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Griffin
01-04-2009, 10:01
OK the rule reads:

For all leadership tests, models with the "Cold Blooded" special rule roll 3 dice and use the lowest 2 scores.

What tests do this apply to ? Break tests ? Panic tests ? Fear ? Terror ?
Does it apply to all tests that you normally role 2d6 on or just leadership ? Please help.

narrativium
01-04-2009, 10:19
"For all leadership tests"... it's exactly as it says in the rule.

Necromancy Black
01-04-2009, 10:38
Right, let's see if I can break this down for you...


Characteristic tests
___________|_________
| |
| |
Leadership others
______|_______
| | |
| | |
Break Rally Psychology
__________|____________
| | | |
| | | |
Fear Terror Stupidity Panic


Right, so anything from Leadership and down can use Cold-Blooded, as these are all subsets of the Leadership rule.

The only time this diagram breaks is with characteristic tests, as I don't think GW counts Leadership as one, but as a very specific kind of characteristic test.

EDIT:: going by the BRB, a Leadership test is most definitly a characteristic test, so the diagram (actually it's a tree) is fine.

Griffin
01-04-2009, 10:52
Awesome! - That is so cool - I had a really stickly opponent that said I couldn't - made me doubt myself.

Lord Khabal
01-04-2009, 10:59
Awesome! - That is so cool - I had a really stickly opponent that said I couldn't - made me doubt myself.

Was he a tzeentch player?? LOL:)

Griefbringer
01-04-2009, 11:11
Awesome diagram, Necromancy Black!

However, I would like to point out that the panic tests actually fall under psychology too.

Necromancy Black
01-04-2009, 11:15
Awesome diagram, Necromancy Black!

However, I would like to point out that the panic tests actually fall under psychology too.

Ah, your right, I'll change it.

Revlid
01-04-2009, 11:36
Does Stupidity fall under Psychology? I could have sworn it didn't in the latest edition, as being Immune to Psychology doesn't make you immune to Stupidity.

Also, spelling of Psychology. ;)

Otherwise, great diagram!

Gazak Blacktoof
01-04-2009, 11:41
Immune to psychology (ItP) is just the name of the rule, it doesn't actually make you immune to all psychological effects. ItP means you do not have to test for fear, terror or panic and where specifically noted it also renders you immune to certain spells and other effects.

Necromancy Black
01-04-2009, 11:43
It most definitly is a psychology test. Immune to Psychology only affects Panic, Fear and Terror as per it's own definition.

Fixed the spelling :p

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 11:43
Does Stupidity fall under Psychology? I could have sworn it didn't in the latest edition, as being Immune to Psychology doesn't make you immune to Stupidity.

Also, spelling of Psychology. ;)

Otherwise, great diagram!

Stupidity has always been under psychology, and ItP were immune to it last edition iirc (unless otherwise specified, like the VC crown or helm of many eyes).
Only thing that changed in this case is ItP.


Right, so anything from Leadership and down can use Cold-Blooded, as these are all subsets of the Leadership rule.

Nice diagram, but there's more things that fall under "leadership tests" than just those.. Like assorted slaanesh spells and gifts.
Which make up a third group in addition to break and psychology tests.

On that note though, what happens if phantasmagoria is active? Do you just roll 2d6 or 4d6 and remove the highest and lowest?

Necromancy Black
01-04-2009, 11:48
Nice diagram, but there's more things that fall under "leadership tests" than just those.. Like Pavane and Slicing Shards.
Which make up a third group in addition to break and psychology tests.

Don't those simply say take a leadership test? The diagram is mainly to show the main rules in the BRB and what they fall under.

Also, on a similiar note this does mean that enemy abilites that compair rolls to your leadership, like the casket of souls or banshees wail are not affected by Cold-Blooded.

Same goes for anything that says something like "Roll two dice and compair it to your leadership" instead of "take a leadership test".

EDIT:: is phantasmagoria that DE ability that makes you loose spells? That says it's a leadership test so both abilities apply. Roll 4d6 and drop the highest and lowest.

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 11:54
Temptator, Torment Blade, Allure of Slaanesh, Slicing Shards and Pavane of Slaanesh specifically call for a leadership test.
And that's just the daemon book.


EDIT:: is phantasmagoria that DE ability that makes you loose spells? That says it's a leadership test so both abilities apply. Roll 4d6 and drop the highest and lowest.

Phantasmagoria is a Slaanesh daemon spell that forces all enemy units to take LD tests with an extra d6 and discard the highest. EDIT: Lowest, obviously.. :D
Traditionally this sort of thing (which mostly happens in 40k though) is handled so that the abilities cancel each other out.

Necromancy Black
01-04-2009, 12:17
Well then there's nothing wrong them. They all call for leadership tests which are clearly on the diagram. It's only if there was a new kind of test create that the diagram would need to be updated.

I'd still play that both take affect for Phantasmagoria.

Lord Yawgmoth
01-04-2009, 19:27
I'd still play that both take affect for Phantasmagoria.

Yeah, its statistically different from ignoring the two rules.

--an example--
Insane courage:
Rolling three 1s on four dice: ( 21/1296) -> (7/438)
is harder than
Rolling two 1s on two dice: (1/36)------>(7/252)

~~~~math~~~~
(on rolling 4 dice and wanting three 1s
1111 =1 possibility out of 1296
111x =5 possibilities (out of 1296) that the first three dice are 1s
11x1 =5 possibilities (out of 1296)
1x11 =5 possibilities (out of 1296)
x111 =5 possibilities (out of 1296)
--------------------------------
21 out of 1296
~~~~~~~~~~~

conclusion: Roll those dice, take out the highest & lowest, and have more mid-ranged results (6/7/8)


EDIT: and Necromancy Black, : ) thats a rather cool chart you've got there.

Spirit
03-04-2009, 03:16
Phantasmagoria is a Slaanesh daemon spell that forces all enemy units to take LD tests with an extra d6 and discard the highest.
Traditionally this sort of thing (which mostly happens in 40k though) is handled so that the abilities cancel each other out.

I wish i could play a slannesh player that told me to roll 3d6 and discard the highest....

Nurgling Chieftain
03-04-2009, 06:04
Phantasmagoria and cold blooded co-exist just fine by RaW, 4d6 dropping the high and the low.

In 40K it used to be possible to have to make a psychic check on three dice and discard both the highest and the lowest, resulting in just one die left. :evilgrin: They FAQ'd that...

Deetwo
03-04-2009, 07:14
I wish i could play a slannesh player that told me to roll 3d6 and discard the highest....

Ah sorry, drop the lowest ofcourse :) typo :D

Masque
04-04-2009, 22:16
NB, there's still one common type of leadership test missing from your chart: rally.

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 23:50
NB, there's still one common type of leadership test missing from your chart: rally.

Dunno if it needs to be added or not. Rally is a leadership test, it's not subtype like psychology is. I might add it any way as there are items that give +1 to rallying.

Shamfrit
05-04-2009, 00:15
To ratify Phantasmagoria, Cold Blooded rolls on 3d6 removing the Highest, Phantasmagoria would indeed force 4d6 and remove the Highest and the lowest. Please don't resort to just rolling two dice though, you've a betters odds of holding if you roll all 4 regardless :D

Nurgling Chieftain
05-04-2009, 00:58
To ratify Phantasmagoria, Cold Blooded rolls on 3d6 removing the Highest, Phantasmagoria would indeed force 4d6 and remove the Highest and the lowest. Please don't resort to just rolling two dice though, you've a betters odds of holding if you roll all 4 regardless :DI'm pretty sure that your odds of holding on 4 dice dropping highest and lowest compared to two dice, is higher if you're Ld7+ and lower if you're less than 7. So, skinks would have it worse. That being said, there's no allowance to roll just two dice if you wanted to, anyway.

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 03:59
I'm pretty sure that your odds of holding on 4 dice dropping highest and lowest compared to two dice, is higher if you're Ld7+ and lower if you're less than 7. So, skinks would have it worse. That being said, there's no allowance to roll just two dice if you wanted to, anyway.

I was about to do the math out, but you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence :)

Staurikosaurus
06-04-2009, 07:48
I'm pretty sure that your odds of holding on 4 dice dropping highest and lowest compared to two dice, is higher if you're Ld7+ and lower if you're less than 7. So, skinks would have it worse. That being said, there's no allowance to roll just two dice if you wanted to, anyway.


Actually you would have to roll 4 dice according to the rules, but if you want to roll only 2 go ahead - you're only penalizing yourself.

As to the skink comment, another benefit of adding krox to the unit is a Ld of 7.

soots
06-04-2009, 07:52
How about stuff like "Blade of Realities", "Vampire gaze powers", and other tests that use Leadership?

I think the chart given is a bit vague.

Necromancy Black
06-04-2009, 08:02
How about stuff like "Blade of Realities", "Vampire gaze powers", and other tests that use Leadership?

I think the chart given is a bit vague.

They're leadership test!!!!! How hard is that to understand?

I something says leadership test then you get cold-blooded.

EDIT:: I've highlighted green everything that you can use cold-blooded for.

Things like BoR are a) Not part of the core rules nor to you have other items say "You may re-roll failed Blade of Reality test" b) such items state what kind of test is taken which are already included on the graph. If someone has a rule saying "Re-roll any failed psychology" then they are allowed to re-roll when hit byt the Blade of Realities!

Dungeon_Lawyer
06-04-2009, 10:38
The chart is fine(actually its excellant) as it is---people are nitpicking!