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Dokushin
02-04-2009, 19:37
Ok, so I'm a little uncertain about when you can target what in CC. This is particularly relevant with the new LM book since there are so many mixed units rolling around.

Let me use a perfect example: Salamanders. These are units consisting of 1-3 Salamanders and 3-12 Skink Handlers. A rule states that as long as there are Salamanders, the Skink Handlers rank up behind them.

So let's take 1 Salamander with 3 Handlers, fighting (say) a Dragon.


H
HH
Ss
ss
Dd
dd

H = handler, S = salamander, D = dragon


Round 1: The dragon attacks. It kills the Salamander.
Now what?
In the same round, can it allocate additional attacks against the handlers if it hasn't rolled them all yet?
Does this make it really important to roll your attacks individually against mixed units?
Does the rule stating the handlers rank up behind the Salamanders matter?

Braad
02-04-2009, 19:48
Well, you allocate all the attacks at the same moment, and at that moment you can't allocate them against skinks, so rolling one by one wouldn't make a difference.

Ruleswise, models only get pushed forward at the end of the combat (tidying up ranks and stuff), so this situation doesn't actually change during the combat anyway. While during the combat against a single-type unit you pick casualties from the rear, this is only for the ease of playing. Actually what happens is that the front models die, and you would push the back ones forward when the phase is over. The result of this compared to immidiately removing them from the back is the same, but in this case the skinks therefore don't actually come in BtB with the dragon during that same phase.

Attacks only strike through to models behind the front line, if they are the same as the ones you just killed. So in this case, you can only kill the salamander, AFAIK.

nosferatu1001
02-04-2009, 21:27
Can you hit the skinks? No - You therefore cannot kill the skinks. They are different to the salamander and therefore not eligible to be attacked as a group. You have to be in base to base with the skinks, i.e. in a flank charge as well.

Necromancy Black
02-04-2009, 22:07
You can only hit what is in base to base. If there are many models of the same type and your in base to base with one of them, extra wounds will carry over.

In you example your only in base to base contact with the Salamander, meaning you can't kill the skinks.

sulla
02-04-2009, 22:08
Can you hit the skinks? No - You therefore cannot kill the skinks. They are different to the salamander and therefore not eligible to be attacked as a group. You have to be in base to base with the skinks, i.e. in a flank charge as well.

Is this the case even if the dragon rider kills the salamander before the dragon attacks?

Necromancy Black
02-04-2009, 22:15
Is this the case even if the dragon rider kills the salamander before the dragon attacks?

Yes, because as they said, you do not fill the front rank until combat is over.

Both dragon and rider are in base to base with onloy the salamander. If one of them kills the Salamander the other isn't going to have anything left to attack.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2009, 09:39
Removing models from the back is a shortcut so that you don't have to keep messing with the unit. If a unit has mixed models like this I would shuffle the unit as necessary at the end of each initiative step.

sulla
04-04-2009, 00:23
Seems a bit dodgy that in a unit with 4 characters and a rank and filer in the front, endless hordes of rank and filers will force their way through to be cut down by simultaneous attacks that kill him but the skinks, by dint of a whole in the laws of the game don't step forward between initiative steps... Oh well, that's the rules I guess. So are they still in the combat if they are not in base to base?

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 00:32
So are they still in the combat if they are not in base to base?

No idea, there's isn't any rules to cover this. Hell, there arn't any rules to cover mixed units of this kind in combat.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-04-2009, 00:52
The skinks would step forward at Redress the Ranks at the very latest. :p

Braad
04-04-2009, 10:35
They remain in combat. The front line stays at the same location, and models from the back step forward to fill these spots when you're done fighting. If you have a unit of 5x5 or something, and they loose 20 models due to some extreme fighting going (like when being in combat with a unit of 7 wide khorne chaos warriors with 2 hand weapons, and only 2 out of 22 attacks don't wound), then the last rank is also not out of combat suddenly, even though there is momentarily no base contact.

It's all a bit difficult though, I've been searching the rules, and its not really that clear-cut about at what moment models step forward to actually replace fallen comrades. But if you put the whole thing of fighting and fighting back together, I think its safest to assume that you step back at the 'redress ranks' moment, which is after the combat is resolved.