Brets

The Brets are a distant fourth, and, while its true they struggle against the lists above them, they still rock anything below.

Lizards are a contender to knock Brets off the list though. I'm still on the fence about the power level of the New Lizzie book. We'll have to see.

is the Brets sarcastic? or are you serious?

I havent seen them win a single game where I am vs. any of the 7th ed armies but it could be generalship.

fubukii
30-03-2009, 02:04
hmm a top ten without 890489048409 daemon players the internet community calls HERSEY!!!!! Unpossible

Vampire Counts 96
High Elves 95
Daemons of Chaos 88
Dark Elves 86
Daemons of Chaos 84
Dark Elves 80
High Elves 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Dwarves 78

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lord Malorne
30-03-2009, 02:09
I would say its Daemons and dark elves with third onwards open, as DoC and VC are consistently top and the armies play really really well and are easy to exploit (I play VC's) after them I would dare (oh, I dare ) say its open with the rest as the rest do seem to play well with each other though of course certain builds will beat certain builds and some will be placed low and other higher, but DoC and VC's are TBH, the top dogs.


hmm a top ten without 890489048409 daemon players the internet community calls HERSEY!!!!! Unpossible

Vampire Counts 96
High Elves 95
Daemons of Chaos 88
Dark Elves 86
Daemons of Chaos 84
Dark Elves 80
High Elves 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Warriors 80
Chaos Dwarves 78

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha funny man.

Ultimo ninja
30-03-2009, 02:13
Whoa, dwarves didnt do to hot in that tourney..... yet they can pose quite a problem for woc players, who seem to have done pretty well.

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 02:50
The upper VC armies were all Doggy Deathstar lists. They knocked off a few of the upper tier Daemons, which is why Daemons have a "poor" showing. The upper WoC lists, which includes Jordan Brauns, were all similiar Gateway armies. The upper Dark Elf lists I believe all had the Cauldron of Blood (although I don't think any had Witch Elves or Executioners). The highest finishing High Elf army was a well balanced, no Star Dragon list. The other high high elf finishers were either all magic (one of which beat me) and Star Dragon lists.

The top Dwarf player I think was David Long. I think every Dwarf player had an Anvil.

The Ogre player that finished unusually high, ie not all the way at the bottom, is me.

Lord Malorne
30-03-2009, 03:18
Doggy deathstar?

fubukii
30-03-2009, 03:32
full unit of dire wolves, with regen banner and 4 vampire characters

trumps anything but a firestorm blade bloodthrister, or flamers i guess.

Dai-Mongar
30-03-2009, 03:45
full unit of dire wolves, with regen banner and 4 vampire characters

trumps anything but a firestorm blade bloodthrister, or flamers i guess.

Just knowing that people do that makes me want to cry... :cries:

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 05:00
Just knowing that people do that makes me want to cry... :cries:

You'd be amazed at what some people will do to win. You might not quite be so surprised to learn that their opponents weren't amused and tanked their comp scores to hell. No, I wasn't one of them. I played two WoC, Ogres, a 422 model Skaven army, and High Elves

Hopefully I'll have the opportunity to play against one of the Doggy Deathstar VC armies at Adepticon. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to knock one out of the running for Best General.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 05:03
full unit of dire wolves, with regen banner and 4 vampire characters

trumps anything but a firestorm blade bloodthrister, or flamers i guess.

I can think of alot of builds which would destroy that.

fubukii
30-03-2009, 05:14
true some other things that are good vs it are new salamanders, Flames of phoenix, beast cowers, Wall of nurgle builds, and probably a few other things. Overal its a good army and the death star is fairly cheap.

Kerill
30-03-2009, 05:25
I simply dont get why people keep putting lizards above daemons...

Daemons
VC
DE

HE or Lizards

I think it's just soots who puts lizards at the top.

Top 3:

Daemons
VC
DE

Next 3:
HE, lizzies and wood elves

then the rest...

Lord Malorne
30-03-2009, 11:27
Whats so good about the doggy deathstar? All the dogs do is bring outnumber to the table and IoN only gets you one more per casting, and vampires are not the most resilient to combat, very odd.

phoenixlaw
30-03-2009, 11:56
I'm also confused as to what the dogs add. I would think that they would get flanked and destroyed pretty easily.

W0lf
30-03-2009, 11:59
I think it's just soots who puts lizards at the top.

Yes in this thread, however i keep reading it in diffrent lizard threads.

Im not sure on the lizardmens power level as i havnt faced any competant lizardmen generals.

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 12:01
Whats so good about the doggy deathstar? All the dogs do is bring outnumber to the table and IoN only gets you one more per casting, and vampires are not the most resilient to combat, very odd.

-It's very mobile. It's an 18" fast cav unit that can be moved even further in the magic phase (not to mention increased in size exponentially). This means its extremely difficult to pin down and, because of its insanely large charge range, it can choose what units to charge.

-It's a very cheap unit, and outside of the large investment for characters, counts for little at the start of the game, so one cannot ignore the other 1000pts+ of the VC player's army to concentrate on it.

-It's very resilient. Battle starndard bearer with the Regen banner makes even a very humble unit a unit that is very hard to kill.

It does seem very unassuming because we're not talking about a hard as nails unit, just an extremely fast/durable one that gets to pick it's targets so it can avoid things like Unbreakable or stubborn immune to psych ones. I've read about it, but haven't seen it in action yet, but I like playing against VC, for some reason, and have an army that does historically well, so I look forward to the challenge.

Lord Malorne
30-03-2009, 12:06
Move 8 surely, then it would not be fast cavalry, the vamps are movement 6 and would only go upto move 8 with a steed, which IIRC has barding so its move 7 and as they do not have the fast cavalry rule the unit can't do that.

And it size cannot be increased exponentially as only one can be added per casting, so unless people are doing something wrong I can't see the use in a bulky medium movement unit that has only a 4+ save.

W0lf
30-03-2009, 12:15
if a character joins a unit with fast cav rule they benefit from it.

Doggy deathstar players take mundane steeds which come unbarded so are still M8.

It work because you charge and destroy the whole enemy front rank and outnumber. With M8 and vanhels you SHOULD be charging, with 20 or so hounds you SHOULD outnumber and with 4 vampires attacking you should be winning by ALOT.

Plus doggy deathstars usually have other units aswell.

Lord Malorne
30-03-2009, 12:17
Aaah, thanks for the clarification W0lf :).

soots
30-03-2009, 13:13
I simply dont get why people keep putting lizards above daemons...

Daemons
VC
DE

HE or Lizards

People havent figured it out yet. But Liz is above Daemons imo.

Chainaxe07
30-03-2009, 13:22
1) Lizardmen
2)DoC
3)Dwarves/WoC
4)High or Dark Elves

My personal record with lizzies (my new army) is very good, with 5 wins ws 1 defeat.
All of the guys in my gaming group are decent generals, or at least very experienced.
I am a kind of newbie, and i play since the late 80's...

Ixquic
30-03-2009, 13:42
I've always wanted to see a doggy deathstar list in action since I'm not sure what sort of stuff they have along with the deathstar or the vampire kits. I'm assuming the obvious autohitting lance along with red fury on the lord with maybe forbidden lore to guarantee vans dance, then dog raising abilities on the baby vamps. Either way it sounds hilarious but at the same time gimmicky as all hell. It still seems like it has some severe weaknesses to anything with flaming attacks though. One round of flamer shots will wreck it so you'd have to be really careful with positioning.

The term "Doggy Deathstar" just sounds funny though.

As fantasy is getting more and more about how much you can break your list then shove it on the table to wipe out your opponent as quickly as possible I've lost a good deal of interest lately. What's making Lizardmen so great right now? Is it just the ability to jam out a ton of Stegadons or is there more to it?

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2009, 13:53
Tomb Kings
Ogres
Orcs & Goblins
Beasts of Chaos

In no particular order.

Chainaxe07
30-03-2009, 14:05
As fantasy is getting more and more about how much you can break your list then shove it on the table to wipe out your opponent as quickly as possible I've lost a good deal of interest lately. What's making Lizardmen so great right now? Is it just the ability to jam out a ton of Stegadons or is there more to it?

Hi, well i can tell you why i love them: they play in every phase of the game.
IMHO this is a luxury no other army can boast.
They have some of the best characters around (spellcasting or not), extra solid troops that deal lots of s4 attacks, good cavalry, very good critters, cheap skirmishers and very nasty (though not cheap) flyers.
The cold blooded rule is also a welcome boost.
My other army is WoC, and i really love the models.
A very competitive army too, you can taylor your force to suit a particular enemy or just have an all round one (good 4 tournaments) but, unsurprisingly enough, it will be a force that will mostly rely on its insanely good core troops rather than fancyful characters, exotic warmachines or fantasmagorical spellcasters.
With lizzies you get a bit of everything, and they are surely better at producing a "balanced" force.
Actually i think they have no rivals in this field.

O&G'sRule
30-03-2009, 21:18
Orcs and Goblins 74

Dark Elves 38

Vampire Counts 20

You'd think that was impossible reading the rubbish on here

jax40kplyr1
30-03-2009, 21:50
Actually if you would be suprised O&G'sRule - there were some pretty crappy players there. Get your VC general bingo'd in the first turn or 2 doesn't leave alot of options for them.
Was going to go to Lonewolf but had work unfortuneately.
Some stats though from Lonewolf (these are averages from all the different players)
Most played armies: Dark Elves, then VC, then Chaos Warriors
Best Generalship: Chaos Daemons, then High Elves, then Chaos Dwarves
Best Sportsmanship: Beasts of Chaos, then Bretonnia, then Ogre Kingdoms
Best Painted: Chaos Dwarves, then Tomb Kings, then Beast of Chaos

Of course, the larger groups had the high and low players figured in, which drew down their scores overrall, while the groups that were small (Chaos Dwarves had 2) weren't as affected. Couple of things though that can be inferred:

The most winning armies came from Chaos Daemons, VC and Dark Elves. The best sportsmanship armies came from the armies which did the worst in winning: Bretonnia, Beasts and Ogres. Coincidently, the worst sportsmanship scores were for Chaos Daemons and VC.

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 21:51
Funny thing about that VC army..... it wasn't a VC army. It was a WoC army. I played against it. Nice guy.

One of the Dark Elf players down there is a friend of mine who was using a Lokhir Corsair list, which didn't have Lokhir in it because of the No Special Characters rule. That and these were his first games in years.

The O&Gs list was either the nearly all chariot list (very awesome Road Warrior coversions!) or the Wyvern, two Giant setup.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 21:51
-It's very mobile. It's an 18" fast cav unit that can be moved even further in the magic phase (not to mention increased in size exponentially). This means its extremely difficult to pin down and, because of its insanely large charge range, it can choose what units to charge.

-It's a very cheap unit, and outside of the large investment for characters, counts for little at the start of the game, so one cannot ignore the other 1000pts+ of the VC player's army to concentrate on it.

-It's very resilient. Battle starndard bearer with the Regen banner makes even a very humble unit a unit that is very hard to kill.

It does seem very unassuming because we're not talking about a hard as nails unit, just an extremely fast/durable one that gets to pick it's targets so it can avoid things like Unbreakable or stubborn immune to psych ones. I've read about it, but haven't seen it in action yet, but I like playing against VC, for some reason, and have an army that does historically well, so I look forward to the challenge.

bad stuff about the doggie DS I dont like:
~doggies are easily shot out from underneath you, potentially even all 18+ in one solid shooting phase due to T3, No AS, and flaming ranged attacks.
~only 1 doggie/ION, they are considered cav.
~doggies are not hitty by any stretch
~doggies cannot carry banners..sad doggy
~doggies will never move more than M8 not M9 in the DS configuration
~a hoarde of doggies led by vampires looks uninspiring to me

+s:
~fast, 16" charges
~reforming is invaluable
~can get them past their starting number via summon ability, 25+ doggies!
~backed by loadstone can be more sturdy on the IONs

Ive thought about it alot and there are other more all-commers way of going with the VCs.

soots
30-03-2009, 22:00
Lizardmen - Ill give you guys a hint who havent figured it out yet

- Have you seen what happens when your whole army takes 4D6 S5 hits, NO armor save every turn with NO chance to dispel. Thats better than a 15+ to cast irresistable force spell going off twice a phase.
- How many good units do you have? How many stegadons can the opponent have to tie them up?
- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.
- They have the highest leadership in the game by a country mile (equivalent to 9-11)
- Their main caster can cast every spell with a half-powerstone (1D6 power dice) for FREE and come with a 4+ ward, and has the best LOS in game while remaining hidden and practically unbreakable and possibly a 2+ ward ontop of that.
- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.
- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game.

Vs Daemons and VC? EoTG will put a hole in these armies. Skinks/stegs will shoot down any behemoths or they can have assassins with the best magic weapon char killer in the game. Terror/fear is negated by their very high leadership and their ability to win combat with ease. Stegadons will be complete rock anvils to their hammers units (cavalry, saurus, krox). Terradons will keep flamers honest.

kylek2235
30-03-2009, 22:02
bad stuff about the doggie DS I dont like:
~doggies are easily shot out from underneath you, potentially even all 18+ in one solid shooting phase due to T3, No AS, and flaming ranged attacks.
~only 1 doggie/ION, they are considered cav.
~doggies are not hitty by any stretch
~doggies cannot carry banners..sad doggy
~doggies will never move more than M8 not M9 in the DS configuration
~a hoarde of doggies led by vampires looks uninspiring to me

+s:
~fast, 16" charges
~reforming is invaluable
~can get them past their starting number via summon ability, 25+ doggies!
~backed by loadstone can be more sturdy on the IONs

Ive thought about it alot and there are other more all-commers way of going with the VCs.

Agree 100%, but I can't deny how effective it was. It took down some pretty good players.

As for the M8 not M9, it was really really early when I typed this up.

Walls
30-03-2009, 22:06
Why the hell would they put them in with direwolves?!

To me the deathstar is a fighty vamp, drakenhoff wight grave guard banner of barrows unit.

Chainaxe07
30-03-2009, 22:17
Lizardmen - Ill give you guys a hint who havent figured it out yet

- Have you seen what happens when your whole army takes 4D6 S5 hits, NO armor save every turn with NO chance to dispel. Thats better than a 15+ to cast irresistable force spell going off twice a phase.
- How many good units do you have? How many stegadons can the opponent have to tie them up?
- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.
- They have the highest leadership in the game by a country mile (equivalent to 9-11)
- Their main caster can cast every spell with a half-powerstone (1D6 power dice) for FREE and come with a 4+ ward, and has the best LOS in game while remaining hidden and practically unbreakable and possibly a 2+ ward ontop of that.
- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.
- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game.



Well, i agree 100x 100!
You last sentence, in particular, made me wanna play them in the first place.
Up to a few weeks ago i was basically playing just WoC, very very cool but also very very assault oriented, with far fewer tricks and gubbins and an emphasis on core troops rather than monsters or characters (sorcerers in particular). Lizards, on the other hand, have it all. While i was painting it i also developed a strange affection for the big toad himself.

Wolfmother
30-03-2009, 22:28
1) Deamons
2) vamps
3) dark elves
4) high elves

nough said really

Wolfmother
30-03-2009, 22:30
i went to devouror at the weekend and it was deamons all over the show lizzies found their place generally behind the top four i just named

ScalySkin
30-03-2009, 22:52
Lizardmen - Ill give you guys a hint who havent figured it out yet

- Have you seen what happens when your whole army takes 4D6 S5 hits, NO armor save every turn with NO chance to dispel. Thats better than a 15+ to cast irresistable force spell going off twice a phase.
- How many good units do you have? How many stegadons can the opponent have to tie them up?
- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.
- They have the highest leadership in the game by a country mile (equivalent to 9-11)
- Their main caster can cast every spell with a half-powerstone (1D6 power dice) for FREE and come with a 4+ ward, and has the best LOS in game while remaining hidden and practically unbreakable and possibly a 2+ ward ontop of that.
- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.
- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game.

Vs Daemons and VC? EoTG will put a hole in these armies. Skinks/stegs will shoot down any behemoths or they can have assassins with the best magic weapon char killer in the game. Terror/fear is negated by their very high leadership and their ability to win combat with ease. Stegadons will be complete rock anvils to their hammers units (cavalry, saurus, krox). Terradons will keep flamers honest.

You do realise that the list you are proposing is impossible within the 2250 points limit, not to mention the amount of flank attacks you are likely to take with your army consisting almost all stegadons. EoTGs are also very vunerable to challenges with the priest having a very squishy T2. Skinks and stegadons may be good at shooting down behemoths, but a stegadon and razadons are the only things with a good range, so the lizards are almost always going the be charged by the behemoth before they can shoot it down.

I am taking a stab in the dark here, but maybe the person who made this post had a daemon army and suffered one or two massacres against a good lizard player. (possibly at a tournament)

EoTGs do STR 4 hits, not STR 5 (unless facing undead or daemons), and any army who can't manage to take out one or two of them with character challenges, cavalry charges etc in order to be taking 4 burning alignments at once needs a new general.

The old blood on carnosaur doesn't do 9 STR5 attacks, it does 5 STR5 attacks and the carnosaur does 4 STR7 attacks which become 5 when frenzied and cause D3 wounds, but you can lead it around the battlefield once it is frenzied. He is one of the best melee characters, but certainly not the best, the may come in at around 4th or 5th best.

I play lizards and I agree they have a very strong army, but the main reason they are doing so well is because people aren't used to them yet and they are a good all-round army, so many competitive variations can be taken. They are not over-powered and are very well balanced, they just give a good general some great tactical options and have a very good balanced list, which is why they would do quite well in the tournaments.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 23:07
Lizardmen - Ill give you guys a hint who havent figured it out yet

- Have you seen what happens when your whole army takes 4D6 S5 hits, NO armor save every turn with NO chance to dispel. Thats better than a 15+ to cast irresistable force spell going off twice a phase.
- How many good units do you have? How many stegadons can the opponent have to tie them up?
- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.
- They have the highest leadership in the game by a country mile (equivalent to 9-11)
- Their main caster can cast every spell with a half-powerstone (1D6 power dice) for FREE and come with a 4+ ward, and has the best LOS in game while remaining hidden and practically unbreakable and possibly a 2+ ward ontop of that.
- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.
- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game.

Vs Daemons and VC? EoTG will put a hole in these armies. Skinks/stegs will shoot down any behemoths or they can have assassins with the best magic weapon char killer in the game. Terror/fear is negated by their very high leadership and their ability to win combat with ease. Stegadons will be complete rock anvils to their hammers units (cavalry, saurus, krox). Terradons will keep flamers honest.


Jesus..the way you put it sounds scary.

Bac5665
30-03-2009, 23:57
Lizardmen - Ill give you guys a hint who havent figured it out yet

- Have you seen what happens when your whole army takes 4D6 S5 hits, NO armor save every turn with NO chance to dispel. Thats better than a 15+ to cast irresistable force spell going off twice a phase.
- How many good units do you have? How many stegadons can the opponent have to tie them up?
- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.
- They have the highest leadership in the game by a country mile (equivalent to 9-11)
- Their main caster can cast every spell with a half-powerstone (1D6 power dice) for FREE and come with a 4+ ward, and has the best LOS in game while remaining hidden and practically unbreakable and possibly a 2+ ward ontop of that.
- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.
- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game.

You last two points are literally and unarguably wrong. And point 3 is misleading at best. And point 1 is ridiculous on at least 3 levels.

Saurus Cav are terrible compared to any other cav in their point range. For 5 points less apiece, Dragon Princes are about as good, if not better; Brets are better in almost every way for considerably less cost; I shouldn't have to mention Chaos Knights.

Terradons are terrible warmachine hunters. Beyond Goblins, there is not a single crew in the game that they blow through, and Dwarves will beat them every time. I'm not saying that Terradons are terrible; just that the idea that they are the best warmachine hunters (or really, good at anything other than bait-and-flee) shows a complete lack of undestanding of the game.

As to your first point: 1, 4 EoTGs is over the top, and, just like many abusive builds, real warhammer players wont play it. 2. Unless you are retarded, at no point will 4 EOTGs each affect your entire army. 3, even if someone took 4 EOTGs, they would have no other army, so it would be the easiest thing ever to pick the T2 skink off the top and bye bye EoTG, hello overpriced monster that can't deal damage! Even Ogres would have an easy time with a 4 EoTG list.

Yes Saurus have a lot of attacks. This is good, because they can't hit the broad side of a barn. I conceed that they are great. But they are expensive, at least for core, you you will not see 3 large units of them. If there are 3+ units of saurus, they will be 10-12 and not that hard to deal with.

Skinks are not nearly as good as you claim. If they are moving enough to keep you from charging them, they aren't shooting 20 shots at you, if any at all.

In fact, this is the biggest problem with your assesment. Nearly every one of your points requires the exclusion of every other one of your points. So, even if all your points are correct (and they're not) Lizardmen would still be UBER BROZENZ!!! at only one thing. Two at most. Compared to Daemons, VC, DE, having one crazy thing per build is not that bad.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 00:07
That lizardmen breakdown is ridiculous.

Sure if pts are no object you can fill that in and out of context it sounds harsh.

Untill you realise;

A) EOTGs are like 400 pts and CAN DIE.
B) The Lizard magic phase < VC + Daemons as other then the slaan (who will churn out ~7 dice himself) their magic is medium-lackluster
C) Sarus warriors still get killed by Uber-Knights (who are ever-more common) the same as most M4 infantry.

the 1st point was hilarious. Yes if you place your whole treemonic legion/daemons/vampire army within 7" if 2 EoTGs you will get punished. In the same way if i take a infantry army with no magic defence and walk up the board backwards i will get punished :wtf:

pcgamer72
31-03-2009, 00:20
Daemons
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Lizardmen

I haven't been a part of too many games against the new Lizardmen yet, but I believe they are at least 4th at this point. I am positive I don't think they are better than Daemons though.

scoopdeta
31-03-2009, 00:52
WHat type of dark elf lists have you all seen floating around the circuit. Just curious what the composition typically comprises of. Are they generally considered cheesy like Daemons and VC...I consistently see them in the top three behind the aforementioned two...but they seem to get alot less criticism for being packed with cheese. Just curious, seeing as they don't rank too bad in sportsmanship either. What really makes them part of the top three and what are the lists looking like (to summarize my question)?

W0lf
31-03-2009, 01:16
Abusive DE list;

Pendant lord
Ring of hotek
Dragon that has Hatred (and pendant lord ontop)
Hydra banner cold ones
ASF black guard
dual Hydras
lots of shades/DRs

The best thing is you can fit all this in at 2,250.

Dungeon_Lawyer
31-03-2009, 02:02
DoC, VC, DE, are the top 3 no question---however a highly skilled WE general can break into the top 3 as well, climbing as high as perhaps 2nd to DoC.

Next Tier: HE & Lizzies (lizzies may rise however --their disregard all 6's can really damper IoN spammers and DE magic)

Next Tier: Everyone else

Bottem Tier: Ogres.

fubukii
31-03-2009, 02:06
i think lizzys are a close contender for a top 3 spot, but doc vc and de contend with each other pretty well up top.

soots
31-03-2009, 02:31
You do realise that the list you are proposing is impossible within the 2250 points limit, not to mention the amount of flank attacks you are likely to take with your army consisting almost all stegadons. EoTGs are also very vunerable to challenges with the priest having a very squishy T2. Skinks and stegadons may be good at shooting down behemoths, but a stegadon and razadons are the only things with a good range, so the lizards are almost always going the be charged by the behemoth before they can shoot it down.


What are flank attacks going to do to stegadons? they really shouldnt lose combat, and if they do it doesnt matter to them. The priest has the armor save of a knight, and even if you do kill him, youre stuck in combat with a T6 stubborn, terror causing creature for just about the whole game. Skinks have 6" move and 12" range. The giant bow has 6" move and large range. There is no excuse for not getting shots off against a behemoth.



I am taking a stab in the dark here, but maybe the person who made this post had a daemon army and suffered one or two massacres against a good lizard player. (possibly at a tournament)

Nope, never played daemons or against the new liz. But I look at its weaknesses and try and think of ways to kill ANY lizardmen unit, and they ALL involve throwing units at them that are far more expensive.



EoTGs do STR 4 hits, not STR 5 (unless facing undead or daemons), and any army who can't manage to take out one or two of them with character challenges, cavalry charges etc in order to be taking 4 burning alignments at once needs a new general.

Actually, if a lizardmen cant get off atleast one blast he needs a new general. You cant dispel it, you cant kill it in time. The Skink chief is the hardest to kill hero level mage in the game. Stubborn, immune to panic, Terror, armor save of a knight, riding on top of a beast (great defense vs ranged attacks) that can rip off multiple S6 attacks. Sure you can field something to kill it, but the liz player can have multiple EoTG, and you really do have to field a specific unit to kill it which cuts the legs off the rest of your army.

One turn. March 12" into the middle of your army. Rip of on average 14" crater of doom before the combat phase. Thats 19" range on average.

I think its futile argueing about EoTG, its indeed a bit too nasty. The spell should have been dispellable and less powerful.



The old blood on carnosaur doesn't do 9 STR5 attacks, it does 5 STR5 attacks and the carnosaur does 4 STR7 attacks which become 5 when frenzied and cause D3 wounds, but you can lead it around the battlefield once it is frenzied. He is one of the best melee characters, but certainly not the best, the may come in at around 4th or 5th best.

No really, 9 S5 attacks. 5 base, 2 from weapon, 1 from shield, 1 from frenzy (though this may not be best idea), and they come to boot with T5, W3, 3+ AS. And then you can count another 4 attacks from something stronger than a bloodthirster but still isnt a large target. Who is better than him? Chaos lord and thats about it, vamp lord has 4 attacks and costs an arm and a leg and has many liabilities. Oldblood comes with full plate equivalent and Ld 11.



I play lizards and I agree they have a very strong army, but the main reason they are doing so well is because people aren't used to them yet and they are a good all-round army, so many competitive variations can be taken. They are not over-powered and are very well balanced, they just give a good general some great tactical options and have a very good balanced list, which is why they would do quite well in the tournaments.

I agree, they are a very strong army.
I havent played my friend who plays Liz yet, but he cracked up in laughter when he read the new book and i shook my head in disgust.

Hrogoff the Destructor
31-03-2009, 03:24
What are flank attacks going to do to stegadons? they really shouldnt lose combat, and if they do it doesnt matter to them.

A stegadon is completely worthless in close combat if it didn't charge. If a 100 point night goblin unit charges it in the side, the stegadon will lose.


Actually, if a lizardmen cant get off atleast one blast he needs a new general. You cant dispel it, you cant kill it in time. The Skink chief is the hardest to kill hero level mage in the game. Stubborn, immune to panic, Terror, armor save of a knight, riding on top of a beast (great defense vs ranged attacks) that can rip off multiple S6 attacks. Sure you can field something to kill it, but the liz player can have multiple EoTG, and you really do have to field a specific unit to kill it which cuts the legs off the rest of your army.

An engine has 3 strength six attacks at a nonexistant weaponskill. Killing a hero on top is as simple as taking a hero on a mount with a lance, charging a stegadon, and issuing a challenge.

jason
31-03-2009, 03:56
Top Tier: Any army I'm playing
Second Tier: DOC
Third Tier: VC
Fourth Tier: DE

Of course I'm just kidding around, but haven't we established the order of army power already? I need some meatier threads.

Dokushin
31-03-2009, 05:11
Re: Stegadons. I hate to make my army seem powerful, because I love playing the underdog, but here's how it is.

You are not going to get the charge off on a M6 monster with an infantry block, ever. It's got speed and maneuverability on you. It's got either a bolt thrower or giant blowpipes to eat up infantry with. It's a terror causer to boot, so good luck charging with those night goblins.

The only things that threaten Steggies on the charge are cavalry and fliers. A Stegadon being charged by infantry is so staggeringly unlikely that I don't think bad generalship could do it -- it would just have to be an acceptable loss. And so Stegs actually don't have to worry too much about static combat res, other than they can't charge in the front. Unless there is another one, or it has the Chief with warspear.

Now that Stegs are so easy to work into the list from so many angles, a countercharge from another steg is resoundingly likely, and when you lose combat to US20 terror after having one turn to try to do 5 wounds to T6 3+ save, they aren't going to look weak.

But assuming you do win combat, the Stegadon is Stubborn on Cold-blooded Ld 6. That means he passes his break test 68.1% of the time (that's about like LD 8). You can't autobreak him b/c he's a terror causer. If he's within range of a BSB, that means he passes 89.8%, which is a fancy way of saying "pretty much every time." If he has a Skink Chief on him, he's stubborn cold-blooded 7. That means he passes 80.6% of the time (leadership 9), or if he's within range of a BSB (or is one) 96.2% of the time. IF you catch a steg on his own without a character away from the BSB, there's a chance it won't break, but 7 times out of 10 it will hold, and that's the best case scenario.

When I saw the new book, I almost literally couldn't believe that they made Stegs Ld 6. The only really reliable way to deal with them before was to break them and run them down, and even on Cold-blooded 5 you just had even odds. They've really, really made them hard to deal with -- and increased their availability significantly. I don't care about taking special stegs -- you can buy them as mounts without taking a slot. Two stegs are ten times better than one because of their ability to cover each other, threatening devastating countercharges.

You're in all likelyhood going to have to wipe them out. And while 4 S5 or 3 S6 + 5 S3 attacks may not be completely awesome, it's still a threat while you're trying to chip away at it. And in the meantime, you can bet money that the LM general is plotting a way to save his 200+ point monster chariot warmachine.

Walls
31-03-2009, 05:22
I still don't get how a Doggy Deathstar would be any good.

soots
31-03-2009, 05:32
A stegadon is completely worthless in close combat if it didn't charge. If a 100 point night goblin unit charges it in the side, the stegadon will lose.


No thats a chariot. A general who makes a silly mistake and gets his stegadon charged in the rear (which shouldnt happen anyways), still has his stegadon tying up the unit that somehow managed to get that "Should be instant win" flank charge that he so tactically executed.
What unit should be able to survive a full RnF in the flank? A Steg can and is one of the few units in the game that can!



An engine has 3 strength six attacks at a nonexistant weaponskill. Killing a hero on top is as simple as taking a hero on a mount with a lance, charging a stegadon, and issuing a challenge.

WS3 is still usually 4s to hit, and at S6 its going to hurt.

This is the issue right here, you have to commit a hero to take down a priest. And not only that, but the chances arent in your favor:
- Mounted hero will have M7 vs M6. You have 2" to work with, and ONE lizardmen magic phase might see the EoTG wipe out the hero with no armor saves allowed and cannot be dispelled. So you have to be aggressive.
- If you somehow manage to get within range in your turn while alive (near impossible to without copping atleast 1 burning alignment). Note if you misjudge, your hero is without doubt dead from steg charge
- You take a terror test while charging.
- You gotta roll to hit and wound (easy)
- 5+ armor save for the priest and any other wards they may decide to take (liz have plenty of defensive talismans)
- Steg hits back and should wound atleast once at S6.
- Steg gets +1 outnumber bonus
- Steg if draws this combat, will undoubtedly win next turn unless hero can wound the T6 steg without a lance (6s to wound and then 3+ armor save).

Stegs are idiot proof tonka trucks. The first thing i checked when the book was released was to see if theyre still stubborn. I was shaking my head when i read stubborn, and they went up in LD, and they are more common in Special, Rare and free character mount slots. Units like this should be very rare on the battlefield and a good general should be able to negate these units by sending in cheap sacrificial units. But unfortunately, stegs are too common and you cant win by just negating them.
take treemen for example, where they can only field 2, and you can tie them down and win elsewhere. Liz however, can have more than 2 and they have 10x more hammer units than Wood elves.

soots
31-03-2009, 05:37
I actually agree with Dokushin who posted before i did

PARTYCHICORITA
31-03-2009, 06:18
Aren't EotG like 400pts each?

I agree with almost everyone else with the whole
1) DoC
2) VC
3) DE
4) I have no idea. I guess it's either HE(with their dragons+princes build), empire (2 stanks+dragon) or maybe LM (allthough the only really scary unit there is the EotG and i agree with most posters here, it's rather vulnerable)

Hrogoff the Destructor
31-03-2009, 06:25
No thats a chariot. A general who makes a silly mistake and gets his stegadon charged in the rear (which shouldnt happen anyways), still has his stegadon tying up the unit that somehow managed to get that "Should be instant win" flank charge that he so tactically executed.
What unit should be able to survive a full RnF in the flank? A Steg can and is one of the few units in the game that can!

Any stubborn unit can take flank charge, especially if they are immune to psychology. A stegadon is no difference in that sense. If anything, a steg is one of the worse stubborn units to get charged in the side.

I don't care if it's stubborn and cold blooded, it's leadership 6 for crying out loud. It's not like it's unbreakable. A battle standard bearer can make them rather hard to take down, but the same goes for every other stubborn unit.

If the person takes a lot of stegs, it'll is easy to bait and then charge them even with movement 4 infantry (playing WoC can make you good at this). I've beaten them this way, and also lost them this way. Hell, I seriously lost an engine to a night goblin unit because it got the charge in the front (thanks to the goblin spell that allows you to move a unit 2d6).


WS3 is still usually 4s to hit, and at S6 its going to hurt.

It's 3 attacks. I'd be more scared of executioners or white lions who at least have a decent weapons skill and hatred (well, executioners anway).

Before doomongering, you might actually want to try facing the army. It sounds far worse than it really is.

With good rolling EotG can be scary amazing, but with bad rolls it can be equally worthless.

Kerill
31-03-2009, 06:37
I've been giving one of the WOC players in our group a repeated drubbing at 1500 points with a balanced list due to one EOTG, and got to thinking about how to beat them, my EOTG tears chaos knights to shreds, cannot be charged easily due to the protecting skink cohort and any frenzied units will get led astray even if they are screened by hounds. Then I realised how to do it- by not attacking them.

Lizards are indeed a powerful army but there is a simple answer to the stegadon list that no-one has mentioned:
Deploy 10" in max and shoot/magic them to death. Have some hard hitters (knights etc.) but just move them into positions to countercharge any remaining stegadons. Thats three or 4 turns of guaranteed shooting (terradons can be easily dealt with if you are playing purely defensively, the worst they can do is drop rocks on the crew, and even that isn't easy if you deploy right- they can't charge without LOS to the war machines which means you can see them first and charge them with light cav. 5+ ward on the engine only goes so far.

The only armies that don't have this option are VC and ogres, although ogres have the tyrant who can cut down a stegadon a turn. You could even have two such killers- tyrant with beastkiller and great weapon, bruiser with tenderiser, both will put stegadons down with contemptuous ease. Ironguts can take stegs apart at well.

Magic heavy VC only need one killy character and lots of zombies, even 2D6 S5 hits isn't a worry when you can raise 50 more a turn.

It's still a cheesey army but doesn't compare with other cheesey builds.

Slann and double engine is another dirty build, but costs a LOT of points:
Slann, extra PD, knows all spells, becalming (to stop enemy IF), couple of scrolls and whatnot, bsb, warbanner- 500 points
Engine 1 (tepok, war drums)- 450 points
Engine 2 (naked)- 390 points

1340 points.

Then you'll need some TG for the slann- 300 points

260 points left.

3 cohorts for core: 150
110 points left- lets say 4 terradons.
We could trim the TG though and maybe save a few points here and there, maybe spare another 150 points.

Stand back and shoot it to death.
WOC and BOC will have trouble unless WOC is very magic heavy but dragon ogres can take down engines without difficulty. BOC will need a Khorne doombull list (a popular enough build) or 20 chariot list (a build no-one is evil enough to take).

Khorne daemons can thwack the living **** out of stegadons with a thirster and butcher engine priests with almost anything (but especially heralds). Tzeentch daemons can reduce them to piles of goo by the third turn (4th if he has 6 scrolls or so). Great wall of nurgle has a 4+ regen and 5+ ward against the (non-flaming) burning alignment.

Characters on stegadons really should use up an extra hero slot though (so should the slann) but it's not the end of the world.

Just don't charge up the middle of the battlefield against these one trick pony armies.

But against a multi-steg army the question isn't how many good units you have to take them down (although most armies will have one unit that can take down the character on toop), its how many 80 point rock lobbers, 100 point great cannons and 35 point spear chukkas you have. Multiple stegs will beat any unit (or any group of units) sent to take them down, but if one or two of them drops the rest are easy to take down.

Any flying nasty beasty or GD can rip an all stegadon army to shreds because D6S4 hits just don't do that much. First turn- fly down a flank, second turn hit one of the rear stegadons. Maybe kill it in your turn, maybe in your opponents, fly back to the flank/rear and do it again.

Overall I can see lizards causing a few shifts in the metagame, but don't see them as having lists as brokenly overpowered as VC, DE and Daemons. Some tailoring is needed to deal with the hardcore cheese builds but you don't need to write a list just to take down lizards.

Balanced lizards are a very powerful army.

Spear saurus are very good for the points, but are not unbreakable, also lizzies now lack a chariot killer (carnosaur aside) that can hunt chariots, and a solid unit+chariot will break your typical 18 spear saurus unit. Chariots are also pretty handy against character ridden stegadons- 1.5 S5 hits on character+crew and steed attacks. Lose combat, run 3D6" (escape) rally, do it all over again.

This is without even brining fear causers into it.
4 Khorne minotaurs against 18 saurus- saurus autobreak first round
6 Blood knights against them- saurus autobreak first round
6 Khorne knights- saurus autobreak first round
5 Ironguts with warbanner- saurus autobreak first round
20 WS7 GG with semi fighty character and GW- saurus autobreak first round
4 Ushabti- saurus autobreak first round
5 night gobline archers- saurus don't autobreak here obviously.
Lizardmen are a damn solid army and have a decent chance of coping against almost any army if they ahve a good range of units but, to be honest, most armies can cope against lizards. The cheese builds that some armies will really struggle against, other armies will laugh at.

soots
31-03-2009, 06:40
Saurus Cav are terrible compared to any other cav in their point range. For 5 points less apiece, Dragon Princes are about as good, if not better; Brets are better in almost every way for considerably less cost; I shouldn't have to mention Chaos Knights.


Causing fear for cavalry is extremely powerful. Empire pay 50pts for a banner of this that only makes them cause fear on the turn they charge. Also having Ld 9-10 makes them the best in the game in that category as well as T4 and a 2+ armor save. They are definately very good cavalry and a cut above dragon princes.




Terradons are terrible warmachine hunters. Beyond Goblins, there is not a single crew in the game that they blow through, and Dwarves will beat them every time. I'm not saying that Terradons are terrible; just that the idea that they are the best warmachine hunters (or really, good at anything other than bait-and-flee) shows a complete lack of undestanding of the game.

The drop rocks rule is spectacular. Theyre super mobile Khemri Charioteer unit that will destroy any machine + crew easily. Anything else is a bonus for 30 pts.



Yes Saurus have a lot of attacks. This is good, because they can't hit the broad side of a barn. I conceed that they are great. But they are expensive, at least for core, you you will not see 3 large units of them. If there are 3+ units of saurus, they will be 10-12 and not that hard to deal with.

And you need to devote way more points and strategies to overcome the "afterthought saurus" core units lizardmen generals field. 150pts for 21 S4 attacks. I dont see many armies taking this out without spending atleast 200+pts.



Skinks are not nearly as good as you claim. If they are moving enough to keep you from charging them, they aren't shooting 20 shots at you, if any at all.


this works better in practice. You cannot chase after skirmishing M6. Theyll only be moving when theyre at risk of getting charged by some mistake by you. All other times, its going to be 20 poisoned ranged attacks whilst being march blocked for 70 pts. Bargain.

21 S4 attacks for 150pts or 20 poison ranged attacks for 70pts.

The dilemas of a lizardmen generals core choices.



In fact, this is the biggest problem with your assesment. Nearly every one of your points requires the exclusion of every other one of your points. So, even if all your points are correct (and they're not) Lizardmen would still be UBER BROZENZ!!! at only one thing. Two at most. Compared to Daemons, VC, DE, having one crazy thing per build is not that bad.

Stegadon frequency is broken.
EoTG is broken.
Lizardmen magic, melee characters and core unit choices are extremely powerful.

fubukii
31-03-2009, 06:40
I still don't get how a Doggy Deathstar would be any good.


you have 4 vampire characters, and a doom wolf in the front rank. meaning you cant target the wolves in combat u can only hit chars. All with a 4+ regen. The unit soaks up a good amount of fire and doesnt die easily bc of invo spam. its extremely fast and manueverable. it doesnt lose combat due to the Cr from the vamps and is a high us so auto breaks units.

soots
31-03-2009, 07:01
3x10 skinks shooting at a bloodthirster will kill it in ONE shooting phase.

Not bad for 210pts of core.

Also i wouldnt be throwing knights at an EoTG. You basically gotta kill it from range

Kerill
31-03-2009, 07:46
3*10 skinks can kill a bloodthirster in one shooting phase only if:
a) the BT doesn't have an armour gift
b) The player running the BT is remarkably stupid to plonk the bloodthirster there and :
c) The player running the BT not only managed to plonk it somewhere stupid, he did it in such a way that all the skinks were far enough away not to have to take terror tests.

12 spear saurus with champ btw is 156 points, some units to beat them?
Roll up roll up, get your matchups here:
6 Knightly order knights ladies and gentlemen, with a standard comes in at the bargain price of only 154 points, causes 3 wounds on the charge, takes one in return and wins the combat folks. Second round doesn't look so good though with 1 wound apiece and the likelihood of a drawn combat, but for a few points more a musician would solve that. For the bret players that cheeky lance of 6 knights with standard and free champion even gets a rank bonus.

What's that you are grunting my green friend in the back? Greenskin offers, why certainly sir:
21 orc boyz, FC 156 points.
Yes they may only kill 2 saurus on the charge my friend but but that FC, US and rank bonus will more than outweigh the 3.6 dead orcs meaning a win by over 2.6!
You could even drop the boss for spears (157 points) and strike first every round against the dwindling numbers of those poor slow saurus.
You want to bash em quickly sir?
Well how about 12 savage orc boyz with 2 choppas and including a boss sir? For only 135 points you can bash them to death swiftly whislt winning every combat round.

Yes you? The spiky armour man, WOC you say. Hmm how about 8 forsaken, 12 points cheaper than the saurus at 144 points and 5.33 on average kills per round sir, 8 if you get the 3 on the D3+1 attacks. You'll suffer three casualties per turn sir and he will have US and a rank first round but his unit will cease to exist before yours

You, the pointy headed ponce, HE is it madame? Or sir, I can never tell with the long blonde hair.
9 swordmasters with a bladelord, don't worry all of them can get into b-t-b and are only 153 points. 6.3 kills sire, although 3.4 of your friends will die to attain it. But worry not the round is won and you'll kill 4.7 more next round leaving only 1 saurus left alive to strike back.

That's all for today ladies and gentlemen- or is it?, no I have one more unit to show you, a unit available to EVERY ARMY IN THE GAME folks unless you speak French, here is it:
The Bull Rhinox with heavy armour and an iron fist. Terror on the charge with an average number of impact hits this beauty will kill 4.7 saurus on the charge and suffer only 0.77 wounds in return. Second round you have autobreak. Did I mention this little 161 point beauty works wonders against characters mounted on stegadons but for only half the price?

Walls
31-03-2009, 08:08
you have 4 vampire characters, and a doom wolf in the front rank. meaning you cant target the wolves in combat u can only hit chars. All with a 4+ regen. The unit soaks up a good amount of fire and doesnt die easily bc of invo spam. its extremely fast and manueverable. it doesnt lose combat due to the Cr from the vamps and is a high us so auto breaks units.

Ehhhh... I dunno. It certainly would be NO faster then any other unit, nor any more maneuverable. The characters stop the unit from being fast cav. Wolves being used as ablative wounds? Only zombies are more squishy. A smart player would target the doom wolf first... easy kill and replaced by another. Rest on a vampire. Your unit strength will be nill unless you're running big blocks of wolves... which in that case is completely silly. Why not do the exact same build with actual infantry. The wolves make absolutely no sense to me.

Vampires are my main fantasy army. I can't fathom how this is good. It's also the biggest bucket of cheese. Deathstars of any kind, really.

Kerill
31-03-2009, 08:29
Ehhhh... I dunno. It certainly would be NO faster then any other unit, nor any more maneuverable. The characters stop the unit from being fast cav. Wolves being used as ablative wounds? Only zombies are more squishy. A smart player would target the doom wolf first... easy kill and replaced by another. Rest on a vampire. Your unit strength will be nill unless you're running big blocks of wolves... which in that case is completely silly. Why not do the exact same build with actual infantry. The wolves make absolutely no sense to me.

Vampires are my main fantasy army. I can't fathom how this is good. It's also the biggest bucket of cheese. Deathstars of any kind, really.

Characters don't stop a unit being fast cavalry, they move along with the unit, but can' use fast cavalry shooting rule (not important here but...).

Walls
31-03-2009, 08:41
Ah true, just as long as they are all mounted. I just checked it out.

Of course, fast cav gets no rank bonuses. Against tough units, flaming attacks, etc, CR would be a huge issue.

Dungeon_Lawyer
31-03-2009, 09:16
This is without even brining fear causers into it.
4 Khorne minotaurs against 18 saurus- saurus autobreak first round
6 Blood knights against them- saurus autobreak first round
6 Khorne knights- saurus autobreak first round
5 Ironguts with warbanner- saurus autobreak first round
20 WS7 GG with semi fighty character and GW- saurus autobreak first round
4 Ushabti- saurus autobreak first round
5 night gobline archers- saurus don't autobreak here obviously.
Lizardmen are a damn solid army and have a decent chance of coping against almost any army if they ahve a good range of units but, to be honest, most armies can cope against lizards. The cheese builds that some armies will really struggle against, other armies will laugh at.

Scar vets on cold ones in the saurus units---fear is nullified,problem solved
Its so good.

Chainaxe07
31-03-2009, 09:51
Saurus Cav are terrible compared to any other cav in their point range. For 5 points less apiece, Dragon Princes are about as good, if not better; Brets are better in almost every way for considerably less cost; I shouldn't have to mention Chaos Knights.

C'mon, are u serious? Ok, they are worse than chaos knights but hell, who is'nt?
But to seriously compare dragon princes with them in terms of efficency, whell i cant agree less.




Terradons are terrible warmachine hunters. Beyond Goblins, there is not a single crew in the game that they blow through, and Dwarves will beat them every time. I'm not saying that Terradons are terrible; just that the idea that they are the best warmachine hunters (or really, good at anything other than bait-and-flee) shows a complete lack of undestanding of the game.


Again i suppose you have not been playing my version of warhammer.
Terradons are the only flyiers that can do some real damage on charge, and are by far the most veratile in the game. Not cheap though, i'll give you that.



Yes Saurus have a lot of attacks. This is good, because they can't hit the broad side of a barn. I conceed that they are great. But they are expensive, at least for core, you you will not see 3 large units of them. If there are 3+ units of saurus, they will be 10-12 and not that hard to deal with .

???
Saurus can hit pretty well, and the rain of above average strenght attacks thei can produce will batter down any regular infantry except, perhaps, very lucky chaos warriors.
When you couple this with above average T, very respectable AS and good LD you see they can compete with anyone.
Also Saurus characters are brutal.

soots
31-03-2009, 10:42
Oh Man not only Did Kerril pwn me with his "descriptive" text, he had hard facts to back it up. Im embarassed.

Ok, maybe SOME units can beat a minimum size saurus unit. But theyre some of the best core troopers in the game. definately in the realm of VERY powerful (but not broken as ive stated)

selone
31-03-2009, 11:02
C'mon, are u serious? Ok, they are worse than chaos knights but hell, who is'nt?
But to seriously compare dragon princes with them in terms of efficency, whell i cant agree less.





Again i suppose you have not been playing my version of warhammer.
Terradons are the only flyiers that can do some real damage on charge, and are by far the most veratile in the game. Not cheap though, i'll give you that.



???
Saurus can hit pretty well, and the rain of above average strenght attacks thei can produce will batter down any regular infantry except, perhaps, very lucky chaos warriors.
When you couple this with above average T, very respectable AS and good LD you see they can compete with anyone.
Also Saurus characters are brutal.

Pegasus knight's don't do damage on the charge :)?

Dokushin
31-03-2009, 15:31
I think part of it is the balance of points availability in a LM army.

Every time I play someone without a lot of experience fighting Lizardmen, the game always goes something like this:

1) My Skink Skirmishers run up and around, and shoot billions of darts
2) My Skinks march up and throw javelins
3) He moves around for a bit trying to get the skinks, finally charges, eats a brutal S&S, breaks them, and either runs them down or they rally next turn (goto 1)
4) My actual army moves in and romps around
5) At end of game he thinks he's hurt my army significantly by killing 3 or 4 70 point units.

Skinks are incredibly, incredibly versatile for their points. 50 points gets you a flanker with a rank bonus and poison javelins, on M6 with Ld6 coldblooded. 70 points gets you movement 6 skirmishers with a 12 inch poison doubleshooter. Let me run over that again -- 70 points gets you M6, skirmishing, 12 inch poison doubleshots.

Both units are just incredibly useful. 50 points of rank skinks can shoot, flank, and redirect in an army that loves for the enemy to get redirected (yes, Stegadons again). 70 points of skirmishers can dart around the board, shoot just about anything besides cavalry to death, take a charge, flee and rally, and are cheap enough to screen anything with.

And so, game after game, people put a lot of effort into killing the useful buggers, and then find out that they're worth less than a hundred points apiece.

Bac5665
31-03-2009, 15:31
3x10 skinks shooting at a bloodthirster will kill it in ONE shooting phase.

Not bad for 210pts of core.

Also i wouldnt be throwing knights at an EoTG. You basically gotta kill it from range

You are simply wrong. Completely, comically irrefutably wrong.

Alright, lets look at the skinks. First, all assume based on the given point cost that you meant blowpipers. Second, getting all three units in short range against a Bloodthirster is basically impossible. No competent player will place a bloodthirster withing 6 inches of three units of skinks. It simply won't happen by anyting but random movement, and then, it would still be quite rare. So, to get the skinks in shooting range you have two choices: you can move them 6" and get most of the skinks (if not all of them) at long range, having moved, so it's only 30 shots, which will not one shot the Bloodthirster. The other option is to march close to the Bloodthirster so that, next turn, if the BT is stupid and doesn't move, if the skinks don't panic, they can fire like you describe.

In short, yes, 30 skinks firing at point blank range will, on average just barely kill the BT. But that scenario is so unlikely that it's not a reasonable comment. In NO normal course of gameplay will 30 skinks take down a BT. It would require a terrible DoC player and a LM player who is both briallant and lucky.

And really, you don't think even Empire Knights would rape an EoTG?!?! You're nuts. Alright, 6 empire Inner Circle Knights with full command (less points than the steg remember.) No challanges; have the champ and on other knight attack the skink priest and he dies. the other 4 do about 1 wound to the steg (a little more with horses, but not a full wound.) Now the EotG is dead, and the steg is hurt and has lost combat. It may or may not hold. This is using the worst heavy cav in the game. So I don't understand what possable reason you have for not wanting to win.


@ everyone not Soots,

I don't disagree that LM are powerful and a solid army. I agree that saurus are great and that terridons are great at bait-and-flee and that the EotG is awesome. I'm simply pointing out that they have weaknesses and that the situations Soots keeps pointing out as OTT are mostly impossible.

captainramoz
31-03-2009, 15:41
What´s vc
By the way dwarves and elves are da best
dwarves with their runes gromnil armours an t4
and elves well do I have to explain why?

EvC
31-03-2009, 16:03
No challanges; have the champ and on other knight attack the skink priest and he dies. the other 4 do about 1 wound to the steg (a little more with horses, but not a full wound.) Now the EotG is dead, and the steg is hurt and has lost combat. It may or may not hold. This is using the worst heavy cav in the game. So I don't understand what possable reason you have for not wanting to win.

Priest says "challenge", and you're reduced to either 2 attacks from champ, or 4 from unit. So you take the 4 attacks, and hit the Skink. Yeah, he's probably dead. But it's certainly not a sure thing. I've bundled into an EotG with 5 Chaos Knights before, managed just a single wound on the skinky-winky, then the Steg did a wound back and my Knights were autobroken. Lucky? A bit, yeah. Would I throw the Knights at the Engine again? Well, yes. But most smart players will simply screen the Engine, so that while you may get to hit it, you'll only do so after an overrun... and so suffer the Engine's wrath.

Bac5665
31-03-2009, 16:59
Almost nothing is a sure thing. I'm just saying that the important thing is killing the priest, and most of the time, the unit should be able to do that. Sure, it will go wrong some small amount of the time, but such is the nature of any dice game.

Wolfmother
31-03-2009, 18:27
3x10 skinks shooting at a bloodthirster will kill it in ONE shooting phase.

Not bad for 210pts of core.

Also i wouldnt be throwing knights at an EoTG. You basically gotta kill it from range

if the deamons player is bad enough to be in range of three units of skins and the skinks pass all there terror

engines of the gods go down quite easily only 5 wounds 6 flamers should sort one out a turn

W0lf
31-03-2009, 19:05
Flamer will do roughly;

~ 21 shots (3.5x6)
~ 13 hits (should be on 3's with planning + large target)
~ 3 wounds (alright cudnt be arsed to do maths but its 2 wounds to steg but could hit crew so... ^^)

Wont kill one at all.

Dokushin
31-03-2009, 19:09
if the deamons player is bad enough to be in range of three units of skins and the skinks pass all there terror

engines of the gods go down quite easily only 5 wounds 6 flamers should sort one out a turn

Yeah, only 5 T6 wounds with a 3+ save that get randomized on useless crew with a 2+ save. You wound on 6s if you hit the steg, and there's going to be a hefty armor save regardless. Your princess is in another castle.

fubukii
31-03-2009, 20:04
Ehhhh... I dunno. It certainly would be NO faster then any other unit, nor any more maneuverable. The characters stop the unit from being fast cav. Wolves being used as ablative wounds? Only zombies are more squishy. A smart player would target the doom wolf first... easy kill and replaced by another. Rest on a vampire. Your unit strength will be nill unless you're running big blocks of wolves... which in that case is completely silly. Why not do the exact same build with actual infantry. The wolves make absolutely no sense to me.

Vampires are my main fantasy army. I can't fathom how this is good. It's also the biggest bucket of cheese. Deathstars of any kind, really.

yes they are squishy until you realize the entire unit of 20 dire wolves has a 4+ regeneration save!, they also dont need ranks with 4 combat characters attacking.

soots
31-03-2009, 21:54
@everyone quoting my skink vs Bloodthirster example.

My example of 3x10 skinks taking down a bloodthirster in one turn isnt a game plan.

its a possibility and definate threat. Someone posted how a bloodthirster would have a field day vs multi-steg lists. And I posted that lowly 70pt units of skinks are real threats against bloodthirsters, and that bloodthirsters would have to be avoiding these 70pt core units.

So you cant just say Bloodthirster vs stegs = easy win=steg army arent broken, because guess what multi-steg armies take to fill core requirements? the exact amount of skinks needed to kill a bloodthirster - the ultimate monster - in one turn of shooting. And no one denies that. Whether they do that in one turn isnt the emphasis here, though it is a powerful point, the emphasis is they are real threats and a bloodthirster isnt going to be half as effective vs lizardmen. Big monsters are usually taken down by a wound here.. a wound there... a wound here.. and then some finishing attacks. It just so happens Lizardmens version of "here and there" is bloody everywhere :)

I still uphold my statement that Lizardmen are a top 3 army and in the next 2-3 years theyll be cleaning up tournies. Only time will tell but im sure it will hold true, theyre the best army at taking down the big 2 (VC + Daemons) with their super game high LD, their insane attacks vs VC muppets and their plethora of anti-fear options+EoTG vs Daemons

CaliforniaGamer
31-03-2009, 21:59
I still uphold my statement that Lizardmen are a top 3 army and in the next 2-3 years theyll be cleaning up tournies. Only time will tell but im sure it will hold true, theyre the best army at taking down the big 2 (VC + Daemons) with their super game high LD, their insane attacks vs VC muppets and their plethora of anti-fear options+EoTG vs Daemons

Will be VERY interesting to see how Adepticon goes this weekend. Very interesting.

soots
31-03-2009, 22:06
Will be VERY interesting to see how Adepticon goes this weekend. Very interesting.

Well ive read several different Lizardmen tourny lists and I havent seen one lizardmen army list that is exploiting any of their strengths. They dont have to look cheesy on paper to be effective, but at the same time, you can field an average lizardmen army by not taking in any of the better combinations (which should do more than 50% anyways)

I have a feeling theyll be circling the top 20, and thats with very ordinary fluffy lizardmen lists with no intent on truely winning.

Of course, someone can surprise me and field an instant GT winner lizardmen list and prove my point in one tourny ;)

CaliforniaGamer
31-03-2009, 22:09
Well ive read several different Lizardmen tourny lists and I havent seen one lizardmen army list that is exploiting any of their strengths. They dont have to look cheesy on paper to be effective, but at the same time, you can field an average lizardmen army by not taking in any of the better combinations (which should do more than 50% anyways)

I have a feeling theyll be circling the top 20, and thats with very ordinary fluffy lizardmen lists with no intent on truely winning.

Of course, someone can surprise me and field an instant GT winner lizardmen list and prove my point in one tourny ;)

there is unsubstantiated rumor that a gaming group in California has an undefeated (claim: undefeatable, bah) Lizardmen list built around a novel DS-type formation and they are taking it amongst a few people to Adepticon. Hence why this weekend will be interesting.

Crovax20
31-03-2009, 22:38
Hmm, so what would an empire artillery piece do to a stegadon? Great cannon, hellblaster volleygun etc.. Wouldn't a couple of armies be able to just gib the steggies? I mean they can't be that powerful can they?

Although I saw a woodelf army have quite a bit of trouble trying to kill the things. So what you guys reckon?

Zoolander
31-03-2009, 22:40
I still don't get how a Doggy Deathstar would be any good.

It's not. Other than the maneuverability, taking a unit of 20 skeletons with the same set up and a 4+ AS is better all the way around, considering ION will raise d6 models instead of 1.

LKHERO
31-03-2009, 23:32
Ah true, just as long as they are all mounted. I just checked it out.

Of course, fast cav gets no rank bonuses. Against tough units, flaming attacks, etc, CR would be a huge issue.

Vamp Lord w/ Lv.3, Dread Knight, Red Fury, Dread Lance, Walking Death, Crown.
Vamp BSB Drakenhof w/ Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred.
Vamp w/ Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, Balefire Spike, Scroll.
Vamp w/ Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, Blood Drinker.

Insert X amount of Doom Wolves here.

All Vamps have 2+ armor saves and carry Lances. The Lord has a 4+ ward but is stupid. The Lord has 4 attacks at S7 that auto hits and each wound generates an extra attack. One Vamp has a lance that's flaming and 1 dispel scroll because this unit is in combat in round 2. The other Vamp has a Sword that regens wounds and can re-roll misses. The entire unit also counts as fast cav so free reforms for everyone!

EvC
31-03-2009, 23:38
Walking Death aint cumulative, but the rest makes it a nightmare!

LKHERO
31-03-2009, 23:40
Walking Death aint cumulative, but the rest makes it a nightmare!

Oh no? I thought it was.

Oh well, Infinite Hatred for everyone!

W0lf
31-03-2009, 23:41
IIRC walking death does stack now. My book isnt with me but im sure that was a 6th thing they didnt carry over.

Note; i dont use walking death :P

Lord Dan
31-03-2009, 23:43
Daemons
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
Lizardmen

Wholeheartedly seconded.

LKHERO
31-03-2009, 23:44
IIRC walking death does stack now. My book isnt with me but im sure that was a 6th thing they didnt carry over.

Note; i dont use walking death :P

If so, then Walking Death for everyone except for the one with the Blood Drinker!

Can't beat +4 combat res before the combat machine even starts lol.

I just checked the book and Walking Death reads as the following:
The presence of one or more Vampires with this power adds +1 to their side's combat resolution

EvC
31-03-2009, 23:46
IIRI (If I recall incorrectly) I will eat my hat. It doesn't stack, you can trust me ;)

Lord Dan
01-04-2009, 00:02
IIRC walking death does stack now. My book isnt with me but im sure that was a 6th thing they didnt carry over.


Walking Death, pg. 83

"The presence of one or more vampires with this power in a combat adds +1 to their side's combat resolution."

EDIT: Beat me to it, LK!

W0lf
01-04-2009, 00:10
I stand corrected.

only time ive used walking death was on a vampire with Dreadknight/walking death, BSB and warbanner.

Worked quite well.

Xynok
01-04-2009, 00:13
I think if you play to win with a Doggy Deathstar army or anything as cheesey as that you really are just a plonker. It's a game at the end of the day, it's meant to be fun! Tournaments are different I can accept but really... just stop being a tool with your massively overpowered, completely out of character armies and get in the warhammer spirit!

shame skaven did so poorely =[ Nobody cares about the humble rats... (oh please be fixed with new army book!)

Dungeon_Lawyer
01-04-2009, 00:31
there is unsubstantiated rumor that a gaming group in California has an undefeated (claim: undefeatable, bah) Lizardmen list built around a novel DS-type formation and they are taking it amongst a few people to Adepticon. Hence why this weekend will be interesting.

What do you mean when you say "DS-TYPE" formation? a deathstar formation?


You mean the 1 eotg, 1 chief bsb with skanvenpelt banner, slann, saurus with spears death star? Its gonna get wrecked by baiters cause of the frenzy.

CaliforniaGamer
01-04-2009, 00:48
What do you mean when you say "DS-TYPE" formation? a deathstar formation?


You mean the 1 eotg, 1 chief bsb with skanvenpelt banner, slann, saurus with spears death star? Its gonna get wrecked by baiters cause of the frenzy.

Death Star formation yes. But if the rumors are to believed, LM are capable of THE Death Star, like the actual SOB from Star Wars that blows up planets. I have no clue what it is but would guess shove a ton of EOTG/Stegs in with Cavalry and charge forward....could just be BS though, will have to wait for Fri to find out.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 00:50
Lizard death star?

Isnt that something like;

3x 10 rnf skinks

70 TG with FC + warbanner
Slaan with bsb and unit causes fear in said unit
TG special char

Dungeon_Lawyer
01-04-2009, 00:52
You know I actually think the biggest hazard that is going to hamper Lizardmen deathstars in Tourneys is ironically, going to be skink heavy lizard lists. All those poison shots are going to make mincemeat out of steg heavy lists.....

CaliforniaGamer
01-04-2009, 00:53
Lizard death star?

Isnt that something like;

3x 10 rnf skinks

70 TG with FC + warbanner
Slaan with bsb and unit causes fear in said unit
TG special char

Oh, I was thinking it was EOTG related DS but you are correct, it could be this.

PS: for the above you could also throw in a skink pr on EOTG steg for added effect.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 00:57
That unit is one hell of a **** to get VPs from lol.

CaliforniaGamer
01-04-2009, 01:03
you could actually go:
2250 Pts - Lizardmen Roster - Unnamed

Slaan Mage-Priest (1#, 515 Pts)
1 Slann Mage-Priest (Battle Standard Bearer) @ 515 Pts
General; Battle Standard Bearer
1 Cube of Darkness @ [40] Pts
1 Dispel Scroll @ [25] Pts
1 Focus of Mystery @ [0] Pts
1 The Becalming Cogitation @ [50] Pts
1 The Focused Rumination @ [50] Pts
1 Unfathomable Presence @ [50] Pts

Skinks (10#, 50 Pts)
10 Skinks @ 50 Pts
Hand Weapon; Javelin & Shield; Aquatic

Skinks (10#, 50 Pts)
10 Skinks @ 50 Pts
Hand Weapon; Javelin & Shield; Aquatic

Skinks (10#, 50 Pts)
10 Skinks @ 50 Pts
Hand Weapon; Javelin & Shield; Aquatic

Temple Guard (93#, 1573 Pts)
92 ~[(^One or more selected options present a potential usage conflict]×~[(#]Temple Guard @ 1573 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour; Shield; Scaly Skin; Scaly Skin
1 Revered Guardian @ [30] Pts
Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armour; Shield
1 Totem of Prophecy @ [50] Pts

Total Roster Cost: 2238

LMAO....

to me though it isnt that Deathstar-ish, not killy enough for me.

LKHERO
01-04-2009, 01:04
Lizard death star?

Isnt that something like;

3x 10 rnf skinks

70 TG with FC + warbanner
Slaan with bsb and unit causes fear in said unit
TG special char

Terror, actually, since the Slann can take it as a Discipline. He can also take +1 die, know the entire Death lore, and take Becalming, then spam Darkness for any unit that comes into contact with it.

selone
01-04-2009, 01:17
You'd have to be very bold to take a unit that big to a tourny ;)

silashand
01-04-2009, 03:23
As far as Battle Points are concerned:

Daemons
Vampire Counts
Dark Elves
...
High Elves?

Not so different than a few years ago when it was:

Skaven
Wood Elves
Brets

Good to see nothing really changes... ;)

Cheers, Gary

Lord Dan
01-04-2009, 03:55
You'd have to be very bold to take a unit that big to a tourny ;)

Not if it's unbreakable.

Zoolander
01-04-2009, 17:43
Wow lists like that make me want to quit the hobby. Good thing I avoid tournaments like the plague.

Somerandomidiot
01-04-2009, 18:31
Wow lists like that make me want to quit the hobby. Good thing I avoid tournaments like the plague.

While I'd never run a list like this myself (doesn't seem like it'd be enjoyable for myself, or my opponent, much less that I don't play Lizardmen), it's definitely an interesting mental exercise to figure out just how you'd deal with something like this. You'll never become a better player if you don't push yourself, and armies like this are a great place to take general strategies for dealing with strong units and test them to the breaking point.

Bac5665
01-04-2009, 18:59
We'll, yes and no. 3 unit armies of unbreakable troops actually aren't that interesting, because there is basically no strategy on either players part that will make much of a difference. It will come down to army build and dice rolling almost every time, since there isn't much you can do to that unit but either charge your hardest hitters in and let the dice fall where they may, or just shoot at it until you get half points/kill it all somehow. There really is nothing else to do, and neither of those will work all that well against the better deathstars.

So no, deathstars are not interesting for me as a tourney player, and as a TO, I wouldn't let anyone take such a list to any tourney I ran.

That said, there are other builds that can be interesting to see how you'd take them down, such as most daemon builds (these are much less prone to DSs.)

Eulogy2
01-04-2009, 19:21
Causing fear for cavalry is extremely powerful. Empire pay 50pts for a banner of this that only makes them cause fear on the turn they charge. Also having Ld 9-10 makes them the best in the game in that category as well as T4 and a 2+ armor save. They are definately very good cavalry and a cut above dragon princes.

i dont have my book infront of me, but im almost sure its LD 8. other knights dont come with stupidity either. are they good? yes. will they fail the stupid test at the worst possible time? you betcha. and besides skinks, the entire army almost always attacks last with Int-1 or 2. you really should play LM before you boast how over powered they are.

Seville
01-04-2009, 19:32
Edit: *Sorry - nevermind*

ShadowLion
01-04-2009, 20:12
i dont have my book infront of me, but im almost sure its LD 8. other knights dont come with stupidity either. are they good? yes. will they fail the stupid test at the worst possible time? you betcha. and besides skinks, the entire army almost always attacks last with Int-1 or 2. you really should play LM before you boast how over powered they are.

I think he was referring to the combination of cold-blooded and LD8 which is statistically as good as Ld 9-10 with two dice.

And while it is true that the list has low initiative, chargers still attack first most of the time (stupid High Elves).

I'd say the Lizardmen in the new book are in the mix of top armies. They can be fast and hard hitting while still being able to get some decent magic defense. They could also go a heavy magic version.

I run an oldblood list and have done well with it. As I get used to some of the changes (like not charging through skinks with Kroxigors) I will stop making mistakes of trapping my own units and feel they will be even more competitive.

sulla
01-04-2009, 21:14
That unit is one hell of a **** to get VPs from lol.
Another one I'm facing at the moment is a bunch of cold one riders with the sun standard joined by an ancient war steggy BSB with the war spear and scar vet with shield of the mirrored pool. Usually kept in front of the engine of the gods. That means, -1 or 2 to shooting, rebounds almost all magic missiles, stubborn and rerolls break tests. Slower than cav and a carnosaur but hits with a hell of a whack and smashes anything it charges.

Rest of the army is packed with shooters to whittle down my poor elves...

Man I hate the cold blooded rule. I haven't panicked anyone in 2 games vs them yet. Another vitually immune to psych army.

Eulogy2
01-04-2009, 21:36
I think he was referring to the combination of cold-blooded and LD8 which is statistically as good as Ld 9-10 with two dice.

And while it is true that the list has low initiative, chargers still attack first most of the time (stupid High Elves).

I'd say the Lizardmen in the new book are in the mix of top armies. They can be fast and hard hitting while still being able to get some decent magic defense. They could also go a heavy magic version.


typically the things in the LM list that hit slow and hard, outside of cold ones, have 4 inch move and usually will be charged.

im not saying LM isnt a good army, they definitly are, but coming onto a forum and trying to tell people how OP they are when you have never played them has 0 credibility and is pointless.

soots
01-04-2009, 22:27
im not saying LM isnt a good army, they definitly are, but coming onto a forum and trying to tell people how OP they are when you have never played them has 0 credibility and is pointless.
Your right about making assumptions before playing them. But I said the same thing about Dark Elves before people figured it out and look at them now, ive played enough WFB to know how competitive an army is by looking at them on paper by comparing them to other armies.
They just look brilliant on paper and while I try to figure out how to kill each unit it looks like I cannot beat certain army lists unless I field a very specific army list to counter it. The worse thing is Lizardmen can field different variations of these hard lists and pound in you in any phase of the game. IMO, they are the most flexible army in the game now.
A balanced Liz list is competitive. But a liz player can put together a few nasty combos and make it taste like cheese without it looking like cheese.

Also, There are lizardmen players popping up that are undefeated after several games and are looking at challengers - definately not a coincidence imo.

Like I said before, only time will tell.

ShadowLion
02-04-2009, 15:32
Back on topic, I'd say the top armies are first Demons and VC. This is mainly because of their ability to take much of the randomness out of the game. Bad dice tend to hurt these armies less. In addition, they can both get a strong offensive and defensive magic phase without penalty to their combat effeciveness.

Next I'd put High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen in no particular order. I know more about the HE and Lizzie lists as they are my armies, but I think any of these three can make lists that can compete in all phases of the game or dominate two of four (combat, magic, shooting, movement) without taking too much of a hit in the others.

Wolf 11x
02-04-2009, 17:25
I think Lizardmen are a powerful, well-rounded army. I've been playing them for almost 7 years now (since I was 13); I didn't jump on any bandwagon.

With that said, I feel they're currently overrated. Stegadons aren't as powerful as people seem to think (Warspear aside), and EotGs are really the only thing arguably "broken".

I feel Wood Elves are more powerful than Lizardmen and have a similar style.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 17:39
I feel Wood Elves are more powerful than Lizardmen and have a similar style.

Except if both armies fought WE would get raped sunny-side up style.

Wolf 11x
02-04-2009, 17:45
I face a WE player regularly and he does just fine against me. He moves through terrain more easily, and WE shooting is a gigantic advantage vs. LM. I have nightmares about Strangleroot and the HODA as well.

The 5+ Forest Spirit Ward Save is annoying. My only magic weapon is on my Oldblood.

Bac5665
02-04-2009, 17:47
Except if both armies fought WE would get raped sunny-side up style.

It would dramatically depend on the lists. A saurus heavy build, or a Skixigor build would get owned by the WE. Lizards basically need magic or a carnosaur to deal with treeman, and magic isn't actually that effective. WE can easily dance around LM and hide in the woods sniping skinks and saurus and get a minor win, which is what most top WE builds do anyway. LM don't really have a good answer for that, except for mass Teradon's and that's a pretty extreme, non-take-all-commers LM list, that I would never run.

505
03-04-2009, 01:23
Im sorry but I have to post this....everytime I read "can you name current top 4 tournament armies" I want to write

1. Susan
2. Bill
3. Hank
and
4. Bob

Lord Dan
03-04-2009, 02:14
Im sorry but I have to post this....everytime I read "can you name current top 4 tournament armies" I want to write

1. Susan
2. Bill
3. Hank
and
4. Bob

Why? I don't get it.

bob_the_small
07-04-2009, 00:25
How are Lizards better than daemons and why did any1 bother putting brets there.. as far as im concerned its :

Daemons
VC
DE
Lizardmen/High Elves/Tomb Kings(At a stretch, i mean if you get a really good TK player, who knows what he's doing with the right list... he will wipe the floor with most things...)

Isoulle
07-04-2009, 03:48
Just out of curiosity what are the current tourney WoC lists running? I'm hearing a lot of talk of them being good here but nothing about the WoC lists...

W0lf
07-04-2009, 20:50
Gateway+Buboes spam with khorne knights

Rubicon
07-04-2009, 21:10
1. Daemons
2. Vampires
3. Dark Elves
4. Lizardmen
5. Warriors
6. High Elves

blackjack
07-04-2009, 21:29
Also having Ld 9-10 makes them the best in the game in that category as well as T4 and a 2+ armor save. They are definately very good cavalry and a cut above dragon princes.


Their LD is 8 the same as dragon princes (albiet a Cold 8), they are stupid which more than makes up for it, They are slower, and more expensive and are not fire proof for the extra +1 toughness.

Put it this way in a strait up battle 6 princes = 180pts will kill 5 cold ones = 175pts on the charge. Given the superior movment and lack of stupid the princes will most likely get that charge.

My favorite compare is cold ones to Flesh Hounds. Even if the Cold ones get the charge they will most likely LOSE to an equal number of points of Flesh hounds (though it is close)! Given Flesh hound superior mobility and lack of stupid Cold ones will not be getting that charge very often in any case and this does not even touch on MR 3 for the hounds.

Over all I tend to agree cold ones are over priced by about 5pts.

blackjack
07-04-2009, 21:39
If you take into consideration the lore of nurgle (bubos) and the excellent spechial character choices, WOC can make supperior army lists to Lizzards. Lizzards are new and so are having thier hey day. Unlike DOC and VC, this perception of Lizzards as an over powered army will not last. Though they are solid.

Rubicon
07-04-2009, 21:59
WoC are a more of a point and click army than any other list. The lack of flyers, missile troops or skirmishers means that they have reduced flexibility that basically gives you magic ad combat (two phases) to work in. For that reason, I wouldn't place them ahead of Lizards. Having said that, Warriors do those two phases as well as anyone else, and as far as Combat goes, they are the best!

bob_the_small
07-04-2009, 21:59
My favourite WoC army was the Warrior Deathstar... 40 chaos warriors with 4 characters in, 2 of them special.( this was at devourer, it got infernal gatewayed...) LOL

Rubicon you dont think High elves are better than WoC... hmmmm?

BOB

selone
08-04-2009, 00:03
Isn't it still to early to tell how good LM will be?

Dexter099
09-04-2009, 04:50
Top 4:

1) Demons
2) VC
3) Dark Elves
4) High Elves, Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen. It really depends on the general here. I have drawn fairly consistantly with lizards and high elves before, and both were good generals.


- Every core unit has 21 S4 attacks, T4 and 4+ armor save. And if they dont, they have 20 Poison ranged attacks while paying for T2 and they can pepper you and run circles around you with skirmish and M6.

Except Chaos Warriors always beat Saurus, even without marks.


- Not only do they have one of the best casters, their melee lord is one of the best in game able to dish out 9 S5 attacks, and ride a mount that can kill monsters by itself without being a large target itself.

Except for his I and WS being rubbish compared to other lords. And any Chaos Dragon can eat a weaker Carnosaur.


- They have some of the best cavalry in the game as well as some of the best warmachine flying hunters and compete in every facet of the game."

Eugh... Best cavalry. Sure. I remember when I was playing with my friend's DE. I failed a stupidity test with my Cold Ones, and it was game. Stupidity means that they aren't that good, not to mention only S4 with spears, and Movement 7, and an unimpressive armor save for their points cost. (2+?)

Best Warmachine Hunters? No, Carrion win that one with their magical charges.


Saurus can hit pretty well, and the rain of above average strenght attacks thei can produce will batter down any regular infantry except, perhaps, very lucky chaos warriors.

No, Chaos Warriors are superior.


When you couple this with above average T, very respectable AS and good LD you see they can compete with anyone.

They lose when outnumbered by cheaper blocks of enemy foot troops , and can't beat demon or chaos warrior blocks.


Also Saurus characters are brutal.

No. My Chaos Lord always ends up dominating the enemy Saurus Lord.


3x10 skinks shooting at a bloodthirster will kill it in ONE shooting phase.

Not bad for 210pts of core.

Yes, and the Bloodthrister would have to be retarded for that to happen.


Also i wouldnt be throwing knights at an EoTG. You basically gotta kill it from range

I haven't read the special rules for the stegadon's crew, but I believe the skink priest since he is a mounted character would only get a +1 armor save for being on a monstrous mount.

And knights wouldn't need to attack the Skink Priest, they would kill the Steg anyways.


Scar vets on cold ones in the saurus units---fear is nullified,problem solved
Its so good.

Good idea, but you have to take stupidity checks every turn.


My example of 3x10 skinks taking down a bloodthirster in one turn isnt a game plan.

its a possibility and definate threat.

There's a higher possibility that my opponents will line his army up, let my ogres and chaos knights charge his first unit, panic them into the rest of the army, his entire army will flee, won't regroup, and then will run off the board.


Gateway+Buboes spam with khorne knights

Buboes spam is good, khorne knights don't work too well.

blackjack
09-04-2009, 06:02
Quote My example of 3x10 skinks taking down a bloodthirster in one turn isnt a game plan.

its a possibility and definate threat.


30 skinks double taping all in short range do an average of just less than 3 wounds to an armored Blood thirster (I have never seen a thrister without at least armor of khorne.)


60 shots, 10 poisons, against a 3+ armor and a 5+ ward = 2.22 wounds
60 shots with 4s and 5s htting = 20 hits, wounding on 6, against 3+ armor and 5+ ward = .74 wounds

Total 2.96 wounds


This assumes all 30 skinks are in close range and have not moved that turn.

soots
09-04-2009, 08:15
30 skinks double taping all in short range do an average of just less than 3 wounds to an armored Blood thirster (I have never seen a thrister without at least armor of khorne.)


...and 30 skinks double taping all in short range do an average just over 7 wounds vs a bloodthirster.

Point is, you would be genuinely aware that a fast 70pt core unit can hurt your ultimate mega-monster.

Wolfmother
09-04-2009, 11:08
soots u just got proved wrong in the post before they do just under 3 wounds

a squig
09-04-2009, 11:36
I haven't read the special rules for the stegadon's crew, but I believe the skink priest since he is a mounted character would only get a +1 armor save for being on a monstrous mount.

And knights wouldn't need to attack the Skink Priest, they would kill the Steg anyways.


they get a 3+ on a normal steg a 2+ on a acient stegadon

My stegs have often lasted 2 or 3 rounds vs chaos knights they are so good the only prob is Ld of 6 :(

Chainaxe07
09-04-2009, 13:51
Hmmm...well i am doing quite well with lizards, and am starting to be hated by my comrades :)
I suppose it is quite hard to tell if one army is definitely better than another one, and i suppose demons are quite close to the LM.
But a lot depends on the players in your area.
As an exemple let me say that the Dark Elves (that most guys rate as third or fourth), pendant, regen, dragonlords and all, are hardly felt as powerful, lets not even start with broken. I'd say aligned with asf HE, around the fourth/fifth position.
A more extreme exemple is VC, that almost everyone has as second most powerful force.
Round here they are considered absolutely weak, due to their new book not fitting anyone playing style.
The list itself can be annoying, as long as you hide your characters and go for the "tarpits" thing, but actually none of the four VC players we have (and none i met outside our community) likes it, so they perform a lot less effectively than most report on this board. I'd say they are definitely out from the top five.
On the other hand Dwarves are quite hard to beat, fielding characters that could slay the chaos gods themselves (all 4 at once), and gun heavy lists that tipically leave nothing but smoking holes where your army stood in one or at most two shooting phases. They are among the top 4 for sure, while i dont see many votes for them.
Same goes for WoC (that i play myself), that do quite well at killing anything in sight, due to the best core units in the game and sheer killy attitude.
Definitely up in the top five, i'd say top four, right above HE/DE.
Lizards and DoC are, typically, quite feared by anyone.
So, you see? Much depends on your buddies, though my impression also derives from several tourney experiences that go beyond my gaming group.
Cheers!

soots
09-04-2009, 14:10
soots u just got proved wrong in the post before they do just under 3 wounds

Thats when the Bloodthirster is equiped with the extra armor.
Standard Bloodthirster will take 7 wounds. but the point is, if youve read the thread, a bloodthirster cant run rampant vs a steg list because the core in the steg list is enough to be of a legitimate threat vs the bloodthirster.

popisdead
09-04-2009, 23:31
The fourth spot is pretty debatable, but the first three are the staple of every major tournament. .

only none are taking home the big price right now.

Dwarfs are almost always the most solid.

kylek2235
09-04-2009, 23:59
Daemons ran away with Adepticon, including the big prize unfortunately. A hardcore Dwarf gunline almost won, but then they re-added everything and then...... DAEMONS! It wasn't pretty. Battle point wise, it's almost always those three, but things get dicey when you throw in soft scores.

I'm still waiting on the results before I post a few break downs. Lizards were definitely NOT the winners there.

Eulogy2
10-04-2009, 17:36
Thats when the Bloodthirster is equiped with the extra armor.
Standard Bloodthirster will take 7 wounds. but the point is, if youve read the thread, a bloodthirster cant run rampant vs a steg list because the core in the steg list is enough to be of a legitimate threat vs the bloodthirster.

who doesnt put armor on a bloodthirster? as a LM player im not gonna have a naked old blood.

frankfurtjoe
14-04-2009, 17:01
As a total newbie to anything Warhammer, this has been a very useful read. I am trying to paint up a basic O&G army (never played a game yet) whilst at the same time trying to decide on a second, harder army should i ever get out there and war.