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Silverwing
15-12-2005, 01:44
I find the lack of any heavy weapons in a Tau Fire Warrior squad, to be very crippling. Fire Warriors are a very good anti-horde unit and generally a very good anti-infantry unit. However, the fact that they lack any portable heavy weapons, severely limits their use to just that – infantry killing. I find this very annoying, because I am forced to use hammerheads and broadsides; otherwise my anti-tank capabilities are almost null. Space Marines and Imperial guard, for example can all link weapons such as rocket launchers and lascannons into their squads or take them as upgrades. Eldar can have star cannons, etc.

Is there any word on Tau Fire Warrior squads getting any sort of heavy weapon upgrade to go in a squad, like a portable rail gun for example? It would make fire warriors a much more versatile unit, and people would most likely be able to use more squads in place of broadsides and hammerheads.

Lanfiex
15-12-2005, 02:00
Well there is the marker light

With the new marker drones that can give you 3 marker lights in a fire warrior squad that launch seeker missiles.

But beyond that nothing. Any way fire warriors don’t need heavy weapons. Tau have heavy weapons in the form of suits

Tau are about specialised units. if you don’t like it play another army, oh and one which isn’t. nids or Necrons because they are about specialised units as well.

GodHead
15-12-2005, 02:00
No they won't... :rolleyes:

One of the biggest features differentiating Tau from other armies is their lack of heavy or special weapons in the standard infantry units, because they're all on the Battlesuits. It's one of the defining features of Tau and won't be gotten rid of. You want weapons in your infantry? Go play Guard.

Acolyte
15-12-2005, 02:02
Nope, the Fire Warriors aren't changing at all. The rumour about Rail Rifles for Fire Warriors kicked around a bit, but I'm pretty sure it was soundly debunked.

Crisis Suits were created to replace the need for FW squad weapons, according to the GW designer notes.

hadokn
15-12-2005, 02:06
Don't try to play with Tau like you would with another army. The lack of heavy weapons in FW squads is only crippling if you don't use suits or tanks. I understand your complaint, but that's just part of Tau flavor.

Silverwing
15-12-2005, 02:09
well there is the markerlight
tau are about speailsed unit if you dont like it play another army oh and one which inst nids or nercons because they are about speaised units as well

You my friend are a very, very angry person. I like the Tau, and nowhere in my post did I claim otherwise. I do not know why you infer random motives from my post. Anywho, there is a spell check available on the internet (for free), you should use it. It certainly helps those that have trouble typing correctly and coherently. Punctuation is also a good skill to have.

Cheers.

Lanfiex
15-12-2005, 02:19
You my friend are a very, very angry person. I like the Tau, and nowhere in my post did I claim otherwise. I do not know why you infer random motives from my post. Anywho, there is a spell check available on the internet (for free), you should use it. It certainly helps those that have trouble typing correctly and coherently. Punctuation is also a good skill to have.

Cheers.

i am not being angry about any thing

i told you what heavy wepoan options are, then told you what i think about heavy wepaons in tau.

you can make comments at my spelling but i would rather people not be able to understand my spelling and ask me what i said, rather than let let the spell check convert my words into some thing i dont mean. if you had spelling difficulties you would understand, but you dont so i ask you that next time to says you cant understand my post and ask me to re-write it.

Silverwing
15-12-2005, 02:21
You're right, I am sorry. I made incorrect inferences about your motives.

Lord Balor
15-12-2005, 02:43
Bickering aside, Firewarriors will not be recieving Heavy Weapon options for a number of reasons. The first being that a standard Str 5 30'' weapon should be able to deal with the majority of Light Vehicles and all light to medium infantry units with relative ease. Guard, Eldar and Orks with access to heavy weapons do so because they do not have the survivability, range or Weapon strength of the Tau Pulse Rifle.

The second is that the Tau are a mobile specialist army much akin to the Necrons, Tyranids and Craftworld Eldar where each unit has specific tasks and must be used in unision to be truely effective. Isolated units are weakened dramatically because they cannot deal with every threat and so the reason while the majority of the army can be quite mobile is for rapid redeployment and reinforcement.

The third point is simply GW's answer, crisis suits.

Sir Charles
15-12-2005, 02:48
Wasn't there a rumor that it was going to be possible to replace all pulse rifles in a unit with carbines at one point, did anything ever come of that?

Dvalin
15-12-2005, 02:54
Sir Charles; from what I've heard, you've got it correct. A fire warrior squad will be able to replace all rifles with carbines, it appears. Mind, with the current stats for carbines this is sort of a null point -- why use carbines when you can use rifles? The only advantage is between 12" and 18" when moving and pinning; in turn you lose 1 shot under 12" while moving or a shot between 18" and 30" while stationary. Given the limited amount of pinning going on, well.. bleh.

Now, mind, if you wanted to go pathfinder-heavy and suppress the enemy by use of markerlights and pinning, having more carbines would be quite handy -- but that's a rather iffy gameplan, simply said.

Lanfiex
15-12-2005, 02:58
yes the pulse carbines are in the round up thread

Eldoriath
15-12-2005, 04:18
I like my firewarriors the way they are. They are practically carrying around heavy bolters more or less. They don't relly need any special or heavy weapons in their units, they work fine as is. Want something that can hit hard though? Get a markerlight and some seekers. Works well enough for me.

Silverwing
15-12-2005, 05:12
A markerlight is pretty expensive, since you have to get a Shas'Ui to get it...

blackroyal
15-12-2005, 07:14
I find the lack of any heavy weapons in a Tau Fire Warrior squad, to be very crippling. ... However, the fact that they lack any portable heavy weapons, severely limits their use to just that – infantry killing.
I'd let you use heavy weapons in a FW squad if you let my homaguants have S5 attacks. Your standard gun is a "Heavy weapon". You can take out armor on most tanks (side/rear). You just have to get the angle.

droidman
15-12-2005, 09:12
A markerlight is pretty expensive, since you have to get a Shas'Ui to get it...

You should always get the Shas'Ui, Ld 8 is worth the cost. The problem with the markerlight is that unless you pay more to get a target lock, it's a waste and the TL makes it too expensive.

hadokn
15-12-2005, 09:37
Now, mind, if you wanted to go pathfinder-heavy and suppress the enemy by use of markerlights and pinning, having more carbines would be quite handy -- but that's a rather iffy gameplan, simply said.

I was just gonna say, the new marker rules make pulse carbines much more apealing, but not enough to take more than a 4:1 ratio of rifles to carbines. An all carbines team would have been money in 3rd Ed, but rifles are just so good now.

my_name_is_tudor
15-12-2005, 09:38
@ droidman, that depends how desperately you want markerlights, and given the new rules, expect to see a lot of markerlight heavy armies.

Dvalin
15-12-2005, 09:51
hadokn; the only problem with a carbine-markerlight plan is that you need to inflict a wound. Against one's principal opponent -- space marines -- you need a lot of carbine shots to reliably do that, and then also a lot of markerlights to reliable pin said marines. One may as well just try to kill them outright, no? Unless, of course, you expect to face assault marines -- in which case taking the effort to make sure they're stuck in place may be worth it. Of course, one could always just use markerlights with sniper drones to get the effect -- more reliably, even.

In other words, I'm seriously hoping that the carbine has received a buff -- otherwise, it will remain a cute but ineffectual idea.

hadokn
15-12-2005, 13:08
Good points. But with marker support the Carbines get better at both hitting and pinning. Granted that sniper drones and rail rifles are better at it, but when they have to test for pinning against every unit, it helps to have as many pinning weapons as possible. I bet that we'll see more drone squadrons after the codex.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-12-2005, 13:08
I wouldn't mind giving Carbines to an Ethereal Honour Guard. BS4, in a Devilfish, with Carbines? And Burst Cannon/SMS armed Fish? Yes please!

Eldoriath
15-12-2005, 14:15
You should always get the Shas'Ui, Ld 8 is worth the cost. The problem with the markerlight is that unless you pay more to get a target lock, it's a waste and the TL makes it too expensive.

You dont have to get a target lock for him for it to be effective really. All other units ('cept longfangs) must shoot at the same target. Tau have the nifty option to be able to shoot at another unit, but at a cost of course.
I have played without target locks, and sure, sometimes i wish i had it. But most of the times there really is no need to.
Most of the times i will use the ML on the unit the rest of my unit wll be shooting at. Against marines i hope to get a hit to be able to fire a seeker, or maybe to guide that submunition railgun shot at those scouts in the ruins.
Against guards, i might end up wasting shots to try and fire a seeker against some chimera or hellhound (if my crisis fails the job). But in those cases it doesn't feel all that bad really. If i played marines or guards all the other shots would have been wasted anyways.
The first time i looked through the codex i thought "Pathfinders must be the most useless unit in the whole tau army". But after some time, after reading some internet tactics for them, i decided to test them out after all. And what did i find out? They work excellent. You just have to find them a purpose, a role to fill. That's all.

On a sidenote: What i hope for (but is unlikely) is that the FW shas'uis ML will be networked. Get one hit and all other in the unit gets BS4, mmm =)

Jeru
15-12-2005, 15:59
I find the lack of any heavy weapons in a Tau Fire Warrior squad, to be very crippling. Fire Warriors are a very good anti-horde unit and generally a very good anti-infantry unit. However, the fact that they lack any portable heavy weapons, severely limits their use to just that – infantry killing. I find this very annoying, because I am forced to use hammerheads and broadsides; otherwise my anti-tank capabilities are almost null. Space Marines and Imperial guard, for example can all link weapons such as rocket launchers and lascannons into their squads or take them as upgrades. Eldar can have star cannons, etc.

Is there any word on Tau Fire Warrior squads getting any sort of heavy weapon upgrade to go in a squad, like a portable rail gun for example? It would make fire warriors a much more versatile unit, and people would most likely be able to use more squads in place of broadsides and hammerheads.

what would be the point of hammerheads and broadsides then sir?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-12-2005, 17:09
But the Pulserifle is capable of so much more than just effective anti-infantry.

Compare it against Light Vehicles to a 5 man Devastator Squad armed with Heavy Bolters. The same number of shots, for a cheaper price. Landspeeders, Vypers, Sentinels and indeed anything with AV11 or AV10 is in fairly deep trouble! And with the precise nature of the Battlesuit mounted special weapons, and the Railguns, you really don't need to worry about your troops taking down tanks. They are there for troop engagements, and little else!

TheShadow3s
15-12-2005, 17:44
I think it was agreed a long time ago that heavy weapons would not go with fire warriors ( certainely no railguns ) , maybe a rail rifle but that would be max ( would like emp launcher extra ammo for carbine , but then again you would get a unit that too effective and all marine players would wine it is overpowered )

Flame Boy
15-12-2005, 19:58
Maybe for the standard Tau Fire Warrior team the concept of a large, bulky weapon to drag around on engagements is frowned upon? If you're jumping in and out of Devilfish carriers in mobile combat, maybe the concept of a large, cumbersome weapon seems somewhat redundant when in theory you can call in your own artillery-barrage-strapped-to-a-tank?

Sure, that's not army list rationalising, but I can see why a Tau soldier would find lugging a lascannon (or in the case of the Tau, a heavy pulse cannon? :p ) around as tiring and wasteful.

Hoshi No Koe
15-12-2005, 20:40
I wonder if any change will be made to the carbine. I don't think so however, although the option of firing alternate grenades would be spiffy. It's true that it's hard for the carbine to compete with the pulse rifle in 4th ed. However back when I was playtesting the homemade FE list with Kurze we had units of FW with carbines as the primary troops and they did have some interesting uses.
In light of the new rules as far as we know them, I can see some use for medium sized units of carbine armed FW used as support units and an effective way of using EMP grenades. A unit of 8 FW with carbines and EMP grenades is small enough to be relatively cheap points wise, and with the mobility afforded by the carbines can fire effectively on the move. It can operate around larger firebase FW units and could be considered small enough of a threat to be overlooked by confident opponents. This gives them the opportunity to occasionaly pin a dangerous unit or assist in pinning a unit that you really want to pin with some help from some markerlights.
Failing that, the unit is cheap enough to act as a speed bump should the need arise or go after heavy tanks like LR or liths that are getting too close and which have been able to avoid or neutralize your rail guns.
Rail guns are the king of AT weapons but you won't have a lot of them and I've suffered enough from it due to my broadsides being taken out or left out of usefull Los often enough. Same goes with the Hammerhead which can get stunned or taken out just when you need it most. Having a back up unit that can take these tanks out could be invaluable in some situations.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-12-2005, 21:19
But with the Seeker Missiles, these can be fired regardless of whether the vehicle is stunned, shaken, or immobilised. Indeed, only it's destruction can stop them!

And bear in mind that for the purpose of where the shot is coming from with Armour Values, it's the position of the launch vehicle, not the ML that counts. Which means mid-game you really ought to be able to strike side or rear armour, adding to the missiles chances of knacking the target.

NorthernMike
16-12-2005, 00:40
I think that all carbine firewarrior units may have a place in a Tau army. Not everyone plays Mech Tau, and maybe a unit of these guys would be useful for advancing on an objective, or moving to support an offensive on a key point. I could see a use for it, in a supporting role to 2 or 3 reg warrior units.

I already think that the markerlight upgrade is like having a heavy weapon option in a Firewarrior unit. I mean, it is like a missile launcher, that is cheaper than what other armies pay for it, well sorta if you spread the cost out amoung all the FW units. Plus the bonus it can add to a Railgun or plasma shot is pretty priceless even if you don't use the seekers.

blitz589
16-12-2005, 01:00
I wonder if the new piranhas could take seeker missiels, cause that combined with tetrahs would allow for some quick death of tanks. Considering the piranhas would have side armor with the seeker missiel, then it could kill another tank with its fusuon blaster.

GodHead
16-12-2005, 01:17
I think the carbines are going to be just fine in the new Codex. Tau are going to have the most options for pinning tests of ANY of the armies in 40k. Carbines on Fire Warriors and Gun Drones, Rail Rifles on Pathfinders and Sniper Drones. Combined with the new rules for Markerlights, you could put a pinning test on every enemy unit every turn of the game, often with (potentially very large) leadership modifiers.

It's going to be crazy, advancing on the Tau will be a nightmare, even for Marines. Carbines are going to be very useful if you wish to go this route. I figure I'll have 2 units with just carbines as a forward element myself, whereas I'd never do that in the current rules.

Frobo
16-12-2005, 01:28
Hey, I must have missed the 'New' Markerlight rules, would you mind filling me in?
Heck I love makerlights already...so if they make em better.... SWEET.

Captain Stuart
16-12-2005, 02:37
An 8 man FCW squad with carbines would be decent for a "counter assault" unit. Use them as mobile support for static squads with rifles. Alternatively use them as anti-vehicle with EMP as mentioned above.

I think markerlights are going to work better with gun drone squads than a FCW squad with carbines, but sometimes your markerlights don't have many options.

GodHead
16-12-2005, 05:46
Frobo, check the rumor roundup. Each Markerlight hit can now be used to:

a.) Increase an entire units BS by 1 against the target
b.) Lower the targets cover save by 1 for an entire units shooting
c.) Provide a -1 Ld penalty on any Pinning tests taken by the target unit caused by an entire units shooting

These can be combined together, so if you get 4 Markerlight hits against an enemy unit, you can use 2 of them to give a unit of Fire Warriors with Carbines BS5 (+1 and +1), lower the enemies cover save by 1 and put a -1 Ld penalty on their Pinning test. Or skip the cover save one and give them a -2 Ld penalty, or skip the BS enhancement and give the target a -4 Ld penalty, or use 4 units with +1 to hit, or any combination you choose.

So with these new Markerlight rules, combined with the plethora of Pinning weapons the Tau have available, I could realistically see at least 1 Marine unit pinned every turn of the game. Throw enough Ld tests at them, especially with big Ld modifiers, and they'll fail some.

Achilles
16-12-2005, 08:17
consider though howmany markerlight hits u have to get of first before u can use any of those modifiers. but the option is there, true.

just a shame u cant pin my forward storming berserkers... :D (personally i believe there r far to many fearless units in 40K)

Lanfiex
16-12-2005, 08:18
you forgot to add

d) pass target piority (i so hope this lets us shoot ICs if we can get a markerlight hit from a near unit to the IC)
e) launch seeker missle hits on 2+ ignores cover saves

Lanfiex
16-12-2005, 08:20
just a shame u cant pin my forward storming berserkers... :D (personally i believe there r far to many fearless units in 40K)

but all those who where fearless from having high LDs is no longer fearless and they shall know fear!

Achilles
16-12-2005, 08:36
but all those who where fearless from having high LDs is no longer fearless and they shall know fear!

Hehehe still wont stop my berserkers though :evilgrin: Blood for the Blood God... Skulls for the throne!!!!! (getting a bit carried away here) now i DO fear those railrifles if they get some better rules....

geoffkemp
16-12-2005, 08:55
LOL,

Looks like I`m going to have to try the 12 FW carbine squad to see how it works. Certainly got some interesting options now IMO.

My path finders certinly got moe interesting, other than addtional wounds for the guys carrying rail-rifles.

Mars
16-12-2005, 10:39
Hm, personally I'm thinking about small units of 6 Fire Warriors with Carbines, standing in front of my lines: they'll be to weak to get shot, but the enemy will have to charge them to get around them. They'd make for pretty good speed bumbs.

If only I could take more Troop choices... (2 units of 20 Kroot, 2 units of 12 Fire Warriors, and plenty of cheap, small units of Kroot and Fire Warriors).

TheShadow3s
16-12-2005, 12:40
Markers are going to own they are the heavy weapons of the tau actually don't know any other amry without specialised unit that can drop someones cover save imagine you shoot the mapart in cover with markes while other army's shell them out of there , while the tau cna go on wrecking havoc with their tanks
you jsut got to love it :D )