PDA

View Full Version : Couple of Lizardmen Questions



jax40kplyr1
03-04-2009, 16:56
Couple of Lizardmen questions that have cropped up - anyone's input appreciated:

1. Running a Slann list . . . casting Spirit of the Forge on a Runelord on Anvil. The FAQ states it's 2d6 hits, but doesn't specify that it is a magic missile, per Burning Iron spell. From my take on it, the anvil would not provide a 4+ ward save.

2. Portent of Far cast on an EOTG. Burning Alignment would be able to reroll 1's to wound, as well as impact hit damage?

3. Large Targets can see over combat's correct?

4. How would you work out victory points for a steg? Considering it's not a warmachine but US 10, does that mean it needs to take 6 wounds from either crew or steg to be under half?

5. Does Soul of Stone allow you to reroll double 1 miscasts? Someone mentioned it states under that miscast that no item (like infernal puppet) or special ability allows that one to be rerolled.

EvC
03-04-2009, 18:04
1) If Anvil provides 4+ ward against missiles, then you get no ward from this spell.
2) Correct!
3) Correct!
4) US has nothing to do with it. If you deal half wounds to the Stegadon itself, you get half points.
5) Not sure this item is, so won't comment...

Malorian
03-04-2009, 18:33
Army book overrule the main rule book. So yes the soul stone lets you reroll.

Shamfrit
03-04-2009, 18:39
2. Portent of Far cast on an EOTG. Burning Alignment would be able to reroll 1's to wound, as well as impact hit damage?

I am actually surprised I didn't think of doing this considerably...quicker than before now - thanks for the idea! But as EvC says, the unit/model/Engine are part and parcel of the same unit, so all machinations coming from it benefit from Portent's Re-rolls, making it very very deadly when you use it on a Warspear Steg.

I was under the impression however that Soul of Stone does not prevent a double 1 miscast result, as it's clear that nothing ever prevents this effect, as per the description.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 18:43
Well all it says in the soul stone rule is that:

"The Mage-Priest may reroll results on the Mscast table. He must accept the reroll result."

Seems clear cut to me. Since the army book is suppose to overrule the main book it would seem to me that this would be one of those cases.

If they wanted it to not work on doubles 1s they would have said so. (Although I guess then we get into 'just because it says you can't doesn't mean you can'.)

(Personally I don't care as I would never spend 50 points on that ability anyway.)

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 18:56
Well all it says in the soul stone rule is that:

"The Mage-Priest may reroll results on the Mscast table. He must accept the reroll result."

Seems clear cut to me. Since the army book is suppose to overrule the main book it would seem to me that this would be one of those cases.

If they wanted it to not work on doubles 1s they would have said so. (Although I guess then we get into 'just because it says you can't doesn't mean you can'.)

(Personally I don't care as I would never spend 50 points on that ability anyway.)

find the line that says the armybook overrules the rulebook.

double 1 says no special rules or items can help the character...since all items and special rules are in the armybooks they would then overrule this making the point null.

a double 1 on the miscast table can't be stopped by any item/special rule/ there is no conflict here between the miscast and soul of stone. miscast says can't use special rule. soul of stone is special rule
it can't be used.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 19:01
If the army books didn't override the main rule book then vampires wouldn't be able to recast IoN/vanhels/raise dead, skink priests on terradons wouldn't be able to join units of terradons, and so on.

There doesn't need to be a line for it because it's obvious. One set of rules comes after the other so the most recent one takes precedence.

Actually, come to think of it, no where does it say the 7th ed rules overrules the 6th ed ones... (get my point?)

Lord Yawgmoth
03-04-2009, 19:01
Well, the wording of snake eyes on the miscast table makes it pretty clear that once you get that effect, nothing will ever prevent it.


.....but the rules-manager guy went against that in the most recent batch of Lizardmen questions, so.....

I don't think there is a clear cut answer.

EDIT: Malorian, i think what stripsteak is trying to get at, is that #2 says nothing will save you, I would hope that an item that tries to override this rule would at least say: "Please note, that this may actually save you from a #2"

Nurgling Chieftain
03-04-2009, 19:02
While I'm a long-time proponent of the argument that the army book overrides the rulebook when they're strictly speaking in conflict, I don't think this is such a case; once the snake-eyes is rolled, you're done for.

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 19:06
If the army books didn't override the main rule book then vampires wouldn't be able to recast IoN/vanhels/raise dead, skink priests on terradons wouldn't be able to join units of terradons, and so on.

There doesn't need to be a line for it because it's obvious. One set of rules comes after the other so the most recent one takes precedence.

Actually, come to think of it, no where does it say the 7th ed rules overrules the 6th ed ones... (get my point?)

thats because it's a new addition 7th and 6th aren't related. the rules for checkers don't have to say they override the rules for chess. they are different games.

the armybooks expand on the rulebook. the rules for allowing you to cast those are in the armybooks. they don't overwrite anything in the rulebook they expand on it in specific situations.

VC are still limted to single cast attempts of casting. in addition they are allowed to cast IoN as many times as they want as an additional allowance etc.

again same thing for the terradon joining the units, its an additional allowance it doesn't overwrite anything in the book it adds to it.

the slann ability lets you reroll on the miscast table following the normal rules in the rulebook. the rules in the rulebook say you can't use abilities to save yourself from a double 1. therefore the ability doesn't help you.

N810
03-04-2009, 19:10
Does it say anywhere that you have to roll all of your casting dice at once ???
(I am asking because I have no idea)

because if you don't you could reroll a 1 before you roll snake eyes (double ones)

Bac5665
03-04-2009, 19:12
Ah circular reasoning. The Slaan can re-roll the 2 because the 2 hasn't been applied yet. You can't apply the result until you know which result to apply, and the restriction against protective items is part of the result.

Look at it from the other side. In order for the anti-protective-item clause to come into effect, the roll of 2 has to be applied. Thus, it must be the final result of the miscast. With the Slaan's ability, we don't know the final result until he rolls, or elects not to roll.

If, in the general miscast rules, there was a provision preventing the altering of a result 2, then that rule would come into play. But that's not the case here. You can only apply rules that have come into effect, and the 2 result doesn't come into effect until the result is final.

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 19:12
Does it say anywhere that you have to roll all of your casting dice at once ???
(I am asking because I have no idea)

because if you don't you could reroll a 1 before you roll snake eyes (double ones)

yes pg 107 you declare the number of dice you are using before you roll

Lord Yawgmoth
03-04-2009, 19:14
Does it say anywhere that you have to roll all of your casting dice at once ???
(I am asking because I have no idea)

because if you don't you could reroll a 1 before you roll snake eyes (double ones)

Its not casting dice, its the 2d6 on the miscast table.

and in the book it tells you to (in so many words) "for 2d6, pick up 2 dice and roll them"

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 19:14
Ah circular reasoning. The Slaan can re-roll the 2 because the 2 hasn't been applied yet. You can't apply the result until you know which result to apply, and the restriction against protective items is part of the result.

Look at it from the other side. In order for the anti-protective-item clause to come into effect, the roll of 2 has to be applied. Thus, it must be the final result of the miscast. With the Slaan's ability, we don't know the final result until he rolls, or elects not to roll.

If, in the general miscast rules, there was a provision preventing the altering of a result 2, then that rule would come into play. But that's not the case here. You can only apply rules that have come into effect, and the 2 result doesn't come into effect until the result is final.

it's not a forced reroll though. it's a choice to reroll. the Slann has to roll and get a the miscast result before deciding to reroll. getting a 2 then prevents you from using any ability to save yourself

Bac5665
03-04-2009, 19:59
Your so close, but not quite there. There are 3 steps:

1) miscast

2) Roll on chart

3) apply result

The Slaan's power is part of step 2. You can't move on to step 3 until Step 2 is completely done. The anti-preventive abilities clause is part of step 3.

EvC
03-04-2009, 20:01
I think the double-one miscast is referring to items that protect from the effects of the miscast, and as Bac shows, you don't know the effect of the miscast until you apply the final result, so a re-roll (or ability to ignore/ modify a miscast result) would be allowable. But once you apply that miscast result, nothing can save you.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 20:03
thats because it's a new addition 7th and 6th aren't related. the rules for checkers don't have to say they override the rules for chess. they are different games.

the armybooks expand on the rulebook. the rules for allowing you to cast those are in the armybooks. they don't overwrite anything in the rulebook they expand on it in specific situations.

VC are still limted to single cast attempts of casting. in addition they are allowed to cast IoN as many times as they want as an additional allowance etc.

again same thing for the terradon joining the units, its an additional allowance it doesn't overwrite anything in the book it adds to it.

the slann ability lets you reroll on the miscast table following the normal rules in the rulebook. the rules in the rulebook say you can't use abilities to save yourself from a double 1. therefore the ability doesn't help you.

It says in the main rule book each wizard can only cast each spell once, yet the vampire book overrides it.

It says in the main rule book that flying mounts can not join units of fliers, yet the lizardmen book overrides it.

Army books certainly DO override the main rule book. You can call it "an additional allowance" all you want, but a rose by any other name is still a rose, and in these cases something the main rule book forbid is being allowed, thus it is being overrulled.


In this case I can see it argued either way, but given the history of the last couple of rule books I can easily see this being just another case were core rules are changed.

Shamfrit
03-04-2009, 20:04
Cheers Bac, that reasoning works well enough for me (wasn't sure before.)

So I switch my vote for Stone working.

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 20:19
Your so close, but not quite there. There are 3 steps:

1) miscast

2) Roll on chart

3) apply result

The Slaan's power is part of step 2. You can't move on to step 3 until Step 2 is completely done. The anti-preventive abilities clause is part of step 3.

where in the book are these steps? for every other reroll i can think of you have to determine the effect of the first roll before doing the reroll. hatred you must first miss, BSB you must first fail the test. true the reseult of the second roll is what stands but the initial roll is what determines the reroll

in this case the initial roll determines that you can not use a special ability to change it. so you can't reroll.


I think the double-one miscast is referring to items that protect from the effects of the miscast, and as Bac shows, you don't know the effect of the miscast until you apply the final result, so a re-roll (or ability to ignore/ modify a miscast result) would be allowable. But once you apply that miscast result, nothing can save you.

but thats not what the resutl says the result says you can't use any rule or item to save the wizard. you can't know to reroll until you know the initial result of the roll.


It says in the main rule book each wizard can only cast each spell once, yet the vampire book overrides it.

It says in the main rule book that flying mounts can not join units of fliers, yet the lizardmen book overrides it.

Army books certainly DO override the main rule book. You can call it "an additional allowance" all you want, but a rose by any other name is still a rose, and in these cases something the main rule book forbid is being allowed, thus it is being overrulled.


In this case I can see it argued either way, but given the history of the last couple of rule books I can easily see this being just another case were core rules are changed.

is not changing it's adding into for specific situations. the rules for VS become any wizard can attempt to cast a spell once, unless that spell is IoN.
same for the terrados. the initial rulebook doesn't say any wizard can only attempt to cast once, items and special rules can not change this. the initial ruling is still in place there are just new caveats. that how the entire BRB is written. early parts of the books specify the general rules and later parts of the book clarify how those rules work in specific situations. they aren't overwriting the early rules they are clarifying them.

you are still bound by all the rules in the initial rulebook. The rules in the book say a 2 can't be changed by an item or special rule. and nowhere in the lizard man item does it make an allowance for it to do so. you are still following all the rules for the item and book.

*edit*
Through any method that would allow you to reroll the miscast it should be applied consistently for any ability, and completely negate the line in the miscast. If armybooks 'overwrite' that rule then every single item or special abilty would work since they are all in armybooks. if the Slanns ability is part of rolling on the chart then so is anyone else ability or item that would affect miscast result so they would all occur before the result was determined and would make the specific restriction against rules and items void and pointless.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 20:24
is not changing it's adding into for specific situations. the rules for VS become any wizard can attempt to cast a spell once, unless that spell is IoN.
same for the terrados. the initial rulebook doesn't say any wizard can only attempt to cast once, items and special rules can not change this. the initial ruling is still in place there are just new caveats. that how the entire BRB is written. early parts of the books specify the general rules and later parts of the book clarify how those rules work in specific situations. they aren't overwriting the early rules they are clarifying them.

you are still bound by all the rules in the initial rulebook. The rules in the book say a 2 can't be changed by an item or special rule. and nowhere in the lizard man item does it make an allowance for it to do so. you are still following all the rules for the item and book.

Rules don't list exceptions when there aren't any. When you can only cast a spell once per phase there's no reason to say 'even with items or powers' because there simply is no exception. Then vampires come along and change all that.

Rules WERE changed.

EvC
03-04-2009, 20:26
The rules in the book say a 2 can't be changed by an item or special rule. and nowhere in the lizard man item does it make an allowance for it to do so. you are still following all the rules for the item and book.

That bit in bold- you've made it up. The rulebook makes no commentary on whether a miscast result can be modified, just that if a wizard suffers the effect of that miscast result, he is dead, and nothing can save him. It's still a difficult question that GW could rule either way, but there is a distinction.

Malorian- you're right in general, but there's a difference between these situations. By your reasoning, you can use ward saves against the double-one miscast, because the army book says you have a ward save and can use it, and the rulebook says you can't. So which do we follow? The main rule book, because the language there is so authoritative :)

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 20:30
That bit in bold- you've made it up. The rulebook makes no commentary on whether a miscast result can be modified, just that if a wizard suffers the effect of that miscast result, he is dead, and nothing can save him. It's still a difficult question that GW could rule either way, but there is a distinction.

the rules say he is annihilated and removed as a casualty immediately "regardless of any protective magic item or special rule he might have".

so once you roll the 2 he is immediatly removed regardless of any special rules. it's a special rule that would allow him to change the result and special rules are ignored in this case.

stripsteak
03-04-2009, 20:38
Rules don't list exceptions when there aren't any. When you can only cast a spell once per phase there's no reason to say 'even with items or powers' because there simply is no exception. Then vampires come along and change all that.

Rules WERE changed.

you're allowed to do more if your special rules allow it but you are still bound by the original rules. your own special rules do not make the original rules different; they give you a specific allowance. but it doesn't even matter for this because it is a different point entirely. there is no conflict with VC every rule is still followed.

you were saying that rules of item in an armybook let you ignore the rules in the main BRB because it overwrites it. which is not what happens all. If there is a direct conflict between the BRB and rulebook then i could see siding with one or another until it is clarified by GW, but there is no rule saying the armybook is correct. and actually very few situations i can't think of any offhand that have direct conflicts.

Malorian
03-04-2009, 20:39
Obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Lord Zarkov
03-04-2009, 21:14
In the case of the VC spells the army book specifically gives the casters permission to overrule the rulebook, and a wording to specifically overrule the "nothing may save you" clause would be needed to ignore it, i.e. something along the lines of "... even if the result on the miscast table is a 2". Specific Rules > General Rules.

N810
04-04-2009, 00:13
Sorry OP there are no answers,
only more questions. :(

Dexter099
05-04-2009, 20:30
The roll of double one can not normally be changed unless specified by the item in question.

Spirit
06-04-2009, 01:07
Thought i would mention something as no one has picked up on it yet.




2. Portent of Far cast on an EOTG. Burning Alignment would be able to reroll 1's to wound, as well as impact hit damage?

Burning alignment: No because it happens at the start of the magic phase, before you can cast spells, portent of far only works on the player turn.
Impact hits: Yes, but not the dice to see how many hits you get, as this is not a "to hit, to wound, armour save or ward save"



4. How would you work out victory points for a steg? Considering it's not a warmachine but US 10, does that mean it needs to take 6 wounds from either crew or steg to be under half?

Re read the stegs rules. It says only the stegadon counts for VP's, so 3 wounds on the steg and no crew dead = half VP's. Or all 5 crew dead and 2 wounds on the steg = NO VP'S

Characters are treated seperatly from this rule, so 1 wound on the character on top gives you half VP's for the character.

40kdhs
06-04-2009, 01:12
Can a stegadon with skin priest join an infrantry unit?

thank you for answering my question.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-04-2009, 03:10
Can a stegadon with skin priest join an infrantry unit?...Is a skin priest someone who worships at strip clubs? :D

Anyway, yes, as a character on a non-flying mount he can join units just fine.

Spirit
06-04-2009, 12:18
Can a stegadon with skin priest join an infrantry unit?

thank you for answering my question.


...Is a skin priest someone who worships at strip clubs? :D

Anyway, yes, as a character on a non-flying mount he can join units just fine.

But note that he can still be picked out for shooting so there is often very little benefit.

EvC
06-04-2009, 16:01
Well, you make the unit he's in Stubborn for a start ;)

nosferatu1001
06-04-2009, 16:32
and it now causes terror, and gets impact hits....

Lord Yawgmoth
06-04-2009, 19:21
ooooh ooooh!
let me try:


And it gives the unit +10 US in addition to any extra ranks it might add.

Bac5665
06-04-2009, 19:23
I think the point was that it doesn't help the Stegadon at all.

dsw1
06-04-2009, 19:38
I think the point was that it doesn't help the Stegadon at all.

it gives the stegadon ranks ;)

Spirit
06-04-2009, 21:27
All of those bonuses except giving stubborn to the unit are achieved by moving the 2 units independantly and charging the same target. Only you have more options open to you.

EvC
06-04-2009, 23:16
In other words, refer to my last post for the reason why people put them in units.

Spirit
07-04-2009, 00:16
I still wouldnt do it lol. Unless it was a skink bsb with frenzy. 4 attacks on kroxigor hitting a big nasty chosen unit would be funny.

EvC
07-04-2009, 11:00
I've seen people do it, but I have no desire to do so myself...

FatOlaf
07-04-2009, 12:03
Interesting Sig you have there D, I presume I'm on there....

jax40kplyr1
08-04-2009, 12:59
So is the consensus of the arguments that either a) New army book rules & abilities can overrule the main rule book so Soul of Stone would allow you to reroll double 1s or b) The main rule book cannot be overriden by any rules and Soul of Stone doesn't allow it.

Two points:
1. I think the VC example is a great argument - the rulebook says you can't cast spells more than once. Their army book says they can (on Necromancy spells).

2. Why would they jhave a 50 point item that doesn't allow you to reroll the big one miscast? Just seems a waste then if you can't (although rolling that 3 or 4, which seems to happen every game now for me, is really great when the Slann burns over half his temple guard unit away).

I think the consensus from the folks where I play is that it allows you to reroll double 1s - otherwise you'd see me dropping that one and picked up the Cupped Hands item.

Bac5665
08-04-2009, 14:21
So is the consensus of the arguments that either a) New army book rules & abilities can overrule the main rule book so Soul of Stone would allow you to reroll double 1s or b) The main rule book cannot be overriden by any rules and Soul of Stone doesn't allow it.

I advocate neither position. Nothing in the Soul of Stone overrides the rules in result 2. The rules in result 2 never come into play because of the order that the rules are activated. When you misfire stone thrower, and you roll a 3, you don't take the casualty from the crew, and then reroll and apply the result of the reroll. You only apply one full result, without taking some of the rules of the first result without applying all of them. Thus, when you have a reroll, you must choose to use the reroll or not, and reroll, before applying any result.

In this case, that means that if a Slann rolls a 2, he can roll again because the choice to roll again comes before you apply the roll of a 2 to the Slann.

This is my argument.

N810
08-04-2009, 14:23
Exactly :D

Bac5665
08-04-2009, 14:35
Yay!! People agree with me!! :D

jax40kplyr1
08-04-2009, 19:26
N810 - I loved your article/argument for EOTG being magical. You have me sold.
2 Questions from responses earlier from folks-
1. I can't find anywhere where it says Burning Alignment has to go at the beginning of the magic phase. Anyone else see that part?
2. How can a Skink Priest be picked out in shooting? The book specifically says randomize, with 1-4 being the Steg, 5 crew, 6 priest?

N810
08-04-2009, 20:01
just added a new leter from GW to it...
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190322

I think it says so in the lizardmen book under the EotG rules..?

yea it's suposed to be randomized...
(don't let your priest get challenged he will likely die)

jax40kplyr1
08-04-2009, 20:40
Okay the rules say specifically "choose which effect at the beginning of the magic phase". So you have to declare which EOTG effect your going to use, not actually use the power at the beginning.

Spirit
08-04-2009, 21:10
Okay the rules say specifically "choose which effect at the beginning of the magic phase". So you have to declare which EOTG effect your going to use, not actually use the power at the beginning.

No I'm not convinced, the way it is worded easily means that when you choose it, you use it. "Choose at the beginning of the magic phase" is in brackets so that you know when to use it.

Bac5665
08-04-2009, 21:24
If your saying that choosing and using it are different, then you still need a clause telling when to use it. Either you choose and use simultaneously, or you choose, and then nothing happens, because there is no other indication of when to use it.

N810
08-04-2009, 22:06
Ok I give up...
what are you trying to do by not using it right away ???

Spirit
08-04-2009, 22:24
Ok I give up...
what are you trying to do by not using it right away ???

Combine it with portent of far or second sign of amul to re roll it's wounds.

Entropolus
08-04-2009, 23:35
1. I think the VC example is a great argument - the rulebook says you can't cast spells more than once. Their army book says they can (on Necromancy spells).

Perhaps, but [IIRC] the BRB does not specifically say that no item or special ability will allow you to cast the same spell more than once. The lack of that phrasing really invalidates use of that as an example.

nosferatu1001
09-04-2009, 05:43
The BRB only states that - "each spell may only be attempted once" - basic rule of spell casting, it does not state you can never cast more than once regardless of a special item.

A roll of 2 is similar to Sweeping Advance in 40K: the SA rule specifically states that no special rule will save the unit unless it specifies it does. Hence Necrons do not get WBB against it.

In the same vein if you are allowed to ignore results of a miscast, you could not ignore a 2 as it states you are not allowed to - no special rule applies to a 2, you're dead. However, if you can re-roll or simply ignore the miscast, the initial throw of a 2 would not apply - you reroll therefore the initial result has not applied. Again, to draw a 40K example a Plasma gun that is twin-linked does not "Gets Hot!" on the initial roll of a 1.

jax40kplyr1
09-04-2009, 13:54
Ah okay nosferatu - the light bulb just clicked above my head. If the double 1 is rolled for the miscast, the ability says I can reroll miscasts AND the rulebook states I basically can't ignore the results nor have any saves. There is nothing in the rulebook double 1s entry that specifies nothing allows you to reroll the result on the table.
Talked with some folks about it the other night and pretty much everyone is in agreement now on Soul of Stone (and EOTG being magical).

Master Stark
09-04-2009, 14:20
double 1 says no special rules or items can help the character...since all items and special rules are in the armybooks they would then overrule this making the point null.

Yes, but you are getting the order of applications mixed up.

1 - Miscast a spell.

2 - Roll on the miscast table.

3 - Decide whether or not to re-roll the result.

4 - Re-roll (or not).

5 - Apply result from the table.

The result of the miscast isn't applied until the re-roll has been used.

nosferatu1001
09-04-2009, 14:27
M aster stark has it - your reroll abiltiy comes before you resolve the result; essentially your reroll is suspending the resolution of the miscast until you decide to accept the first or reroll.

Master Stark
09-04-2009, 14:27
Think of it like a battle standard bearer.

1 - Lose combat.

2 - Fail break test.

3 - Re-roll break test.

4 - Apply final result of break test.

If we go with what you are saying, and apply it logically, we get this sequence instead:

1 - Lose combat

2 - Fail break test

3 - The unit, containing the battle standard bearer, is now fleeing.

4 - Since the battle standard has been captured by the enemy, it's re-roll ability cannot be used.

N810
09-04-2009, 14:46
Excelent logic there,
best argument I have heard so far.
(for or against)

a squig
09-04-2009, 14:58
Q: quick question if a skink cheif takes aceint stegadon does it come with the two giant blowpipes on it or not ??

thanks

Master Stark
09-04-2009, 15:01
Q: quick question if a skink cheif takes aceint stegadon does it come with the two giant blowpipes on it or not ??

thanks

Not trying to be smart, but trying to figure out which part of the rules you think is ambiguous:

Why would you think it doesn't?

And yes, it does.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 15:02
He probably got mixed up with that letter answer that says he can only use one of them (thinking that means you can only take one).

Spirit
09-04-2009, 15:07
Q: quick question if a skink cheif takes aceint stegadon does it come with the two giant blowpipes on it or not ??

thanks

Only an engine of the gods displaces any weapons on rhe stegadon. The chief only displaces a crew, the full compliment of weapons is still there.

N810
09-04-2009, 15:13
yes chief, 4 crew, and 2 giant blow pipes
on the Anchent Steg. :)

a squig
09-04-2009, 15:18
ah thanks guys, glad i found that out before tonights game. :)

i was getting a bit muddled due to the priest turns it into a EOTG i though that becuase it was a hero choice it may knock of its other weapons. kool thats a bonus a large stompy steg with warspear and tons of shooting. I think the cheifs BS is higher so will it use his BS or the Crews? :D

Spirit
09-04-2009, 15:20
The BS argument is hotly debated.

Personally, i would not use the chief's BS unless an FAQ comes out telling me i can. But there are arguments both ways. Discuss it with your opponent and see how they feel.

a squig
09-04-2009, 15:32
kool thanks again, iam sure it will be ok but i will ask anyway. what i might do is run with cheifs skill till hes killed then use the normal skink bs

Nurgling Chieftain
09-04-2009, 19:16
I think the cheifs BS is higher so will it use his BS or the Crews? :DSpirit says it's "hotly contested" but the rule is actually quite clear - as the rules are written, only "Crew" can use the howdah weapons, and not the character.

N810
09-04-2009, 19:29
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190322&page=5

here's the discusion... ;)

Bac5665
09-04-2009, 19:56
Spirit says it's "hotly contested" but the rule is actually quite clear - as the rules are written, only "Crew" can use the howdah weapons, and not the character.

Lets not do that here. And for future reference, when 50% of people disagree with you about something, its probably not clear. Your argument is valid and can be debated. But lets not insult people who disagree with you by saying that its clear when, based on the amount of confusion its cause, it isnt.

Nurgling Chieftain
09-04-2009, 20:49
My opinion that the RaW is clear is based on the text itself, not on the amount of discussion it engendered. I browsed an earlier, much longer discussion first and then went to the passage, expecting it to be unclear. I was honestly a bit startled to find that, to my eyes at least, the text itself is sufficiently clear and specific to answer the question. Whether that is RaI is another matter entirely, but in the meantime I will advise everybody to not use the character's BS in that capacity until such a time as an official FAQ errata's the passage in question.

Bac5665
09-04-2009, 21:01
My point is that the clarity of a phrase is entirely subjective. The meaning of the phrase is air tight and objective. Most government manuals are really unclear, yet often have objectively correct meanings. The things are separate. I think that RAW supports both interpretations, and that the better one is that the Chief can use the bow.

But its far from clear.

Spirit
09-04-2009, 21:17
Guys, there is a time and a place, i stayed on the fence and told him there was already a discussion so we didnt have to have ANOTHER thread filled with it.

He's got the link, let him have a look there.

genestealer_baldric
10-04-2009, 23:31
hi Quick question is possible to feild more than one carnosaur in 2000pts due to it being a lord choice mount ? i think in the previous codex you could take more than one but i cant seem to work out if can now.

thanks in advance :)

Goruax
10-04-2009, 23:35
If the Carnosaur is a Lord-only mount (which it is), then only a Lord can take it.
Since you can only have a single Lord in 2000 points or less, you can only have 1 Carnosaur.

SiNNiX
11-04-2009, 00:12
ah thanks guys, glad i found that out before tonights game. :)

i was getting a bit muddled due to the priest turns it into a EOTG i though that becuase it was a hero choice it may knock of its other weapons. kool thats a bonus a large stompy steg with warspear and tons of shooting. I think the cheifs BS is higher so will it use his BS or the Crews? :D

The crew operates the weapon and therefore uses their leadership. The Chief simply uses the stegadon as a mount and doesn't operate anything unless otherwise stated, which it doesn't. :(

Staurikosaurus
11-04-2009, 07:02
hi Quick question is possible to feild more than one carnosaur in 2000pts due to it being a lord choice mount ? i think in the previous codex you could take more than one but i cant seem to work out if can now.

thanks in advance :)


I suggest you read either your ARMY BOOK or WARHAMMER RULE BOOK as the answer is clear in both.