PDA

View Full Version : Hardest to Defeat



Whitesox
03-04-2009, 23:56
I came across the following army during me and my mates ongoing war of the beard (we take it in turns to try to out cheese each other).

So far this army has out performed every other list we tried (i.e. 17 power dice vamps, star dragon elves, throek gun line etc)

So i am wondering what is the hardest list to defeat you have faced and how did you fare?

Bloodthirster
Immortal Fury
Firestorm Blade
Spell Breaker
Armour of Khorne
535pts

Skulltaker
Jugganaut
200pts

Blue Scribes
81pts

Herald of Tzeentch
Master of Sorcery
Spell Breaker
165pts

12 Pink Horrors
144pts

12 Pink Horrors
144pts

15 Horrors
180pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

5 Flesh Hounds
175pts

6 Flamers of Tzeentch
210pts

2 Bloodcrushers
140pts

2499pts

7 Power dice (potential of alot more due to the scribes)
6 Dispel dice
P.s. i was wiped out by turn 3

Nu Fenix
04-04-2009, 00:07
What were you using to be wiped out by Turn 3? Since you are constantly trying to one-up each other, it may be useful to know what you were using to be defeated.

Also, was it purely down to that army being better, or did the dice gods look poorly on you whilst shining on him, or he performed tactically better then you, or any other random factor that made it act above and beyond?

Spirit
04-04-2009, 00:08
Sorry to be an idiot, but what do the blue scribes do? That might be what im missing to see this list as awsome.

selone
04-04-2009, 00:10
Every time their opponent sucesfuly casts a spell he gains a power dice.

Lord Dan
04-04-2009, 02:28
Every time their opponent sucesfuly casts a spell he gains a power dice.

Which is why I just don't cast spells at all. That'll show him...

Hardest list for me was the Thorek gunline. Still is, actually. I fared horribly.

The_Dragon_Rising
04-04-2009, 07:51
Which is why I just don't cast spells at all. That'll show him...

Unfortunatly as a lizard frog player the blue scribes hurt like you would not believe i average 6 spells a turn...funnily enough therefore half of those are going towards the blue scribes to stop their effect.

EvC
04-04-2009, 12:35
If they have the Blue Scribes, distil your power dice into 1-2 BIG spells a turn. If you're trying to cast 6 small spells each turn, including those from your Skink Priests, then you're playing really badly.

DON'T play by rote, i.e. don't say "I'm going to use this tactic against every opponent", because if you do, then when you play something that counters that, you're gonna be stuck. Instead play adaptively, so if you come across something that counters a prime tactic- you adapt, or die.

Anyway yes, this army list is truly horrible and can massacre an unsuspecting opponent damn quickly, unfortunately. I think a Slaanesh Herald with Siren Song in a small unit of Seekers would make it even nastier, but I'm sure that would go against this army's cohesive "theme".

Staurikosaurus
04-04-2009, 13:03
Hardest list I've had to face thus far was nurgle daemons. Bloody bastards wouldn't die. It's the only army that's beaten me (twice as you can tell by my sig) though the second time was just barely. I plan on taking another go at it next week so hopefully . . .

Whitesox
04-04-2009, 16:02
If they have the Blue Scribes, distil your power dice into 1-2 BIG spells a turn. If you're trying to cast 6 small spells each turn, including those from your Skink Priests, then you're playing really badly.

DON'T play by rote, i.e. don't say "I'm going to use this tactic against every opponent", because if you do, then when you play something that counters that, you're gonna be stuck. Instead play adaptively, so if you come across something that counters a prime tactic- you adapt, or die.

Anyway yes, this army list is truly horrible and can massacre an unsuspecting opponent damn quickly, unfortunately. I think a Slaanesh Herald with Siren Song in a small unit of Seekers would make it even nastier, but I'm sure that would go against this army's cohesive "theme".

well this is why i got wiped out by turn 3, i was using vampire counts and it was a list which wouldnt function without IoN... it faired well versus any daemon lists without the scribes

EvC
05-04-2009, 12:22
Well, that's what you get for invo-spamming. If you're ever really worried about it, then try casting Summon Undead Horde for once. And pray to not miscast!!

Whitesox
05-04-2009, 12:59
Well, that's what you get for invo-spamming. If you're ever really worried about it, then try casting Summon Undead Horde for once. And pray to not miscast!!

Well i was not lucky enough to roll for summon undead horde so i had to rely on IoN cast on 2 or 3 dice a time which severly limited my phase (im used to casting IoN 7 times a phase on 1 dice) to cut down on the amount of spells i had to dispel each turn, p.s. it was not funny when the scribes rolled for Spirit of the Forge on one turn then Pit of Shades on the next :mad:

Chicago Slim
05-04-2009, 13:09
well this is why i got wiped out by turn 3, i was using vampire counts and it was a list which wouldnt function without IoN... it faired well versus any daemon lists without the scribes

Paper, meet scissors.

bob_the_small
05-04-2009, 14:56
Paper, meet scissors

Hehehe, good one m8.

SilentStalker
05-04-2009, 15:36
lol bloodthirster is so easy for any star dragon player that has read the faq.
BT has firestorm blade, so flaming attack if i am not mistaken? (almost 100% that item gives that to him...)
dragon rider ALWAYS has dragon armor, if he doesn't the HE player has no idea what he is doing.
dragon armor makes the rider AND his mount immune to flaming and any damage that would otherwise be associated with the flaming attack (such as a cannon ball, etc...)

Q. If a model (or its mount) equipped with
Dragon Armour is hit by a flaming
cannonball, flaming bolt, flaming sword, and
so on, is the model immune to the entire
attack, or will they still be crushed by the
underlying bolt, cannonball, sword, etc.?
A. They are immune to the entire attack. The
rules are clear, and obviously the alchemical
reason for this is that the armour repels both
the element of fire and the vessel that is
imbued with it.

Therefore all you have to do is chase around the BT with dragon! dealing with the rest of the army would require a bit of thought though... =P

AramilSairSianontel
05-04-2009, 16:02
or attack with a unit of dragon princes and challenge with champion-if he's equiped with fow bane you might be lucky enough to do some wounds

SilentStalker
05-04-2009, 16:05
yeah. so i think out of the list of armies you provided star dragon HE might have the best chance! are you going to have another go at defeating it?

AramilSairSianontel
05-04-2009, 16:20
I love my star dragon, but to be honest i think the best chances lie within a cannon heavy list-dwarven thorek gunline-or empire with great cannons steam tanks and riflemen and crossbowmen to take bt early on-after all he got ony 5 wounds doesn't he??

The_Dragon_Rising
05-04-2009, 16:35
If they have the Blue Scribes, distil your power dice into 1-2 BIG spells a turn. If you're trying to cast 6 small spells each turn, including those from your Skink Priests, then you're playing really badly.


My Lizards regularly get off a spell each from each priest (one of whom carries a power stone) the rod of the storm on a turn, charm of the jaguar warrior and then my slaan for example using fire can get of spell number one with 1 dice burning head and bigger fireball with 2 dice each then power stone confrag and remaining dice and power stone go on wall of fire. Granted this power isnt every turn with many one use items but still 9 spells... usually as i said however many of these head for the scribes until they die.

EvC
05-04-2009, 17:41
Nice demonstration of what I was saying ;) At least save the power stones and one-use-only bound spells for until you've killed the Scribes!

Lord Dan
05-04-2009, 17:55
Well, that's what you get for invo-spamming.

EvC: Enforcer of game justice. ;)

W0lf
05-04-2009, 18:21
But invo-spamming is so much fun :(

(yes i cba to quote)

Whitesox
05-04-2009, 20:22
lol bloodthirster is so easy for any star dragon player that has read the faq.
BT has firestorm blade, so flaming attack if i am not mistaken? (almost 100% that item gives that to him...)
dragon rider ALWAYS has dragon armor, if he doesn't the HE player has no idea what he is doing.
dragon armor makes the rider AND his mount immune to flaming and any damage that would otherwise be associated with the flaming attack (such as a cannon ball, etc...)



Yes but out of all the daemon players i have came across exchange the firestorm blade for the axe of khorne when they play high elves... but yes in a tournament setting 90%+ of all blood thirsters will have a firestorm blade.

Ultimo ninja
05-04-2009, 20:35
Blue scribes are incredible....and horribly broken for only 81 points!

I cant wait for a massive demons nerf, till then ill hit them with anything i can find that works.

AramilSairSianontel
05-04-2009, 22:17
I actually wouldn't like a massive demons nerf-a s far as that is from now-even though my main opponent is them- iwouldn't like to see them become orcs-the greenskins used to rock with the old book...anyway i couldn't wait if i thought that in the next edition all books are going to be equal in strenght even though vastly different -even more than now...that i think would be something to wait

Chicago Slim
05-04-2009, 23:10
lol bloodthirster is so easy for any star dragon player ...

Heck, why waste all that offensive power? Charge the BT with a HE Noble on a Giant Eagle-- tie him up all game. Meanwhile, you've now got a points advantage on the rest of the battle, as your 120 points fights his 550 to a stalemate...

Spirit
05-04-2009, 23:23
How does a HE noble stop a thirster?

Classical Mushroom
05-04-2009, 23:30
How does a HE noble stop a thirster?

The HE army has a set of armor called Dragon armor i believe which is heavy armor that makes the bearer immune to Flaming attacks.

This will only works if the BT uses the Firestorm blade tho, which most iv seen have. ;)

Spirit
06-04-2009, 01:00
Ah didnt think of that. But then again if your taloring your list to have that setup against the thirster, i would imagine he wont have the blade lol.

Would be funny though lol.

EvC
06-04-2009, 01:05
Heck, why waste all that offensive power? Charge the BT with a HE Noble on a Giant Eagle-- tie him up all game. Meanwhile, you've now got a points advantage on the rest of the battle, as your 120 points fights his 550 to a stalemate...

Until the turn that the Noble fails to wound the Bloodthirster, and is autobroken through terror/outnumber.

Whoops.

Bies21
06-04-2009, 02:14
Do the scribes get PD for boundspells used?

Chicago Slim
06-04-2009, 13:19
Ah didnt think of that. But then again if your taloring your list to have that setup against the thirster, i would imagine he wont have the blade lol.


It's not that tailored-- I often bring a noble on an eagle, as a cheap and highly-mobile option for march-blocking, artillery control, killing fast cav or giving an edge to a fight... The dragon armor itself is a 6-point, standard equipment armor, so EVERY fighting elf character wears a set (unless he's wearing magic armor, which a cheap throwaway like this noble is unlikely to do...)

I'll happily grant the point about losing to outnumbering if he doesn't cause a wound to the BT-- though he has a good chance of outrunning the BT, in which case he'll either rally and come back to do it again, or else the BT will spend yet another turn chasing him down...

For 120 points, still not bad...

EndlessBug
06-04-2009, 13:48
Yea, the noble would clearly lose to the BT due to outnumbered by a terror causer. However if you took a BSB noble on a great eagle with a BSB and war banner/battle banner you'll be causing a Ld test at -d6 (BT gets outnumber:1, BSB gets Std + battle banner : 1+d6) each turn, killing it quite quickly. Furthermore this BSB noble would come in handy in many other situations too, adding 1+d6 + kills to any combat within 20" of the noble is fairly nifty.

jeuna
06-04-2009, 14:52
just wondering what if the BT doesn't attack the character, but the star dragon instead? It wouldn't have much probs with that i assume ?
Same for the noble on the eagle, just get your wounds from the eagle.
(I dunno the chars of the star dragon, so if its immune to fire ...)

EvC
06-04-2009, 15:40
If you care to take the time to read the thread, you will have your answer jeuna. SilentStalker even went to the trouble of quoting the rule that matters.

Also CS, 120 points for a Noble on a Great Eagle? Never realised High Elf characters were so cheap... now, the Noblr setup with BSB as described sounds pretty awesome, but remember it's a HUGE risk if you don't know if your opponent has the flaming sword or not. Also remember if you're tailoring a list to fight Daemons, he'll probably be doing the same to you. So no flaming axe. But next time I use High Elves i might add this BSB to my force... if only I actually had a great eagle model!

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 16:04
Ah didnt think of that. But then again if your taloring your list to have that setup against the thirster, i would imagine he wont have the blade lol.

Would be funny though lol.

I wouldnt say its tailoring your list as its a normal set of armor not a magic set :) So Most HE heroes and Lords can have it


Do the scribes get PD for boundspells used?

He does indeed, the evil little.....


just wondering what if the BT doesn't attack the character, but the star dragon instead? It wouldn't have much probs with that i assume ?
Same for the noble on the eagle, just get your wounds from the eagle.
(I dunno the chars of the star dragon, so if its immune to fire ...)

The dragon armor affects both the rider and his mount so the Star dragon would also be immune to flaming attacks :)

jeuna
06-04-2009, 17:11
sorry, i read the thread minus the quotes

SiNNiX
06-04-2009, 17:27
Hardest to defeat:

A wood elf veteran who knows exactly how to fully bring out his army's potential. There's honestly nothing better than that but too few WE players, or any players for that matter, know how to completely utilize the WE army.

SiNNiX
06-04-2009, 17:28
Do the scribes get PD for boundspells used?

Yes they do.

Chicago Slim
06-04-2009, 19:27
Also CS, 120 points for a Noble on a Great Eagle? Never realised High Elf characters were so cheap...

Yeah, I was misremembering his cost (I had 60 points in my head-- he's actually 85...)

So, the way I usually field him would be:
Noble (85) with dragon armor (6) and lance (4) OR great weapon (8), on a Great Eagle (50), for a total of 145-149 points.

Equipped as a War Banner BSB, add 105 points to that-- by that point, yes he'll rock a BloodThirster who has flaming attacks, but he's also pretty expensive, and gives up an extra 100 points if he blows it...

Again, though, *neither* of these builds (with or without BSB) is at all tailored to facing Daemons: I routinely include a noble on a bird, with no magic weapons, in my take-all-comers HE lists. The flexibility of flying 20" in and turning the tide of a fight, for <150 points, is great stuff... and the Battle Banner is so completely game-changing that I often bring it, and sometimes bring it on a guy on an eagle...


NB: I'd forgotten the bit about how Greater Daemons are both characters AND monsters, and that they therefore count their US based on their number of wounds (unlike all other characters), rather than being US 3... So, yeah, the BT will get outnumbering, despite the bird-rider being US 4...

It still annoys me a little, that Treeman Ancients have LESS US than Treemen... :)

Staurikosaurus
06-04-2009, 21:24
Also CS, 120 points for a Noble on a Great Eagle? Never realised High Elf characters were so cheap... now, the Noble setup with BSB as described sounds pretty awesome, but remember it's a HUGE risk if you don't know if your opponent has the flaming sword or not.

The gifts of a daemon aren't magic items. Couldn't you just ask to see your opponent's list to see if your tactic is viable before the game as the gifts should be as obvious as whether or not a model has a shield?

SiNNiX
06-04-2009, 23:12
The gifts of a daemon aren't magic items. Couldn't you just ask to see your opponent's list to see if your tactic is viable before the game as the gifts should be as obvious as whether or not a model has a shield?

Yeah but that's a HUGE weenie move and your player will definately have no respect for you after the game lol. People see Daemonic Gifts as hidden items usually in games, they're just considered not magic items in game terms when it comes to items that nullify, destroy, empower, etc. magic items.

EvC
06-04-2009, 23:21
The rules don't make a commentary on whether you get to see magic items let alone Daemonic gifts or similar, so good luck on getting Daemon players to reveal that stuff voluntarily ;)

Spirit
07-04-2009, 00:10
The rules don't make a commentary on whether you get to see magic items let alone Daemonic gifts or similar, so good luck on getting Daemon players to reveal that stuff voluntarily ;)

Is there not a ruling saying that models must show types of equipment? So as long as you model a hand weapon you can have any type? Maybe im just imagining it.

EvC
07-04-2009, 12:42
There is a rule to that effect, but that doesn't really apply to Daemonic Gifts, which are counted as magic items (only without any of their disadvantages, of course).

Whitesox
07-04-2009, 16:51
There is a rule to that effect, but that doesn't really apply to Daemonic Gifts, which are counted as magic items (only without any of their disadvantages, of course).

dont you just love daemons... :rolleyes:

Staurikosaurus
07-04-2009, 18:24
How exactly are they magic items when they can duplicate ALL of them and they can't be effected by spells such as Law of Gold?


Yeah but that's a HUGE weenie move and your player will definately have no respect for you after the game

Which will mean a lot coming from a daemon player :rolleyes:

The only "hidden" items in games (and this isn't everywhere mind you, many places play with open lists) are magic items. Daemon lists don't have any. They have magical attacks but no magic items. Ask to see the player's list.

SiNNiX
07-04-2009, 19:11
I would never refuse another player looking at my list, even if they want to see magic items. If it's that big of a deal to them to get an advantage then have at it, I'll just lose a little respect for them - no biggie. And I also do that with all of my armies, not just my daemons. I never ask to see what the enemy has just because it kinda ruins their element of surprise and I love a good fight. =)

EvC
07-04-2009, 19:57
How exactly are they magic items when they can duplicate ALL of them and they can't be effected by spells such as Law of Gold?

I don't have the book on me, but that's the point: they're basically magic items, except no disadvantages, so you can duplicate them, they're undestroyable, etc. Stupid, yes.


The only "hidden" items in games (and this isn't everywhere mind you, many places play with open lists) are magic items. Daemon lists don't have any. They have magical attacks but no magic items. Ask to see the player's list.

The rules don't cover what is and what isn't hidden, so it's only if the daemon player agrees to play it your way. As a good deal of Daemon players are WAAC (At least, those whom you would really need to see the list for), they'll probably disagree. I'd rather have an easy life, me ;)

SiNNiX
07-04-2009, 22:19
EvC: I love what you've done with your sig and if it weren't considered cheating or whatever, I'd probably do the same with my BT or TK. :) Props!