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melgorth
31-03-2009, 00:15
Hi guys, I was recently talking with my gaming group and they consider that a lot of dispel dice (9 or more) is as cheesy as the equivilant ammount of power dice in 2000 points. Now my Greenskin army commonly has up to 9-10 dispel dice in my 2000 point list along with two dispel scrolls but I have never really considered this to be overdoing it before now. I would usually be facing Dark/High Elves, Tomb Kings, and Lizardmen and I do enjoy having usually more dispel dice than they do power dice (except for the Lizardmen) but now I feel that I could be hampering the enjoyment of others in my gaming group. So what I'm asking is for your opinions on what ye consider to be too much magic defense for friendly games? Thanks for any replies!:)

Shiodome
31-03-2009, 00:18
do any of your opponents worry about whether they affecting your enjoyment when they successfully cast a big scary damage spell?

ddfishy
31-03-2009, 00:24
I don't have that big of an issue with the number of DD considering it is O&G... Since you would probably need to take a wizard lord, and 2 or 3 caddies plus a spirt totem to get that many dice you as a result do suffer from low leadership, lack of animosity control and a lack of combat characters. All of which can be issues vs the opponents you faced

As for ruining the fun... the question is are they still getting spells off??? If they are then I don't see this as a problem... If you are able to completely remove ths phase from the game then i might see it as an issue.

Also the opponents that you face do tend to rely on magic more then other armies. So the question is how many mages are they taking??? If you want to remove some magic from the game and its just a friendly ask your opponent to limit the number of mages in a given game (say only 2 lvl 2 allowed) and you will do the same.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 00:48
Having excessive magic defence does indeed ruin medium-magic as an option and make it more of an all or nothing affair.

Unfortunatly people going Magic heavy (12+ PD) force this into the game anyway so i wouldnt worry too much. I can see why you having more DD then they have PD would be fustrating however.

selone
31-03-2009, 01:10
But then they could take no magicians and waste your magic defense. it is an all or nothign approach though for them, take no magic or take a shed load.

orkz222
31-03-2009, 05:23
No such a thing as too much magic defence considering 16+pd armies... or if your opponent just brings a lvl 1 scroll caddy for his army, the pts u invest in the magic def also wasted.

Alathir
31-03-2009, 06:00
In my gaming group, 9 dispel dice and two scrolls would be considered pretty excessive - unless you knew your opponent was going to go magic heavy. It can be very annoying to fight since it really forces your opponent to cheese out on magic if they particularly enjoy that part of the game and want it to be effective. My high elves barely manage to get more than 4-5 dispel dice!

Nationalmaverick
31-03-2009, 06:30
I miss my Sacred Spawning 15 DD lists...

nosferatu1001
31-03-2009, 11:57
At 2k my medium magic (2 engines) has 6-8DD and 1 scroll; i just learn to let spells through whre it won't hurt - the other day i played against a tzeentch daemon list with 3 lvl 2 (1 with vortex) and 3 horror blocks at lvl 2 - so LOTS of device. However the "wizards are stupid" banner more than made up for a "lack" of dice.

Give O&G you have handicapped yourself taking this many, so i owuldnt complain. Especially if your opponents know this - they should adapt to survive, its part of the metagame.

Shamfrit
31-03-2009, 11:59
21 Dispel Dice Khornate Beasts of Chaos armies are even more annoying...

I'd say 7 and 2 Scrolls would be my maximum tolerance.

0r 9 without scrolls.

StormCrow
31-03-2009, 12:04
In the example of orcs and goblins i don't think 8ish dispel dice is excessive purely because if a spell gets through and kills off some orcs with the spirit totem then you are losing DD as well as models so it balances out quite well. In my standard list you only need to kill a goblin shaman and 16 big uns to remove all my magic defence. Seeing as big uns die the same as a standard orc it's not a huge ask.
For other players it's even easier as you only have to kill the BSB and the shamans to ruins the O&G's defence.

The maximum dispel dice I've taken were 8 with no scrolls, but again it was with orcs and goblins so I don't think it's a big deal in the slightest.

Gazak Blacktoof
31-03-2009, 12:18
I don't think anybody in my group ever takes more than 6 DD and 2 scrolls.

That's respectable against most magic phases and nobody regularly uses more than 10 PD anyway.

Under 2000 points I only really have 3 DD and 1 scroll, I don't really like shutting the magic phase down completely as its a bit boring and sucks a lot of the fun out of some armies. Taking lots of DD only encourages people to take silly amounts of PD in the future. That results in some very small armies that don't look very good on the table top.

theunwantedbeing
31-03-2009, 12:18
Considering the most powerdice dice for a lot of armies is 12.
A Level 4 backed by three level 2 mages, plus the two you get for turning up is 12 powerdice.
One of those will get removed by your staff o'stealin...so most opponents are getting 11 powerdice at you, by going as max in the magical department as possible.

Usually having 2/3rds the amount in dispel dice, as your opponent has in powerdice is plenty to restrict their magic phase to doing nothing worthwhile. Especially when backed up by a couple of scrolls to stop any lucky high rolls.

So 8 dispel dice can shut down a maxed out mage army from a lot of armies.
High elves...well they get the banner of sorcery, gives them a bit more.
Dark elves....darkstar cloak, and maybe the bound item.
VC...loads of bound items and loads of single dice spamming.
Daemons...if tzeentch they can generate a lot of dice to get by.
Everyone else is in a fair bit of trouble really.

At 1.5k I've faced 8 dispel dice from the local Orc&Goblin player...my magic phase was certainly not that effective. I was relying on getting irresistable force or him being unlucky with his dispel roll.
8 dispel dice where one of those is stolen from my pool cripples a 2 mage army.
I saw it as excessive.

I'de stop taking Morks Spirit totem if I were you.
Fruitlessly throwing dice at an opponent who can just roll more than you to stop you gets really quite dull. Plus it dock's your dispel amount back into check with everyone else.
Most lists dont get anything like 8 dispel dice.....they get more like 5-6.

StormCrow
31-03-2009, 12:38
I'de stop taking Morks Spirit totem if I were you.
Fruitlessly throwing dice at an opponent who can just roll more than you to stop you gets really quite dull. Plus it dock's your dispel amount back into check with everyone else.
Most lists dont get anything like 8 dispel dice.....they get more like 5-6.
See for me watching a vampire player raise back half his army in a magic phase is dull, or being obliterated by a skink who managed a lucky comet, or a high elf who casts flames of the phoenix and drain magic. At least with a healthy amount of dispel dice i can at least compete in the magic phase.
Even if one high end spells gets through and i lose 6 orcs, thats 1 dispel dice that I'm down (i field all my orcs in units of 25), not to mention that if my goblin with staff miscasts once then there's a good chance I'll be down another 2 dice. If it were any other army I'd say it's excessive, but when you consider that it's the unpredictable orcs and goblins i think 8 dice is nowhere near extreme. below 2000 points I'd probably limit myself to 6 DD, and generally above 2000 points it's still at 6, i just wanted to make the point that the O&G's good defence in magic is by no means overpowered when you consider how easily it can be destroyed.

Ixquic
31-03-2009, 12:48
The fantasy magic system is overall pretty terrible. While the idea is good, it has not scaled at all with recent army books (and some of the old 6th ones either). The problem with the dispel/powerdice system they set up is that you either have to go super hog wild with it to get anything off reliably or just screw it entirely. Likewise it forces you to take wizards that will never be able to power their way through a magic defense but are required for yours. Dispel scrolls are also stupid since they are way too effective at shutting down magic phases, especially when three or more are taken (and two is stretching it) unless you are up against the all caster Tzeench army or something.

Avian here had a proposed 5th edition based magic dice system which I haven't had a chance to try but looked a lot better than the current setup.

Keller
31-03-2009, 13:09
Unfortunately, I think the newer army books are just creeping towards a bigger and bigger magic phase. In 6th ed, it was typical in our group to have 1-2 lvl2 mages, usually offering a player 5-6 power and 4-5 dispel dice. It was enough to add some variety to the game, yet didn't slow it down too much or take away from your armies' other areas.

Now, it seems mages are more and more common. My VC army can readily get 10+ PD while not even being strictly casting. My friend's HE are more magic heavy, usually coming in at around 6-8 PD, and the new DE are pumping out 10-12 PD per phase it seems. When I play my Empire, I cannot just take a single level 2 mage, or a mage and priest and more, or I get devestated by magic. Instead I have to invest in a MR banner and some MR talismans, or take a few extra mages and try to maximize defense.


Its a shame, really. I really like having some magic, but I think its getting out of hand now.

Lordsaradain
31-03-2009, 13:42
There is no such thing as too many DD.

Tae
31-03-2009, 13:50
If they know you run around with that many dispel dice (which isn't excessive, as others have pointed out) why don't they just turn up with very little in the way of magic to make you waste your points spent in magic defence?

I see your Mage Lord and 3 Mage heroes and raise you 4 fighty characters. Smack!

Sirroelivan
31-03-2009, 13:53
I think it's too much, with going so heavy on dispel dice, your discouraging players to give a medium magic setup a try.

Going magic heavy can ruin games in the same way though.

However, it's best just to have a talk with the people in your club. Maybe put a maximum on the number of power dice and dispel dice to keep things enjoyable?

The Anarchist
31-03-2009, 14:02
i would say the best thing to do in these circumstances is talk to your gaming group. if when you ask they say they wish you didn't have so many damn dispell dice with a chuckle your probably ok, if they get a bit agitated maybe you could jsut drop one or two dispell dice next time aorund and see how you feel about it.

btw its really nice to see a player that is intrested in his fellow gamers enjoyment and not jsut winning.

O&G'sRule
31-03-2009, 14:16
If your opponent takes alot of magic defense don't take magic, means another area of your army has alot more points and hes wasted lots of his

Finnigan2004
31-03-2009, 14:26
I like playing against a variety of army builds, and would probably enjoy playing against it once in a while. On the other hand, it would prevent anyone from taking moderate magic against it if you fielded it often. By fielding this, you are basically telling opponents not to bother with magic, unless they bring a maxed out slaan and at least two Engines of the Gods. It's worth thinking about whether that's a good message-- something that you are obviously doing by posting this thread. Kudos to you for considering your opponent's point of view :).

theunwantedbeing
31-03-2009, 14:30
Orcs&Goblins dont exactly spend all that much to get 8 dispel dice though.
50pt banner, then 150pts on hero's.(50 of which is an item)
200points, not a huge amount.

Consider a DE army has to spend over 550pts to get 8 dispel dice, as well as all 4 character slots.

Shiodome
31-03-2009, 14:53
lol, people are complaining about O&G's now? :wtf: it's pretty much people claiming they've got a 'right' to do a certain amount of damage to you in a certain phase, and if you defend yourself too well you're a bad person?

if you've gone magic heavy and are being nullified by a strong defense, it's equally likely they'll get little through in their magic phase, is this also 'unfair'? the descriptions of magical duels are of two mages battling between them, and only if one side gains a clear advantage does magical ruin rain down on an army. if two sides cancel each other out that's pretty much a closely fought fight and as it should be.

just because you've invested points in something doesn't mean it's 'unfair' if those points are denied a chance to complete their task. if i pay 300 points for a big scary combat character, it's not unfair if his potential is nullified by my opponent avoiding him or tying him up with crap... it's fair game. magic's the same for me, just because i've spent 500+ points on offensive magic doesn't mean i've a right for it to succeed, i should have to work for it otherwise what's the point in playing.

so don't complain about magical defences... go and earn your magical offense. kill the scroll caddies, butcher the BSB's and punch through the mystical defense to rain fire down on the unworthy. :P if you've made your army lists, and drawn up you plans with no thought to how you'll deal with magical defense... the fault is yours alone. for me my MSU wolf rider packs are assigned to suicide charging blocks to pick off low lvl mages turn 2. doesn't work as well as i'd like so i'm trying new things, and hopefully improving and developing as a player. makes it all the more fun.

Finnigan2004
31-03-2009, 15:07
I'm not sure that anyone is saying orcs and goblins are cheesey at all Shiodome. Likewise, I don't think anyone has problems with defending oneself from damaging magic defence. The problem with this sort of magical defence is not that it will not stop extremely powerful magic phases, but will encourage a "go big or go home" approach.

After fielding it for a while, he will have to expect to face either armies with four dark elf sorceresses with bound spells because that's what it will take to get magic through. Alternatively, armies with no sorceresses, a ring of Hotek on the black guard, and a pendant wearing, regenerating lord-- all purchased with the money that might have otherwise been spent on moderate magic. Extreme builds encourage reciprocity, and eight dice are a type of extreme build.

Fighting with extreme armies is fine, and can be fun. That said, there is no question that listening to opponent's concerns is a good thing because without them you have no one to play with.

melgorth
31-03-2009, 16:39
Hi guys, thanks for all of the replies so far, they have been insightful!
A couple of my opponents do take medium magic offensive armies, usually the Dark Elf player and the Daemon player, while the Lizardmen and Tomb Kings player usually goes magic heavy so in my all comers list I try to cover all angles.
In relation to Morks Spirit Totem, I do feel that sometimes that it is too much in a battle but then again all of the armies that I face are shooting heavy so the unit the BSB is in is usually reduced in numbers quite quickly. Also if i do face armies with little magic, it often ends up as a waste of points and ends giving more victory points to my enemy if he kills my character.
At the end of the day though, I don't like to reduce the enjoyment of the games that I play so I will probably talk it over with my group and see how it goes from there. We already have a limit on the ammount of power dice to be taken but I never considered dispel dice until now, but I don't mind reducing the ammount contained in my army if it is for the better.:)

MalusCalibur
31-03-2009, 16:47
There is no such thing as too many DD.

Quoted for truth.

I have often lamented the fact that Dispel Dice are disproportionately difficult to get compared to Power Dice. The best I ever managed at 2K was 8, with an Anvil based Dwarf army. And it STILL wasn't enough!


MalusCalibur

zak
31-03-2009, 16:54
I don't think I would have a problem with that many dispel dice. If you want that many dice then its going to impact upon the amount of points available for characters,troops etc so you may own the magic phase, but will be sub-par in one or more of the other phases or have issues with leadership as you took a mage lord rather than a combat lord.

O&G'sRule
31-03-2009, 19:17
Orcs&Goblins dont exactly spend all that much to get 8 dispel dice though.
50pt banner, then 150pts on hero's.(50 of which is an item)
200points, not a huge amount.

Consider a DE army has to spend over 550pts to get 8 dispel dice, as well as all 4 character slots.

Well thats how I see it too, but apparently O&Gs are rubbish and DE's are rock hard. go figure

KillbotFactory
31-03-2009, 19:33
Here is what I have noticed wrong...


I do enjoy having usually more dispel dice than they do power dice (except for the Lizardmen


We already have a limit on the ammount of power dice to be taken but I never considered dispel dice until now

If you are taking more dispel dice than they have power AND you know the power dice limit is capped then yes, you are taking too much defense. As some people have mentioned already, the 12+ PD armies are what should prompt you to take such a huge magic defense, but since that isn't an option in your group you guys should definitely cap dispel dice as well. I suggest talking it over and trying to find a balanced area of magic defense compared to the heavy magic armies that doesn't leave you gimp yet and that is very strong against the medium magic armies.

It is one thing to protect yourself, but its another thing to completely eliminate that phase in a friendly game.

cerealkiller195
31-03-2009, 19:44
i dont think having too many DD is a bad thing, i was never a fan of magic heavy armies so anything to deter that is good. Also Orcs need this type of defensive magic between low leadership animosity and few good choices in the magic items department they have to have an ace in the hole.

Nationalmaverick
31-03-2009, 19:49
I still think the magic phase needs a massive over haul, it just doesn't reflect the strengths and weakness's of magic armies vs non magic armies anymore like 5th ed and earlier.

Also I think there should be caps on DD, I'm no games developer but I find it undermining and frustrating when you field an expensive caster IE Tzeentch/Lizards and they save 5 or more dispel dice for the level 6 spell, and yeah yeah "that allows you to cast all your other spells with impunity" but I think that kills alot of the flavour of the magic phase.

Johnnyfrej
31-03-2009, 20:37
And people wonder why there is no "Psyker" phase in 40k :rolleyes:

EldarBishop
31-03-2009, 20:45
I much prefered the old winds of magic, magic phase.

Zachary
31-03-2009, 20:55
I tend to use alot of dispel dice against some O&G teams because they can field so many mages at such a low cost!

W0lf
31-03-2009, 23:44
What i people in this thread dont seem to undertsand is that by taking heavy magic defence you contribute to the problem of warhammer magic that is 14PD armies or scroll caddy lists.

My group as a test limited armies to 6 lvls of magic and no more then 7 DD where a scroll = 1 dd and each additional was 2 dd.

This worked out well as everyone took like 2 lvl 2's and a scroll or 2. Now weve stopped doing that everyones back to 12+ PD or caddy. shame, though it did allow me to do a vammpire army ^^

selone
01-04-2009, 02:22
Yeah its us ON'G players faults for having a magic defense :( With magic locked down we dominate the game in shooting and H-H :) We deserve the 12 PD armies.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 11:24
Ok you ignore a fairly obvious fact and the use of the word contibute and go wallow in self-pity saying i think OnG ruined warhammer.

:wtf:

Finnigan2004
01-04-2009, 14:55
I honestly don't think that anyone here thinks that orcs and goblins have ruined warhammer. Rather, we are saying that taking eight dispel dice could very well annoy opponents who like to bring moderate magic. It is fine if one doesn't heed the warning, but it might annoy opponents. It also might result in looking across the table at one of the magical abominations that I listed above, which will only be temporarily blunted by your caddies. Then you will stand a good chance of seeing an army actually taken apart by magic.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
01-04-2009, 16:07
If I play tournies I have 7 or 9 dp in my OnG army. 7dd and 3 scrolls in 2000pts and 9dd+2scrolls in 2250pts, and it locks down most magic indeed. For my opponent it isn't fun to see that his lv4 caster can't cast effectivly but for me it ain't fun to see my whole army blasted by magic.

Greetz
G

WarlockOMork
01-04-2009, 17:52
If they complain about you spending so much in anti magic, they shouldnt field magic for a game or two bash you to bitz with melee or ranged while your stuck with all your point spent in magic defence (while there is no magic to be found).
losing horribly a few games like that would probaly make you change your list.

if they stick stubbornly with their list attempting to field mages when they know they'll be locked down its their own fault inmo.

My two pence.

Ps: i think Currently O&G's should be allowed to field any list they want without an enemy ever beeing alowed to complain

The Red Scourge
01-04-2009, 18:47
Dispel dice really have no place in warhammer.

In no other phase do you have anything similar to dispel dice. You already have plenty chance of failure in the casting roll, the game does not need this extra roll. What is needed is a set of balanced lores, where army specific lores aren't superior to basic lores.

WarlockOMork
01-04-2009, 18:51
lots of Armour and ward have no place either, my lil Goblins have trouble enough as is trying to wound em. /sarcasm off :P

A lot of phases have counters to offensive measures.
(and quite some none spell offensive measures can also backfire)

The Red Scourge
01-04-2009, 19:04
All kills have some sort of to hit/to wound roll, some even have the risk of bad stuff attached. In the magic phase the to hit is included in the casting roll (along with a random number of models affected).

Most wounds will be countered by some sort of toughness/armor/ward/regen/initiative test/whatever.

But no other phase introduces a unique pool of dice in between the rolls. Its just adding an extra roll to the game for no reason.

WarlockOMork
01-04-2009, 19:12
Unique pool? (you get X dispell dice, just like you get X saves, armour, ward, regen, both dependant on how much you spend on it)
inmo a dispell roll, is in effect the same as a per example a ward roll.
as in: its just a dice roll, a dice roll by any other name is still a dice roll.

Cast spell, Success roll. Save roll.
Attack with weapon. Success roll. Save roll.

but thats just my vieuw on it,
in any event, im if you want the discussion to continue feel free to pm me, or open a spare thread. :)
no need for us to hijack this poor mans tread :D

selone
01-04-2009, 19:30
Ok you ignore a fairly obvious fact and the use of the word contibute and go wallow in self-pity saying i think OnG ruined warhammer.

:wtf:

It's clearly not an 'obvious fact' nor am i wallowing in anything atm ;)

Eblis_Dead_Forever
01-04-2009, 21:20
The way I look at it is this, if I came up against this list, would I have fun playing against it? If the answer is no, then I'm pretty sure that my opponent isn't going to have fun playing against it either.

If you think 8-9 dd + 2 scrolls is excessive, then chances are your gaming group is going to feel the same way. Of course this doesn't mean your list shouldn't be competitive, playing against a poorly constructed army can be as boring as a fully cheesed out list.

But always remeber where there is whine, cheese is likely to be nearby.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 22:10
It's clearly not an 'obvious fact' nor am i wallowing in anything atm

Care to exaplin why taking huge amount of magic defence dosnt make magic all or nothing?

Do you think people taking massive magic defence has no impact on medium-magic???

melgorth
01-04-2009, 22:33
After reading everyones comments and opinions, I think that I will change the set up of my army by most likely removing Mork's Spirit Totem and possibly one of my Orc Shamens. I too feel that the magic rules need to be refined and I don't want to contribute to the problem that occurs with them. I also do feel that a high magic defence can end up being a waste of points in some cases, especially Mork's Spirit Totem in relation to the Orcs and Goblins but that seems to happen rarer these days.


no need for us to hijack this poor mans tread :D

Haha I don't mind as long as your disccussion is as interesting as mine:p;)

WarlockOMork
01-04-2009, 22:33
well in that case let the hijacking continue

Magic will always be all or nothing with the current system even if they remove dispell dice.
if your foe brings a mage you need to bring a mage to even it out.
mages beeing far far more flexible then heroes, able to bring what is needed to where its needed. flexiblity beeing a big key to victory inmo. (unless you have a crap lore and then your screwed in this arms race, also making magic unbalanced.)
he'll bring another mage to win that arms race, and in response you will have to as well.
etc.

but thats just what i think about it.

Edit: just wanted to add that i agree that magic is indeed in need of a complete overhaul

selone
02-04-2009, 00:12
Care to exaplin why taking huge amount of magic defence dosnt make magic all or nothing?

Do you think people taking massive magic defence has no impact on medium-magic???

I don't care, no ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
02-04-2009, 00:14
You don't have to respond to magic with more magic though. You can use mage hunting units to restrict the positioning of enemy wizards and to kill them off. Not all armies have this option, nor does it work against all mages but it can prove useful.


All right thinking vets want a shake-up of the magic phase. Fingers crossed they do in 8th edition what they should have done with 7th and make medium magic a respectable choice.

selone
02-04-2009, 00:18
After reading everyones comments and opinions, I think that I will change the set up of my army by most likely removing Mork's Spirit Totem and possibly one of my Orc Shamens. I too feel that the magic rules need to be refined and I don't want to contribute to the problem that occurs with them. I also do feel that a high magic defence can end up being a waste of points in some cases, especially Mork's Spirit Totem in relation to the Orcs and Goblins but that seems to happen rarer these days.



Haha I don't mind as long as your disccussion is as interesting as mine:p;)

The problem with doing that and a flaw in other's arguments is you need an appropriate defense to cope with a huge amount of PD. As an orc that's likely to be Mork's totem and/or staff of sneaky stealing. If you play in an area where people don't use huge amounts of PD then sure feel free to lessen your DD appropriately but I wouldn't worry that if you took say 7DD to a 2-2250 k tournament or played in a 'very competitive' gaming group likesome warseers do you'd be able to totally shut down a magic phase :)


You don't have to respond to magic with more magic though. You can use mage hunting units to restrict the positioning of enemy wizards and to kill them off. Not all armies have this option, nor does it work against all mages but it can prove useful.


All right thinking vets want a shake-up of the magic phase. Fingers crossed they do in 8th edition what they should have done with 7th and make medium magic a respectable choice.

As said there are other way's of dealing with magic (killing the wizard, specific racial items) but some races do it better than others. You being a 'right thinking veteran' is your only problem with the magic system that you can't go medoum magic, and is it all warhammer environments you can't go magic medium in, or can you in some non tournament environ's?

Dexter099
02-04-2009, 00:48
If your opponent doesn't like your list and you trounce them, then you must be cheesy.

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 00:56
yes there are other solutions but if not all armies got acces to one or it isnt viable vs all armies (even mage vs mage isnt always viable, due to some bad lores.), it doesnt solve a lot.


If your opponent doesn't like your list and you trounce them, then you must be cheesy.
Completly untrue (but its what probaly what everyone thinks if they get a beating) but funny and very qoutable btw.

Edit: medium magic is possible but only friendly environments. beyond that its the want for a win that drives some people to magic heavy (as i mentioned before, highly flexible and extremely powerfull if you got a good lore)(and its those magic heavy that drive to heavy dispell) so competively its broken, (needs something to fix Extremes, both in counter magic and offensively)

Maybe something along the lines of Mage Z. produces X disp where X is equal to your opponents number of mages. and produces Y casting dice equal to 2+your opponents number of mages. in other words limmiting how good they are by how many mages your enemy brings along (under the fluff motto more mages attract more winds of magic(, including your enemys)) (this is just a rough idea i came up with, without a lot of tought, and isnt worked out by any means, it basicaly means the offensive side always wins with +/- 2 -3spells (if Y = equal and X would be 1+mages the ammount you'd win by would be 1or2 spells, tailor till balanced)

Rodman49
02-04-2009, 01:19
Well how are you getting 10 Dispel Dice?

2 base
2 from Mage Lord
3 from Banner with Ranks
2 from Lvl 2 Mages
1 from Staff of Sneaky Stealing

You're losing out on a lot of options. No big monster, No Ld 9 General, no combat heroes to buff fighting units. I would have no problem with that many dispel dice, you give up so many other options to achieve that much magic defense . . .

Lord Yawgmoth
02-04-2009, 02:29
If they complain about you spending so much in anti magic, they shouldnt field magic for a game or two bash you to bitz with melee or ranged while your stuck with all your point spent in magic defence (while there is no magic to be found)......

The problem I have with this approach is this:

One of his opponents is TK. If you have played against them, you know that Tomb Kings really do need their magic phase to be effective (only way to 'march' etc.) and in addition, even if they wanted to, Tomb Kings could not possibly not take magic, casting at least 2 spells a turn.... 3 if you want a lord choice, and they must have a general and a hierophant which both pay the extra points for their magic abilities.


But yeah, its between his friends. Medium magic is where it's at anyways....
if you want to be a cool person that is,.....
well,...
do you?

snyggejygge
02-04-2009, 07:57
I don't have that big of an issue with the number of DD considering it is O&G... Since you would probably need to take a wizard lord, and 2 or 3 caddies plus a spirt totem to get that many dice you as a result do suffer from low leadership, lack of animosity control and a lack of combat characters. All of which can be issues vs the opponents you faced



Ehm no, 2DD base, 2 for 2 level 1 wizards, 3 from the Spirit Totem, 1 from the Staff of Sneaky Stealing, plus 2 scrolls from the 2:nd wizard, in total 8DD, 2 scrolls & 1 PD less for the opponent, at the cost of 2 heroslots, now you can get a lord, as well as a BSB to get 2 combatcharacters providing LD & controlling the animosity.

Lord Anathir
02-04-2009, 08:25
nothing wrong with that quantity of dispel dice, even though it wound shut down my 10 dice high elf phase. I run 5 dd 5 scrolls myself, and to be honest, some armies need it. Just like anything else it comes at a cost, your o+g army will only have 1 real combat character and 3/4 character item setups are known me to me right away in turn 1, so I cant be surprised later in the game with a specialty item..

Gazak Blacktoof
02-04-2009, 08:58
You being a 'right thinking veteran' is your only problem with the magic system that you can't go medoum magic, and is it all warhammer environments you can't go magic medium in, or can you in some non tournament environ's?

Tournament and non-tournament environments has got little to do with it. Its entirely down to how much magic your opponent has got which can obviously vary game to game and player to player.

neXus6
02-04-2009, 09:09
Personally I've always preferred mass dispel dice to mass scrolls, but I only like it when I can have a mix of characters, I wouldn't go all mages just for the dispel.

From an Orc and Goblin view though a couple of mages, Idol of Gork and a Staff of Sneaky Stealing can get you up around 8 dispel and -1 enemy power, to me that is a lot more fun than if I had 4 dispel dice and 4 scrolls.

selone
02-04-2009, 09:50
Tournament and non-tournament environments has got little to do with it. Its entirely down to how much magic your opponent has got which can obviously vary game to game and player to player.

Sorry but I don't entirely agree. Whilst I do agree some armies will naturally tend towards more power dice than others I don't agree theres no difference between tournament play and friendly play. I'd be suprised if tournaments didn't have proportionally more 'high dice magic' and friendly games more 'medium magic'. I'd hope there's a difference in the amount of PD a VC player would have in a competitive tournament environment and a more friendly one.


Ehm no, 2DD base, 2 for 2 level 1 wizards, 3 from the Spirit Totem, 1 from the Staff of Sneaky Stealing, plus 2 scrolls from the 2:nd wizard, in total 8DD, 2 scrolls & 1 PD less for the opponent, at the cost of 2 heroslots, now you can get a lord, as well as a BSB to get 2 combatcharacters providing LD & controlling the animosity.

Thats not 10 DD though thats 8+ 2 dispell scrolls, getting 10 DD would involve using a lord which was the original point :) Getting 8dd + 2 dispell scrolls would involve you using your BSB to carry mork's totem and 2 shamans with maxed out defensive magic items. Whilst it may not be as big investment as some feel you should have to pay to counter an opponent's magic phase it's still meaning that you have used 2 hero slots on it and tied your BsB into defense too, giving you one combat, killy char- the lord. You do give up on something to get that much magic defense.

W0lf
02-04-2009, 10:34
You CAN put totem on Black orcs or big uns though IIRC?

Not that its a good idea ^^

Gazak Blacktoof
02-04-2009, 10:40
Sorry but I don't entirely agree. Whilst I do agree some armies will naturally tend towards more power dice than others I don't agree theres no difference between tournament play and friendly play. I'd be suprised if tournaments didn't have proportionally more 'high dice magic' and friendly games more 'medium magic'. I'd hope there's a difference in the amount of PD a VC player would have in a competitive tournament environment and a more friendly one.


You disagree with "it varies"?

Even if you take the UK GT as the preimer-cheese-fest you still wont find an entire field of armies that are tricked out. On the opposite end of the scale if you look at the battle report section of this site you'll see that there are a lot of players who take hard armies to their clubs, stores and friends' basements every week.

There's no one way to play tournaments or friendly games.

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 10:44
the ammount of cheese is all gonna depend on how bad you want to win, wether in a tournament or friendly play. (tough in friendly play you probaly have a bigger chance of encountering less)

melgorth
02-04-2009, 16:44
One of his opponents is TK. If you have played against them, you know that Tomb Kings really do need their magic phase to be effective

Yes I agree, this is mostly true and one time I used to go with a low magic defense against them but I often found, especially late on in games, that the Tomb King magic was often the major decider with up to two extra Screaming Skull Catapult shots in the magic phase, a magical charge from chariots into the flanks of my units or a Casket of Souls going off with a lot of my units with line of sight to it. Also I came up against a 2nd generation Slann + Skink Priest (6th edition) list fairly often so I suppose my list has changed accordingly.

I think the main reason I take Mork's Spirit Totem is to maintain good level of dispel dice in the later stages of the game for when my shamens die (which is almost always due to the enemy killing them off or them killing themselves on the miscast table).


The question is are they still getting spells off?
My opponents always get spells off in a game against me, maybe not as many as they would like but enough to affect me, and I never completely shutdown my enemies magic. This is probably the reason that I have never considered that I have too much magic defense until now.

Bies21
02-04-2009, 16:54
I don't quite get this argument. Am I unfair for defending against my opponents magic phase? Is that really the question being asked?

I don't really want to sound rude or aggressive but if your magic phase gets shut down boo-frickety-hoo. Either take more PD or learn to play with less magic (which isn't a bad thing).

TBH if you're getting 10+DD then you're really trying (and probably have a strong magic phase of your own) which means you're spending lots of points in that phase and your general tactic probably revolves around that phase as well.

This leaves you open in other phases of the game. Using myself as an example I've played a Tzeentch list with the obligatory 3x10 horrors + Kairos +2lv2's Tzeentch Heralds. I managed to combat his magic phase quite well and by turn 3 all those horrors were dead- end enemy crazy magic!

At the short end of it all heavy magic defence is perfectly fine to me as it's a valid tactic- you don't want to be smacked by magic then don't let your opponent get a spell off, and remember their are always irresistable casts and auto-fail dispels (and you're still rolling die anyway so if you have my luck you probably need about 20DD).

For the record my usual army has 7DD base which can be upgraded to 10 and I have 8PD which can be upgraded to 11 with 5 bound spells.

selone
02-04-2009, 17:03
You CAN put totem on Black orcs or big uns though IIRC?

Not that its a good idea ^^

You can put it on biguns, black orcs and even boaryboy biguns yes. It's not a good idea, indeed ;) Some might say terrible.


You disagree with "it varies"?

Even if you take the UK GT as the preimer-cheese-fest you still wont find an entire field of armies that are tricked out. On the opposite end of the scale if you look at the battle report section of this site you'll see that there are a lot of players who take hard armies to their clubs, stores and friends' basements every week.

There's no one way to play tournaments or friendly games.

I actually disagreed with not just the 'it varies' which is why I quoted the entire post :) I actually read the battle report site a lot, thank you and even post my own battle reports :D
Let me reiterate my point which is with with a few exceptions the tournament scene features more competative (i hate to say cheesy)armies than gaming club type of armies or round someones house type of games. Yes there will be very competative gaming group's which one or two of warseers's more vocal players may be a part of, and yes you get people bringing 'fun armies' to tournaments (some more than others). I do think there is a difference though :)

melgorth
02-04-2009, 17:10
Really what I am asking am I being unfair by over-defending against my opponents magic phase rather than just defending against it. As my group are considering to place a cap on the ammount of Dispel Dice each player is allowed to use, I feel that maybe I have been unfair towards my opponents by taking such a high magic defence. If I have been unfair I would rather rectify it than let it continue.:)

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 17:14
thats all nice and good, and probaly inspires to some fun playing,
but needs beeing carefull with, as in people may take advantage of said cap.
by potentially taking lots of mages/powerdice/bounds you now cant effectively defend against.

Bies21
02-04-2009, 17:19
Really what I am asking am I being unfair by over-defending against my opponents magic phase rather than just defending against it. As my group are considering to place a cap on the ammount of Dispel Dice each player is allowed to use, I feel that maybe I have been unfair towards my opponents by taking such a high magic defence. If I have been unfair I would rather rectify it than let it continue.:)

If you're going to cap your DD then I hop you cap the PD.

To be fair I usually find that having half the DD of my opponents PD is enough to hamper his magic phase you usually need to let in a few spells but those nasty ones (wind of undeath) you should have the dice to stop.

Problem when you cap is what happens with items that can raise that cap? Rod of Power, That VC item that allows you to store a die, etc. If you have those items CAN you go over the cap or if you cap at 10 and ROP lets you save UP TO 3 are you only allowed to bring 7DD initially. etc.

Also I don't think you're being unfair as I said above. If you invest the points in magic defence then good for you. If your opponent doesn't spend points in magic offence then he shouldn't cry when he doesn't get a spell through.

Finally is this change being led by VC and Deamon players perchance? :D

selone
02-04-2009, 17:19
Really what I am asking am I being unfair by over-defending against my opponents magic phase rather than just defending against it. As my group are considering to place a cap on the ammount of Dispel Dice each player is allowed to use, I feel that maybe I have been unfair towards my opponents by taking such a high magic defence. If I have been unfair I would rather rectify it than let it continue.:)

Are they considering a cap on power dice too?

melgorth
02-04-2009, 17:23
This is true and a cap on Power dice is also being considered but would not effect bound items, etc or the dice per spell a Slann can get when he takes one of the powers.


Finally is this change being led by VC and Deamon players perchance? :D

Haha no I'm afraid not, just the Lizardmen/Tomb King and Dark Elf players.:)

Chaos Undecided
02-04-2009, 17:31
Having a VC army myself I can easily imagine it would be a VC player causing the most huff about too many dispel dice given the tendency to underspend on minimal sized core choice units and overspending on characters with the intention of bringing the army up to strength before the armys meet.
I guess you could question if thats fair on other armys who are generally stuck with what they begin with but its a major part of the armys flavour, personally I prefer to at least have healthy sized units to begin with to compensate for the dice being in a bad mood.

Bies21
02-04-2009, 17:36
This is true and a cap on Power dice is also being considered but would not effect bound items, etc or the dice per spell a Slann can get when he takes one of the powers.



Haha no I'm afraid not, just the Lizardmen/Tomb King and Dark Elf players.:)

All 3 heavily relying on magic or very magic capable. I wouldn't let the motion pass personally. Maybe just scale it down a little for those opponents.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-04-2009, 18:06
I actually disagreed with not just the 'it varies' which is why I quoted the entire post :) I actually read the battle report site a lot, thank you and even post my own battle reports :D
Let me reiterate my point which is with with a few exceptions the tournament scene features more competative (i hate to say cheesy)armies than gaming club type of armies or round someones house type of games. Yes there will be very competative gaming group's which one or two of warseers's more vocal players may be a part of, and yes you get people bringing 'fun armies' to tournaments (some more than others). I do think there is a difference though :)


That's fine, I wont hound you for disagreeing. I simply don't feel as comfortable taring people with a broad brush. Given that in any one game you could be playing any type of list constructed from any book I feel the distinction is irrelevant.

selone
02-04-2009, 18:29
That's fine, I wont hound you for disagreeing. I simply don't feel as comfortable taring people with a broad brush. Given that in any one game you could be playing any type of list constructed from any book I feel the distinction is irrelevant.

Okies I do understand your point just perhaps I'm used to a more rigorous definition of tournament and non tournament decks from CCG's (and tournament and non tournament therefor) :)