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Reiksguard
01-04-2009, 14:25
Hi folks, was wondering if i could get some feedback on my WotR list.

Prince Imrahil

2x Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth w/ captain

3x Knights of Dol Amroth w/ captain and horn blower

2x Warriors of Minas Tirith w/ captain

2x Axemen of Lossarnach w/ Forlong the Fat

2x Clansmen of Lamedon w/ Angbor the Fearless

3x Blackroot Vale Archers w/ Dunhir and banner bearer

I've played a handful of battles with this load out and its seemed to do pretty well. I was originally worried about how i would perform against monsters but the big uglies aren't as problematic as I feared; Dunhir's boys stand a fair chance of shooting down trolls (or at least hurting them) before they reach my line and the clansmen or axemen can crack open big nasties that manage to close. The only major issue I've found with the army is that running an MSU style list is pretty risky in WotR, however since I'm trying to take a wide variety of units and maintain a "coalition of the willing" sort of theme I'm willing to work around the inherent disadvantages.

Any comments or critiques would be appreciated!

takaetun
01-04-2009, 23:18
I'm guessing that your main opponent would be Harad then? :P

MSU is my big concern, but the other thing I'm wondering is how the Knights do. I assume Imrahil is with them, but my big worry is that if I had a whole bunch of fairly mediocre infantry (that is to say, most men), and one big nasty unit of Knights with a god-like hero leading it, it would be very tempting to just send them on their merry way to mess stuff up, leading him to be isolated and violated by pretty much anything.

Reiksguard
02-04-2009, 00:02
Well you pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to the knights. It requires a fair bit of discipline to resist the temptation to let them barrel towards the enemy by themselves but I've learned from bitter experience that to do otherwise is to invite disaster. On the plus side Imrahil's inspiring leader ability provides a little extra incentive to keep the swan knights in reserve.

dtjunkie19
02-04-2009, 03:14
What do you plan to do against magic heavy lists?

Ex. a Two Nazgul fallen realms list :P

takaetun
02-04-2009, 03:20
Deal with it very well, I assume. He has seven heroes, he should be able to resist a fair amount of magic, which isn't as overly powerful as people seem to believe - we seem to roll a lot of ones when casting, and never seem to get that second one off.

dtjunkie19
02-04-2009, 03:24
Haha not as well as you'd think. I played his Fiefdoms list and khamul had a field day on him. Might is his armies strong point, but using some low focus spells seems to almost always get me 2 or 3 spells off. Then its his choice if he burns the might to try to stop it. Even then it may get through. I ended up getting off my magic enough to stop his units a few key times.

Now I'm thinking of adding the shadow lord as well, nasty.

I agree its not overly powerful but it can really turn the tide in a battle with some good rolls. And Nazgul are still good for combat as well. (Epic Strike/Heroic duel with captain).

However in all seriousness the list is quite strong. Those blackroot vale archers are just painful, especially in defensible terrain. It is a bit of a fragile army. I would recommend using refused flank setups, that way you dont have to be spread so thin across the field

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 13:48
I agree its not overly powerful but it can really turn the tide in a battle with some good rolls. And Nazgul are still good for combat as well. (Epic Strike/Heroic duel with captain).

Don't "normal" Nazgul only have a single might point? If so, you could only call a single action, either the Heroic Duel or the Epic Strike; though, I'm sure there is a captain stupid enough to call a Heroic Duel against a Nazgul...

Anyway, neat list, though I agree that the MSU is very risky, especially againt cavalry heavy lists with lots of captains calling heroic combats or getting lucky on thundering charges.

dtjunkie19
02-04-2009, 15:46
The nazgul calls epic strike, the captain calls the heroic duel and since he is in the formation of the nazgul gets fv 10. At least thats the way we've been interpreting it in the store by me.

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 16:27
Hrm, I hadn't thought of that! Interesting strategy!

Reiksguard
02-04-2009, 17:26
Read the rule carefully... epic strike raises the epic hero's fight, not the formation's. Thus while his company would gain extra attacks via the battle skill modifier another hero couldn't use the Nazgul's fight in a challenge.

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 17:31
That is what I had thought previously, but I don't have the rules with me today. I will have to read more on it this evening.

Does anyone know if the Nazgul's ghost touch (forgot the exact term) ability really does anything if they are in a formation? I have not been able to figure out how it would work.

Reiksguard
02-04-2009, 17:46
In order for an epic hero to use an ability marked as a "Special Rule" the unit must also have that ability.

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 17:53
So it does nothing really?

Reiksguard
02-04-2009, 22:26
Pretty much, unless the Ring Wraith is with some other undead badies.

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 00:19
However, epic strike raises the hero's fight which in turn can be used by the company in which he is in for that fight phase. So the tactic still does work, we worked it out in the store today.

Since the captain is part of the company with the ringwraith (not an epic hero, but an upgrade of the formation) he also fights at fv 10 for the phase.
It may sound a little DBish, but epic strike on a hero with 1 might? pretty much ridiculous he can't use it to good effect, except in this manner.

Honestly, the whole hero's special rules dont apply to the whole unit is just a complete oversight. Essentially they dont even need to be there at all.

Reiksguard
03-04-2009, 00:27
Nope... that is total ********. One hero's fight has nothing to do with another hero's fight in an a duel.

P.S. I do however believe that enhancer skills such as Epic Charge might apply in a duel...

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 00:32
Why not? Im fuzzy on what I read now but I went in today to look and ask about it, but esentially models in the same company as a hero can use his fight value for the phase. Part of the phase includes duels. So the other hero, who is part of the company, benefits from this just as if he was in the company.

edit: He actually is in the company. Not just as if

takaetun
03-04-2009, 00:33
Yes it does. You and I each roll a D6 and add our respective fights. If you're fight 10, you add ten to your roll.

Reiksguard
03-04-2009, 01:41
Well I'll have to go in and check the book tomorrow... if you fellas are right I might as well just start melting down my models so i can mold them into musket balls and fire them at the British.

Nu Fenix
03-04-2009, 02:07
That would be a waste of models!

Feel free to fire them at us by catapult, so I can retrieve them afterwards and use them for myself :) I wouldn't say no to a free Gondor army.

takaetun
03-04-2009, 02:10
Wait, what? What exactly is the problem sorry? A little tired, seem to be missing the issue a bit...

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 02:27
Mike is just upset that my nazgul/captain units of easterlings will be smashing through his fiefdoms with an epic strike/heroic duel combo.

Although Imrahil doesnt have epic strike? That would even the playing field

takaetun
03-04-2009, 02:40
Remember that you use the models fight value in a duel, so if a wraith uses Strike and the captain duels, the captain will only be fight 5 or so.

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 03:03
ill have to check it again, the interpretation that was accepted by everyone at my GW store was that a heroes company can use his fv during the fight phase. so means effectively they have the heroes fight value while he is in that company. Since heroic duels are part of the fight phase the captain can duel at the fv of the hero.

Now I admit its definitely possible this is incorrect but it seems thats how the rule works out. If not, the rules for nazgul make little sense. Epic strike on a hero that cant duel another character if he uses it? I mean thats what its purpose seems to be.

Edit: Think about it like this. My easterling swordsmen are charging into warriors of minas tirith. Khamul is leading them, his terrible presence filling them with wonder. Behold the terror and power of the dark lord Sauron, manifest in his closest minion. The lines clash, and immediately khamul makes a strike at lightning speed, jumping and twisting in the air in a graceful motion and brings his sword down hard, his sword striking violently across the shield of the enemy, causing sparks to fly. The warriors around him are inspired by this show of his power and begin to fight with renewed and doubled purpose. The Captain then comes across the captain of the enemy. Eager to prove his worth to the Dark lords greatest servant, the captain challenges the enemy captain to a duel. Fueled by his hatred of the weak men of the west and inspired by the performance of his lord, the captain fights beyond his normal capabilities.

takaetun
03-04-2009, 04:53
Think of it instead like this:

Khamul raises his fight value to 10.
The captain is now in a duel.
The captain is not Khamul. Ergo, he does not have fight 10.

Remember that it's not the company fighting the duel, it's the individual. Will explain further in a bit, writing this on my phone.

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 05:08
I believe it says the company may use a heroes fight value in the fight phase. A captain is part of the company, specifically he is an upgrade since he cannot be bought without the formation. Therefore he is essentially fight value 10 for the duration of the phase.

takaetun
03-04-2009, 05:52
The Fight Value of a character does not represent his inspiring aura, as you were saying earlier - that is represented by their Courage, or special abilities (such as the Witch-King's). The fight value of a character represents simply how much butt they can kick in combat.

The company uses a heroes fight value in combat, yes. However, in a duel, you roll a D6 and add 'their' fight value - not the fight value their company is using. Epic Strike bumps your fight value up to 10, so you would roll D6+10. If you are standing next to a guy who is suddenly flailing around ready to tear the crap out of the enemy, your skills don't increase.

Jorgen_CAB
03-04-2009, 05:58
Seems as a ridiculous rule to me if it works like that, to easy to abuse like described where you give the fight value to the Captain in a duel. You give the company a Fight Value of 10, that is fine... because it give the unit extra attack in close combat. That is the same as any hero can do for its company. I really do not see the logic of transferring that bonus to the captain in a duel against another hero.

This would be a very abusive rule in my opinion. Go figure that lowly goblin captain will now strike down Aragon in a duel just because the Nazgul is close by. Does not sound very LotR to me....

dtjunkie19
03-04-2009, 06:24
aha but Aragorn can epic strike right back and even things up

Meh on the rule I still think it can go either way but ill just play it as whatever the consensus of the store by me is. I will also reread the sections in question to see if they answer it one way or another definitively.

Spider-pope
03-04-2009, 08:16
I'd expect that will be FAQ'd quite quickly. The way i read it concurs with Takaetun- that with a duel its irrelevant what else is in the combat its meant to represent the two combatants squaring off seperate from the rest of the fight.

When you look at it that way, to use it the way others have suggested would be the equivalent of Aragorn standing next to the captain yelling encouraging slogans at him."feel the burn!" "Whack that orc!" "No! Parry Left!". This is War of the Ring not Rocky VII.

Until a FAQ does appear the best thing to do is discuss it with an opponent and agree what it should do. As long as you both follow the same interpretation for the game, its still fair.

Nilhouse
03-04-2009, 12:39
I'm in the boat of you cannot combine it. The increased Fight score from Epic Strike is representing that hero's combat ability swaying the battle, not him inspiring the troops to further heights. That is why when the enemy strikes back they still hit at your normal fight score.

It also explains why characters like Gil-Gilad are so expensive with their built in Fight 10 (and 6 might?) and few other abilities. They will beat almost anything in a duel.