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Nuada
03-04-2009, 14:18
OK i'm completely new to High Elves, but i'd like to start an army of them. I've played against them quite a few times, my HE opponent takes alot of chariots and dragons, so i was after something different. I want to try out an infantry based High Elf army, i prefer this sort of army. At first i didn't intend to take so many multiple units, but that's how it's turned out.

LORD - Prince, GW, Armour Caledor(2+AS) Vambraces Defence(reroll AS, 4+ward save), Talisman Loec (1x/game reroll hits/wnds, then take wnd) - 252
HERO - Mage (lvl 2) , ring fury (pwr lvl3-2d6 str4 magic missile) - 175
HERO - Mage (lvl 2) , dispel scroll x 2 - 175
HERO - Mage (lvl 2) , Jewel Dusk (+1 PD), Staff of Solidity (ignore results 1st miscast) - 170

CORE - 10 archers - 110
CORE - 10 archers - 110

SPEC - 12 Swordmasters (6 wide) , full cmd - War Banner - 230
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters (6 wide) , full cmd - Gem Courage - 220
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters (6 wide) , full cmd - 210
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters (6 wide) , std, mus - 198

x4 RARE - 4 Repeating Bolt Throwers - 400

total = 2,250

72 models (plus 4 RBTs)
8 Deployment
9 PD, plus one bound item pwr lvl 3
5 DD, plus two dispel scrolls

Do you think this stands a chance? I can see it's going to suffer against armies with lots of missile weapons, but i was thinking of taking out those enemy units first (44 shots) with a possible help from curse arrow attraction spell.

So far i've got one High Elf Mage figure, and a High Elf Noble/Prince. I'm at the "planning before i buy" stage. The list looks a bit simple, do you think it's a good idea to take dragon princes instead of 12 swordmasters? I'm a bit reluctant to take Dragon Princes, because i know they attract alot of attention from war machines.

I've never actually used a High Elf army before, so any guidance is appreciated :)

Malorian
03-04-2009, 14:37
Ah, one of these lists ;)

The thing you're going to have to worry with this list is enemy shooting. The other issue is that 48 swordmasters are fairly expensive (money wise) so you might want to make sure you want to go with this kind of specialty list before you go out and buy it.

WhiteKnight
03-04-2009, 14:38
Alright so since this is a footslogger list (hey, 80+% of high elves are footsloggers) we'll probably need to get something fast to stall the enemy. Eagles are your friend in this case. Having 2 bolt throwers and 2 eagles will be great for a list like this. Heck, maybe even drop a mage to get a noble with reaver bow on eagle so you have 3 eagles to hunt down the enemy, one of which can even handle cavalry. I say keep the swordmasters because for all of the points together, you can get about 4 units of 5 DPs, which will cost a lot of money and I don't want you to spend $200 on 1 specific type of unit. I say maybe mix some units together and have 2 blocks of 21 swordmasters deployed 7x3 and try to get spearmen or even another unit of elite infantry. Remember, you can always switch elite infantry because they have the same points value. Check out the High Elf Tactica for some more help from us, and a rundown on how high elf units work.

sroblin
03-04-2009, 15:13
Generally speaking, you might want to consider trying out a few different units just for variety; the other (even infantry only) options besides swordsman are effective too. Though I totally see how this could be a very saphery-themed list. Of course Dragon Princes are good, I would advise taking them just because they add tactical options to the list as well as being quite effective! Yes, they attract war machine fire, but so do Swordmasters! If you take the Dragon Princes, I would definitely suggest getting an eagler or two to help deal with warmachines one way or another.

Nonetheless, a number of smaller things I think might enhance the army (or save you points.)

-Your level 2 cannot have both the Staff of Solidity and Jewel of Dusk, they're both arcane items.
- I would consider dropping the third level 2 and replacing him with the banner of sorcery. That will give you a similar number of power dice for a much cheaper price, and give your other mages more power to play with for their spells. For magic items, take the Jewel of Dusk matched with a dispel scroll. Alternatively, you could move the ring of fury (which is an enchanted item, not arcane) onto your prince, and free your first level 2 to take other arcane goodies.
-Even a single eagle might help you slow down attacking cavalry enough to buy you a round of shooting. Plus it will save you points for other goodies. Alternatiely, you could use shadow warriors for a similar role; it saves you the rare slot and even nets you a little shooting.
-Banners! Lion banner (or the more pricey but more versatile Banner of Balance) would help you prep up a swordmaster unit to face fear causers (and you know they're going to be outnumbered by everything they face!) Aforementioned Banner of Sorcery is excellent value. Banner of Ellyrian is a steal for the points; increases your tactical options by allowing your swordmasters to move through terrain, also can make them harder to hit! Arcane protection is ok as well. Also, equipping a champ with the amulet of light is probably worthwhile if you expect to encounter undead or wood elves with any frequency.
-Might consider replacing Prince with a BSB noble, possibly on horseback. They can still be quite strong defensively with their magic items, though they will hit less strong. And much cheaper overall. You lose the +1 leadership, but you gain the re-roll. If you did that, you could combine two of the level 2s into an archamage.)

Overall, I would look for ways to increase the numbers of your rank and file, cause you 1100 points of troops (and expensive ones at that) and 1150 in characters and warmachines, finding ways to increase the number of bodies on the field. Also, preparing tactics to dealw with enemy fire is important to, 44 shots will not be enough alone, though it does help. (20 bows S3 bows, 24 S4 bolts at long range kill 12 unarmoured T3 archers a turn, or 1 warmachine crew on average. Less if in cover.) Perhaps you could use a stretched out screen of shadow warriors? Could be useful for redirecting enemy charges too. Just some thoughts there.

Nuada
03-04-2009, 20:05
Thanks for all the advice, really appreciate that :D Thanks sroblin, that's alot of good advice you gave me there!!

I think i'll reduce the cost of my characters, and take the banner of sorcerery as you suggested. I can see how shadow warriors would be useful, but i might take some for when i expand this army. I've attempted to increase the model count.

Here's what i'm thinking now;

HERO - Noble BSB- GW, lgt armour, Battle Banner- 200
HERO - Mage lvl 2 - Jewel of Dusk, dispel scroll - 170
HERO - Mage lvl 2 - dispel scroll - 155

CORE - 10 Archers - 110
CORE - 10 Archers - 110

SPEC - 6 Dragon Princes, mus, std - 210
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters, full cmd, Banner of Sorcery - 260
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters, full cmd - 210
SPEC - 12 Swordmasters, full cmd - 210

x4 RARE - 4 Repeating Bolt Throwers - 400

That's only 525 points spent on characters, a saving of 247 points. So far i've spent a total of 2035, leaving 215.

Possible options include; take a noble on an eagle with the reaver bow as a march blocker, get some spearmen with a rank bonus.

I prefer the spearmen, for 214 points it would be;
x21 Spearmen, full command.... i might put the BSB here, in the centre so swordmaster units can benefit from a break test reroll

previous model count = 72
new model count = 86 (mainly because of changing one SM unit to DPs)



For a colour scheme I'm considering doing the whole army with golden armour, and red trim. A very regal/noble looking elven host. Maybe they are the personal bodyguard to important diplomat, and travel with him/her to distant lands, so they have to impress their potential allies. The archers will match the armoured warriors with a flowing red tabard, golden trim. If i do this i'll avoid doing red gems, maybe the contrasting green.


An observation about Dragon Princes. 6 Dragon Princes (without a champion) costs the same as 12 swordmasters (full cmd). Both have the same hitting power (excluding the horses, and with my example SM's have 1 extra attack), but the swordmasters are more powerfull in a prolonged fight. They have the same unit strength, but swordmaster have a rank bonus at the start of combat.
Obviously Dragon Princes have the advantage with charging. However, you don't really need to charge because of ASF (apart from chariots, which you can shoot with RBT)
The main advantage is the armour save with Dragon Princes, but they are more susceptible to war machines.

Just wondering, which do people prefer to use?

Desert Rain
03-04-2009, 20:32
With the aditional points there's a lot of things you can do, here are some suggestions:

* Take another unit of Dragon Princes, I tried that a couple of weeks ago and it's great!

* Take a unit of spearmen for you BSB and it gives you another good infantry block as well as more numbers

* Take some chariots, a couple of them will significantly improve your infantry line.

If I were you I would consider dropping a RBT sou you can have an Eagle.

W A L 5 H Y
03-04-2009, 20:43
Looks ok, get a couple of eagles in there instead of two of your throwers. Saving you 100pts.

I also agree with taking another unit of dragon princes. Maybe a couple of lion chariots? They really are nasty

Nuada
03-04-2009, 20:54
* Take some chariots, a couple of them will significantly improve your infantry line.

I do like the chariot models, but i'm trying to avoid taking them. The main reason is i play against a HE army fairly regular, and it's slowly turning into his list :D Infact, put in a dragon and it would be almost identical


I am tempted by your "drop a RBT for an eagle" idea though. I do just happen to have an eagle lying around, that someone gave to me a while ago.

That gives an extra 51 points for a possible;
War Banner to either SMs or DPs (20)
and Lion Banner to SMs (25)
and upgrade BSB's armour from lgt armour to dragon armour (4)
...total 2,248

Woodsman
03-04-2009, 20:58
Well, I don't play high elves, but, I thought it was great to see someone (the first someone, for me) who didn't use Dragon princes or a dragon...

Are there no other Helf units???

I think phoenix guard would fit in with your colour scheme/fluff very well (awesome models!!) and you can grab a fear causer+some durability. The eagles would increase variety and tactical options as well!

Spearmen seem to do pretty darn good against a lot of stuff and would increase model count or serve as a mage bunker perchance?

You don't have to follow the crowd...

Cheers, Woody.

sroblin
03-04-2009, 22:14
Interesting changes to the list; and I like the sound of the color scheme!

Just a few little things with your revised list:
Your BSB has only a 6+ save and is going to get whacked, even by basic troops directing attacks. When you decide to give the BSB the Battle Banner, keeping him alive is more important then giving him great weapon attacks (and he is going to be targetted expressly that much more!) So the best choice is to do everything you can to give him a good armor save, which probably involves mounting him on a barded horse- he can still join infantry units this way.
You might still want to consider dropping a magic item on the mage with the scroll.



Obviously Dragon Princes have the advantage with charging. However, you don't really need to charge because of ASF (apart from chariots, which you can shoot with RBT)
Just wondering, which do people prefer to use?

It's a good observation about their similar capabilities for almost the same cost, but the reason yous see lots more Dragon Princes in 'power' lists is that having the speed to choose your fights is more powerful. People know that Swordmasters are good, and so they aren't going to charge them if they can avoid it, negating some of the advantage of ASF. This forces the swordmaster heavy forces to advance across the field and get rained on with arrows. The Dragon Princes can get themselves the charge on turn 2, making their attacks count for more by using them more often. Of course, they'll be in trouble if they don't win.

I didn't advise taking the Dragon Princes because they're more powerful or necessary to win, I did because I think it's more fun to have variety in your forces and different tactical options (in this case, speed traded off for staying power.) However, there are still plenty of other good options in the list if you would rather not go the most common route. Hell, even Silver Helms perform their role in a sort of unspectacular way, and between White Lions, Spearmen, and Phoenix guard there's plenty of good infantry options.

bob_the_small
04-04-2009, 10:08
That new list is much better although you are going to get munched by enemy shooting!
Can I ask, what are your usual opponents?

Nuada
04-04-2009, 12:29
Your BSB has only a 6+ save and is going to get whacked, even by basic troops directing attacks.


This forces the swordmaster heavy forces to advance across the field and get rained on with arrows. The Dragon Princes can get themselves the charge on turn 2.

My idea with the BSB was to use offence as the best defence. Three str6 ASF hits, and he'll attempt to kill anything in base contact with him. I can see your logic though, i'm counting on rolling at least average, and it doesn't always happen that way.

If i go with the 2nd option of exchanging a RBT for an eagle i can upgrade his armour, and possibly take HW/sh, or a barded steed (i didn't want to have an awkward fit with a cavalry base and 20mm bases)




My concern with Dragon Princes is; in the example i've given (taking 6 DPs, and 12 swordmasters) the Dragon Princes charge is seriously weakened by losing one model, whereas the swordmasters can lose 7 models until they reach the same disadvantage. Like you say though, i would prefer variety in my force, it just looks better on the field.


@bob_the_small; My usual opponents are Dwarfs, High Elves (but i don't think we'll fight HE v HE), Tomb Kings, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons, Vampires, a very seldom Empire and Dark Elves (both only once) ....and possibly lizardmen coming up. I've only ever played my Orcs against these opponents so far. Actually maybe Orcs as well might be on the cards (not had a game against him yet)

WhiteLion
04-04-2009, 14:19
@bob_the_small; My usual opponents are Dwarfs, High Elves (but i don't think we'll fight HE v HE), Tomb Kings, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons, Vampires, a very seldom Empire and Dark Elves (both only once) ....and possibly lizardmen coming up. I've only ever played my Orcs against these opponents so far. Actually maybe Orcs as well might be on the cards (not had a game against him yet)

Definitely an interesting and effective list against several of those opponents. Dwarves and and a shooty TK army might give you some difficulty, but WoC, daemons, and vamps will have a tough time dealing with those SM.

sroblin
04-04-2009, 14:53
My idea with the BSB was to use offence as the best defence. Three str6 ASF hits, and he'll attempt to kill anything in base contact with him. I can see your logic though, i'm counting on rolling at least average, and it doesn't always happen that way.

I get you're reasoning, but even the averages here are pretty stiff. 2 out of your 3 attacks will hit on average- and then you need to roll to wound and armor saves. Against rank and file with a low armor save, that's still 1.66 kills on average, but that leaves potentially one guy on the corner who can attack. Against enemy characters, who quite possibly have WS6 and 2+ armor saves, maybe even T5 (Daemons, Vampires, Tomb Kings, Dwarves etc.), the number of wounds on average will probably be more like a 1 a turn. In terms of CR, you're waying 1.66 wounds on average at best, versus 3.5 on for the battle banner on average regardless of the opponent (of course, it is better to kill opponents so they can't attack back...) You could give him heavy armor and a shield, so he could switch back and forth between the shield and the great weapon depending ont the situation. The BSB + great weapon combo might work out for you, I'm just saying that the offense-is-the-best-defense doesn't necessarily always workout when enemy characters are involved.


That's a good point about the Dragon Princes; I always think it's better to take at least units of 6 so they can afford to lose at least one. Another issue is that swordmasters can pack in more S5 attacks by going 7-wide versus 5-wide opponents, whereas the cavalry bases on Dragon Princes are too wide to give them additional attacks for having a 7th horse in the formation.

Champion89
04-04-2009, 21:39
Well, I don't play high elves, but, I thought it was great to see someone (the first someone, for me) who didn't use Dragon princes or a dragon...

Are there no other Helf units???

You don't have to follow the crowd...

Cheers, Woody.

There are just some units that an army has to take. DP are that unit for some people. For me it's the Sword Masters. I'm sure there is something in your army book that would make your army feel naked without. But if it makes you feel any better the High Elves I'm building are indeed without a Dragon and Dragon Princes. And the army is no push over either.

Nuada I love all the Sword Masters, but you got to shield your unit with the banner of sorcery. It is going to be the main target, and once your BoS is gone your mages wont be too much. That extra 2 PD really helps. With 4 RBTs some people might call it cheesy. I would suggest dropping one and adding an eagle and you should get in a unit of shadow warriors too assist the eagle. A 18 man unit of spearmen instead of one of your archer units might help out too.

Ultimo ninja
05-04-2009, 02:53
I suggest buying warrior boxes an modding them into sword masters....much cheaper, not too hard to do.

slingersam
05-04-2009, 08:41
Looks ok, get a couple of eagles in there instead of two of your throwers. Saving you 100pts.

I also agree with taking another unit of dragon princes. Maybe a couple of lion chariots? They really are nasty

I was just going to say this, it looks like they are trying to give you another high elf cookie cutter list. I would think some phoenix guard would help this list out greatly just because it allows you to have a little defense in your list so your not so vulnerable to shooting and magic.

rabitshadow
05-04-2009, 11:50
Drop two of the Repeater Bolt Throwers and get a unit of Shadow Warriors and an Eagle possibly two, these should act as great march interceptors, and as someone said before four Repeater Bolt Throwers maybe throwned upon and dubbed "cheesy".

Nuada
06-04-2009, 14:29
I would suggest dropping one RBT and adding an eagle and you should get in a unit of shadow warriors too assist the eagle.

Funny you should say that, i rewrote the list before i read the replies. I'm now thinking;

Noble BSB - Hvy arm, sh, Battle Banner -196
Mage lvl 2 - Jewel Dusk, dispel scroll - 170
Mage lvl 2 - dispel scroll - 155

10 Archers -110
22 Spearmen, full cmd - 223

6 Dragon Princes, mus, std - 210
12 Swordmasters, full cmd, Banner Sorcery - 260
13 Swordmasters, full cmd, War Banner - 245
13 Swordmasters, full cmd, Lion Banner - 250
5 Shadow Warriors - 80

1 Giant Eagle - 50
3 RBT - 300

I think i'll paint these up, maybe change minor things around from game to game, and see how they work.

@rabitshadow... i play against High Elves fairly often, and he always takes at least 4 bolt throwers, i don't mind at all. I won't be using the elves for any tournaments, just friendly games :)

I'm going to use the idea that these Elves are visiting the Old World, investigating some of their old ruined cities. So the bases will be ruins to suggest this.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
06-04-2009, 20:27
I think that not taking a Lord is a mistake. Or so I have been told/experienced. Good list though. Hope you dont run into too many chariots though :S You might make some enemies with all the swordmasters ;) Someone needs sacred incense to try to keep the elites alive from missiles. that with some magic and either the banner of arcane protection or the amulet of fire for either a champion or a hero and you're set. But thats just one guys opinion
Have fun :D

Champion89
07-04-2009, 03:51
I think that not taking a Lord is a mistake. Or so I have been told/experienced. Good list though. Hope you dont run into too many chariots though :S You might make some enemies with all the swordmasters ;) Someone needs sacred incense to try to keep the elites alive from missiles. that with some magic and either the banner of arcane protection or the amulet of fire for either a champion or a hero and you're set. But thats just one guys opinion
Have fun :D

A good opinion at that. Sword masters are worthless if they are just a pile of bodies. they need to be around to make the piles.

but i like your list i think it would be fun to play or play against

SiNNiX
07-04-2009, 04:21
Good list, mate.

g0ddy
07-04-2009, 21:20
In regards to your second list...

I cant stress this enough... Taking a Elf BSB on foot with a magic standard is a BAD idea. Where do the characters go? Swordmasters have very limited use for command, I would try and drop these wherever possible unless it is necessitated by the need for a magic banner. Try and squeeze out more points for a horse for the BSB and more dragon princes?


I suggest buying warrior boxes an modding them into sword masters....much cheaper, not too hard to do.

Are you mad? Did you just suggest taking one of the worst plastic kits in existence and trying to model them as something else?!?!?!?!?!

Hell youd be better off starting with a box of chaos warriors!

~ zilla