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deneg88
04-04-2009, 12:05
Hey I dont know if this has been asked yet but are there any plans to release a boxset in the near future with the new WOTR rulebook, like they did with AOBR for the last 40k rulebook??

Spider-pope
04-04-2009, 12:14
At the moment, no. However if what ive been hearing is true, if they retire the Mines of Moria set it will be replaced by a WOTR set not a SBG one.

takaetun
04-04-2009, 12:34
...Which would be an insanely stupid move on so many levels. I would say that there will be no WotR box set - the game is based on huge formations of cheap infantry, which are already readily available, and SBG is based on small skirmish games, resplendant with epic heroes like the fellowship, who are in the MoM box as very low quality plastic minatures - you can't do a low quality mass infantry or cavalry box, because the models are already at that level.

Spider-pope
04-04-2009, 12:42
If (and its a big if) a WOTR does take over, chances are it will be close to what the Lord of the Rings starter box sets were originally, with units taken direct from their plastic box set rather than having a new set of models produced. Cheap way to do it as well for GW.
But again, at the moment its only an IF for whether MoM is going to go or not. It will likely stick around until it at least has made back the cost of its molds.

takaetun
04-04-2009, 12:55
WotR was meant to be a gimmick - the trays were meant to be one off moulds, like the Master of the Ravenwing, but proved so popular that they kept making the damn things. WotR is very low down on GW's priorities, and wouldn't be replacing a box - there's no gain to be made, only the loss of prospective SBG customers - its a great way of drawing people into LotR, who then move to WotR. Most people started SBG so they can relive some of the greatest moments from the movies and book, not so they can play massed battles.

dtjunkie19
04-04-2009, 13:15
I must disagree that WotR was meant to be a gimmick. If anything SGB was the game that tried to earn a profit off of its name. Obviously though, it failed to gain as much ground as GW probably hoped for with a strong license name like LotR. WotR was meant to appeal to everyone. First off 40k players who are looking for something different, more "tactical", like fantasy. Fantasy players who are a bit fed up with the "clunky" nature of the game (words in quotes not mine, stuff I've quoted from players in the store by me) and want to try something more streamlined, and SBG players that either just love LotR so will play any decent game set in its world, or love SBG but just cant find games.

WotR is an incredibly well made ruleset. With the exception of very few things and a few mistakes that can easily be faq-ed everything is pretty unambiguous and easy to understand, and best of all, usually makes sense. Every game of mine so far was fun, challenging, and laid back (no arguments over rules). Now once and awhile we forgot about a rule or misquoted another, but now that everyone will have the rulebook and can read it on their own time things like that will die down.

So I think WotR is actually GW's way of trying to ungimmick something that is naturally gimmicky due to its licensed nature. I really hope it keeps this popularity streak its seemed to be getting. So far so good. The GW here in NYC has been out of movement trays almost constantly since releasing them, and I heard yesterday that they wont be getting many more for a bit because they are selling much faster than GW factories are making them. :D

Spider-pope
04-04-2009, 14:33
WotR was meant to be a gimmick - the trays were meant to be one off moulds, like the Master of the Ravenwing, but proved so popular that they kept making the damn things. WotR is very low down on GW's priorities, and wouldn't be replacing a box - there's no gain to be made, only the loss of prospective SBG customers - its a great way of drawing people into LotR, who then move to WotR. Most people started SBG so they can relive some of the greatest moments from the movies and book, not so they can play massed battles.

You are extremely misinformed. War of the Ring is an attempt to recreate the SBG in a more profitable form. With an emphasis on larger scaled battles, players need to purchase more mini's = more money for GW. It is not intended as a gimmick, it is intended as an eventual replacement as the primary LOTR ruleset. Apocalypse is a gimmick, but WOTR is not LOTR Apocalypse it is a full ruleset. Saying WOTR is the equivalent of SBG Apocalypse is like saying 40k is the Apocalypse of Necromunda.

It's design was deliberately intended to appeal to the players of Warhammer and 40k who play massed battles. SBG just does not work well on a non-skirmish scale.

WOTR is very high on GW's priorities, it is the SBG that is being scaled down. Which is why there is no SBG Elf sourcebook on its way anymore, and any future rules releases are planned as WD articles.

As for the movement trays, again as dtjunkie19 said they were never intended as a one off, but as an additional revenue source. And they have proved extremely successful. Although the lack of supply is less due to not keeping up with making the trays, but rather the packaging for them. At the moment new supplies are heading to stores in clear Mail order bags just to get them out to customers as quickly as possible.

As for bringing new people in, virtually everyone who has tried WOTR has said how much they prefer it to the SBG. New players, the lifeblood of the hobby, are not looking at SBG as a starting point anymore. Instead they are writing lists of all the things they want to use in WOTR. The loss of new SBG players is negligable because the number of new players has been falling every year since the last movie. Word of mouth about the difficulty of finding a game has hampered veterans from starting the system, and kiddies generally like the big stuff.
Marketing wise its easier to sell- which do you think will appeal more to kiddies with expendable income? Aragorn fighting 5 ringwraiths at Weathertop or a replication of the Battle of Pelannor fields with multiple mumakils running around?

WillFightForFood
04-04-2009, 15:05
Deleted Post

Spider-pope
04-04-2009, 15:11
I have a few reliable sources. More than that i am unwilling to say as i have no wish to cause them any professional difficulties.

takaetun
05-04-2009, 00:27
Would you like me to refer you to the email GW regional sent out, at least to the Sydney Battle Bunker, which said words to the effect of "Due to their extraordinarily popular take up, the War of the Ring Infantry Movement Trays and Cavalry Movement Trays, originally intended to be a splash releash, will now become a permanent fixture in all Games Workshop stores."?

This was based on the fact that WHFB makes about half as much as 40K, and SBG makes about half as much as WHFB. On this logic, WotR was expected to not be nearly as successful, and, thus, is not "very high on GW's list of priorities", as LotR makes very little money. If it were such a big focus, we would'nt have IG coming out a month after eclipsing it in its massive, tank shaped shadow.

Oh, and those 'figures' were from a press release last year to investors, so, yes, I do have backing for all my claims, not just "Oh, I know people and don't want to upset their working lives."

Reinholt
05-04-2009, 01:19
With that said, this is the same company that hasn't been able to figure out that it's a monumentally stupid idea to charge people to look at their marketing for the past 5 years (White Dwarf, since they stopped putting rules in it, or much substantial content).

Judging anything from GW's original business intent is a dangerous business, given how off target they have been on things in the past few years.

From what I understand from all the investor relations publications, the real story if you look at year over year changes is this:

- 40k is strong
- Fantasy is slowly declining
- LotR SBG is also declining rapidly as the movie bubble bursts

So five years ago it was 40k > SBG > Fantasy, and now it is 40k >>> Fantasy > SBG.

Now, with that said, GWs overall sales have been declining in terms of purchases for a long time; this has been disguised by price increases making revenue seem constant, but the raw number of customers has not been increasing.

This is where WotR could turn out to be a huge blessing. It is a far, far better system than either SBG or Fantasy (I am the person dtjunkie referred to as calling fantasy "clunky"); the game has been embraced as both high quality and fun by the vast majority of serious players I know, and has the potential to draw in new players and players from the other systems.

Ironically, it is the most vitriolic and crusty of bitter veterans who are refusing to embrace WotR (the same ones who crapped non-stop on SBG until people basically stopped playing it in most GW stores, though to be fair, the rules were average - great for small engagements, but as things scale up, it gets tangled up fast), which is probably is a good thing for WotR; those are the people that make games less than fun to play.

All in all, I was both extremely surprised by the quality of the game and the number of people jumping into the system. So whether GW planned it or not (and I suspect they planned for it to be decent but not nearly as big as it's turning out to be, from what investor relations has told me), they've lucked into something truly great by having the chance to write a core rule system from scratch using their best ideas.

WillFightForFood
05-04-2009, 03:23
Deleted Post

Reinholt
05-04-2009, 03:42
Again, direct me to your sources on this. I hear and see this a lot on here, but I've yet to see any hard data to back it up. As far as the movie bubble bursting goes I would speculate that ship has probably long sailed, seeing as how the movies came out over five years ago now. Then again, it's only speculation.

What I am saying is not hearsay.

You can find sales numbers to back up the falling customer base trend in most of the annual reports. The 2007 report has a nice chart for it on page 4, where you can find the following numbers for the few years prior (I am going to ignore 2008 & 2009 so far because of the recession and swing in value of the pound, which would need to be adjusted for, and I'm uninterested in doing right now):

Page 4 - Sales:

2003 - 129.1
2004 - 151.8
2005 - 136.6
2006 - 115.2
2007 - 111.5

All figures in millions of British pounds.

When you factor in the fact that the average price per item for GW merchandise has gone up for most of those years, you can see that it is very clear GW is losing customers. Revenue should be bottoming out and then rising again through 2008 and 2009 (after adjusting for exchange rates). However, if your average product price is rising, this also means you have fewer sales.

Also, the commentary on which lines are selling comes from speaking with investor relations. I mean, just look at the sales numbers above; there's a huge boost in sales throughout the release of the LotR movies. If the commentary is that 40k is always solid, and fantasy was passed by LotR SBG but now has passed it back, but both are far behind 40k, that seems to fit pretty well with the sales trend seen above (the largest drop-off would be the LotR bubble bursting).

I'm not talking out of my ass here. I'm a finance guy with a mathematics and statistics background; I've read the annual reports, I get the investor relations stuff, I talk to people on the ground, and I've talked to people at corporate. What I said above is the picture that I've seen coming out of GW above; I'm not crazy about their management (it's poor, to be blunt, but still better than most gaming companies) and I think they make bad operations and financing decisions, but their core products are strong and they have a dominant position in their niche. Their main threats are from outside market segments eating their entire customer base (shifting consumer preference) or management doing foolish things that are not well suited to their business. This is typical of a lot of small companies in niche markets, to be fair, but it is what it is.

WillFightForFood
05-04-2009, 04:12
Deleted Post

Reinholt
05-04-2009, 04:21
Well, lying to me would have been a criminal act by investor relations (this is not to say that it's stopped companies before - see Enron or Worldcom), so when they say the air went out of the LotR bubble, I am inclined to believe them. There's a lot of noise in month to month numbers as well; that holds true across most retail companies, not just GW. Year over year comparisons are almost always more meaningful, and the general trend is clear (there can be exceptions here and there, but if there were enough of them to matter, it would change the general trend!); the air went out of the LotR bubble. The larger question, for me, was also if WFB was going to survive as a fully functional stand-alone product given how clunky the rules were becoming. I still have my doubts there.

What I find interesting about WotR, however, is that it might shed some light on why the air went out of the LotR bubble:

SBG was made for re-enacting the small-scale battles in the movies. It fit the first movie well. It fit the second movie less well, and the third even less. WotR, on the other hand, allows people to fight almost any major engagement throughout the entirety of Tolkien's background, and thanks to the design of the game, to fight any number of smaller secondary engagements small enough that they wouldn't merit a formal mention, but are totally plausible to be playing.

Skirmishes around the misty mountains between dwarves and goblins, or humans and orcs, the battle in the rulebook where Rohan is skirmishing with Isenguard before the battle of Helms Deep, and any of the smaller engagements going on throughout the modern timeline. It seems to be taking off.

Which tells me something about the LotR bubble, if sales are positive and the game has legs:

The problem was not that LotR was purely a fad, it was that the game was too limited to reach broad segments of players who wanted a wargame, not a duel game; this is not to say SBG is bad, just that in the same way as Mordheim and Necromunda before it, it was limited.

I think it is more appropriate to say that WotR is to SBG what Fantasy is to Mordheim, rather than using the apocalypse metaphor (which I never agreed with - 40k is already a full scale wargame, not an individual model skirmish game, after all...).

Lotoc_Sabbath
05-04-2009, 07:21
Sorry but who is saying of replacing mines of moria. Wotr is a complete new game u can't compare w40k and fantasy as u can't compare sbg with wotr or they don't to trhe new box set which is what I think or they do it they will not replace anything!

Jind_Singh
05-04-2009, 08:42
Wow, some pretty cutting words of debate on this thread!
Just based at what I've seen at my local stores here in BC, Canada, WOTR isn't a replacement for LOTR - but the 4th game system.
Having said this I can see it being the more dominant force as it's appeal lies in many arenas - it's a perfect cross over for those 40K players looking for that break into fanatasy, and will allow those fanatasy players who kind of wish for the faster paced games of 40k but without having to travel to Sc-fi realms of gaming.
And though it's early days I've already seen a lot of Lord of the Rings interest generally, so much so that both LOTR and WOTR games nights are getting regular gamers again.
As for wether they will bring out a mega box, who knows! My reasoning is maybe no, with both 40K and fantasy part of the reason they can condense the rule books is they cut out the fluff sections in the books.
With WOTR there isn't really fluff it's all rules, then army lists, then scenerios - how would they condense it enough to make it fit into a small handbook?
Also most of the figures are already in boxed sets, maybe they might re-introduce battallion boxes for them? Right now the only ones I've seen in stores are the Easterlings and Rohan from the older days.
Either way it's looking like it's going to be here to stay for a while. and these upcomming months will be crucial in seeing how the new system fares.
theres always going to be haters - but theres haters for almost everything out there - but you can't go wrong with a new game system - brings in new blood which will keep my hobby & passion alive and kicking! Whats life without my regular thursday fantasy games (and now my wednesday WOTR!)

Kordos
05-04-2009, 08:51
Would you like me to refer you to the email GW regional sent out, at least to the Sydney Battle Bunker, which said words to the effect of "Due to their extraordinarily popular take up, the War of the Ring Infantry Movement Trays and Cavalry Movement Trays, originally intended to be a splash releash, will now become a permanent fixture in all Games Workshop stores."?
Splash release =/= gimmick - there have been plenty of splash releases for 40k and fantasy as well. Also awhile ago a splash release meant it would only be available for a short time BUT now it means only available in STORES for a short time then mail order only



This was based on the fact that WHFB makes about half as much as 40K, and SBG makes about half as much as WHFB. On this logic, WotR was expected to not be nearly as successful, and, thus, is not "very high on GW's list of priorities", as LotR makes very little money. If it were such a big focus, we would'nt have IG coming out a month after eclipsing it in its massive, tank shaped shadow.

LoTR has made quite a bit of money for them - and still does - I'd like to see some figures for your talk
Also the 40k link is fairly stupid - In the last few years GW has been releasing stuff all the time, by your logic every time GW release B it is because they don't care about A
And finally for this point - So GW don't care about WoTR and it is low on their priorities ? and yet the go through the process of writing rules, playtesting those rules and doing up a rule book for sale also making new models, repackaging old models and releasing more models later on down the track - yeah really sounds 'gimmicky' and 'low on their priorities' - that fact that you seem to obviously believe this is fairly outstanding - I mean what a waste of money for a company to do something like that.




Oh, and those 'figures' were from a press release last year to investors, so, yes, I do have backing for all my claims, not just "Oh, I know people and don't want to upset their working lives."
please show us, links too if you have them

dtjunkie19
05-04-2009, 10:42
And even if the first thought of some GW managment team was to use WotR as a gimmick to get more LotR sales...they messed up...In a good way. The infantry and cavalry movement trays at my local GW? Infantry trays have been completely out of stock for the last few weeks and none more are supposedly coming for a while. And I still see close to half of the people with rings or starting rings still with very few or no trays yet. So demand isnt dying down anytime soon. As for cav they have some but they also have been selling out easily within a few days.

Plus, without any figures to back me, I will venture and say that the overall approval of the system by new players is 90%+. I have not seen one person who has played a full game and said they haven't LOVED it. I know personally even the most one sided games of mine so far were 100x the fun anything 40k has provided me with.

Now yes this is all personal opinion but my observation is that my feelings are very much shared shared by others. :D

darkstar
05-04-2009, 12:04
I was surprised by the WotR release not coming later in the year with a release of a new starter box in the next month. It did lead me to believe that GW are being more cautious with the release than was warranted. I thought the same thing about the model release alongside the book. Two plastic boxes is far too conservative for a release like this. While the book and the movement trays have been massively popular, I think they should have invested in more infantry kits. The ent is nice, but how many people are really going to buy more than one? At least the fiscal results for this quarter will be a clear indication of the popularity of the new system.

However, I wouldn't rule out GW knocking together a mini rulebook and putting a boat load of infantry in there, one monster, and two cavalry companies each would set it right up.

Rirekon
05-04-2009, 16:34
With the exception of movement trays LotR (SBG) and WotR use the same models - how on earth do you expect GW to differentiante the two sales wise?

Jind_Singh
06-04-2009, 04:28
but don't forget everyone - tons of new command group boxes, plastic ent, army of the dead accompnied the relase
Theres plastic elves on the way too - including plastic cavalry

not to mention that with new imperial guard for 40k coming, new empire models coming out in june, and having just redone orks for 40k in jan, and lizzies for fantasy in feb they are prob over-taxed in all departments!

i was the local store on launch day and there were a lot of players snapping up the rule books - and about 6 people turned up today for a WOTR battle.
granted they all have only between 300-600 points each, but it's only early days.

watch this be the game of the summer!

Go Misty Mountains!