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View Full Version : Which mono-god army is the most/least "cheesey"



LKHERO
31-03-2009, 18:15
Even before the Daemon codex came out, I was hoping to start a all-Khorne army, but with all this hype about Daemons being overpowered, I was wondering which mono-color Daemon army would be the most/least strong.

I'm also kind of interested to see the best/worst multi-color armies.

My guess would be that best to worst mono-color would be Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaneesh. From my playing experience as a competitive High Elf player, I find that the multi-color armies (especially when mixing Lord/Hero choices) are the most effective.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 18:25
Erm depends how they are built and what army you play.

From a WoC (Tz) POV id say;

Slaanesh ld **** > Nurgle we dont die > Khorne all the hunds + thrister > Tzeentch magic spam.

From a vampires POV id say;

Tzeentch magic spam > Khorne all the hunds + thirster > Nurgle we dont die > Slaanesh LD ****.

See?

Rubicon
31-03-2009, 18:25
Not sure I fully understand the question, but here goes...

I don't think any of the mono-god builds are particularly weak, they have strengths and disadvantages same as any other list.

Mono-Khorne suffers from low magic defence, but with a BT and flesh hounds running around it becomes less of a problem

Mono-Slaanesh has weak core troops, But you can leadership bomb better than most

Mono-Nurgle is slooooooooow but nigh on unkillable

Mono-Tzeentch is the power dice spam list, but potentially weak in combat

None of the lists is particularly weak, or cheesy for that matter.

LKHERO
31-03-2009, 18:39
Not sure I fully understand the question, but here goes...

I don't think any of the mono-god builds are particularly weak, they have strengths and disadvantages same as any other list.

Mono-Khorne suffers from low magic defence, but with a BT and flesh hounds running around it becomes less of a problem

Mono-Slaanesh has weak core troops, But you can leadership bomb better than most

Mono-Nurgle is slooooooooow but nigh on unkillable

Mono-Tzeentch is the power dice spam list, but potentially weak in combat

None of the lists is particularly weak, or cheesy for that matter.

So the mono-god lists aren't cheesy compared to the multi-God, Kairos + Herald BSB + Skulltaker, Blue Scribes combo?

LKHERO
31-03-2009, 18:40
Erm depends how they are built and what army you play.

From a WoC (Tz) POV id say;

Slaanesh ld **** > Nurgle we dont die > Khorne all the hunds + thrister > Tzeentch magic spam.

From a vampires POV id say;

Tzeentch magic spam > Khorne all the hunds + thirster > Nurgle we dont die > Slaanesh LD ****.

See?

I fully understand what you mean W0lf, but let's pretend that it's overall which is strongest/weakest as opposed to individual specific army vs specific army builds.

Bac5665
31-03-2009, 18:43
No, they can be just as bad. Really, Slaanesh mono-god is by far the least cheesy, assuming no SCs (really, every single DoC SC is broken and taken one and being a douche are one and the same.) The problem with the others is that they so one thing so well that the game isn't interesting for either party; they're just dice rolling fests with the outcome determined beforehand based on lists and set up (usually in the favor of the DoC player.)

W0lf
31-03-2009, 18:57
Ok as a whole i guess id run with;

Tzeentch > Khorne > Nurgle > Slaanesh.

The SkaerKrow
31-03-2009, 19:01
No, they can be just as bad. Really, Slaanesh mono-god is by far the least cheesy, assuming no SCs (really, every single DoC SC is broken and taken one and being a douche are one and the same.) Oh come on already! There's a world of difference between "I really love this special character's model/story/gizmo effect and want to include it in my army" and "I am a WAACer who does not care whether or not my list makes for an enjoyable game for both me and my opponent." The end result may be the same, but they don't both quantify the individual who brought a DoC SC in their list as a "douche."

Bac5665
31-03-2009, 19:08
I agree that its sad. I love Tzeentch, and the only list that does his fluff justice is the DoC list, but I would be an absolute tool to run the list that sounds fluffy and cool to me. I would love for the Tzeentch DoC list to be balanced and entertaining to play, but its not, and no matter how bad I want to play it, I would be such a tool and loser, and I can't bring myself to do it (that and the lack of plastic horrors ;))

I agree that its a problem that people who like the masque's fluff can't use him because he is so good, but I really believe that it's true.

But you have a point that I was being a little melodramatic. But I still think that the fluff doesn't justify the sheer brokenness of the DoC SCs.

Mercules
31-03-2009, 19:09
I fully understand what you mean W0lf, but let's pretend that it's overall which is strongest/weakest as opposed to individual specific army vs specific army builds.

There isn't one.

You bring a Slaanesh army against something designed to use Psychology and it has an advantage.

You bring Khorne against a gunline with a lot of bait units and miring terrain it is at a disadvantage.

You bring all Nurgle against a maneuverable harassment army like WEs and it is at a disadvantage, but against a Bretonnian Knight force it is at an advantage.

I've destroyed an all Khorne list with my WEs using Tree Singing to move terrain in their way and shooting them to death then taking favorable charges after softening them up. Same army chewed through a High Elf force with knights and chariots which relied on breaking on the charge.

Nationalmaverick
31-03-2009, 19:58
There are very few played Daemon armies, monochrome or no that aren't considered by most veteran players to be beardy.

My main problem with Daemons is that special rules are few and rare and should remain that way, but every Daemon entry reads like a lord character.
Ward Save, Cause Fear, Immune to Psych, Killing Blow, Poison, Always strike First and so on for just their core troops with no upgrades.

Most armies will pay 40 or more points for any one of these for a hero character yet for 12 points you get a troop choice that reads like a 1 wound hero.

I think games workshop wrote this codex from a completely fluff orientated viewpoint, making them exactly as you read them, but gaming doesn't work like that you need balance.

Take Saurus for example, 8 Foot high, completely silent, immovable killing machines covered in horns and spikes and in combat an unbridled blur of violent rage, some what like a crocodile I imagine, and with an unshakable faith in their leaders and their mission and unwavering dedication to succeed at killing or die in the attempt, yet they are initiative 1, do not cause fear and are not immune to psychology because it would make them ridiculous.

PARTYCHICORITA
31-03-2009, 20:01
Mono Tzench is the most disgusting build ATM in 7th edition. Just endless and incredibly boring magic spam that requieres no skill to play.

Mono Khorne IMO is not cheesy at all since besides hounds and characters khorne's core and rare units are aweful.

Tae
31-03-2009, 21:55
Mono Tzench is the most disgusting build ATM in 7th edition. Just endless and incredibly boring magic spam that requieres no skill to play.

Sorry, but I'd rather play my friends Mono-Tzeentch list (inc. Blue Scribes, but no flamers or Kairos) than my other friend's Thorek gunline.

Give me a magic-spam army over an army that reduces my game to "I move half distance ... your turn" any day.

As for mono-gods, you can make most of them fairly cheese-free (relatively speaking of course) provided you don't take the obvious combinations. No Slaanesh ld-bombs, no Nurgle banner of poisoned wounds stacking, no Tzeentch Scribes+Kairos, etc.

Hell, most of my local gaming group don't consider my Slaanesh bomb list all that cheesey as the rest of the army are somewhat squishy.

W0lf
31-03-2009, 23:33
Mono Khorne IMO is not cheesy at all since besides hounds and characters khorne's core and rare units are aweful.

Has it ever occured to you to take min core and ignore the rare?

Clearly not.


Oh and FYI Blood crushers are not aweful with a Herald on Jugger (and every khorne list has at least one with bsb, right?). Its just they compete vs flesh hounds which are broken.

edit: why do people not realise to fairly judge these kind of things each list needs to be min-maxed. Ofc if you take balanced 'x' vs broken 'y' then y is going to seem better.

Charistoph
01-04-2009, 00:39
I would think that a Sigmarite army would be the least cheesy. No artillery, little in the way of ward saves. Cheap infantry. Anything anyone could want! ;)

selone
01-04-2009, 01:16
I would think that a Sigmarite army would be the least cheesy. No artillery, little in the way of ward saves. Cheap infantry. Anything anyone could want! ;)

hehe, good thinking ;)

Would a slaanesh army really have much success if you could combat terror tests at a big- LD penalty?

fubukii
01-04-2009, 06:37
There are very few played Daemon armies, monochrome or no that aren't considered by most veteran players to be beardy.

My main problem with Daemons is that special rules are few and rare and should remain that way, but every Daemon entry reads like a lord character.
Ward Save, Cause Fear, Immune to Psych, Killing Blow, Poison, Always strike First and so on for just their core troops with no upgrades.

Most armies will pay 40 or more points for any one of these for a hero character yet for 12 points you get a troop choice that reads like a 1 wound hero.

I think games workshop wrote this codex from a completely fluff orientated viewpoint, making them exactly as you read them, but gaming doesn't work like that you need balance.

Take Saurus for example, 8 Foot high, completely silent, immovable killing machines covered in horns and spikes and in combat an unbridled blur of violent rage, some what like a crocodile I imagine, and with an unshakable faith in their leaders and their mission and unwavering dedication to succeed at killing or die in the attempt, yet they are initiative 1, do not cause fear and are not immune to psychology because it would make them ridiculous.

nope instead they have cold blooded, a amazing armor save and a bucket load of str 4 attacks for a low pt cost :)

daemons have always had those special rules, but now all the sudden its a big deal? Undead have alot of specials rule and no one complains that gg or black knights are overpowered.

but back on topic, slannesh is probably the worst mono god, and tzeentch is probably the best. then again my mono tzeentch hates playing dark elves or high elves, dragon armor and the ring of hotek make the game a huge uphill battle

dal9ll
01-04-2009, 06:54
Mono-Nurgle and Mono-Tzeentch are the worst I think.

Mono-Slaanesh is probably the weakest.

PARTYCHICORITA
01-04-2009, 13:22
Has it ever occured to you to take min core and ignore the rare?

Clearly not.


Oh it certainly has; that leaves you with 4 units of hounds and probably a bloodthirster and maybe skulltaker running around. Not an easy list to beat but not a cheesy one IMO. I'm certainly not gonna cry or bored myself vs a monokhorne deamon army.

I feel that lists that can't rely on their core are always flawed and this feels like a flawed list to me.

Desert Rain
01-04-2009, 21:12
The mono-god armies seems to be less cheasier than the combined ones as they suffer from some weaknesses like great magic and low cc power (Tzeench) or slow but durable (Nurgle).
They are still powerful but if you avoid SCs you shouldn't get to many complaints.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 22:11
Tzeentch is kind of an exeption.

Really its quite hard to make a Tzeentch list thats fun to play against.

Bodysnatcher
02-04-2009, 18:32
I'd hope my list is fun. I certainly get plenty of opponents.

Again, I know the same guy Tae does, he has a mono-Nurgle list too. His Dwarves eat my Tzeentch. My Tzeentch burn his pusboys. They're all nemesis armies after a fashion - but I have to take some power reductions to do a pure army.

Jind_Singh
02-04-2009, 19:26
but back on topic, slannesh is probably the worst mono god


I heartily disagree! I thought the same, Slaanesh is LAME, weak core troops, specials, etc, their magic isn't as horrible as Nugle/Tzeentch....so I challenged an Empire friend to battle. Now he's been really stuggling against the Daemons - not so much that they are broken, but he hasn't adapted to their way of total warfare. So I asked him, "Which God would you like to face" and he instantly said Slaanesh.
So I made a 2250 Slaanesh list, 1 Daemon Prince, 3 heralds, 20 strong core units, 2 units of fiends, and 2 units of Seekers.
And I gave him such a thrashing it was scary!
It's is so important to control the movement phase, with all core troops marching 12", and EVERYBODY else moving 20" it's INSANE!
To make it worse the troops can take the siren standard - IT'S HORRIBLE!!!! The enemy can ONLY stand as a hold reaction -all of a sudden I'm not only out moving him, I'm also dictacting the declare charge phase, his fast cav are stuck, gunlines remain silent, he can't flee me, and the sheer number of attacks the units unleash is hell on him
Granted I struggled against the high armour saves, but with 12 strength 4 attacks with a -2 armour save (fiends) on his flank meant the end of the army.
By the end of the game he was wiped out!
Then to make sure it wasn't a fluke win I then took on the lizzies (wiped out to a cold-blooded reptile), vampire counts (Again I won, but I did take a unit of horrors, and a herald of tzeentch), another empire, dark elfs - all of which resulted in strong wins for Slaanesh. Yet against the same arimes with my mixed Daemon horde I'd have to play harder to pull off the win/draw.
The only army I really sucked against (4 times sadly) were the warriors of chaos - just can't beat those buggers down!!!
So Slaanesh played well is just as strong as other lists out there - and if I had taken the keeper of secrets, and etherblades for heralds......EEEKKKK!!!

fubukii
02-04-2009, 19:36
I heartily disagree! I thought the same, Slaanesh is LAME, weak core troops, specials, etc, their magic isn't as horrible as Nugle/Tzeentch....so I challenged an Empire friend to battle. Now he's been really stuggling against the Daemons - not so much that they are broken, but he hasn't adapted to their way of total warfare. So I asked him, "Which God would you like to face" and he instantly said Slaanesh.
So I made a 2250 Slaanesh list, 1 Daemon Prince, 3 heralds, 20 strong core units, 2 units of fiends, and 2 units of Seekers.
And I gave him such a thrashing it was scary!
It's is so important to control the movement phase, with all core troops marching 12", and EVERYBODY else moving 20" it's INSANE!
To make it worse the troops can take the siren standard - IT'S HORRIBLE!!!! The enemy can ONLY stand as a hold reaction -all of a sudden I'm not only out moving him, I'm also dictacting the declare charge phase, his fast cav are stuck, gunlines remain silent, he can't flee me, and the sheer number of attacks the units unleash is hell on him
Granted I struggled against the high armour saves, but with 12 strength 4 attacks with a -2 armour save (fiends) on his flank meant the end of the army.
By the end of the game he was wiped out!
Then to make sure it wasn't a fluke win I then took on the lizzies (wiped out to a cold-blooded reptile), vampire counts (Again I won, but I did take a unit of horrors, and a herald of tzeentch), another empire, dark elfs - all of which resulted in strong wins for Slaanesh. Yet against the same arimes with my mixed Daemon horde I'd have to play harder to pull off the win/draw.
The only army I really sucked against (4 times sadly) were the warriors of chaos - just can't beat those buggers down!!!
So Slaanesh played well is just as strong as other lists out there - and if I had taken the keeper of secrets, and etherblades for heralds......EEEKKKK!!!

true but slanesh is typically only good vs armies not imune to fear, play against anything that is and your army is fighting a huge uphill battle.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 19:38
true but slanesh is typically only good vs armies not imune to fear, play against anything that is and your army is fighting a huge uphill battle.

I agree. Fighting VC with Slaneesh is quite upsetting.

W0lf
02-04-2009, 23:20
Really?

Just siren song their general onto you keepers blade.

Tae
02-04-2009, 23:25
I'd hope my list is fun. I certainly get plenty of opponents.

Again, I know the same guy Tae does, he has a mono-Nurgle list too. His Dwarves eat my Tzeentch. My Tzeentch burn his pusboys. They're all nemesis armies after a fashion - but I have to take some power reductions to do a pure army.

It's certainly not the worst possible list it could be. And will continue to be thus so long as your flamers stay in their box :p

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 23:27
Really?

Just siren song their general onto you keepers blade.

I thought they were Itp?

Tae
02-04-2009, 23:28
I agree. Fighting VC with Slaneesh is quite upsetting.

I personally quite like playing VC with my Slaanesh, and not even for pulling the Vamps onto my KoS.

Look at their basic infantry and then look at yours. Sure they can re-raise stuff again, but you can keep massacring them in combat!

Hell, give me a bunch of craptastic Zombies or Skeletons over walking tin-can Warriors of Chaos anyday!

Tae
02-04-2009, 23:29
I thought they were Itp?

Siren Song doesn't say it doesn't work on people ItP. In fact, in this case, they have no alternative but to charge as due to ItP they can't chose to flee!

Oh and apologies for the multi-postings :/

W0lf
02-04-2009, 23:46
Crap infantry?

Ghouls are easily a match for Daemonettes with helm of commandment around. T3 5+ ward... mmm squishy.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 23:50
Siren Song doesn't say it doesn't work on people ItP. In fact, in this case, they have no alternative but to charge as due to ItP they can't chose to flee!

Oh and apologies for the multi-postings :/

Interesting. Have they FAQ'd it? I guess if that's what the majority says than that's what we'll go with.

Pulling them into a 15-group of Daemonettes with a Herald for ASF, then being hit in the flank by a KoS + Fiends and having its LD reduced by a Masque behind them.

Awesome :)

W0lf
02-04-2009, 23:57
Yes it was FAQed.

ITP units have to charge.

Tae
03-04-2009, 00:18
Crap infantry?

Ghouls are easily a match for Daemonettes with helm of commandment around. T3 5+ ward... mmm squishy.

I've yet to see (m)any Vamp players take a decent sized unit of Ghouls.

This included the recent Devourer Tournament held in Newbury which had about 200 or so players in.

But yes, I do conceed that used properly 'crappy' units can be made fairly dirty. However I'd still prefer them over Warriors, there's just no getting through that save!

LKHERO
03-04-2009, 00:36
I've yet to see (m)any Vamp players take a decent sized unit of Ghouls.

This included the recent Devourer Tournament held in Newbury which had about 200 or so players in.

But yes, I do conceed that used properly 'crappy' units can be made fairly dirty. However I'd still prefer them over Warriors, there's just no getting through that save!

Most VC lists have a good number of Ghouls on the Flanks of a single powerful anvil tarpit such as WS7 Grave Guards with a Wight King BSB + Drakenhof banner.

The bunker behind houses the caster lord with Helm of Command which is a serious pain for Daemon players that is not Tzeentch.

fubukii
03-04-2009, 01:37
Really?

Just siren song their general onto you keepers blade.

one problem is that the general is usually in a unit thats behind a unit with regen and therefore cant charge the keeper. But even if you do manage to have them charge your keeper, at the very least his unit has a champion also with regeneration, meaning your keeper will swing hit with 4 or 5, wound with about 4 and do roughly 2 wounds, losing by about 4.

LKHERO
03-04-2009, 03:10
one problem is that the general is usually in a unit thats behind a unit with regen and therefore cant charge the keeper. But even if you do manage to have them charge your keeper, at the very least his unit has a champion also with regeneration, meaning your keeper will swing hit with 4 or 5, wound with about 4 and do roughly 2 wounds, losing by about 4.

You sing into a unit of ASF Daemonttes with a Herald actually + Stubborn on the first turn banner. Then the next turn you hit them in the flank with either Flesh Hounds, Seekers or Fiends + a KoS. That's when your Masque will run up with your other Herald with the BSB behind the baited unit and inflict -5 LD on the target.

Ouch.

moose
03-04-2009, 13:26
Exactly, the daemonettes are there for baiting/receiving the charges, and the Mv20 units are there to flank and Ld bomb it.

Mono slaanesh is probably the best list against lists without much ITP, otherwise they're the worst.

In all;
Tzeentch > Khorne > Slaanesh > Nurgle

Bodysnatcher
04-04-2009, 00:02
In my opinion I think the all Khorne list is currently the weakest. It does dish it out like crazy, but it's in general a bit sluggish so ends up with fair fights.

Chaos don't do fair.

kdh88
05-04-2009, 06:41
With the exception of Mono-Tzeentch, which is going to be insanely magic heavy no matter what, it really depends on the specific matchup and army composition. Slaanesh leadership bombs are viscious against armies with poor psychology, and a BT+max hound khorne list would be rough, but you don't have to play the armies that way. A khorne list made up mostly of big bloodletter blocks, a couple of hound/bloodcrusher units for hammers and some furies for anti-gunline wouldn't be too terrible, for instance.

If you really want to put up the "This is not cheezy" flag though, field a Daemon Prince. They're absolutely terrible.