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Rirekon
31-03-2009, 10:38
So myself and a friend are looking at getting into WotR, we both really enjoy the Warmaster Tournament scene and hope that WotR will lean towards this.
While reading the rule book (mine arrived middle of last week, good job GW :D) and selecting armies we noticed something;
The rules specifically mention Good vs Evil a lot, in a rules context. Now this got us thinking, what is the likely hood that WotR tournaments will end up being doubles affairs, with each team needing a Good and an Evil army?

My friend is definitely going to be taking Dwarves and I'm torn between Elves and Mordor/Isengard. I was just going to wing it but if we're right about the tournaments then I want to be taking an Evil force so we can team up.

What do other people think about this, has anyone heard about any tournaments being set-up already?

takaetun
31-03-2009, 11:00
If you play Evil versus Evil, for example, in SBG, one side is designated as the 'Evil' side and one as the 'Good', or rather, less evil, side. They'd presumably do something similar for a tournament - there is no reason to have a person bring two WotR armies to a tournament that I can think of.

Rirekon
31-03-2009, 11:57
Not one person with two armies, two people with two armies (of different alignments).

takaetun
31-03-2009, 12:10
That's what I mean, the alignment as written in the book would be irrelevant. One side would be designated evil for the sake of the scenario and the game, regardless of what their actual force is. By mentioning two armies, I meant that tournament organisers would not force people to bring to to resolve the situation, people would just be arbitrarily sided as good or evil as I said.

Rirekon
31-03-2009, 12:20
That doesn't really solve things, as I said Good and Evil are used in the rules not just in fluff.
For instance the Witch King impose bonuses/penalties to nearby units based on their alignment. (i.e. -C for Good, +C for Evil).
This is obviously intended so that the controllers forces (and those of allied players - the Evil side) receive the benefit and enemies (the Good side) get the penalty. In a tournament this would do strange things when facing Evil forces unless FAQ'd, and it gets worse if you change people's alignments (i.e. making the Witch King Good...)

takaetun
31-03-2009, 13:13
Actually, it solves things perfectly.

If one side is arbitrarily designated as 'Good', but is actually Evil, all rules would obviously be reversed. If the Witch King is 'Good' for the purposes of the tournament or game, then you would use common sense to say that, yes, all 'Good' models automatically pass At the Double tests if he is behind them, and all 'Evil' models fail such tests.

I can think of no downside to this method.

Emeraldw
31-03-2009, 15:29
Just consider yourself the Good army and the other the evil army. Do this for each player. Clearly if your playing Sauron then the other armies are evil as they dare to stand in the way of your divine right to rule the world. :D

Rirekon
31-03-2009, 15:58
To add more credence to my thoughts, LotR tournaments appear to run as doubles with each team needing 1 Good and 1 Evil army;
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&catId=&categoryId=3500001&aId=13000005

Emeraldw
31-03-2009, 17:24
To add more credence to my thoughts, LotR tournaments appear to run as doubles with each team needing 1 Good and 1 Evil army;
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=true&catId=&categoryId=3500001&aId=13000005

That's silly imo, but the size of each force is rather small. Once you start requiring 2k plus armies, I think they will have to find another method.

Rirekon
31-03-2009, 17:46
Silly yes, though if that's way things go I need to be prepared for it. Hence my asking if anyone's heard of any WotR tournaments being arranged already :)

Avatar of the Eldar
31-03-2009, 18:16
This is precisely why I strongly believe WotR as a tournament game is retarded. Why take up this themed game if you want to throw two armies at each other in a cage-match competition? Play WFB, 40K, Warhammer Historical. Tourney play warps army builds and tactics all for the sake of winning. Ugh.

miker1
31-03-2009, 18:42
This is precisely why I strongly believe WotR as a tournament game is retarded. Why take up this themed game if you want to throw two armies at each other in a cage-match competition? Play WFB, 40K, Warhammer Historical. Tourney play warps army builds and tactics all for the sake of winning. Ugh.

But it also is great fun AND the chance to play other people who you would never meet. It ALSO allows the dissemination of ideas!

Orcs DO fight Orcs, Gondor DID have a Civil War. So whats the problem?
Just because it doesn't launch YOUR boat does not make it "retarded"

Bac5665
31-03-2009, 19:00
This is precisely why I strongly believe WotR as a tournament game is retarded. Why take up this themed game if you want to throw two armies at each other in a cage-match competition? Play WFB, 40K, Warhammer Historical. Tourney play warps army builds and tactics all for the sake of winning. Ugh.

That's just not true and I'm tired of hearing it. Douches warp army builds and tactics for the sake of wining. 90% of the tourney goes I've ever played against have been fantastic hobbiests. The slander that wanting win makes you a bad person has got to stop. Good players play to win AND play with fluff and theme and realism in mind. Anything less belittles the hobby.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
31-03-2009, 19:59
This is precisely why I strongly believe WotR as a tournament game is retarded. Why take up this themed game if you want to throw two armies at each other in a cage-match competition? Play WFB, 40K, Warhammer Historical. Tourney play warps army builds and tactics all for the sake of winning. Ugh.

I have to agree. Good should face evil in this game and it should make sense. The abilities of either side are calibrated so it works best under the "appropriate" circumstances. Elves fighting Rohan? That doesnt make sense. That would be a good-good example of silliness. High elves fighting urukhai of the white hand also doesnt make that much sense. But thats just an opinion of course. Fantasy is fantastic for throwing guys at each other and making up some funny reason as to why they are warring with one another.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
31-03-2009, 20:01
That's just not true and I'm tired of hearing it. Douches warp army builds and tactics for the sake of wining. 90% of the tourney goes I've ever played against have been fantastic hobbiests. The slander that wanting win makes you a bad person has got to stop. Good players play to win AND play with fluff and theme and realism in mind. Anything less belittles the hobby.

I agree about the wanting to win makes you a bad person. Some people are bad sports and make " " army lists but its the being a bad sport that makes them suck not so much a mean list.
Wanting to win is the reason we all play the games initially. Trying to lose is probably more difficult to do than trying to win for the sake of our egos :angel:

Avatar of the Eldar
31-03-2009, 20:21
But it also is great fun AND the chance to play other people who you would never meet. It ALSO allows the dissemination of ideas!

Orcs DO fight Orcs, Gondor DID have a Civil War. So whats the problem?
Just because it doesn't launch YOUR boat does not make it "retarded"

I don't disagree with your first 'graph.

Only partially right in the second. Because it doesn't "launch my boat" does make it retarded. To me. Anything anyone posts here is mostly an opinion. I'm merely representing a point of view.

As to the other poster's concerns about "slandering" tournament players. Let me clarify. I do not believe tournament players are "douches". I play in WFB tournaments and yes, they're a great way to meet new gamers and see cool painted armies. (And, inevitably, there are few douches.)

What I mean is that tournament play drives a reductionist optimizing dynamic that results in a predictible pattern of list builds and pitched battles. (for WFB at any rate.) It's all about building the "death star" with the ueber combo of characters and gear. In 40K, as I gather from a number of sources, it's all Nob Bikkerz, Dual Lash, Big Seer Councils, etc these days. I've been told by a top 40k tourney player that it would be very difficult to build a Biel Tan aspect warrior list, as it isn't min-maxed enough to make it to the top table. That's what I mean. "Don't hate the playa, hate the game." In this, I've come to find the tournament dynamic and mentality counter to my personal interests.

I'll readily concede that my deep fondness for depth and breadth of Tolkein's world is why I find a "min-maxing", anything-goes approach ill suited for this particular game. Which are simply my feelings on the subject.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I would not use the Army of the Dead in a Gondor list - regardless of it's benefits and advantages. That's not how it worked in the story. The men of Dunharrow didn't "fight" they just scared the Corsairs off their ships. So they're not a combat unit. So that's how I roll. (As i've shared in another thread)

(PS - Of course orcs squabble, But massive battles? Cite something from blessed scripture of Tolkein. And, for that matter, how many civil wars did Gondor have? One. The exception doesn't justify the rule.)

With goodwill towards all and malice towards none.

AotE

CasperTheGhost
31-03-2009, 20:26
To add more credence to my thoughts, LotR tournaments appear to run as doubles with each team needing 1 Good and 1 Evil army;

Yes. Thats have every LOTR tournement has been played since the first one... :eyebrows:

The doubles tournement was always both players chose half the army themselves and add them together. For both Good and Evil. So you both have to have Good and you both have to have Evil. Otherwise one of you would be standing around doing nothing while the other game goes on :eyebrows:

As for tournements being set up. As far as I have heard WOTR is being run for GT and so its one person. I assume, like the GT we had this year for SBG, that you need both Evil and Good. I reckon that it will be about 1500-2000 points a side.

Doubles will be kept as SBG. Even is the doubles is WOTR then you need both Evil and Good for you both.

If your on about your friend buying Good and you buying Evil then you could do that. However, you would have to make it so the army would be able to split in two halves and so both be lead by a Legendary hero I believe. So it might be simpler just to get an army for both.

Casper

Rirekon
31-03-2009, 22:49
What I mean is that tournament play drives a reductionist optimizing dynamic that results in a predictible pattern of list builds and pitched battles. (for WFB at any rate.) It's all about building the "death star" with the ueber combo of characters and gear. In 40K, as I gather from a number of sources, it's all Nob Bikkerz, Dual Lash, Big Seer Councils, etc these days. I've been told by a top 40k tourney player that it would be very difficult to build a Biel Tan aspect warrior list, as it isn't min-maxed enough to make it to the top table. That's what I mean. "Don't hate the playa, hate the game." In this, I've come to find the tournament dynamic and mentality counter to my personal interests.

I play in Warmaster tournaments at the moment and I can say hand on heart that this just isn't true for all systems - it certainly doesn't apply to Warmaster.

@CasperTheGhost - Ok cool, cheers for the info :)

Avatar of the Eldar
01-04-2009, 00:11
I play in Warmaster tournaments at the moment and I can say hand on heart that this just isn't true for all systems - it certainly doesn't apply to Warmaster.

@CasperTheGhost - Ok cool, cheers for the info :)

I believe you. I would love to see that, actually. Sadly, I've not found anyone who plays Warmaster. And I'm at a very active LGS with a fair amount of committed gamers of various persuasions.

Again, tourney players are not "bad". And even tournaments themselves are not "bad". At bottom, they are contests and I'm interested having more simulation/ re-creation of big battles.

Those have objectives, special conditions, limitations, etc. Just a different play experience.

Bac5665
01-04-2009, 01:09
Avatar, I play WFB, and my club runs tournaments and even a GT, and we do better than almost any other group I've seen at keeping the things you complain about out. It really does come down to the players, not the system. I've seen fantasticly fluffy, friendly tournaments, and I've seen horrendous, WAAC, broken cheating "friendly" play. It really does just co me down the people playing, not the game.

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 17:46
The way some of the rules are written in WotR I could see some really annoying people try to exploit them. Fortunately, I just refuse to play those people in "friendly play", but you cannot avoid people in tournaments.

Rules I mean are like "nudging" units an inch or so to clean movements up, and saying that it is acceptable to shuffle things around a bit. Stuff we all do in friendly games and I encourage in the name of fair play, but that someone could exploit, and then point out in the rules as a defense when done in an unsportsman like way.

Rirekon
02-04-2009, 23:07
Someone could stab you in the face too, but that doesn't stop you leaving the house does it? Seriously, paranoid much.

CasperTheGhost
03-04-2009, 09:53
Just for your know how there is a tournament up Warhammer World on the 4th of May I believe. Its 25 a ticket and 2000pts for WOTR. Its for other systems as well but thought you might want to know that.

If you can get there that is.

Casper

Rirekon
03-04-2009, 10:32
Oohh excellent, where can I find the details for it? Had a look on the GW site and found nothing :(

CasperTheGhost
03-04-2009, 12:13
I'm not sure to be honest. I was only told by a couple of friends who are organising the trip up there (and organised the trip to the Great Devourer). I'll try and get some more information about it as soon as possible but I did notice it wasn't on the GW website. But then thats not a surprise :p

Casper

Nilhouse
03-04-2009, 13:49
Someone could stab you in the face too, but that doesn't stop you leaving the house does it? Seriously, paranoid much.

My "paranoia" is a reflection of the tournament players in my area.

If I lived in an area where people got stabbed in the face when they left the house, it might keep me from leaving.

Nu Fenix
03-04-2009, 19:08
I know at the end of May there will be a 1500 point WOTR event at Warhammer World, part of a competition between Coventry and Walsall, along with Fantasy, 40K and Apocalypse.
So, it will be interesting to find out how they organise Good vs Evil, and if 1500 is the right size for a tournament.