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Metheon
01-04-2009, 13:05
Hi all,

In Denmark we usually run army selection systems (especially for tournaments but also often for private gaming) in order to tone down some of the obvious balancing mistakes GW tends to be experts at creating.

The discussion was brought up in another thread (dw tactica) and I decided I wanted to create a thread to discuss it rather than cluttering up the tactica..

The system for this tournament is not yet set in stone but it should provide a solid ground for a discussion. Note that this is actually a very simple system compared to others. Also note the goal havent been to completely balance the armies but only to tone down the most ugly stuff out there. Here goes:

Overall

1750 points
FOC: HQ 1 / Elites 0-2 / Troops 2-6 / Fast Attack 0-2 / Heavy Support 0-2 (Note: Non-standard FOC!)


The following may be allowed upon request (i.e. is ok based on fluff of army list etc):

Allies
Imperial armor
Named / special characters


Synergy:

Max 1 duplicate in Elites / Fast / Heavy
No duplicates in HQ
Triplets other than troops are not allowed.


Speed:

Max 2 choices with WS and move 12"+


Booster:
You can break the rules above with the following booster once and only once (Necrons have 2 boosts).

One of the categories HQ / Elites / Fast / Heavy gains is a further choice
An additional doublet in either Elites / Fast / Heavy
Another choice with WS and move 12"+


Banned:
The following are banned from the tournament.

Lash of Submission
Feel no Pain at Nobs units
2+ choices with feel no pain on one or more models.
4+ Warlock on jetbikes
3+ Holofields
3+ Drop pods
3+ AV14 vehicles (IG excluded)
100+ models in the army (IG and Tyranids excluded)


So please share your view on this, also feel free to share your thoughts on what should be changed and/or added/removed. :)

The_Outsider
01-04-2009, 13:32
The following may be allowed upon request (i.e. is ok based on fluff of army list etc):

Allies
Imperial armor
Named / special characters




Speed:

Max 2 choices with WS and move 12"+


Booster:
You can break the rules above with the following booster once and only once (Necrons have 2 boosts).

One of the categories HQ / Elites / Fast / Heavy gains is a further choice
An additional doublet in either Elites / Fast / Heavy
Another choice with WS and move 12"+



These are the ones I question, do the danish have a inherent hatred for armies that move 12" or more? Restricting fast moving units is a really, really bad idea as it makes power armour worth more and more.

Letting imperial armour in is asking for all kinds of abuse as well.

Overall it is a fairly decent system, but some of those are just plain silly IMO.

Radium
01-04-2009, 13:56
I think it's a nice idea, but it doesn't really prevent cheese. It only sets a new standard for cheese, and prevents internet list copy-pasting.

Also, some codices are hurt more by this then is absolutely necessary (dark angels for example).

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 13:59
Basically.. That tourney is.. dont play a competetive army...

Dont play orks.. 2 good builds are smacked down bye it.

No lash ?

Limited selection ?

That tourney is a joke.

Gulbech
01-04-2009, 14:03
Hmm or maybe no restriction is a joke!

Most tournements in the scandinavien countries uses army selection, because we dont want to see only spam builds of the best units.

There are noting more borring then 2 lash deamons, 8 oblits and 3 units of plaugue marines. With som army selection you force people to use different units from the codex to get more balanced lists.
No doubt in my mind that it makes better and closer games.

Look at all other tournements its the same 5 build that take top 5 every time, thats no fun. Better when all armies get a chance!

Cheers

Thud
01-04-2009, 14:09
Overall

1750 points
FOC: HQ 1 / Elites 0-2 / Troops 2-6 / Fast Attack 0-2 / Heavy Support 0-2 (Note: Non-standard FOC!)


Synergy:

Max 1 duplicate in Elites / Fast / Heavy
No duplicates in HQ
Triplets other than troops are not allowed.


Two things.

First; the two things I've quoted do not make sense. There's no point in banning more than one duplicate in Elites, Fast and Heavy when you can only have two choices in each anyway. And 'no duplicates in HQ' is a little redundant when you can only have 1 HQ choice, non? Same goes for triplets, why ban them twice?

Second; I think these restrictions is a cop-out for people who can't handle playing against anything other than a standard Marine army.

Narf
01-04-2009, 14:12
what about wolves? at that points value i'm forced to have to take 3 HQ's just due to the Sw rules......

Xelloss
01-04-2009, 14:22
Army restriction makes me remember 3rd edition missions with their non-symetrical FOC...
The settings of this tornament seems a little complicated to me. But I kinda like the "you can negociate with some restriction" - better than a simple "no you can't".

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 14:33
That looks HARSH. But it's definitely breakable, everything is.

And what's with the max move of 12"? You mean like an army is only allowed to have three skimmers? GG for Dark Eldar.
Also Mech Eldar does fine, but they're far from so good it would need such restictions. Especially considering it kinda hurts Tau even more.

x-esiv-4c
01-04-2009, 14:41
I would simply not play in a tournament with so many restrictions.

[IGI]The Chosen One
01-04-2009, 14:45
I think army restrictions is the way to go. It might not appeal to all players but it will make for a much better gaming experience especially for new players.

However i think you are going a bit overboard. I was ok with most of it until i saw the banned list.

The best way to do this is to set up your restrictions, make a list with it as cheesy as you can for every army and see if that list is ok, at the same time not restricting the unit range.
But restricting things like Lash to a 0off and FNP on Plague Marines makes no sense. Its one thing to prevent cheese, but another to entirely limit the unit pool of those armies.

In the end you might not see that much cheese but everyone comes with the same army.You will hate out a (or **** off) lot of players who actually like balanced lists and simply play those units because they are 'cool' etc.

You need to lift the restrictions somewhat and set up a point system where a balanced army composition already gives you an edge over cheese players.

The_Outsider
01-04-2009, 14:49
The problem with restrictions is where do they end? Nerf lash/green tide and (for example's sake) foot aspect eldar steps up to be number one, so you nerf them then DE step up and be number one, so you change the rules again to stop them annihilating everything and suddenly you are left with one build per army assuming the army can even create a semi decent legal force at all.

Madigan
01-04-2009, 14:53
Too many restrictions. After a certain point you're doing more harm than good.

I can understand not wanting people to bring Lash and Nob Bikers, but telling an Ork player he can't bring Nob Bikers OR over 100 models in a 1750 game is pretty much telling someone they just can't bring Orks AT ALL. ESPECIALLY since IG and Nids aren't restricted by the 100 model limit... What?!?

*head asplodes*

Do your tournament organizers just want everyone to bring Rhino-spam Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines (non-Nurgle) and tank-spam Guard and then just not include all of the unique zenos races? Eldar and Dark Eldar without extensive use of fast skimmers? No all biker/jetpack/jetbike armies? No single-god Chaos armies (since bringing more than one unit of Plaguemarines is apparently "banned")?

Sorry, but if 40k were really set up this way at every public gathering I don't think I could stomach it.

Egaeus
01-04-2009, 15:00
Synergy:

Max 1 duplicate in Elites / Fast / Heavy
No duplicates in HQ
Triplets other than troops are not allowed.


Speed:

Max 2 choices with WS and move 12"+



OK, I do have to remember that you put in the caveat to break one rule so this might not be as bad as it seems...

I understand the idea of not wanting to see the spamming of units, but that really does hurt some armies more than others. Some armies just don't have as much choice in some areas.

There are some oddities in the formatting of some books that create potential imbalances. For example, the Marines just have a Predator, while the Black Templars still have them broken out as the Annihilator and the Destructor...does different equipment count as a different unit?

The restrictions on fast units seems odd, as it does make some armies better and some worse. With Run as part of the current rules most units can potentially move 12"...or is your intent to specifically restrict things that move more than 12" normally (of which I can't think of many...fleet and turboboosting are special movement modes)?


Booster:
You can break the rules above with the following booster once and only once (Necrons have 2 boosts).

One of the categories HQ / Elites / Fast / Heavy gains is a further choice
An additional doublet in either Elites / Fast / Heavy
Another choice with WS and move 12"+


Banned:
The following are banned from the tournament.

Lash of Submission
Feel no Pain at Nobs units
2+ choices with feel no pain on one or more models.
4+ Warlock on jetbikes
3+ Holofields
3+ Drop pods
3+ AV14 vehicles (IG excluded)
100+ models in the army (IG and Tyranids excluded)



So here we have a list of specific things that are considered
"unsportsmanlike" (I guess)...

It seems a bit odd that IG and 'Nids can Horde while Orks can't...it also seems a bit biased that IG can spam heavy vehicles and others can't (I would assume the argument here is that IG vehicles aren't all-around AV14 but that seems a rather specious reason). One also couldn't use a themed Drop-Pod army.

I understand that it's your tournament and you can make whatever rules you choose, and if this is what you feel is necessary to make it more balanced then no one can really say otherwise, but these are the few things that jumped out at me...it may just take a bit of clarification of why these are perceived as problems and how these rules will fix them.

My suspicion is that with certain restrictions in place people will just come up with other "cheesy" lists to fill the vaccuum. :angel:

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 15:00
Mono-nurgle daemons reign supreme.. :)
Guo + 54 nurglings + 3 daemon princes.. aand.. um.
Guess you could almost fill 1750 with that.

(you see how silly that list gets now?)

Fixer
01-04-2009, 15:02
I think you could probably balance most of 40k with the following rules changes:

Lash of submission:
Instead of moving the enemy unit and causing a pinning check, the target enemy unit has it's movement, WS and BS halved (rounding down) until the start of the next chaos turn.

Nob Bikers
A painboy on a bike does not confer 'feel no pain' to his unit.

holofields[B]
Soulstones and Holofields are now mutually exclusive upgrades.

[B]Jetbike Warlocks
I like your suggestion here. Limiting them to that number means they're just a unit that's far tougher, faster and versatile than a squad of thunderhammer terminators, but at least there's only a few of them.

Carnifex
Tyranids may field only one Carnifex as an elites choice.

sydbridges
01-04-2009, 15:08
Speed:

Max 2 choices with WS and move 12"+


Booster:
You can break the rules above with the following booster once and only once (Necrons have 2 boosts).

One of the categories HQ / Elites / Fast / Heavy gains is a further choice
An additional doublet in either Elites / Fast / Heavy
Another choice with WS and move 12"+


I think this looks at the Necron army and says, "You could have it worse. Let me show you..."

Everything in the Necron FA selection options, as far as I can remember, moves 12"+ and has WS (are Wraiths only 9"?). The only ranged AT besides the Monolith or the Nightbringer is Heavy destroyers - you'll want two squads, generally. And you generally want two squads of ANYTHING you bring, on account of getting benefit from WBB.

Basically, I wouldn't bring my Necrons to this tournament - it'd be begging for a beating. Wouldn't be too bad for my other armies, though.

bert n ernie
01-04-2009, 15:12
For speed:
Does this mean that if you total your WS and move range they have to equal more than 12"?
If so that number is too small as you will restrict certain units by too much. Instead you should either increase the total:
Max total of WS and move range combined is 17" before assault.
One two units like this.

Or you could restrict the number of points you spend on such things, as typically the very problematic units that fit this category are also huge points sinks.
Furthermore, if you are restricting Nob units and certain others already then why have an additional restriction on how many fast units you can have?

It seems to me that there are three possible routes:
Restrict certain items/units(i.e. lash) and set restrictions on numbers of those rare ones that can be too dangerous in groups (warlock bikers).
OR
Restrict the way people can construct their list. Approach this how you wish (either from a 'max points in this area' approach or some other one). Allow one 'free card' as you have suggested. This seems to allow for manoueverability within the list construction.
OR
Set specific limitations on each set of lists individually so that you can concentrate on particularly problematic situations, but not harm list that are already weak.
For instance Eldar are not allowed Eldrad, Seer council on Bikes (and whatever other problem unit you have in their list) but they are allowed one 'free card' so that one of these things may be taken. (perhaps still restricting the number of seer bikers for that particular one).

At the moment it seems you are approaching the restrictions from too many angles, and therefore they will lack focus allowing some problems to slip through while harming certain armies that really don't need it.

Count de Monet
01-04-2009, 15:41
I think it's a bit complicated. To be honest I doubt I would put the effort into trying to shoehorn an army into the restrictions, especially as I have so many armies that are basically a single list with no/limited substitution options.


FOC: HQ 1 / Elites 0-2 / Troops 2-6 / Fast Attack 0-2 / Heavy Support 0-2 (Note: Non-standard FOC!)
[/LIST]


How about something like:

Troops: 3-6
HQ: 1 for every 3 Troops choices, rounded down (max 2).
Elites/FA/HS: 1 for every 2 Troops choices, rounded down (max 3 each).



The following may be allowed upon request (i.e. is ok based on fluff of army list etc):

Allies
Imperial armor
Named / special characters


So some players would be allowed something based on their fluff but others wouldn't? Doesn't sound right to me. Maybe include a theme/comp scoring into the works, but don't allow one marine player but not another to take Pedro/etc.



Banned:
The following are banned from the tournament.

3+ Drop pods
3+ AV14 vehicles (IG excluded)
100+ models in the army (IG and Tyranids excluded)


Seem targeted at particular armies. Can't do an all drop pod army, but all deepstriking Daemons/teleporting terminators are OK? Why exclude IG from both, and tyranids from the horde?

Bunnahabhain
01-04-2009, 15:45
Too many restrictions. Far to many restrictions.

Various different armies rely on different parts of the FOC differently, and your proposed system cripples some,a nd leaves others untouched.

It also helps to really boost hose armies with good troops choices, as you can spam those without restriction, unless you're orks, in which case, you're banned from doing the green tide.

Also, I don't think it is possible to build a legal army list at all for Eldar, and probably several others as well. Any unit with fleet has WS, and can move over 12" and assault, therefore is subject to a cap of 2 units in the army....

In general, it won't cut out all the evil stuff you're trying to prevent, it will cripple or ban various perfectly reasonable and fluffy options- green tide, drop pod assault list.

If you want restrictions, then just directly ban various things, like double lash, 3+ land raiders, biker painboys etc, and don't try and generalise them, as you will get unintended targets. Fiddling with the FOC is generally not a good idea.

sydbridges
01-04-2009, 15:54
The following may be allowed upon request (i.e. is ok based on fluff of army list etc):

Allies
Imperial armor
Named / special characters


I missed the bolded bit until someone else brought it up.

There are three things capable of penetrating heavy (AV 14) tank armor at range in the entire Necron army. Two of them have restrictions/bans on them in your system (HDs move 12" and have WS, The Nightbringer is a named/special character). The third is the Monolith.

IJW
01-04-2009, 15:54
Note that this is actually a very simple system compared to others.
Seriously?!? I admit to not being a fan of army selection systems in the first place and would prefer a composition score, but I already find this one over-complex/fussy.

Also, there is a large amount of duplication in your proposed system - if you only have two of a given slot you can't have triple duplicates in that slot... Even with the 'boosters' (which is a mechanism I quite like, by the way), you still can't have a triplicate for EL/FA/HS unless you're using Necrons. In other words, 1/3 of your booster options aren't valid options. :(

Next, the banned list.
Feel No Pain is far far less powerful than it was in 4th edition due to the prevalence of plasma and equivalent weaponry, I honestly can't see the need to limit it to a single unit in the list - in fact, potentially to a single model in a 1750 list.
3+ Holofields - as it's impossible to get 3 Falcons in the first place (see the duplicates comments above), this is another unnecessary limitation.
3+ AV14 vehicles (IG excluded) - off the top of my head, this would only affect Terminator LR transports, Monoliths and Battlewagons anyway.

All-in-all, I find it over-complex and not that well thought out. Some of it seems like personal dislikes rather than an attempt to tone down power builds. In any case, the players who would have turned up with double-lash/PMs/Oblits will simply find different power builds which fit within the restrictions.

bora
01-04-2009, 16:03
I think bans are no solution. Almost everybody dislikes being censored.

A solution can only be reached by detailed modifications to the rules, like mentioned above already OR my putting increased point costs on people who want to bring too many models of a specific kind.

Somethign like "for every AV14 vehicle beyond the 2nd increase the point cost per AV14 model by 50%."

That way you do not ban certain lists, but certainly weaken them or make them tactically less viable, encouraging a better mix of units.

If someone still wants to bring his nob biker list of death, so be it. He will have to pay a significant amount of more points. I think this way is easier than writing new rules for every exception and limiting FOC.

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 16:21
A friend of mine suggested using the Bretonnian Wows system for duplicates.
Like say second HS duplicate price is 125%, third 150% and make troops increase kick in on fourth duplicate.
You could have that apply to specific things as well, like Lash.

I also have a tournament upcoming which has a sort of composition list as well, but nothing is banned, but rather gives -1 or -2 tournament points for some things.

There's a lot of ways to do composition rules, but straightforward banning is the worst of them.

Metheon
01-04-2009, 16:37
Just had time to answer a few things but I'll respond to more later tonight..



First; the two things I've quoted do not make sense. There's no point in banning more than one duplicate in Elites, Fast and Heavy when you can only have two choices in each anyway. And 'no duplicates in HQ' is a little redundant when you can only have 1 HQ choice, non? Same goes for triplets, why ban them twice?

The reason its there is due to the boosters which allows a second HQ (for example).


And what's with the max move of 12"? You mean like an army is only allowed to have three skimmers? GG for Dark Eldar.
Also Mech Eldar does fine, but they're far from so good it would need such restictions. Especially considering it kinda hurts Tau even more.

Its units with both weapon skill AND move 12" plus i.e. jumppack marines, bikes etc.


It seems a bit odd that IG and 'Nids can Horde while Orks can't...

Well tyranids pay something like 13 pts to get something thats still worse than a 6 pts ork :\

SPYDER68
01-04-2009, 16:38
or...

Its a tourney... dont be noobs (yes i said it) and learn to beat the so called *hard to beat armies* like duel lash and nob bikers.

It seems that the whole restrictions is just to kill these to builds.. and the 180 ork build..

nids can take 180 6pt guants!!! but.. orks cant ?

Named / special characters.. *Do not require permission* If a player wants to use them.. they use them, if it was meant to be restricted it would have been.

hmm lemme see as guard i could..

Guard command squad..

with 2x 3 las cannon squads.

then 2x 3 heavy bolter squads..

Inq squad in land raider...

battle tank..

Demolisher..

Got my 3 AV 14 tanks still in!

Then just fill in the blanks..

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 16:42
Its units with both weapon skill AND move 12" plus i.e. jumppack marines, bikes etc.

Oh now I get it.
So Dark Eldar are banned alltogether? (assuming you mean effective assault range by that)
Or does not fleet count?

What about marine themelists, White Scars? BA? Raven Guard? Ravenwing?

IJW
01-04-2009, 16:50
The reason its there is due to the boosters which allows a second HQ (for example).
As pointed out, the boosters don't help because you'd need to use two of them to get both a third EL/FA/HS slot/2nd HQ slot and another duplicate, so by your system this is only open to Necrons.


Its units with both weapon skill AND move 12" plus i.e. jumppack marines, bikes etc.
I still don't understand - do you mean the total of WS added to move? It can't be 'both weapon skill AND move 12" plus' because there's no such thing as WS over 10.

Grotsnik
01-04-2009, 16:53
This "restriction" BS is nothing more then a pathetic attempt to force one person's idea of what is fair on everyone else. :cheese:

Ya can't beat the hard armies so you find a way to avoid playing them. :mad:

Deetwo
01-04-2009, 16:54
I still don't understand - do you mean the total of WS added to move? It can't be 'both weapon skill AND move 12" plus' because there's no such thing as WS over 10.

I think it means units that have both a ws value and a movement of 12" or more. Still doesn't really make sense though :)

tuebor
01-04-2009, 16:54
I still don't understand - do you mean the total of WS added to move? It can't be 'both weapon skill AND move 12" plus' because there's no such thing as WS over 10.

He means things that have a WS in their profile and move 12", meaning only tanks can move 12" because they don't have a WS.

Thud
01-04-2009, 16:57
I still don't understand - do you mean the total of WS added to move? It can't be 'both weapon skill AND move 12" plus' because there's no such thing as WS over 10.

I think it is "units with a weapon skill value (ie, not vehicles) who are able to move 12 inches or more."


I still think the system is stupid, as it does more or less nothing to the standard Space Marine list, but pretty much bans Orks, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar and themed lists. The OP said the restrictions are there to prevent the typical builds who normally dominate tournaments, well, congratulations; now you have a tournament made up completely of vanilla Marine/Chaos lists.

IJW
01-04-2009, 17:02
OK, WS=/=0 AND move 12" makes sense. However... does this include units like Trukkboyz? They're a lot scarier than Assault Marines or Swooping Hawks, but the unit itself doesn't have M12".

Narf
01-04-2009, 19:11
instead of limiting people use the army selections system to reward people who plan a fluffy and fair army with army composition points which are then added to generalship scores

ie each person starts with 20 pts
for each tropp unit in the army above the 3rd add 5 points.
For each elite, Fast attack, Heavy above the 2nd - 5 points.
IF using a force completely mounted (tanks, pods, bikes etc) + 5 points
If spamming a non troop unit more than once -5 points
If taking identical wargear on characters - 5 points
If using a SC to create "fluffy" force - +5 points

This can be done to be fair to every army, and the items i listed above are only the basics, other stuff could be added or changed, and the points costs can be watever you like, but good to make good an bad choices similar in effect but +/-

This way WAAC players can play their army of doom, but they will probably end up with low army composition scores, whilst fluffy "soft" armies or balanced armies get higher scores.

This can really even out a tournament, along with sportsmanship scores, and painting scores, means that the top generals are usually at the top of the board, but if they are cocks with a WAAC army half painted then someone whose just gone for guard with lasguns and has them fully painted might finish above them

Captain Micha
01-04-2009, 19:16
Except some armies -still- need more than 2 Fa, 2 HS or 2 Elites -just to survive- at tournament.

Necrons are absolutely boned without three FA choices. (Scarabs are a must. And you -need- two of either Wraith or Destroyer squads)

Eldar would suck at just 2 Elites

And IG? I can't imagine Ig -not- fielding three Heavy Support given how... ehem special the army list is.

Does identical wargear mean naked squads? If so then again Ig are boned thanks to the Junior command platoons.

and some armies have some serious crap for troops.

I'm sorry but part of being a good general is knowing what units to field and knowing the kind of synergy they provide with their army. You can't change lists at tournament anyway so what you've got is what you've got.

Sportsmanship is something you can rate.

Whether someone is using a fully painted army or not is something you can rate.

Army choices? No.

Do you know what the best way to encourage balanced lists? Mission Variety. Play more than KP Annihilate

bert n ernie
01-04-2009, 20:05
Do you know what the best way to encourage balanced lists? Mission Variety. Play more than KP Annihilate

QFT.
On top of that, I still think that adding or removing points doesn't really help. It may reduce the effectiveness of a WAAC list in the overall meta-game of the tournament, but it does not stop some players from having a distinctly crappy time if they come up against one.
If it's a tournament in which players are encouraged to have themed and interesting lists then it will be infuriating if those players can still find themselves facing cheesy lists.

Metheon
01-04-2009, 22:12
These are the ones I question, do the danish have a inherent hatred for armies that move 12" or more? Restricting fast moving units is a really, really bad idea as it makes power armour worth more and more.
Interesting point, why is it that power armour gain so much by this?


I think it's a nice idea, but it doesn't really prevent cheese. It only sets a new standard for cheese, and prevents internet list copy-pasting.
Exactly my point of view as well. It also forces all armies into the same round hole.


Hmm or maybe no restriction is a joke!

Most tournements in the scandinavien countries uses army selection, because we dont want to see only spam builds of the best units.

There are noting more borring then 2 lash deamons, 8 oblits and 3 units of plaugue marines. With som army selection you force people to use different units from the codex to get more balanced lists.
No doubt in my mind that it makes better and closer games.

Look at all other tournements its the same 5 build that take top 5 every time, thats no fun. Better when all armies get a chance!

Cheers
This is definitly the ideal but maybe there is another way to make people bring balanced lists rather than strict rules. As you said though, we've run these sorta systems for at least 10 years around here (scandinavia) so not likely to go away that fast.


Two things.

First; the two things I've quoted do not make sense. There's no point in banning more than one duplicate in Elites, Fast and Heavy when you can only have two choices in each anyway. And 'no duplicates in HQ' is a little redundant when you can only have 1 HQ choice, non? Same goes for triplets, why ban them twice?
It's ONE duplicate per army if the duplicate is part of either elite, fast or heavy. So:
What you're saying: 2 dreadnoughts and 2 land raiders are okay - WRONG
What I am saying: 2 dreadnoughts are ok but no more duplicates - RIGHT

Does that make sense?


The problem with restrictions is where do they end? Nerf lash/green tide and (for example's sake) foot aspect eldar steps up to be number one, so you nerf them then DE step up and be number one, so you change the rules again to stop them annihilating everything and suddenly you are left with one build per army assuming the army can even create a semi decent legal force at all.

This is definitly a concern and that is why simple systems like this (yes simple) are starting to gain popularity over more complex and more restricting systems.


I think it is "units with a weapon skill value (ie, not vehicles) who are able to move 12 inches or more."

Yes.


congratulations; now you have a tournament made up completely of vanilla Marine/Chaos lists.
This is actually more or less exactly what is happening. You hit it spot on.


does this include units like Trukkboyz? They're a lot scarier than Assault Marines or Swooping Hawks, but the unit itself doesn't have M12".Yes truck boyz are not restricted in this sense. I have put forward a suggestion to include transports but still no answer in that area.

IJW
01-04-2009, 22:19
It's ONE duplicate per army if the duplicate is part of either elite, fast or heavy. So:
What you're saying: 2 dreadnoughts and 2 land raiders are okay - WRONG
What I am saying: 2 dreadnoughts are ok but no more duplicates - RIGHT

Does that make sense?
It makes sense, but it's not what's described in your first post. ;) A far clearer way to phrase it would be to say that within Troops you can have three of the same FOC choice, outside of Troops you can have only one duplication of FOC choices.

It also makes even more of the restrictions in the first post nonsensical.

Metheon
01-04-2009, 22:28
It makes sense, but it's not what's described in your first post. ;) A far clearer way to phrase it would be to say that within Troops you can have three of the same FOC choice, outside of Troops you can have only one duplication of FOC choices.

It also makes even more of the restrictions in the first post nonsensical.
You might be right. I think there is two things going on here. One is that we are sorta used to it by now so we would not misunderstand it like you do and also I used google translate to translate the system, only fixing the most obvious mistakes. :) Nothing is perfect I guess :)

Thud
01-04-2009, 22:28
It's ONE duplicate per army if the duplicate is part of either elite, fast or heavy. So:
What you're saying: 2 dreadnoughts and 2 land raiders are okay - WRONG
What I am saying: 2 dreadnoughts are ok but no more duplicates - RIGHT

Does that make sense?

I now understand what you mean, but there's no way in hell you'll get me to say that it makes sense. ;)


This is actually more or less exactly what is happening. You hit it spot on.

I must say that I am not very surprised.

prose.
01-04-2009, 23:25
Pretty much everything I came here to say has been said. I would never play in this tournament. In fact if I lived nearby I might even go out of my way to come in and berate all the organizers for being so bleeding foolish. Well ok that's hyperbole but think of the all the interesting armies that are flat out banned from playing:

White Scars, Ravenwing, Blood Angels Assault Company, Siege Deathwing, Ork Horde, Ork Speed Freaks, Ork Bikers, Ork Nobs, Ork Nob Bikers, Ork Armoured Krumpany, Space Wolves, Sicarus and his own frikkin' command squad, any marine special character influenced army for that matter, Dreadnought bash, Drop Pod themed Space Marines, Saim Hann Eldar, Iyanden Eldar, Aspect Eldar, Mech Eldar, The whole bleedin' Dark Eldar Daemon and Necron armies, Slaanesh Chaos Space Marines, Nurgle Chaos Space Marines, Tyranid Nidzilla, Tyranids in general, Remotely effective Daemonhunters or Witchhunters, All Grey Knights armies, All Sisters of Battle armies, Remotely effective Tau armies...

I could go on.

In short the only armies you are left with are rhino wall Space Marines and rhino wall Chaos Space Marines. What a fun tournament.

The army specific allowances and restrictions reek of playing arbitrary favourites. The allowance of allies/special characters/Imperial Armour based on "fluff" is a terrible idea. Who gets to decide what is good fluff? You? Me? Some "Fluff Judge" who allows you to enter your army in the tournament because you erased all your own detailed army fluff and then made it conform perfectly to Games Workshop's published materials?


I think these restrictions is a cop-out for people who can't handle playing against anything other than a standard Marine army.

This, basically. Restriction is the coward's tool. Variety of missions is where it's at.

njfed
01-04-2009, 23:26
Many people see the restrictions and dismiss the whole idea. I can see what this is trying to accomplish. However, getting people to play non-power builds at a tournament only works if you penalize the power builds or outlaw them.

My first response to this was to think up cool armies that I would love to play at a tournament like this. Know that the usual would not be there and everyone would be playing something different would be refreshing and challenging. The biggest problem is the cost of building an army that may only get used for tournament like this.

The idea of making duplicate units cost more is an interesting idea.

Another idea I have is have a uniqueness score that would be as important as winning games. If someone showed up with a CC Necron list that would be very unique.

Anywho, interesting idea.

sydbridges
01-04-2009, 23:39
congratulations; now you have a tournament made up completely of vanilla Marine/Chaos lists.


This is actually more or less exactly what is happening. You hit it spot on.

...Was that the goal? To make it into a marine v. marine tournament? Why not just put in the tournament rules, "All non-space marine armies banned" and achieve it that way?

bert n ernie
02-04-2009, 10:01
I'll second (third or fourth?) the idea of simply increasing the cost of those more problematic units to 125%, 150% etc.
I would still, personally, increase the cost of the particularly bad single options by 125% straight off the bat. I can only think of lash for this situation. This is something which is not necessarily a problem, but in combination with an entire army focused on taking advantage of it can be quite problematic.
Similarly for every three members in a seer council(or part of) after the first you increase the cost.
Seems like a good system to me, as no one is outright prevented from taking something.

Kaltenberg
02-04-2009, 19:49
In short the only armies you are left with are rhino wall Space Marines and rhino wall Chaos Space Marines. What a fun tournament.


Just to dispense with this silly arguemnt, then for your information, then no marine/chaos marine list has won any tournaments recently here in DK.
And as previusly mention, most tournaments have restrictions like the ones mention in the first post.

So however you put it, this does not make the only possible or viable build into rhino spams.
Atleast not if you aim to win :D

I sincely advokate that you take a harde look at the possibilities actaully still present within these limits.
Even though it's not the kind of armies you guys are used to.

prose.
02-04-2009, 22:32
haha "possibilities"

I've got to say I disagree mate. :) Look at the giant list of unplayable armies I posted. Most themed/interesting armies can not be built with these restrictions.

The question isn't "is it possible to construct a legal army with these restrictions that could take advantage of these restrictions and win a tournament," of course it's possible. The question is "why on earth would I want to play in a tournament that doesn't even let my race's codex compete on a level playing field and hugely favours some races and armies over others?" Why would a Ravenwing player, for example, care about this tournament? The entire army they want to play is illegal. Are they expected to go buy a whole new army?

As to your anecdote, I'm glad for you that the metagame in your environment doesn't present challenging MEq armies but it doesn't really change anything about this discussion.

And if most tournaments have restrictions like the ones in the first post than most tournaments probably... erm, suck.

Again: If you want people taking non-cookie-cutter lists, get creative with the missions.