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Aladin_sane
01-04-2009, 22:36
Reading over the new army book I came across the snippet on page 16 referring to these guardians of sacred places. To me, it would have been a lovely new addition to the army, and has some nice potential modelling and gaming wise. Do you agree or disagree?

Master Stark
01-04-2009, 22:56
A snake with wings simply doesn't look that cool.

Ultimate Life Form
01-04-2009, 23:08
A snake with wings simply doesn't look that cool.

Nonsense. Basically, all dragons are snakes with wings. Itīs just this one has no legs. Okay, a little background:

The Coatl isnīt new, but it has been lingering around in the background for quite some while. There was even a building instruction and rules for it. Iīd loved to see a Coatl Rider Skink, as seen in the Artwork in the new Army book.

Itīs worth noting that, unlike other dragons, the Coatl is a mighty Spellcaster itself (canīt remember if Lv3 or Lv4 and the Lores though), so it would have seriously beefed up the magic phase, especially if ridden by a Skink Priest.

Master Stark
01-04-2009, 23:18
Nonsense. Basically, all dragons are snakes with wings. Itīs just this one has no legs.

A dragon has a much more lizard/dinosaur shaped body. The long tubular body of a snake simply doesn't fit well with wings. Does the coatl have an uber strong spine that doesn't bend, preventing the back two-thirds of the body from hanging limp? Or does it tear around at such speed that the rear part of it's body just trails in the breeze? Or does it's body just hang limp? Or do we just say 'a wizard did it' and not care about how goofy a model that would make?

A snakes body simply doesn't look biologically functional with wings attached. It needs a more solid and defined chest, from which a neck and tail would naturally extend.

And then all you've got is a dragon with feathered wings.

There are plenty of opportunities to expand the LM range without getting into coatl nonsense.

Ultimate Life Form
01-04-2009, 23:24
A dragon has a much more lizard/dinosaur shaped body. The long tubular body of a snake simply doesn't fit well with wings. Does the coatl have an uber strong spine that doesn't bend, preventing the back two-thirds of the body from hanging limp? Or does it tear around at such speed that the rear part of it's body just trails in the breeze? Or does it's body just hang limp? Or do we just say 'a wizard did it' and not care about how goofy a model that would make?


:eyebrows:
...................





:eyebrows:

Okay... Iīm not answering. Just taking a single look at the old High Elf Dragon should convince you what nonsensical gibberish that is.


The Coatl is the South American version of a Dragon, it hasnīt been invented by GW and is known in many other fantasy games as well. Itīs a dragon, period, and dragons defy nature by definition.

Rolo Ramone
01-04-2009, 23:28
Ohhh, come on! What are you talking about? Dragons are not biologically functional, nor dwarfs or stegadons. It does not matter because its a FANTASY game. Oriental Dragons are Snakes also. And How can a Dragon Fly with those little wings? Or that pegasus? Well, the answer: They are not real, so, it does not matter. Enjoy the game.

And The Coatl itīs an extraordinary idea. I imagine you never read anything from Shadowrun. Well, there are some good Coatls to look.

Aladin_sane
01-04-2009, 23:31
Somthing similar to World of Warcrafts troll god Hakkar would be somthing to consider image wise.

Master Stark
01-04-2009, 23:35
:eyebrows:
...................





:eyebrows:

Okay... Iīm not answering. Just taking a single look at the old High Elf Dragon should convince you what nonsensical gibberish that is.

:rolleyes:

You mean the incredibly camp and ridiculous model that they replaced?

Yes, that rather proves my point, doesn't it? Snakes with wings look stupid.



The Coatl is the South American version of a Dragon, it hasnīt been invented by GW and is known in many other fantasy games as well. Itīs a dragon, period, and dragons defy nature by definition.

I know. And in a miniature form, a snake with wings looks stupid.

Ultimate Life Form
01-04-2009, 23:53
This thread made me thinking. Sadly, the rules and instructions are now down thanks to GW leveling their sites. Does anyone know if they can still be found somewhere? To be honest, I liked the Coatl before, but didnīt build one because I thought they might release a mini in the future. But with the new book fresh out and no Coatl in sight, itīs time to give up hope. Can anyone tell me what itīs made from? As far as I remember, it said it was a Chaos Dragonīs head and the wings from Karl Franzī Griffin, but Iīm not sure about the body. I think it had something to do with the Chaos Dragon, too, but can someone please help me identify what it is?

Drayken
02-04-2009, 02:39
I wonder, does the coatl fit more as a mount for a mage to boost magic, or as a combat-mount for your oldblood?

PARTYCHICORITA
02-04-2009, 02:58
The Coatl is the South American version of a Dragon, it hasnīt been invented by GW and is known in many other fantasy games as well. Itīs a dragon, period, and dragons defy nature by definition.

Hello there, South american here :angel:
Actually the Coatl is base on a god from ancient mexico, Quetzalcoatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl) which was in his animal form a feathered flying serpent BUT with no wings.

As for the whole Coatl theme i would have liked it. Maybe as a speacial character in a similar way as Galrauch is in the WoC book. I assume designers at one point wanted to do it but then backoff on the idea for some reason.
It's a shame really.

Ultimate Life Form
02-04-2009, 03:16
Hello there, South american here :angel:
Actually the Coatl is base on a god from ancient mexico, Quetzalcoatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl) which was in his animal form a feathered flying serpent BUT with no wings.

Yeah, I know, Iīm not stupid, that was the simple version for those less gifted with wisdom.

Also, dragons always had aspects of deities/demons or were deities/demons back in the good old days. There are hundreds of tales from all over the world:

-Apophis
-Typhon
-Fafnir
-Yamata no Orochi
-Ouroboros
-Jörmungander
-Manda

And many, many more. I was speaking more inside the fantasy perspective, where dragons are mighty creatures, but not gods and appear in various forms.

jason
02-04-2009, 03:30
Here is a model for a coatl, it is probably about 20 years old, and may have been designed by GW/marauder/etc. I have no idea. Also, please disregard the paintjob, and it has since broken off its base.

It was more of a stand-alone model/magic caster rather than a mount (it is pretty small in size).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3406131980_ca6f6b6876.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3554/3405321149_3ea4a893e2.jpg?v=0

Lord Malorne
02-04-2009, 03:31
I would like to have seen the coatl added to the army, shame they decided not to.

Ultimate Life Form
02-04-2009, 03:35
Here is a model for a coatl, it is probably about 20 years old, and may have been designed by GW/marauder/etc. I have no idea. Also, please disregard the paintjob, and it has since broken off its base.


Iīve seen it on the web, where it was classified as "GW 3rd Edition Coatl model, no longer available". Itīs ugly as hell, but not because of your paintjob, Iīve seen worse. I like the conversion better.

jason
02-04-2009, 03:51
Here is one more photo with a skull pass goblin for size comparison.

I do wish it was included in the new list. Perhaps as a rare with a bound spell, so it could cruise around on its own. And though these old models aren't up to today's standards, I do have a soft spot in my heart for them. :)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3469/3406189630_98306d54ac.jpg?v=0

Necromancy Black
02-04-2009, 04:12
Yeah, had they added one to the army list with the stats of a dragon, a 4+ ward save and a lv 3 or 4 spell caster, that would have been cool (taken as a mount for a skink priest, whole things takes up a single Lord slot).

I don't see them as Saurus mounts, only skink priests, and probably with a restriction of only having one every 2000 points.

That would have been awesome!

snurl
02-04-2009, 07:39
I like the Idea. Especially if they sculpt the mini in keeping with traditional South american renditions of the beast, specifically the squared off head and patterned feathers.

StarFyre
02-04-2009, 12:05
it pisses me off to no end that the coatl is based on the first major art in our new liz armybook with a priest riding it, they have passages of it in the armybook fluff, we lack a good flying mount (like most armies have a dragon or something close), and we have perfect fluff for it, but they don't give it to us.

Especailly since we have fewer mounts than a few other armybooks....making more armybooks 'up to par' in that regard if it makes sense would be ideal IMHO.

Sanjay

The SkaerKrow
02-04-2009, 12:33
It's an interesting concept, but it wouldn't have been a balanced addition to the army (as it would be either a flying monster or a powerful extra caster, two things that Lizardmen don't really need). So while I'm really intrigued by the concept, I understand why it didn't end up in the book.

W0lf
02-04-2009, 14:15
I think flying large terror causing creatures ruin 2K games of fantasy.

Im not upset/bothered there isnt another one to contend with.

N810
02-04-2009, 14:44
they could have at least added it as yet another special character without a model...

dannyfave
02-04-2009, 16:21
Coatl (hopefully this is allowed)
M=2, WS=5, S=3, T=4, W=3, I=5 , A=1, LD=8
The Coatl takes up a lord choice and is a level 4 wizzard that can choose spell from Light, life or heavens lists

special rules,

Cold blooded

large target

Causes terror

Magical storm: basicaly a magical storm is created whenever a Coatl shows up and all missile fire is at -1 to hit the coatl.

Master of the sacred places: Free spell, it basicaly lets you move wooded terrain pieces before the game begins but after deployment. D6 wooded terrain pieces can move D6 inches (I am not exactly sure on how this works as it says it is a spell, but it is done before the game begins)

Shield of the Old ones: 3+ ward save

I am not going to put the points value as I dont know how legal that is, but lets just say that the Coatl was slightly overpriced for what it could do.

All of this info comes from the chronicles 2004 book.

Ultimate Life Form
02-04-2009, 16:25
It's an interesting concept, but it wouldn't have been a balanced addition to the army (as it would be either a flying monster or a powerful extra caster, two things that Lizardmen don't really need).

Better! It would have been both! Well, in the original rules, it wasnīt a mount but a stand alone rare choice. I donīt remember its stats, but while it was a fierce melee fighter, it was nowhere as good as a dragon. So even if a mount, it would have been sorta frail, especially with a T2 Skink Priest on top. It couldnīt be used to break heavy rank and file. The Coatl has no ranged attacks, and it can still miscast, so I donīt think it would have been overpowered. A unique Skill was that, after setup, it could use its magic powers to rearrange a few woods in the enemy deployment zone. This was to reflect the Coatlīs nature as mysterious, reclusive creature that hides away in the jungles.

Ultimate Life Form
02-04-2009, 16:26
Coatl (hopefully this is allowed)
M=2, WS=5, S=3, T=4, W=3, I=5 , A=1, LD=8
The Coatl takes up a lord choice and is a level 4 wizzard that can choose spell from Light, life or heavens lists

special rules,

Cold blooded

large target

Causes terror

Magical storm: basicaly a magical storm is created whenever a Coatl shows up and all missile fire is at -1 to hit the coatl.

Master of the sacred places: Free spell, it basicaly lets you move wooded terrain pieces before the game begins but after deployment. D6 wooded terrain pieces can move D6 inches (I am not exactly sure on how this works as it says it is a spell, but it is done before the game begins)

Shield of the Old ones: 3+ ward save

I am not going to put the points value as I dont know how legal that is, but lets just say that the Coatl was slightly overpriced for what it could do.

All of this info comes from the chronicles 2004 book.

Oh DannyFave, you are my new hero! Iīll award you with a special Old One Honor Medal! Please, PM me the point cost! pleasepleaseplease...

dannyfave
02-04-2009, 16:28
I think I forgot to add flyer in those rules though, although it was right there in front of my face.

As far as an old one honer goes, I play filthy kislevites and evil dark elves so I don't know if that metal could be bestowed upon me;) (well, I play quite a bit more armies than that, but those are my two that I like the most.... I use DOW or empire rules for the Kislevites now, but thatis going way off topic so sorry)

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 16:38
Dragons are not biologically functional, nor dwarfs or stegadons.

Wait what? short stubby small guys dont exist? and if they do they arent biologically functional, that potentialy makes for some sad midgets.
and stegadons arent functional either? makes for some sad paleontologists.

that aside. a Coatl model could be quite cool dependant on how good you are at converting/sculpting. (Quite a few good pictures available on the net, have a look around) (i remember the soulflayer(Hakkar) looking quite good)

Would be unbalanced as a big flying terror causing monster tho. (and not really up to date anymore either, but possible if your mates agree ofc)
but running it as a carnosaur or so with the Counts as Rule w/could make for a cool figure.

Ultimate Life Form
02-04-2009, 16:43
Iīm currently thinking of building one myself (please, I need the point cost, I wonīt tell anyone, itīs okay), but I donīt know what parts to use. I think I will use Lord of Change wings, `cuz they are the most impressive. All I really need is a big, serpent-like body. However, unlike a real snake, I want to have it some kind of "Chest area" where the wings are, with shoulders where the wings are attached. So it would look like a dragon that gave up itīs arms and legs. I think it would be coooool...

Dokushin
02-04-2009, 18:59
I'm with the game not needing another flying quasi-invincible terror-causer, and that's not really how I see this thing anyway.

I'd think of the Coatl as something more like:



Coatl

210 points, Hero choice (may only be taken as a mount for a Skink
Priest or Skink Chief as normal)

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
3 6 3 5 4 3 3 1 8

Special Rules:
Fly, Cold-Blooded, Scaly Skin 5+

Tranquility: Fear-causing units within 6" of the Coatl do not cause fear
as long as they remain within range. Terror-causing units within 6" of
the coatl are counted as Fear-causing as long as they are within range.

Vibrant Spirit: Shooting from over 6" away from the Coatl takes a -1
penalty to hit. Partial hits from templats must re-roll successful hits
against the Coatl or its rider.

Force of Nature: A Coatl is a Level 2 Wizard, choosing spells from one
of Beasts, Life, or Light. A Skink Priest riding a Coatl may instead of
using the Lore of Heavens use one of Beasts, Life, or Light. A Skink
Chief riding a Coatl becomes a Level 1 Wizard who may use one of
Beasts, Life, or Light.

Serene Grace: A Coatl has the "feigned flight" rule associated with fast
cavalry. In addition, if the Coatl moves during your movement phase,
it and its rider gain a 5+ ward save until the beginning of your

Just kind of pulling that out of nowhere. *shrug* I really think they should have put it in the book -- it has the potential to fill a mechanical (non-lord caster support) and fluff (ancient forces of order, instead of just more dinos) hole.

Master Stark
03-04-2009, 01:24
Iīm currently thinking of building one myself (please, I need the point cost, I wonīt tell anyone, itīs okay)

You are already planning on using made-up out-of-date rules. Why not just take a guess at the points value?

StarFyreXXX
03-04-2009, 01:42
that;'s bull....they can change something if they want. they don't ahve to keep it as is.

Lord knows kroak isn't anywhereas good as he was before.

Something like the pt cost of the middle or highest end elf dragon..lvl 2 caster, with that sacred places rule , a ward save, but no armour save, and only like 1 attack in close combat, but flight or something...

of course testing would indicate..but it really wouldn't be a big deal.

Sanjay

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 02:42
that;'s bull....they can change something if they want. they don't ahve to keep it as is.

Lord knows kroak isn't anywhereas good as he was before.

Something like the pt cost of the middle or highest end elf dragon..lvl 2 caster, with that sacred places rule , a ward save, but no armour save, and only like 1 attack in close combat, but flight or something...

of course testing would indicate..but it really wouldn't be a big deal.

Sanjay

I hope that "bull" part wasnīt aimed at me, `cuz Iīd consider it EXTREMELY rude, and I did not offend you in any way. I never ever said thatīs what it would look like if it was in the book, just stating what it used to be, hoping they donīt change it into a S10 T10 A10 melee monster with S10 breath weapon. I am fully aware the Engine of the Gods is completely different from what it was like in the Lustria campaign for no reason. For the last time, Iīm not stupid, retarded, mentally crippeled or insane (well at least not completely), so thereīs no need to insult me. If I wanna play with a Coatl, let me, its none of your business.

Talonz
03-04-2009, 06:36
Love Coatls, even that old fig. Too bad lm didnt get one, although they got enough disgusting engi....er, stuff as it is.

Bob Hunk
03-04-2009, 16:35
Ohhh, come on! What are you talking about? Dragons are not biologically functional, nor dwarfs or stegadons.

:eyebrows: Erm...not biologically functional...what about people with dwarfism and everyone's second favourite dinosaur, the Triceratops...?

EDIT: The Coatl is quite a cool idea. :)

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 16:38
:eyebrows: Erm...not biologically functional...what about people with dwarfism and everyone's second favourite dinosaur, the Triceratops...?



See my post :p

Ps: i hope he makes one, and posts a pic. if it works out well i might ninja the schematics

Rolo Ramone
03-04-2009, 16:53
:eyebrows: Erm...not biologically functional...what about people with dwarfism and everyone's second favourite dinosaur, the Triceratops...?

EDIT: The Coatl is quite a cool idea. :)

We are not talking about people with dwarfism nor triceratops. If you look at the models for dwarf and for the stegadon, they can never exist really. The dwarf model almost have no legs. But thatīs ok, itīs a game and I like the models. We have skeletons and saurus blowing horns and they got no lips, but again, thatīs ok. So, it doesnīt really matters if a Coatl is not biologically functional. This is my point.

Kerill
03-04-2009, 17:24
I considered using a coatl led army for a while, and you can do it legally as is as long as your coatl isn't too big (needs to fit on a 20mm base)

Just use a truthsayer- M4 (the only issue) fairly fighty stats, a 4+ ward save, +1 to dispel and it's own lore which ties in well with lizardmen in general. Ld9 means its competitive too.

Master Stark
03-04-2009, 17:27
So, it doesnīt really matters if a Coatl is not biologically functional. This is my point.

But it does matter if it looks cool. And a snake body hanging limp from a pair of feathered wings does NOT look cool.

N810
03-04-2009, 17:40
What you never head of flying snakes ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysopelea
http://www.physorg.com/news4079.html
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/1024/flying-snake.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/j.socha/aerial_images/aerial_images.html

"Flying snakes are a small group of species of tree snakes that live in South and Southeast Asia. At rest they appear unremarkable, but on the move they're able to take to the air by jumping from the tree, flattening the entire body, and gliding or parachuting to the ground or another tree."

(now just add wings and a few feathers)

Shamfrit
03-04-2009, 17:42
I think people are overpowering it somewhat, we already have a hard as nails mount that improves magic for the Skink Priest, and is a magic/combat boost for the Skink Chief, what we'd need is variety, so making it actually more in line with an Abyssal Horror or perhaps just Great Stag with winds with a spell bonus effect, something like:

Coatl
180 points.

M 6
WS3
BS0
S4
T4
W2
I6
A4
LD6

Special Rules: Graceful Predator, Master of Harmony, Fear, Lvl.2 Wizard.

The Coatl may select spells from the Lore of Beasts or Heavens, if it selects from the Lore of Heavens, the Skink Priest may use spells known by the Coatl as if they were his own. (Effectively giving you two lvl 2's, with shared spell pool.)

Graceful Predator: Although the Coatl has radiant wings in rainbow hues, it is not naturally a creature of the air. At the start of the turn you may declare that the Coatl is going to Fly, and it may move this turn as if it had the Flyer Special rule, but, it's weapon skill drops to 1 and it's attacks to 2 as it focusses all of it's muscles on maintaing a graceful glide across the battlefield.

Master of Harmony: The Coatl and it's rider are Immune To Fear, Terror and Panic, and all units within 12" of the Coatl may re-roll Fear, Terror and Panic checks if you are not within range of the army general.

scarletsquig
03-04-2009, 18:18
GW already has a convincing "snake with wings" type model, in the form of the Fell Beast:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181205_99111499032_EvilWitchKingFellBeastMain_87 3x627.jpg

I could see the model working well even without the legs.

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 19:37
GW already has a convincing "snake with wings" type model, in the form of the Fell Beast:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1181205_99111499032_EvilWitchKingFellBeastMain_87 3x627.jpg

I could see the model working well even without the legs.

Oh, that indeed looks promising. How big is it? Iīve never seen LotR minis. Are they the same scale as Warhammer? So the guy on top is something like a Dark Elf, or what?

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 19:41
they'r more or less the same scale
(i estimate 1/60 vs 1/76 or if you prefer 25 vs 28mm diffrence beeing only a few Milimeters or if you will 10% or so, pick your measurement system of choice. (the lotr one beeing the slightly smaller one),
none the less, that makes that one's quite big, oh and the guy on top is a wraith.

Edit: for more details

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 19:56
they'r more or less the same scale (i estimate 25&28mm diffrence beeing only a few Milimeters (the lotr one beeing the slightly smaller one),
none the less, that makes that one's quite big, oh and the guy on top is a wraith.

Edit: for more details

Yeah, thanks. With the Dark Elf, I was more more talking about model size. So it looks great. Think Iīll give it a shot. Only needs a new head. Not sure about the wings though. Does anyone think Lord of Change wings would be disproportional (maybe too small)? Iīve never seen one in live action, either.

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 00:27
I think people are overpowering it somewhat, we already have a hard as nails mount that improves magic for the Skink Priest, and is a magic/combat boost for the Skink Chief, what we'd need is variety, so making it actually more in line with an Abyssal Horror or perhaps just Great Stag with winds with a spell bonus effect, something like:



Fully disagree. It should be powerful. Infact, it should count as a SC, something that's more fluffy then army balanced. These are supose to be rare, powerful things. Easily more powerful then a dragon (at least the lesser ones).

Next you'll be saying a Thunderlizard should only be slightly better then the existing Stegadons!

The gripe most people have with the Coatl is the great fluff and idea not being used. Why weaken it down from this? You just create the same problem again.

WarlockOMork
04-04-2009, 00:30
hm.. make it an immensly powerfull special Char requiring you to sacrifice all your Char slots or such.
makes it fit the fluff, still balanced. (i hope)

Shamfrit
05-04-2009, 00:05
It's a question of wherever or not we need another X cost Flying Terror Creature, we have to remember that it's a mount for a Skink Priest... (Sorry, italics are in this week.) With the Engine of the Gods and Terradons we've already got multiple mount options. If we made it a Lvl.4 Caster, Stubborn, Flying, Terror Causing and Godly (despite the Fluff) then A) Slanns would need to be re-written and B) nobody would take anything else.

It's great and fun making your own rules but they have to fit into the current book (or not, as the case may be.) Having a mid range mount for characters is something more books need, this all or nothing approach is seeping into other areas of the game and it's a little tiresome sometimes. Making it a special character is certainly not what a book with nine special characters already would need. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the book doesn't need Coatl's at all - let them remain mythical creatures of legend, one or two here and there, we've enough trinkets as is.

WarlockOMork
05-04-2009, 00:17
didnt mean they should add it to the "official" rule book. it was just a random rules suggestion for fielding a home made char in friendly games.

(but no inmo the lizards "need" nothing, they are good enough as is.
as for why i came with that suggestion, sacreficing the slann+all other heroes would probaly remove most of their quite powerfull magic, (1 lvl4 skink with lore of heavens or such isnt that much left)
thefore possibly making it more balanced, as well as more of a choice, Dangerous melee dragon type creature, vs dangerous magic phase. so said owner/player would need to choose between the two, so both would be fielded on occasion)

Ultimate Life Form
05-04-2009, 00:19
It's a question of wherever or not we need another X cost Flying Terror Creature, we have to remember that it's a mount for a Skink Priest... (Sorry, italics are in this week.) With the Engine of the Gods and Terradons we've already got multiple mount options. If we made it a Lvl.4 Caster, Stubborn, Flying, Terror Causing and Godly (despite the Fluff) then A) Slanns would need to be re-written and B) nobody would take anything else.

It's great and fun making your own rules but they have to fit into the current book (or not, as the case may be.) Having a mid range mount for characters is something more books need, this all or nothing approach is seeping into other areas of the game and it's a little tiresome sometimes. Making it a special character is certainly not what a book with nine special characters already would need. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the book doesn't need Coatl's at all - let them remain mythical creatures of legend, one or two here and there, we've enough trinkets as is.


Well, everyone has their own views on it. Just let me say the following:

-A Skink Priest on a Coatl means one Engine of the Gods less. They serve completely different roles. While the Steg is a tank with a powerful alien artifact on top that is quite something to be reckoned with (super defensive AND super offensive AND magic boosting). So itīs basically a combat monster that does all sorts of crazy things. The Coatl on the other Hand is a mediocre flyer that has to avoid close combat at all cost, or it will die instantaneously. So really, I think the Engine is more threatening.

-I donīt think a Lv4 caster with access to 3 Lores would make a Lv4 spellcaster BSB general with access to all Lores, knowing all Spells, rerolling miscasts, getting extra dice and all sorts of magic items useless. The Coatl serves a support role, nothing else. Itīs true it would be powerful with Skink priest on top, but itīs frail, a single miscast could roast both, and for the points youīd have to dump into it, youīll almost get 2 Slann.

(All this under the premise it stays as it is.)