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Nu Fenix
03-04-2009, 18:57
Whilst I have decided my army will be Fallen Realms, I feel that Angmar are the least popular of the Evil forces.

I popped into my local GW today to have a chat with the staff, and look over their copy of the book whilst I wait for mine to arrive, and on the wall they had a chart of who has what armies and how many points they have. There was about a dozen Evil players of various points, with about half being Mordor, but not a single player wanting Angmar.

Now, I have to wonder, what is it about Angmar that makes them the runt of the Evil lists? If I knew no-one had wanted to be that army locally, I would have picked them on principle! Possible option for allies or my second army, who knows?

Is it because they have the smallest list, and as such the most restrictive?
Do they seem better as allies and not a core force?
Do they just seem inferior to all the other forces, when several elements of the army can just be done with Mordor?

I am not saying no-one will play them, as bebibejita and Boss Zagstruk have posted lists for Angmar, but is they are the only two in three pages of this section of the forums.

Once my book arrives I will have a more detailed look at them to see why I think they are so over-looked, as well as what units I wish to use as allies, but I would like to hear the thoughts from others as to why they think this has happened.

Axis
04-04-2009, 04:46
The reason no one plays angmar is that they don't feature prominently in the movies so people (for the most part) haven't really heard of them. Personally, i think this is a huge shame and i plan to make an angmar force as soon as my elves are done (we needed someone to play good in my play group lol)

Boss Zagstruk
04-04-2009, 08:30
I think argmar is the best of the evil armies, there the first evil army that really got me excited. Im mean i like isenguard but its never had a real wow factor, angmar does tho. The list is fine especially when you ally with misty mountains for some extra beasties like wargs, bats, trolls and spiders. It really helps the angmar theme. I personally think the list is a little restrictive and has less choice but thats a good think. Angmar is a broken kingdom like arnor, its a rag tag army. They shouldnt and dont need to field anything fancy as theyve got lots of monsters and ringwraiths anyways. My only problem with angmar is that i dont know enough about it. Ive read whats in the ruin of angmar book and the very very limited info in the WOTR book but were else can i get info?

takaetun
04-04-2009, 09:04
It's a fairly poor list is the reason. It can't really stand up on its own without huge blocks of spirits or orcs, and if you want an orc army, you go Mordor. I'll be making an entirely spirit force, and heartily expect to be violated for it, but it should be fun. Its a gimmick list, like Forgotten Kingdoms. The fact that several of its nastiest units can only be fielded as a single company isn't so good either.

Math Mathonwy
04-04-2009, 14:04
I think argmar is the best of the evil armies, there the first evil army that really got me excited. Im mean i like isenguard but its never had a real wow factor, angmar does tho. The list is fine especially when you ally with misty mountains for some extra beasties like wargs, bats, trolls and spiders. It really helps the angmar theme. I personally think the list is a little restrictive and has less choice but thats a good think. Angmar is a broken kingdom like arnor, its a rag tag army. They shouldnt and dont need to field anything fancy as theyve got lots of monsters and ringwraiths anyways. My only problem with angmar is that i dont know enough about it. Ive read whats in the ruin of angmar book and the very very limited info in the WOTR book but were else can i get info?
Iron Crown Enterprised released a supplement for their Middle Earth Roleplaying game (MERP) called Land of the Witch King. This was later (1995) released as a slightly expanded version called Angmar. You could try to track that book down - it has a lot of fluff (I have it) and is rather excellent, though it does have quite a lot of stuff specific to MERP like detailed description of some sites and stat blocks for some non-player characters.

Nu Fenix
04-04-2009, 17:19
There might also be some background in the LOTR RPG made by Decipher, who did a fair bit for the game.

In regards to Angmar units, what do folks think of Dead Marsh Spectres?
I'm thinking of splashing them in my army, but using the plastic Last Alliance box which has 24 models inside, and if painted suitably dead would be a much cheaper alternative. One of the key factors for me is they can be joined by a hero, so can make up for their low Fight value when attacking. I'm thinking a Ringwraith, or the 100pt female wizard from the Fallen Realms [name escapes me, begins with G?], who also has both the spirit rules and Terror, so works perfectly.

Reinholt
04-04-2009, 18:51
It's a fairly poor list is the reason. It can't really stand up on its own without huge blocks of spirits or orcs, and if you want an orc army, you go Mordor. I'll be making an entirely spirit force, and heartily expect to be violated for it, but it should be fun. Its a gimmick list, like Forgotten Kingdoms. The fact that several of its nastiest units can only be fielded as a single company isn't so good either.

I have to disagree with this one; I actually think the Angmar list is quite good. Truth be told, all of the evil lists are good to varying degrees, but Angmar has some advantages that cannot be found in other lists:

- A large number of your units can cause terror, which means if the enemy does not have high courage across the board, their performance will be unreliable.

- You can be scary fast and maneuverable; not just in the sense that the only army that should out-quick you is Rohan, but also in the sense that terrain is a huge advantage to you, since you navigate it very effectively with spirits.

- You have several hero units that are also monsters, and do very bad things to your opponent, just like Mordor (arguably better) but in a more points efficient way than Misty Mountains.

- You do have the option to take large blocks of orcs and barbarians in the list, which is extremely helpful. There is no reason Angmar armies cannot have some bulk to them.

- The 25% allies rule for Angmar helps fill out a lot of the weak points of the list. Angmar is light, in particular, on cavalry, but being able to throw in Warg Riders (or just plain Wargs) as allies fixes a lot of problems the list faces very quickly. Likewise, a lot of the Misty Mountains choices (I personally have a Cave Troll) prove useful as well, and possibly some wild men of Dunland to ambush. Since you have a lot of big asskickers in your list (werewolves, barrow wights, Gulavhar, Buhrdur), you can be very points efficient with your allies to cover the weak point of the list.

- Spirits are not something people are going to be used to facing. Angmar is an "outlier" list. The units that are good against Angmar are not necessarily good against other armies; you should have something of an advantage against most all-comers lists for this reason.

- The Tainted. Oh my God, the Tainted. Most of your units thrive on abusing the courage of the enemy. You can take a Ringwraith who's special rules revolve around screwing up the courage of the enemy. Holy <expletive deleted>.

Sum Total: Angmar reminds me of the Eldar in 40k; when you learn to use your units in conjunction with each other to maximize their value, the list becomes incredibly hard to beat. If you can't do that, you're going to get destroyed.


There might also be some background in the LOTR RPG made by Decipher, who did a fair bit for the game.

In regards to Angmar units, what do folks think of Dead Marsh Spectres?
I'm thinking of splashing them in my army, but using the plastic Last Alliance box which has 24 models inside, and if painted suitably dead would be a much cheaper alternative. One of the key factors for me is they can be joined by a hero, so can make up for their low Fight value when attacking. I'm thinking a Ringwraith, or the 100pt female wizard from the Fallen Realms [name escapes me, begins with G?], who also has both the spirit rules and Terror, so works perfectly.

I like the conversion possibilities for the Spectres (I did the same thing with mine, modeling up a unit of dead dunedain warriors), but I don't like the unit itself. The points cost per company is just too high to justify with their lack of durability, and the abilities they offer can be found in the Angmar list for less points and with more punch in other units. I agree they don't have the "We Stand Alone" issue for Ringwraiths or allies to tangle with, but in reality, I'd rather be putting a Ringwraith with barbarians, a huge unit of orcs, or an allied unit of warg riders anyways.

As to taking characters as allies... I wouldn't do it. The Angmar characters are awesome, and as stated above, you'll want to use your allies to cover for your deficiencies. The only character I would consider taking as an ally would be a spectacular duelist character to stick in a huge block of orcs to make them even less appealing to fight.

JHK
05-04-2009, 06:20
Thanks for all the great info on the Angmar list. I am just starting out with WOTR, along with my 8-year old son. He chose Rohan (without a second's hesitation, since he has seen the Ralph Bakshi animated movies) and I decided on Angmar, for many of the reasons people listed above- its only lightly referenced in the trilogy, and the various creatures that make up the forces are very evocative- the background is really open for a highly customized force.

My first 1000 pts is mostly focused on Spirits (I have 50) and some Misty mountain allies (wargs mostly, plus a cave troll). The funny thing about the list is that you have to take allies to get a cave troll. It actually seems weird to have an army that can be led by a Cave Troll chieftain which can;t take any Cave trolls on its own.

Jind_Singh
05-04-2009, 08:26
Oh my god - heres my local stores managers 1000 point list!!!

Witch king on fell beast, with some power upgrades
6 trays of ghosts - with 3 captins
Mumak!!!

A mumak in an otherwise Angmar list! Horrible! His entire army causes terror, the witch king allows a + 1 to each priority roll, and he has a few spells which reduce the enemy leadership - meaning that when the ghosts attack they will dominate!!!

Ekk!!!

Tizz
05-04-2009, 08:42
I notice that no one has really touched on Court of the Fallen Kings yet. To me they seem to be one of the most fantastic units in the army. Ignore Resistance, wound on courage, and everything else that the other spirits do. What are peoples feelings on these guys? I am wanting to make either a Fallen Relms list with Angmar allies, or vice versa

Vilicate
05-04-2009, 08:58
I'm going to start an Angmar list as well it looks like. I was especially attracted to the really nice spirit models.

I was initially bummed out a bit that I couldn't put my Ringwraith (The Tainted is not only the best looking RW, but he's also the best for this army - awesome) in my spirits, so I was looking for a better place to put him. I think an allied unit of wargs is about perfect for him, though the Angmar Orcs with a RW and attached shaman seem really good as well - just because they have access to Dismay spells.

Also, I'm thinking that the Shades are going to be a mandatory choice for this list - bring other people down to the same or a worse fight value than you seems like a big deal.

I think this is what is going to be my initial purchase for my 1k army:

Tainted
2 x 3 Ghostly Legions w/ Captains
3 Angmar Orcs w/ Shields, Shaman, Banner and Musician
2 Shades

It seems pretty decent, and might be fun to play, but I'm not really sure how I can deal with monsters. Maybe take a unit of Court of Fallen Kings or something.

Hellfury
06-04-2009, 06:30
I agree a lot with Reinholt's assessment of Angmar.

I feel that they are more of a 40K Dark Eldar equivalent to WotR, but thats splitting hairs.

Nifty trick to try is using Grima Wormtongue on an opponents really tough unit if you use a lot of units in your army that utilize the Spirit Grasp rule.

Grima's "treacherous snake" rule almost basically guarantees that units demise by reducing the units courage by 2. For 75 pts, he is worth crushing an opponents star unit. His synergy with spirit grasp is indeed very sick. Add The Tainted as Reinholt spoke of (except on a fellbeast for maximum anguish) and watch the hilarity ensue as your opponents knuckles go white with rage as their big burly units crumble to the WitchKing's vile machinations. :angel: :D

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
06-04-2009, 07:03
Are those morgul knights in the angmar list? I love those models. Can't seem to find them on the GW site right now though...

takaetun
06-04-2009, 07:09
Oh my god - heres my local stores managers 1000 point list!!!

Witch king on fell beast, with some power upgrades
6 trays of ghosts - with 3 captins
Mumak!!!


Feel free to tell him that the list isn't legal - the Witch King on Fell Beast must be taken as an ally, as it's a Legendary Formation, not an Epic Hero.

...And wow. That Wormtongue idea is nasty...

Edit: Morgul Knights are in the Fallen Realms.

Da Black Gobbo
06-04-2009, 11:20
Feel free to tell him that the list isn't legal - the Witch King on Fell Beast must be taken as an ally, as it's a Legendary Formation, not an Epic Hero.

...And wow. That Wormtongue idea is nasty...

Edit: Morgul Knights are in the Fallen Realms.

Witch king or AKA Witch king of Angmar, isn't an ally, he is already in the list along with 2 nazgūls.

The Muster of Rohan
06-04-2009, 11:25
Read "The Shadow of the Nazgul" box again (emphasis mine):


An Angmar army is also allowed to choose the following Epic Heroes as if they were part of the Angmar army list (see page 163)

That's the Epic Hero versions of the Nazgul from page 163, then. Not the Legendary Formation Winged Nazgul from page 162, which would have to be taken as Allies.

Also, Jind_Singh, I make that army 1160 points. Double cheatiness!

Nu Fenix
06-04-2009, 15:22
I notice that no one has really touched on Court of the Fallen Kings yet. To me they seem to be one of the most fantastic units in the army. Ignore Resistance, wound on courage, and everything else that the other spirits do. What are peoples feelings on these guys? I am wanting to make either a Fallen Relms list with Angmar allies, or vice versa

I like the idea of them as well. My only thought is making them look different enough from a formation of Ghostly Legion to not mix them up.

My only concern with them is, once people realise what they are, they will have a massive target on them. Also, if your opponent has little in the way of Resistance 2+ models, you are paying extra points for an ability that won't turn up enough.

takaetun
06-04-2009, 15:27
The other difficulty with them is that because they're just one company, they'll get violated by anything that has R2 anyway. Berserkers of various sorts won't leave them alive to use their ability a second time, and cavalry and monsters strike before them anyway.

Aren't they just Barrow Wrights?

Nu Fenix
06-04-2009, 15:31
I couldn't remember if they would be Barrow Wights or done using the Army of the Dead box - an error has meant my delivery hasn't arrived, so I can't check things in my book, and I'm relying on a fuzzy memory.

Spider-pope
06-04-2009, 15:49
They are Barrow Wights, the evil version of the Army of the Dead are Ghostly Legion and Ghostly riders.

Nu Fenix
06-04-2009, 18:45
The reason for my confusion came from GWs website, where under the Army of the Dead box, it has profiles for Army of the Dead, Ghostly Legion and Court of the Fallen King.

Reinholt
06-04-2009, 22:27
A couple more thoughts after tinkering with my Angmar army a bit:

- Barrow wights are, indeed, pretty damn evil. Particularly against cavalry, other resilience 2 units, and monsters. Their special ability stacks the odds heavily in their favor in these matchups. They are just downright bad dudes. The real weakness of this unit is against large rank-and-file units. Their fight value is not overwhelmingly high, and their special ability doesn't do anything to large blocks of basic dudes... that would be the matchup where they get stomped.

- I am not necessarily sold on Shades being necessary (for 100 points, they are pretty fragile and not always of extreme use), but I am sold on the fact that you need either some cavalry of your own or some crafty use of allies. The danger of the army will be cavalry heavy units running you over quickly if you are not careful, as Angmar is not cavalry heavy itself (the only common cavalry unit is expensive as hell). Warg Rider / Warg allies seem very valuable.

- From a background perspective, after picking through quite a few resources on Tolkien, I think Angmar has a good call to use all kinds of interesting allies. Most of the things in the Mordor list not directly connected to Mordor itself (the legendary characters, mainly) fit well: warg riders, siege bows, and the like all fit nicely into the army. Likewise, with the proximity to the Misty Mountains and the background of Angmar, taking various monstrous beasties (wargs, cave trolls, spiders, etc) seems to fit quite cleanly.

- Angmar armies shouldn't be small. The undead are expensive, and can be wiped off the board quickly, but the same cannot be said for either Cairn Dum barbarians (who were an integral part of the Witch King's forces, apparently) or the orcs... if you balance out your heavy hitting with some bulk to take punches, the army goes from scary but fragily to really scary and resilient.

So far I'm liking them quite a bit. I think list design is key, as Angmar may be the army where it is easiest to build a weak list if you overbuy the expensive stuff or don't take units with synergy.

Chris_Tzeentch
07-04-2009, 17:02
I notice that no one has really touched on Court of the Fallen Kings yet. To me they seem to be one of the most fantastic units in the army. Ignore Resistance, wound on courage, and everything else that the other spirits do. What are peoples feelings on these guys? I am wanting to make either a Fallen Relms list with Angmar allies, or vice versa

They destroy cavalry with the greatest of ease. They are a little slow because they cannot move at the double, but they are resilient. I like them.

JHK
07-04-2009, 19:27
I haven;t heard much commentary about the Spectral Host unit in this thread, but they seemed to me to be a pretty decent unit to park The Tainted in, since they are the only spirit unit that doesn;t have "We Stand Alone". The Tainted's chilling effect on courage will increase the effectiveness of the spectral hosts special ability, as well as the overall units combat ability.
Has anyone tried this?

Reinholt
07-04-2009, 19:39
I have tried it, and I can't say I would recommend it. The synergy that they have with The Tainted (which is significant) is just not enough to overcome the fact that the unit is possibly the most overcosted unit in the entire game (after looking through all the lists).

Defense 4 means they get absolutely torn up by shooting. The fact that they are so high points means you cannot effectively take large blocks of them to ameliorate this. Magic and high courage units (elves, dwarves, etc) tend to absolutely wreck them for less points.

It's just not a good unit. Sure, they don't have "We Stand Alone", but so be it. I would rather have The Tainted either with a very large block of orcs in the middle of my line (so that he can enhance all the undead around him), or with a bunch of allied Warg Riders (so I can get him anywhere I want him to be on the battlefield). Both of which I could have 4-5 times as many of as the Spectral Host...

JHK
07-04-2009, 19:56
I have tried it, and I can't say I would recommend it. The synergy that they have with The Tainted (which is significant) is just not enough to overcome the fact that the unit is possibly the most overcosted unit in the entire game (after looking through all the lists).

Defense 4 means they get absolutely torn up by shooting. The fact that they are so high points means you cannot effectively take large blocks of them to ameliorate this. Magic and high courage units (elves, dwarves, etc) tend to absolutely wreck them for less points.

It's just not a good unit. Sure, they don't have "We Stand Alone", but so be it. I would rather have The Tainted either with a very large block of orcs in the middle of my line (so that he can enhance all the undead around him), or with a bunch of allied Warg Riders (so I can get him anywhere I want him to be on the battlefield). Both of which I could have 4-5 times as many of as the Spectral Host...

thanks for this- your analysis totally makes sense. I am just learning the game, and haven;t had much experience with high courage armies.

I had been planning on adding Angmar orcs to my list when it got above 1000, so I will definitely follow your advice. At the moment, I have been focused on a small list with ghostly legions and wargs, alternating Burhdur with the Tainted as the leader.

As a side note, do you see any value in having a Warg Chieftain? I had been thinking to keep the units cheap and expendable, but the extra might points and courage bonus seemed like it might be worth it.

thanks!

Spider-pope
07-04-2009, 20:17
thanks for this- your analysis totally makes sense. I am just learning the game, and haven;t had much experience with high courage armies.

I had been planning on adding Angmar orcs to my list when it got above 1000, so I will definitely follow your advice. At the moment, I have been focused on a small list with ghostly legions and wargs, alternating Burhdur with the Tainted as the leader.

As a side note, do you see any value in having a Warg Chieftain? I had been thinking to keep the units cheap and expendable, but the extra might points and courage bonus seemed like it might be worth it.

thanks!

I usually try and get at least 1 might point in every formation i intend to reach combat, just to ensure they get there. Nothing worse than failing a charge/getting held in place by a spell/etc. and knowing there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you expect to face a character like Gandalf, i'd consider it a must.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-04-2009, 20:29
If it makes you feel any better the first games I play with my friends and all my models will be Gondorians (Numenoreans) with some High Elves of Lindon and some armoured Wood Elves vs. warg riders, ghosts, barrow wights, witch king, ringwraith, some trolls, warg riders, orcs, and a load of goblins. To be honest its because all of the models listed above are painted.
I think it will make for some good demo games. Food troops, captains, cavalry, magic, well painted models, and my lovely table at home. Oh dear me it has been way too long since I have played a game :(

Mouldsta
07-04-2009, 22:39
A lot of it is people just expanded what they had before - my WoTR harad army is because I already had a load of haradrim, so it was the obvious choice. Didn't see many spectre lists before WoTR, so it's inevitable that there won' be too many to start with.

Personally I just don't find it that inspiring, at least not untill I see some werewolf models.