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Chaplain Dionitas
02-04-2009, 21:48
Has anyone tried this yet? I read some write-ups on it but I'd rather get some more info.

From what I gathered you're basically in an Inquisitors retinue. Is there any advancement beyond that? I mean in the way of actually becoming an Inquisitor?

sycopat
02-04-2009, 22:16
Not in the game system itself, no, there's no way of becoming an inquisitor, although supposedly a supplement is on it's way which will allow that...

Although it's also not strictly true to say the PC's are an inquisitors retinue, more you play an inquisitors agents: Your inquisitor is someone who gives you tasks (quests) and to whom you report (get rewarded by) beyond that it's really up to the GM how much the inquisitor figures in your games, and it is possible to run a campaign without them, it's just made difficult by the setting of the imperium(Not being the sort of place that encourages it's citizens to up and start adventuring without the correct authorisations...)

personally I play my inquisitors as somewhat distant figures, sitting at the centre of a web the PC's are but one thread of. It gives the PC's more freedom and makes the game slightly more "traditional RPG" in feeling.

Chaplain Dionitas
02-04-2009, 22:20
Ahhh my mistake. You'd think I would've known having just finished the Eisenhorn Trilogy for the 5th time. I have an idea for a story arc and I think I can get some of my friends in on this. Of course as with all things Warhammer, it's not cheap.


Thanks alot for the info.

Heimlich
02-04-2009, 22:31
Isn't their another book aswell? A Chaos version that rewards you with dark gifts for doing the polar opposite tasks? I think that could possibly be fun, less restrictions to humanity/mortality.

Col. Dash
02-04-2009, 22:39
With an imaginative GM you can pretty much do whatever you want. The rules just give you the how to like any other RPG. Source material however assumes and is geared towards you being inq agents. Its a really cool system either way.

weissengel86
02-04-2009, 23:06
Has anyone tried this yet? I read some write-ups on it but I'd rather get some more info.

From what I gathered you're basically in an Inquisitors retinue. Is there any advancement beyond that? I mean in the way of actually becoming an Inquisitor?Currently the system is geared towards an inquisitors retinue.

Sometime this year they are coming out with rogue trader and supplements for advanced characters.

Personally the fluff and source books are worth getting even if you dont play.

The system itself is pretty good. It is also easily tweakable for more experienced GMs.

Bregalad
02-04-2009, 23:32
I tried the game and it works fine. Rulewise similar to the Warhammer RPG with not too many rules, but more emphasise on the style and background. Recommended! Read the novel "Scourge the Heretic" to get an idea of the setting.

And no, playing a group of characters who each can destroy a planet on a whim, is no good idea for balanced play.

Gensuke626
02-04-2009, 23:49
My only gripe with Dark Heresy is that starting level characters are barely capable of doing anything unless the GM creatively uses the modifier systems. When your guardsman character starts with something in the realm of a 40% accuracy with his Lasgun...

Kamenwati
02-04-2009, 23:54
...that'd be about par for course for them! XD

JK, mostly anyway.

Lord Malorne
03-04-2009, 00:04
I know what you mean Gensuke, we have just started a game for the first time and are using the campaign from the back of the book, keeps missing everything is a common thing, though my Noble has high WS so hoping to crack heads.

Have any of you played with an untouchable? My character is one but I have not the foggiest what to expect.

Gensuke626
03-04-2009, 00:12
@kamenwait - 40% +/- Range Penalties, Aiming Bonuses, Cover and a whole host of modifiers in a d100 based system is incredibly frustrating. I know you're joking but I thought I'd enlighten some folks here.

Even worse was when I played, I was a Tech Priest. I did everything to boost my Tech-Use skill since I was the only one in the party who didn't focus on combat. I started with a 68% chance to pass my tech-use checks. Problem I encountered was that most electronic doors were -20% modifier to override the controls and force open. It's like being a rogue in D&D 3.5 and being told that you can't buy Masterwork Thief's tools... and that Pick Lock is a Cross Class skill.

There are ways around the system, but it really requires a GM willing to work with the party.

I also have a problem with weapons in the game. If a Lasgun does d10+3 damage, a Boltgun should not do D10+5 damage. Maybe I'm just too much of an Inquisitor player, but I really thought that Lasguns doing 2d6 damage and Boltguns doing 2d10+4 was about right.

Snotteef
03-04-2009, 00:20
I've played it a great deal. The books are great, but the rules are hokey, one-dimensional, and terribly frustrating. A starting character has almost no chance of accomplishing the tasks for which they are geared. Most characters start out with about a 35% chance of doing the tasks at which they should be most adept (and much lower at most other things). There is also very little room for customization in most classes.

The books are worth buying, just for all the background material and GMing advice, but I run my games using GURPS, because I find the system so ridiculous.

Just playing as an Inquisitor's retinue sounded one-dimensional when I first saw the game, but we've been at it for a year playing 4 different campaigns and haven't shown any signs of boredom. There are a great deal of adventure hooks for this style of game, once you settle into the routine.

Steel Legion for Life
03-04-2009, 00:41
The books are well worth it for the setting notes and background gubbins.

As for the system, run it in what you like. The gaming police won't bust through your door if you run it in GURPS, D&D, whatever.

Personally, I use Houses of the Blooded for it. Tis a little known system, but very good for politically charged games. http://www.housesoftheblooded.com/

The one thing I would say in favour of the % system, it's very good for starter roleplayers, same goes for the random character generation (right down to appearance for goodness sake). The Dark heresy system is right for the people the game is aimed at; people playing their first RPG.

People who are a bit more experienced can and will do their own thing, so there's no need to cater for them really, and any attempt to marry the two will just result in confusion for noobs and sneers from old beardy nerds, who'll keep running it in Spacemaster or Phoenix Command or whatever.

Incidentally, frag grenades would be PIMP on the Spacemaster Shrapnel crit table:)

Rioghan Murchadha
03-04-2009, 00:44
I've played it a great deal. The books are great, but the rules are hokey, one-dimensional, and terribly frustrating. A starting character has almost no chance of accomplishing the tasks for which they are geared. Most characters start out with about a 35% chance of doing the tasks at which they should be most adept (and much lower at most other things). There is also very little room for customization in most classes.

The books are worth buying, just for all the background material and GMing advice, but I run my games using GURPS, because I find the system so ridiculous.

Just playing as an Inquisitor's retinue sounded one-dimensional when I first saw the game, but we've been at it for a year playing 4 different campaigns and haven't shown any signs of boredom. There are a great deal of adventure hooks for this style of game, once you settle into the routine.

This is pretty much true. I also personally dislike much of the randomness generated by the chart systems. GURPS is alright, although I personally use Silhouette due to the amazingly robust mechanical design system that pretty much lets you replicate any piece of equipment / vehicle you can think of. (that and the system integrates seamlessly with multiple scales of tabletop combat, giving you the ability to run your characters in the middle of giant battles, fleet engagements, etc. in addition to normal adventures.)

Lyinar
03-04-2009, 00:55
I'm currently running a Dark Heresy campaign. Due to a medical emergency one of my players had (a "If he'd waited another week to come in, we wouldn't have been able to do anything to save his life"-level emergency... thank the Emperor he lost that particular argument with his wife), we've only done a couple of sessions so far and it's on hold for a bit.

I started them off in training, both to have their characters have a decent level of expertise when they get into their first real mission, and to give all of us a chance to get used to the system. So far they've gone through some ranged and melee combat training sessions, a threat briefing (Exposition 101, essentially), and an intel/counter-intel exercise to get them into the investigation side of things.

We've had pretty good fun so far, and I have some interesting things planned out for them.

Lord Malorne
03-04-2009, 01:00
Any untouchables anyone?

Noserenda
03-04-2009, 02:55
Starting as utter spods is kinda a holdover from the Warhammer (You too can be a Ratcatcher!) but with our party up to our 4th "levels" we are certainly starting to feel more competent! The titles are a dead give-away, when your IG is described as a conscript 40% accuracy definitely sounds better...

Gensuke626
03-04-2009, 03:11
I suppose, but my friends and I all agree that it doesn't help to encourage new players to try out the system.

I'd also like to point out the lasgun vs Boltgun problem that I have...

Snotteef
03-04-2009, 05:00
We had a game with an untouchable before the official rules came out (the GM's house rules were pretty close though) and it worked out o.k. He never really got to use his untouchable ability on an enemy though, it just meant he had to stay well away from the two sanctioned psykers in our party!

For the most part, I don't like them as PC's. They're too powerful against psyker enemies, too frustrating for Psyker PC's in the party and they suffer a great deal for an ability that might only be useful once in a while OR could break a well-thought out encounter. I like to leave 'em as NPCs.

Orca
03-04-2009, 05:38
My only gripe with Dark Heresy is that starting level characters are barely capable of doing anything unless the GM creatively uses the modifier systems. When your guardsman character starts with something in the realm of a 40% accuracy with his Lasgun...

We added 10 to all starting base stats (enemies included) and found that it was deadlier, but we were capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Base characters are supposed to be trusted agents of the inquisition, not escapees from the mechanicims servitor program. We also started out at level 2-3? Via the advanced rules.

As for the bolt gun v. Lasrifle v. anything, I think that some of it is a bit hokey, but I take heart that we A) haven't seen a marine bolter B) get killed with alarming regularity anyway and C) the damage types and weapon special rules make a big difference in how they work.

Hellebore
03-04-2009, 05:45
Don't forget that the base stat is for challenging tasks. If something is easy, you get +30, or it's automatic.

The modifer system isn't there to fudge the rules, it's an integral part of the game. Not using it is fudging the rules.

Inquisitor rules also meant that a lasgun would never kill someone in a single shot, even if naked.


DH can and will kill someone with a single shot from a lasgun, and much more likely with a bolter (which also has Tearing, so you roll 2D10 and pick the highest for damage).

If you want to play was marine captains and inquisitor lords, that comes in Deathwatch out in a year and a bit.

EDIT: Orca, if you look at the agents of the inquisiton diagram in the DH core book you'll see exactly what a starting character is supposed to be and that's a disposable asset to the inquisitor. A 'trusted' agent is a higher level, once they've proven themselves.

There is no point releasing a game at max level, you've got no room for expansion so they started at the lowest level and allowed for the ability to expand upon it. Ascension comes out this year, and it's all about 'trusted agents'.

Hellebore

Griffin
03-04-2009, 09:19
Well said Hellebore.

SylverClaw
03-04-2009, 11:01
The books really are great. The background is excellent and the quality of the material is very high - even better now it's been taken away from Black Library's terrible excuse for editors. Though on the expensive end of the sourcebook scale in my opinion you really get what your paying for.

As for the system; I love it.

Yeah, characters are “underpowered” but that’s not a bad thing. If you are looking for a very flighty game system you’ll be a bit disappointed – it’s less action movie and more spy novel. Combat is tense and uncertain, death always highly possible, and rarely static; moving around and using the environment actually does something noticeable in this system (though, I don’t like the suppression rules as they are – not very tactical).

There is, in my experience, a weight towards melee combat. Guns are fun but, especially at a lower level, fights are won with greater ease when you start throwing fists and blades around. That would probably be a bit of a disappointment if you are trying to run a military game… but it’s not really the right system for that. GURPS works well for military combat.

The only thing it lacks is good vehicle rules. You can download a brief document with a few vehicles and some basic rules on it… but it’s a bit weak.

Gensuke626
03-04-2009, 13:23
I think the excuse that we "Haven't seen a 'Marine Bolter' yet" is a bit weak. I've never heard or read anything that indicates that Marine Bolters are somehow superior to bolters given to Imperial Guard sergeants. Just not buying that excuse in the same way that I think that making a lascannon do 4d10 damage in Inquisitor scale was a bit of a mistake...

I'm not saying that Inquisitor is perfect. I'm saying that guns should be deadlier. I think a soldier in Full Guard flak should stand a chance to survive 1 or 2 shots from a Lasgun. A bolter should turn them into a steaming pile of hamburger.

I'm not trying to play Marine Captains and Inquisitor Lords, Hellebore. So far eveything I've experienced from the game has been underwhelming and frustrating. When my Techpriest with a greataxe can kill ganger juves faster than the Guardsman with the lasgun, there's a problem.

I'm not trying to discourage people from playing this game, I just want to give my heavily biased opinion so that the reader can take away multiple opinions, weigh whose they trust and come to a conclusion on their own.

Noserenda
03-04-2009, 13:54
From personal experience, the bolter does plenty more damage and Explosive Criticals are brutal frankly. Picking up a Red Dot sight early and remembering to Aim my Guardsman is the nastiest combat character in our group bar the priest (And he jammily rolled high on all stats...) and that was prior to getting my shiny new boltgun last session.

That said, Hellebore pretty much covered the bases.

Snotteef
03-04-2009, 14:38
Don't forget that the base stat is for challenging tasks. If something is easy, you get +30, or it's automatic.

The modifer system isn't there to fudge the rules, it's an integral part of the game. Not using it is fudging the rules.

Inquisitor rules also meant that a lasgun would never kill someone in a single shot, even if naked.


DH can and will kill someone with a single shot from a lasgun, and much more likely with a bolter (which also has Tearing, so you roll 2D10 and pick the highest for damage).

If you want to play was marine captains and inquisitor lords, that comes in Deathwatch out in a year and a bit.

EDIT: Orca, if you look at the agents of the inquisiton diagram in the DH core book you'll see exactly what a starting character is supposed to be and that's a disposable asset to the inquisitor. A 'trusted' agent is a higher level, once they've proven themselves.

There is no point releasing a game at max level, you've got no room for expansion so they started at the lowest level and allowed for the ability to expand upon it. Ascension comes out this year, and it's all about 'trusted agents'.

Hellebore

Starting at a low level and being completely naff at your specialty do not have to go hand in hand (unless your system is so inflexible that it is the case). Even just entering the Inquisition, these characters have a history, a life and a career and that life was usually one where a single mistake meant death (guardsman, assassin, arbite, scum). Given that, the character should be "entry level" at most things and quite good at their specialty. That is simply not the case in DH. Let's take a techpriest with high intelligence... we'll say 40 (he probably started with 35 and took the Int, upgrade with his starting points). NOw, this techpriest, with a lifetime of training and some real life experience tries to use his Tech Use skill for an "easy" task. He now has a 70% chance. He is a professional, performing an easy task and he fails 30% of the time? If a machinist or a mechanic failed 30% of the time at their jobs, they'd probably get fired.

Now imagine it's an Arbite, fresh out of school, graduated top of his class and aced every field test. He joins the Inquisition, the inquisitor asks him to search for clues at the crime scene. Well.... arbites aren't trained in searching; they just need to pick it up after years of experience (i.e. starting arbites may NOT have the search skill as standard). Now, this arbite with 40 perception (VERY high by DH standards) has only a 50% chance of finding an "easy" clue (something not very well hidden; and he's actively searching... this is part of his job.... 50%.... arghhhh). FIRED!

I know there are ways around this and a creative GM can make the experience more fun AND more believable, but I hate that it takes so much extra work to do so. A good system wouldn't need the GM to work so hard.

As for weapons: just another symptom of the disease that is the system. Do you know that in DH a plasma gun can only hurt a Space Marine if you roll a 9 or 10 (on a d10) for damage? Yep. And unless you get a 'critical,' it'll only ever do 1 or 2 points of damage: ridiculous.

Now, Hellebore, I think you're great and I tend to agree with you on most things 40k, but here... we're gonna have to differ.

Also, I know that each of my examples can (and will) be refuted in some way, but they are only examples: there are a million other situations in the game that drive me up the wall, but it would take the rest of my life to list them. Anyway, I've solved some of my problems by running it with my homebrew GURPS conversion.... If only the other GM's in my group would use them.;)

Deadmanwade
03-04-2009, 14:58
A lot of the game is down to adventure design and the DM. If the players are meant to find a clue then they'll do it without needing to roll a dice. If its something that MIGHT be useful then they'll have to roll for it.
How much fun would the game be if your guardsman could waste anyone with his eyes closed and standing on his head?
Same thing with the techpriest, you shouldnt need to roll for day to day actions, but even picking the simplest of locks or hacking into the most basic of computer networks is something that you can possibly fail at. Even professionals can make mistakes doing tasks that are outside the mundane.
If your DM is making you roll for everything it will A)slow the game down and B)suck all the fun out of the game.
"ooops, looks like you rolled a 99 for your 'having a shave roll'. You brutally decapitate yourself!"
As for the weapons damage rolls, not every location on your body will kill you if shot at. Whilst some shots will kill you outright, there are plenty more that will graze your arm or just hit flesh and pass straight through. There are lots of cops on the street who owe their lives to kevlar vests stopping bullets when they came under fire.
Combat can be brutal, the rules for fire damage are particularly unpleasant. If you run through several combat encounters you're probably looking at taking some critical damage even from lasgun shots over time.

At the end of the day, no game system be it RPG, wargame or videogame is going to be true to life and perfect. DH is as good a system as any and my group of gamers who run from experienced (first edition D and D) to newbies has no trouble with it. My only quibble would be the economics of the system, which seem somewhat out of proportion for some goods, but thats something the DM can easily change themselves.

Hellebore
03-04-2009, 15:00
Well, you and I will have to disagree at which point said character has had a 'lifetime' of training, because by that point they would have a much higher chance.

Your characters are at the lowest end of what they are when you start with them. That doesn't include a lifetime of anything, let alone mastery of anything.

It is very easy to increase that skill, by increasing the starting XP from 400 to say 2000.

Because then it represents a more experienced character. I myself have problems with some parts of the system and have written my own rules and game systems to replace things in many games including this one.

However I think that people deliberately treat the game in a negative way in order to prove it doesn't work. The characters are not masters of anything when they start because, they AREN'T masters of anything when they start.

GURPS uses the same type of modifier system for its rules (+2, -2, +4 etc) so it's not like DH is alone in that.

The rules are only supposed to be used when the outcome is important, anything else is an automatic success. If searching something isn't a vital part of the mission that has dramatic consequences then after 5 minutes they would find something.

Having GMed WFRP before DH came out and now DH I've found literally none of the problems this system supposedly brings up to people. Easy tasks are +30, tasks that are not a drammatic element to the story are automatically passed regardless of what they are. Fate points allow rerolls, equipment adds bonuses. The rules may not be easy to strike a balance with when you start playing but after a while you develop a sense for when to apply the rules, when they aren't important to the section, and when to apply modifiers.

As I said there are some things I've changed, all plasma and melta weapons do an additional 1D10 damage for example.

However, my main argument is that A) the characters are literal noobs when they start. Intern doctors are famously spoofed on tv as requirng nurses to perform many of their procedures for them (my sister just had an intern fail to fix a intravenous drip 4 times in her arm and she's a skinny thing not hard to find the vein) B) people don't use modifiers enough.

Just look at the starting ages for the different planets. You can start as young as 15 on some. That is hardly a lifetime of anything.

However, some people just don't like starting as the lowest character you can possibly start with. Personally I blame MMOs and D&D for fostering the uber 10,000 hit point warrior of hyperbole. Against something like that anything looks crap.

I'm sorry you've been driven up the wall by the rules. So far I've not lost a single character (despite the deadly setting) and have yet to have any of them fail spectacularly at anything.


Hellebore

Snotteef
03-04-2009, 15:40
Well, I fail spectacularly at everything, but that might be my dice. ;)

By a lifetime of experience, I meant that people in the Imperium tend to live hard, dangerous lives which force them (especially the type that is likely to be chosen for an Inquisitor's retinue) to master certain survival skills early. A 20 year old hive ganger probably knows a great deal more about urban survival, gun use and maintenance, and/or stealth than the rules suggest. Even a young teen who grew up hunting for his food, day-to-day, on a feral world would be an excellent tracker, able to successfully hunt elusive prey or suffer starvation, yet it would be nigh impossible to represent this level of expertise with a starting DH character. I'm not asking for people to be 'masters' at anything: only generally competent. I'm sorry, but hunting prey in the snow with a bow and arrow is, at the very least, a challenging task; so my starting feral worlder will have less than a 50% chance of being successful, despite having done it successfully his entire adult life (let's assume survival IS at stake in this example... I'm well aware that routine tasks don't require rolls).

Obviously we're not going to change each other's minds. I've heard arguments just like yours before and you've heard the ones like mine. Different strokes.

I said I was driven up the wall, not "all my characters die." I don't equate character death with frustration at the core system. I've not lost any characters either.

You are right, however, that people tend to ignore the modifiers. In all my time of playing this game, I can count on my hands the number of times I've been allowed to roll for an "easy" task. Most tasks seem to be challenging or worse with my group. *sigh* Even when it's played correctly, however, I find the system to be far inferior to most 'points buy' game systems. Especially the ones that use a bell-curve system for skill checks.

bc99
03-04-2009, 17:05
I think the excuse that we "Haven't seen a 'Marine Bolter' yet" is a bit weak. I've never heard or read anything that indicates that Marine Bolters are somehow superior to bolters given to Imperial Guard sergeants.

I believe the Dark Heresy rules say just that. Marine Bolters are superior to those available to non-Marines, as in a normal human is unable to handle the power/size, etc of a Marine bolter. I know that the Marine character in Purge the Unclean has an "Astartes Bolt Pistol", which has superior stats compared to a regular bolt pistol.

In a tabletop game it's much harder to represent the possible differences between bolters. In an RPG, with wider variations on weapon stats you can easily model the differences.

camulus316
03-04-2009, 17:27
I think the excuse that we "Haven't seen a 'Marine Bolter' yet" is a bit weak.

In the campaign book Purge the Unclean, you get to run around with a Space Marine. His bolter was 2d10. I don't have the book in fornt of me, but I believe everything else was the same as the 'normal bolter' but a Marine's bolter is bigger and meaner so does 2d10. I think the AP maybe a tick higher too, which would make it more effective also, but am not 100% sure on that.

Yarick Zan
03-04-2009, 17:48
Well I am running a Dark Heresy campaign with some friends of mine online. We are using Ventrilo for when we are actually playing (we are all there anyways due to another reason) and we are using gametable for a dice rolling and map client. It's on hold right now because we got ourselves into a Shadowrun campaign due to unforseen reasons.

One of the first things I said to myself when deciding what I was going to do as GM is I decided everyone needed a higher starting expirence. Everyone starts at 400, but I bumped them up to 800 total. This made them feel both like they were a bit more powerful, and they stood apart from the other character classes. This seemed to go down real well.

Haevetainn
03-04-2009, 18:03
In the campaign book Purge the Unclean, you get to run around with a Space Marine. His bolter was 2d10. I don't have the book in fornt of me, but I believe everything else was the same as the 'normal bolter' but a Marine's bolter is bigger and meaner so does 2d10. I think the AP maybe a tick higher too, which would make it more effective also, but am not 100% sure on that.

I have not seen any system, rpg or otherwise, take into account that an Astartes bolter is much more heavily armoured than a regular one. Even the magazines are armoured! This stems from the fact that wearing power armour is useless when your gun simply explodes in your hand all the time... This of course makes them much heavier than regular ones used by guard and wealthy individuals. This added weight and durable construction makes it possible to use more heavy duty ammo, or something... Reducing recoil and wear'an'tear from firing.

Not a gun expert, but this is my take on it...

Cultist of Sooty
03-04-2009, 19:44
A lot of the game is down to adventure design and the DM. If the players are meant to find a clue then they'll do it without needing to roll a dice. If its something that MIGHT be useful then they'll have to roll for it.
A useful trick I've used in various RPGs is to assume that, if succeeding at something is crucial to the plot - finding the clue that is needed or what-have-you - then the PCs will find the clue.

However, what the roll decides is whether or not there are any complications. Suppose the PCs are trying to find something in a library. Instead of success and failure on the roll being about whether or not they get the information, what you could decide is that:

1. A very good roll (with a few degrees of success*) means they find the information quickly and have more time to plan for what happens next.

2. Barely making the roll means that they get the information just in time.

3. Barely missing the roll means they get it, but it's almost too late for what happens next, so they have to rush and get their unprepared.

4. A really disastrous roll might be a major mishap. They get the information but are accused of stealing books, or one of them knocks over some candles and sets the library on fire.


It might not be strictly according to the rules as written, but it stops a scenario from hitting dead ends if the PCs keep failing rolls to find clues.

* Sorry, it's been a while since I've read Dark Heresy and can't remember if this is the exact term.



As for the general competence of PCs, the default level for starting PCs in Dark Heresy does seem a bit on the inexperienced side. I'd probably start them off with a few more experience points. But I'd still have them create "starting character" versions of the PCs so that we could do a flashback scenario to when they were raw and inexperienced.

yabbadabba
03-04-2009, 20:00
I have to agree with Orca. When I played some of DH we took a lot of the start as being lowest of the low - weapons were crap, we were crap and, consequently, or nemesis were crap. As we got better (only a little before it all stopped) so did everything else. Being a conscript is fine when all you have to do is hunt down a housewife who is being unwittingly used as a mule for psych-drugs and one of them has opened up inside her (in the end it was all tentacles - it always comes down to tentacles).

I think if you are experienced at RPG's there will always be a system more suited to the way you like to play. It is, as said, a persons first RPG.

Makiaveli
03-04-2009, 21:16
By a lifetime of experience, I meant that people in the Imperium tend to live hard, dangerous lives which force them (especially the type that is likely to be chosen for an Inquisitor's retinue) to master certain survival skills early. A 20 year old hive ganger probably knows a great deal more about urban survival, gun use and maintenance, and/or stealth than the rules suggest.



I just want to say that not everyone would have had a combat filled life. The hive ganger might not know squat about gun maintenance, and his weapon training might have been point and pull the trigger with a gun he bought/stole last week. Experience is a great teacher, but at the same time without someone to show you the ropes you have to re-invent the wheel.

Also, the characters were not always chosen because they were awesome at their jobs, maybe they were in the right place at the right time. Maybe Sarge threw the grenade that took out the killa kan, but Private Smithus was the sole survivor so they made him the hero for morale purposes and then next thing he knows he is on a ship with some other people being told how he will next get to serve the Emperor since he is such an exemplary example of how badass the IG can be.

Also, take the techpriest with a 70% chance to open a door. Any GM worthy of the name would let him open the door with no roll unless there is a reason to make him roll. Like say combat, or the need for speed etc. My point here is that if they are 200K away from the nearest city and/or threat, then he will get the door open eventually and let's just move the story along. Now if a group of cultists is heading this way down the drain pipe, and if that door isn't open in the next 22 seconds we are all dead, then I think maybe he is under a bit of stress and might not perform perfectly all the correct rites and thus needs to make a roll to see if he can get it open.

Now this isn't to say that you can't and shouldn't mess with their heads a bit. Make them roll just to set the mood or some such. And I've never been a fan of the players knowing all the modifiers. IE it looks like a Cyberdyne systems Model 22-A security system, which would normally be relatively easy with a -10% modifier. So roll the dice and tell me what you get. Then I tell you whether you succeeded or not. Whose to say the software hasn't been modified in a way that isn't obvious and thus the door has a -40% modifier unless you snoop around a bit and find the programming error that make it a +5% hmmm?


Ok either I made my point, or I am blathering on and nobody cares...either way I am out....

Geddonight
03-04-2009, 22:18
Though on the expensive end of the sourcebook scale in my opinion you really get what your paying for.

Actually, when I compare it to something like D&D, I find it much cheaper; really, It's the PHB, DMG, even a scenario book all in one (easily a $100 value from WotC)


I'm sorry, but hunting prey in the snow with a bow and arrow is, at the very least, a challenging task; so my starting feral worlder will have less than a 50% chance of being successful, despite having done it successfully his entire adult life (let's assume survival IS at stake in this example... I'm well aware that routine tasks don't require rolls).

I take a bit of umbrage with this example. Stalking and killing large game using archery is incredibly difficult, especially solo, and even more so if you take technology out of the equation. I guess the question is, what counts as a check? Is it an hourly test? Daily? Weekly? The odds of a successful hunt increase with time, but the chance of anyone going out for an hour and killing something is pretty remote.

Put it in perspective--the big cats of the savannah have perhaps a 30% success rate for hunts, yet they still survive. Feral humans would probably have a greater success rate due to tools and tactics, but still.. not that grand. It's why anthropologists figure we went to farming, as it was a better certainty.


As for other accuracy: I can't speak to combat situations, as I've never been in the line of fire, but I imagine there's incredible pressures which make accuracy much harder to attain (bullets flying, taking cover, poor shooting form from all that, quick snapshots, etc.). I can do pretty decently with an iron sight high-calibre rifle on the range at 100+ yards, even better with a scope... but I would call that an easy if not automatic event.


Course, I haven't actually played the game yet--not enough folk interested around here. so *shrug*

Kaihlik
04-04-2009, 00:19
I know what you mean Gensuke, we have just started a game for the first time and are using the campaign from the back of the book, keeps missing everything is a common thing, though my Noble has high WS so hoping to crack heads.

Have any of you played with an untouchable? My character is one but I have not the foggiest what to expect.That will be interesting, the scenario at the back of the book is actually really nasty (I know I've played and GMed it). Dont worry none of this is spoilers.

Aristarches should be freaking out around you constantly if you are an untouchable, psykers and blanks dont really mix all that well. I havn't actually had a player go an untouchable as it is really meant to be a rare trait (maybe 1 or 2 per planet). The upside is that you are totally immune to psykic powers but the downside is that you will probably alert any psyker in the area to the presence of your group and even Imperial psykers should be unwilling to deal with you in any way. You may also become a target of other Inquisitors who would want to use your character as an expendible asset or simply rivals to your inquisitor who want to deny him such a valuable resource.

@ Gensuke626 - The Inquisitors handbook has a section about how marine bolters are much bigger and more powerful than normal bolters. The Angelus Bolt carbine uses (illegal) Astartes Bolt shells and so does 2D10 explosive damage and as its a bolt weapon it has the tearing quality.

DarkMatter2
04-04-2009, 00:55
As an avid RPGer, I can say I like Dark Heresy. I have both played and GM'd the game.

The lower level of characters in general doesn't bother me - I love RPGs more tuned towards presenting "normal humans". Call of Cthulhu is my favorite RPG in general, and my favorite combat system is Friday Night Firefight from Cyberpunk 2020, which is usually a 1 hit 1 kill system regardless of whether you are PCs or NPCs.

The one problem I felt I have had so far is that the 40k setting doesn't provide a lot of storytelling inspiration for a GM like me.

Deus Mechanicus
04-04-2009, 01:01
Yes im in a weekly gaming group of dark heresy. Playing a neonate Sanctioned Psyker with a bolt pistol (that he has no training in and no ammo) and a power fist (that he also has no training in or power source) but he looks good doing it.

Also i can only speak for the psyker class but the psychic powers are really really useless. I have 4 psychic powers that doesn't do much

Lyinar
04-04-2009, 01:48
As an example of what my players are facing in the game, from me, anyway, I'll give the processes they went through for the little intel/counter-intel exercise I gave their characters.

After giving them a rundown on the basics of intel gathering, I had them search for a hidden lounge in the Ordo Hereticus tower of the Tricorn that was created back when Lord Inquisitor Caidan was just an Acolyte by a group of Acolytes of an Inquisitor who tended to favour the more covert "investigate them without them knowing you're there, and then slaughter them in a surgical raid" style that the PCs' own Inquisitor favours. When the Inquisitor of those Acolytes of a few centuries ago found out (when her Interrogator told her what they were doing), she had the idea of putting out an open invitation to try and find it. The rules of this little game were simple: at least three groups need to search for it at once. The first ones to find the lounge get a round of drinks from the last ones. And if any team finds out the location from any of the other teams, the one that lost the intel buys them a round of drinks.

Fairly simple rules, minor punishment for taking too long, minor punishment for not keeping up with the counter-intel side of things, and minor bonuses for doing particularly well.

I had them start looking for clues (some of which were from the original game, and some were the inevitable results of there being a lounge, such as the Administratum's influence in the obsessively-kept records of the day-to-day business of the Tricorn itself), and after they rolled reasonably well on their first checks, I gave them some clues that led them on a few different paths to finding it.

When they rolled badly, I allowed re-rolls, or skipped the re-rolls altogether and they succeeded a bit slower instead (like Cultist of Sooty mentioned). Their performance, and a few rolls I made for the other two teams that were participating at the time, determined, overall, who found it in what order. The PCs did quite well and came in first, but almost gave themselves away as they were searching for the final piece of intel to lead them to the lounge itself. They were saved by a distraction from the party's assassin making use of the fact that she's very personable and quite attractive (the modifiers I gave on the opposed roll-off were somewhat weighted in her favour, but then again, when a Nobleman who has enough appreciation for guns to own a gun that's worth enough to feed a mid-hive family for half a year meets a girl from Gunmetal City who's comfortably far down the line of succession for House Belasco, of Belasco Deathworks infamy, it's to be expected).

Then, it moved into pure counter-intel. The PCs decided to keep searching after they'd found the room and been logged as being the first team there, found some interesting things out about the tower, and got to know the other teams while successfully misdirecting them.

Of course, as anyone who's played in any of the RPG campaigns I've run can tell you, I tend to focus on people actually having fun instead of the bizarre notion that the GM should constantly be trying to murder the PCs and frustrate their players (the D&D group I was in a few years ago had quite a few refugees from one of those type DMs who told some horror stories). To me, casualties are inevitable (especially in a system and setting like Dark Heresy), but TPK in a normal game session is a BAD thing. It means that I've screwed up as a Game Master and thrown them into a situation that they shouldn't have been in. Now, if it's an epic, end-of-the-world type scenario and the PCs die heroic deaths, that's different.

Orca
04-04-2009, 02:04
Don't forget that the base stat is for challenging tasks. If something is easy, you get +30, or it's automatic.

The modifer system isn't there to fudge the rules, it's an integral part of the game. Not using it is fudging the rules.

Inquisitor rules also meant that a lasgun would never kill someone in a single shot, even if naked.


DH can and will kill someone with a single shot from a lasgun, and much more likely with a bolter (which also has Tearing, so you roll 2D10 and pick the highest for damage).

If you want to play was marine captains and inquisitor lords, that comes in Deathwatch out in a year and a bit.

EDIT: Orca, if you look at the agents of the inquisiton diagram in the DH core book you'll see exactly what a starting character is supposed to be and that's a disposable asset to the inquisitor. A 'trusted' agent is a higher level, once they've proven themselves.

There is no point releasing a game at max level, you've got no room for expansion so they started at the lowest level and allowed for the ability to expand upon it. Ascension comes out this year, and it's all about 'trusted agents'.

Hellebore

Fair enough, I suppose I should have selected my words better. Trusted to not die via slipping and falling down a well. Not trusted with the secrets of the imperium.

Our GM for Dark Heresy's a good guy, and did some pre-game research on likely %'s for adequacy. He likes people to succeed in his games around 60-65% of the time, less and the players get annoyed, more and it's Mary Sue on the table top. The purpose of the quickstart options was to make it feel like there's a reason that we'd have been picked over general imperial citizen X to act on the inquisitor's behalf. If you can have anyone on the planet work for you, why would you ever choose a guy who can't see the broad side of a grox, much less hit it?

Lord of ???
04-04-2009, 02:06
A lot of people seem to be forgetting turn time here.

Combat is 6 seconds per action if I remember correctly. And non-combat action are 1 minute.


So yes I would kind of expect even a professional trained highly for years to have trouble cracking a military grade encrypted door lock in one minute. Or a trained detective to pick up immediately on an obscure clue upon merely entering the room.

Hellebore
04-04-2009, 02:11
A certain backwater woodcutter would probably just use his pappy's axe....


Hellebore

Hymirl
04-04-2009, 02:13
I also have a problem with weapons in the game. If a Lasgun does d10+3 damage, a Boltgun should not do D10+5 damage. Maybe I'm just too much of an Inquisitor player, but I really thought that Lasguns doing 2d6 damage and Boltguns doing 2d10+4 was about right.

Yeah, but you're ignoring that bolt weapons get tasty armour penetration which means that much more of the bolt damage will hurt the guy you hit. Its really well ballanced in that regard, flak armour is decent stuff as long as people aren't throwing bolt shells around... and at 13 thrones a pop not many people do.

I really enjoy being a noob of the inquisition actually. Everything is need to know only and everything else is classified. Besides you can try to solve some problems with talking to people instead of spraying bullets everywhere.

Critias
04-04-2009, 03:35
I'd just like to add that their GM/Storyteller Screen is probably the single best example of that sort of product I've ever encountered, in my almost twenty years of playing RPGs. It's sturdy, high quality, comes with a few extras, has attractive artwork on the player's side, and the inside is actually full of useful stuff for once.

It seriously blows any other GM screen I've seen, for any game, out of the water. The thing's great.

Doppleskanger
04-04-2009, 04:03
If a machinist or a mechanic failed 30% of the time at their jobs, they'd probably get fired.

enjoying this discussion and nothing usefull to add as I haven't played this game but...

I worked for 5 months doing wire harnesses and soldering at Saunders in Hinkley and we had a returns rate around 50%
Go Midlands engineering!

borithan
04-04-2009, 09:06
My only gripe with Dark Heresy is that starting level characters are barely capable of doing anything unless the GM creatively uses the modifier systems. When your guardsman character starts with something in the realm of a 40% accuracy with his Lasgun...Shots are less abstracted than in 40k. While in 40k a guardsman has a 50% chance of "hitting" to create any effect, this is largely due to the fact that that one dice roll represents at least several seconds of firing, rather than one shot. In Dark Heresy one dice roll (normally, we will put semi-automatic and fully automatic settings to one side) represents one shot. Most shots SHOULD miss if not aimed very very carefully, even from experienced soldiers. So, your chance of hitting is low. The idea is either you take a while to kill people, or you try to stack up your combat bonuses so that you can more easily hit (taking time to aim, or sending multiple shots down range at them, reducing the amount of cover available to them etc), while making it harder for the enemy to hit to (making sure you remain properly behind cover etc).



I also have a problem with weapons in the game. If a Lasgun does d10+3 damage, a Boltgun should not do D10+5 damage. Maybe I'm just too much of an Inquisitor player, but I really thought that Lasguns doing 2d6 damage and Boltguns doing 2d10+4 was about right.Different system means a different way of doing damage. With the Bolters penetration, and higher strength (even if seemingly not that higher) it is more likely to do damage. The explosive weapon critical chart is also slightly more deadly than the energy weapon one.



Base characters are supposed to be trusted agents of the inquisition,Not really. Starting characters are meant to be new agents, who the Inquisitor has picked for God knows what reason (they liked the look of them, they had some impression of some special destiny, they took a particular dislike and wanted to put them in harms way etc), but who are basically disposable. True, many of the published adventures seem to put too important missions for those in such a position, but thats a adventure writing problem.



Guns are fun but, especially at a lower level, fights are won with greater ease when you start throwing fists and blades around. That would probably be a bit of a disappointment if you are trying to run a military game… but it’s not really the right system for that.Well, it is 40k...



I think the excuse that we "Haven't seen a 'Marine Bolter' yet" is a bit weak.In one of the supplements we get to see a Marine bolt pistol... which causes the same damage as a heavy bolter.



I've never heard or read anything that indicates that Marine Bolters are somehow superior to bolters given to Imperial Guard sergeants.It is mentioned in the Dark Heresy book, and I have seen it mentioned elsewhere. Now, in Dark Heresy it specifically states that Space Marine bolt rounds are bigger (and the standard bolt rounds are .75), whether in length or in diameter I don't know. Now Personally I don't like this, I think a bolt should be a bolt, but I like to think that Space Marine Bolters have features others do not, like burst and fully automatic settings (normal bolters being semi-automatic in several sources, including dark heresy).



Starting at a low level and being completely naff at your specialty do not have to go hand in hand (unless your system is so inflexible that it is the case).Even skilled people would have a good chance of failure on a challanging task (which, as already mentioned, is what rolling against the base skill level represents).


He now has a 70% chance. He is a professional, performing an easy task and he fails 30% of the time?If the task is so easy that the chances of failure are slim (and the consequences of failure negligible) then you simply don't roll. You only roll when chances of failure are high enough to matter, and the consequences matter. If he was picking a really easy electronic lock, had all the time in the world, and messing it up slightly ain't going to do something like set alarms off, set off a trap or whatever, then you simply don't roll. Let them succeed automatically.



As for weapons: just another symptom of the disease that is the system. Do you know that in DH a plasma gun can only hurt a Space Marine if you roll a 9 or 10 (on a d10) for damage? Yep. And unless you get a 'critical,' it'll only ever do 1 or 2 points of damage: ridiculous.Personally I feel they made the Space Marine too tough. they didn't need to make him so much better to make him "real 'ard", and they took it a step to far. Thats a failure in writing that character, not in the system.



A 20 year old hive ganger probably knows a great deal more about urban survival, gun use and maintenance, and/or stealth than the rules suggest.In the skills they have player characters are meant to be a much better than those without.



I'm sorry, but hunting prey in the snow with a bow and arrow is, at the very least, a challenging task; so my starting feral worlder will have less than a 50% chance of being successful, despite having done it successfully his entire adult life (let's assume survival IS at stake in this example... I'm well aware that routine tasks don't require rolls).Surviving on a planet similar to the one they learned their experiences from is probably not challenging. Yes, it would be to an everyday person, but an experienced outdoorsman or whatever? No. Easy as pie. The individual attempts to stalk some prey and then to kill it are always going to be hard, but presuming you do an "outdoor survival" roll or whatever to represent it, and it is going to be fairly easy.



Also i can only speak for the psyker class but the psychic powers are really really useless. I have 4 psychic powers that doesn't do muchI have heard others say they are stupidly overpowered compared to other characters... ok, maybe not overpowered for a psyker, but they leave other classes well behind. I am presuming this is like the D&D thing I have heard about wizards. Where early ones were really weak, but then they increasingly left many other classes behind as they improved.

IJW
04-04-2009, 09:59
Even worse was when I played, I was a Tech Priest. I did everything to boost my Tech-Use skill since I was the only one in the party who didn't focus on combat. I started with a 68% chance to pass my tech-use checks. Problem I encountered was that most electronic doors were -20% modifier to override the controls and force open.
[...]There are ways around the system, but it really requires a GM willing to work with the party.


A starting character has almost no chance of accomplishing the tasks for which they are geared. Most characters start out with about a 35% chance of doing the tasks at which they should be most adept (and much lower at most other things).


Starting as utter spods is kinda a holdover from the Warhammer (You too can be a Ratcatcher!)
That was exactly my thought when reading through the thread - if Dark Heresy is anything like 1st ed. WFRP, then starting characters are starting characters, and your basic chance of doing anything only ever occurs in combat under stress - everything else will have either positive modifiers, be automatic, or your roll is just for working out how long the task takes.

There were a lot of very similar complaints about WFRP when it came out, because it was a lot more gritty and dangerous/realistic than most other fantasy RP systems of the time, plus both players and GMs were too used to the 'roll for anything and everything' mentality. Once people read the books again and realised that a lot of the time you wouldn't even be rolling, and GMs re-jigged the level of threat in their scenarios, it became one of the best fantasy systems around.

Sounds like the same applies to Dark Heresy.

P.S. 40% chance to hit in combat when shooting is (as odd as it might seem), unrealistically high - the vast majority of bullets fired in firefights don't hit anyone. Most studies of warfare put 'bullets that hit compared to bullets that were fired' somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 1000.

Gensuke626
04-04-2009, 11:50
Well...Last post I'm going to place here. When I said that I've never heard of a Marine Bolter being different I meant that I've never heard of it outside of Dark Heresy. Every 40k and 40k based product that I've ever encountered before Dark Heresy has never once indicated that Space Marine boltguns are superior to anyone else's boltgun. They were all just Boltguns. That being said I think it's weak for the creators of Dark Heresy to create the distinction arbitrarily. I was not privy to any play testing for DH, but the sudden inclusion of "Marine Boltgun" vs "Boltgun" feels like an unnecessarily and arbitrary thing to add.

That's just my feelings and I'm glad that many of you feel like the distinction given given between Lasguns and Boltguns is sufficient to represent what I feel is a massive gap between weapons. Good Luck Brave Agents of the Inquisition. I've seen the rules you run under, you're going to need it.

Oguleth
04-04-2009, 12:29
Have been GMing it for hm, 7-8 sessions now.

I like the system a lot, as it just doesn't drop almost instant success into the player's laps when it comes to actual rolling. To hit more in combat, putting on Red Dot upgrades, aiming, and get fancier ammo all helps, not just take the bog standard weapon and just shoot randomly around you. And I generally find the system have more character than say GURPS, even though GURPS is a pretty solid system.

When it comes to how powerful characters are, they do start like new blood with bad career prospects, but after a while they do seem to get pretty insane. Especially the psyker, that started with pretty situational powers, when the no holds barred button is turned on, she can pretty much wreak havoc on just about everything. But it comes with a cost most of the time, however...

But I can understand that people don't like it much either, it's not a very generic system like for example D&D and GURPS, so it places limitations and such, making everyone who didn't want what it delivers turn dissapointed. So hoping the later games (Rogue Trader and Deathwatch) give everyone else what they wanted..

Sister_Sin
04-04-2009, 12:52
I personally love Dark Heresy; for me starting out as dirt standard nothing is just a challenge, and it is a refreshing change from D&D, GURPS and so on. I think the system rocks; one of the better ones I've seen though it does have its problems. It isn't an intuitive system, doesn't hand everything to the players, which I like. I've been roleplaying since before D&D in one fashion or another so I'm no stranger to these sorts of games.

Very subjective of course; I've met folk who hate it on first glance, and others who will hear no wrong about it. It's a good game in my opinion. I look forward to Rogue Trader I must say.

Sister Sin

yabbadabba
04-04-2009, 12:55
@ Gensuke - the idea of Marine boltguns being superior to other boltguns was first brought up in Necromunda. While, because of the mechanics, the basics remained the same, the ammo roll was different and the fluff often backed up that even sanctioned, hive built Bolters were subject to misfires, poor quality rounds, jamming etc. Even 40K says that Marine bolters are superior to Sisters ones, although that was a couple of editions ago.
In additon there is nothing in any RPG I have seen that says you have to do exactly what the rpg says - by their very nature adaptation of the rules is at the core of rpgs. If you think the boltgun should be better, make it so.

Lyinar
04-04-2009, 14:46
The reason why "a bolter is a bolter" in base 40k is because there isn't enough room for variation within the S/AP rules. S4AP5 covers what, in Dark Heresy, is a fair range of damage.

Lasgun: slightly less damage, no penetration, no special rules for damage.
non-Astartes Bolter: More damage, a not-insignificant amount of penetration, and you roll two dice and pick the highest thanks to the Tearing rule.
Astartes Bolter: EVEN MORE damage (emphasis mine), penetration, and it's still got Tearing.

There is a LOT of information in the background, especially in the novels, stating outright that normal folk can barely lift Marine-pattern bolters, let alone fire them effectively, or carry enough ammunition to be useful in a firefight.

Thus, smaller-calibre bolters get used for people who don't have the luxury of wearing power armour. The weapons are lighter, do somewhat less damage, allow someone whose strength isn't boosted to hell and back to carry enough ammunition, and are still quite a bit more powerful than an autogun or lasgun.

precinctomega
04-04-2009, 17:47
I'm also loving DH. I've only GM'd it so far, and found it an excellent way to introduce a group of players all of whom were new to RPGs and, although they'd all been playing 40k for ages, were pretty much novices to anything outside the background of their particular armies. Hopefully, one of my players is going to take over GMing the next adventure and I can dust off my Adept character for some gameplay.

R.

Badger[Fr]
04-04-2009, 20:20
As usual, people keep complaing about the "unfairness" of the rules, yet barely read them. Yes, Bolter have the Tearing rule (read the FAQ!). Yes, you can easily stack several to-hit modifiers (BS 40 + Aim (+20) + 50-meter range (+10) + Red-Dot Laser Sight (+10) + Semi-auto Burst (+10) = 90% accuracy). No, you don't have to roll for every action you undertake. Yes, you can use Fate points and they replenish at the beginning of each game session.

Dark Heresy is not a wargame but a RPG. The rules aren't the point of the whole game, just mere guidelines.

Oberst Viktor Morte
05-04-2009, 00:00
The books are well worth it for the setting notes and background gubbins.

As for the system, run it in what you like. The gaming police won't bust through your door if you run it in GURPS, D&D, whatever.

Personally, I use Houses of the Blooded for it. Tis a little known system, but very good for politically charged games. http://www.housesoftheblooded.com/When the author game to a local event, Stellarcon, some of my friends and I had a chance to play this, and I would recommend it to anyone. Our DM even bought the book at implimented the style points system, as well as players ability to create the world around them. However, we've mostly limited that to just new NPCs and whatnot. The style points system is working great so far though, and it really adds character to any roleplay.



;3437910']As usual, people keep complaing about the "unfairness" of the rules, yet barely read them. Yes, Bolter have the Tearing rule (read the FAQ!). Yes, you can easily stack several to-hit modifiers (BS 40 + Aim (+20) + 50-meter range (+10) + Red-Dot Laser Sight (+10) + Semi-auto Burst (+10) = 90% accuracy). No, you don't have to roll for every action you undertake. Yes, you can use Fate points and they replenish at the beginning of each game session.

Dark Heresy is not a wargame but a RPG. The rules aren't the point of the whole game, just mere guidelines.That's how my Elysian is.

BS~50
Aim (half action) +10
Close range +10
Red dot sight +10
Called shot (head) -20

So typically he has a 60% chance to blow someone's head off every round. An 80% chance if he's just trying to hit them, and 90% if he's firing semi-auto. Sadly, he's only fired his gun once. =(

I would like to note though that a couple soldiers (or ex-soldiers) who I've talked to that play 40K say that they wish that they could hit their targets in a firefight with 50% accuracy.

Dyrnwyn
05-04-2009, 03:52
I played in the same group as Gensuke. I like the difficulty curve in combat. In combat, the ability to aim, close distance to get in range, fire in burst or full-auto, to take cover, equipment you can buy to help(accurate weapons, scopes, laser sights); in combat, there are LOTS of options you can take to increase your odds. I had an assassin who was regularly at a 105% to hit, 85% on called shots. But there's not alot you can do outside of combat other than appeal to the GM or buy a single piece of equipment. If you run into a GM who's hardnosed about the rules, this leads to situations like one Gensuke and I experienced where our characters were sitting in the midlevels of the hive trying to fix our busted ground car. For hours. Trying to roll a <15 for the basic Tech Use skill.

I'm not saying it's a bad game, on the contrary, I like it alot and enjoyed it a great deal when I played it. I just think that the skills system should be more robust, with a number of different modifiers beyond a single piece of equipment for each skill and the GM's personal opinion of how hard something is.

Starchild
05-04-2009, 04:25
Isn't their another book aswell? A Chaos version that rewards you with dark gifts for doing the polar opposite tasks? I think that could possibly be fun, less restrictions to humanity/mortality.

Why yes, it's called Realm of Chaos, released as two separate books back in the late 80's. Since Dark Heresy is firmly based in the WFRP system, it would not require much work to run a Chaos renegade campaign, using Realm of Chaos as sourcebooks.

Although, I wouldn't recommend doing this, for the sake of sanity and general goodwill. The Realm of Chaos books are *extremely* creepy! :(

yabbadabba
05-04-2009, 08:56
If you run into a GM who's hardnosed about the rules, this leads to situations like one Gensuke and I experienced where our characters were sitting in the midlevels of the hive trying to fix our busted ground car. For hours.

I think there is a part of the problem for you.

gaiaterra
05-04-2009, 09:52
I am another one of the pro DH roleplayers, the system is simple enough and can be modified to suit your needs.

I have came across on or two problems though during a game that is being played over rpol, combat is fatal, if something goes wrong you are going to hurt (although given the setting that is certainly what shoud be happening), my character has almost died twice and has lost an eye (thankfully the Inquisition has a very good healthplan), however close combats sucks (see below).

My other big problem is with non-specialist all rounder characters, if you choose to be one of these, expect to be useless, most teams are put together of specialists to fulfil specific roles, an all rounder will basically sit at the side and watch as the better qualified people do stuff.

These are hard lessons I have learned from playing a Commissar in our rpol game, we created the career using the Cleric as a base (the path used is the Bishop one) with some of the skills an knowlages swapped and replaced. There is nothing I can do that at least one or two other members can do so much better, I have come to the conclusion that my party roles are to be a 12 wounds TB 4 wound soak and the one every on else hates.

At the moment I am the best maybe second best close combat character in the party (we have a new Pilot who likes swords, and we have yet to see him fight) due to the fact I got a high starting WS and was able to afford a Best Quality Mono-Sword, however being good in CC in DH is not a good thing, at best at the top level you will throw out 3 attacks per round (2 in the case of my Cleric/Commissar), a low level ganger with a rifle can fire 6 shots a round every round before you even get to close enough to swing a sword.

However when you play the game dont avoid certain careers because they are not as good as others, the point of the roleplay game is to play a character, if you want to play a cleric play one and have fun with him, as much as my Commissar sucks from a game point of view, I have a great time playing him.

Cultist of Sooty
05-04-2009, 10:23
I would like to note though that a couple soldiers (or ex-soldiers) who I've talked to that play 40K say that they wish that they could hit their targets in a firefight with 50% accuracy.
Most people I've talked to don't think that low chances of success are a problem when you're trying to hit someone in a fight because you'll usually get another chance on your next turn (if someone doesn't do unto you first). It's more likely to be a problem when you're doing something out of combat because, a lot of GMs make a single roll the thing that determines success and failure. Having only a 50% chance of succeeding is not great when you only get one roll to find the crucial clue or what-have-you.

Obviously, it's not just in Dark Heresy that this sort of thing crops up. It's a perennial problem in investigative games. That's why I started doing what I mentioned earlier with information that I really want the PCs to have, which is make the roll more about complications than about pure success vs. failure.


Since Dark Heresy is firmly based in the WFRP system, it would not require much work to run a Chaos renegade campaign, using Realm of Chaos as sourcebooks.
Personally, I'd love to use it to run a Gorkamorka! game.

borithan
05-04-2009, 11:00
Well...Last post I'm going to place here. When I said that I've never heard of a Marine Bolter being different I meant that I've never heard of it outside of Dark Heresy. Every 40k and 40k based product that I've ever encountered before Dark Heresy has never once indicated that Space Marine boltguns are superior to anyone else's boltgun. They were all just Boltguns.Actually its not said first in Dark Heresy... I am not sure where it was, but I have seen the same stated elsewhere. It has never been said (until Dark Heresy) how they were different, just that they were different (better, in some unexplained regard). Now, as I said, I don't like the way Dark Heresy did it (make the Space Marine one much more powerful, in line with a "normal" heavy bolter), and (as I said) prefer to think that they use the same ammunition (at least as standard... I am fine with the idea that the SM have access to special use ammunition, ala the Sternguard), but instead they have extra features non Space Marines ones don't have, and are generally better made and better cared for, so are more reliable.



The reason why "a bolter is a bolter" in base 40k is because there isn't enough room for variation within the S/AP rules. S4AP5 covers what, in Dark Heresy, is a fair range of damage.Not really. Now, 2 damage (along with the Tearing quality) doesn't seem that much better than lasguns (I don't see too much of problem with this, as the apparent closeness in effect I suspect is misleading to how it behaves in actuality of playing). And, according to Dark Heresy Space Marine bolters should be the same strength etc as a a heavy bolter, which is different enough to grant it higher strength and penetration in 40k, so should be different. Now, as I have said, I personally don't like what they did with the Space Marine, but yes, generally your point remains valid, the abstraction in 40k means that things that are apparently identical can in "reality" (ie the reality of the 40k universe) be very different in performance.



There is a LOT of information in the background, especially in the novels, stating outright that normal folk can barely lift Marine-pattern bolters, let alone fire them effectively, or carry enough ammunition to be useful in a firefight.Even though currently the models are identical... I don't like this idea. Obviously they should be bulkier, as they are being used by a 7 to 7.5 foot tall superhuman cased neck to toe (and the more sane of them head to toe) in very good armour, but I think they should in most non-appearance regards be similar weapons. The fact that Space Marines have as a standard weapon what is meant to be a very prestigious and comparatively rare weapon should be enough, especially as it certainly has functions that normal ones don't have. They don't need to be more powerful and unusable for normal people to be special.



So typically he has a 60% chance to blow someone's head off every round. An 80% chance if he's just trying to hit them, and 90% if he's firing semi-auto. Sadly, he's only fired his gun once. =(Surely the best way, at least for covert agents of the Inquisition... Currently GMing a star trek game (true, the setting does call for a lot less violence, but there was plenty of opportunities for it in this particular game), and I think the characters fired their weapons once... at a kinda ally. A roleplaying game is not a wargame. If you manage to solve a problem without direct violence it is usually a bonus, even in the 40k setting (as long as the players don't mind they didn't go around smashing people's heads in or whatever).



I would like to note though that a couple soldiers (or ex-soldiers) who I've talked to that play 40K say that they wish that they could hit their targets in a firefight with 50% accuracy.Well, that 50% chance more represents the chance of having some sort of effect with several seconds, possible several minutes (depending on the time scale a turn represents, which hasnot been stated) of firing. Unlike in Dark Heresy it does not represent a single shot, or even necessarily an actual hit on the target.



Personally, I'd love to use it to run a Gorkamorka! game.With the stats for orks in the Creature Anathema you might be cloer to your wish... unfortunately not any guidance on running alien characters yet... maybe Rogue Trader (or one of its expansions) will allow this sort of thing.

Snotteef
05-04-2009, 17:23
If the task is so easy that the chances of failure are slim (and the consequences of failure negligible) then you simply don't roll. You only roll when chances of failure are high enough to matter, and the consequences matter. If he was picking a really easy electronic lock, had all the time in the world, and messing it up slightly ain't going to do something like set alarms off, set off a trap or whatever, then you simply don't roll. Let them succeed automatically.


I guess I wasn't being clear, so I'll just say again. I know that you don't roll in very easy or unimportant matters. I understand that concept perfectly and I STILL think the system is terrible.

You can't really change somebody's mind about this: they either like the system or they don't. There are lots of ways to justify why the rules work the way they do, but I still don't like them. I've played LOTS of different RPG rules sets and there are many that I simply consider to be better written and more fun to play. Given that, when I GM Dark Heresy, I use one of my favorite rules sets, GURPS.

In GURPS, I can make a 100 point character who does exactly what I want him to do. He can be good at his job in MOST situations (not just those stacked up with modifiers) and still be considered a 'low level' character who is not very good at most other tasks. In fact, with GURPS, I can make ANY kind of character at any level and that's why I like it. I don't like character classes, I don't like rolling for stats, and I GREATLY prefer bell curve game mechanics (which are extreme at both ends, but fairly reliable right in the middle) to flat percentages. Given that, the DH rules set is not for me. I'm glad some people like it, and I can see why they do (I'm both reasonable and intelligent), but I never will.

Sorry; ranty tangent. :p

borithan
05-04-2009, 18:21
I guess I wasn't being clear, so I'll just say again. I know that you don't roll in very easy or unimportant matters. I understand that concept perfectly and I STILL think the system is terrible.

You can't really change somebody's mind about this: they either like the system or they don't.True, but saying something is terrible is different from not liking it. You can think a system is amazing, but not like it. Saying a system is terrible means that you actively think it doesn't achieve what it should, not that you just prefer it being done a different way.



Given that, when I GM Dark Heresy, I use one of my favorite rules sets, GURPS.GURPS... Always found that way too complicated myself. Have done a couple of World War 2 ones with it (which were fun enough) but I basically ignored all the modifiers it had and just made most of it myself on the fly ("-3 feels about right, so its -3 to the skill check").



In GURPS, I can make a 100 point character who does exactly what I want him to do. He can be good at his job in MOST situations (not just those stacked up with modifiers)But in GURPS the norm (not that it would happen very often, but a theoretical norm) would be to take a skill check without modifiers. In Dark Heresy the norm would be to take an action with positive modifiers. I would imagine a person working in their field would probably consider most normal actions involving their skills as a "Routine", which is a +20, meaning with average stats they will normally succeed most of the time (and you are likely to put some of your starting XP into the stats that are considered important for your role). Its just a different way of doing things. Also, from what I remember of GURPS, an 100 point character is not a low level one, but a low level hero (25 points recommended for a "realistic" civilian).



In fact, with GURPS, I can make ANY kind of character at any level and that's why I like it.Sure, if thats what you like thats what you like. Thats different from saying a system is terrible.



I don't like character classes,I like being able to create any sort of character too, but I am not sure that would really... well it doesn't have the right character for 40k (in my opinion). If they just gave you a list of skills and advantages (and if its like GURPS there are... well hundreds of the bloody things) it would be difficult to know where to start, and the impression I get from 40k people really do have their role in life.



I don't like rolling for stats,OK. Personally I am not too bothered either way myself.



and I GREATLY prefer bell curve game mechanics (which are extreme at both ends, but fairly reliable right in the middle) to flat percentages.But in the end systems end up working the exact same way, they all result in a certain percentage chance of something happening. Dark Heresy does it directly, GURPS does it another way, the Last Unicorn Star Trek game does it in yet another way.



Sorry; ranty tangent. :pCannot imagine anyone having a problem with that.

Konquest
05-04-2009, 19:12
I think the reason people have a problem with the low stats for skills when beginning is because they don't realize that the 30% chance is for challenging tasks, which would be equal to a DC 15 skill check in the d20 system. In d20, the average civilian would have only 25% chance of succeeding under pressure, so acolytes are better than the average joe (if at least by 5%). To help with the transition from d20 to DH:

Easy = DC 5 (your grandmother could do it in the middle of a blazing firefight)
Routine = DC 10
Ordinary = DC 13-ish
Challenging = DC 15
Difficult = DC 18-ish
Hard = DC 20-ish
Very Hard = DC 23-ish

Ubermensch Commander
05-04-2009, 20:49
I really enjoyed DH. The potential for a completely random character was a nice change of pace, a novel idea if you will, from other systems. I really like Shadowrun and Werewolf because it lets me custom build using points, but its also cool to go the other end of the spectrum. I do not fault DH for NOT being the other system. It also got me away from those who would "twink" out their character. Oh you think you are hot **** and are gonna find some sweet combos to get an almost autowin out of situations? Yeah, maybe...if you live that long.

I have to disagree with Gensuke and Snotleef. The attitude of "I hate rolling for stats" or "my character does exactly what i want him to do", which sounds an awful lot like "good at everything" is NOT what DH is about. You do start out at scum level. You are NOT lvl 1 fighter hurray who can kill goblins for days! You are not a Glitter Boy in power armor toting a railgun. You are schmuck no. 451, thrown into an inimical cosmos against dark powers who must struggle to get by. IF you thrive and survive, kickass. But remember, there are always more where you came from. Its a big universe and no matter what you do, you won't be missed.
Perhaps if you approached with the attitude that your character is not god and utterly expendable and that their is a random element to the game you might enjoy it more. Its like playing Guard in 40K. When you guys die you just laugh and shout out "Dead box!" and place handfuls of dead guardsmen into the container.

One of the best fights in DH was when our party boarded a derelict vessel we found in transit in the warp. GM was bending the nature 40K a bit to let us board the hulk whose geller field was working by reaching it via a boarding torpedo. (IE we didnt get our souls immediately eaten when going outside into the Warp. We just got mondo corruption points if we look at the Warp. Anyway, struggle struggle battle and toil against a possessed Navigator, our Arbites played PERFECTLY in character and called down the Emperor's holy wrath on the derelict vessel as it looked like we were gonna die badly. So the ship we were shot from unloads some torpedos to destroy the hulk. BUT! We managed to defeat the Navigator (lucky shot from the assassin i think, his damn force field was finally down.) so we desperately try to call off the strike. To which the naval bossmans answer was "Oh dear Emperor!" or some other phrase of shock and horror. So we run, desperately trying to find some way off this wretched hell-ship. And then the torpedos began to hit. Run run run and all the while Boom Boom BOOM! bits of ship auto pressurising and shutting/falling apart behind us. Suddenly there was huge boom and the whole party is thrown to the deck, just scant feet from where a huge pressure door sealed off as the compartment behind them was blown apart. All of the party save one. My psyker, who had lived way longer than any of us expected, get cut off by the blast door. Just like that, gone. All that epic battle, all that struggle, and then WHAM! Done. It was awesome and completely in the setting/feeling of Dark Heresy.

*Edit* this is all my opinion and i am trying to put forward examples and methods for those that do not enjoy the game that may enable them to like the game more.

Snotteef
06-04-2009, 01:01
I have to disagree with Gensuke and Snotleef. The attitude of "I hate rolling for stats" or "my character does exactly what i want him to do", which sounds an awful lot like "good at everything" is NOT what DH is about. You do start out at scum level.

*Edit* this is all my opinion and i am trying to put forward examples and methods for those that do not enjoy the game that may enable them to like the game more.

I'm not sure how you meant this, but I take offense to that statement. "I hate rolling for stats" does NOT equal "I want my charater to be good at everything." It means good at what I choose (not what the dice choose for me). It means balanced characters, rather than better characters for people who are luckier. I am NOT a powergamer; I don't maximize my characters. I think up a cool concept and background and build from there. Of course, if I'm rolling randomly for stats, my cool idea could be nerfed from the beginning (for instance, maybe I want to play a super-smart adept who is completely oblivious to what's going on around him.... not going to work if I roll 22 Intelligence and 40 Perception).

I consider it rude to accuse somebody of wanting to make their character good at everything (which implies powergaming) based only on the statement that they don't like rolling for stats.

@borithan: A system can achieve it's goals and I can still think it's terrible if I don't agree with its goals in the first place.:p

I've never understood this attitude that GURPS is complicated. Character creation can seem overwhelming to a new player (due to the number of choices available), but play is dead simple: roll 3d6, if it's less than your score you're successful, if it's not, you aren't.

Also, bell curve and percentage systems differ in the progression of power with each upgrade. In a percentage system, a 5% increase is always the same; in a bell curve system, a 1 point increase can mean an 11% increase or a 2% increase, depending on where you fall on the scale. If offers a more reliable median score that does not become easily overpowered at higher levels of play, because each increase means less as the skill/power progresses. So, while both ultimately result in a percentage chance to acheive a task (what dice game doesn't?); the way they go about it is quite different.

I DO think the DH system is terrible. I'm not attacking the people who like it: more power to you! In my opinion, however, anything that DH does, another system can do better.

Eldartank
06-04-2009, 02:09
I suppose, but my friends and I all agree that it doesn't help to encourage new players to try out the system.

I'd also like to point out the lasgun vs Boltgun problem that I have...

Actually, when you consider the bonuses you get for closer ranges and what-not, a Ballistic Skill of around 35% really isn't all that bad for a starting character. As for the difference between a Lasgun and a Bolgun, the Bolgun really is far more deadly. The Lasgun does 1d10+3 with no armor penetration. A Boltgun does 1d10+5 and had a penetration of 4, and the Boltgun has the Tearing quality, meaning you roll an extra d10 for the damage and drop the lowest dice. Also, the Explosive criticals done by a boltgun are much nastier than the Energy criticals of a lasgun.

I've been running a Dark Heresy campaign for about a year, and none of our group has any problems with the game. Also, I made a point to NOT have my starting level characters facing greater daemons on their first adventure, so their lack of skills at such a low level wasn't too much of a problem for them. ;)

Ubermensch Commander
06-04-2009, 06:32
I'm not sure how you meant this, but I take offense to that statement. "I hate rolling for stats" does NOT equal "I want my charater to be good at everything." It means good at what I choose (not what the dice choose for me). It means balanced characters, rather than better characters for people who are luckier. I am NOT a powergamer; I don't maximize my characters. I think up a cool concept and background and build from there. Of course, if I'm rolling randomly for stats, my cool idea could be nerfed from the beginning (for instance, maybe I want to play a super-smart adept who is completely oblivious to what's going on around him.... not going to work if I roll 22 Intelligence and 40 Perception).

I consider it rude to accuse somebody of wanting to make their character good at everything (which implies powergaming) based only on the statement that they don't like rolling for stats.


I DO think the DH system is terrible. I'm not attacking the people who like it: more power to you! In my opinion, however, anything that DH does, another system can do better.

All I was trying to do was suggest a way to get more enjoyment out of the game along with stating my opinion. Your comments echoed the statments of the ego tripping, twinking power gamer in my group. Heavens forfend, something be random, and mess up his carefully laid plan. Thats why I said it reminded me of that. Sorry, but that has been my experience.

Lets take your example:
Yeah, your character might NOT be a supergenius. You rolled something below what you were hoping for. So here are some options a good player could do:

1) simply ask the GM if you could bump up the relevant stats.
2) Ok, so hes not as smart as you want him to be. Ok, try this: The character THINKS he is the smartest genius around. Now that gives one a quirk to work around.

.

Oberst Viktor Morte
06-04-2009, 07:03
Yeah, your character might NOT be a supergenius. You rolled something below what you were hoping for. So here are some options a good player could do:

1) simply ask the GM if you could bump up the relevant stats.

The more I hear about other people, the more I'm thankful for having such a good and generous GM. One of the things that he does for character creation is that he allows one re-roll and for you to be able to swap any two stats. This allows for you to better get that concept you were going for.

Remember, the rules are guidelines, and do not have to be followed. To better suit the backgrounds of our characters, we'd sometimes get little bits of free gear or talents/skills. Nothing game-breaking, but things that fit better for the background of the character, such as mechantile, or not being able to swim, ect.

Ubermensch Commander
06-04-2009, 07:10
The more I hear about other people, the more I'm thankful for having such a good and generous GM. One of the things that he does for character creation is that he allows one re-roll and for you to be able to swap any two stats. This allows for you to better get that concept you were going for.

Remember, the rules are guidelines, and do not have to be followed. To better suit the backgrounds of our characters, we'd sometimes get little bits of free gear or talents/skills. Nothing game-breaking, but things that fit better for the background of the character, such as mechantile, or not being able to swim, ect.

Yeah, excellent points.
Cautionary note: a lesson i learned the hardway is that sometimes you DO NOT want to give the players the ability to make "the concept they wanted". Make them WORK for it. Because alot of them....want to make Mary-Sue godlings.

While the examples you give above are excellent and very similar to what our group does, you gotta keep it within reason. Now, if the WHOLE party wants to be godlines well...then let the good times roll!:D
Just gotta keep theme, ya know? Fun for whole(most) of the group.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
06-04-2009, 07:35
Yes im in a weekly gaming group of dark heresy. Playing a neonate Sanctioned Psyker with a bolt pistol (that he has no training in and no ammo) and a power fist (that he also has no training in or power source) but he looks good doing it.

Also i can only speak for the psyker class but the psychic powers are really really useless. I have 4 psychic powers that doesn't do much

Are you serious? The minor psyker powers kick the crap out of the minor spells in the Fantasy version. I think you need to re-read Spasm, Wall Walk, and the lifeform detection spell, can't remember the name. Also see Lucky, Call Item, and ... pretty much all the minor powers.

And I just want to point out that Boltguns out damage lasguns due to Tearing. More damage dice means twice as many righteous fury's. And don't forget when you roll for extra damage you stick getting to roll two dice and pick the higher one.

Lyinar
06-04-2009, 13:45
And, there's my group's Psyker's favourite minor power: Unnatural Aim. Only problem is that he tends to roll REALLY badly after he uses it.

borithan
06-04-2009, 14:50
Of course, if I'm rolling randomly for stats, my cool idea could be nerfed from the beginning (for instance, maybe I want to play a super-smart adept who is completely oblivious to what's going on around him.... not going to work if I roll 22 Intelligence and 40 Perception).Well, the intelligence of an adept is represented more by the skills and talents available to them, and the ease you can increase relevant attributes, rather than the attributes starting values themselves. Also, I am sure an understanding GM would allow re-rolls (the rules say you should be able to re-roll once anyway) if you ended up with lame stats in the main stat (though, if I remember correctly, you roll stats before choosing classes (though you can choose to roll those too), so you could choose an appropriate class for the stats you have. Also both the 40k and Warhammer RPGs are also not meant to be "choose your kind of character" kinda game, more you take what life has given you (people don't choose to be intelligent, or attractive, or often even their jobs, particularly in those universes) and try to do your best from there. Now, obviously, if you don't like that then, yeah, you won't like it.



I've never understood this attitude that GURPS is complicated. Character creation can seem overwhelming to a new player (due to the number of choices available), but play is dead simple: roll 3d6, if it's less than your score you're successful, if it's not, you aren't.Thats easy enough, yes, but its the various modifiers that start getting daft... take the WW2 game for one (which uses Gurps lite, not the full rules). The range modifiers, as an example, are overly detailed (in my opinion). Each step difference seems to be a couple of metres, and then having to keep track of how fast a person is moving (rather than just having a general moving target and/or shooter modifier, and then maybe something extra for very fast things, like speeding vehicles). As I said, I just ignored all those things and just made them up on the fly, which is any GMs prerogative, as long as the players don't mind (they didn't), but it just seem daftly detailed. And the driving rules... ok, they were advanced rules, and yes, we never used them, but really... I can't remember the details, but I'm sure there are various things like keeping track of a vehicles weight...

The basic mechanic (as in most RPGs really) is simple enough, yes, its all the stuff thrown on top thats the problem. And the daft number of skills... still not sure why they needed so many (ok, it is generic, so maybe, but not really sure they needed quite so many). Now, for a sort of gritty fantasy setting, it looked like it would work fine (still don't like the 1 second turns though... results in either waiting a very long time for things to happen, for example, waiting up to 7 turns for grenades to explode, or people actually doing too much in such a period, at least as far as I can tell), but for a WW2 or sci-fi setting, where shooting is common (and a MG34 fires 15 rounds a second...) it really was complicated, and sort of bogged down. People also die real easy to guns. Realistic, true, but I am not normally one for a realistic game when I am RPGing. I am fine with "gritty" (where people don't just shrug many things off, like they do in many RPGs), but having a PC die in the second turn of the first action scene? I worked around that, by just letting him use the same character sheet for another guy, but it felt a bit off.



Also, bell curve and percentage systems differ in the progression of power with each upgrade.Yes, true.



In a percentage system, a 5% increase is always the same; in a bell curve system, a 1 point increase can mean an 11% increase or a 2% increase, depending on where you fall on the scale.Also means identical modifiers have different effects depending on the skill's level.



One of the things that he does for character creation is that he allows one re-roll and for you to be able to swap any two stats.The first element is actually suggested in the rulebook (though a more generous GM may let you keep the better of the two scores, while they say keep the second score, even if it is worse). The second... sounds familiar, but I am not sure where from.