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Malorian
02-04-2009, 17:12
So Shimmergloom just posted a tournament comp system where you run through a list and see how many points you get. From these points you find out if you have a soft (0-6) medium (7-13) or hard (14+ army). Then you get actual tournament points based on your score (soft gets 8, medium gets 4, and hard gets 1).

To make sure that his thread is't full of people scoring their list I thought I would make another one here. So go ahead, run through the list and see what you would get :)

(Note these are for 2250 lists.)


1. More than 7 casting dice. Bound items and
power stones count as 1 die each, as do the
additional dice allowed to 2nd generation
slaan or any other caster which generates
additional dice.
2. +1 point for each power die over 10.
3. More than 2 dispel scrolls, or any item which
functions as a dispel scroll and/or more than
6 dispel dice.
4. More than 2 of the same special unit,
regardless of how many you may purchase
per slot.
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless
of how many you may purchase per slot.
6. More than 3 missile armed core units whose
missile weapon is S3+. If Skaven weapon
teams, or an Empire shooting detachment are
added to a unit then that unit also counts as
being missile armed. Fanatics added to night
goblins also count as a missile weapon.
7. +1 for each special or named character,
including named unit champions.
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate
either dispel or casting dice.
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a
50mm wide base (includes chariot bases).
11. More than 3 heavy cavalry units. (Heavy
Cav means any cavalry unit with a 2+or
better armor save, and includes flying
cavalry.)
12. Terror causer.
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters.
15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual
salamander counts as a war machine for this
item.
16. More than 2 skirmishing units.
17. More than 2 units with the poison special
rule.
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle
standard. Standards which do not give
victory points do not count as standards for
this item.
20. No standards other than a battle standard.
21. No standards included in the army.
22. More than 2 units/characters with a 1+ or
better armor save.
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.
26. More than 1 regenerating character/unit.
27. More than 1 magical standard.
28. More than 1 large target.
29. No ranked infantry units of at least 15
models and full command. Beast herds
count as ranked infantry for Beasts of Chaos.
Ogre Kingdoms: any ogre unit of at least 3
models counts as ranked infantry.
30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models.

selone
02-04-2009, 17:17
A paltry five.

Bac5665
02-04-2009, 17:23
First, maybe I don't understand how the system works, but I got a 5 for a pretty tough lizardmen list.

Second, where did Shimmergloom post this? I can't find that discussion anywhere.

selone
02-04-2009, 17:25
In his battle report thread. BTW the challenge set by shimmergloom is to make the most competative demon list possible with 7 or less points.

Can a demon player suggest modifications to this list to make it better likely to win without taking its points above 7?

Characters
herald of nurgle, palanquin, slime trail, noxious vapours, banner of unholy victory 255
Herald of khorne, juggernaut, armour of khorne, soulhunger 190
herald of tzeentch, winged horror, spellbreaker 160

Core
20 plaguebearers fc 295
10 pink horrors 120
10 pink horrors 120

Special
6 fleshounds 210
6 fleshounds 210
3 Nuglings 105
5 screamers 150

Rare
3 bloodcrushers, standard 230
6 flamers 210

2255

I reckon its only 4 points which is the minimum you can get, realistically.
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.

Malorian
02-04-2009, 17:25
My armies would rank:

Vampires: 20 Hard (ouch...)
Bretonnian: 6 Soft
Lizardmen: 8 Medium
Dwarf: 5 Soft
Orcs: 8 Medium

Nickskills
02-04-2009, 17:26
My Tomb Kings get a 9. And we all know how hardcore they are.

And my Empire (who do better then my TK) get a 3.

Bies21
02-04-2009, 17:31
If I got this system right.

It's

+3 for over 10PD
+1 more then 6DD via items and DS
+1 3 of the same special
+1 2 of the same rare
+1 4 characters can create PD/DD
+1 4 characters (more then 3)
+1 more then 3 units of Heavy Cav
+1 Terror Causer
+1 5 warmachines
+1 two units with str6
+1 no standards
+1 2 unbreakable units
+1 no infantry of 15US
+1 no infantry of 20US

= 16 points.

And I play Empire!

jimbobodoll
02-04-2009, 17:32
14 for my High Elves and their: Archers/Dragon Princes/Bolt Throwers/Eagles/All Flying Characters... *ouch*

List:
Prince; Griffon, Halberd, Longbow,
Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defence,
Amulet of Light 461

Dragon Mage; Dragon: Sun, Level 2,
Guardian Phoenix, Silver Wand 420

Noble; Great Eagle, Dragon Armour, Shield,
Star Lance, Talisman of Loec 193

10 Archers 110
10 Archers 110

5 Dragon Princes 150
5 Dragon Princes 150
5 Dragon Princes 150
5 Dragon Princes 150

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower 100
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower 100
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower 100

1 Great Eagle 50
[2244]
-----------------------------------------
(4) +1 More than 1 special unit
(5) +1 More than 1 rare unit
(9) +1 More than 3 characters (sundragon=1)
(11) +1 More than 3 heavy cavalry units
(12) +2 2 terror causers
(15) +1 More than 2 war machines
(18) +1 More than 2 units/characters with S6+
(19) +1 Less than 3 standards
(21) +1 No standards included in the army
(24) +1 More than 2 units with a 16 inch charge or better
(28) +1 More than 1 large target
(29) +1 No ranked infantry units of at least 15 models and full command
(30) +1 No ranked infantry units of at least 20 models
[+14]

Somerandomidiot
02-04-2009, 17:34
Mono Khorne Daemons comes in at 10- not too terrible actually.

+1 *9* for 4 characters (3 heralds and a bloodthirster)
+1 *12* for terror
+1 *13* for more than 1 daemonic unit/character, go figure
+1 *14* for more than 3 fear causing units, go figure
+1 *18* for lots of units with S6+
+1 *22* for characters with better than a 2+ armor save
+1 *23* for more than 3 units with a ward save, go figure
+1 *24* for 3+ mounted units
+1 *25* for more than 1 daemonic unit, go figure
+1 *30* for no units of at least 20 models.

My list is: 3x15 Bloodletters, full command. 3 Bloodcrushers, standard and champ. 5 Hounds. 3 Heralds of Khorne, on Juggs with 0+ armor, one BSB with anti-magic standard. Kitted Bloodthirster.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 17:38
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.

Guess the entire Daemon army fails at this one.

Bies21
02-04-2009, 17:39
Guess the entire Daemon army fails at this one.

Yea but it only counts as 1 point.

tomgore
02-04-2009, 17:48
my OK is at an 8(medium) wow

Bac5665
02-04-2009, 17:50
For my Slaan, how do I count the "free" die? Does it count as +1 power die, or what? The wording makes it sound like I have to count each dice he uses, but that will change wildly from turn to turn, particularly now that he knows an entire lore, rather than just a few spells.

Malorian
02-04-2009, 17:52
For my Slaan, how do I count the "free" die? Does it count as +1 power die, or what? The wording makes it sound like I have to count each dice he uses, but that will change wildly from turn to turn, particularly now that he knows an entire lore, rather than just a few spells.

Well he said the spirit totem is assumed to be 3 DD so you would have to add something... not sure how many though... 3 maybe?

Shiodome
02-04-2009, 17:55
i got an urtterly overpowered... 5!!! for my O&G's, most of those were down to having more than 2 spear chukkas :P i felt a bit harshly punished for gaining a point for having wolf riders with an 18" charge range though. seeing as they hardly ever charge when i actually want them to (which is also hardly ever).

Mercules
02-04-2009, 18:02
Ogres = 5
Wood Elves = 10

As you can see... I don't tend to run hard lists. My WE list could be much worse but I had decided on balance in the past.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 18:03
My Teclis list comes in at 7+4 (for a possible 4 power dice over 10). Medium.
My Star Dragon list comes in at 9. Medium.
My all Khorne Daemon list comes in at.. 16... (lol?). Hard.

Looks like if you play Daemons or VC you'll automatically get shafted. Nice composition design :wtf:

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 18:26
Actually Malorian, got a couple of things wrong. The values for the soft, medium, hard were from last year. This year it's 0-7 soft, 8-16 medium, 17+ hard.

0-7 points gets you 7 bonus battle points. 8-11 gets you 4 bonus battle points and 12-16 gets you 2 bonus battle points. 17 and over gets you 0.

Also it is impossible to have less than a 4 for a daemon army of any sort. Because you will automatically score points just in taking your general of any type and 3 core that gets you those 4 points. For #13, 14, 23, 25.

So Selone auto scores on those 4 points. He'd also get points for #4 more than 1 special choice. #8 more 2 characters/units that generate either casting or dispel dice(the horrors would each count as 1, since they both generate a bound spell which each count as 1 casting dice per rule #1). #16 more than 2 skirmishing units, he has the nurglings, flamers and screamers(units of flyers operate as skirmishers). #17 more than 2 units with the poison rule(herald, plaguebearers and nurglings). #24 more than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch or greater charge range. He has a herald who can fly, screamers, flamers who both fly and 2 units of flesh hounds with a 16 inch charge range #26 more than 1 regenerating character or unit(herald makes the plaguebearers regenerate).

So he gets an 10. Not too bad.

Also for people looking at their lists, post them up here so we can look them over and see how they score. It's easy to overlook things at first glance. I had to look mine over several times to get it under 8.

Ethriel
02-04-2009, 18:28
Jeez, based on this my list is really soft....and its a Highelf list.... its only a measly 3 points....

7. +1 for each special or named character,
including named unit champions.

Just Korhil

13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.

Korhil, unit of white Lions.

18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.

Korhil, White Lions, RBT, Lord.

No wonder I dont win many games :rolleyes:



Ethriel

Bodysnatcher
02-04-2009, 18:28
My Tzeentch come in at 18. I think the system is a tad unfair as it penalises horrors four or five times when, on balance, they're the same as any other daemon.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 18:30
Well he said the spirit totem is assumed to be 3 DD so you would have to add something... not sure how many though... 3 maybe?

My understanding is that the extra dice a slann gets per spell if he takes that discipline just counts as 1. So a regular slann with that displine alone counts as generating 5 power dice. A skink priest on an engine of the gods and you add 3 at least. I am unsure how the engine would work as it is an undispellable bound spell. I would just ask ahead of time how it would work. I would assume that adds another dice to make that count as a 4 casting dice generating character/unit.

Mercules
02-04-2009, 18:37
My Tzeentch come in at 18. I think the system is a tad unfair as it penalises horrors four or five times when, on balance, they're the same as any other daemon.

Yes... any other daemon core unit that acts as a spell caster bumping up casting dice and dispel dice. :)

selone
02-04-2009, 18:38
Hmm

4)Isn't for more than 2 of the same special choices?
8#fair point
#16 you got me there
#17 but the heralds a character not a unit and it specifically says units not units and characters :)?
#24 you got me there thought flesh hounds were 7M lol
#26 surely thats not right? its one regnerating character not a regeneratign unit and character, the character just makes them regnerate? By that logic a magic item or character like festsus thta mde a unit regenerate woudl count too, is that right? What if he deployed on hsi own (which admittedly wouldn't happen)

I have myself at 7-8 points, let me change the list :)


So Selone auto scores on those 4 points. He'd also get points for #4 more than 1 special choice. #8 more 2 characters/units that generate either casting or dispel dice(the horrors would each count as 1, since they both generate a bound spell which each count as 1 casting dice per rule #1). #16 more than 2 skirmishing units, he has the nurglings, flamers and screamers(units of flyers operate as skirmishers). #17 more than 2 units with the poison rule(herald, plaguebearers and nurglings). #24 more than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch or greater charge range. He has a herald who can fly, screamers, flamers who both fly and 2 units of flesh hounds with a 16 inch charge range #26 more than 1 regenerating character or unit(herald makes the plaguebearers regenerate).

So he gets an 10. Not too bad.


Characters
herald of nurgle, palanquin, slime trail, noxious vapours, banner of unholy victory 255
Herald of khorne, juggernaut, armour of khorne, soulhunger 190
herald of tzeentch, winged horror, spellbreaker 160

Core
20 plaguebearers fc 295
20 pink horrors 240
12 daemonettes 144

Special
6 fleshounds 210
6 fleshounds 210
3 Nuglings 105

Rare
3 bloodcrushers, standard 230
6 flamers 210

2249

I now have 5 by my reckoning

13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
24. more than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch or greater charge range.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.

I don't think number 4 is +1 as malorian posted it, unelss he's wrong? Flamers dont fly btw :) Is 17 meant to be units AND characters? Are you sure you're right re number 26. Anyways I'm on 5 possibly 8 if 3 of them are written wrong which can be fixed by swopping the nurglings for sceramers and definetly making it 7 and soft :)

MasterSparks
02-04-2009, 18:48
All right, when using my current standard VC list I score a 9. Here's the list itself..

Vampire Lady - Lvl 3 Upgrade, Master of the Black Arts, Flying Horror, Lord of the Dead, The Book of Arkhan, Wristbands of Black Gold, Helm of Commandment - 445
Vampire 1 - Infinite Hatred, Walking Death, The Flayed Hauberk, Sword of Battle, Talisman of the Lycni - 200
Vampire 2 - Dread Knight, Walking Death, Walach's Bloody Hauberk - 195
Wight King - Battle Standard, Barded Skeletal Steed, Sword of Kings, Enchanted Shield - 160

21 Skeleton Warriors - Full Command, Warbanner - 213 * Wight King go here *
21 Skeleton Warriors - Full Command, Banner of Hellfire - 203 * Vampire 2 go here *
21 Zombies - Musician - 88
5 Dire Wolves - 40

5 Black Knights - Musician - 128
5 Black Knights - Musician - 128

5 Cairn Wraiths - Tomb Banshee - 275
Varghulf - 175

Army totals 2250/2250 points.

Looking at the checklist I get docked on,

1) - got 9 PD + 1 bound spell
8) - got 3 characters who generate dice
9) - got 4 characters
12) - got 2 terror causers
13) - more than 1 vampire counts unit/character, heheh
14) - way more than 3 fear causing units/characters
24) - got 4 units + 1 character with a charge range of 16+''
25) - same as 13
27) - got 2 magical standards

I don't think I've missed any points, though you're free to correct me if I have. Looks like I've got a nice and cuddly medium-list here. :)

Desert Rain
02-04-2009, 18:58
My High Elves came in at around 6 as I might have gotten some of them wrong.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 18:59
Selone you are right on #4. You only have 2 of the same special. I keep getting mixed up on this cause last year it was more than 1 of the same special and I had 2 chukkas last year that gave me +1. So you don't get a point for that. I think you are wrong on the rest and since the herald has regen and gives the plaguebearers regen, I am sure that would count as 2 regening characters/units.

I don't think you can say the plaguebearers don't have regen until/unless the character is in the unit anymore than I can say my totem gives me 0 dispel dice unless he's in a unit.

The whole purpose for both of those abilities is to give the unit regen or dispel dice(for the totem).

For #17 you might be right. Cause it doesn't say characters. however, in my battle report thread, I put in that they are allowed to place your army in any category despite how you might score it. So since I really believe not saying characters is a typo, in my opinion they would give you a point for that.

This is why I only took 2 scrolls. Cause I am generating 7 dispel dice so I'm getting a point for that, so I did not want to risk 3 scrolls giving me another point, eventhough it's not worded in a way that makes you think you can get pinged 2 times for that one instance.

For the most part this is a good system. It's only the 2nd year using it and there's already been big improvements over last year.

For instance last year some points included:

1. more than 2 characters(as well as more than 3).
2. more than 1 of any special(now it's more than 2).
3. more than 3 units/characters of S5(as well as the S6+ one).
4. for missle armed core units, for more than 3 fanatics you got a point, instead of just having 3 units of night goblins with each a fanatic), so 4 fanatics got you 1 pt.

And there were no bonus battle points for having softer lists. The only advantage was in getting matched up with someone similar in round 1 and if at all possible in round 2.

So as time goes on, I'm sure more improvements will be made. And while it may seem that daemons are getting pinged unfairly. Selone's list is a 9, that gets him 4 bonus battle points, only 3 less than a soft army. While if you had player scored comps, I'm sure he'd lose alot more than 3 points on comp, just by showing up with a daemon army, eventhough his list is not filled with the cheesy things that make daemons so hated.

selone
02-04-2009, 19:03
Characters
herald of nurgle, palanquin, slime trail, noxious vapours, banner of unholy victory 255
Herald of khorne, juggernaut, armour of khorne, soulhunger 190
herald of tzeentch, winged horror, spellbreaker 160

Core
20 plaguebearers fc 295
20 pink horrors 240
12 daemonettes 144

Special
6 fleshounds 210
6 fleshounds 210
3 Nuglings 105

Rare
3 bloodcrushers, standard 230
6 flamers 210

2249

13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
24. more than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch or greater charge range.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.
26. More than 1 regenerating character/unit.

Which is 6 points and possibly +1 for 17 so 6 or 7 which is soft :D

EDIT
Shimmergloom I don't think it's that bad a system as you say it seems people always mark down DoC lists which thsi list woudl get soft and the full +VP's which it would be unlikely to get in a tourny. Still it does need improvement (the system that is)

W0lf
02-04-2009, 19:04
Lets have a look.

WoC Mono-Tzeentch;

+1 for over 7 power dice
+2 for 12 power dice
+1 for 3 wizards
+1 for units with ward saves (its my mark ffs)
+1 for more then 1 magical standard.

Thats 6. Fair enough i wouldnt argue.

Ghoul heavy Vampire counts (lol);

+1 for over 7 dice
+2 for 12 Power dice
+1 for dual rare (vargulf)
+1 for 3 wizards
+1 for 4 characters
+1 for terror causers
+1 for vampiric units
+1 for multiple fear causing units
+1 for more then 2 units with posion
+1 for less then 3 standard
+1 for no standards other then bsb
+1 for more then 2 units with 16+ charge range (2 Vargulfs, 3x dire wolves, lycini)
+1 for more vampire stuff (again?)
+1 for multiple regenerating stuff
+2 for having units under 20 and not having any full command.

17. Im guessing thats Hard. Damn that was funny lol.

Both my lists are 2K though. Otherwise my 2,250 vamps would lose another pt as id have black knights and thus S6 criteria.

EDIT; Thats a pretty thorough and well composed list. The only other thing id add as a seperate entry as its not covered is; 'ring of hotek +1'. Apart from that nice.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:06
For this next list, I still think it's a 7 selone, not a 5.

I think you'll get pinged for having 3 units(cause I think the herald will count) who have poison. And that herald in the plaguebearers is going to give you more than 1 regenerating character/unit.

So a 7, which is still soft. Which I thought would be impossible for a daemon army to reach.

Keller
02-04-2009, 19:06
Lets see here. Using typical builds for me, I get:

Empire - 4 or 5
Ogre Kingdoms - 6
Vampire Counts - 9+

Yikes! I don't think I could get any less on VC and still make them playable!

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:07
Looks like you beat me to it, while I was typing up my response.

selone
02-04-2009, 19:09
Looks like you beat me to it, while I was typing up my response.

Indeed, I like challenges like this :) What do I win :D?

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:11
Wolf, if you have 12 casting dice, then you will get 1pt for having more than 7 dice, then 2 points for more than 10. And with 3 wizards you have to have at least 8 dispel dice, to give you another point.

So that's a 7 at least.

I would still ask for people to post up their lists, so we can look them over. It is really easy to overlook things at first glance.

I kept thinking mine was a 7 when I had 2 magical banners in it and had to look over it many times before I realized I every chukka was S6 so I was way over on that, so I dropped the banner to get me back down to 7.

MasterSparks
02-04-2009, 19:15
I would still ask for people to post up their lists, so we can look them over. It is really easy to overlook things at first glance.


Well, I did post my list a bit further up this second page. I'd be glad if you could go over it to see if I've missed anything. :)

W0lf
02-04-2009, 19:19
And with 3 wizards you have to have at least 8 dispel dice

No not at all.

My Tzeentch has 6 as do my Vamps. Both contain a lvl 4 + 2 lvl 2's.

However yes they both need +1 for the over 7 dice which ive added.

ZeroTwentythree
02-04-2009, 19:27
My current Empire list, which is pretty soft, scored 5:


5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless
of how many you may purchase per slot.

Two Rocket Batteries.


edit: #6 removed, I can't read. Duh.


8. More than 2 characters/units which generate
either dispel or casting dice.

2 Priests and a Lv 1 mage. Gives me a whopping 5 DD. Not sure how this is considered hardcore in a setting where you regularly see PD in the double digits.


9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).

We're Empire. Our characters are there to keep the droops from disintegrating or running away in the first turn. Can't live without 4.


15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual
salamander counts as a war machine for this
item.

2 Cannons, 2 Rockets.


16. More than 2 skirmishing units.

Three detachments of 5 archers? :rolleyes:



Even though I scored in the squishy range, the above illustrates some of the reasons I have problems with most comp systems. I'd willingly admit that some of the points I would get (like #15) are OK, but then the two hits I would take for my archer detachments seem stupid.

As far as duplicate rares, that also seems silly. What I assume the goal is, is to hit people taking two of the best rares. But this hits the people who take two of the weakest rares as well. Also penalizes armies that have only 2 rare choices in the first place, more than other armies have 4+ choices.

Similarly, not all army's characters are that bad, so the 4 characters point is not applied evenly, either.


((edit: some comments retracted since I didn't read one of the entries correctly...)

ZeroTwentythree
02-04-2009, 19:31
Another thought... I haven't scored one out, but it seems like this system would treat WE players pretty badly. :(

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:35
Wolf, I said dispel, but meant at least 8 power dice. So that was a typo and mistake on my part. I don't know what I was thinking.

For Mastersparks, I can only see that you have missed having more than 2 S6+ characters/units by any means. You have 3(vampire with dread knight and 2 black knight units). Otherwise I don't see anything else to get you points.

Malorian
02-04-2009, 19:37
Now that we found a deamon list that's soft we should see what's the hardest army you can put together :)

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:40
Yes all characters are not created equally and 4 vc characters may be more powerful than 4 empire characters, but look at it the other way.

Vc are getting their characters hit in other multiple categories, whereas empire characters or goblin characters are much less likely to go auto-pinging other categories.

So you may be getting the same 1pt ping for 4 characters that a daemon or vc player may be getting and think that's unfair. But the vc/daemon character are already getting about 3 other pings cause of their characters special abilities, which in my opinion does quite a bit to make up for the fact that not all characters are created equally.

swarmofseals
02-04-2009, 19:42
I'm not a big fan of this system. It really misses a lot of overpowered combos and strategies while dinging people for things that they really can't do anything about.

I think the automatic penalties for VC and Daemons are pretty warranted...

But wood elves? Like ZeroTwentythree suggested, this system really shafts wood elves hard. First of all, there are literally no core units that a WE player can take that won't penalize them. Glade guard are ranged, glade riders are ranged and have a charge > 16", dryads are skirmishers, cause fear, and have a ward save (sortof). We only have one possible choice in the entire list that can fulfill the ranked infantry requirements, but unfortunately that one also dings us for being stubborn... and its a special choice unless you commit to a particular lord choice.

There are basically as many unavoidable points for WE as there are for VC and DoC, which seems very wrong to me.

It also seems like it would be relatively easy to make a REALLY hard DE or HE list that actually gets a good comp score under these rules.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 19:43
My Tzeentch come in at 18. I think the system is a tad unfair as it penalises horrors four or five times when, on balance, they're the same as any other daemon.

Except when you take them as Lv.3 Wizards that has Bolt of Change :P

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 19:43
The hardest list, would be cool to see.

Also if anyone can make a legal 2250 pt list that but also scores a 0 on this scale(or as close as possible), I'd like to see as well! Bonus points if you can use at least 2 special and 1 rare slot, with more than 1 character.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 19:50
The hardest list, would be cool to see.

Also if anyone can make a legal 2250 pt list that but also scores a 0 on this scale(or as close as possible), I'd like to see as well! Bonus points if you can use at least 2 special and 1 rare slot, with more than 1 character.

*list poofed!*

Qualifies for:

4. More than 2 of the same special unit,
regardless of how many you may purchase
per slot.
7. +1 for each special or named character,
including named unit champions.
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a
50mm wide base (includes chariot bases).
12. Terror causer.
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character.
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters.
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle
standard. Standards which do not give
victory points do not count as standards for
this item.
20. No standards other than a battle standard.
22. More than 2 units/characters with a 1+ or
better armor save.
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.
29. No ranked infantry units of at least 15
models and full command. Beast herds
count as ranked infantry for Beasts of Chaos.
Ogre Kingdoms: any ogre unit of at least 3
models counts as ranked infantry.
30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models.

----

Comes in at 16?

Count de Monet
02-04-2009, 19:51
Hmm, 6 pts for my Gobbos, half of which come from having more than 2 spearchukkas.

Terror Causer (Giant)
More than 3 characters (2 shamans, general, bsb)
Multiple missile (could drop bows on my mighty 5-man wolf riders to avoid this point)
Multiple special/S6/warmachines (spearchukkas)

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 19:59
+2 for having units under 20 and not having any full command.

@ W0lf

This isn't cumulative I thought?

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 20:03
Bonus points if you can use at least 2 special and 1 rare slot, with more than 1 character.

This is basically every High Elf list.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 20:03
I'm not a big fan of this system. It really misses a lot of overpowered combos and strategies while dinging people for things that they really can't do anything about.

I think the automatic penalties for VC and Daemons are pretty warranted...

But wood elves? Like ZeroTwentythree suggested, this system really shafts wood elves hard. First of all, there are literally no core units that a WE player can take that won't penalize them. Glade guard are ranged, glade riders are ranged and have a charge > 16", dryads are skirmishers, cause fear, and have a ward save (sortof). We only have one possible choice in the entire list that can fulfill the ranked infantry requirements, but unfortunately that one also dings us for being stubborn... and its a special choice unless you commit to a particular lord choice.

There are basically as many unavoidable points for WE as there are for VC and DoC, which seems very wrong to me.

It also seems like it would be relatively easy to make a REALLY hard DE or HE list that actually gets a good comp score under these rules.

c'mon, how hard is it really pinging wood elves? it's more than 3 shooting core, so you can have 3 units of glade guard core and not get pinged. Dyrads cause fear yes, but you need more than 3 to get pinged. So you can take just 3 units of dryads and not get pinged for that.

Dryads have a 5+ ward save, but again you need more than 3 units/characters with wards to get pinged.

So you can have a core of 3 units of glade guard and 3 units of dryads and only be pinged for having more than 2 skirmishing units.

The only thing they seem to get hurt more on is standards and ranked units.

Which are covered in 19-21 and 29-30. So if you take 0 standards and no ranked units of 15 or more you get 5pts. But you can easily decrease this by just taking a bsb(which tourney WE lists do anyway with the 2 treeman lists) and putting a standard in a unit of wild riders or something. Which leaves you at 3.

Then you could always take a unit of either 15 eternal guard with full command and not get pinged for it.

or you could just take the ping.

If you have 2 standards in your army and more than 3 skirmishing units then that's only 4 points being scored. Which leaves you wiggle room to still be a soft category army. So you can have your 3 dryad units, 3 glade guard units, wardancers, 4 characters and a treeman with wild riders which include a standard(or just stick a standard in a unit of glade guard)and still only score a 7-8.

1. for more than 3 ward save units/chacters.
2. for terror causer.
3. more than 3 skirmishers.
4. no ranked units of 20.
5. no ranked units of 15 with FC.
6. more than 3 fear causers.
7. 4 characters.
8. less than 3 standards(again this can be overcome by taking another cheap standard in a unit like glade guard to go along with the bsb and wild rider stanard).

So unless your characters are loaded with power or dispel dice or S6+ attacks, you should be safely in the soft category or low medium.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 20:06
@ W0lf

This isn't cumulative I thought?

It's not cumulative. You just need to have 1 unit of 20 or more ranked to not get 1 pt for this. It doesn't even need full command. Just 20 or more.

Having just 1 unit of 20 or more ranked infantry(with the exceptions for beasts and ogres which are made) with full command keeps you from getting a point on #29 and #30.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 20:07
It's not cumulative. You just need to have 1 unit of 20 or more ranked to not get 1 pt for this. It doesn't even need full command. Just 20 or more.

Having just 1 unit of 20 or more ranked infantry(with the exceptions for beasts and ogres which are made) with full command keeps you from getting a point on #29 and #30.

Looks like I fail regardless.

Did I do my list correctly Shimmer? We can take this to PM if you'd like. Thanks.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 20:17
From what I can tell your list is correct and only a upper medium. A 16 would get you 2 bonus points.

And let's be honest that army does have alot of the things people hate about daemons. 4 units of flesh hounds, skulltaker, minimum core and a bloodthirster.

Look at it this way, if you showed up with that list in a player scored comp tourney, they would dock you alot more over 5 games then the 5pts you will not get for having a 16 instead of a 7 or less. Even if each player just gave you 1pt less than normal on their comp score vs you, that alone would equal the 5pt difference. And just flat out believe that someone is going to dock you more than 1pt than normal.

So that list is pretty hard, but under this system if anything I think you are penalized less than you normally would be.

I'd love to see a list that can get over 25 or even over 30. lol.

DarkTerror
02-04-2009, 20:23
Wow.

I have a Dark Elf 2250 army which has yet to lose, yet is just a 4. A 4!!!

Either I'm the best general the world has ever seen, without question, or this list has issues.

Please play nice against my Delves, they're only about half as good as an O&G army based on this list.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 20:23
Thanks :)

I'll take down the list now since I read your first post on the first page.

Urgat
02-04-2009, 20:56
I think I get zero...or I didn't get the way it works.

ZeroTwentythree
02-04-2009, 20:58
c'mon, how hard is it really pinging wood elves? it's more than 3 shooting core, so you can have 3 units of glade guard core and not get pinged. Dyrads cause fear yes, but you need more than 3 to get pinged. So you can take just 3 units of dryads and not get pinged for that.

Dryads have a 5+ ward save, but again you need more than 3 units/characters with wards to get pinged.

So you can have a core of 3 units of glade guard and 3 units of dryads and only be pinged for having more than 2 skirmishing units.



Yes and no.

Becuase then you can't have any glade riders, because they are core shooters. You can't have other tree spirits because they cause fear and have a GIMPED "ward" save. No waywatchers, no hawks, no wardancers or wildriders. That leaves, what... the giant eagle? Otherwise yes, you will get hit by several more points. Characters are also T3 with little/no armour, so wards are fairly important on them.




So unless your characters are loaded with power or dispel dice or S6+ attacks, you should be safely in the soft category or low medium.

"Loaded" with DD would include my Empire list getting hit for having 5DD. Seems like being punished for not really doing anything offensive. I think WE, at least, could probably get a better character/DD ratio, though, due to their choices and magic items/spites. Still, considering their vulnerability to magic, I don't see how they could do well in games without decent magic defence. :(

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 21:30
5 dispel dice isn't hitting you at all. Do you have 3 characters taking in dispel dice, cause that's a different story. And if you only have 5dd and 3 character generating dispel dice, then I assume you have 3 warrior priests or 2 wp and a battlemage. I'm getting hit for having 2 lvl 2 orc shamans and the spirit totem in 2 categories. I have 7 dispel dice and 3 characters/units who generate dispel dice and can you really say that 2 orc shamans and a bsb with the totem is harder than 2 warrior priests and a battlemage? I don't think you can.

The main purpose is to keep people from having mass combos of things that are overpowering. You can easily come up with a really good WE list that scores an 11 or less and still nets you 4 battle points.

If you're really taking that many shooters, that many dryads and treemen on top of it, do you really think in a player scored comp system you would only be losing 3 points on comp? I don't think you would. There are still plenty of people who hate to play skirmish-hammer and would dock you for such lists on sight, not taking into account what is actually in the list.

Here's my list for comparison:

So here's my list, it's already been turned in, but I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have:

1. Graulz, Blk. Orc Warlord
heavy armor, shield, boar
Kickin' Boots, Akkrit Axe, Boss 'At.

263pts.

2. Braug, Blk. Orc BSB
heavy armor, Mork's Totem

164pts.

3. Torgo, Orc Shaman, lvl 2
scroll

125pts.

4. Kemp-Fana, Orc Shaman, lvl 2
scroll

125pts.

5. 27 Orcs w/2 choppas.
full command

219pts.

6. 25 Orcs w/shields
full command

180pts.

7. 21 night goblins
musician, 2 fanatics

117pts.

8. 20 night goblins
musician, 2 fanactics

114pts.

9. 2 x 5 spider-riders
65pts each.

10. 8 Savage Boar Boyz
spears, shields, full command

(I wanted to have 7 with nogg's banner, but this would have put me from soft to medium army).

238pts.

11. 10 squig hoppers: 150pts.
12. 4 spear chukkas: 35pts each.
13. Big McLargeHuge the Giant: 205pts.
14. Doom Diver: 80pts.

Total: 2250pts.

I get hit for:

1. more than 3 characters.
2. more than 2 units/characters with S6+.
3. terror causer.
4. more than 6 dispel dice.
5. more than 2 characters/units who generate dispel dice.
6. more than 2 of any special choice.
7. more than 3 war machines.

Malorian
02-04-2009, 21:33
All this talk about WE I thought I'd see how my list does:

Lord on dragon w/ spear, light armor, enchanted shield, bow of loren, arcane bodkins
Noble on horse w/ spear, light armor, shield, hail of doom, bane bow

10 gladeguard
10 gladeguard
10 gladeguard
10 gladeguard
5 glade riders w/ musician
5 glade riders w/ musician
5 glade riders w/ musician
8 dryads

3 war hawks

5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers


Now keep in mind this is only my 2000 list, but this point it has 10 points already!!!

Then again it did win a tournament ;)

IcedCrow
02-04-2009, 21:35
Which is why there will never be a good comp system. I'ts all very highly subjective to what the author likes and does not like to see in an army.

theunwantedbeing
02-04-2009, 21:35
Wow.

I have a Dark Elf 2250 army which has yet to lose, yet is just a 4. A 4!!!

Either I'm the best general the world has ever seen, without question, or this list has issues.

Please play nice against my Delves, they're only about half as good as an O&G army based on this list.

My 2k DE list scores a paltry 5.
Although the dark riders contribute to 2 points of that 5 simply down to thir charge range and having missle weapons.

My list is also unbeaten.

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 21:38
You basically have a WE gunline though. I think that would be pretty annoying to face. A 10 is still a lower medium though.

I'm trying to think how that's a 10 though.

You have:

1. terror causer.
2. more then 3 units with 16" charge range.
3. more than 3 core shooters.
4. do waywatchers have a ward save?
5. more than 2 skirmishers.

What's the rest?

Malorian
02-04-2009, 21:39
no banners and no ranked infantry for the X5 ding :(

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 21:42
oh yeah forgot about that.

Well with 2250, you could take a bsb and put a banner in a unit of glade guard and reduce that by 2 easily. And still maybe fit in a scroll caddy and wild rider unit with banner(which would even take it down to 7.

So actually you could go from medium to soft by having 250pts to play with and really not lose anything in the power of your army.

Malorian
02-04-2009, 21:46
Ya but that's not what would happen :)

I would most likely add a scroll caddie and another unit of glade riders ;)

Avian
02-04-2009, 21:55
Let's see, my WoC get:

1. More than 7 casting dice. Bound items and
power stones count as 1 die each, as do the
additional dice allowed to 2nd generation
slaan or any other caster which generates
additional dice.
2. +1 point for each power die over 10.
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless
of how many you may purchase per slot.
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate
either dispel or casting dice.
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a
50mm wide base (includes chariot bases).
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters.
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle
standard. Standards which do not give
victory points do not count as standards for
this item.
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better.
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit.
27. More than 1 magical standard.
29. No ranked infantry units of at least 15
models and full command. Beast herds
count as ranked infantry for Beasts of Chaos.
Ogre Kingdoms: any ogre unit of at least 3
models counts as ranked infantry.
30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models.

That would be a 13, then, which I think is a bit excessive considering that my three flying Sorcerers get dinged seven times in total (*ding* long charge range, *ding* ward save, *ding* wide base, *ding* generate power dice, *ding* fear causer, *ding* more than 7 casting dice, *ding* more than 10 power dice)

EviIPaladin
02-04-2009, 22:01
Let's see how my Skaven list does...

Ska’They, Chosen of Change (Warlord)
Heavy Armour, Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield, Bands of Power, Warpstone Amulet
186pts

Warlock Engineer
Full kit minus pistol, Storm Daemon, Warpstone Charm
135pts

Warlock Engineer
Full kit minus pistol, Eye of the Horned Rat, Dispel Scroll
135pts

Warlock Engineer
Full kit minus pistol, Death Globes, Dispel Scroll
130pts

25 Clanrats
Standard, Musician
140pts

25 Clanrats
Standard, Musician
140pts

25 Clanrats
Standard, Musician
140pts

29 Stormvermin
Shields, Full Command, Warbanner, Ratling Gun
371pts

21 Plague Monks
Additional Hand Weapons, Full Command, Banner of Burning Hatred
218pts

20 Plague Monks
Additional Hand Weapons, Full Command
185pts

5 Gutter Runners
Poisoned Hand Weapons, Tunnelling Team
85pts

7 Jezzails
140pts

7 Plague Censer Bearers
119pts

7 Plague Censer Bearers
119pts

Total: 2243pts

So let's see...

1. *ping*
2. *one ping*
5. *ping*
8. *ping*
9. *ping*
16. *ping*
27. *ping*

7, so barely a soft list.

-Evii

Shamfrit
02-04-2009, 22:02
I stopped reading at Point 14.

the_picto
02-04-2009, 22:14
My vampires managed 8. You get 2 points just for playing vampires or daemons.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
02-04-2009, 22:25
I get 10 with with my greenskins, but I find that stubborn thing stupid, I mean stubborn on ld4 isn't that overpowering right. Or 3 savage units and a savage shaman with a 6+ wardsave. There still seem to be some flaws in it.

Darnok
02-04-2009, 22:28
I got a 9. Don't drink anything when you read the army for that score... Zombie Pirates! This just can't be true. I think I must have made some mistakes...


My vampires managed 8. You get 2 points just for playing vampires or daemons.

I got three for playing Zombie Pirates... :cries:

Edit
02-04-2009, 22:29
I got a 3! with my skaven:

more than 2 skirmishers
more than 3 shooters (since my 2 warpfire throwers count)
more than 3 characters

Mercules
02-04-2009, 22:30
c'mon, how hard is it really pinging wood elves?

Half the Army has Ward Saves.
Half the Army are Skirmishers.
More than half the Core units shoot, those that don't cause Fear.
Half the army causes Fear.

It hits them pretty hard. ;)

Laurela
02-04-2009, 22:36
My skink list has 8 8(, tear.

Wolf 11x
02-04-2009, 22:44
I'm at a bit of a loss. My Forest Spirit army gets a whopping 15 and my Lizardmen BARELY get 8, assuming you count the poison on the Stegadon crew. They hardly ever get to fire.

swarmofseals
02-04-2009, 22:47
c'mon, how hard is it really pinging wood elves? it's more than 3 shooting core, so you can have 3 units of glade guard core and not get pinged. Dyrads cause fear yes, but you need more than 3 to get pinged. So you can take just 3 units of dryads and not get pinged for that.

Dryads have a 5+ ward save, but again you need more than 3 units/characters with wards to get pinged.

So you can have a core of 3 units of glade guard and 3 units of dryads and only be pinged for having more than 2 skirmishing units.

The only thing they seem to get hurt more on is standards and ranked units.

Which are covered in 19-21 and 29-30. So if you take 0 standards and no ranked units of 15 or more you get 5pts. But you can easily decrease this by just taking a bsb(which tourney WE lists do anyway with the 2 treeman lists) and putting a standard in a unit of wild riders or something. Which leaves you at 3.

Then you could always take a unit of either 15 eternal guard with full command and not get pinged for it.

or you could just take the ping.

If you have 2 standards in your army and more than 3 skirmishing units then that's only 4 points being scored. Which leaves you wiggle room to still be a soft category army. So you can have your 3 dryad units, 3 glade guard units, wardancers, 4 characters and a treeman with wild riders which include a standard(or just stick a standard in a unit of glade guard)and still only score a 7-8.

1. for more than 3 ward save units/chacters.
2. for terror causer.
3. more than 3 skirmishers.
4. no ranked units of 20.
5. no ranked units of 15 with FC.
6. more than 3 fear causers.
7. 4 characters.
8. less than 3 standards(again this can be overcome by taking another cheap standard in a unit like glade guard to go along with the bsb and wild rider stanard).

So unless your characters are loaded with power or dispel dice or S6+ attacks, you should be safely in the soft category or low medium.


It isn't so much that wood elves inevitably get a high score... it's more that in order to get a low score you have VERY little flexibility in what you are able to take. That lack of flexibility feels out of line with the power level of the book, tbh.

Lord Dan
02-04-2009, 22:56
My Bretonnians got a zero... not sure if that's good or bad, but I've been doing fairly well with them considering I don't pray (I know, I know, 4 or 5 Bret players just keeled over).

I'll post up the list later to make sure I'm not missing something.

W0lf
02-04-2009, 22:58
Oh ok my WoC and vamps are both up another point.

Go go go 7 + 17.

Id like to see the DE lists that get so low lol. Anyone post there '4/5' DE lists?

Despite this i like the system. Yes WE get pinged alot but they are a hard army.

LKHERO
02-04-2009, 23:05
Oh ok my WoC and vamps are both up another point.

Go go go 7 + 17.

Id like to see the DE lists that get so low lol. Anyone post there '4/5' DE lists?

Despite this i like the system. Yes WE get pinged alot but they are a hard army.

My Star Dragon list is actually pretty low as well:


2246
Star Dragon

LORD:
Prince (Star Dragon, Halberd, AoC, VoD, AoL) = 621
Noble (BSB, Battle Banner, Dragon Prince) = 218
Mage (2x Dispell Scrolls) = 140

CORE:
10x Archers = 110
10x Archers = 110

SPECIAL:
9x Dragon Princes (FC, SoD, HoF) = 390
7x Sword Masters (Blade Lord) = 117
1x Lion Chariot = 140

RARE:
4x RBT = 400

This is like 6-7 points? It's a pretty hard list for "medium".

ZeroTwentythree
02-04-2009, 23:08
Half the Army has Ward Saves.
Half the Army are Skirmishers.
More than half the Core units shoot, those that don't cause Fear.
Half the army causes Fear.



Which, when combined with the standards and large ranked unit requirements, means that you have to carefully tailor a WE list within tight parameters that don't reflect the way the army was designed to work just to get them to a moderate comp level.

I'm not even a WE player, but I would feel pity for their comp scores in an even using this system.

W0lf
02-04-2009, 23:11
Playing wood elves -2 comp. ?

Oh and on characters.. id do it by pts spent not number taken.

Tae
02-04-2009, 23:12
Going through my 4 standard armies (WoC Tz, Sl and Nu, and DoC Sl) keeping running totals:

1. More than 7 casting dice. Bound items and
power stones count as 1 die each, as do the
additional dice allowed to 2nd generation
slaan or any other caster which generates
additional dice. Tz WoC Sl Nu
2. +1 point for each power die over 10. Tz
7. +1 for each special or named character,
including named unit champions. Tz Nu
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate
either dispel or casting dice.Tz WoC Sl DoC Sl
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.). Tz WoC Sl DoC Sl
12. Terror causer. Nu DoC Sl
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character. DoC Sl
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters. DoC Sl
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save. Tz DoC Sl
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better. DoC Sl
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit. DoC Sl
27. More than 1 magical standard. Nu
30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models. Tz WoC Sl Nu

Which, counting that all up I make it to be:
WoC Tz - 7
WoC Sl - 4
WoC Nu - 5
DoC Sl - 8

That doesn't seem overly cheesey, though no doubt I'm sure I've missed some points along the way (although believe me, I've been through them several times to make sure!)

Nabeshin1106
02-04-2009, 23:33
My mono-Slaanesh Daemons come in at 10.
Mixed Warriors of Chaos come in at 14

Shimmergloom
02-04-2009, 23:41
I get 10 with with my greenskins, but I find that stubborn thing stupid, I mean stubborn on ld4 isn't that overpowering right. Or 3 savage units and a savage shaman with a 6+ wardsave. There still seem to be some flaws in it.

It's in the list that they will place you in certain categories when warranted despite how you may show up on the charts.

For instance last year, I had a heavy medium(cause the list was penalized for many things that this year are not on the list) and that was partly cause I had 2 pump wagons and a giant, which for one thing was giving me more than 1 stubborn unit. I made the same comment that ld4 stubborn is not created equally with other stubborn units and the designers agreed and did not ping me for that.

So I am pretty sure that for those of you who'd have 8's or 12's or whatever and think some of the things you get hit for are unfair, could see yourselves lowered a category, depending on what you are getting hit on.

Kalec
03-04-2009, 00:11
Behold puny mortals, this is what an Empire list that scores 21 looks like!

I am assuming that warrior priest bound spells count for #1.

Volkmar
Luthor Huss
Warrior Priest with doomfire ring, talismin of protection, great weapon
Battlemage with Ring of Volans, crimson amulet

4 units of 5 knights
2 units of 10 halberdiers with 2 detachments of 5 archers each

3 mortars
5 inner circle knights with lances

2 units of 5 flaggellants

1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (+2), 8, 11, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 29, 30

If you have ever wanted to slap those hardcore DoC and VC lists around, this is the list. it scored 21 so it must be awesome.

Bum
03-04-2009, 00:16
4 For Skaven

9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).

BSB, Warlod, 2 Locks

16. More than 2 skirmishing units.

Two Units of 5 night runners, 1 unit of TT Gutter Runners

27. More than 1 magical standard.

War Banner + Banner of the Swarm

15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual
salamander counts as a war machine for this
item.

Rattling, Warpfire, WLC

Really not too bad. I play a Horde Skaven though and try not to cheese out.

EvC
03-04-2009, 00:21
My Warriors of Chaos score a hearty 3. I've only lost with them once in ten games :D

W0lf
03-04-2009, 00:26
LMAO @ Kalec. That is pure win.

Shamfrit
03-04-2009, 00:29
Lol, Kalec, that is pretty funny, and truly, a terrible list.

chivalrous
03-04-2009, 00:48
*chuckles*
3 points with my Dark Elf List.

17. More than 2 units with the poison special
rule.
3 or 4 Assassins

18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.
1 Unit of Executioners, 2 Bolt throwers.

24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better.
3 units of Dark Riders, 2 units of Harpies.

Assuming that when the list says "more than 2" it doesn't mean "equal to or more than 2"

I didn't bring my lists of books home with me this vacation (20,000 words to write over the next three weeks).

Lord Dan
03-04-2009, 01:02
Bretonnian Lord
Warhorse, Virtue of Confidence, Lance of Artois, Gauntlet of the Duel, Armor of Agilulf

Paladin
Virtue of Heroism, Enchanted Shield, Barded Warhorse, Lance

Paladin
BSB, Valorous Standard, Virtue of the Impetuous Knight, Questing Vow

5 Knights Errant

5 Knights Errant

8 KoTR
Full command, Twilight Banner

8 KoTR
Full command

24 M@A
Spears, Full command

24 M@A
Spears, Full command

10 M@A
Spears

10 M@A
Spears

10 M@A
Spears

10 Bowmen

10 Bowmen

8 Questing Knights
Full command, War Banner

3 Pegasus Knights

Trebuchet

So I double checked and I actually have 2 points. So much for 0.

Dranthar
03-04-2009, 01:05
Ooh, I like these games!


Goblin Army
Goblin Warboss on Foot w. stuff
Goblin BigBoss on Wolf w. Wollopas One hit Wunda and Brimstone Baulble
NG Shaman w. Nibblas Ring, Dispel Scroll
NG Shaman w. Staff of Sneaky Stealing

40 NG w. Full Cmd & Nets
40 NG w. Std, Musician, Nets & Fanatic
35 NG w. Std, Musician, Nets & 2 Fanatics
21 NGs w. Bows Musician & Fanatic
2x2 Snotlings
2x5 Wolf Riders
2x5 Spider Riders

5xTeam Squig Herd
10 Squig Hoppers
Stone Thrower
2x Spear Chukkas

Giant
Doom Diver

By my count, that's 5 points;
9. (More than 3 Characters)
12. (Terror causer)
13. (>1 Stubborn unit...snotlings FTW!)
15. (>2 War machines)
18. (>2 units/characters with S6+: Stone Chukka, Giant, Spear Chukkas, Big Boss)

13 and 18 don't seem particularly justified for my army, but it's still <8 so it remains a 'soft' army.

I can't be bothered writing up my VC list but at a glance it comes to 11, with most points coming from having a fair few power/dispel dice (10+bound/7 respectively) and the mere fact that it's Vampire counts. :rolleyes:

PARTYCHICORITA
03-04-2009, 01:11
My Dark elves score a 6 (5, 9, 12, 18, 19, 24) which is "soft" according to the chart thingy. They win most of their games though.
Here is the list:

-Dreadlord on foot; Soulrender, Armor of darkness, Pendant of Kaleth
-Sorceress, level 2 and 2 dispel scrolls
-Sorceress, level 2 and life taker
-Master on dark pegasus; heavy armor, shield, sea dragon cloak, Caledor's bane

-20 warriors, full command
-10 Xbow men with shields
-5 Dark rider with repeaters
-5 Dark rider with repeaters
-5 Harpies
-5 Harpies

-18 Black guard; banner of hag Graef, champion with crimson death

-2 Reaper Bolt throwers
-War Hydra
TOTAL 1999pts

Gensuke626
03-04-2009, 01:29
The hardest list, would be cool to see.

Also if anyone can make a legal 2250 pt list that but also scores a 0 on this scale(or as close as possible), I'd like to see as well! Bonus points if you can use at least 2 special and 1 rare slot, with more than 1 character.

I think I can do this.
Dark Elves:

Dreadlord- Whip of Agony, Armor of Eternal Servitude, Pendant of Khaeleth, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak

Sorceress- Lvl2, Focus Familiar, Dispell Scroll

15 Repeater Crossbowmen - W/ Shield and Full Command
15 Repeater Crossbowmen - W/ Shield and Full Command
15 Repeater Crossbowmen - W/ Shield and Full Command

5 Harpies
6 Harpies

10 Witch Elves - Full Command, Hag w/ Rune of Khaine
10 Witch Elves - Full Command, Hag w/ Rune of Khaine

20 Black Guard - Full Command, Standard of Hag Graef, Towermaster w/ Ring of Hotek

12 Cold One Knights - Full Command, Dreadknight w/ Deathpiercer

Reaper Bolt Thrower

If I did my calculations correctly this should come out to 2249 points with 111 models and 0 points on the Shimmergloom scale.

It has 1 Rare choice, 4 Special choices with only 1 repeat, 3 Core Choices, 1 Hero choice, 1 Lord Choice, No armor save greater than 2+, 1 character with a ward save and Regeneration, 2 units that can achieve S6 attacks, 2 units with poison attacks, 2 units of flyers (Skirmishers and >16" charge).

The only questionable part is the Sorceress. Power of the Darkness generates D3+1 power dice, so it might yield a total of 8 in a turn, but it may also yield nothing as it is possible to fail to cast the spell or have it dispelled. If this counts towards the Score then simply take away the sorceress's additional level and use the points to buy another cold one knight or drop 1 harpy from the unit of 6 and buy 4 more Witch Elves.

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 01:33
Dranthar, you also get a point for more the 16" charge range as you have a character and 2 wolf units which meet the criteria.

Kalec you have more than 3 characters so you get another point for 22, lol.

Lord Dan you get points for #11, #18(2 characters and the trebuchet can all get to S6+), #23 more than 2 units/characters with a ward save, #24 more than 2 units/characters with a 16" charge range or better and #27 more than 1 magical standard. If those bowmen are skirmishing you'd get a point for 3 skirmishing units as well.

So you have a 5 or 6, not a 2.

swarmofseals
03-04-2009, 02:42
Prepare to cry:

2250 points

Dreadlord- Deathmask, Ring of Darkness, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One Cloak, 2 Handbows

Master- 3 Null Talismans, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One Cloak, 2 Handbows

Master- Ring of Hotek, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One Cloak, 2 Handbows

Master- Battle Standard of Hag Graef, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Shield, Cold One Cloak, 2 Handbows

10 Warriors + standard (assassin goes here)
10 warriors (assassin goes here)
20 Warriors + FC (assassin goes here)

36 shades w/ great weapons, light armor (assassin goes here)

4x Assassins w/ Manbane, Rune of Khaine



Dinged for:

9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).

12. Terror causer.

17. More than 2 units with the poison special
rule. (assuming that assassins count as "units")

18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.


yes thats right -- a Shimmergloom score of 4 for this incredibly balanced and fair army list =)

Dranthar
03-04-2009, 02:53
Dranthar, you also get a point for more the 16" charge range as you have a character and 2 wolf units which meet the criteria.

Good Point. So I guess if I was tailoring the list to the Shimmergloom scoring system (although it begs one to ask 'why?'), dropping that Big Boss for more snotlings, spider riders and fanatics (assuming to only bolster the existing fanatic units) would reduce thescore by two.

I like this scoring system, although judging from some of the lists an arbitrary system like this would not be overly-difficult to 'break' if it was made public to the tournament attendees.

Gensuke626
03-04-2009, 02:54
I don't think a Shade Deathstar list is all that powerful...I think I could beat it with my 0 score list...

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 02:59
I think alot of people are calling it the shimmergloom score, but let me point out that I didn't make the list, nor did I really have any hand in designing it, other than complaining about some of the items last year, which have been left off this year.

I just posted my army list in the battle reports forum and talked about this comp system to explain the choices I made.

I also only bothered to alter my list down to a 7, cause I felt that nogg's banner and being an 8 in the long run would do less for me, than being in the soft category with a 7 would help me.

I would only even consider altering my list in a drastic fashion if I found myself with an 8, 12 or 17+.

I had made up about 6 lists, 4 of them were around 6-8. 1 was a 10 and 1 was an 11. The two higher ones had either 2 giants or a giant + wyvern and like 6 chukkas and as much as I thought last year that I would bring a wyvern this year, I could not justify having a wyvern and giant and putting all my faith into those 2 models and the chukkas at the expense of having an actual army.

So instead I looked at the other lists and the best list that looked the most balanced in multiple phases to me was an 8. So I just dropped nogg's from it and added an 8th svg. boar boy, to make that one a 7.

So for anyone looking at their lists and seeing a 10, I would not even think of making drastic changes to it, to get a 7, just for 3 more bonus points. But those with 8's or 12's I think everyone of those lists, can find something minor to change to bring their army lists down to the next level, without making huge changes, in order to pick up a few points in comp score.

Darkspear
03-04-2009, 03:43
I got 6 points for a very hard DE list (have not lost with it for months). My tombking army got 5 points (and it won 3rd in a tourney once although that is years ago). I think there is something wrong

Rioghan Murchadha
03-04-2009, 03:59
This is my normal Empire list (built to represent an ancient celtic shieldwall with minor supporting elements). I normally run it at 2000 even, with no magic items.

Unnamed2250 Pts - Empire Army

1 General of the Empire @ 226 Pts
General; Barding; Longbow; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Warhorse
Runefang [100]
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Captain @ 197 Pts
Barding; Full Plate Armor; Battle Standard; Warhorse
Imperial Banner [100]
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

1 Captain @ 110 Pts
Barding; Longbow; Heavy Armour; Shield; Warhorse
Sword of Righteous Steel [30]
1 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

19 Spearmen @ 280 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Sergeant @ [8] Pts
10 Detachment - Archer @ [80] Pts
Normal Bow
10 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [60] Pts
Light Armour; Shield

19 Spearmen @ 280 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Sergeant @ [8] Pts
10 Detachment - Archer @ [80] Pts
Normal Bow
10 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [60] Pts
Light Armour; Shield

19 Spearmen @ 280 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Sergeant @ [8] Pts
10 Detachment - Archer @ [80] Pts
Normal Bow
10 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [60] Pts
Light Armour; Shield

9 Knights of the Inner Circle @ 300 Pts
Barding; Lance; Full Plate Armor; Shield; Standard; Musician; Warhorse
1 Preceptor @ [16] Pts
10 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

19 Greatswords @ 290 Pts
Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Standard; Musician
1 Count's Champion @ [12] Pts
10 Detachment - Swordsmen @ [60] Pts
Light Armour; Shield

4 Outriders @ 129 Pts
Repeater Handgun; Light Armour; Musician; Warhorse
1 Outrider Champion @ [16] Pts
Repeater Handgun
5 Warhorse @ [0] Pts

21 Swordsmen @ 157 Pts
Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Duellist @ [10] Pts

Casting Pool: 2
Dispel Pool: 2
Models in Army: 190

Total Army Cost: 2249

As far as I can see, it's worth 0 under this system.

Lord Dan
03-04-2009, 05:15
Lord Dan you get points for #11, #18(2 characters and the trebuchet can all get to S6+), #23 more than 2 units/characters with a ward save, #24 more than 2 units/characters with a 16" charge range or better and #27 more than 1 magical standard. If those bowmen are skirmishing you'd get a point for 3 skirmishing units as well.

So you have a 5 or 6, not a 2.

I really don't pray with my army, so no #23. The bowmen aren't skirmishing. I'm dropping the war banner to buy another questing knight.

Didn't consider the trebuchet, so that leaves me with 3 I think. :)

LKHERO
03-04-2009, 05:21
I got 6 points for a very hard DE list (have not lost with it for months). My tombking army got 5 points (and it won 3rd in a tourney once although that is years ago). I think there is something wrong

Yeah... my very hard HE list hits a 6-7 when it's easily higher than that. It's running BSB Battlebanner, Star Dragon Prince, 4x RBT..

Kerill
03-04-2009, 05:28
My WOC get a score of 7, although two more marauders in a unit would make it a 6.

My lizards are also a 7.

It's not too bad a comp system but it's still easy enough to sneak some nastiness in, and I'd say both my lists are fairly strong without being cheesefests, really should be 11 or 12.

I think the Swedish one seems much better at preventing cheese builds, and it is remarkably detailed:

http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

It's also nice how it gives you comp boosts for taking crap stuff.

My WOC army would get 1814/6000 points and not be allowed at the tournament without a few minor modifications, seems fair enough to me.

My lizards would get a measly 850/6000 points but I've got massive negatives for magic defence things I'd drop for this kind of soft tournament.

Its a good system but IMO penalises magic a little bit too heavily relative to gunlines.

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 05:59
I really don't pray with my army, so no #23. The bowmen aren't skirmishing. I'm dropping the war banner to buy another questing knight.

Didn't consider the trebuchet, so that leaves me with 3 I think. :)

I doubt anyone would believe you wouldn't pray at all in 5 games. So it would count. Unless you were to announce you would never pray and they made sure every opponent you had knew that you could not pray. But that would be silly cause you're scoring a 5, so why nerf yourself like that when you don't need to?

And even if you drop the war banner, you had 3 magical banners, so you go from 3 to 2 but keep the point, since it's more than 1 magical banner which gets you a point. Valourous standard, Twilight Banner, War banner.

Lord Dan
03-04-2009, 06:08
I doubt anyone would believe you wouldn't pray at all in 5 games. So it would count. Unless you were to announce you would never pray and they made sure every opponent you had knew that you could not pray. But that would be silly cause you're scoring a 5, so why nerf yourself like that when you don't need to?

And even if you drop the war banner, you had 3 magical banners, so you go from 3 to 2 but keep the point, since it's more than 1 magical banner which gets you a point. Valourous standard, Twilight Banner, War banner.

You're right, I would never announce that I "never pray" so as to make it that I didn't have the option. A fair point. I will say, however, that in the 10 games I've played with that list I haven't prayed yet. ;)

I forgot I had the twilight banner.

5 points it is. :D

StormCrow
03-04-2009, 06:40
I think the Swedish one seems much better at preventing cheese builds, and it is remarkably detailed:

http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

It's also nice how it gives you comp boosts for taking crap stuff.

My WOC army would get 1814/6000 points and not be allowed at the tournament without a few minor modifications, seems fair enough to me.

My lizards would get a measly 850/6000 points but I've got massive negatives for magic defence things I'd drop for this kind of soft tournament.

Its a good system but IMO penalises magic a little bit too heavily relative to gunlines.

My tomb kings got 1460, and i thought it was a fair list!

I have to agree that the Swedish AC scoring seems to penalise you quite heavily for magic. I got slapped with -2600 points due to my magic ability and i only had 2 priests! Apart from that though it is quite an interesting read, something i might have to show to our resident vampire player :evilgrin:


EDIT: I just tested my tzeentch Daemon list on that Swedish AC generator; i got -2700...good thing i didn't start that army :o

Sirroelivan
03-04-2009, 10:24
I got 3508 on this WoC list I'm going to use on my club's tourney this weekend.

Characters:
Sorceror: Level 2, Chaos Steed, Power Familiar, Book of Secrets

Sorcerer : Level 2 , Chaos Steed, Rod of Torment

Exalted Hero : Halberd, Battle Standard Bearer, Mark of Slaanesh

Exalted Hero : Filth Mace, Bloodcurdling Roar, Mark of Slaanesh, Steed of Slaanesh

Core:
19 Marauders : Light Armour, Shield, Mark of Slaanesh, Chieftain, Standard Bearer, Musician

19 Marauders : Light Armour , Shield , Mark of Slaanesh , Chieftain, Standard Bearer, Musician

12 Chaos Warriors: Halberd, Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer: Rapturous Standard

5 Marauder Horsemen : Shield , Throwing Axe , Musician , Mark of Slaanesh

5 Warhounds

5 Warhounds


Special:
5 Chaos Knights : Standard Bearer : Banner of Rage

4 Ogres : Great Weapon , Chaos Armour , Mark of Khorne , Musician

Rare:
2 Chaos Spawns

It's funny though, I got bonus point for not having a lord, while in one of the scenarios we'll be playing, I'll be penalized for not including one.

Gharof von Carstein
03-04-2009, 10:31
im getting a score of 14 mainly because vampire characters are scored twice on the list... stupid biast list...

moose
03-04-2009, 10:41
Last Skaven 2.5k list i played:

Score of two! oO!

15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual salamander counts as a war machine for this item.
10 Jezzails + 2 Ratling Guns

16. More than 2 skirmishing units.
6 Gutter runners, 6 censer bearers, 2 units of poisonwinds

Tae
03-04-2009, 10:42
LOL @ the Sweedish list.

They obviously have a problem with cheesey Dark Elf and Daemon builds in Scandinavia is seems.

Autobot HQ
03-04-2009, 10:47
My 2000pts Dark Elves get 7, including 2 Hydras and a Dragon. My list seems to be on the edge of getting points however all the time.

Kerill
03-04-2009, 11:14
My tomb kings got 1460, and i thought it was a fair list!

I have to agree that the Swedish AC scoring seems to penalise you quite heavily for magic. I got slapped with -2600 points due to my magic ability and i only had 2 priests! Apart from that though it is quite an interesting read, something i might have to show to our resident vampire player :evilgrin:



Were you counting all the bonuses as well? The double points for any decent sized TK unit with FC should make a big difference.

My pure Tzeentch daemon army also gets raped by both comp systems since you pay twice (once for daemons and once for magic). Still they are hardly a fun army to play against so fair enough :)

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2009, 11:24
I think the Swedish one seems much better at preventing cheese builds, and it is remarkably detailed:

http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf


I don't think its a swedish system, looks like the Warhammer Players Society pack but maybe they've tweaked it. I can't read swedish so I can't understand the introduction.

squeekenator
03-04-2009, 11:34
My Skaven get a whopping 3 points for 4 characters, 10 S6 attacks and 8 power dice. Taking any number of Jezzails shouldn't give you an automatic +1, and having 9 BS3 shots will never overpower an army of over about 500 points, so I'm going to ignore that rule and declare that I have two points. Which is odd, since I've lost one game out of at least 50 during that army's lifetime.

Panzer MkIV
03-04-2009, 12:08
I get a paltry 2 for my Dwarf army

1 for having more than 2 units with S6+ (Dwarf lord and 2 cannons)
1 for having more than 2 warmachines (2 cannons and an Organ gun)

Very good:D

PaddyF
03-04-2009, 12:13
My VC come in at a weight watchers worthy 15.

Draconian77
03-04-2009, 12:19
Looks interesting, I'll post my list later and some guy with more free time than I can ring the *dings*. It does penalise DoC and VC's but, I mean, in a tournament setting aren't those the armies that need penalising?

Griffin
03-04-2009, 12:28
Lizzardmen Heavy Infantry + Magic List - Scored a 8.

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 13:10
1. 7+ casting. 3 shamans and 1 great shaman, the itty ring, and a powerstone or two. +1 (also this is all the magic items i have, in my army)(and yes so many mages because they tend to explode a lot) (but its mighty fun!)
2. +1 per effective "PD" over 10. +5+2
3. 6+ Dd , got seven as above +1
4. 2+ of the same special (regardless of how many you may purchase per slot.) huzzah 3 small squig hopper units +1
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless of "", zomg pump wagons, +1
6. More than 3 missile armed core units, Fanatics added to night goblins also count as a missile weapon. zomg 3 units with 1 fanatic per, +1
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate either dispel or casting dice. (damnit not again those mages 'll be the death of me) +1
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which cost two slots count as 2 characters.). (yep they'll defenitly be the death of me) +1
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a 50mm wide base (includes chariot bases). (did i mention my mages ride chariots? if only because if you put em in a unit and it squables, they cant cast) +1
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire counts unit/character. (whohoo pump wagons! Stubborn Ld4 ftw?,) +1
15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual Definitly those pump wagons. oh and lets not forget my chariots, or a set of bolt throwers, (or else the doomdiver)) +1
16. More than 2 skirmishing units. (damnit more points) +1
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, Includes war machine or any other missile weapon of S6 or above. (following previous logic fanatics is shooting, so that'd be a yes + bolt throwers ofc, else if i tailor the list a slight bit i'd be likely to get this, (per example: ditch 2 snottie wagons get doomdiver and im screwed) +1
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle standard. (hm.. i dont really give people that cant fight standards so no) +1
21. No standards included in the army. +1
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch charge or better. (whohoo those Mages/Chariots again, or else a small unit of wolfriders) +1


Fear my 21 points Goblin list of doom. Oh im so 'Ard!
wait what? this doesnt sound right.

Edit: this seriously is based on the army i run a lot with, (i admit i often win, but still... thats mostly due to me beeing just lucky.)
Edited: counting error as well as snotlings arent stubborn, well they are but you get my point...
edit: just realized as shimmer said a powerstone counts for two dice i made another counting error. fixed to 21

YTY
03-04-2009, 13:47
Sure you have done a big work to create that list. But there is no real way to make sure that the lists are "fair" by making a list of things that penalize you. By this rating, a powerful list can have a low score and a list that sucks can have a high score. The list also seems to be generally against magic, which is heavily penalized. If you like magic, even if its not so effective, you are hit by this composition system.

If you want to make "fair" lists with this system, they will be all the same. A bit of shooting, one or two wizards (both are useless in small amounts) and lots of big blocks. One big monster and one cavalry unit. Sounds boring to me.

This kind of custom rules or composition systems never really work. It just pisses of regular players and makes the WAAC-players make a list which is as cheesy as possible with the new comp rules. Result is that the cheesy lists are not the same old Thorek, Demons and VC but something else. And just the normal players who play for fun suffer.

PS. That swedish comp list is utterly rubbish. I would never play with those rules.

PPS. I dont play cheesy lists and am not defending my precious Demon or VC army (current army WOC with lots of warriors)

Scythe
03-04-2009, 14:15
Now that we found a deamon list that's soft we should see what's the hardest army you can put together :)

Ok, a reply to an older post, but I like the challenge to see how far I can bend these rules (in the wrong direction) ;)

Vampire Counts, points maxed:

core: 3x10 ghouls, hits 17 - 240 pts

core: 10 corpse carts, hits 26 - 750 pts

special: 3x3 fell bats, hits 4, 16 and 24 - 180 pts

chars:
vampire lord, lvl4, 6 casting dice, scabscratch, 2 power stones - hits 12 - 420

vampire, 3 casting dice, 2 power stones - 200 pts
vampire, 3 casting dice, 2 power stones - 200 pts
vampire, 3 casting dice, 2 power stones - 200 pts

characters: hit 8, 9 and 1 with ease. For 2, lets take a look:
2 dice base + 6 (lord) + 9 (hero vampires) + 8 (power stones) + 10 (bound spells) = 35 power dice equivallent. #2 accounts for 25 composition points then :evilgrin:

general: hits points 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 25, 29, 30

total points: 2190 (so still room, should anyone be bored enough)

total comp points: 42 :D

Malorian
03-04-2009, 14:47
You're right, I would never announce that I "never pray" so as to make it that I didn't have the option. A fair point. I will say, however, that in the 10 games I've played with that list I haven't prayed yet. ;)

You never pray? :wtf: *Slap*

Now go out there and pray like a real Bretonnian! :p

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 15:07
My 2000pts Dark Elves get 7, including 2 Hydras and a Dragon. My list seems to be on the edge of getting points however all the time.

Can you post this list. Cause 2 hydras alone will get you: 1. More than 1 large target. 2. Terror Causer. 3. More than 1 of any rare choice. 4. More than 1 regenerating unit/character.

Throwing in the dragon also gets you: 5. More than 2 of any character/unit on a 50mm or larger base.

Plus you are already close to getting points for more than 2 skirmishers, since hydras are skirmishers. And I can't remember if hydras are stubborn or not.

Mercules
03-04-2009, 16:10
Speaking of Wood Elves, my current army:
Treeman Ancient
-Annoyance of Netlings
-Cluster of Radiants
-Muster of Malevolents
-Murder of Spites
Spellsinger Lvl 2
-Calaingor's Stave
-Dispel Scroll
Spellsinger Lvl 2
-Deepwood Sphere
-Dispel Scroll
Waywatcher Kin Noble
-Xtra HW
-Hail of Doom Arrow
2x 10 Glade Guard
-Musician
3x 8 Dryad
-Champ
2x 5 Wild Riders of Kurnous
-Muscian(built in)
2x 9 Wardancers
-Musician & Champ
5 Waywatchers
-Champ

1. More than 7 casting dice. Bound items and
power stones count as 1 die each, as do the
additional dice allowed to 2nd generation
slaan or any other caster which generates
additional dice. 8 total =+1
2. +1 point for each power die over 10. +0
3. More than 2 dispel scrolls, or any item which
functions as a dispel scroll and/or more than
6 dispel dice.5DD and 2 Scrolls =+0
4. More than 2 of the same special unit,
regardless of how many you may purchase
per slot. +0
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless
of how many you may purchase per slot. +0
6. More than 3 missile armed core units whose
missile weapon is S3+. If Skaven weapon
teams, or an Empire shooting detachment are
added to a unit then that unit also counts as
being missile armed. Fanatics added to night
goblins also count as a missile weapon. +0
7. +1 for each special or named character,
including named unit champions. +0
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate
either dispel or casting dice. 3 total =+1
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.). 4 total =+1
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a
50mm wide base (includes chariot bases). +0
11. More than 3 heavy cavalry units. (Heavy
Cav means any cavalry unit with a 2+or
better armor save, and includes flying
cavalry.) +0
12. Terror causer. +1
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire
counts unit/character. +0
14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters. 5 total(Wildrider Cause Fear)=+1
15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual
salamander counts as a war machine for this
item. +0
16. More than 2 skirmishing units. 6 units=+1
17. More than 2 units with the poison special
rule.+0
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, by
any means (other than a spell cast on them
during the game), even if only during the
first round of combat or when charging. This
also includes any war machine or any other
missile weapon of S6 or above.only Treeman=+0
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle
standard. Standards which do not give
victory points do not count as standards for
this item. None=+1
20. No standards other than a battle standard. None=+1
21. No standards included in the army. None=+1
22. More than 2 units/characters with a 1+ or
better armor save. +0
23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save. 8 units=+1
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better. +0
25. More than 1 unbreakable, daemonic, or
vampire counts character/unit. +0
26. More than 1 regenerating character/unit. +0
27. More than 1 magical standard. +0
28. More than 1 large target. +0
29. No ranked infantry units of at least 15
models and full command. Beast herds
count as ranked infantry for Beasts of Chaos.
Ogre Kingdoms: any ogre unit of at least 3
models counts as ranked infantry. No ranked units=+1
30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models. +1

I was wrong. My list is 12, high end of the medium and it is not what most would call tough. :)

moose
03-04-2009, 16:10
Plus you are already close to getting points for more than 2 skirmishers, since hydras are skirmishers.


Hydras are skirmishers? what that's insane, 360degree charges from a hydra?

I think not...

The army book doesn't say it's a skirmisher...

Moose.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 16:14
Hydras are skirmishers? what that's insane, 360degree charges from a hydra?

I think not...

The army book doesn't say it's a skirmisher...

Moose.

Check again...

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 16:23
they'r right, (altought it would probaly help if they had explained why) a hydra has the rule Monsters and handelers. after you've looked that up and agree with that, page 58 & 98 dark elf book. look up page 67 in the big rule book.
(wich says monsters and handelers, are skirmishers (with some twists)

Edit: Ps Shimmer can you explain to me how that odd chart justifies 20 points for my poor defenceless lil goblins :wtf: they arent that overpowered.

moose
03-04-2009, 16:52
o.O i'll have to let my dark elf opponents know, I don't think they've realised!

Merci,
Moose.

Red_Duke
03-04-2009, 17:00
Lol, my TK get 10! :wtf: the single rare choice (bone giant) contributing a fair few on his own. Im sure as everyone know's its the singly most broken unit in the game afterall :rolleyes:

Bit harsh being punished for taking ushabti too, i should get points back for giving them a chance in an army ;)

I'd still just prefer GW to get their armybooks right and have at least a reasonable degree of balance, rather than the current craziness though, Comp can help, but it can also unbalance the game in unexpected ways in another direction too afterall

Peril
03-04-2009, 17:39
Anything 10 or less is a pretty reasonable army really.

Anything that triple-dings magic heavy armies is alright with me.

My orcs - 7
-Same Specia (Spear Chukkas, Rock Lobbas)
-Same Rare (Pump Wagons)
-Missile armed core (3 Spider Riders, Arrer Boys, Night Gobs with short bows)
-More than 3 characters
-50mm units (Pump Wagons)
-Terror causer (Wyvern)
-More than 2 war machines (Spear Chukkas, Rock Lobbas)

Having 4 pump wagons and 4 Spear Chukkas cost me 4 points. Darn those overpowered Pump Wagons!

Brets - 4
-Same Special (Mounted Yeomen)
-S6 units (Errants, Grail Knights, Bret Lord)
-16" Charge (3 Knight units, 3 Yeomen units)
-Ward Save (3 Characters, 3 Knight units)

Malorian
03-04-2009, 17:39
Edit: Ps Shimmer can you explain to me how that odd chart justifies 20 points for my poor defenceless lil goblins :wtf: they arent that overpowered.

Post the list. I'm guessing that if you got 20 you're not all that defenceless :p

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 17:52
they'r right, (altought it would probaly help if they had explained why) a hydra has the rule Monsters and handelers. after you've looked that up and agree with that, page 58 & 98 dark elf book. look up page 67 in the big rule book.
(wich says monsters and handelers, are skirmishers (with some twists)

Edit: Ps Shimmer can you explain to me how that odd chart justifies 20 points for my poor defenceless lil goblins :wtf: they arent that overpowered.

To start with you miscalculated. You're a 18 since you don't have more than 3 war machines if you only have 2 chukkas and you need more than 3 core shooting units and if you only have 3 fanatics, 1 per night goblin unit, you don't ping that either.

You say you got stubborn cause of the snots, I posted earlier, that I was getting that last year and talked to the organizers and they agreed that snotlings should not penalize you for their stupid stubborn rule.

So I think most would agree with that, bringing you to a 17.

So now to get out of the hard category all you need is to put in one measly banner and you'll be a 16.

If you're going to refuse to use any banners though, I can't blame the chart for rating you so high. You're playing magic heavy points denial, with lots of chariots, so yeah, you're going to ping high.

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 17:58
1. 7+ casting. 3 shamans and 1 great shaman, the itty ring, and a powerstone or two. +1 (also this is all the magic items i have, in my army)(and yes so many mages because they tend to explode a lot) (but its mighty fun!)
2. +1 per effective "PD" over 10. +5+2
3. 6+ Dd , got seven as above +1
4. 2+ of the same special (regardless of how many you may purchase per slot.) huzzah 3 small squig hopper units +1
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless of "", zomg pump wagons, +1
6. More than 3 missile armed core units, Fanatics added to night goblins also count as a missile weapon. zomg 3 units with 1 fanatic per, +1
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate either dispel or casting dice. (damnit not again those mages 'll be the death of me) +1
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which cost two slots count as 2 characters.). (yep they'll defenitly be the death of me) +1
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a 50mm wide base (includes chariot bases). (did i mention my mages ride chariots? if only because if you put em in a unit and it squables, they cant cast) +1
13. More than 1 stubborn, daemonic, or vampire counts unit/character. (whohoo pump wagons! Stubborn Ld4 ftw?,) +1
15. More than 2 war machines. Each individual Definitly those pump wagons. oh and lets not forget my chariots, or a set of bolt throwers (or else the doomdiver)) +1
16. More than 2 skirmishing units. (damnit more points) +1
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, Includes war machine or any other missile weapon of S6 or above. (following previous logic fanatics is shooting, so that'd be a yes + bolt throwers ofc, else if i tailor the list a slight bit i'd be likely to get this, (per example: ditch 2 snottie wagons get doomdiver and im screwed) +1
19. Less than 3 standards, including the battle standard. (hm.. i dont really give people that cant fight standards so no) +1
21. No standards included in the army. +1
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch charge or better. (whohoo those Mages/Chariots again, or else a small unit of wolfriders) +1


Fear my 21 points Goblin list of doom. Oh im so 'Ard!
wait what? this doesnt sound right.

Edit: this seriously is based on the army i run a lot with, (i admit i often win, but still... thats mostly due to me beeing just lucky.)

you could easely figure out the list by reading that but just for easy reference. (and so its easyer to spot my counting flaws)
The list is:
Chars.
1 great shaman on chariot (250)
3x shaman on chariot. 2 with a powerstone, 1 with itty ring (520)

Core
2x wolf riders, spear bow (70)
3x 30 Ngoblins with musician & 1 fanatic each. (3x 119=357)
1x 29 Ngoblins with muscian & 1 fanatic (116) (noticed i had some extra points (counting error), in wich case i tend to field more gob squads, more is always a good thing :) )
(either that or another wolf rider squad& some extra squigs, if i would tailor to those odd tournament rules, wich i normaly would never)

Special
3x Squig hopper unit of 7 (315)
2x bolt thrower/spear chukka (140)

Rare.
either,
2x pump wagon (80)
1x doomdiver. (80)
or
4x pump wagon. (160)

Total: 1998 (yes i tend to play with 2k like most) Your right my mistake the snots stubborn point, so comming in at (17-)19 (probs 4 fanatics, and probaly 3 warmachines).

Edit: counting error & as well as sorry hadnt seen your post yet gloom, was probaly typing mine while you posted yours.
just realized as shimmer said a powerstone counts for two dice i made another counting error. fixed to 21

Kerill
03-04-2009, 18:08
Looks fairly dirty for a greenskin army, being pinged hard seems fair enough to be honest.

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 18:13
the point is that i get a whopping 21 points, where i've seen demons and vamps etc here with worse armies with far far less

so im getting 21 just for wanting to be able to win a bit? :/ zomg. i'd be fine with i dunno 7 or so maybe even 10, but this just seems wrong.

Tough to be fair im not trying to score low on the chart i just wanted to know how my army(what i usualy field) would rank on that odd list. (using an army that i've ran with for quite some time now)
(and again to be fair i kinda have to try my best, my group is fairly competetive and has multiple vamp players(3), as well as one demon. (big group) )

Edit: with my list and your changes i'd still be at around 17-19, (and some random imba demons still around 8-10 or so) wich i think is still silly.
also corrected the same counting error (aka 21 not 19)

Kamenwati
03-04-2009, 18:26
Yeah, my TK weighed in at 10/11. Which is kinda fair given I run chariot heavy but the fact that way "harder" lists can get softer comp scores feels a bit off.

Hrogoff the Destructor
03-04-2009, 19:24
Hydras are skirmishers? what that's insane, 360degree charges from a hydra?

It's base size is too large for 360 line of sight for charging (even if it is a skirmisher), that is unless I'm imagining things.

Peril
03-04-2009, 19:30
The Hydra has a special rule that allows it to work like a skirmisher, sort-of. I think it requires arc of sight for charging, but otherwise can move through terrain like a skirmisher.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 19:34
Kinda scary when they start running at you through the trees! :eek:

WarlockOMork
03-04-2009, 19:39
literaly "Through" the trees indeed. i can immagine that looking scary.

(and yes uses its normal arc of sight for charging, but beyond that moves like a normal skirmisher, but can negate ranks, well if it has a high enough Us, believe that sums up the diffrences)

Drongol
03-04-2009, 19:44
Heh. My cookie-cutter OK list gets 9 points, which I find funny.

-8 (9) casting dice
-2 of the same Rare
-3 Wizards
-4 Characters
-Lots of fear causers (I find it funny that OK gets pinged for this)
-5 units/characters with S6+ (Ironguts and Tyrant)
-Less than 3 Standards
-No Standards
-2 Unbreakable units

List is (roughly)

Tyrant w/Tenderizer
Butcher w/Skullmantle and Dispel Scroll
Butcher w/Bangstick and Dispel Scroll
Butcher w/Siegebreaker

3 Bulls w/Bellower
3 Bulls w/Bellower
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
3 Ironguts
8 Gnoblar Trappers
20 Gnoblar Fighters
20 Gnoblar Fighters

3 Yhetees
3 Yhetees

Gorger
Gorger

Sure, it's about as "tough" as OK get, but it's hardly even a "weak" middle-tier force.

To be fair, it seems that this composition system goes after magic-heavy lists to some excess and is a little biased against Daemons and Undead, which isn't a bad thing. However, a few babies may be thrown out with the bathwater, if you catch my drift.

It also appears that the composition system favors deathstars over MSU builds, which I find interesting.

Drongol

slingersam
03-04-2009, 20:38
Ok I think I get a comp score of 7 or 8 but I'm not sure? Here it is:
Lizardmen 2000 Points

Lord
1x Saurus Old Blood – Cold One, Blade of Realities, Light Armor, Shield - 258

Hero
Skink Priest - E.T.O.G., Diadem of Power - 415
1x Skink Priest - 100
1x Skink Chief – Skaven Pelt Banner - 80
Special
7x Saurus Cold One Rider - Standard Bearer - 265
3x Terradon Riders - 90
3x Kroxigors - 165

Core
14x Spear Saurus - standard bearer - 180
13x Spear Saurus - 154
10x Skink Skirmisher - 70
10x Skink Skirmisher - 70

Rare
2x Razorden - 150

Total - 1999

Also the Skink Chief will be going with the spear saurus. Can someone see if I'm
even close or if I'm way off

pointyteeth
03-04-2009, 20:43
Well my list is at 11. The score seems appropriate to me.
2250 points
Lord:
Kholek Suneater

Hero:
Tzeentch Exalted on chaos steed - bronze armour, collar, favour, flail
Tzeentch Sorc on Disc - lvl 1, dispel, golden eye, roar
Nurgle sorc on chaos steed - lvl 2, dispel, power familiar

Core:
3 units of 5 Marauder Horsemen - flails

Special:
5 Tzeentch chaos knights - lances, champ, stand, blasted standard
5 Nurgle chaos knights - lances, champ, stand, war banner
5 forsaken

Rare:
Scylla Anfingrimm

Crube
03-04-2009, 20:56
I scored a mighty 15 for my normal Wood Elf list...

Many of my options for the army cost me more than once too... the double Treeman (Ancient plus a normal one), plus 2 spell singers hurts, as does the units of skirmishers - dryads x 2, scouts, wardancers.... The cavalry is all fast (so over 16" charge) and no ranked infantry. Dryads cause fear, as do Wild Riders on the charge... I have more than 3 missile units in core - we're elves :D

Seems to be designed to encourage the same sort of army build across all armies, rather than encouraging diversity. I freely admit the 2 Treemen are a little :cheese:, but the rest of my army is, to my mind, reflective of the background and works well with smaller units fighting within the woods, harranguing the enemy. IMO Elves dont rely on ranked infantry they are all about skirmishing, bow fire and fast moving. All the things this system penialises you for.

I like the idea - I really do, I just think it's too much of a cookie cutter idea. Certainly makes you think though

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 21:58
slingerslam you have:

1. I would say the diadem gives you an effective 9 power dice so that would count here.
9. More than 3 characters.
12. Terror Causer
14. More than 3 fear causers.
16. More than 2 skirmishing units.
17. More than 2 units with the poison special rule.
29. No ranked infantry with full command of at least 15 models.
30. No ranked infantry of at least 20 models.

So that's at least 8.

I don't know if they'd count the eotg as a war machine, to give you 3 war machines, or as counting it for generating power dice and dispel dice on it's own seperate from the skink priest. But even if they do, you are a low medium either way.

For Crube. 2 treemen are considered cheesy, so you'd be hit even harder from player scored comp than from this system.

But even from this system, the 2 treemen alone are giving you 2 large targets and 2 stubborn and more than 1 rare of the same type. Drop one and you could be a 12. Not to mention that for other categories they are adding 2 dice cause of their bound spells, both have 50mm or more bases, both have wards and both are S6.

So dropping one may or may not even bring you down lower.

I don't think you can just blame the system for your 15. Blame the 2 treemen.

I could have taken 2 giants and complained about how my army wasn't cheesy, it just had 2 giants. But instead of trying to get away with 2 giants, I just replaced one with something else and saved myself 3 points in comp score.

LKHERO
03-04-2009, 22:33
I would imagine this system scales with 2000 and 2250 point games.

It should also scale with the fact that certain races automatically receive points such as Vampires and Daemons.

Other armies that need certain units to even function such as Tomb King Chariots and Wood Elf Skrimishers should be considered as well.

I would say that certain armies start with a -negative score to compensate for this.

Shimmergloom
03-04-2009, 22:56
The skirmishers are 1pt.

Wood elves can deal with that. Wood elves don't double treemen to function. Wood elves are also not a soft army to begin with and shouldn't be surprised to see lists coming up with 10+ on the scale. And double treemen armies should not be surprised at all to see their lists higher on the scale than that.

EvC
04-04-2009, 00:07
Here's my list which I said was a "3" earlier. Just canned Shamfrit's Lizardmen in three turns thanks to some nice dice ;)
Lord on Jugger, S6
Exalted on Chariot, S7
Scroll Caddy
Warriors, magic standard
Marauders, full command
2 x Hounds
6 Horsemen
6 Knights, magic standard
4 Ogres, standard
Hellcannon

So let's tot it up...
1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10(check)/11 - all no
12 - yes
13 - no
14 - yes, I have Ogres, Hellcannon and Knights. Forgot about this earlier.
15/16/17 - no
18 - yes
19/20/21 - no
22 - my charioteer has a 1+ save vs shooting, but this seems like the kind of lame nitpicking system where everything is evil, so yes I guess.
23/24/25/26 - no
27 - yes
28/29/30

So actually a score of 5. Still soft and spectacular :D

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 00:40
The Host of Star-Finder Potl Njok

Slann Mage-Priest Kaelko
Battle Standard Bearer
The Focussed Rumination, Banehead, Plaque of Tepok

Scar Veteran Goq-0samma
Cold One, Light Armour
Enchanted Shield, Pirahna Blade

Skink Priest Potl Kjok
Lvl.2
Dispel Scroll, Engine of the Gods

---

12 Saurus
Banner, Musician, Spears

12 Saurus
Banner, Musician, Spears

10 Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes

10 Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes

10 Skink Skirmishers, Blowpipes

10 Skinks
Javelins, Shields, Musician Brave

---

5 Chameleon Skinks

5 Terradons

15 Temple Guard
Full Command

---

3 Razordons

---

So, here we go:

1. Ding
6. Ding
8. Ding
12. Ding
13. Ding
16. Ding
17. Ding (Biased much?)
29. Ding (Heaven forbid people use MSu as a WAAC hey?)
30. Ding...lol, No comment on this, seriously.

---

So my Lizardmen Score 9, so middle, which I can accept, but the justification of some of the categories is VERY biased towards the core mechanics and structures of several armies.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
04-04-2009, 01:02
My list:

Scar-Veteran- Burning Blade of Chotec, light armour, Enchanted Shield, Glyph Necklace- 165
Scar-Veteran- BSB, great weapon, light armour, shield, Venom of the Firefly Frog- 134
Skink Priest- Engine of the Gods, level 2, Plaque of Tepok, Curse Charm of Tepok- 425
Skink Priest- level 2, 2 Dispel Scrolls- 150
12 Saurus- spears, musician- 150
12 Saurus- spears, musician- 150
12 Saurus- spears, musician- 150
10 Skinks + 1 Kroxigor- 105
10 Skinks + 1 Kroxigor- 105
10 Skink Skirmishers- 70
10 Skink Skirmishers- 70
3 Terradons- 90
3 Terradons- 90
3 Terradons- 90
Stegadon- 235
Salamander Hunting Pack- extra crew- 80
Salamander Hunting Pack- extra crew- 80

Total: 2249


Going over the scoring system:



4. Check
5. Check
9. Check
12. Double Check
13. Double Check
14. Penta-check
16. (Do Flying Cavalry count?)
17. Oh come on, this bit was just out to get Lizardmen
18. Quadro-check (BSB, 2 Kroxigor, Engine)
19. Check
20. Check
24. Check
28. Double check
29. Check
30. Check


So I got a score of 15. So...yeah, apparently mine is a hard list (though I suppose the double Stegadons and multiple Terradons do push it in the hard direction).

Vilicate
04-04-2009, 01:20
My Dark Elves get a 2 or 3 - not sure if I get a point for the one that asks multiple specials - is it more than two of the same, or just two of the same?

My list:
Dreadlord w/ Soulrender, Ring and Armor of Darkness
Master w/ GW, SDC, HA and Shield; Pendant and BSB
24 Spearmen w/ FC and Warbanner
24 Spearmen w/ FC
25 Spearmen w/ FC
25 Spearmen w/ FC
10 Corsairs w/ Handbows, Champ w/2x R. Handbows
10 Corsairs w/ Handbows, Champ w/2x R. Handbows
5 Harpies
18 Witches w/ FC, Rune of Khaine on Hag
12 Black Guard
7 Shades w/ Great Weapons
8 Shades w/ Great Weapons
War Hydra

This is what I'm planning on taking to Quake City Rumble this year - I've only lost three times out of about 25-30 games. I've been really happy with the scores I've received from that Sweedish/WPS scoring system, which is the one that my store has picked up for RTTs.

Good deal, I'm happy to see that my list isn't cheesey under most comp systems. :)

happy_doctor
04-04-2009, 01:23
I will have to chime in with the rest of the people pointing out that the "swedish"/WPS composition system is the best I've seen floating around on the internet. They have taken the time to analyse power builds and find out what breaks an army.

What I like most is how the system gives with one hand and takes with the other; should you desire to field a dragon, noone is going to object as long as you refrain from taking an assortment of equally powerful units to accompany it, while minimizing any "poor" choices your list may have.

Plus, should tournament organizers decide that they want a harder/fluffier tournament, all they have to do is alter the minimum score required for the list to be accepted.

The lists I currently use all reside safely within the "soft" category of both systems:

Empire "TVI" list with a moderate amount of shooting (10 archers, 20 crossbows, HBVG and 2 mortars) gets a 7 / 3560

High Elves Chrace list with no magic or shooting gets a 7 / 4056

Pure Moulder Skaven get a 7 / 5000

Dwarves of the "Look Snorri!" variety oddly score a 3 in the "Shimmergloom" scale while being heavily comped in the swedish system for a total of approximately 3300 points.

This goes to show that each system considers different things as overpowering and penalises them accordingly. However, they both succeed in "screening" most of the broken lists and making sure that each army goes in the correct bracket. While I feel that my armies are soft, they are certainly fine-tuned after theme selection. Thus, no unnessecary "silly" choices that might give a considerable composition boost according to the WPS rulespack.

In fact, I challenge you lot to come up with a BROKEN list that would be accepted in a tournament using the WPS composition system.... I don't think it's possible and I'll be more than happy to promote the rulespack where I play, hoping it might change the metagame of the area.

enyoss
04-04-2009, 13:37
My High Elf list....

Noble, Temakador's Gauntlets, Chariot
Noble, BSB, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
Mage, Lvl 2, Silver Wand, Dispel Scroll, Power Stone
Mage, Lvl 2, Ring of Fury
20 Spearmen, Full Command + Warbanner
14 Seaguard, Standard & Musician
13 White Lions, Full Command + Lion Standard, Gem of Courage
8 Swordmasters, Champion
Chariot
6 Dragon Princes, Standard + Banner of Ellyrion
5 Reaver Knights
2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

2150
PD: 6 + 1 bound
DD: 4 + 1 Dispel Scroll

Shimmergloom's verdict?...

01) Yes
02) -
03) -
04) -
05) Yes
06) -
07) -
08) -
09) Yes
10) -
.
.
.
23) -
24) Yes
25) -
26) -
27) Yes
28) -
29) -
30) -

So, a score of 5 for me. The list doesn't do too badly in games either, and seems to be reasonably fun for my opponents.

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 13:58
I got about a 10 for my Lizardmen list. Not having any Stegadons helps but the 500pts Slann got a few marks against him (he can pump out 4-6 pd a turn by himself, plus there's two Skink Priests meaning about 12 pd a turn, 15 when I use a stone)

System seems overly biased against VC though.

Von Wibble
04-04-2009, 14:23
A tomb king army seems to really get hit by this. Its hardly the nastiest force going yet has in all likelihood 2 for having undead units in, 1 for 2 S6+ choices, 1 for terror, 1 for large targets, 1 for casting dice (a TK army without 8+ is going to struggle), 1 for fear, 1 for characters generating dice. That means pretty much no Tomb King army can count as soft unless it has just skeletons (without bows of course). Are they really that OP;)

craskie666
04-04-2009, 17:05
i got 14 for my demons which are on warseer

slingersam
04-04-2009, 18:51
slingerslam you have:

1. I would say the diadem gives you an effective 9 power dice so that would count here.
9. More than 3 characters.
12. Terror Causer
14. More than 3 fear causers.
16. More than 2 skirmishing units.
17. More than 2 units with the poison special rule.
29. No ranked infantry with full command of at least 15 models.
30. No ranked infantry of at least 20 models.

So that's at least 8.

I don't know if they'd count the eotg as a war machine, to give you 3 war machines, or as counting it for generating power dice and dispel dice on it's own seperate from the skink priest. But even if they do, you are a low medium either way.

I can't see the 3 units with the poison special rule, also the diadem of power
takes my power dice away not give them to me. Also I must have skipped the part were it says this is for 2250 list, so I made one the other day.
Here it is:
Lizardmen 2250

Lord
1x Saurus OldBlood – Cold One, Blade of Revered Tzunki, Bane Head. Enchanted Shield, light Armor – 280 points

Hero
1x Level 2 Skink Priest – E.T.O.G., diadem of power – 415 points
1x Level 2 Skink Priest – Plaque of Tepok – 115 points
1x Skink Chief – Skavenpelt Banner, Sword of the Hornet – 115 points

Core
17x Spear Saurus – Full Command – 234 points
15x Spear Saurus – Full Command – 210 points
10x Skink Skirmishers – 70 points
10x Skink Skirmishers – 70 points

Special
7x Cold One Riders – Commander, Standard Bearer, Plaque of Domination – 335
3x Terradon Riders – 90 points
3x Kroxigor – 165 points

Rare
2x Barbed Razordons – 150 points

Total – 2249 points

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 19:00
Slinger's right, the Diadem now only converts the Skink's Power dice into Dispel Dice, not vica-versa (No Black Periapt Cheese here sir!0

Crube
04-04-2009, 19:04
I'm not trying to say that 2 Treemen arent cheesy (How could I :cheese:), but the rest of the army I field generally lacks any form of cheddar.

Even if I drop 1 treeman, I end up fielding more skimishers or more missile troops, or both

The 2 treeman list i run generally gets quite good compostition scores so far. In fact I got more hassle for fielding more fast cavalry and wardancers...

Ah well, it's my army, I have to live with the consequences :D

Although I do stand by my comments that the system does seem to be geared towards cookie cutter armies and against themed or otherwise 'interesting' armies.

Just my 2p worth

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2009, 23:24
Although I do stand by my comments that the system does seem to be geared towards cookie cutter armies and against themed or otherwise 'interesting' armies.

One man's theme is another man's cheese I guess.

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:35
One man's theme is another man's cheese I guess.

I prefer Stilton myself ;)

Listen Shimmergloom, I'm all for this system, but, as has been addressed, I think it needs a little more flexibility and consideration for certain armies - I admire you for thinking it out, but if you refined it a little more I think the extra work would be very much worthwhile for everyone to use and that's a good thing!

Well done either way, now I've had time to think it through, it works pretty well :D

Peril
04-04-2009, 23:39
Crube, the list doesnt care about theme, only relative hardness. It is not intended to stop you from fielding the army you want.

Also, Shimmergloom didnt make the list.

Lord Dan
04-04-2009, 23:40
it needs a little more flexibility and consideration for certain armies

I know it's hard to convey sincerity on the internet when you quote someone else and ask a question, but I assure you I'm genuinely curious when I ask what armies you had in mind when you made this point?

When I first saw the chart I thought the same thing but couldn't think of anything specific.

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:55
Several concerns have been mraised for Wood Elves in particular, due to the fact that a vast majority of units, if not all, are either M8, Skirmishers or Fear Causer or equipped with bows. So without taking characters or the like, you're going to ping 2-3 dots without really pulling an army together which in turn leads me to believe that the system is biased towards X rule set.

My other concern was primarily towards Lizardmen, who typically have an MSU approach, and have a very large array of missile armed, poisoned, skirmishing troops, even if you take Cohorts, they still have STR3 Javelins. Which, as we all know, arn't the most effective of weapons except against very specific armies or targets. The Fear ding point also doesn't compute as it, as if often the case with characters, really only offers protection from other Fear causing units. I know for a fact that the only reason my Scar-Veteran causes Fear is to allow me the opportunity to charge full units of Fear Causer without 100% auto-breaking (I loathe that rule with a deep-seated aggression.)

Ogres, also, automatically ping several of the dots just because of the nature of the army. Few standards, MSU on 80% of lists I've faced.

I'd address things like 'No Ranked Units of 20 or more' to be 'only one,' because some armies can't feasibly field these sorts of units without sheer stupidity or sheer theming, I know it's intended to deviate away from the meta-game but if people start using 20+ units of Eternal Guard they're going to need more than Luck. I love this sort of 'based on the list' as opposed to 'not bring X or Y' lists, I just think it needs some sort of modification system to be implented succsesfully.

For example, mono-Forest Spirit Wood Elves +/- X amount. MSU armies +/- etc and so on.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-04-2009, 00:29
I don't think armies are supposed to be able to avoid the comp hits. The comp system is biased toward infantry without missile weapons which I think is a positive step. A wood elf army can be difficult to get to grips with because they are flighty so they take a comp hit for their nature and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

People like to play their games in different ways, the mere introduction of a comp system by a tournament organiser should scream "interference". Whether you like what is being interfered with is down to personal preference.

As I said in the battle report thread, I like this system as it hits most of the elements that should be hit. Its not perfect but, as has been pointed out, its a system that's evolving so it needs to be given time.

Shamfrit
05-04-2009, 00:38
Its not perfect but, as has been pointed out, its a system that's evolving so it needs to be given time.

Something I am willing to do - I'm just running through lists now to see what I can come up with whilst staying on the Lowest Tiers. So I couldn't agree more.

Lord 0
05-04-2009, 12:53
Garrison of the Arcane University of Thaumaturgy
Light Wizard Lord with Armour of Tarnus and the Mace of Helsturm

Battle Wizard: 3
Crystal Ball, Casket of Sorcery
Silver Horn, Wizard's Staff
Seal of Distruction

State troops

Spearmen 40
Swordsmen 20
Crossbowmen 20

Handgunners with full command 20
Swordsmen 10
Free Company 10

Archers 10

Pistoliers with full command 8

Cannon 2

1. X
2. XXXX
3. X

8. X
9. X

19. X

A total of 9, I believe. Hmmm, tricky. Do I drop 3 points somehow to get a softer bracket or do I take another 4 points of cheese to get me up to 13? Choices, choices, always choices.

sergio
05-04-2009, 14:15
my wood elf list runs kind of as follows:

-war dancer noble
-standard alter noble
-level 1 scroll caddy
-level 1 branchwraith

-2x10 glade guard
-2x8 dryads
-2x5 glade riders

-7/8 war dancers
-3 treekin
-5 wild riders
-6 wild riders w/ fc + war banner

-treeman
-5 way watchers


i think i had around 7 points, most of which came from:
-multiple skirmishers
-multiple fear causers
-not enough standard bearers
-too many units that can charge 16+"
-no ranked units
-multiple things with ward saves

it's a pretty average list i think, the only real 'hard' thing i have is the treeman

oh well

WarlockOMork
05-04-2009, 14:19
1. 7+ casting. 2 shamans & itty ring, (My mages still tend to explode a lot and my lore still isnt great, but i like using my spells,and i get penalized for that? :( ) +1
3. 6+ Dd , got six now (any less and ill get soundly trashed by any high magic player (like undead), actualy probaly still will with this ammount) +1
4. 2+ of the same special (regardless of how many you may purchase per slot.) huzzah 3 small squig hopper units/or else i'd still get 2x bolt thrower, (+1 for two bolt throwers that cant aim?) +1
5. More than 1 of the same rare unit, regardless of "", zomg pump wagons, everyone knows theyr horribly doverpowered, +1
6. More than 3 missile armed core units, Fanatics added to night goblins also count as a missile weapon. zomg so 4 units with 1 fanatic per are that dangerous?, +1
8. More than 2 characters/units which generate either dispel or casting dice. (damnit still ticking those mages + warboss with ring(, wich counted as a dice)? for just wanting avarage magic?) +1
9. More than 3 characters (Characters which cost two slots count as 2 characters.). (so im penalized simply because no matter what i build im probaly gonna need all 4? poor goblins) +1
10. More than 2 of any unit/character on a 50mm wide base (includes chariot bases). (Snotlings and pumpwagons got 50mm, and yay also double penalized for my pump wagons) +1
15. More than 2 war machines. a Single set of bolt throwers + the doomdiver is worth penalizing +1? +1
16. More than 2 skirmishing units. (and also again double penalized for those few squigs.) +1
18. More than 2 units/characters with S6+, Includes war machine or any other missile weapon of S6 or above. ((2 bolt throwers + doomdiver (double penalized for those? it must be in need of a nerf!) +1
24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch charge or better. (even if i'd remove my wolfriders the chars would still be on wolves(wich would mean they ping +/- over 4-5 times, Zomg goblin chars need a nerf Quick! Sillyness.) +1

So Fear my new 13 points Goblin list of doom. Oh im still so 'Ard!
and inmo this still doesnt sound right.

well according to you the previous list was rated as such because i played very magic heavy, with points deneyal, and with lots of chariots, so if i change/remove that its low?.
so moved to magic medium/low, almost no more points denayal, and no chariots(well unless you count pumpwagons? if you do zomg, nerf pumpwagons!).
so lets see, what im still a hefty 13? i remove most of my fun magic, (fun not powerfull), my chariots, and add free points for my enemy to capture, and i still get 13, i dont like this system :(

The new list is:
Chars.
1x Goblin Warboss on wolf, Enchanted shield, big boss 'at & itty ring (166) (mostly because i really need the leadership now)
1x Goblin big boss on wolf with battle standard Rowdy grotts big red raggedy banner (138)
2x lvl 2 shaman on wolf one with staff of stealing, one with dispell scrolls. (291) (just to not be completly slaughtered by any high end magic player,
and lvl 2 so i can actualy use them myself to do anything usefull, besides sitting there and looking pretty)
(all on wolves for the save as well as manuverability) (the chars have lots of multi pings)

Core
2x wolf riders, spear bow (140)
4x 30 Ngoblins with FC & 1 fanatic each. (4x 135=540) (gave them standards and champions this time, because the warbosses will be in them, (to accept chalanges and such))
1x 6x snotlings, (120) (to start off those two mages in, else they'll just go squabling and cant do anything)

Special
3x Squig hopper unit of 7 (315) (multi pings)
2x bolt thrower/spear chukka (140) (multi pings)

Rare.
2x pump wagon (80) (multi pings)
1x doomdiver. (80) (multi pings)

Total: 1994 (yes i tend to play with 2k like most)

Ps: Yay For my multi pinging units :wtf:.
PPs: i love the idea behind it, its a good concept but the point im trying to make with this, is to me this current list seems to be very biased versus some things.
like wanting some magic, msu, or skirmishers, or having the odd notion that having 4 wolves, or 1 fanatic in a unit etc is very strong.

GodlessM
05-04-2009, 14:31
This system is really bad in my opinion.

My Chaos army which I do well enough with got an 11, while my unbeaten Dark Elves that wipe the floor at tournaments got a 6.

Disciple of Caliban
05-04-2009, 14:46
PPs: i love the idea behind it, its a good concept but the point im trying to make with this, is to me this current list seems to be very biased versus some things.
like wanting some magic, msu, or skirmishers, or having the odd notion that having 4 wolves, or 1 fanatic in a unit etc is very strong.

Thats kind of the point. This comp system (like any other) is far from perfect, but the idea is that it forces people to consider their list, and what they can change to improve their odds.

Using your list as an example you could shuffle your fanatics around (though you could still field 4+) so that you dont incur a point for multilpe missile units. This is just one simple change.

Maybe you dont need 6 dispel dice, after all anyone that takes a lot of magic will end up on the higher end of the scale, so maybe magic heavy armies wont be too common?


I quite like the system, though like all other comp systems it only really serves to pigeon hole people into playing a specific type of force, and penalizes a few armies either by their very nature (tomb kings causing fear, wood elves fielding a lot of skirmishers etc) or because they try to adopt a specific theme (3 units of ironbreakers for dwarfs etc, or a chariot heavy high elf force).
Still i do think its a step in the right direction, tournament organisers should try and get people back into the mentality of units working together to win battles, rather than winning by fielding a hugh deathstar and going for points denial (though there should be a cap on the maximum number of points a single unit can cost)

sergio
05-04-2009, 16:22
Still i do think its a step in the right direction, tournament organisers should try and get people back into the mentality of units working together to win battles


but this comp system works against itself

an army like wood elves NEEDS lots of flyers/skirmishers/fast cav, because they need to have 4 of their units in combat to beat a full block of troops. and they get hosed for doing so.

Peril
05-04-2009, 16:41
Warlock, drop 1,3,and 8. You need more than 7 power and 6 dispel to get those.

Also, while the ring "counts as" a dice, your warboss does not actually generate dice.

That takes you to 10. perfectly reasonable.

WarlockOMork
05-04-2009, 16:43
Tought it was x+ meh, misread.
very well but then its still 10, for a not that powerfull list. (even after i removed most of what was considered the powerbase)
maybe its a reasonable score, but afaik most people would agree the greenies aint that tough (even more so if just goblin themed vs mixed). especialy vs the earlyer mentioned demon lists that could get away with 7 or so
Still the point was that some points are for completly unreasonable reasons to me. Ie the other 4-5 or so.

Edit: yes i could tailor the list to be very very little, but i want to play with my army they way i like it, not be forced to do something in way X. because thats less points for a completly stupid reason. (per example: yes i could toss all fanatics into one unit. but is that less overpowered then 1 in each? sillyness)

Another Edit: as somone said before me, it currently isnt that usefull, the cheesy players will keep having cheesy lists, just diffrent ones, while the people that play mostly for fun simply cant play the list they want without getting penalized for it(by beeing put into an even cheesyer league). The idea is a good one, but it simply just doesnt work. (at least as it is now)

Lord Dan
05-04-2009, 18:57
This system is really bad in my opinion.

My Chaos army which I do well enough with got an 11, while my unbeaten Dark Elves that wipe the floor at tournaments got a 6.

I blame your lists. :p

slingersam
05-04-2009, 19:36
This comp score is just for matching people up.
Low points get matched up with low points, and
higher points with higher points,

Dexter099
05-04-2009, 22:01
For my infantry list of WoC, I got a 0.

Yay!

Shimmergloom
06-04-2009, 00:00
I just got back from the tournament.

For all the complaining here about how it hurt wood elves, there were 3 of them there, (one even had Orion) and for all 26 armies at the tourney the highest score in comp was a 10 or 11(I think this was a high elf army with a dragon).

So no one was even in the upper medium of 12+. There was only one daemon army, but last I heard he went 3 and 0 in day one. I don't know what army won overall or best general.

I am pretty sure the daemon didn't win overall, cause his army was about 90% unpainted, so got no painting score at all.

Anyway, I'll be trying to write up some battle reports for it, in the battle reports forum.

And again, I didn't make the comp list, so no need to get mad at me about it.

Big Ned
06-04-2009, 00:09
I scored a massive 2 for my Bretonnian army.

23. More than 3 units/characters with a ward
save.
I have 4 units with ward, (2 KOTR, 1 PK and Grail reliquae) and 3 charcters (1 Lord, 1 BSB, and 1 Damsel)


24. More than 2 units/characters with a 16 inch
charge or better.
2 KOTR, 1PK, 1 Lord, 1 BSB, and 1 Damsel

TheDarkDuke
06-04-2009, 00:19
Wow this system makes Elves and Undead like +10 unless all your taking is warriors/skeletons.

My HE are coming in at 13 and would go up if I used my Chrace list which is weaker...
My Ogres are coming in at 5.
My Skaven come in at 8, and is predominately Pestilence...

What really throws this off IMO... My brothers TK which are a sad state of a list come in at 15!!!!!

Godgolden
06-04-2009, 00:24
WOC 'casual' infantry block army.

9. More than 3 characters (Characters which
cost two slots count as 2 characters.).

30. No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models.

----------------------------------------------------

2x 12 units of Khorne warriors with a exalted hero each

1 unit of TZ chosen warriors with wizard, and champion with book of secrets (lvl 1 wiz)

1 unit of maurauders (16 out the box unfortunately) with a exalted hero

Warshrine


Thats right Big Ned, i got 2, too :)

selone
06-04-2009, 00:31
I just got back from the tournament.

For all the complaining here about how it hurt wood elves, there were 3 of them there, (one even had Orion) and for all 26 armies at the tourney the highest score in comp was a 10 or 11(I think this was a high elf army with a dragon).

So no one was even in the upper medium of 12+. There was only one daemon army, but last I heard he went 3 and 0 in day one. I don't know what army won overall or best general.

I am pretty sure the daemon didn't win overall, cause his army was about 90% unpainted, so got no painting score at all.

Anyway, I'll be trying to write up some battle reports for it, in the battle reports forum.

And again, I didn't make the comp list, so no need to get mad at me about it.

Look forward to the BR's.

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 01:38
I still have a score of 0 in a competitive army and list.

slingersam
06-04-2009, 02:14
Can we see your list? Since you boasted twice about it.

Foegnasher
06-04-2009, 05:06
Skaven, are a 3

+1 for haveing 2 of the same rare
+1 for haveing 4 characters
+1 for haveing more than two skirmishers.

Lizard men came in at: 9
+1 More than 2 of any unit/character on a 50mm wide base (includes chariot bases).
+1. Terror causer.
+1 More than 1 stubborn units
+1 More than 3 fear causing units/characters.
+1 More than 2 skirmishing units.
+1 More than 2 units with the poison special
rule.
+1 Less than 3 standards
+1 more than 1 large target.
+1 No ranked infantry units of at least 20
models.

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 05:26
Can we see your list? Since you boasted twice about it.

I was just messing around, not really boasting since this list has a few weaknesses, but yes, here it is:



The Twsting Path: Warriors of Chaos 2250

Lords:

Orpheus, the Inevitable Doom: Aethersword, Chaos Runeshield, MoT, Word of Agony. 360 points.

Heroes:

Thulius, Exalted Champion of Chaos: MoT, Battle Standard Bearer, Doom Totem, MoT, Acid Ichor. 235 points.

Pulius, Sorceror of Chaos: 2 dispel scrolls, Acid Ichor. 160 points.

Core:

15 Warriors of Chaos: MoN, shields, Full Command. 300 points.

12 Warriors of Chaos: MoS, shields, Full Command. 232 points.

20 Marauders of Chaos: MoS, shields and light armor, Full Command. 150 points.

20 Marauders of Chaos: MoS, shields and light armor, Full Command. 150 points.

5 Marauder Horsemen: Flails, light armor, MoS, Throwing Spears, Champion, Musician. 113 points.

5 Marauder Horsemen: Shields, throwing axes, MoS, Musician. 96 points.

5 Warhounds of Chaos. 30 points.

5 Warhounds of Chaos. 30 points.

Special:

14 Chosen of Chaos: MoT, great weapons and shields, Full Command, Banner of Rage, Favor of the Gods (Champion). 404 points.

Total: 2250 points.

The Red Scourge
06-04-2009, 11:56
Wow!

I just ran this 20(or 22??) pt. WoC list in the weekend

3 Nurgle sniper sorcerors with 2 extra PD and one bound
1 Lvl 4 Tzeentch Daemon Prince

3 x 6 Marauder horsemen w. throwing axes
2 x 5 Chaos Knights with magic banners
2 x 3 Trolls
1 x 1 Chaos Giant

And I gatewayed both a Star Dragon and a Pendant Lord to the other side ;)

EvC
06-04-2009, 13:05
How very tactical of you ;)

The Red Scourge
06-04-2009, 15:15
How very tactical of you ;)

Yup. I was able to pick up my dice and roll them – I'm that good :cheese:

YTY
06-04-2009, 15:33
As stated before, this system just does not work well enough to be in a tourney ruleset. It favours some armies punishing other ones.

Also, some kind of lists that are not cheesy are trashed by this system. Look at the 15 point goblins or 15 point tomb kings. Or try to make any competitive list with WE, VC or DoC that isn't consireded :cheese: by this system.

Gazak Blacktoof
06-04-2009, 15:38
Or try to make any competitive list with WE, VC or DoC that isn't consireded :cheese: by this system.

You'll struggle to make a "competitive" army from any of those lists that isn't considered :cheese: by a lot of gamers anyway.

Silentbob10
06-04-2009, 15:57
Wootage i got 14 for my lizardman army :)

EvC
06-04-2009, 16:55
Okay, let's do my standard VC army:
Combat Lord 3 dice 1 bound
Wight King BSB
Necromancer 1 bound
Necromancer
2 x 20 Skeletons, Full Command, both got magic banners
12 Ghouls
7 Dogs
4 Bats
6 Knights, magic banner
4 Wraiths, Banshee
Black Coach

1 - equ. 9/10 dice
2/3/4/5/6/7 - no
8 - yes
9 - yes
10/11/ - no
12 - yes
13 - duh
14 - double duh
15/16/17/18/19/20/21/22/23 - no
24 - yes
25 - what's the point of this? It's the same as 13.
26 - no
27 - yes
28/29/30 - no

So my Vamps score a grand total of 9 points. The secret is to not be a cheesy git!

Shamfrit
06-04-2009, 17:06
As proven by the 22 point Goblin army I gather?

*Couldn't resist.*

Shimmergloom
06-04-2009, 17:50
yes, it was so tough for VC and DoC to make competitive armies with this system that they only finished 1st and 2nd overall for VC(3rd and 4th in battle points) and DoC won best General and only finished 6th overall cause he got 0 in his paint score.

Keep in mind that there was only 2 VC and 1 DoC army out of the 26 armies at the tourney.

I talked to a couple of people at lunch yesterday and they agreed that while this system is giving auto-points for having VC and DoC armies, that if it's stopping them and HE players from showing up with 16 power dice, then that's the main purpose of the system, which is better for all players involved.

It didn't look to me like this system hurt them at all. It probably helped them more, cause their opponents could not retaliate by marking them down on a player scored comp system for being VC or DoC players and helped them, cause with their opponents knowing that they had reasonable army builds, they also were not retaliating by giving them bad sportsmenship scores.

EvC
06-04-2009, 18:56
As proven by the 22 point Goblin army I gather?

*Couldn't resist.*

Well, I assume you mean the 19 point list, which featured 4 spellcasters in chariots and tonnes of warmachines and not a single standard in the army, which no doubt works by throwing endless rubbish blocks worth almost nothing at the enemy, whilst the chariots whizz around, cast loads of magic and even get a few flanks at the rank-breaking US5. Sounds about right, really! Though I reckon my list would 'ave it for breakfast anyway ;)

WarlockOMork
06-04-2009, 19:02
yeah thats more or less how it works,
and dont doubt that you would, most probaly will.
(wich was kinda my point, 21 for something most can either take on, or simply 'ave for breakfast, doesnt sound verry correct does it.)

Edit counting error

Kalec
07-04-2009, 01:22
What about my mighty 22 point Empire army? Did I take too many blocks of cavalry that have trouble beating goblins? Or was it my min-sized units of flagellants, haberdiers, and archers that made it overpowered? How about the three mortars, those have to be absurdly cheesy because they're warmachines, right?

Ganymede
07-04-2009, 03:14
My regular list earned itself a coveted 4 under this scoring system. Not too bad at all for a Best General earning armylist.

Peril
07-04-2009, 03:19
Kalec - post the list.

EvC
07-04-2009, 11:54
This is Kalec's:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3433168#post3433168
Two special characters, all casters of some sort, then lots of knights, some uselss infantry units. All in all a stupid kind of army, so I don't mind seeing it penalised ;)

Lordmonkey
07-04-2009, 13:11
My Dark Elves get 6 (soft)
My Vampire Counts get 10 (medium)

Obviously my VC's aren't competitive enough!

Von Wibble
07-04-2009, 14:55
I was just messing around, not really boasting since this list has a few weaknesses, but yes, here it is:



The Twsting Path: Warriors of Chaos 2250

Lords:

Orpheus, the Inevitable Doom: Aethersword, Chaos Runeshield, MoT, Word of Agony. 360 points.

Heroes:

Thulius, Exalted Champion of Chaos: MoT, Battle Standard Bearer, Doom Totem, MoT, Acid Ichor. 235 points.

Pulius, Sorceror of Chaos: 2 dispel scrolls, Acid Ichor. 160 points.

Core:

15 Warriors of Chaos: MoN, shields, Full Command. 300 points.

12 Warriors of Chaos: MoS, shields, Full Command. 232 points.

20 Marauders of Chaos: MoS, shields and light armor, Full Command. 150 points.

20 Marauders of Chaos: MoS, shields and light armor, Full Command. 150 points.

5 Marauder Horsemen: Flails, light armor, MoS, Throwing Spears, Champion, Musician. 113 points.

5 Marauder Horsemen: Shields, throwing axes, MoS, Musician. 96 points.

5 Warhounds of Chaos. 30 points.

5 Warhounds of Chaos. 30 points.

Special:

14 Chosen of Chaos: MoT, great weapons and shields, Full Command, Banner of Rage, Favor of the Gods (Champion). 404 points.

Total: 2250 points.

2 magic standards, 2 units with charge of 16". Its not a 0.

Shimmergloom
07-04-2009, 20:05
Posted my first battle report from the tourney at my battle reports thread.

Dexter099
08-04-2009, 02:05
2 magic standards, 2 units with charge of 16". Its not a 0.

Actually, it's just a 1. It's more than 2 units with a charge range of 16, not 2 units.

The magic standards is all.

Von Wibble
08-04-2009, 13:26
Quite right. Its still not a 0 though ;)

To be fair its a nice list, one I would be quite happy to face and get a good game against.

Shimmergloom - out of interest, how exactly did tomb kings fare? Since they also get auto points for being undead, and need lots of spellcasters, chariots (which incidentally have a 50mm base), etc.

eagletsi1
08-04-2009, 15:24
My Ogres have a 4 Soft

lparigi34
08-04-2009, 15:56
So many unbeaten lists... why don't you organize a tourney amongst yourselves?

Just to see the how the real "unbeaten" list looks like" :D

No offense guys, just could not hold it... :angel:

Briohmar
08-04-2009, 16:06
So my Warriors army comes in at an 8 and my Daemons come in at a 10. Both Medium. I find it rather odd that you get zapped twice for infantry units, once for being under 15 and then again for under 20. Daemons and undead get unduly punished just for being daemons or undead as well. But hey, my Daemons seem to be coming in lower than a lot of non-hard armies. I guess I'm just a nice guy, even playing my rather fluffy Daemon list.

Zoolander
08-04-2009, 16:18
Yes... any other daemon core unit that acts as a spell caster bumping up casting dice and dispel dice. :)

And fight like skeletons...:rolleyes:

Tyranno1
08-04-2009, 17:22
Wow, my 3 steg and carnsaur army got a 14, nice.

LKHERO
08-04-2009, 17:25
Where would this DE list rank?

Dreadlord, Black Dragon, 4+ armor, inverse ward, regen, and str6 weapon
Hero BSB on Manticore with 1+ armor and KB lance

4 units of 5x Dark Riders
10x Shades w/ Assassin w/ RoK, Manbane
6x Cold One Knights FC w/ Banner of Murder + Ring of Hotek

2x Hydra

Zoolander
08-04-2009, 18:07
Shimmergloom, I like the idea behind this scoring system, I really do. But I find it inherently flawed for the reason that many armies are penalized for things that aren't that powerful, and that it doesn't take into account the nasty combos that make each army horrible to play against. For example, 12 PD with a VC list can be very painful with ION spamming, but 12 "PD" with the TK isn't really that bad. Here are the list of armies that I play and their scores, in order of power:

VC - 12 (heavy magic lead force, no regen banner, no blood knights, lots of zombies and skellies) Makes sense, still undefeated at this point, but actually should be a bit higher - closer to 15, IMO, if not higher!
TK - 12 (also a heavy magic lead force with lots of bowman) Makes no sense at all, is at the bottom of the power barrel next to OK. Defeated frequently.
WE - 11 (Shooty, skirmish asrai army) This army gets dinged a lot because of the shooting, lack of banners, and skirmishers all over the place. But honestly, it really isn't anything compared to the VC list above it, and far overpowers the TK list which scored more. The score isn't too far off the mark, though.
DoC - 9 (BT lead, 10 PD, lots of core) The fact this army didn't rank first is laughable. THIS is why daemons are so nasty. It only ranks an 11 on the chart, a medium list, but yet is lead by a BT (a fighty character with terror and a 20" move), and also has 10 PD! If I bring this list to a friendly game, my opponent should start thowing dice at me immediately. No way in hell is this a "medium" strength list. It's frickin' nasty and I've only lost twice (once to another daemon, and once to an empire pope coach/steam tank lead unbreakable list). It certainly is *much* worse than the WE list with a higher score! Maybe if your scoring had #31 - Using a greater daemon - +3. LOL
LM - 9 (Slann lead, 2 Steggys, lots of core and 1 sally unit). Might have scored higher, but since steggy mounts don't count as rare, and terror causers only count once. Probably should be closer to 12, IMO, but not too far off the mark. Certainly not as nasty as the DoC list above with the same score.
WoC - 8 (sorceror lead, only 2 characters, 1 rare, 1 unit of knights, mostly blocks of warriors, 2 units of fast cav). Probably the only list I have that I think scores appropriately.
DE - 6 (Lord lead, 2 assassins, lots of shooting, 2 fast cav, 1 hydra). Really? This list is also undefeated, so either I'm just the best general in then world (LOL - not!), or the scoring is a tad off. This is anything BUT "soft". More like a 12 IMO, if not higher! I'd say this list's score is the most "off the mark".
Brets - 4 (Lord lead, 4 units of knights, 1 flying unit, 2 blocks of core, 2 shooting core, 4 characters). Nothing really OP in this list. It is also undefeated, but I rarely play it, so I can't really say it's gotten enough testing. It's never faced DoC or VC. Before the new VC and Daemons, I would be rolling on the floor with a score of 4. However, with the advent of so many unbreakable units out there, the Brets have fallen out of grace. Still, I would rank them easily a 10-12.

So this goes to show you how far off the mark this scoring system is. Nearly every list I made scored quite a bit off the mark. Maybe if used ONLY for Daemons and VC, it might work, but it really can not be applied fairly to every army out there.

One adjustment to the list might be #14. More than 3 fear causing units/characters. You may want to include terror causers as well. If I take 5 steggys, for example, I only score 1 for having a terror causer (2 are mounts, 2 are special, 1 is rare), and 1 for poisons. That's just not right.

Again, like the concept behind it, disagree with the implementation of it.

If you really wanted to make a fair scoring system, each army would have their own scores. This would take into account each army's cheese factor. For example:

VC - Drakenoff Banner +1, Drakenhoff Banner + Blood Knights +1, Banner + Ward Banner + Knights +1 (+3, shoot me now). More than 10 PD +1, +1 for each above that, etc.
DoC - Using a GD +3, using more than 1 unit of flamers +1, using more than 2 heralds in (separate) units +1, using special characters (shoot me now).
HE - Using star dragon +1, using lord on said dragon +1, using lord on dragon with 4+ ward and 2+ reroll armor (begin throwing dice), using more than 2 bolt throwers +1.
DE - Using more than 1 hydra +1, using ASF banner in black guard +1, using more than 1 assassin +1, more than 2 bolt throwers +1, using rink of hotek +1, etc.
Dwarves - Using more than 4 war machines +1, using Thorak + 4 or more war machines (let the beatings begin!).
TK - Using more than 1 Scorpion +1, using 4 characters - NP your characters suck LOL, using casket + 4 casters +1, etc.
Brets - More than 3 units of knights +1, etc.
Empire - Taking pope coach +1, taking steam tank +1, taking both (where'd I leave that gun?), taking 2 or more fear units +1, taking 2 or more unbreakable units (even by special ability or spell) +!, etc.

Also, I would argue that not having a banner in a unit can be more of a detriment than a bonus in many units. With dryads, for example, they cannot rank up or take banners, so against any block unit they are already -4 CR, and cannot break ties. This is much more of a hindrance than giving the opponent VP for collecting it. However, in a unit of glade guard, a banner could be an easy VP collection. It all depends on the unit in question. The rule of thumb that I follow is - not all units need a banner! At the very least, you should only be docked if you *could* take a banner and refused (glade guard), as opposed to units that cannot take one even if you wanted to (dryads).

In the end, it's going to amount to each person's opinion on what they consider cheese. I once played an opponent that called cheese because I had two bolt throwers. To each his own! Cheers!

Shimmergloom
08-04-2009, 21:11
Quite right. Its still not a 0 though ;)

To be fair its a nice list, one I would be quite happy to face and get a good game against.

Shimmergloom - out of interest, how exactly did tomb kings fare? Since they also get auto points for being undead, and need lots of spellcasters, chariots (which incidentally have a 50mm base), etc.

There were no tomb kings at the tourney.

There were 26 players. 9 woc(one troll), 3de, 2he, 2vc, 2 skaven, 2we, 2 ogre, 1 o&g(me), 1 dwarf, 1 empire, 1 DoC.

Shimmergloom
08-04-2009, 21:21
Again, stop blaming me for this scoring system.

This is just the scoring system for the tourney I went to. I did not design it, but I do like it and think that it does a good job of ensuring that most of the more annoying things are toned down.

Such as skirmish hammer, magic hammer and cav-hammer. While promoting infantry.

It is still a work in progress and has already seen improvments over the scoring from last year.

Yes it does seem to single out some armies like vc and doc. And yet those armies who brought lists of 10 or less on this scale, still dominated the tourney. With an unpainted DoC winning the most battle points(he probably wins overall if he's painted) and VC getting 1 and 2 overall.

And for everyone complaining out things like we skirmishers or tomb king magic are being unfairly singled out. I can say the same things about greenskins or ogres and beasts. All 3 are the low armies on the totem pole, but all 3 get automatic hits from basic things that they must have to be competitive.

Such as characters, chukkas and chariots for greenskins. Chariots, skirmishers and characters for beasts. And magic, high S ironguts and gorgers for ogres.

Are 2 gorgers as bad as two hydras or two steam tanks?

Of course not, but both get the +1 for multiples of the same rare.

Concessions must be made though to keep it as fair as possible.

Peril
08-04-2009, 21:33
Agreed Shimmer. It bears repeating that having a "medium" army of any kind is not bad. If you are in the "hard" range, it just means your army has something in that may or not be powerful, but is almost certainly annoying to your opponents.

WarlockOMork
08-04-2009, 21:33
Never did blame anyone, sorry if i gave you that feeling.
just said in its current form it wasnt perfect yet. and pointed out some reasons.

on a side note, good to hear its still work in progress, as i like the idea.
as well as that its a known issue that low totem pole armies get hits just for the things they need to be competetive. (things like greenskin chars & chukka's)

That was the only point i wanted to make.

but if this keeps 14+ dice vamps, etc. away. its a good start.
(Ps liking your battle reports, nice and clearly defined phases make it a fun/easy read)

Edit: missed the last post, while i was typing this one.
doesnt have to be anoying to get a hard score, simply wanting to be competetive/win with a pre-penalized army also works.

Awilla the Hun
08-04-2009, 22:00
The Red Guards got a solitary 5 points, I think.

Zoolander
08-04-2009, 22:44
I apologize for blaming you, Shimmer, but in my defense, with a title of a post like "What's your shimmergloom's score?", one has to assume... ;)

selone
08-04-2009, 22:55
But in his defense he didn't make the thread title ;)

Malorian
08-04-2009, 22:59
I'm sorry for this. I called it this because it came from Shimmergloom's battle report thread.

I thought people would want to check out their score and never even considered that he would be blamed for it.

bob_the_small
08-04-2009, 23:21
1 of my DE armies is 18, the other (friendly) 8

Dexter099
09-04-2009, 04:22
Quite right. Its still not a 0 though ;)

Yeah, it's too bad...:cries:


To be fair its a nice list, one I would be quite happy to face and get a good game against.


Thanks. I've only had one game with it versus magic heavy dark elves, and it drew with them. The Dark Elf general is a good Dark Elf general, so I'm happy with the list. I would have won, had I not forgotten the Word of Pain when his Assassin beheaded my Chaos Lord. :o

blackjack
09-04-2009, 05:34
My standard list

18 Spear Saurus, Standard
16 Temple Guard, Standard, Music

Scar Vet
Cold One
Light Armor
Enchanted Shield
Pirhana Blade

Slann
Focused Rumination
Focus of Mystery
Becalming Cogitation
Bane Head
BSB

Skink Priest
Level 2 Wizard
Plaque of Tepok
Engine of the Gods

4 Teradons

5 Cold One Riders

10 skirmish skinks
10 skirmish skinks
10 skirmish skinks

10 Rank Skinks
10 Rank Skinks

1 Salamander, extra crew
1 Salamander, extra crew

Comes to 10 assuming Focused Rumination counts as 3 power dice.

FictionalCharacter
09-04-2009, 18:07
off the top of my head, my vc list comes in right around 13.

the fact that three or four points come exclusively because i happen to play vc is as hilarious as it is ridiculous.

Shimmergloom
10-04-2009, 00:16
more than 3 fear, more than one unbreakable character, unbreakable units.

There's only 3 that you can say you hit from vc. And all 3 of those need to be addressed.

a 4pt zombie is essentially getting fear and unbreakable for free these days. It's not an even matchup for armies who actually deal with psychology to go up against unbreakable fear causing armies. To complain that your unbreakable army is burdened by getting 3 auto-comp points for being unbreakable and fear causing, because GW refuses to balance their books in any reasonable manner and yet ignoring how 4 chukkas which are all but mandatory for greenskins ticks off 3 points for them as well, is what is really laughable and a bit ridiculous.

selone
10-04-2009, 00:53
Agreed shimmergloom :)

FictionalCharacter
10-04-2009, 12:34
more than 3 fear, more than one unbreakable character, unbreakable units.

There's only 3 that you can say you hit from vc. And all 3 of those need to be addressed.

a 4pt zombie is essentially getting fear and unbreakable for free these days. It's not an even matchup for armies who actually deal with psychology to go up against unbreakable fear causing armies. To complain that your unbreakable army is burdened by getting 3 auto-comp points for being unbreakable and fear causing, because GW refuses to balance their books in any reasonable manner and yet ignoring how 4 chukkas which are all but mandatory for greenskins ticks off 3 points for them as well, is what is really laughable and a bit ridiculous.

i'm not complaining. i said i think it's hilarious. pretty sure vc fear and immunity to psychology is (at least in theory) balanced by the horrible horrible stat line of most vc core. that four point zombie won't beat a three point goblin in raw combat, for instance. if the game is really so imbalanced that simple army selection determines 'fairness' or whatever you want to call it, then perhaps gw should either balance the game better or acknowledge tiered armies instead of some weird amorphous middle ground.

and granted, i've never played orcs and goblins, but talking about builds seems to me to be wholly different than quantifying the list as a whole. well done pointing out another apparent flaw in this system, though.

like many people have said (including you), i think there are plenty enough eccentricities among individual armies to render a scoring system like this difficult to comprehensively implement. this is the whole point of the point costs for units. if that's well-developed, then this whole thing is unnecessary. and personally, i don't think this scoring system is any better developed than points costs.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-04-2009, 12:52
perhaps gw should either balance the game better or acknowledge tiered armies instead of some weird amorphous middle ground.

Yes, but in the mean time people want a solution, that means comp, house rules or scenarios outside of a gentlemanly agreement.

Voodoo Boyz
10-04-2009, 14:34
i'm not complaining. i said i think it's hilarious. pretty sure vc fear and immunity to psychology is (at least in theory) balanced by the horrible horrible stat line of most vc core.

No, it's really not. That's entirely the problem with VC (or one of them) and it's why you basically get 4 Auto-Ding's for playing something like VC, Daemons, or Tomb Kings.

FictionalCharacter
10-04-2009, 14:38
Yes, but in the mean time people want a solution, that means comp, house rules or scenarios outside of a gentlemanly agreement.

i haven't disputed that at all. i was just getting nitpicky about why i don't think this particular system is suitably comprehensive, and how difficult it would be to draft a scoring system that is.


No, it's really not. That's entirely the problem with VC (or one of them) and it's why you basically get 4 Auto-Ding's for playing something like VC, Daemons, or Tomb Kings.

i really just don't think the fear and immunity give that much of an automatic advantage. i think it can be exploited fairly easily by vc magic, but i'd personally find fault in the lore of the vampires, which coincidentally can't possibly be covered by this system at all...

Shimmergloom
10-04-2009, 19:26
i'm not complaining. i said i think it's hilarious. pretty sure vc fear and immunity to psychology is (at least in theory) balanced by the horrible horrible stat line of most vc core. that four point zombie won't beat a three point goblin in raw combat, for instance. if the game is really so imbalanced that simple army selection determines 'fairness' or whatever you want to call it, then perhaps gw should either balance the game better or acknowledge tiered armies instead of some weird amorphous middle ground.

and granted, i've never played orcs and goblins, but talking about builds seems to me to be wholly different than quantifying the list as a whole. well done pointing out another apparent flaw in this system, though.

like many people have said (including you), i think there are plenty enough eccentricities among individual armies to render a scoring system like this difficult to comprehensively implement. this is the whole point of the point costs for units. if that's well-developed, then this whole thing is unnecessary. and personally, i don't think this scoring system is any better developed than points costs.

20 zombies buys 26 goblins.

Those 26 goblins either have to pass a fear test on LD6 to charge the zombies or pass on LD6 to recieve a charge from zombies and not have to hit on 6's.

If you need to hit on 6's you are unlikely to be causing any wounds. So those goblins are pretty much locked in place while you only lose 1 zombie from numbers in round 1(2 the next round unless you raise that zombie back to life) and then those goblins are dead as soon as you raise a new unit of zombies up to charge the goblins flank the next turn.

4pt zombies are superior to 3pt goblins because of their special rules. The higher WS and being able to strike before the zombies doesn't mean much when you have to hit on 6's. Or when you can replenish your losses with one dice roll.

FictionalCharacter
10-04-2009, 19:46
20 zombies buys 26 goblins.

Those 26 goblins either have to pass a fear test on LD6 to charge the zombies or pass on LD6 to recieve a charge from zombies and not have to hit on 6's.

If you need to hit on 6's you are unlikely to be causing any wounds. So those goblins are pretty much locked in place while you only lose 1 zombie from numbers in round 1(2 the next round unless you raise that zombie back to life) and then those goblins are dead as soon as you raise a new unit of zombies up to charge the goblins flank the next turn.

4pt zombies are superior to 3pt goblins because of their special rules. The higher WS and being able to strike before the zombies doesn't mean much when you have to hit on 6's. Or when you can replenish your losses with one dice roll.

but even by that argument, you're basically talking about a stalemate in combat until either the second turn or until the vc starts throwing down in the magic phase, which is more a statement on the vc magic phase than on zombies as a unit... which coincidentally goes along with the notion that vc magic is far easier to abuse than the vc special rules penalized by this system. so perhaps penalize armies that can spam cast, but then of course that's a pretty targeted penalty, which would of course put us back on an army by army basis. once again, my point isn't that i don't see any use for a comp scoring system in general, i just personally don't find this one to be any more effective than the standard point costs (when i plug my builds into it). i'm not saying everything's balanced as it stands. still, my magic light army list would probably only score a couple points lower than my normal list (not that my normal list is in the stratosphere) and yet would be far far less competitive.

besides, if i decide i want to do something more constructive with my power dice, even those goblins will start chewing through zombies as combat wears on.

W0lf
10-04-2009, 20:24
Im just ganna chime in and say i love the;

20 zombies vs 26 gobbos..

The zombies lose... BUT, BUT..

when i introduce my 400+ pt lord to heal, raise + flank the zombies win. Therefore zombies = teh broken.


Not to say i dont think VCs should get auto-pinged, they should. Vampires core cost certainly accoutns for their crappy statlines... untill you realise they can be raised back and thus are worth potentially 10-12 pts.

Just think how much saurus + chaos warriors would cost if you could raise D6 with them on a 4+ that all your mages get.

Shimmergloom
10-04-2009, 20:42
You don't need a 400pt lord to raise zombies. Any vc spellcaster can do that.

And if somehow the only thing the 400pt lord could do was raise zombies you might have a point. But a 400pt lord does not cost that much because he can only raise zombies.

You know that, I know that and the zombies know that.

selone
10-04-2009, 23:50
but are you sure the zombies know that ;)? Anyways here lies the problem with comparing unit's in isolation just because x unit may beat Y unit in a 1 on 1 does not always mean X > Y in a battle.

BloodiedSword
11-04-2009, 00:14
Holy crap... my score is 1, for having 2 units of Phoenix Guard.

My army must suck :-/ Time to add some cheddar.

W0lf
11-04-2009, 00:32
You don't need a 400pt lord to raise zombies. Any vc spellcaster can do that.

And if somehow the only thing the 400pt lord could do was raise zombies you might have a point. But a 400pt lord does not cost that much because he can only raise zombies.


Raise zombies - 2 dice

You might not cast and opponent has 2 DD so we call that dispelled.

Raise zombies - 2 dice
Dance - 2 dice

Oh dear thats 6 power dice.

2x 1 dice invoc raise

~ 8 Power dice, looks like a vampire lord to me.

Shimmergloom
11-04-2009, 01:23
lol. yeah it always takes 8 dice to raise zombies and charge them.

Or you can take a 55pt necro and give him the book of arkam.

He has as much chance of getting zombies raised and charged into goblins as you have to need to use up 8 power dice to do it your way.

W0lf
11-04-2009, 09:05
so a necro can heal the initial unit, raise zombies + cast vanhels.

Yeah right... good luck with 3 dice.

ALso hes now a 85 pt necro as he needs to buy 2 spells.

Shimmergloom
12-04-2009, 00:27
The arkham staff casts vanhels. Raise dead is the default spell. Extra spells for necros are only 15pts.

Anyway a necro with the staff has 2 power dice and a bound 3 spell he can use.

That's not very many points and surely much less than the lord and 8 power dice you were claiming it would take to raise a unit and charge with it. And if the vc opponent is wasting dice dispelling those necro spells, then there's obviously more vampires and corpse carts out there to get their spells in.

But you're right. Vc are obviously a weak and underpowered army that should really get a boost for 8th edition.

Anvilbrow
12-04-2009, 05:16
.... 2.

My GT Empire list two years ago had:
1. four characters. Warrior priest x2, General, BSB.
2. three war machines. 2x Great Cannon, Helblaster.

I had to check twice to be sure. I suppose it's appropriate that in my local group I'm known for soft, fluffy lists...

Darkmaw
12-04-2009, 13:37
Awww my Lizardman tournament army comes in at 18-22 points...,:D

(1) 10 Power dice
(2) + 4 points (assuming focused Rumination)
(3) 6 Dispel dice
(4) Yup 2 stegadons
(5) Yup 2 razodons
(8) > 2 characters
(10) 2 EOTGs
(12) Terror causer
(14) > 3 fear causing units/characters.
(15) > 2 war machines.
(16) > 2 skirmishing units.
(17) > 2 units with the poison special rule.
(18) > Units/characters with S6+,
(19) < Less than 3 standards,
(20) No standards other than a battle standard.
(21) No standards included in the army.
(28) More than 1 large target.
(29) No ranked infantry units of at least 15 models and full command.
(30) No ranked infantry units of at least 20 models.

The list:

Slann + BSB + Focused Rumination in a unit of 10 Temple guards with a Champion
Skink Priest + Dispel scroll + Diadem of Power + EOTG
Skink priest + Dispel scroll + EOTG
3 x 10 Skink skirmishers
2 x Stegadon
2 x Razordons
2 x Salamanders

EvC
12-04-2009, 13:55
The arkham staff casts vanhels. Raise dead is the default spell. Extra spells for necros are only 15pts.

Anyway a necro with the staff has 2 power dice and a bound 3 spell he can use.

That's not very many points and surely much less than the lord and 8 power dice you were claiming it would take to raise a unit and charge with it. And if the vc opponent is wasting dice dispelling those necro spells, then there's obviously more vampires and corpse carts out there to get their spells in.

But you're right. Vc are obviously a weak and underpowered army that should really get a boost for 8th edition.

Necromancers get 1 spell for free, then have to buy others. A Necro with Book of Arkhan is still only level 1 and costs 90 points, 105 if you buy him a second spell. A raised unit of Zombies should not be expected to take on any block of infantry, even goblins.

Shimmergloom
12-04-2009, 21:23
The whole crux of this argument was goblins vs zombies. 20 zombies vs 26 goblins. The goblins have to pass animosity and fear to charge. And then fear if they are charged.

Getting goblins to pass animosity and fear and not have to hit on 6's is more difficult than having those goblins locked in combat with zombies where the vc player can then raise a unit of zombies and charge the goblins in the flank.

Wolf claimed you needed 8 power dice and a lord casting to get zombies charging the flank of the unit.

I posted that all you need is a necro with the book of arkham, which is 90pts.

If goblins are charged by a unit of 20 zombies in the front and then a unit of 5+ zombies in the flank, they will be breaking every time.

Which is why a 4pt zombie is superior to a 3pt goblin in every way. The S2, T2 is not a big deal vs a goblin or a maurader or a peasant when they are unbreakable, fear causing and itP, who can have new units raised for flank charges or have their numbers replenished.

I would happily pay 3pts for goblins, even without the fear causing, ItP and unbreakable rules, if I had a default spell that let me heal up new goblins into existing units and a spell that let me create entire new units of goblins.

TeddyC
13-04-2009, 01:46
i got around 5 or 6, without my dwarf list to hand I forget exactly

JonnyTHM
13-04-2009, 01:57
I picked up a 2 with my skaven army... though I cry fowl on picking up a point for having the banner of the swarm and the warbanner.

FictionalCharacter
13-04-2009, 12:15
The whole crux of this argument was goblins vs zombies. 20 zombies vs 26 goblins. The goblins have to pass animosity and fear to charge. And then fear if they are charged.

Getting goblins to pass animosity and fear and not have to hit on 6's is more difficult than having those goblins locked in combat with zombies where the vc player can then raise a unit of zombies and charge the goblins in the flank.

Wolf claimed you needed 8 power dice and a lord casting to get zombies charging the flank of the unit.

I posted that all you need is a necro with the book of arkham, which is 90pts.

If goblins are charged by a unit of 20 zombies in the front and then a unit of 5+ zombies in the flank, they will be breaking every time.

Which is why a 4pt zombie is superior to a 3pt goblin in every way. The S2, T2 is not a big deal vs a goblin or a maurader or a peasant when they are unbreakable, fear causing and itP, who can have new units raised for flank charges or have their numbers replenished.

I would happily pay 3pts for goblins, even without the fear causing, ItP and unbreakable rules, if I had a default spell that let me heal up new goblins into existing units and a spell that let me create entire new units of goblins.

no.

the crux of this argument is that vc's power comes from its magic as opposed to its units, whereas this comp scoring system penalizes the units more than the magic.

Shimmergloom
13-04-2009, 13:15
How does it penalize the units more than the magic?

Magic gets penalized for having more than 7, having more than 10(with +1 for each over 10, with each power stone counting as 2 dice) for having 7 or more dispel dice. For having more than 2 scrolls. And for having more than 1 magic banner.

VC get 3 auto-points. With 14 dice, they'd get another 5-6 points at least. That's double the comp hit from magic than they would get from their characters/units.

FictionalCharacter
13-04-2009, 13:43
How does it penalize the units more than the magic?

Magic gets penalized for having more than 7, having more than 10(with +1 for each over 10, with each power stone counting as 2 dice) for having 7 or more dispel dice. For having more than 2 scrolls. And for having more than 1 magic banner.

VC get 3 auto-points. With 14 dice, they'd get another 5-6 points at least. That's double the comp hit from magic than they would get from their characters/units.

again, off the top of my head, my list would take three points for magic (12 pd, i believe) on top of the three for the fact that i just happened to pick that army. if i make the softest of soft lists because, say, i'm experimenting with fielding what i've just learned are apparently hideously overpowered zombies as core, i'd still take those three points for a list that is miles and miles away from anything else in competitiveness.

and still, once again, notice that your argument became entirely about vc magic. it's always that there's a vc caster, or a bound spell, or some extra power dice there to turn a unit of zombies into an unstoppable force. occasionally you fail the fear test and have to hit on sixes for a turn before you go back to hitting on threes to my fives. what a shame.

yes, there's a chance that i replenish zombies faster than quite a few units can eat through them. yes i may have the book and helm of commandment. yes i can likely raise a new unit to flank charge you. but none of that has anything to do with me having vc units. it's the fact that vc magic is arguably way too easy to spamcast, and the conditional fact that i may decide to devote half my hero slots and all of my magic items to that unit in this hypothetical situation.

and please, no one here has ever said that "vc are obviously a weak and underpowered army," as you put it. you don't have to go that far in building a strawman argument. i'm just saying that it's not the inherent undeadness of the units that makes the army overly strong. the magic is too easy to cast way too much. i'd raise the casting costs on pretty much every necromancy spell. plus i see a huge flaw in being able to raise d6 gg per IoN. that's raising an average of 40 points in s4 t4 killing blow heavy infantry per casting... for the next book i'd make it d3.

EvC
13-04-2009, 14:53
The whole crux of this argument was goblins vs zombies. 20 zombies vs 26 goblins. The goblins have to pass animosity and fear to charge. And then fear if they are charged.

Getting goblins to pass animosity and fear and not have to hit on 6's is more difficult than having those goblins locked in combat with zombies where the vc player can then raise a unit of zombies and charge the goblins in the flank.

Getting goblins to charge Zombies is difficult, yes, but it's beside the point really. Even if the Zombies charge, they're not going to win the combat (hit on 4, wound on 5s so 1 casualty maximum, the Goblins then strike back and even if they don't kill any the combat is a draw and they will then keep on winning).


Wolf claimed you needed 8 power dice and a lord casting to get zombies charging the flank of the unit.

He's basically right. You're the expert on Goblins, but leave us VC experts to tell you what is needed for a good shot at VC sneakiness.


I posted that all you need is a necro with the book of arkham, which is 90pts.

And you were already wrong. Necromancer has 1 dice. Assume that he also gets to use the pool dice, so he raises a unit of Zombies. You have two dispel dice to stop Book of Arkhan going off. Sorted. He'd need at minimum a Necromancer with two power stones, raise dead spell and vanhels danse spell, total 120 points, a VC one-shot wunda, who is using 7 power dice. And if he gets a 120 point Necromancer to try this, then you surely get a scroll caddy to counter him for about the same points. That's why as Wolf says, the VC player would probably burn 8 power dice from his 400 point Lord if he really wanted to get the Zombies into their flank. I would think you'd be quite happy if a VC player used most of his magic power simply to flank a piddly unit of Goblins in an actual game, to be honest.


If goblins are charged by a unit of 20 zombies in the front and then a unit of 5+ zombies in the flank, they will be breaking every time.

And the Zombies don't get to pursue, either.


Which is why a 4pt zombie is superior to a 3pt goblin in every way. The S2, T2 is not a big deal vs a goblin or a maurader or a peasant when they are unbreakable, fear causing and itP, who can have new units raised for flank charges or have their numbers replenished.

Yes, the reason the Zombie is superior is the 400 point Lord and other heroes who are pumping magic into keeping them in the game. It is VC magic and the ability to raise, re-raise and re-cast movement spells which is too powerful, that much is correct.