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Broadside
15-12-2005, 10:05
ive noticed alot of Pre-Heresy armys showin up recently 1 of the burton staff members has a Pre-Heresy iron warrior army and i know some 1 else wants to do a Pre-Heresy tousand son army.
so i want to try and build a Pre-Heresy death guard army all i need to work out how to do it thought the marien codex with which triats to use any help and ideas would be great

arkbird
15-12-2005, 10:55
The major drawback should be Eye to Eye or Flesh over steel

The Trait Advantages should be No Mercy, No Respite and Take the Fight to Them

The Minor Drawback should be Death Before Dishonour

The pre-heresy Death guard had to be as adapt at using pitols and chainswords as at the bolters. The primarch believed in the primacy of infantry over transports and tanks because he grew-up without the ability to use machines. Becuase, the primarch would stress smashing the enemy after they were broke by the death guard line the Death Before Dishonour makes sense as they didn't want to displease their leader.

Captain Ardias
15-12-2005, 11:01
I had a thread a while ago, where I decided to do a pre-heresy death guard army try looking there, if it's still there.

Asher
15-12-2005, 11:53
As traits I'd recomend:

Trust your battle brothers: True Grit & Counterstrike.

IMHO this trait fits perfectly for a pre-heresy Death Guard. True grit is esencally what they have as CSM and trained for centuries.

As second trait I'd recomend:
Either Clense and Purify or Never Dispair.

Broadside
15-12-2005, 18:33
sounds good guys ill put togeather a marien to see what colours i need to use as i know there white with green trim (i think gotta check WD for that)

Asher
15-12-2005, 18:41
sounds good guys ill put togeather a marien to see what colours i need to use as i know there white with green trim (i think gotta check WD for that)

Generally white with camo-green shoulderpads and metal backpack.
There was a great DG army on B&C-forum, which is unfortuantelly down at the moment.

arkbird
15-12-2005, 19:35
If you want any more information on the pre-heresy death guard, check WD 264. The fluff in there was the reason I suggested those traits and disadvantages.

highmarshaldave
15-12-2005, 21:17
Yeah, I'd go with cleanse and purify as the second trait. Also, if you limited yourself to maybe one dev squad (since they don't use much heavies). Actualy, all 3 major drawbacks would be aplicable to a death guard army. . .

Just a thought.

Dave out.

Nazguire
16-12-2005, 02:08
They also operated in 7 Legions, in units of 7, according to the IA. Note that this was before the turning to Nurgle. So Tactical Squads should be 1 Sergeant, 6 Space Marines.

Equipment should be boltgun and close combat weapon obviously, no heavy weaponry (or bare minimum, apart from Devastators) and something really Death Guard-y for the close combat weaponry, probably power fists for the Veterans Sergeants and standard PF+SB or Thunder Hammer and Shield for Terminators. I can't see Death Guard swishing about all gracefully with Lightning Claws for some reason, either Pre Heresy or after the Heresy :eyebrows:

Bare minimum on Vehicles, which will be helped by the Traits. Basically really heavy on Infantry, and perhaps a Predator Destructor or a Vindicator to emphasise the 'get in close and stay there' endurance philosophy of Mortarion.

bigred
16-12-2005, 04:10
Ahhh, my favorite topic.

I finished up a 2500 pt pre-heresy DeathGuard army several months ago, after going bit fluff crazy.

Here is my take on it.

First, go get Index Astartes Volume 3 which has the Death Guard article in it as well as their pre-heresy color scheme.

Then, feel free to pick up the Horus Heresy art books from Black Library as they are filled with pre-heresy Deathguard imagery as well.

--------------------------------------

I went with the following fluff goals:

The basics fluff goals (taken from pouring over every bit of fluff i've found going back to the early 90s stuffs) goes like this:

Death Guard Legion (pre-heresy, loyalists)

-Known for their "toughness" and endurance: often won victories through sheer perseverence.

-Known for their tactical flexibility (no dedicated tactical or assault squads, each individual marine was expected to perform both duties)

-little reliance on exotic and or heavy equipment (tanks): the legion was focussed upon infantry

-legion partially compensated for infantry focus by making the most use of Terminator armor which was used in larger numbers and mixed more freely within the legion than in any other legion.

-preferred weapons (from artwork: multi-melta/plasma rifle/plasma cannon/bolter family

-distrust of psychics

-common use of the number 7 (hint,hint)

----------------------------

With that in mind I built this army:

General background notes:
I'm using the new SM codex as the basis for the army, and use the following doctrines to represent Mortarion's Legion:
Trust in you Battle-Brothers (true-grit,counterattack)
Cleanse and Purify (2x special weapons in tac squads instead of heavy weapons)
Flesh over Steel (very few heavy tanks)
Have Faith in Suspicion (no librarians)

Army organization: all squads of 7 with limited vehicle support:

Master (Furious Charge)
Lightning claw (represented by a modified typhus scythe)
Bolt Pistol
Combat Shield
Adamantium Mantle

Command Squad (x6, Furious Charge)
Vet Sgt. (Power Fist/Bolt Pistol)
Company Champion (powersword,bolt pistol, combat shield)
Apothacary (bolt pistol/CCW)
Standard Bearer (bolt pistol/CCW/ Company banner)
2x marines (bolt pistol/CCW)

Terminator squad (x7)
Sgt(PW)
cyclone
hvy flamer

Terminator squad (x7)
Sgt(PW)
cyclone
hvy flamer

Tactical Squad (x7, True Grit,Countercharge)
Vet Sgt (powerfist/bolter)
plasma rifle x2

Tactical Squad (x7, True Grit,Countercharge)
Vet Sgt (powerfist/bolter)
plasma rifle x2

Tactical Squad (x7, True Grit,Countercharge)
Vet Sgt (powerfist/bolter)
plasma rifle x2

Devastator Squad (x7)
Multi-melta x4

Devastator Squad (x7)
Multi-melta x4

Scout Squad (x7)
Sniper Rifle x6
Heavy Bolter

Land Raider
Land Speeder x2 (Multi-melta, Hvy Flamer)
Dreadnought (las-cannon/missile launcher)
Rhino (assigned to various units)

-------------------------

General observations

The tac squads are tough as nails and normally can take substancial casualties and still dish it out in assault because of the true-grit and the vet sarge. Double plasma also alows for highly lethal rapid firing within 12" while riding in a rhino.

The command squad is expensive, but tears a path of destruction if it reaches enemy lines. The standard bearer in particular keeps the battle line from running (Ld:10 with a re-roll is very reliable)

I found after several battles, that 2 dev squads with quad Multi-Meltas are far cheaper and more reliable that trying to use lots of Terminators. Its an added bonus that few people are used to seeing such a concentration of MMs and it really spooks them. (come on baby, bring them tanks closer). The trick is to not worry to much about trying to move up with 12" for the added +d6 armor penetration. The S:8 combined with AP:1 special rules make them lethal enough out to 24", and makes marine squads (of any type) just go away.

The army in general has to close with the enemy to fight effectively, using the rhino and LR for transport, then dismounting an using them as cover.

At range, only the LR, dread, scouts and cyclones can shoot over 24" (the speeders, terminators can deepstrike)


I designed it using the Horus Hersy art books and the Index astartes articles as my guide, so I've tried to stick as close to the fluff as possible. Its definately a challenge to play feeling like a hybrid of Space Wolves and Salamanders, but is great fun!

-bigred

Broadside
16-12-2005, 08:49
First, go get Index Astartes Volume 3 which has the Death Guard article in it as well as their pre-heresy color scheme.

Then, feel free to pick up the Horus Heresy art books from Black Library as they are filled with pre-heresy Deathguard imagery as well.

-bigred

cheers dude
it was the art work in the said books that sort of made me wanna build this army. its gonna be small bout 400pts to start any way but im aimin to make in about 1500-2000pts in the end

Icarus
16-12-2005, 14:41
This (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/painting/pre_heresy/2.htm) may inspire you painting-wise. Sounds like a cool project, good luck!

Latro_
16-12-2005, 22:28
All this raises an interesting point about the chapter badge,,, namely what was the original. I'v been playing 40k for near on 10 years and the Death Guard chapter symbol has always been the three skulls shaped as the mark of nurgle. This couldent of been the symbol pre heresy...?!?!? maybe a gw oversight.

Asher
16-12-2005, 22:51
All this raises an interesting point about the chapter badge,,, namely what was the original. I'v been playing 40k for near on 10 years and the Death Guard chapter symbol has always been the three skulls shaped as the mark of nurgle. This couldent of been the symbol pre heresy...?!?!? maybe a gw oversight.

Not it wasn't. The pre-heresy symbol was a single skull inside a circle. On the left and right side of the circle were 3 spikes (or thorns) each.

cthorpe
16-12-2005, 22:57
Hi there,

According to the preheresy picture in Index Astartes III the chapter badge looks like a single large white skull superimposed on top of a black iron halo that is painted onto a white shoulderpad.

The armour is mostly white with green shoulder pad trim..

Hope this helps,

Carl

oops beated to it by asher!!

Brother Othorio
16-12-2005, 23:55
and just to show off my totally useless store of trivia: prior to the IA the pre-heresy badge was a skull with 6 lightning bolts eminating from it (3 to the left, 3 to the right, if i ever get round to doing some pre/mid heresy DG i'll probably put that on the banners and the 6 pronged halo on the shoulderpads)

bigred
17-12-2005, 01:34
I concur with the others,

The original chapter symbol is a single skull inside of a circle. This circle has three "spikes/rays/lightnng bolts" emanating from each side of the circle (left,right). The center spike of each set of three is a little longer than the other two.

I recommend making a sheet of these logos in Adobe Illustrator in a variety of scales (shoulderpad sized, to side of a land raider sized). Then you can run them off on decal paper and cut them out as needed. That is what I did. It gives your models a nice clean and identical symbol, that really makes the army look sharp.

ps, If anyone wants mine logo sheet, give me a private message with your email and I will send away.

-bigred

Latro_
17-12-2005, 02:16
How have i missed this before?
bizarre. I'll look it up when its not 2:30am :P

Broadside
18-12-2005, 09:17
thanks alot every 1
just out of wonder when the death guard turned was there any of th DG still followin the emporer or was it the compleate Legion that went to the dark side?

Kahadras
18-12-2005, 09:48
If I remember there was a company of Death Guard who remained loyal to the Emperor. They were the ones who brought him news of Horus's betrayal at the start of the rebellion. After that they disappeared from history. It is not known if they were executed by the loyalists, joined another legion, or cast their lot in with the traitor's and rejoined the Death Guard.

Kahadras

Icarus
18-12-2005, 11:49
Fluff is contradictory on whether they survived. There was a version that the Death Guard captain (and a number of marines from other legions) survived and spent his life trying to atone for the sins of his legion. Another says they were slaughtered to a man. Newer versions of the Heresy don't mention them at all.

Brother Othorio
18-12-2005, 19:37
Newer versions of the Heresy don't mention them at all.

:eyebrows: erm, under the most recent heresy fluff it was the warning that Captain Garro sent before seizing the Eisenstein that allowed 60+ companies of loyalist Death Guard, World Eaters and Emperors Children to survive the virus bombing of Istvan III (he warned them of the use of viral munitions, giving them time to seal their suits before the virus was released, the conventional bombardment still killed 30+ comanies tho)

Exterminatus
19-12-2005, 11:04
So did capt. Garro survive? I know the fluff says nobody knows, but what do you think?

Broadside
26-12-2005, 14:26
i dont know much about the death guard other than the stuff they released in the current codex and 2nd ed of the codex :confused:

Sigismundjimbob
27-03-2006, 13:42
Is this list supposed to be a pre heresy army used in current 40k?> if it is then all i fine and dandy. If it is set pre heresy and you are going by the fluff, then your force shouldnt include land speeders per se, as the imperium didnt make use of them until after the heresy.

Nathan

Rabid Bunny 666
27-03-2006, 13:56
they did, the tech got lost though

sin of damnation
28-03-2006, 04:02
At last! A valid reason for me to make a contribution to a discussion on this forum.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/mat_clifford/Painting%20and%20Modelling/DeathGuardPreHeresy/PHDG_Havocs1_1.jpg

At least I guess it's valid. Hope this helps.