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Sasori_jap
02-04-2009, 09:53
I think Games Workshop should look at Warhammer Skirmish more seriously. Since you can use the same models and almost the same rules it would be easy for them to support it. Plus alot of new players to the Warhammer world give up playing the game cause its too hard to paint so many miniatures and they end up playing with unpainted ones or not playing at all.

If there is a smaller well supported version of Warhammer then they can start little by little enjoing both the small fun battles and the big ones later on when they have learned how to paint and play.

The format should be more like this: One hero choice, 4-5 core unit models and 1-2 special unit models. How they balance it its up to them. Maybe they can use White Dwarf for supplements, battle reports etc. thus increasing its sales too. What do you think?

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 10:11
I suggest you take a look at Mordheim, wich essentialy is what your talking about. (a (well at the time at least) supported (slightly edited) warhammer skirmish)

W0lf
02-04-2009, 10:28
Yes mordheim is a small skirmished game for warhammer.

However i wudnt say its the same as warhamemr skimirsh.

Why not create your own skirmish rules? My group did for a while after playing mordheim, was fun. If you CBA though then try mordheim... its a great game.

mweaver
02-04-2009, 12:43
Mordheim is a great game, and you can download the rules for free from the GW sites - together with the "Empire in Flames" overland supplement. Warhammer skirmish was based on Mordheim, but a bit less detailed. Mordheim has an excellent set of rules for an ongoing campaign.

IcedCrow
02-04-2009, 13:13
I will also post my support for Mordheim.

Mercules
02-04-2009, 13:59
I for one will post my vote against Mordheim.

While it is fun it is not the way to start into Warhammer. The rules are too different and will confuse people as they migrate into full fledged Warhammer. Also many of the races are not represented in Mordeim which is very limiting.

Warbands really helped me get a club going at a store that had never previously had Warhammer. People were hesitating, there were a lot who wanted to try it, but were looking at about 1000 points worth of troops to get a really game going for most people. The amount of models and painting was daunting.

A couple brave souls dove in at least buying models. We supplemented what we didn't have with cut outs and empty bases labeled correctly, even movement trays with markers for the Vampire player who only had 10 zombies and 10 skeletons. It didn't work very well. Now we had about 5 players that had a hard time getting together, none with a very complete army and about 15 people with books who "wanted to play" but didn't have the money, or time, or whatever.

I recommended Warbands and printed out a couple copies for the store as well as downloading the PDF and loading it on several store computers. Next thing you know we have 10-12 people trying to play, many buying a box or two of models and at least putting them together if not painting them.

Games start becoming easier for everyone to find encouraging more people to build up their armies and now several of us can field at least one 2k army even if not fully painted(I really need a couple days off, with no kids or fiance either, to just focus on it).

If you look at Warbands and run say, 199, you can often buy 2 core boxes and make your army. Your commander is limited at 75 points with no magic items meaning fairly straightforward battles, usually between a couple small units of foot sloggers.

Lets look at Skaven. Normally a Horde army, right?
Chieftain - HvA, GW, Shld, (Commander)
15 Clanrats - Full Com
10 Clanrat Slaves
2 Poison Wind Globadiers

You could mod a Clanrat to be the Chieftain or buy one.
$8 - PWG
$35 - Box of Clanrats
$4.50 - Bag of extra 20x20 bases

Now you just hit friends up for extra models for "slaves" and mix them with the 4-5 extra Clanrat slaves. A friend of mine got a couple extra Gnoblars off of me since I had more bodies than bases.

So they have an army in $50, can put it together fairly quick, and then start buying paint. Next they can expand by buying another box of Clanrats, a Ratling Gun pack, an Engineer, a couple Jezzails, adding them in gradually as everyone slowly builds points up to 500. Once everyone has a fairly comfortable 500 point Warband you try to get them all to expand to 750, then 1k, then 1.5k.

It seems to work.

IcedCrow
02-04-2009, 14:46
Been a while, do we have warband rules anywhere?

Sasori_jap
02-04-2009, 14:49
I for one will post my vote against Mordheim.

While it is fun it is not the way to start into Warhammer. The rules are too different and will confuse people as they migrate into full fledged Warhammer. Also many of the races are not represented in Mordeim which is very limiting.

Warbands really helped me get a club going at a store that had never previously had Warhammer. People were hesitating, there were a lot who wanted to try it, but were looking at about 1000 points worth of troops to get a really game going for most people. The amount of models and painting was daunting.

A couple brave souls dove in at least buying models. We supplemented what we didn't have with cut outs and empty bases labeled correctly, even movement trays with markers for the Vampire player who only had 10 zombies and 10 skeletons. It didn't work very well. Now we had about 5 players that had a hard time getting together, none with a very complete army and about 15 people with books who "wanted to play" but didn't have the money, or time, or whatever.

I recommended Warbands and printed out a couple copies for the store as well as downloading the PDF and loading it on several store computers. Next thing you know we have 10-12 people trying to play, many buying a box or two of models and at least putting them together if not painting them.

Games start becoming easier for everyone to find encouraging more people to build up their armies and now several of us can field at least one 2k army even if not fully painted(I really need a couple days off, with no kids or fiance either, to just focus on it).

If you look at Warbands and run say, 199, you can often buy 2 core boxes and make your army. Your commander is limited at 75 points with no magic items meaning fairly straightforward battles, usually between a couple small units of foot sloggers.

Lets look at Skaven. Normally a Horde army, right?
Chieftain - HvA, GW, Shld, (Commander)
15 Clanrats - Full Com
10 Clanrat Slaves
2 Poison Wind Globadiers

You could mod a Clanrat to be the Chieftain or buy one.
$8 - PWG
$35 - Box of Clanrats
$4.50 - Bag of extra 20x20 bases

Now you just hit friends up for extra models for "slaves" and mix them with the 4-5 extra Clanrat slaves. A friend of mine got a couple extra Gnoblars off of me since I had more bodies than bases.

So they have an army in $50, can put it together fairly quick, and then start buying paint. Next they can expand by buying another box of Clanrats, a Ratling Gun pack, an Engineer, a couple Jezzails, adding them in gradually as everyone slowly builds points up to 500. Once everyone has a fairly comfortable 500 point Warband you try to get them all to expand to 750, then 1k, then 1.5k.

It seems to work.


Thats what iam talking about. This is what Warhammer Fantasy needs. A more supported version of Warbands. Every time i get a friend of mine in a hobbie shop he realy loves the miniatures and starts asking me about the game. How much it costs? How many models you need to play? 99% of them get discouraged when they hear the numbers.

Warhammer needs (especialy at the times we are living with the economic crisis and all) a skirmish version using almost the same rules and the same models. A good entry for the new players till they learn to play, paint and have the models to start 1.5k point battles.

Mordheim is good but 1) Its a specialist game and specialists games are poorly supported from my point of view and 2) It doesnt have the same rules and models.

Thanks for the support Mercules

Mercules
02-04-2009, 14:52
Maybe?

I have copies saved all over the place because GW took them down. Horrible move if you ask me. They are fairly large so I'd have to figure out some way to place them somewhere online. I miss working for an ISP where I had free space on a webserver. :D

IcedCrow
02-04-2009, 14:57
Email me at icedcrow(at)yahoo(d0t)com and I can put them on my website and link them. Zip file preferable.

Mercules
02-04-2009, 15:06
Thats what iam talking about. This is what Warhammer Fantasy needs. A more supported version of Warbands. Every time i get a friend of mine in a hobbie shop he realy loves the miniatures and starts asking me about the game. How much it costs? How many models you need to play? 99% of them get discouraged when they hear the numbers.

Warhammer needs (especialy at the times we are living with the economic crisis and all) a skirmish version using almost the same rules and the same models. A good entry for the new players till they learn to play, paint and have the models to start 1.5k point battles.

Mordheim is good but 1) Its a specialist game and specialists games are poorly supported from my point of view and 2) It doesnt have the same rules and models.

Thanks for the support Mercules

Well, this is one of the reasons when Wizkids came out with Mageknight years ago it hit big in that store.
1. For about $50 you could build an "army" and then just keep expanding
2. Simple rules and stats on the base
3. Came painted but could be stripped and repainted for the ambitious

There were people interested in Warhammer but the store couldn't spare shelf space for models that wouldn't sell and people were not willing to invest hundreds of dollars in one chunk just to play, not to mention months putting everything together and painting.

Having a gentle introduction into the game with less than $75 in a chunk allows a greater audience to get into the game. GW could do itself a favor and come up with some rules to support that. Updating the Warband rules would go a LONG way towards that.

First Purchase - BRB, Army book $75
Second Purchase - Box of Ogres, Box of Gnoblars OR Box of Glade Guard, Box of Dryads <$75
Third Purchase - Tryant model, couple metal blisters <$50
Four Purchase - Another Core box and/or a Special Box and/or a Chariot/Monster/Warmachine <$80

You can do this now, but you can't really play until about the fourth purchase. With Warbands you can be playing by the second and really... if you proxied/borrowed models, after the first with the idea of figuring out what the second should be. :)

Mercules
02-04-2009, 15:07
Email me at icedcrow(at)yahoo(d0t)com and I can put them on my website and link them. Zip file preferable.

I am part of that Campaign group you set up... I think I can upload them there, yes?

Mercules
02-04-2009, 15:09
What do you know... I can.. and did.

Whoops... meant to edit that last message. Sorry.

IcedCrow
02-04-2009, 15:25
Cool. I am using skirmish rules in the campaign so warband info will be nice to have. When I get home I'll put up a section on the website for warbands and link it here for everyone.

Keller
02-04-2009, 16:09
I think Mercules did a fantastic job explaining the importance of skirmish/warbands.

Personally, I find Warbands to be more helpful for those starting out Warhammer than Skirmish, since it keeps to the basic rules, just with smaller armies. I've played skirmish many times, but apart from special scenarios, I was never very impressed by it.

I do have great memories of the "Night of the Living Dead" scenario for Skirmish, in which you had something like 7 Empire soldiers to hold out in a farm house against an endless wave of 20+ zombies which just respawned, having to survive for X number of turns. It was probably one of the best scenarios I have played for small-scale games.

Skirmish though, is much like a watered-down version of Mordhiem. I am a big supporter of Mordhiem, but its not the same as Warhammer by any means. People looking to get into WHFB need more than basic infantry with weapon options, they need the cavalry, monsters, and other units of their armies; they need to learn movement and LoS restrictions, some things not covered in skirmish style games.

I'm glad you found a copy of the Warbands. I beleive I still have all of the PDFs on my home pc, so I will look when I get there to see if anything is missing. They are a great way to introduce new players into the game, or even vetern players to a new army. Its just a shame that GW would not support such endevours which would/should help build a better following for their games.

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 16:09
that would be very nice,
altough i myself am a great fan of mordheim, the only downside i see is that it lacks some of the armies. (the rules are fairly simmilair, just with some twists and a few extra's, ditch the extra's and you know how to play warhammer for 90%)
none the less lack of some armies is a great reason to occasionaly play some warbands :) (and test some new armies)

Yay for Iced&Merc.

Hunter Rose
02-04-2009, 16:28
My group gets together rarely, and when we do we always use the Warbands rules and multiplayer rules for Warhammer. We love it and get a kick out of it.

Any of you every use the random unknown objective based mulitplayer rules? They're a blast.

Erie Ed
02-04-2009, 17:37
My opinion on this is if you like Skirmishers you should be playing 40k and not fantasy

Mercules
02-04-2009, 17:46
My group gets together rarely, and when we do we always use the Warbands rules and multiplayer rules for Warhammer. We love it and get a kick out of it.

Any of you every use the random unknown objective based mulitplayer rules? They're a blast.

Yep, in fact we had a campaign where if you accomplished your objective and your opponent did not then it was an automatic win. Made for very interesting game play.

Mercules
02-04-2009, 17:47
My opinion on this is if you like Skirmishers you should be playing 40k and not fantasy

My opinion on this is if you actually read the thread you would understand what it was about and have an opinion that mattered and fit the thread.:rolleyes:

Erie Ed
02-04-2009, 17:54
My opinion on this is if you actually read the thread you would understand what it was about and have an opinion that mattered and fit the thread.:rolleyes:

heh i suppose :p

Sasori_jap
02-04-2009, 18:23
Thanks all for the comments. On the subject about what is better skirmish or warbands for starters iam not sure.

Skirmish would be better for starters from the point of view that you need even less models but Warbands is a better introduction reguarding the rules, gameplay and generaly the philosophy behind Warhammer.

If GW decides to evolve any one of them i would be happy anyway. Anyone know in what way the developers communicate with the game community? I tried to find an email address to send them this thread but yeah couldnt find one.

N810
02-04-2009, 18:25
Don't forget warbands come in 2 sizes 200 point and 500 point warbands.
(with slightly different rules for each)

Mercules
02-04-2009, 18:28
Yah... you could run a 150 point Warband. Commander would be a model(even Champion) that costs less than 75 points with gear. Watch out though... things like Dryads which rely on wounds and not ranks become nasty against things that need Ranks for CR. :)

Keller
02-04-2009, 18:32
Yah... you could run a 150 point Warband. Commander would be a model(even Champion) that costs less than 75 points with gear. Watch out though... things like Dryads which rely on wounds and not ranks become nasty against things that need Ranks for CR. :)

Very true. I remember playing a Warband game with my Ogre Kingdoms... Take a guess at how that one did. :)

Mercules
02-04-2009, 19:23
That was how I started Ogres. Another Ogre player had:
Bruiser with GW and HvA
3 Bulls with X-HW
4 Ironguts with Banner
4 Gnoblar Trappers

I ran:
Maneater with BoH, Hva
Butcher with Wyrdstone Necklace
2 Bulls
2 Bulls
2 Ironguts
12 Gnoblar Fighters

Butcher ran around with the Maneater. I had 5 units US 5+ for breaking ranks. He had 2. Guess who got flank attacks and beat up things like O&G, VC, HE, and such? :) When those Ironguts of his hit something though *shudder*. The front rank, at least, vanished.

mweaver
02-04-2009, 20:33
If the goal is to ease into full-blown Warhammer, than Warbands is certainly the way to go. But Warbands isn't a skirmish game - it is just Warhammer with fewer units and smaller minimum numbers for unit sizes. I have played a bit with the Warbands rules, and they work pretty well for the intended purpose

However, if the goal is to play skirmish games, then I will stand by the recommendation to use the Mordheim rules. The WH Skirmish rules were just a slightly simplified version of Mordheim, and a version that did not include any campaign rules for character advances. When I recommend Mordheim, I mean the rules, not the setting. I use Mordheim rules for overland skirmishes all the time.

Not all armies are covered? True, but most are:

Beasts of Chaos? Check.
Bretonnia? Check.
Dark Elves? Check.
Dwarves? Check.
Empire? Check. About eight or nine different flavors, in fact.
High Elves? Semi-check (there are rules for a Shadow Elf warband).
Hordes of Chaos? Not-quite check (no official rules, but there are decent fan rules).
Lizardmen? Check.
Ogre Kingdoms? Nope.
Orcs and Goblins? Check. About three different versions.
Skaven? Check.
Tomb Kings? Check (they're horrible).
Vampire Counts? Check
Wood Elves? Not-quite check (no official rules, but there are decent fan rules).

Of course, not every model listed in the WH army list is available in the equivalent Mordheim & Etc.* warband list. But the stat lines are pretty much the same so you can pretty easily use them - you just need to figure out (if using the campaign/advancement rules) which models count as heroes, which count as henchmen, and which cannot earn experience at all. We frequently play games using the Mordheim rules using models ported over from the WH army books. I have also taken WH SKirmish scenarios and adopted them for Mordheim (Etc.) warbands. Again, the two rule sets are almost identical, except the Mordheim rules are a bit more fleshed out and add a campaign system that includes experience and improvement rolls.



*Mordheim, Cities of Gold/Lustria, Khemri, Empire in Flames, Nemesis Crown.

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 20:40
seems im missing some town cryers, tought there where 1 or two less.
anyone got any links or such to pdf's (bretonnians in mordheim btw? doesnt seem to fit fluff wise, on that note i'd like to locate the bretonnian one :p)

Dai-Mongar
02-04-2009, 20:55
Just curious, but what's the difference between playing a small game of Warhammer and a "warbands" game? Special rules of some sort, I assume, but pertaining to what aspect of the game?

N810
02-04-2009, 21:00
Just a few restriictions to keep the armies more ballaces at low levels.
(mostly on troop choices and numbers and a few rules on who could be general)

I think you can still download the PDF from the Aussie GW...

Mercules
02-04-2009, 21:58
Not all armies are covered? True, but most are:

Sadly, I play Wood Elves and Ogres. ;)

mweaver
02-04-2009, 22:25
WarlockOMork, if you email me my username at rgv.rr.com) I can send you the Bretonnian pdf file.

I think I have the warbands rules, if they are no longer on any of the GW sites (I heard around here somewhere that the Aussie site had now been upgraded to be more annoying and less helpful). I don't mind sending them to anyone who needs them (I figure someday my hard drive will die and I won't be able to find my backups, so the more people who have these things, the better!).

Mercules, there is a Woodelf warband - fan created. It is generally considered a bit overpowered for Mordheim (as were the shadow elves), but with larger overland games it would probably be easier to address game-balance issues. I also think someone did an ogre warband - but I have never looked at it. We tend to play the Mordheim rules with a GM, and I have often used ogres as an NPC gang for the warbands to fight.

WarlockOMork
02-04-2009, 23:45
thanks, ill keep those permanently saved in my mailbox so they'll never get lost :) (the box is online, so unless theyr server gets whacked, its there to stay)

(still wish there was an official goblin warband, havent found one of those yet)

Nymie_the_Pooh
03-04-2009, 01:38
The Mordheimer (http://www.mordheimer.com/index.htm) also has a copy of the rules under unofficial warbands. They were printed in a Town Crier and reprinted in the 2002 annual. I'm not sure when it happened exactly, but GW went back and dubbed some of the warbands unofficial after they were printed.

On the subject at hand, for serious skirmish I agree with others on Mordheim if the goal is to play skirmish games. I also agree that Warbands is probably better for breaking someone in if the grand goal is to get that person used to the rules before tackling bigger games. I would like to see GW do updated rules to both of these subsystems, but I can't really see that happening with the way they have been pushing Apocalypse style of play lately. They aren't so much interested in getting new players as they are trying to get as much as they can out of those already hooked. I don't think they realize that they'd still be able to sell me just as much stuff even if they kept the games to a smaller scale. :rolleyes:

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 03:18
thanks, ill keep those permanently saved in my mailbox so they'll never get lost :) (the box is online, so unless theyr server gets whacked, its there to stay)

(still wish there was an official goblin warband, havent found one of those yet)

Forest Goblins.

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 03:19
wait what? is that an official one? and if so got a link/pdf? it would be greatly appreciated.

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 03:36
wait what? is that an official one? and if so got a link/pdf? it would be greatly appreciated.

Itīs not official in the sense that itīs considered an official Warband for tourney purposes, but itīs official in the way that it was created by GW (as many unofficial Warbands as well, so you see my point) and is from the "Nemesis Crown" supplement along with Black Orcs, Hochland Bandits and such. Itīs specifically called "house rules". As the siteīs down, sadly, I donīt know where you can find the rules. Hereīs some search hints for google: Try

"boss pole" (weapon)
"red toof tribal jewellery"
"red toof Goblins"
"Gigantic Spider"
"wind of Gork"
"Idol of Gork"

Those shouldnīt be too common.

(Nice Avatar by the way.)

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 03:44
Thanks a bunch, found it quite fast with those tags.

(and yeah what can i say, you inspired me to remember my fav char from an old tv series. Another thanks for that i suppose :D)

Ultimate Life Form
03-04-2009, 03:46
Thanks a bunch, found it quite fast with those tags.

(and yeah what can i say, you inspired me to remember my fav char from an old tv series. Another thanks for that i suppose :D )

Always glad to help out a fellow fan.

snurl
03-04-2009, 05:12
I think a new version of Warhammer Skirmish would be just great.
Maybe set in Karak Azgal?

mweaver
03-04-2009, 06:05
When the WH Skirmish book first came out, GW posted a fair number of additional scenarios on their website. I too would love to see another collection of scenarios. I would particularly enjoy seeing a collection of connected scenarios.

Sasori_jap
03-04-2009, 16:37
Did they remove the rules from the official GW website?

IcedCrow
03-04-2009, 16:48
See my post on this forum I have gathered everything up and linked to a version of skirmish, warbands, etc...

N810
03-04-2009, 17:33
Ok I looked a couple of times and I still can't find a link to this post Icedcrow..?

Keller
03-04-2009, 17:58
Ok I looked a couple of times and I still can't find a link to this post Icedcrow..?


Warhammer Skirmish Scenarios, Scenario Generator, Warband Rules (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191411) is the thread. Or just go here. (http://warhammer.chrisnye.net/Rules.htm)

N810
03-04-2009, 18:30
ahhh...
Thanks :)

Sasori_jap
03-04-2009, 20:28
See my post on this forum I have gathered everything up and linked to a version of skirmish, warbands, etc...

Yup i have those thx anyway. Iam just wondering why they removed them from the site.

IcedCrow
03-04-2009, 20:31
Only GW would be able to ask that question.

WarlockOMork
04-04-2009, 17:49
Sadly, I play Wood Elves and Ogres. ;)

there are Ogre's are in the Border town Burning supplement, (just discovered them).

Edit: It also includes chaos dwarfs. wich wherent mentioned in above post yet.

mweaver
04-04-2009, 17:55
I haven't played around any at all with the BTB supplement (a fan supplement, but one that looks like a lot of attention was lavished on it).