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Spirit
03-04-2009, 01:58
Slann - +1 power dice per spell, knows a spell lore, enemy wizard withing 24" loses 6's, BsB, 3 power stones, 2+ ward vs shooting.
490

Skink priest - Lvl 2, scroll
125

Engine Of The Gods (for priest)
290

10x Blowpipe skinks
70
10x Blowpipe skinks
70

10x Javelin skinks
80

18x saurus, spears, musician, standard,
234

Stegadon,
235

3x Terradons
90

4x Kroxigor
225

Total: 1909

Pd- 9 (usually 12 with the slanns free ones)
3x Power stones, so 9 dice from them

Dd- 6, one mage ignoring 6's (the lvl 4 one!)


96 points to spend,

Slann is not in a unit (between using magic missiles through the priest and being a large target and having a 2+ ward vs shooting, its not usually an issue. ) Not sure if 4+ ward and immune to mundane attacks is better than 2+ ward vs ranged for 20 more points.

As much as i would love some temple guard, they are just so dammed expensive and i have my heart set on 2 stegadons, so finding the points for them is hard.

Dont want any more stegadons. 2 is usually enough to make people cry.


Suggestions for the remaining points? Feel free to lose units to pay for more expensive stuff!

Thanks in advance!

Kill-Freedom
03-04-2009, 11:11
slanns arent large targets no more

Eulogy2
03-04-2009, 13:55
im just curious why you have skinks skirmishers with javelins over pipes? my thoughts would be maybe drop them and pick up 2 salamanders or razordons depending on what you usually play? that would probably leave enough points for another terradon as well.

Spirit
03-04-2009, 20:50
slanns arent large targets no more

They are when they cast spells. Which is why it helps me.


im just curious why you have skinks skirmishers with javelins over pipes? my thoughts would be maybe drop them and pick up 2 salamanders or razordons depending on what you usually play? that would probably leave enough points for another terradon as well.

For a couple of reasons.

Firstly, javelins are massivly superior to blowpipes when firing at skirmishers/characters/units in cover.

10 of them can shoot a unit of wood elf wardancers, getting 1 poison and at least 3 hits, which usually ends up with 2-3 wounds. And i have seen them do much more.

Conversly, blowpipes (assuming moving Or long range, youll never be able to be within 6" of a wood elf without moving), you are at 7's to hit (4, long range 5, skirmish 6, fire twice 7) thus you can only fire once to take advantage of poison, which means 10 shots (same as javelins) with only 1 poison (maybe 2, but javs have the same chance)

I find that there is always a good skirmish unit that i can send them after in a game. Combine it with a superior stand and shoot (5's to hit, 6's if skirmish) then i find they are worth the 1 point, which gives me a save.

However i do like salamanders, but i have a painfull lack of models as is, and losing 10 to gain 5 doesnt seem too good to me. Using the last 90 points on a slamander might be good though.

Eulogy2
03-04-2009, 21:04
I forget throwing weapons dont suffer long range.

if wood elves is your main opponent, given they have so many skirmishers i wonder if a razordon would work better? the template of a sallie wont hit nearly as many if hes forced to shoot skirmishers all the time.

Kill-Freedom
03-04-2009, 21:04
They are when they cast spells. Which is why it helps me.

How does a model that isnt a large target in there rules, becomes a large target when the case spells?

Other then being a threat, i dont see your logic

slanns arent large targets, can sit in units safely with out being picked out by every gun and magic missile coming form the enemy

Necromancy Black
03-04-2009, 23:55
How does a model that isnt a large target in there rules, becomes a large target when the case spells?


Because they have a rule saying they have the same LOS of a large target when they cast spells. It's in their rules.

I've yet to run a Slann in a unit, and he does great by himself provided you give him the extra protection he needs.


Now then, get those Kroxigors into a unit of skinks. So much better then being on their own. I'd advise you dump one as well...maybe use the points to get a Skink Cheif on terradon which will give you a really good terradon unit.

Spirit
03-04-2009, 23:57
How does a model that isnt a large target in there rules, becomes a large target when the case spells?

Other then being a threat, i dont see your logic

slanns arent large targets, can sit in units safely with out being picked out by every gun and magic missile coming form the enemy

How do you think the slann can cast magic from the second rank of a unit of temple guard? If he did not become a large target he would have no line of sight. This would hamper magic missiles significantly.

The slann has a rule that makes it a large target when it casts spells.

This helps because i can hide him behind (not in) a unit of cheap skinks, rather than expensive temple guard. He can not be targeted by the enemy. But when he casts a spell, he can see over the skinks.

This means that the slann can be extremely difficult to kill, but at the same time, easy to kill things with. This is why it helps me.


Because they have a rule saying they have the same LOS of a large target when they cast spells. It's in their rules.

I've yet to run a Slann in a unit, and he does great by himself provided you give him the extra protection he needs.

this is the boost i've been after. I wasn't convinced the sann would be good enough on his own. What extra protection would you say? 2+ ward vs shooting and 4+ ward normally or 4+ ward vs everything and immune to mundane?


Now then, get those Kroxigors into a unit of skinks. So much better then being on their own.
every time i use them in a unit my opponents seem to take advantage of me not being able to turn, but then again, an extra unit with some basic CR would probably help in this army. Do you really need 3 kroxigor in the unit? or should i just go for 2?

I'd advise you dump one as well...maybe use the points to get a Skink Cheif on terradon which will give you a really good terradon unit.

not really happy with this. basically on money issues because its 12 pounds a model for terradons, dont want more than 3. other than that i find that the terradons do fine on their own as march blockers / warmachine kilers / light cav and single character killers



Thanks a lot, gonna re work the list tomorrow i think. Keep the suggestions coming!

Definitely gonna change the krox to have some skinks with them. Dont usually like it but in this army i think it will work. Also going to look at one or 2 salamanders if possible. A slann with doom and darkness seems too awesome a combination to miss out on!

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 00:50
I went hardcore at first cause I didn't know what to give the Slann, but immune to mundane attacks and regeneration seem to be the key points to making him really live.

As you can see in my sig, the 4+ ward save and regeneration have result in Valkia getting killed twice. It's pretty good when a 400+ point combat lord can't take out a magic only character :D
Basically take regeneration or immune to mundane attacks. The fist is alot betetr against big hitting armies whilet eh second is better against mass shooting, though not for skaven. In the end, probably go with regeneration.

I run about 20 skinks with only 2 Kroxigors fine. The only time your really going to have problems is if they get alot of shots thrown at them, but the EotG might help.

Salamanders are awesome! The only time I've ever taking less then two was in a 500 point game when I still had 1! But I've never really found using Doom and Darkness with them all that good, mainly cause your opponant can clearly see your intant. You might be much better at it with 3 Power Stones though so give it a shot.

Personally I usually just take Lore of Metal. Against the majority or armies this is the Lore of choice.

bob_the_small
04-04-2009, 10:06
I think thats a great list but please put your slaan in a unit!

Kill-Freedom
04-04-2009, 13:13
Slanns specail rule

Cold blooded, disciplines of ancients, unit strenght 3

Guardians - In a battle the slann mage-priest rides upon his floating stone palanquin, and is often accompanied by the utterly resloute sauras temple guard. The temple guard form a solid block of reptiliansinew through which an enemy wishing to attack the slann mage priest must first fight. When joined to a unit of temple guard, a slann is always placed within the second rank. See page 41 for further details of how to handle this. A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat. If the slann joins units other then temple guard it is place in the front

First off the slann floats up and down, to cast spells, not sits above the unit, high lighted in blue

The part in purple, only states, his line of sight is worked out as being a large target, meaning he can see over other models in front, and around, cause he floats

It also stats in stegadons, greater deamons gaints, specail rules, large target, Does not stay it for a slann k

The mage priest hence forth is not a large target

Spirit
06-04-2009, 12:33
First off the slann floats up and down, to cast spells, not sits above the unit, high lighted in blue

The part in purple, only states, his line of sight is worked out as being a large target, meaning he can see over other models in front, and around, cause he floats

It also stats in stegadons, greater deamons gaints, specail rules, large target, Does not stay it for a slann k

The mage priest hence forth is not a large target

Ok i think we have a misunderstanding.

1: I am aware the slann does not have the rule "large target"
2: I know he floats above the unit
3: I know he goes back into the unit and is then unable to be targetted by the enemy.
4: I know how his line of sight works.

I said he was a large target when he casts spells, which is what the rule does. For all intents and purposes "Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target." is the same as "The slann is a large target when he casts spell"

This is a good thing for me because it means i can hide the slann from the enemy and still target the enemy myself. I think we are both talking about the same thing.


Thanks nosferau, will try the regeneration, when i think about it it makes more sense really.

Bob the small. Why should i put him in a unit? The whole point of his powers is so he can function independantly. And in any unit except temple guard, he does nothing usefull. I'm trying not to use those lol!

Kill-Freedom
06-04-2009, 21:31
Ok i think we have a misunderstanding.

1: I am aware the slann does not have the rule "large target"
2: I know he floats above the unit
3: I know he goes back into the unit and is then unable to be targetted by the enemy.
4: I know how his line of sight works.

I said he was a large target when he casts spells, which is what the rule does. For all intents and purposes "Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target." is the same as "The slann is a large target when he casts spell"

This is a good thing for me because it means i can hide the slann from the enemy and still target the enemy myself. I think we are both talking about the same thing.


Thanks nosferau, will try the regeneration, when i think about it it makes more sense really.

Bob the small. Why should i put him in a unit? The whole point of his powers is so he can function independantly. And in any unit except temple guard, he does nothing usefull. I'm trying not to use those lol!

I think his line of sight as a large target only comes into play, when he is in a unit of temple guard, not hiding behind terrian or other units

He must be in his temple guard

Spirit
06-04-2009, 22:28
no thats not what the rule says. There is a full stop, then it says "The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target"

Then it goes on about joining other units, which also has nothing to do with temple guard.

They are 3 seperate rules all lumped together.

Necromancy Black
06-04-2009, 22:41
I think thats a great list but please put your slaan in a unit!

God no, they are fantastic on their own.


They are 3 seperate rules all lumped together.

Exactly right. The sentences you quoted at the ones that directly refer to the LOS of rule, and the sentence "Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target" is the the part that is the exact ruling.

Simply because this is part of the Guardian rule doesn't mean mean he has to be in a TG unit to get the LOS, after all it doesn't say that.

Kill-Freedom
07-04-2009, 05:08
God no, they are fantastic on their own.



Exactly right. The sentences you quoted at the ones that directly refer to the LOS of rule, and the sentence "Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target" is the the part that is the exact ruling.

Simply because this is part of the Guardian rule doesn't mean mean he has to be in a TG unit to get the LOS, after all it doesn't say that.

A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target.

Only a slann in a unit of temple guard benefit form the LoS rules in regards to counting as a large target

Also the guardian rule, refers to a slann being in a temple guard unit

Dungeon_Lawyer
07-04-2009, 05:29
A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target.

Only a slann in a unit of temple guard benefit form the LoS rules in regards to counting as a large target

Also the guardian rule, refers to a slann being in a temple guard unit
:confused:
ok let me see if I understand your position kill-freedom.....it boils down to something like this.....

Two units of goblins, one right behind the other, are barreling down towards the slann. The goblin unit in the front has spears, the goblin unit in the rear has arrows. A slann in a TG unit would be able to target either one (because of the guardian rule and its los from 2nd rank aspect) whereas a slann on his own, would only be able to target the goblin unit with spears in the front, as he does not benefit from the aforementioned rule.........is this what you are suggesting?

Necromancy Black
07-04-2009, 05:45
A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc).

That's part one of the rule.


The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target.

That's the next part. Each part has an independent affect. As we said, the Guardian rule has three parts to it, each has it's own affect.
If you wish to continue arguing this, do not do it here.

First, search the rules forum for lizardmen threads as this has been discussed there. Secondly, if you still wish to argue make a new topic in the rules forum.

Kill-Freedom
07-04-2009, 09:49
:confused:
ok let me see if I understand your position kill-freedom.....it boils down to something like this.....

Two units of goblins, one right behind the other, are barreling down towards the slann. The goblin unit in the front has spears, the goblin unit in the rear has arrows. A slann in a TG unit would be able to target either one (because of the guardian rule and its los from 2nd rank aspect) whereas a slann on his own, would only be able to target the goblin unit with spears in the front, as he does not benefit from the aforementioned rule.........is this what you are suggesting?

Yes

the guardian is rule, is all about a slann being in the temple guard, doesnt say anywhere else in his rules, he can do it, does it?


Slanns specail rule

Cold blooded, disciplines of ancients, unit strenght 3

Guardians - In a battle the slann mage-priest rides upon his floating stone palanquin, and is often accompanied by the utterly resloute sauras temple guard. The temple guard form a solid block of reptiliansinew through which an enemy wishing to attack the slann mage priest must first fight. When joined to a unit of temple guard, a slann is always placed within the second rank. See page 41 for further details of how to handle this. A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat. If the slann joins units other then temple guard it is place in the front?

Where in the Slann's specail rules, it says its got line of sight of a large target, outside the Guardians rule??????????

A slann only benefits form his LoS being as a large target in a temple guard unit

Spirit
07-04-2009, 12:30
Where does it say the guardian rule only applies to temple guard?

It says that the slann may join temple guard in the second rank. Then, with no mention to temple guard, it says he has line of sight as is he were a large target. Then he sinks back to "his unit", "his unit" could be anything, as he can join any unit, just not in the second rank.

I ask you this then, how do yoyu work out tetto ecco's line of sight?


Slanns specail rule

Cold blooded, disciplines of ancients, unit strenght
Guardians - In a battle the slann mage-priest rides upon his floating stone palanquin, and is often accompanied by the utterly resloute sauras temple guard. The temple guard form a solid block of reptiliansinew through which an enemy wishing to attack the slann mage priest must first fight. When joined to a unit of temple guard, a slann is always placed within the second rank. See page 41 for further details of how to handle this. A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat. If the slann joins units other then temple guard it is place in the front

Four seperate rules, all within the "guardian" rule, only one of which specifies temple guard.

Just because a rule is named "guardians" does not mean he needs to be in temple guard for it to activate. In much the same whay that an item called "stegadon war spear" is not a spear nor is it a stegadon.

The names are names, the rules are rules and they are completely seperate

Spirit
07-04-2009, 15:30
OOOOKKKKK

back to the list, played a game with it and want to see what you guys think, it is basically the same, but with a few minor changes.



Slann - +1 power dice per spell, knows a spell lore, enemy wizard withing 24" loses 6's, regeneration BsB, 4 power stones, bane head.
545
Now has 4+ ward and 4+ regeneration, seems to be very effective at stopping any and all attacks on him. And will be taking lore of death or metal to maul a hero with the bane head.

Skink priest - Lvl 2, scroll, rod of the storm
150

Extra bound for that turn where they run out of scrolls and i want to deal out some pain to a unit of knights!

Engine Of The Gods (for priest)
290

10x Blowpipe skinks
70
10x Blowpipe skinks
70

20xsaurus, spears, musician, standard,
258

20x skinks, std bearer, musician, 2x kroxigor
217

these instead of the lone kroxigor to give my unit more ranks and models. was not very keen on these guys before but they are looking more and more tempting tin this army due to a lack of ranked up units.

Stegadon,
235

3x Terradons
90

1x salamander
75
No extra handler because if you buy the extra model and lose all the skinks, the salamander cannot rally if it ever flees!



Total: 2000
Pd- 9 (usually 12 with the slanns free ones)
4x Power stones, so 12 dice from them (2 dice per turn, not bad!)
one use bound pwr 6

Dd- 6, one mage ignoring 6's (the lvl 4 one!)

Kill-Freedom
07-04-2009, 23:19
Slanns dont benefit form LoS of a large target unless there in a unit


The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat.


So even with the full stops breaking the sentences its all one big rule, meaning the slann needs to be attached to a unit (not itself) to benefit form the LoS rule etc, due to the starting of following sentences all continueing of one and other with phases such as, "because of this" and "In Addition"

Spirit
08-04-2009, 00:56
Kill freedom, please kindly take your ambiguous rules answers to the 3 page thread with people disagreeing with you. I know your stance on the matter and would apprieciate it if you left your opinions there.

At no point in this new list did I say the slann did get line of sight, (regardless of how i will play it or my opinion) so your posts are getting annoying. You started a new thread to get your answers, stay there.

This is the army list thread, i'd love some opinions on the army, not the rules.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 02:41
<3 Spirit. Good list, mate. And yes I think we all know based on responses in the other thread that he counts as a large target regardless of whether or not he is in a unit or what unit it is. I also called GW (I find myself calling them 10 times a day with questions and confirmations lol) and they confirmed that he does count as a large target whenever he casts spells. Period.

Dungeon_Lawyer
08-04-2009, 03:02
OOOOKKKKK

1x salamander
75
No extra handler because if you buy the extra model and lose all the skinks, the salamander cannot rally if it ever flees!


Could go all out and take 5 power stones on the slann, although that MIGHt be overkill (however it is very tempting)

Thoughts?

On the salamander+why an extra handler can be a problem:

See now that is the knid of insight That makes me always really enjoy reading your posts spirit---

Maybe a skink hero equipped to taste? I like the 5 power stone overkill though!..... but with all those power stones you are throwing around you might want the cupped hands to give your toad some miscast protection...

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 04:22
On the salamander+why an extra handler can be a problem:

See now that is the knid of insight That makes me always really enjoy reading your posts spirit---

Maybe a skink hero equipped to taste? I like the 5 power stone overkill though!..... but with all those power stones you are throwing around you might want the cupped hands to give your toad some miscast protection...


Yeah that's crazy! I've really never thought about it that way; I always take extra skinks with my razordons! That being said, I'll likely continue to do so simply because I like having the extra crewmen but it's definately something to remember.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 04:35
Wait, now that I think about it, I don't understand what you're talking about Spirit lol. If you take additional crewmen, how does that keep you from rallying any further than it already did? You go from having 3 crewmen to 4 crewmen so how does that keep you from rallying? I'm definately missing something.

Kill-Freedom
08-04-2009, 05:11
New temple guard models = cool

Jericho
08-04-2009, 05:24
You need 25% of your starting models to rally. Extra crew + monster = 5, and if the crew are all dead then you're at 20% starting strength and unable to rally. A regular crew size would leave the monster 1/4 and 25%, therefore able to rally.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 06:31
You need 25% of your starting models to rally. Extra crew + monster = 5, and if the crew are all dead then you're at 20% starting strength and unable to rally. A regular crew size would leave the monster 1/4 and 25%, therefore able to rally.

Lol yeah I guess I just really suck at math... I was thinking it'd be 25% with 5... wow... I feel dumber than *insert name* did when she *insert verb* on the summit of *insert mountain*.

For those of you who don't know, I just created a wonderful opportunity for a Family Guy scene. :)

Spirit
08-04-2009, 08:37
On the salamander+why an extra handler can be a problem:

See now that is the knid of insight That makes me always really enjoy reading your posts spirit---

Maybe a skink hero equipped to taste? I like the 5 power stone overkill though!..... but with all those power stones you are throwing around you might want the cupped hands to give your toad some miscast protection...

Heh, thanks, it was only really luck that i chanced on this. Was playing an undead player, ate all my handles, went frenzied, killed a black knight (last one left!), had to flank a unit of 30 skeletons because of frenzy, lost combat by loads and ran lol. Spent 3 turns trying to rally on its Ld4.... Then realised i only just managed to lol. Dont think i would have noticed otherwise.

Was a funny game.

Dont have my book on me at these comps, so i'll have a look for the points of all the heroes when i get home, weas thinking about another unit of terradons for 90 points, but i dont have the money spare for them atm lol.

Kill-Freedom
08-04-2009, 09:13
I could slaughter your unprotected slann on the 2nd or 3rd turn with ease

Summon a unit of zombies behind your line, in spot where the slanns movement cant take it out of charge arc, and only choice it has is to flee, which is fine by me ;)

Imagine a slann being broken in combat by 10 zombies or so, good old combat resolution on fear causing enemy

LOL

Dungeon_Lawyer
08-04-2009, 11:50
I could slaughter your unprotected slann on the 2nd or 3rd turn with ease

Summon a unit of zombies behind your line, in spot where the slanns movement cant take it out of charge arc, and only choice it has is to flee, which is fine by me ;)

Imagine a slann being broken in combat by 10 zombies or so, good old combat resolution on fear causing enemy

LOL

well that IS something to consider, perhaps the fear causing standard is in order. Though that unit of zombies would prob pull out a few dispell dice.

Spirit
08-04-2009, 13:14
I could slaughter your unprotected slann on the 2nd or 3rd turn with ease

Summon a unit of zombies behind your line, in spot where the slanns movement cant take it out of charge arc, and only choice it has is to flee, which is fine by me ;)

Imagine a slann being broken in combat by 10 zombies or so, good old combat resolution on fear causing enemy

LOL


Ok, so let me get this straight.

a: I have to let a vampie within 12" of me, this has many counters, the vampire must be in a unit, else he will get killed by terradons.

b: I have to let the vampire that is within 12" cast raise dead. Considering i will know your vampire has the spell, this should not be difficult to stop.

c: I have to let you cast vanhells, if not cast, i get a full turn to do something about the unit. Good luck getting both required spells past my dice, with one of your vampires ignoring all6's rolled and both spells only having a 12" range (i.e only one vampire will usually be in range)

d: My turn, i have 20 skinks, all of which will be withing 12" of my slann to get his ld, all of which will be B-lining for your newly raised unit of 5-7 zombies

e: i have a full magic phase, in which i will have and engine of the gods, which you cannot stop, 12 power dice worth of magic, 3-5 power stones for 9-15 more dice andprobably a bound spell (remember raise dead only raises 5-7 zombies)

f: if this fails, i have 4 javelins on the steg, 3 terradons (who in a vampire army uauslly dont kill much) and 20 skinks, all capable of shooting them, and probably all able to charge the zombies anyway, as bas as terradons are, they are damed good zombie killers.

g: In any case, i only need to kill a MAXIMUM of 4 zombies. Because 3 of them will not outnumber the slann, it has US3. And thats assuming you roll 3 on the d3 to bring up zombies.

So in short, i need to let you do at least 2 things for your tactic to work, and you need to stop me doing about 5 or 6, some of which you cannot stop (shooting, eotg) in oder for it to fail.

Vampires are the only other army i play in fantasy, i've played them for years, they arent gonna pull a trick like that on me. And in any case, i'm willing to take the risk to not have to buy 250 points wirth of temple guard.

Do you have the capability for constructive criticism like the rest of the forum? Or are you going to continually put out badly thought out ways to try and put me down?

PARTYCHICORITA
08-04-2009, 13:44
Slann - +1 power dice per spell, knows a spell lore, enemy wizard withing 24" loses 6's, BsB, 3 power stones, 2+ ward vs shooting.

Why the "knows all spells from a lore" power? It costs 50pts while plague of Tepok only costs 15. I would rather save 35pts and don't know 1 spell.

Other than that pretty solid list.

Spirit
08-04-2009, 14:58
Why the "knows all spells from a lore" power? It costs 50pts while plague of Tepok only costs 15. I would rather save 35pts and don't know 1 spell.

Other than that pretty solid list.

I tried this, every time i lose a spell that i would want to use to get the full effect.

If you lose the 2d6 hits spell from the lore its usually brutal, and i'd rather pay to be sure. In the 2 games that a played i lost a: the 2d6 hits and b: the "target anything, no restrictions" which meant my banehead was useless.

for the list, gonna put banehead on the slann (15), 2 more saurus (24), 2 moreskinks + a musician (11) and a 4th power stone.

Think that my list the way i like it! lol.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 15:27
Spirit what lore do you use with your Slann and why? I'm thinking of re-making my army with a Slann. Here's another dillema of mine: I want Tetto'eko for his strategic value of re-depoying D3 units and the IF on rolls of doubles for lore of heavens, but I also want an EOTG for obvious reasons. The problem is I don't want 1k+ worth of points spent on characters. :( What to do, what to do!?

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 15:35
Also I always kinda figured that making a strategic lizard army and NOT taking cupped hand of the old ones or cube of darkness wasn't even an option. What are your thoughts? I especially like cube of darkness; ending the magic phase immediately on a 4+ is awesome. That could completely screw up somebody's plan for the entire battle in one phase.

Spirit
08-04-2009, 16:27
The cube of darkness never works if i take it, ever, period. Dont know what it is but the dice weigh them selves down on the 6 side every time. while i like cupped hands, i played necrarch vampires (and what i like to think are necrarch in the 7th ed book) for over 4 years and i never had a problem with miscasts. Ill only ever cast one spell on 4 dice a turn (none if i take death magic) so i find i very rarely miscast. althoguh i can see why people would take it, i just prefer all out power stones. If it was 40 points i would take it with 3 stones every game.

As for lore, i take death or metal. both have very good damage and very good support spells

Used metal against undead last week (may sound silly, he thought i was being really silly when i said it) and this is what it does


Spell 1, + bane head + flayed hauberk = 2+ for a dead vampire turn 1.
Spell 2, -1 to hit and wound and armour in combat, awesome against already crap troops.
Spell 3, a chariot/warmachine cannot move: Used this because he had a black coach, made it useless for a turn or drew out 4 dispell dice, both good
spell 4, 2d6 S4 hits, always good, but its flaming so it screws over the drakenhoff banner and varghulfs
spell 5, 1-3 magic item is useless for a turn 4-6 its destroyed: managed to destroy a magic banner and the sword of kings on his vampire, not as usefull usually but i got lucky
spell 6, brutally re-murders black knights and blood knights.


Absolutely mauled him, 5/6 spells were use-able every turn, so i could just point and click.

Death magic:

3d6 S4 hits (on two spells) ,
d6S3 no armour save in an area (awesome on turn 3 onwards) ,
cause a wound and gain a wound on your already 5W slann(2 caused wounds with bane head, dead bsb/hero),
make a unit cause fear/terror (useful on kroxigor, but overall not TOO good)

Doom and darkness: Now this one is the cream of the crop. Use your magic to kill things, once finished and you know what it about to panic, cast this beast. If they run away, they have to first pass a -3Ld to stop the effects of the spell THEN rally. Or you can make stupid units REALLY stupid.

The lore is worth it for doom and darkness alone, but it can also do massive amounts of physical damage, more than any other lore usually, and all the spells are 10+ or lower to cast (-1 with EOTG means you can easily cast 4 spells per turn before using any power stones)

the problems i find with the other lores is that they dont do enough damage.
Lore of beasts only really has 2d6 S3 and one S6, however i would take it if i was facing a dragon, because i have massive problems dealing with them and beast cowers really helps. But even then the sheer amout of damage death and metal have kill dragons, or at the very least, the stupid rider on top.
Lore of fire, while good, is not as varied and does not support your army much. Conflagration has the potential to be really good or really bad (usually really bad because you have to roll higher), flaming head is usually pants for what it does, the rest are good.
Lore of shadows, crown of taridon is pretty useless on a slann, as is steed of shadows for me (my heros are all magic casters on on stegs, so it might be usefull to other players)
Lore of heaven, can already be taken, and generally does not do much damagem, its good if your only casting 1 or 2 spells a turn, but when you are aiming for 3 or 4, some of the spells just dont do enough.
Lore of life, this one is a possibility depending on the board, especially with the ability to restore wounds, so go for it if you have a use for it
Lore of light, the spells are all too short ranged, might be good if you use temple guard, d6 S4/5 (5/6?) when your actually moving towards the enemy is probably a game winner, but i dont find much use every turn for the lore.


Edit: Dont forget, if you've got portent of far and some spare dice for your priest, cast it on the slann, killing knights with spirit of the forge on a 2+ with a re roll on all 1's is funny. Or killing a character with the rule of burning iron on a 2+ with a re roll is similarly brilliant.

Same even with all the magical missiles, the one or 2 extra wounds can make the difference.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 16:55
Thanks for the breakdown. I'm seeing potential in combining the effects of Doom and Darkness with Plaque of Dominion. Your thoughts?

Spirit
08-04-2009, 17:27
Thanks for the breakdown. I'm seeing potential in combining the effects of Doom and Darkness with Plaque of Dominion. Your thoughts?

Haha, yea i like it. It does rely on them failing the Ld in their turn though, so make sure you pick ld8 targets as a maximum.

also, on the zombies killing a slann argument earlier, i just remembered, my slann is a bsb. So not only do the zombies need to outnumber my slann, they need to cause a wound on him to win the combat, with 4+ to hit and 6+ to wound with a 4+/4+ ward. Lol.

SiNNiX
08-04-2009, 18:37
Spirit I made a new Lizardmen army that isn't complete and need help with; posted in this forum. Could you look at it for me and see what you think? Oh, and just so you know ahead of time, I totally stole your Slann and your Priest setup. SORRY! It just seems too good to pass up and I think it's a great idea. I gave you credit, don't worry. :)

Kill-Freedom
08-04-2009, 21:19
Ok, so let me get this straight.

a: I have to let a vampie within 12" of me, this has many counters, the vampire must be in a unit, else he will get killed by terradons.

b: I have to let the vampire that is within 12" cast raise dead. Considering i will know your vampire has the spell, this should not be difficult to stop.

c: I have to let you cast vanhells, if not cast, i get a full turn to do something about the unit. Good luck getting both required spells past my dice, with one of your vampires ignoring all6's rolled and both spells only having a 12" range (i.e only one vampire will usually be in range)

d: My turn, i have 20 skinks, all of which will be withing 12" of my slann to get his ld, all of which will be B-lining for your newly raised unit of 5-7 zombies

e: i have a full magic phase, in which i will have and engine of the gods, which you cannot stop, 12 power dice worth of magic, 3-5 power stones for 9-15 more dice andprobably a bound spell (remember raise dead only raises 5-7 zombies)

f: if this fails, i have 4 javelins on the steg, 3 terradons (who in a vampire army uauslly dont kill much) and 20 skinks, all capable of shooting them, and probably all able to charge the zombies anyway, as bas as terradons are, they are damed good zombie killers.

g: In any case, i only need to kill a MAXIMUM of 4 zombies. Because 3 of them will not outnumber the slann, it has US3. And thats assuming you roll 3 on the d3 to bring up zombies.

So in short, i need to let you do at least 2 things for your tactic to work, and you need to stop me doing about 5 or 6, some of which you cannot stop (shooting, eotg) in oder for it to fail.

Vampires are the only other army i play in fantasy, i've played them for years, they arent gonna pull a trick like that on me. And in any case, i'm willing to take the risk to not have to buy 250 points wirth of temple guard.

Do you have the capability for constructive criticism like the rest of the forum? Or are you going to continually put out badly thought out ways to try and put me down?

So while your pulling out all your stops to prevent your slann being over whelmed by a summoned unit of zombies, my main force is moving uneffected, by all the magic, and shooting your pouring into the zombies that threathen your slann, which would benefit me more, as my units would reach the enemy lines in greater numbers :D

Also you think you have 6 points to stop this form happening, sorry to stay, unless your going to deploy in a big massive block, half the units you mentioned would be out of range to do anything, to the summoned unit

Oh and some vampire players are IoN spammers, 17 power dice, good luck stopping that LOL

Spirit
08-04-2009, 21:46
You really make no sense when you post. I don't have to pull out all the stops, i listed all the POSSIBLE ways to stop it, only one of them has to work, be it the first, the last or any of the ones in between.

and like i just said, all i need to do is kill 4 T2 no save zombies and your tactic wont work. Do you seriously think that's not going to work?

Even if half of my units that i want to use to stop it are out of range, that leaves me with 3 of them, of which i need to kill 3 zombies. and if your saying its going to take a 17 power dice invocation spammer to stop me doing this, yet your saying IM the one wasting my army by having it in a block, your being very silly.

17 dice invocation spamming or not, this is a physical game, not a theoretical one, you WILL NOT GET MORE THAN 2 VAMPIRES WITHIN 12" OF MY SLANN so you could have 50 power dice for all i care, you can only use 6 at maximum to raise a unit of zombies (assuming i stay away from your vampire lord, which isnt hard)

the slann in us 3 with +1 combat resolution, 7 zombies will be very lucky to win a combat against him, 3 or less will never do it.

If i really wanted, i could jsut make my slann ethereal, since your coming up with lists that specifically counter me, hows this. 7 zombies charge a slann, outnumber vs bsb, drawn combat, you cannot hurt me. Good game.

Lasty, have you played and lizards recently? Anyone who does not keep their units within 12" of their slann at 2000 points is mad. Ld9 is better than running my units all over the board. (remember how range works, its 12" BOTH WAYS, so thats a third of the board i have to use before i go out of range of my slann)



Need it spelling out any clearer? Every time you post you put people down for no reason, its getting boring.



If anything, please explain why half of my points will not be within range of my slann?

Magic, 24" range usually,
EOTG, 12" move + 2d6 range, 15" range
terradons, 20" charge range, + drop rocks + javelins
skinks, 6" move +12" range, 18"

If im keeping everything this far away from my biggest hardest unit, i deserve to lose my slann.

Ill tell you what, lets end this argument now, seeing as you have concocted a whole list to counter me, i'll put the standard on my slann that makes him cause fear, charge him with 100 zombies, i still only flee if i fail ld5 cold blooded with a re-roll.

Happy?

Spirit
08-04-2009, 21:54
Spirit I made a new Lizardmen army that isn't complete and need help with; posted in this forum. Could you look at it for me and see what you think? Oh, and just so you know ahead of time, I totally stole your Slann and your Priest setup. SORRY! It just seems too good to pass up and I think it's a great idea. I gave you credit, don't worry. :)

Haha, you only said "4 disciplines" you could easily have gotten away with it!

Thanks, comments posted.

Kill-Freedom
09-04-2009, 05:08
Well if your going to buy a what 75 point banner just to comabt me, it seems i had proved my point ;)

Oh and not hard to get a vampire that moves 18, or even flies, into range of a slann, and in the safety of terrain :D, unless you always depoly out in the open with no terrain in 12 of anything LOL

You base your fact on the 7 zombies, forgetting all about the sceptre de noirot which can raise 10 to 12 zombies, meaning at least +1 to CR and the fact that when most vamp players create new units, they will then add to it, unless your using it as a charge block :cool:

Oh and while your dealing with preventing a unit of zombies wiping the floor with your slann, you have just been charge by a unit of fell bats for example :skull:

SiNNiX
09-04-2009, 05:29
Although not as intelligent as most people, I would like to point out that Kill-Freedom is absolutely incredible at utilizing smilies.

That being said, Theoryhammer can really get out of hand and dumb sometimes.

Kill-Freedom
09-04-2009, 05:37
Although not as intelligent as most people, I would like to point out that Kill-Freedom is absolutely incredible at utilizing smilies.

That being said, Theoryhammer can really get out of hand and dumb sometimes.

If you dont consider the possibilites you can quickly get overwhelmed ;) a good general always takes into account, every aspect that can serousily alter an outcome of a battle

My view on these things, is maybe why, i always win best general in the tourns i enter

SiNNiX
09-04-2009, 06:26
My theory is correct! Finally - it's been proven!!! At every tournament I've been to since I got back from Iraq, a frickin VC player has won best general! Even in a tournament where I won all 3 of my games (2 of them being massacres and 1 of them being a 700pt victory over the VC player), the VC player that I had beaten won best general! How does that always happen!? Does it just look impressive to play a VC army or what?

Spirit
09-04-2009, 12:38
Kill freedom, just leave me alone, there is no convincing you, im tired. Zombies are never goning to kill my slann, the sceptre only works on one vampire and that one vampire can only use 4 power dice to cast the spell. Those will be the ones i remove all 6's from.

You say im proving your point by taking a FIFTY (50) point banner to counter you, but your taking at least 900 points in heroes, all based around raising zombies, just to get at my slann. Your the one being silly here. And anyway, i don't need to banner, it was just a way of ending the stupid argument.

If an entire vampire army with 17 power dice and 1000 points on heroes (probably more) is spending an entire magic phase killing my 500 point slann, you only have 1000 points of troops on the board, because all your invocation spamming is going into the zombies. That means i have 1500 points of troops to kill your 1000. Your down by 500 points on a massivly complex plan that will never work.

Fell bats suffer from the same problem, they only get +1 CR for outnumber, my slann has a battle standard, drawn combat, no auto break.

Give. It. Up.

Kill-Freedom
09-04-2009, 14:55
My theory is correct! Finally - it's been proven!!! At every tournament I've been to since I got back from Iraq, a frickin VC player has won best general! Even in a tournament where I won all 3 of my games (2 of them being massacres and 1 of them being a 700pt victory over the VC player), the VC player that I had beaten won best general! How does that always happen!? Does it just look impressive to play a VC army or what?

Lol, Vampires is an awesome army, with endless choices to make, you can taylor an army to do anything

Also at 2000 point games, depending on how you run them, you can have a decent wizard, and also a great fighter, no other armies (except maybe deamons and warriors of chaos i guess) can do it, they either have to take one or another

@spirit, most vampire players takes a fair load of points in charaters, not because we want to, but because we have too ;)

Oh and also spirit a IoN spamming vamp army is never down points, not when we can create a **** load of troops to replace what we put into charaters a turn :D

Spirit
09-04-2009, 15:12
You will be down in points if your using all 17 dice to raise one unit of zombies. which is what you are suggesting.

If you dont use all 17 power dice to raise the unit of zombies, you will not raise a unit of zombies to the sizes you are talking about and your point is moot.

If, as you suggest, you want a "decent wizard and a great fighter" YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO INVOCATION SPAMM.

I know vampire players have to take a load of points in characters, but i would never dream if taking 3 vampire thralls all with forbidden lore. Its a waste of points and that is what you are suggesting.

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it.

Spirit
09-04-2009, 15:16
Oh and not hard to get a vampire that moves 18, or even flies, into range of a slann, and in the safety of terrain :D, unless you always depoly out in the open with no terrain in 12 of anything LOL




Oh, forgot about this one.

First, he will be the vampire that ignores 6's, so good luck castign the spell in the first place.

If the vampire leaves his unit, he gets killed by terradons, nothing you can do. 7S4 hits + 3 javelins will kill him. Ive done it twice to the local vamp player. Dead vampire

If he goes within 20" of my slann (12" range + 8" move) then he loses 2 wounds to drain life and bane head. dead vampire

If he has the flayed hauberk, he loses 2 wounds to metal spell 1 + bane head
dead vampire.


Next useless solution to killing my slann?

SiNNiX
09-04-2009, 16:54
Just to let you two know, I have now made popcorn and am helping myself to a delicious caffienated beverage.

Please.

Continue. :)

Spirit
09-04-2009, 21:25
I would love nothing more than to stop, but he is insistant.

It's like trying to mind war a squig. It should work. But for some reason the squig wont melt and my head keeps getting sore.

Kill-Freedom
13-04-2009, 12:01
Oh, forgot about this one.

First, he will be the vampire that ignores 6's, so good luck castign the spell in the first place.

If the vampire leaves his unit, he gets killed by terradons, nothing you can do. 7S4 hits + 3 javelins will kill him. Ive done it twice to the local vamp player. Dead vampire

If he goes within 20" of my slann (12" range + 8" move) then he loses 2 wounds to drain life and bane head. dead vampire

If he has the flayed hauberk, he loses 2 wounds to metal spell 1 + bane head
dead vampire.


Next useless solution to killing my slann?


Terridons cant charge into the middle of a piece of forest, however the camp can cast out of it, you still need line of sight to declare a charge ;)

Oh so you would waste points on bane head, to put on a lvl 2 vampire, carrying a sceptre de noirot and not on my vamp lord? first off you will need to take a guess, which of the 3 hero lvl vamps is the one attempting to move into terrain near your leader, cause i am pretty sure, unless you have a magic item, that tells you what magic items my charaters are carrying, you have a 33.33 percent chance of getting it right

Volrath
16-04-2009, 00:56
man, this is quite entertaining. Being a VC player i'd never make such a worthless effort to raise some damn zombies on the mere chance some crazy buffed up Slaan would somehow fail everything and run, etc etc.

Whatever Vamp you do manage to get within range to do anything is a gimmick character anyway...you'd never bring him to a tourney or anything else because he has one goal, to try and raise some zombies to get Spirit's Slaan....never happen.

I once had this bum try and attack me out of nowhere for no reason...i just gave him some damn money and he left me alone...do you need money Kill?

Spirit
16-04-2009, 11:34
Terridons cant charge into the middle of a piece of forest, however the camp can cast out of it, you still need line of sight to declare a charge ;)

Oh so you would waste points on bane head, to put on a lvl 2 vampire, carrying a sceptre de noirot and not on my vamp lord? first off you will need to take a guess, which of the 3 hero lvl vamps is the one attempting to move into terrain near your leader, cause i am pretty sure, unless you have a magic item, that tells you what magic items my charaters are carrying, you have a 33.33 percent chance of getting it right

A: Terradons dont need to charge, they only have to move over the desired unit to drop rocks. No line of sight required. Charging the vampire WOULD be madness. They then also get 3 poisoned javelins hitting on a 6 (if the vamp is i cover)

B: Yes, i would put bane head on a lvl 2 vampire, because it KILLS it in one go. Vampires tend to be very good at putting a 1 wound vampire lord back to 3 wounds in a turn, they ALSO tend to have the biggest ward save, which means i'll need 3 castings of the spell on average to kill him, in a 6 turn game. (remember before, you were usng the 17 power dice invocation spamm of doom list? Why on earth would i waste bane head on the lord that i cant kill?)

C: Even if i guessed wrong, 1 instant wound from the spell (which needs no line of sight) and 7 S4 htis that you can't stop (which need no line of sight) is plenty.

I have never used bane head on a lord level character because it requires 2-3 sucessfull spells to work. Heroes are a much better target and instantly give me more of a magical advantage.

So i repeat. Any more useless solutions?


man, this is quite entertaining. Being a VC player i'd never make such a worthless effort to raise some damn zombies on the mere chance some crazy buffed up Slaan would somehow fail everything and run, etc etc.

Whatever Vamp you do manage to get within range to do anything is a gimmick character anyway...you'd never bring him to a tourney or anything else because he has one goal, to try and raise some zombies to get Spirit's Slaan....never happen.

I once had this bum try and attack me out of nowhere for no reason...i just gave him some damn money and he left me alone...do you need money Kill?

THANK YOU. Im glad i'm not the only vampire player that finds this ridiculous.

Necromancy Black
16-04-2009, 11:51
Sorry spirit.

If I realised this fool was in here talking nonsense I would have come help you out sooner :p

But then you don't really need help, your points are all perfect.

Plus I keep my slann near all my other units. He's my Ld General and BSB, he's the rock of my army. He's going where all the Saurus blocks go, cause he makes them so much better. Plus you want him in range of combats to cast Transmutation of Lead.

You can try and get the spell off all you want. If you roll the spell you know there will be a scroll waiting for it, and with that character having to throw away it's 6's it won't be a IF roll. Hell, you'll probably throw that many dice at it you'll have a good change of miscasting :D

Also Spirit, I find the use of banehead on Lords is alright, especially in the case of vampire generals as the enemy can get scared into wasting disple dice or scrolls. I tend to use it alot for either getting the enemy to waste dice or to try and keep dice in reserve to stop it. If you use it on a hero and kill it off you dion't get this affect but you do of course remove a character from teh game.

So either way is valid.

Spirit
16-04-2009, 16:45
Sorry spirit.

If I realised this fool was in here talking nonsense I would have come help you out sooner :p

But then you don't really need help, your points are all perfect.

Plus I keep my slann near all my other units. He's my Ld General and BSB, he's the rock of my army. He's going where all the Saurus blocks go, cause he makes them so much better. Plus you want him in range of combats to cast Transmutation of Lead.

You can try and get the spell off all you want. If you roll the spell you know there will be a scroll waiting for it, and with that character having to throw away it's 6's it won't be a IF roll. Hell, you'll probably throw that many dice at it you'll have a good change of miscasting :D

Also Spirit, I find the use of banehead on Lords is alright, especially in the case of vampire generals as the enemy can get scared into wasting disple dice or scrolls. I tend to use it alot for either getting the enemy to waste dice or to try and keep dice in reserve to stop it. If you use it on a hero and kill it off you dion't get this affect but you do of course remove a character from teh game.

So either way is valid.

Yay calalry! lol

Fair enough on the bane head, but i like killing heroes lol, 150-200 vp's in one spell is a good start to getting your slanns points back lol. Guess everyone has their own ideas on it. But i still stand by that using it on a hero is not a "waste" of a 15 point magic item :p

Probably works for me because somewhere between my 9 power dice, 3 or 4 free dice and 3 power stones, they usually use up all their dice anyway! xD

Necromancy Black
16-04-2009, 22:31
Yay calalry!

.....eh? :p



Probably works for me because somewhere between my 9 power dice, 3 or 4 free dice and 3 power stones, they usually use up all their dice anyway! xD

I have the problem of people taking a ton of dispel scrolls, so I need something with a high level of nastiness to get off and get off each turn to pull them all out. Banehead really helps make this happen.

So yeah, there definitely are some more subtle and tactical uses for Banehead, but I agree it's not anywhere near as good a lord killer as it is a hero killer.

Penguni7
18-04-2009, 06:30
People!!! come on there's a reason they print the rule book. if you don't have it buy it off ebay if you don't have money mow yards it's pretty easy to get $20