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Draco74
01-04-2009, 17:24
I had been reading about the Vamp Doggy "Death Star" and was wondering if the Mortals could do something simular with Warhounds.

I guess Mortals can actually do them one better.

15 war hounds (they aren’t fast cavalry but they get ranks) with a Lord of Khorne on a Juggernaught with Regeneration and armor that give him a 4+ ward vs. non-magic attacks and flail. He has a 1+ armor, 4+ ward and regeneration (that is worse then the Great unclean one). A BSB with the Blasted standard (unit gets 5+ ward save vs all attacks in the shooting phase. Sorcerer with collar of Khorne (gives unit MR2) and warrior familiar (1 S5 hit before combat starts) and a sorcerer with Blasphemis amulet (all enemies in base contact at beginning of friendly magic phase must pass a T test or take a wound with no armor saves).

Because the Juggernaught takes up 2 spaces the whole front rank is heroes and lords so they can’t attack the hounds unless they flank or rear charge. The unit has MR (2), and a 5+ ward save vs. all attacks in the shooting phase. Lord will always have to issue challenge and that leave the enemy rank and file to attack the others which all have a 2+ armor save. Now an enemy character could let the unit champ take the challenge and then attack a sorcerer, but then they can only score a max of 2 wounds.

So I would get +1 for BSB, +1 for outnumber (US 38) and +3 for ranks (if no hounds are lost to shooting before combat) and then what ever wounds I cause. Lord has 6 S7 and 2 S5 attacks in first round so he could score up to 6 CR from a unit champ, BSB has 4 S5 & 1 S4, the sorcerers would have a total of 6 S4 attacks. Total attacks on turn one would be 6 S7, 6 S5 & 7 S4.

I am sure it would be easy to lead this around or beat it with a lot of shooting, but it seems to be a rather tough unit. Just would be really bad if some one hit an IF Infernal Gateway on it (bye, bye half your points).

You can bet that this would be no fun to play against, but if you are going against some one else that is always using their own "Death Star" it might be a nice suprise.

SiNNiX
01-04-2009, 17:34
Sounds like fun but the fact remains that it still is a deathstar which involves alot of pros and cons, too many for consistent wins in tournaments imo. I won't get too much into it and yes, it would definately be fun to use and wouldn't necessarily lose every time, but if you look at the big-name tournament-winning armies, they all have reliability in common. Deathstars work against some lists but are fatal against others (i.e. armies with plenty of flanking creatures or shooting) and in order to have an army that you can say is reliable against any situation, you can't use a deathstar. Maybe that's just me, though; I'm very picky with my armies and always ask myself after I'm finished, "okay, what could beat this list and how do I change it to avoid that situation?"

Definately fun to play around with. :)

jax40kplyr1
01-04-2009, 17:39
It would be interesting - definately another "doggie list". I think that the frenzy from the Lord might be an issue - can't exactly remember the unit movements for the juggernaut, barded chaos steeds and hounds, but I'd be worried about the Lord on Jugger getting baited to have to charge out of the unit. The other big difference I think is the fast cav portion, as compared to the VC unit. Because your unit size is going to be so long, maneuvering it will be difficult, as well as your pretty much guaranteed to have to hit units in the front. VC fast cav unit though can maneuver their guys to whatever angle they want within moving distance - then Vanhel's into combat.
Either way though - good idea!

Tizz
01-04-2009, 17:39
If you gunna make a Chaos Death Star just do Knights or Trolls

Draco74
01-04-2009, 17:50
All the move ment on the parts of the unit are M7 charge 14.
If you didn't want to worry about the frenzy, then just make the Lord of Tzeentch on a demonic steed. no frenzy and now you have 3+ armor, 3+ ward vs. non-magic attacks and 4+ reg. then you can't be baited. Also if you want them to be fast cavalry, then change the hounds to marauder cavalry of tzeentch. They are more exspencive and don't get ranks, but then you are fast cavalry, can add a banner and get a 4+ ward vs all shooting attacks.

The reason not to use knights is the cost. The lord and heros alone run around 900 pts. Hounds are 6 pts and cavalry are 13. Remimber, the front rank should be the only one in combat, the rest is just there for unit strength, ranks or extra banner. Using Knights would be a waste.

Draco74
01-04-2009, 17:51
Also, Trolls have a M4, they would be easy to avoid.

Draco74
01-04-2009, 18:17
You could also add in a few gifts to help.

Give the lord on the Jugger/Demonic steed:
(Diabolic Splendor (35) – Any Panic, Fear or Terror tests caused by the character or his unit suffer an additional -1 modifier.)

Add one on the sorcerers:
(Soporific Musk (20) – When a unit flees from this character or his unit, the fleeing unit rolls an extra D6 and discards the highest roll.)

Now the enemy is at a -1 Ld to charge you or when they are being charged and when you beat them in combat they don't run as far and you have a better chance of overrunning.

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 19:58
How about...

- Archaon
- Exalted of nurgle on daemonic steed, flail, shield, armour of damnation, favour of the gods
- Exalted of tzeentch on barded steed, flail, shield, BSB, blasted standard
- L1 sorcerer on barded steed, 2 scrolls (not in front rank)
- 10 or 15 marauder horsemen of tzeentch, flail, light armour

Lay-out: BSB in the center, Archaon and the Exalted on daemonic steed at the sides (to help with flanking opponents)

Flanked by two units of 6/7 khornate knights (maybe with war banner and banner of rage + mark of nurgle) screened by warhounds.

Amounts to about 2000 points, I estimate.

5 PD, 4 DD (2 scrolls)

Advantages:
- fast cavalry (M7 unfortunately. I don't think it's worth putting the BSB on a steed of slaanesh)
- you can reroll pursuit dice
- MR 2
- Massive VP denial(!)
- Archaon can chop down a horseman if he needs to (due to rolling a 1)
- -1 to hit the unit ranged and -1 to hit in CC
- 4+ ward against shooting
- general is safe
- radiates 18' LD 10 and 12' rerolling break tests
- +1 to roll for first turn guaranteed

You're not immune to psychology, but considering Will of Chaos on LD10 and causing terror, it shouldn't be a problem really.

I'm going to try this (after warning my friends). I don't expect this list to win tournaments, but it might be worth a try for the shock value.

Draco74
01-04-2009, 20:18
Wow! I thought mine had a lot of points in the unit.
You just need to find 2 more small core units.

2 x 10 naked maraders at 40 pts each.
They are just there to watch the show.

Jericho
01-04-2009, 20:24
I'd make the Marauders MON personally, -2 to shoot at them :evilgrin: Sorc could be MON as well, to hope for Fleshy Abundance.

sulla
01-04-2009, 20:29
Why would you use dogs when you could use marauder horse. A little more expensive but fast cav and with the cheap as chips mark of slaanesh, they never take a test for terror, fear or panic. Plus, they can get a standard and musc.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-04-2009, 20:39
I like it better as a cheap non-Deathstar.

Take 19+ dogs with a mounted exalted hero, minimally equipped (shield&halberd, perhaps).

This unit is only slightly more expensive than a typical block of grunts. It has M7", and usually claims a static CR of 4 - 3 ranks and outnumbering (US40+!). Then, the Exalted attacks...

It's like a solid block of cheap grunts, except it moves fast!

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 21:05
I like it better as a cheap non-Deathstar.

Take 19+ dogs with a mounted exalted hero, minimally equipped (shield&halberd, perhaps).

This unit is only slightly more expensive than a typical block of grunts. It has M7", and usually claims a static CR of 4 - 3 ranks and outnumbering (US40+!). Then, the Exalted attacks...

It's like a solid block of cheap grunts, except it moves fast!
Your dogs will merely serve as cheap CR for the enemy while your exalted will be busy challenging unit champions.


Wow! I thought mine had a lot of points in the unit.
You just need to find 2 more small core units.

2 x 10 naked maraders at 40 pts each.
They are just there to watch the show.
Oh yeah, of course.

MarcoPollo
01-04-2009, 21:07
There are two main reasons that this won't work well. First off, it is incredibly huge. Imagine the "footprint" that a unit of this size will have. The flanks of that thing will be huge. You won't be able to move around anything. Secondly, any smart general will just position a sacrificial unit on an angle so that the unit is forced to charge it and expose its flanks. Then with all the extra units the opponent will have, he can hit those large flanks and expose those puny doggies to alot of pain. Good by unit.

Imagine making a movement template for that strategy. You'll see what I mean.

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 21:12
I'd make the Marauders MON personally, -2 to shoot at them :evilgrin: Sorc could be MON as well, to hope for Fleshy Abundance.
I've considered that, but a +1 to ward save is usually better (and slightly cheaper) than another -1 to hit, especially since you're a great target for war machines. Plus, the marauders won't be in base contact with the enemy*, so the -1 to WS is useless (the exalted does it instead).

IMO a mark of nurgle on the sorcerer is a waste of points, as he won't have LOS and there is only a 1/6 chance of getting fleshy abundance. If you do, it will get dispelled anyway.

*: someone mentioned putting a standard in the front rank, but that will enable the enemy to slaughter the marauders for cheap CR.

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 21:16
There are two main reasons that this won't work well. First off, it is incredibly huge. Imagine the "footprint" that a unit of this size will have. The flanks of that thing will be huge. You won't be able to move around anything. Secondly, any smart general will just position a sacrificial unit on an angle so that the unit is forced to charge it and expose its flanks. Then with all the extra units the opponent will have, he can hit those large flanks and expose those puny doggies to alot of pain. Good by unit.

Imagine making a movement template for that strategy. You'll see what I mean.
It is of the same size as the doggie deathstar and it has knights nearby. Each flank has a killy character in it too.

Anyway, why would the chaos player charge that sacrificial unit (unless he intends to overrun into another unit)? The horsemen deathstar is not frenzied.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 21:19
Why does the Vampire counts 'doggie deathstar' work.

Dire wolves are;

M9
Fast cav
Have regen (in the unit)
Cause fear
are immune to psy
can be raised.

Funny enough i dont think the chaos version would work.... at all.

MarcoPollo
01-04-2009, 21:59
Why does the Vampire counts 'doggie deathstar' work.

Dire wolves are;

M9
Fast cav
Have regen (in the unit)
Cause fear
are immune to psy
can be raised.

Funny enough i dont think the chaos version would work.... at all.

Exactly. Direwolves can do the job much better.

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 22:17
Note I'm playing devil's advocate here, but...

Why does the Vampire counts 'doggie deathstar' work.

Dire wolves are;

M9 8 because of the nightmares. Only 1 point more
Fast cav check
Have regen (in the unit) -1 to hit + 4+ ward vs shooting
Cause fear archaon causes terror
are immune to psy terror, LD 10 and will of chaos = practically same thing
can be raised. very important advantage over horsemen, true

Funny enough i dont think the chaos version would work.... at all.
They can be raised, but they are not horselords and do not have ranks. Also, marauder horsemen can dish out some damage without the characters' support.

A big difference between the two lists is that the chaos one should aim for VP denial, while vamps are just overall better (magic items, spells, points value). In essence, VC are just better than WoC.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-04-2009, 22:19
Your dogs will merely serve as cheap CR for the enemy while your exalted will be busy challenging unit champions.Well, that's true if it charges spear saurus in the face, but with M7 and a reasonable price tag, I can afford to flank units I can't crush straight-on.

W0lf
01-04-2009, 22:25
Regen > 4+ ward vs shooting + -1 to hit. Its in combat and vs crumble that it counts.

Oh and the reason the hounds cause fear is significant is for Auto-break. Aracheon dosnt gift that.

Witchblade
01-04-2009, 23:41
Crap, you're right. I thought fear transferred in full, but it is only the immunity vs other fear checks. That kills the tactic.

_Kalas_
02-04-2009, 08:26
I'm gonna try to use exalted on jagger+hounds as a "ward" against shooting.
Will of chaos with Ld8 should deal with panic tests, they not gonna charge with him, they just gonna die to all kind of missiles.
More a "death catapult" than a "death star" :evilgrin:

The Red Scourge
02-04-2009, 13:03
The dogs are great for shielding mounted characters. The "Waroof Sir!" rule can protect them from artillery, as warhounds have the canine characteristic of jumping to grab fast moving flying objects ;)

This will keep the points cost of your individual units down – a character in a knight unit will easily provide a 500 point target, and 6 pt. dog is a lot better cannon fodder than a 40 pt. knight. WoC characters are also hitty enough to pack quite a punch by themselves, and they can easily charge out of the unit and leave the dogs behind – lates FAQ even forces people to S&S at the dogs :evilgrin:

I've done this quite a lot and with great success. Its coined the Doggy Delivery Service, but you have to take care of those flanks :)

Witchblade
02-04-2009, 13:32
I prefer marauders as my nurgle sorcerers' bodyguards. They are actually capable of fighting and they don't take up as much space. Warhounds are also too easy to overrun, potentially making your character inside more instead of less vulnerable.

Anyway, exalteds or lords are only worth it for specific tasks. Active combat resolution or single handedly killing units doesn't work. The only valuable exalteds IMO are the hunter on disc or the BSB on jugger. Lords are secondary to sorcerer lords and are really only worth it on a dragon (or manticore) so that they can single handedly take down most things on the battle field.

_Kalas_
02-04-2009, 14:57
The dogs are great for shielding mounted characters. The "Waroof Sir!" rule can protect them from artillery, as warhounds have the canine characteristic of jumping to grab fast moving flying objects ;)

This will keep the points cost of your individual units down – a character in a knight unit will easily provide a 500 point target, and 6 pt. dog is a lot better cannon fodder than a 40 pt. knight. WoC characters are also hitty enough to pack quite a punch by themselves, and they can easily charge out of the unit and leave the dogs behind – lates FAQ even forces people to S&S at the dogs :evilgrin:

I've done this quite a lot and with great success. Its coined the Doggy Delivery Service, but you have to take care of those flanks :)

That's grand!
I'm so happy to hear that it works for You my friend.
You've encouraged me to use this tactic.
I'll try to minimize flank charge threat by keeping the unit in the middle of my line, flanked by warriors and chariot.
I've tried Slaaneshi exalted on SoS with horseman, and he proved himself worthy, he's like high caliber sniper rifle :D, able to charge EVERYTHING You want him to charge [well,surviving the fight with some nastyness is a whole different story], save from shooting due to horseman [they are beeing shot at first place anyway] and cheap[exalted,steed,flail,shield->149 pts.]

cheers

Urgat
02-04-2009, 15:10
Also, Trolls have a M4, they would be easy to avoid.

No, trolls don't have M4?

SiNNiX
02-04-2009, 15:48
Crap, you're right. I thought fear transferred in full, but it is only the immunity vs other fear checks. That kills the tactic.

End of thread. :D