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LKHERO
30-03-2009, 20:20
As opposed to the traditional 2250.

Why is this?

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 20:23
I think the European lists are all 2K base. Kinda limiting in my opinion but does make for shorter games.

Malorian
30-03-2009, 20:24
Tournaments may be 2250, but 2000 is most common (in these parts anyway) as it's the smallest size that lests you use a lord.

Feefait
30-03-2009, 20:35
I think Malorian has it hit on the head there. Not only does it allow a lord, but that lord will normally, or potentially be dominating. Also, time constraints. 2250 means another unit or 2 and just that much more time. I tend to play a lot of 2k because of that very reason. Sometimes we say 2k no lords, but then you end up with even more limitations.

Grimmeth
30-03-2009, 20:37
As far as I'm aware 2000pts is the traditional (at least, in Europe), 2250 seems to be quite a recent phenomenon

O&G'sRule
30-03-2009, 21:13
2k is the traditional list, 2250 has come about recently as it allows a little more flexibility and was because games take a shorter time to play now so the 90 minute slot allowed for a 2k list in the past at tournaments can now be played in the same time with the slightly bigger list.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 21:44
almost everything in my area is 2250, I dont even ask anymore. Indy tournaments, GW official shop tournaments, friendly games, leagues, everything is 2250. Random dude you meet at Whole Foods who happened to be reading the latest issue of WD, 2250, you dont even ask. I wasnt aware there are areas in the States where people did 2000. /shrug

LKHERO
30-03-2009, 21:44
Are these tournaments everyone's talking about most in the European tournaments or the US GTs?

The Clairvoyant
30-03-2009, 22:14
i play 4000pt games.

2k lists are of no use to me whatsoever :D

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 23:08
i play 4000pt games.

2k lists are of no use to me whatsoever :D

how long do those take? 6 hours?

Modaavi
30-03-2009, 23:13
almost everything in my area is 2250, I dont even ask anymore. Indy tournaments, GW official shop tournaments, friendly games, leagues, everything is 2250. Random dude you meet at Whole Foods who happened to be reading the latest issue of WD, 2250, you dont even ask. I wasnt aware there are areas in the States where people did 2000. /shrug

I am from the West Coast of the US, and lived in both New Mexico and Utah. Both places 2k is the norm and has been for as long as I have played, nearly 15 years. Not sure why CA has moved so aggressively to 2250, although I do like it personally.

swarmofseals
30-03-2009, 23:14
Well, back in 5th edition 2k seemed to be the norm in the US... although I didn't actually play that much... so naturally when I started up again the first list I made was a 2k list =)

Ultimate Life Form
30-03-2009, 23:16
Just the opposite. When I started coming here, I wondered why everyone had 2250 pts lists. Everything´s 2000 pts here. So the US need their special King Size standard again, also see mile etc. Supersize me!

Okay, that was a little polemic, but I mean no offense, just spicing things up a bit. But seriously, what´s so great about 2250? Why not 2500? Or 2113? Wy 2250, of all things?

Shiodome
30-03-2009, 23:17
i know 2k was the default last time i played in 3rd ED. the whole 2,250 seemed like such an odd number when i returned to the game, but doesn't make much difference. 2k fits nicely into 2 hours though, 2,250 just about overruns unless we rush... and there's a 2 hour turnaround on tables where i play to get 2 games in per evening.

Shadowsinner
30-03-2009, 23:18
actually i think the transition into 7th made 2250 more common. At the game place i play at wehen we ran 6th ed tournaments way back when the standard was 2k.... I actually miss 2000 pt matches because it typically generates softer lists... very few people opt to take overpowered lords or super deathstar lists with fewer points allowed... hmmm maybe i found a way to make VC and Demons less broken... give them fewer points to work with!

W A L 5 H Y
30-03-2009, 23:21
i wish that the traditional games round here were 2250. But the games here in the UK 2000 seems to be the normal, i think the reason is that the GTs here are 2000pts! lol

Keller
30-03-2009, 23:26
We almost always play 2K around here, none of this silly 2250 stuff. :p

Our games are usually 2K, but also 1000, 1500, 2500, 3000, and 3500 get played fairly regularly.

slingersam
30-03-2009, 23:31
I think I could finish a game 4000 point game, in 3 hours
It's just that my opponents take hours to do everything
so that slows everything down.

darkace77450
30-03-2009, 23:36
2000 points is a nice even number that allows players to field lords and a few rares.

2250 is an arbitrary number from GW to sale an extra 250 points worth of models to the tournament goers.

Ultimate Life Form
30-03-2009, 23:36
I think I could finish a game 4000 point game, in 3 hours
It's just that my opponents take hours to do everything
so that slows everything down.

Second that. What are you thinking, people? No one likes to wait an hour while the others make their turn. Play Vampire Counts, saves you the entire Shooting Phase.

Dokushin
30-03-2009, 23:55
2000 points is a nice even number that allows players to field lords and a few rares.

2250 is an arbitrary number from GW to sale an extra 250 points worth of models to the tournament goers.

O.o

Personally I find 2250 to make for a much better game. At 2000 combat lords completely dominate, and caster lords are too hard to defend against. 2250 discourages herohammer for this reason. 500 points in a lord in 2k means you win, or you lose, depending on the other guy's list. 500 points in a lord at 2250 means you still have a balanced game.

'Course, I play LM, so I might be biased.

CaliforniaGamer
30-03-2009, 23:57
I am from the West Coast of the US, and lived in both New Mexico and Utah. Both places 2k is the norm and has been for as long as I have played, nearly 15 years. Not sure why CA has moved so aggressively to 2250, although I do like it personally.

This is could be recent but I am not exaggerating when I say there is no private or public game I have played in the last 100 or so (and that is alot of hours of gaming!) which has been anything other than 2250..and I have pleaded for smaller and larger games to no avail.

I left Warhammer sometime around 1994 when games were indeed only 2000 or even smaller (1000 or 500 pt warbands) to return last year. Big change in California.

W0lf
30-03-2009, 23:59
2K is europian (or certainly UK) normal size.

me and my group tried 2,250 (refer 2K as its nicer to type/look at) and found it to just be 2K but with 1-3 additional units.

TBH we all got bored with how easy it was to fit everything you want into 2250. Writing a list to 2K is rewarding as you have to make sacrifices.

Shadowsinner
31-03-2009, 00:00
hmmm i dunno... i seem to see alot more 2250 point armies with 500 to 1000 points in heros than i do in 2k lists from 250 to 750... its the same ratio with different idealism

In my oppinion the extra 250 is just there to guarantee a supreme bsb or antoehr EOtG

CaliforniaGamer
31-03-2009, 00:02
2K is europian (or certainly UK) normal size.

me and my group tried 2,250 (refer 2K as its nicer to type/look at) and found it to just be 2K but with 1-3 additional units.

TBH we all got bored with how easy it was to fit everything you want into 2250. Writing a list to 2K is rewarding as you have to make sacrifices.

The irony of course is people here use the fact that 2250 is "Official GW English Tournament Size" and people in the UK dont even use it.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 00:11
'Official GW tournys' can kiss my ass.

You want to know a secret? Their is a simple formula to winning a GT or placing high. It goes somewhat like this;

1. Massacre your opponent on VPs first game but draw on the objective
2. Face another player who drew his game (so is likely a worse player)... rinse and repeat.

This way you can secure maximum VPs whilst playing noobs.

But hey this is warhammer... where the best player dosnt always win.

selone
31-03-2009, 01:09
2250 allows you to get your kitted up lord and kitted up army, 2000 forces you to make tough calls.

mweaver
31-03-2009, 03:12
When I make lists for fun, they are almost always 2000 points since that is the minimum for a lord.

I don't play in tournaments, so the 2250 figure never really popped up before for me.

John_J_Rambo
31-03-2009, 03:19
it is such a weird number. :eek: I personally like bigger games so I would prefer 2250. The way I see it is, the more troops the better. I like to be able to fit all of my models in the game.

Bum
31-03-2009, 03:33
I think its honestly because people wanted more stuff without actually seeming like theres more. For a while the norm was 2000, then 2150, then 2250 and its stuck there for a while. To me theres a mental thing that you hit every 500 points where it seems "bigger". An extra 2250 can literally for some armies be an extra unit and an extra scroll.

slingersam
31-03-2009, 04:07
The extra 250 allows you a scroll caddy, another special/rare. I honestly
doubt someone will be using that 250 for troops.

Dr.Mercury
31-03-2009, 04:26
Personally my favorite is 3000.
2000 just seems to itty bitty for me.

Sarah S
31-03-2009, 04:28
Canada is 2000.
I prefer 3500.

theunwantedbeing
31-03-2009, 04:36
2000 round here.
I rather like 2900.

1 lord, character's arent all that important, forces people to use troops for a change.

My list is a pretty well optimised 2k list, 2 hero's and 1 rare for 2k.
With the larger game I can be more relaxed about it all.

PARTYCHICORITA
31-03-2009, 06:00
Here is Peru we usually play 2Kpts.
I am under the impression that in Spain they usually play either 1500 or 2K as well.

Qiqel
31-03-2009, 07:34
Over here we play 2k. I tried 2250 and I didn't like it at all. In my opinion 2250 was invented by min-maxers who were frustrated about not being able to gear up their heroes and units with all the most expensive options.

2k lists enforce compromises. You can't give full point allowance in magic items to characters, you can't take all the options for units, you have to give up a rank here or there or take one light cavalry less... that is a challenge and the choices made affect the battle afterwards. In 2250 you can pretty much expect every unit come with best options and every character fully geared - players can take everything they need for their build. Where's the challenge in that?

Skitter-Squeek
31-03-2009, 07:49
'Official GW tournys' can kiss my ass.

You want to know a secret? Their is a simple formula to winning a GT or placing high. It goes somewhat like this;

1. Massacre your opponent on VPs first game but draw on the objective
2. Face another player who drew his game (so is likely a worse player)... rinse and repeat.

This way you can secure maximum VPs whilst playing noobs.

But hey this is warhammer... where the best player dosnt always win.


Please don't let everyone know this awsome secret:wtf: and yea I have had my plenty fair share of Gt's before you go shooting your mouth off.



2250 is alright in my books, makes for a fun game and interesting lists.


Squeek

The Clairvoyant
31-03-2009, 08:47
how long do those take? 6 hours?

Well i normally arrive at my friends house at about 10am. We have a coffee and then he finishes off his army list.
We then set up the battlefield and set up our armies, have more coffee/cigarettes then play a couple of turns. We then go out for an hour or so for lunch, come back and finish the game. All packed away again by about 4.30

So yeah, about 6 hours but that includes all the setting up, putting away, various breaks and going out for lunch.
We also play at a very leisurely pace

Deetwo
31-03-2009, 09:19
I've even seen some 1999 tournaments around :) Apparently those are actually a lot of fun as you really need to build around core units.

But I think 2k makes for a more balanced game as it limits the extent of herohammer you can do. Adding 250 points just makes it easier to take everything you want, which shouldn't be the case.

Briohmar
31-03-2009, 09:36
Invariably, I make my list at 2K, and if someone wants to play 2250, I usually add a few models to one unit and a BSB. All of my armies are magnetised, and I transport up to 3000 points on each tray, so I can play at whatever level my opponent wishes. Also, thanks to Army Builder, I print lists out at 1000, 1250, 1500, 2000, 2250, 2500, and 3000, and always carry them in my satchel. (By the way, the satchel is essential, as being an American playing in Belgium, I have to carry an english version of every army book, just to ensure clear translation.)

Keller
31-03-2009, 13:35
I think I could finish a game 4000 point game, in 3 hours
It's just that my opponents take hours to do everything
so that slows everything down.
We usually play around 3000 or 3500 for our largest games, and they take about 3 hours from set up to clean up. That's nt bad.


Second that. What are you thinking, people? No one likes to wait an hour while the others make their turn. Play Vampire Counts, saves you the entire Shooting Phase. Ha. :) Don't forget Banshees! Its amazing to see how much faster my VC army can take a turn compared to my Empire at times. My Empire always has more troops, lots of shooting (at these higher point levels) and a little magic. My VC doesn't have as many infantry regiments to try to manuever, plays more agressivly, and has about 1 or 2 shooting attacks at most. Of course my VC magic can slow things down if I really want to.



2250 allows you to get your kitted up lord and kitted up army, 2000 forces you to make tough calls. Personally, i think those tough calls are what Warhammer is all about. You need to pick your lists for a certain way to play. Its boring if you can do everything well!


Personally my favorite is 3000.
2000 just seems to itty bitty for me. I agree, and like to have 2 lords. That way I can experiment with some of the fun set-ups without crippling my army by removing the general from the battle line.

Tae
31-03-2009, 13:54
2K is europian (or certainly UK) normal size.

me and my group tried 2,250 (refer 2K as its nicer to type/look at) and found it to just be 2K but with 1-3 additional units.

TBH we all got bored with how easy it was to fit everything you want into 2250. Writing a list to 2K is rewarding as you have to make sacrifices.

That's exactly my feelings on it. 2,250 lists are just 2k lists with the unit that people wanted originally but couldn't afford to be included. It doesn't balance the characters anymore, it just adds another unit to the board.

/yawn.

Frogczar
31-03-2009, 14:33
We have a lot of newer players so our games range usually from 1000 to 1500 points with the occaisional 2000 point game.

I've worked my ass off to get 1500 points of O&G painted for the table (I have over 140 models painted now) and I'm working on a Wyvern for 2000 points. I don't know how so many people can play so many points?! 2250 points is an insane number of models.

I try to abide by the rule: "If it isn't painted, don't play it". It's one of the only ways I'll get the models finished.

I think 2000 points is what the game should be played at, one lord choice and thats it.

-Frog

Keller
31-03-2009, 14:50
I don't know how so many people can play so many points?! 2250 points is an insane number of models. It does take a lot of work, money and time to get to high point levels. You have to remember though, some people have been playing a long, long time. I have been playing Empire for 7 years now, and have upwards of 5000 points for them if i throw my whole collection on the table. I've had my vampires for about 6 years and they are over 3000 points. My newest army, Ogre Kingdoms was started about 3 years ago when they came out. I can only barely scrape a 3K army together for them.


I try to abide by the rule: "If it isn't painted, don't play it". It's one of the only ways I'll get the models finished. This is a rule not a lot of people use. I must confess, I have a fair ammount of unpainted things for some of my armies that I use from time to time. For instance, I have a Zombie Dragon that I like to use every now and then, but not often enough that I've made a point to paint it yet. There are plenty of people with entirely unpainted armies who still play a lot. As much as I like to see painted ones on the field, as long as I can tell what the unit is, I won't dis-allow it. I won't stop people from playing with what they've bought just because they don't have time to paint. Our resident HE player only has about 3 painted units in his entire army, and 2 of them he bought off of Ebay. Its been atleast 5 years in the making for him. Still is a great game every time we play, regardless if I am looking at bare plastic and metal.

The boyz
31-03-2009, 15:01
2000pts seem's to be the main point's limit round here for most WFB tournamet's. So, I presume that is why, most people tend to play 2000pt game's. I much prefer playing smaller game's though, of around 1000 to 1500pts, mainly due to time.

The Clairvoyant
31-03-2009, 15:13
I don't know how so many people can play so many points?! 2250 points is an insane number of models.

I've been playing as vampires counts (previously Undead) since 1994 and can field around 10000 points. Of this lot, i can field around 9000 of it without resorting to unpainted models. However, I do have to run into old crappy models and bad paint jobs!

Frogczar
31-03-2009, 16:01
I've been playing as vampires counts (previously Undead) since 1994 and can field around 10000 points. Of this lot, i can field around 9000 of it without resorting to unpainted models. However, I do have to run into old crappy models and bad paint jobs!

!!! Wow !!!

I've been a 40k player most of my life, I have to admit, it is a much lower model-count game that WFB. When I started playing Fantasy, I couldn't believe how many more models it used. I'm kind of getting used to it now, 40k seems like it has no models at all!

IcedCrow
31-03-2009, 16:07
Fantasy was default at 2000 points for many many years. Around the time of the independent GT earlier this decade, scenarios were used that said 2000 point army + 250 variable add-ons. After a while this was merged into 2,250 point army.

It became hugely popular because people could squeeze in an extra unit or two and so it became a basic tournament standard and has now as of today seemed like it's always been that way (when in fact, 2250 point games as standard are only a few years old).

bomblu
31-03-2009, 16:15
I think 2k allows enough points to have a decent ammount of models/units for a nice good solid game without having to spend TOOO much time playing (like3 or 4 k games)

Lord Malorne
31-03-2009, 16:22
how long do those take? 6 hours?

Around that long, yes.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 18:14
When my group went to 2,250 the following happened;

Vampire player took a vargulf and and a few more grave guard.
Dwarf player got a stone thrower and 10 thunderers
Skaven player upgraded seer on bell to Thanquol on bell.
Me -(Hordes of chaos) added to chaos chariots to my army
Wood elf player added treeman and a few dryads.

But then again we are so used to 2K that no one really re-wrote their list. Same as when we play 3k. Just seems to be our 2K with another core or 2 then a lord+elite unit+hero.

lakissov
31-03-2009, 21:56
we almost exclusively use 2000. 2250 allows for too much abuse - it's basically from this limit when you can field a dragon without really limiting yourself.

In fact, i'd say that 1999 is a much better format. It forces you to use more cores, less cheese, and actual tactics.

Malorian
31-03-2009, 22:49
In fact, i'd say that 1999 is a much better format. It forces you to use more cores, less cheese, and actual tactics.

What about armies like tomb kings and vampires that really need their lords to be truely competitive?

What about armies like orcs that need their lords to keep their low leadership troops in order?


The idea of no lords to avoid star dragons is nice, but you have to realize that other armies really need their lords.

Cry of the Wind
31-03-2009, 23:07
All the tournaments I've played in Canada are 2k for big ones and 1.5k for smaller with the odd 1k in there too. Majority of games played at the FLGS at 2k or 1k.

I've never played a game that was bigger than that so I can't really comment on if I like it better or not. I think 2250 would be a much easier games for me since I always end up going, "If only I had 30 more points", let alone a couple hundred...

snyggejygge
31-03-2009, 23:23
I've even seen some 1999 tournaments around :) Apparently those are actually a lot of fun as you really need to build around core units.

But I think 2k makes for a more balanced game as it limits the extent of herohammer you can do. Adding 250 points just makes it easier to take everything you want, which shouldn't be the case.

My gaming group plays 1999 pts games, a lot more fun since there are no Dragons or lord level casters, also rare units are indeed rare (max 1 unit), I've tried to get the tournament organizers around here to try it out, but they're afraif people wouldn't show up because of the lack of lords:wtf:

W0lf
31-03-2009, 23:28
My fav part of any armylist is my lord ^^

However im going to get my gaming group to try 1999 pts as it sounds diffrent. However like malorian said i wudnt dream of using vamps and think my WoC would actucally be more competitive.

Ultimo ninja
01-04-2009, 02:55
Canada is moving from 2k to 2250

Dungeon_Lawyer
01-04-2009, 03:20
I've tried to get the tournament organizers around here to try it out, but they're afraif people wouldn't show up because of the lack of lords:wtf:


They are right---No sense running a tourney that neuters 50% of the armies out there.

lakissov
01-04-2009, 07:54
What about armies like tomb kings and vampires that really need their lords to be truely competitive?
What about armies like orcs that need their lords to keep their low leadership troops in order?
The idea of no lords to avoid star dragons is nice, but you have to realize that other armies really need their lords.

The idea is not for avoiding start dragons only. It's for avoiding any dragons, any greater daemons, and any double rares, and focusing people on troops. Of course, this idea must be coupled also with "no special characters" - that, for me, is something not even to be discussed (the fact that special characters often take tactics away from the game).

I do realize that some armies are much more efficient with lords than without them. Vampires, for example. Well, the fact that they wouldn't be able to invospam as efficiently as they currently do merely puts them on the same power level as empire. Is it a bad thing? In my mind, no. Orcs will have a Ld8 general instead of Ld9? Well, I find that this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that there will be less flying (and non-flying) terror-causers on the battlefield, and the the opponent will have less uber-units. About tomb kings - I can't comment as I don't know this army well. But here as well, I think that the hit in power they would take from not having lords is smaller than enyone riding dragons would - and as a result, the playing field would be more even.

zak
01-04-2009, 10:50
We have recently been playing 3k as it allows you to use a combination of lords and hero's and all of the troops that you could never fit in at 2k (or 2250). If we are playing smaller games then it is at 2k.

Hvidponi
01-04-2009, 22:51
In Denmark 2250 seems to be the standard... Although we got turnies that are 1999, 2500 and 3000... I belive we also got a 2999, one of my favorite army sizes (apart from 3999...)

perplexiti
01-04-2009, 23:25
We used to play 1500 because of time constraints, and occasionally 2k. But now we seem to have been playing 3k alot, takes a bit longer but the options are better.

Crazy Harborc
02-04-2009, 01:17
I seem to recall that GW started the push to use 2250 pt. armies.....At least in this area. I do believe that I first saw mention of 2250 pts. in a WD monthly mag.