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WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 04:48
Wow! I was very surprised today when I played Empire with my orcs for the first time. To be honest, I was nervous with their 1+ save knights and all their detachments. Any way, Very first turn I shot an 8 knight strong unit with my Spear Chukka, killing two, and caused them to flee. Not bad for the first turn. On his turn, he failed his rally roll and they ran off the table. Haha, unlucky. But there is more.... Another 8 man strong unit (+ his general) of those white wolf cause charged a unit of 22 strong orc boyz unit weilding 2xHw. due to range, he could only get a front of 4 knights, while i had a front of 4 boyz (8 attacks) and 5 ranks behind. In his charge, he killed 4 boyz. In my return attack I managed to kill a night, then had +3 for ranks, and +1 for outnumbering. My boyz won the combat! his unit fled 7", I pursued 9...his unit was trampled. Now, I do not know if I was very lucky or he was unlucky, but on turn one in the game I managed to destroy to very high priced knigh units with a spear Chukka (75 points) and a unit of boyz (154 points). Not bad for the first time.... but should I expect these results very often??

shutupSHUTUP!!!
15-12-2005, 04:54
You shouldn't base the worth of a unit based on an unlucky game for them. My Empire knights regularly fight with the best of them and win, they are a good deal for the points since they pay for good stats in all the right places (unlike elves).

Krusk
15-12-2005, 04:58
Ummm, imperial knights are not the "best" knights, but the price is good, and they are core. and they really should charge the side or the back of a unit, and your opponent should have found some way to deal with the chukka, or used cover to avoid it to some degree if possible.

WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 04:58
Thanks for the tip. The game was rather boring with the knights gone, my wolf and boar riders mopped up his detachments and ate through his men with nothing very hard to face against. Definately was VERY unlucky for him, we'll see how much damage they can deal to me next game.

WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 04:59
Problem for him was I went first and deployed the Chukka on a hill:)

Slappy
15-12-2005, 05:02
Hmmm. nope, Empire Knights suck.

I played Empire for a long time before giving them up. They are just blah. Good saving throw I guess, but besides that, don't expect to break any units with them unless you hit in the flank or something. Funny enough though, that unit of Knights will cost more than the units you are hitting with them, except they can't even break those units! It's pathetic. All your paying for basically is the speed and the charge, after that's over they are basically junk.

If I am paying 300 points for a unit, I expect them to break another unit that cost less points on the charge in the FRONT. If I have to hit a unit in the side or rear with a big expensive block of something just for it to be useful, then what does that say exactly?

Yes I know they have their place, but Empire Knights are nothing to be scared of. Just shoot a few and watch them run off the table. Making them Inner Circle helps alot though.

RGB
15-12-2005, 05:44
Empire knights are a support unit. Besides the lovely armour they've got the mediocre Ld8 and the killing power of snails on speed (WW are better, yes). A captain in a unit of 9 is a hitty unit but even then it's not as great as it sounds on paper.

He made 2 mistakes - WW knights not IC, and WW knights in a unit of 8. That's a tremendous waste of points. Knights come in 5, 6 or 10 to be any good. Plus as you say his general whiffed. Had he had ten knights, you would have lost, for example. Had his general hit and wounded, ditto. Had he had his AS roll not roll the statistically uncommon 1, he'd have won. But point-for-point, your boys are actually better.

On the other hand, small units can be used for screening pistoliers, supporting infantry units, absorbing fire in all sorts of general ways and so on. They are a valuable addition to the list but with Empire infantry is the focus, that and the artillery support. They're much better when charging the flank as well.

Empire aren't Brets; they don't do the point-and-click very well.

Iron Clad MacFearson
15-12-2005, 07:03
The most effective way I've seen empire knights played is two units of 15, 1 with the war banner the other inner circle w/ hero. The unt w/ the war banner gets CR +5 (2 ranks, std,out#,war banner) w/o any kills. Very hard to stand up to a charge against this. He works hard to protect them , and is quiet good at it. It costs alot but they usually earn there points. He is a skilled player , and I've learnd to fear and respect empire knights.

Lord Lucifer
15-12-2005, 08:29
Another 8 man strong unit (+ his general) of those white wolf cause charged a unit of 22 strong orc boyz unit weilding 2xHw. due to range, he could only get a front of 4 knights, while i had a front of 4 boyz (8 attacks) and 5 ranks behind. In his charge, he killed 4 boyz. In my return attack I managed to kill a night, then had +3 for ranks, and +1 for outnumbering.
There's the problem. He charged the front, which was a grave tactical error on his part.

I find Knights work better for me in units of 5 or 6, to deal with enemy harrassment troops, and then support main line troops in combat, by delivering flank charges and swinging things enough in my favour for a decisive win. The 1+ and 2+ saves make flanking a low-risk venture against most opponents, whereas detachment flanking manouevres can in some cases be more of a hindrance than a help.
The small number also reduces the effectiveness of enemy through-the-ranks fire (Cannons, Bolt Throwers, Warpfire and Flame Cannons etc.)

Knights are not a steamroller unless heavily supported by numbers and characters, far better using their relative speed to their advantage to deliver attacks to weak points and capitalising and favourable conditions to really break a combat line down.

Toryn
15-12-2005, 10:17
Just a quick question. You said you both had a front of 4 models, and he killed four on the charge, with you replying with one kill. Since you said that gave you 8 attacks, I assume no champion was involved, meaning that his 4 kills meant you would be unable to strike back, since he killed the whole first rank. Therfore, you shouldn't have been able to get the one kill yourself, unless a champion was involved who wasn't killed. If it was, just ignore me completely.

As for the rest, yes, Empire knights can be good, but there is no way they should charge a unit that large in the front unsupported. Don't judge how good they are based on just this fight.

Oh, and woo hoo, first post back since Portent for me!

Galonthar
15-12-2005, 12:22
ok.... I s`pose its me playing terribly wrong again,...for I never seem to manage to get them down... true they don`t deal damage seriously.. but they`re nigh-immortal

My friend always places his knight in one big block (or a few blocks, riding beside each other) and puts a handfull of characters in it, distributes a couple magic banners, and that unit will never fall or run (armour from hell + massive psych boost) I`ve only seen it fall once, and that was when some-one flanked it with HE prince on dragon + nullstone (to disable the banners) .. which turned out into about 30 kills in one overrun :p

ps, welcome back then Toryn ;)

raygungothic
15-12-2005, 12:38
The empire is NOT an easy army to use. Nothing in it is good in isolation.

In my experience, Empire knights can be very good indeed, but they need to be used very very carefully. Certainly not in solo charges. Thanks to the breadth of cavalry bases they don't get many attacks, and the variability in success rates on small numbers of dice is large, so the number of kills they'll get on a simple charge is highly unpredictable; in one battle I set two regiments of knights to clear two skaven slave screens, both missed too many targets and those two regiments of knights were driven off and slain... by a handful of two point skaven slaves. Just a little humiliating.

Small units are, however, much more effective if held in reserve and used to flank charge friendly engaged units. Even big units need to be used really carefully. I suspect that a big unit of knights could pull off a frontal charge if pistoliers flanked at the same time, but I've not finished building my pistoliers yet.

FlameKnight
15-12-2005, 13:19
Empire knights aren't chaos knights. Your opponent wasn't using them wisely, charging headlong into a ranked infantry regiment. As someone said, they're support units, much like cavalry was of the time; you just _wouldn't_ charge cavalrymen into infantry formations without friendly infantry support. Much the same here, there is very little static combat res. unlike infantry units.

Personally, I hold my knights in reserve as my infantry advances, moving in for flank charges, chasing down fleeing units and skirmishers.

SuperBeast
15-12-2005, 13:40
Discussing points values isn't really worthwhile in this instance either.
In 40K, yes, points tend to beat points. In fantasy, it's a lot more complicated because of knock-on effects.

My unit of 10 Wild Riders cost over 300pts, but I would never consider a frontal charge against a ranked up unit unless absolutely necessary.
You have to plan for best combat res if no wounds are caused, and a unit of cavalry going up against a big block of troops is going to get spannered if the dice are even slightly in your opponent's favour.

Empire knights are damn good when used in their place.
I've been on the receiving end of some well co-ordinated charges and, whaddya know, when used sensibly they kick butt.

If you think that bunging heavy armour straight at a block of troops is the best tactic, you need some help. ;)

Gaius Marius
15-12-2005, 16:32
What makes Empire knights so devestating is the context in which they deploy. They deploy along with handguns crossbows, cannons & mortars. With pistoliers and with good detachment assisted infantry.

I find that with my empire knights - (in 2000pts I use one unit of 8 inner circle with a warbanner led by the Grand Master, and one unit of 8 led by a Hero with Icon of Magnus) - I almost always am able to get the charge, because of all the "motivating" units I have supporting them.

My Knights regularly charge the front of units and win. I just don't charge into full, unblemished units. I charge units that have suffered some damage on the way in from my magic, shooters & artilery. Obviously charging in to units that have +4 on the combat res over you is a little foolish (3 ranks & outnumber)

The most important advantage for my Empire knights over other knights (ie chaos, Undead, Most bretonnians) is that I get to choose the charge more often than not. I use them as a counter charge force. I mean that I wait on my line more often than not for the other guy to come to me, and when he is close enough, I charge him with my knights. A Chaos general for example, has to decide if he wants to take another round of shooting in the face while he tries to manouver to get the charge in on me, or just move in and get charged but avoid the shooting punishment. The same applies to Brettonia, Undead etc. High elves can usually turn the tables on me in that department but I digress.... Against Infantry opponents I always should get the choice and the charge.

If as an Empire general your play style favours infantry, then small units of knights (5-6 without characters) make perfect sense for flank breaking and infantry support.

The point is that Empire knights aren't "point & click" like Bretonnia but they are a far far cry from useless. I would argue they are one of the best core choices in the game.

zak
15-12-2005, 18:13
Any unit in the hands of a novice is a poor unit if used in a no brainer way. You have to be extremely lucky or tooled up to beat ranked infantry with cavalry. Empire Knights IF used properly are deadly. I can't believe he used a mounted Empire General. I've always used one on foot as it is IMHO far more reliable and like the example showed less likely to do a runner.
That said, you were lucky to hit with the bolt thrower. my mate couldn'y hit a barn door at ten paces with his!

LaughinGremlin
15-12-2005, 20:28
Knights underpowered against a bolt thrower? The purpose of a bolt thrower is to kill knights, just like anything else that ignores armor saves. I remember my knights being hit by Shadow Magic's damage spell that ignores armor saves. Ouch!

night2501
15-12-2005, 20:45
refering to the original post...
well that hapend a lot with cavalry, contrary to wath a lot of people think tha tis a comon escenary, I lost the count of how many times the skavens of mi brother taked a cavalry charge and won, or tie/lost by almost nothing to win the second turn...few are the cavalries that can charge and win against a substancial rabk and file unit...
now aboytthe shoting, well your warmachines negates theyr save, and a knight without save ^^U

ho by the way, in a game against empire, mi WE scouts moved to charge the mortar the next turn, he shot them with the mortar at minimun range, then the mortar shot scater right above the mortar anhilating the unit, the white wolf unit that was near, cheked for panick due to unit destroyed i nthe shoting phase :wtf: and they run out the board XD

WarriorOfJustice
15-12-2005, 21:03
All right, I figured it is time to step back in here since I think the original intention of my post if getting side stepped (partly my fault). Any way, the reason that I posted this was because I was surprised how easy it was to take out his knights. I had never really gone against heavy knights before and I figured that were gonna be hard as hell to take out. My original post was just to show my surprise that these expensive and heavily armored knights are still just as vulnerable in some situations as a unit of gobbos! But all of your guys comments did help me because it gave me ideas how the knights should be used so I can watch out for them now. Thanks guys!

raygungothic
16-12-2005, 09:28
Combat resolution has pretty much always been the principal mechanism for winning warhammer. Almost everything is a tool towards it. Knights have a tough time racking up enough, even on the charge, and a player who isn't aware of this will lose them each and every time however good their stats are. Chaos Knights don't seem to do much better, even if their stats *are* horrid.

I'm glad things work this way. Things which break these basic principles are usually the things I hate most/wish would be reconsidered - 5th Ed Bretonnian lances, that current High Elf banner that adds d6 combat result. Ugly.

That gives me an idea for a thread...

Latro
16-12-2005, 12:37
Yup

There are only a few knightly units that can reliably take on a fully-ranked infantry unit and win:

1. Chosen of Khorne
2. Grail Knights
3. Saurus Cavalry (perhaps)

It's the number of attacks that makes the difference, and these units (the Chosen especially) excell at that. It's soooooo satisfying to make your opponent remove a few _ranks_ instead of just some models as casualties. :evilgrin:


:cool:

samw
16-12-2005, 14:08
Actually just about any bret lance at nine strong can be expected to win at least the first round against your standard infantry block, and often the second, owing to the fact stated above, static CR. 2 ranks, a standard and probably outnumber after the charge all mean you're going off kills, which brets can rack up easily. But of course, Bretonnians are the exception.

Insane Alex
16-12-2005, 14:35
Yup

There are only a few knightly units that can reliably take on a fully-ranked infantry unit and win:

1. Chosen of Khorne
2. Grail Knights
3. Saurus Cavalry (definately)

It's the number of attacks that makes the difference, and these units (the Chosen especially) excell at that. It's soooooo satisfying to make your opponent remove a few _ranks_ instead of just some models as casualties. :evilgrin:


:cool:

Fixed.

As strong and as many attacks as Chaos Knights...

raygungothic
16-12-2005, 15:23
Actually just about any bret lance at nine strong can be expected to win at least the first round against your standard infantry block, and often the second, owing to the fact stated above, static CR. 2 ranks, a standard and probably outnumber after the charge all mean you're going off kills, which brets can rack up easily. But of course, Bretonnians are the exception.

As they have no strong infantry at all, Bretonnia would be rather weak without the lance - and I think the present implementation is pretty good. 5th Edition's was horrible... but so was so much else in 5th, so let's not go there. Though of course no formation bonuses can cure rubber lance syndrome... but the horses usually make up for it.

Second round kills, though, seem pretty rare. The... oh... THREE knights in contact after the first round aren't all that super, unless they're Grail knights, which I don't have. I'd slightly rather be Empire after the charge.

Latro
16-12-2005, 15:33
Actually just about any bret lance at nine strong can be expected to win at least the first round against your standard infantry block, and often the second, owing to the fact stated above, static CR. 2 ranks, a standard and probably outnumber after the charge all mean you're going off kills, which brets can rack up easily. But of course, Bretonnians are the exception.

Win, yes ... but reliably defeating a unit is something else.

First of all, line infantry units tend to be larger than just 20 models these days. The regular 9-man Bretonnian lance formation would be outnumbered and outranked by 1 most of the time.

Next, to overcome the +2 CR of the enemy the Knights have 8 (champ included) attacks ... so winning should be no problem. But winning by enough to reliably break the enemy? What if the enemy has better WS/T or save than average?

... what if they're stubborn?

They definately are good and near the top of the knightly foodchain ... but not quite up to par with Grail Knights and Chosen of Khorne.

:cool:

Bingo the Fun Monkey
16-12-2005, 17:10
I think empire knights are fine. Just cos a unit is expensive doesn't mean it's going to make the game any easier for you (and w/ my green mentality I think points sinks are a real headache). You are paying the points for the ability to actually get a charge on the flanks, not to have t3h ub3r un17 0f d00m that requires no brains to use. I find it sad that most warhammer battles are simply line 'em up and bash 'em deals instead of actual games of strategy.

Crazy Harborc
16-12-2005, 21:12
IMHO, a formation of 8 knights(w/command) is NOT a complete unit. It takes 10 knights (or more) to give a unit a decent chance to fight and win, not just survive.

We like 2500 to 3000 point games. Cav units with 10/12 bodies. The ranks are 5 across, maybe 6. If smaller units of cav are used, they're ganged up on oppossing units. The ideal is using cav for flank/rear attacks.