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LKHERO
01-04-2009, 18:43
So my friend plays Elder and his precious Skimmer vehicles fly 12" and 24" all over the place, all the time.

Even after they EXPLODE, his dudes only take S4 hits? How does that make any sense.. when a Skimmer traveling at hypersonic speeds explodes in mid air and his units survive.

This is one of things I absolutely HATE about 5th edition. Completely and utterly unrealistic. At least in 4th edition you had to think carefully about where you jumped your Skimmer in fear that your opponent will roll lucky and destroy your expensive units, nope, not any more.

Ugh :wtf:

Bellygrub
01-04-2009, 18:47
Didn't you watch Jedi? When one of the speeders explodes the others just keep going...like right through the explosion and all.

Totally real.

incarna
01-04-2009, 18:58
I would imagine a super advanced race of psychic being might have, millennia upon millennia ago, observed a 20th century mon’keh invention worthy of adaptation to their own ends;

ejection

and I believe it's strength 3 hits, not strength 4 if I remember right.

Dach
01-04-2009, 19:03
no, it's str 4 as the eldar transport are closed. Open-top transport explosion for passenger is str 3.

Asi the Red
01-04-2009, 19:19
On the other hand if they move their fast vehicles Flat Out and get Immobilized, don't all the passengers die straight out?

Edit: I have no fast vehicles, so I'll admit in advance I haven't read through that section of the rulebook as much. So the above may be incorrect...

MadJackMcJack
01-04-2009, 19:35
You say it's unrealistic, but have you ever seen psychic space elves bail out of an exploding hovertank while travelling at high speeds?

lantzkev
01-04-2009, 19:38
yes yes, clearly all models are moving at 1/4 of a hypersonic speed...

do you read what you type? Models move 6, to 12 inches if they are running... Tanks moving fast are going 24.... yes it crashes into the ground, at a 30-40mph or so collision...

How many people die in collisions at that speed? Not too many. Seriously injured sure, but it's a collision...

Now add in the fantasy element of physics in 40k, and poof! you have your explanations!

Sttucker13
01-04-2009, 19:46
You say it's unrealistic, but have you ever seen psychic space elves bail out of an exploding hovertank while travelling at high speeds?

You, my straight-edged friend, have clearly never dropped acid.

incarna
01-04-2009, 19:50
On the other hand if they move their fast vehicles Flat Out and get Immobilized, don't all the passengers die straight out?

Edit: I have no fast vehicles, so I'll admit in advance I haven't read through that section of the rulebook as much. So the above may be incorrect...

Not exactly. Models may not disembark if the transport moves >12”. Only if the transport is destroyed in the same phase in which it moved >12” do all the passengers die.

As far as I know, the only way for this to happen is through tank-shock, ramming, or failed difficult terrain tests.

dal9ll
01-04-2009, 19:51
Skimmers are so powerful in 5th edition its ridiculous. Removing the rule where Immobilized Skimmers get destroyed was completely stupid. They should have at least made it so that if a Skimmer that had moved more than X" and gets Immobilized, it takes a S10 hit on the front armour or something. Plus, dont even get me started on the Cover save that ONLY SKIMMERS GET for moving at high speeds. Why the hell dont non-skimmers get the same bonus for moving at the same speeds.

I hate Games Workshop's fetish for Eldar...

lantzkev
01-04-2009, 19:53
fetish for Eldar? you're joking right, I don't even play eldar, and I know they aren't GWs pet...

Vaktathi
01-04-2009, 19:55
So my friend plays Elder and his precious Skimmer vehicles fly 12" and 24" all over the place, all the time.

Even after they EXPLODE, his dudes only take S4 hits? How does that make any sense.. when a Skimmer traveling at hypersonic speeds explodes in mid air and his units survive.

This is one of things I absolutely HATE about 5th edition. Completely and utterly unrealistic. At least in 4th edition you had to think carefully about where you jumped your Skimmer in fear that your opponent will roll lucky and destroy your expensive units, nope, not any more.

Ugh :wtf:

In all reality, everyone inside would likely be killed or at the very least nobody would be getting out and participating in the battle and would effectively be destroyed for the purposes of that engagement.

However in an effort not to make transports giant deathtraps, GW has greatly toned down the effects of crashes and vehicle explosions.

A Leman Russ with a full ammo store blowing up would likely kill everything anywhere near it. instead it's an S3 hit to everything within d6"

There's also a bunch of weird stuff related to skimmers. In any realistic sense, a skimmer hit by a battlecannon shell would be trashed even if it didn't breach the armor. The shock to the crew and equipment would be fatal in many respects, and the impact would likely either cause an extreme deceleration (not good for equipment and people) or would simply smash it right into the ground from the raw kinetic energy.



The skimmer rules as they stand work for what they are, they are much better than 4thed with the *********** invincible skimmers that laughed at CC attacks and mitigated most shooting and only needed to move 6" for the full benefit.

Bellygrub
01-04-2009, 20:00
Plus, dont even get me started on the Cover save that ONLY SKIMMERS GET for moving at high speeds. Why the hell dont non-skimmers get the same bonus for moving at the same speeds.


Turbo Boosting Bikes?

Maxtermynd
01-04-2009, 20:06
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page here:

-skimmers ARE wrecked if they are immobilized if they went flat out unless they have one of the various point sink upgrades (hello gravitic thrusters!). Otherwise they just settle softly to the ground and are immobilized.
-passengers in ANY vehicle that is not open topped all take str 4 hits if the vehicle exploded, not if it was simply wrecked. Troops from wrecked transports test to see if they were pinned.

As for the cover save I'll give you two options:
1) Skimmers can bob and weave in three dimensions and combined with breakneck speeds allows them to dodge very effectively (like with them being rammed)
2) Wez Eldarz is very, very cheaty, and will do anything to protect the paper thin armor of our magical flying tank-planes

darker4308
01-04-2009, 20:12
I run mech-eldar. I also agree a crashing skimmer would likely kill everyone on board.

Also some of you really have your rules ass backward.

You can disembark troops using an E-disembark out of skimmers that have gone over 12". Read the rules. Also .... it shouldn't be armor saves getting out of a tank. It should be reverse armor saves. The more protection you have on the more likely you are to be trapped in the wreak.

Also .... I have many significant problems with how weak eldar skimmers actually are. These flying tanks seem to be able to be hit going at a massive velocity in a manner similar a stationary leman russ behind a tree. In reality it wouldn't be easy to bring anything other than a very specialized gun to bear on something going 24" a turn. You would need computerized mounts with uber fast stepper motors, or just a massive amount of flack. I honestly think that a flat out skimmers should get at least a +3 if not +2.

Qualdinesh
01-04-2009, 20:12
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page here:

-skimmers ARE wrecked if they are immobilized if they went flat out unless they have one of the various point sink upgrades (hello gravitic thrusters!). Otherwise they just settle softly to the ground and are immobilized.
-passengers in ANY vehicle that is not open topped all take str 4 hits if the vehicle exploded, not if it was simply wrecked. Troops from wrecked transports test to see if they were pinned.

As for the cover save I'll give you two options:
1) Skimmers can bob and weave in three dimensions and combined with breakneck speeds allows them to dodge very effectively (like with them being rammed)
2) Wez Eldarz is very, very cheaty, and will do anything to protect the paper thin armor of our magical flying tank-planes

great break down!

darker4308
01-04-2009, 20:14
I'd also like to be able to deep strike my falcons like the new damn guard can.

Captain Micha
01-04-2009, 20:17
I'd also like to be able to deep strike my falcons like the new damn guard can.

Why? You have an awesome army. Guard get awesome units. That's how the balance always has worked between the two. Eldar don't -need- this.

Especially with FalcoField.

Vaktathi
01-04-2009, 20:17
Also .... I have many significant problems with how weak eldar skimmers actually are. These flying tanks seem to be able to be hit going at a massive velocity in a manner similar a stationary leman russ behind a tree. In reality it wouldn't be easy to bring anything other than a very specialized gun to bear on something going 24" a turn. You would need computerized mounts with uber fast stepper motors, or just a massive amount of flack. I honestly think that a flat out skimmers should get at least a +3 if not +2.
Probably true, they should be very difficult to hit, but they also should be incredibly easy to destroy once hit. People often compare falcon's to Hind gunships, which makes a sort of sense. Hard to hit with most weapons, armored against small arms, but it's dust if hit by anything bigger than small arms, even heavy machine guns can make a mess of it.

dal9ll
01-04-2009, 20:41
fetish for Eldar? you're joking right, I don't even play eldar, and I know they aren't GWs pet...

Then why have consistently had the best Codex edition after edition after edition? Still not convinced? Look at the GT placings.

Why GW cares so much about pleasuring the multitude of Eldar fanboys who still think Eldar should be more powerful is a mystery to me.

@Maxtermynd:
Eldar skimmers have paper thin armour? Sure they may be 12, 12, 10 but theyve got Holo-fields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, and that thing Wave Serpents have that disallows multiple D6 rolls for armour pen AND reduces S9+ shots to S8. What kind of crap is that? Eldar Skimmers are very powerful, versitile, mobile, and durable. Nuff said.

Radium
01-04-2009, 20:59
Then why have consistently had the best Codex edition after edition after edition? Still not convinced? Look at the GT placings.

Why GW cares so much about pleasuring the multitude of Eldar fanboys who still think Eldar should be more powerful is a mystery to me.

@Maxtermynd:
Eldar skimmers have paper thin armour? Sure they may be 12, 12, 10 but theyve got Holo-fields, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines, and that thing Wave Serpents have that disallows multiple D6 rolls for armour pen AND reduces S9+ shots to S8. What kind of crap is that? Eldar Skimmers are very powerful, versitile, mobile, and durable. Nuff said.

Don't forget hideously expensive. A fully tooled falcon costs as much as a land raider. Now which one is better?

Those GT placings have very little to do with the tanks, and more with fortune and seer councils. Those are just silly powerful.

noobzor
01-04-2009, 21:08
umm, eldar skimmers are good, but not that good. and the codex is definitely not the best out there.

wave serpents can't have holofields.
vectored engines is a waste of points in this edition.

Lets do a comparison:
Rhino: 40ish points
New Chimera: 60ish
Wave serpent: Bare minimum 100 points. Add spirit stones and possibly a better weapon and it rapidly becomes quite a bit.
Falcon: with holofields and spirit stones 165 points. Once it drops off the infantry it has a S8 gun and a S6 gun. If it wants to use both it is extremely vulnerable.

Autocannons eat eldar tanks alive. AV 12 is actually pretty thin when you think about it.

Sure they survive if their transport crashes, but it is so much easier to crash it in the first place. Last edition you would not even be able to pen it!

Eldar is pretty much where it should be. Except that guardians have a POS gun...

Maxtermynd
01-04-2009, 21:17
@ Qualdinesh: Thanks!

@dal9ll: Exactly, more of our cheaty cheaty ways of protecting our magic tank-planes. And wave serpent energy field? Yeah, it's pretty awesome... but that and everything else costs a lot of points. I tend to think that they are worth the points, don't get me wrong, but every so often I wish for a cheaper basic transport rather than my standard 120 pt wave serpent, though they do make great main battle tanks/ str10 ramming weapons in a pinch

dal9ll
01-04-2009, 22:39
@Radium: Youre making a huge assumption by claiming that a Land Raider is better than a tooled-out Falcon. It depends on the Mission, the rest of your army, what army youre playing against, etc. etc. Its very situational and not fair to compare them in this way. Sometimes you need durability and sometimes you need mobility.

@Noobzor:
Saying that autocannons eat all Eldar tanks is also a huge assumption. What upgrades are on them is definitely a factor. And I dont see whats so great about needing 5's and 6's to penetrate.

I play Eldar frequently and in my experience the best way to deal with Wave Serpents and their energy fields is by throwing an MC or Nob with a power klaw or something at them. Shooting at Eldar tanks to neutralize them is not reliable. You gotta rememebr that lame-ass cover save they get from moving over 12", which is more often the case than not.

Overall, Eldar tanks not that expensive if you think about what you actually get out of them. Its players' natural inclination to assume theyre expensive simply because theyre 120 or so points. If youre comparing them to Rhinos or Ork Trukks (which are super cheap), then yes they seem expensive. However, if you look at all the things Eldar skimmers can do it explains their points cost. They keep fragile specialist units, like Banshees or Fire Dragons, protected from shooting and gives them a MASSIVE boost in mobility, which essentially negates their fragility and specialty disadvantages. Super-specialized units become amazing when you supply them with the ability to get where their abilities are at the highest advantage, ie: getting Banshees to heavily armoured troops or getting Fire Dragons near a vehicle.

Poseidal
01-04-2009, 22:55
Actually, Eldar with Rhinos could be even scarier than with Wave Serpents.

Imagine for the price of a Wave Serpent, I have a solid wall of 4 Rhinos (which cost the same) screening my troops across half the map.

Or a squad of 10 Harlequins charging straight from a Land Raider. It's fluffy too, Harlequins used to get Land Raiders!

Anyway, here is a run down:

All skimmer does is allow you to move over terrain without penalty (but not onto it) - NOTHING ELSE
Fast allows you to move over 12", up to 18". The FAST rule has a clause for Skimmers that allows them to go to 24", destroyed on immobile if going over 12" but get the 4+ save on the other side.

EDIT: Seriously, people still complaining about Eldar skimmers in 5th after 4th? it's all about the Bike Council now.

IJW
01-04-2009, 23:17
How does that make any sense.. when a Skimmer traveling at hypersonic speeds explodes in mid air and his units survive.
By definition, a skimmer in 40k isn't travelling at hypersonic speed, it's acting as a battle taxi in an active combat zone - even 24" is travelling at a cautious rate, nap-of-earth. As someone already pointed out, it's only twice the speed of a human with a good Run roll.

If you want hypersonic, look at the rules for Flyers. Which just happen to auto-kill all transported troops when they crash...

dal9ll
01-04-2009, 23:19
"solid wall of Rhinos"??? Rhinos are slower, less maneuverable, have less firepower and are much flimsier than any given Eldar skimmer.

And Im not talking about Skimmers in general. Im speaking specifically about Eldar skimmers and their roles in a given Eldar army.

Whether or not Eldar skimmers are better or worse than the last edition is irrelevant to this discussion.

The_Outsider
01-04-2009, 23:41
Probably true, they should be very difficult to hit, but they also should be incredibly easy to destroy once hit. People often compare falcon's to Hind gunships, which makes a sort of sense. Hard to hit with most weapons, armored against small arms, but it's dust if hit by anything bigger than small arms, even heavy machine guns can make a mess of it.

You're thinking of dark eldar, not eldar.

Eldar tanks are stupidly tough when you think about it (even like what, 95 points base after weapons for a serpent?).

Vaktathi
01-04-2009, 23:47
You're thinking of dark eldar, not eldar. No, I'm not talking about a plate of metal for people to stand on attached to an engine :p




Eldar tanks are stupidly tough when you think about it (even like what, 95 points base after weapons for a serpent?). They used to be absolutely ridiculous. the changes to the skimmer rules bring them much more in line with their cost.

all this talk reminds me that I've got 11 skimmer tanks sitting there in need of painting :(