PDA

View Full Version : Slanns large target or not?



Kill-Freedom
04-04-2009, 13:20
Slanns large target or not?

I dont believe they are, but others do, it doesnt stay they are in the rules, only thing its mentions is there line of sight is worked out as they are, but also states, the float up and down in there temple guard unit lol

So are they or arent they?

theunwantedbeing
04-04-2009, 13:24
They arent.
Otherwise they'de have the rule large target in their rules wouldn't they?

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 13:54
Not a large target, simply have LOS as though they were a large target when they cast spells.

nosferatu1001
04-04-2009, 15:04
And they do this regardless of them being in a TG unit.

AS such, for all intents and purposes, you cannot benefit from their Large Target as they only count as such for casting spells.

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 20:16
And they do this regardless of them being in a TG unit.

AS such, for all intents and purposes, you cannot benefit from their Large Target as they only count as such for casting spells.

WRONG! Seriously, it startles me how much confusion simple English sentences can cause! No offense to you, you mean the right thing, but say the wrong (really, itīs okay, it happens to me, too). This could be misread (AGAIN! I start thinking some people do this on purpose?)

The Slann NEVER is a large target or counts as such, and itīs got nothing to do with him casting spells or something. If you cast all the fluff aside, the relevant information is

"...the his (sic) line of sight is worked out as if the Slann Mage-Priest himself was a large target."

Well, Iīm not a native speaker, but to me, this strongly implies the Slann isnīt a Large Target (and therefore doesnīt have the rule on him, Dīoh)! Itīs only he can see as such. Couldnīt be easier if you ask me, but sometimes, itīs more exciting to misread something on purpose obviously.

Bodysnatcher
04-04-2009, 20:53
The Slaan sees and can be seen as if he was a large target.

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 21:07
The Slaan sees and can be seen as if he was a large target.

NO!

You did that on purpose didnīt you! It says THE HIS line of sight (with emphasis on "the his") and not "everybodyīs" line of sight! Donīt make me come over!

Kill-Freedom
04-04-2009, 22:18
They arent.
Otherwise they'de have the rule large target in their rules wouldn't they?

Thought so, but people still argue, with me, that they are LOL

Reinnon
04-04-2009, 22:28
NO!

You did that on purpose didnīt you! It says THE HIS line of sight (with emphasis on "the his") and not "everybodyīs" line of sight! Donīt make me come over!

a bit over eager...

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 22:55
The Slaan sees and can be seen as if he was a large target.

Again wrong. A Slann can see as though he was a large target. Why would this give other LOS to the Slann?

It also makes no sense because even if the Slann got the Large Target rule when casting spells, he'll just go back to not being a large target once the Lizardmen shooting phase starts. Fortunately this isn't how it's played at all.

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 22:58
a bit over eager...

Sorry, maybe I overreacted a bit, but seeing this right after my laborious explanation made my head burst into flames.

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:11
It really is that clear how this works. Whilst casting spells, and only whilst doing so, the Slann gains a Line of Sight equivalent to that of a Large Target. This condition fades between casting and dispelling triggers, and is not in effect at any other given moment in time, except during the casting process. As soon as the effects are resolved, it is removed.

Nowhere at all in the entire Lizardmen book states the Slann is a Large Target, neither does he gain that rule, he simply 'casts as.' If you're in a group that insists he can be targetted as a Large Target in return, then I suggest you explain calmly to them that the rules have changed, ask them to read the description once more and if they still insist on that stance, either stop playing them/that army, or take an Ethereal 2+ Ward vs. Missiles Slann and tell them to shove their missile weapons right up their palanquin :D

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 23:25
Whilst casting spells, and only whilst doing so, the Slann gains a Line of Sight equivalent to that of a Large Target.

Sigh... okay, this is my last shot at it. Please tell me where specifically this is stated?

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:31
It also makes no sense because even if the Slann got the Large Target rule when casting spells, he'll just go back to not being a large target once the Lizardmen shooting phase starts.

I'm afraid I don't have my Army Book with me right now, I leant it to the gaming group so they can read up on the new Lizardmen (to defend against teh Skinks :()

If someone could please provide the passage?

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 23:38
I'm afraid I don't have my Army Book with me right now, I leant it to the gaming group so they can read up on the new Lizardmen (to defend against teh Skinks :()

If someone could please provide the passage?

Actually, I did in my first post. It just says he works out THE HIS line of sight like a large target. Nothing about casting. Itīs unfortunate they say this right after the passage stating his casting habits, so everyone seems to think it has something to do with it, but if you simply read it word for word, castingīs mentioned nowhere. Iīd expected "during magic phase" or something to this effect to pop up somewhere otherwise.

Edit: The "..." stands for "because of this", which doesnīt have rule status.

Kill-Freedom
04-04-2009, 23:41
Slanns specail rule

Cold blooded, disciplines of ancients, unit strenght 3

Guardians - In a battle the slann mage-priest rides upon his floating stone palanquin, and is often accompanied by the utterly resloute sauras temple guard. The temple guard form a solid block of reptiliansinew through which an enemy wishing to attack the slann mage priest must first fight. When joined to a unit of temple guard, a slann is always placed within the second rank. See page 41 for further details of how to handle this. A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat. If the slann joins units other then temple guard it is place in the front

:p LOL, here it is

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 23:43
:p LOL, here it is

Yeah, thank you. Youīd be hard tried to make a rule out of it that he needs to cast to see like a large target. These two passages are clearly separated by a ".".

Edit: Btw way, thatīs not right, itīs "the HIS line of sight"! Thatīs important; donīt forget it!

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:44
Actually, I did in my first post. It just says he works out THE HIS line of sight like a large target. Nothing about casting. Itīs unfortunate they say this right after the passage stating his casting habits, so everyone seems to think it has something to do with it, but if you simply read it word for word, castingīs mentioned nowhere. Iīd expected "during magic phase" or something to this effect to pop up somewhere otherwise.

Edit: The "..." stands for "because of this", which doesnīt have rule status.

Which is exactly the same line of thinking that lead people to question wherever or not 'Starcrusher' or 'Rending Sword' from the Warriors of Chaos Army Book applied to all wounds caused by the model, and not specifically those caused by the weapon/rule themselves.

As the above quote shows, he may cast as a Large Target, which strongly implies 'in the magic phase,' and it is clear further still that he is not a Large Target, otherwise, it would explicitely state so in his rules and in the Army List to the rear of the book.

Necromancy Black
04-04-2009, 23:48
Wait wait wait, I remember this now. I forgot the exact wording, my fault.

Yeah, I also say that he has LOS as a large target all the time, but the shoddy written rules make it hard to say one way or another until an FAQ clears it all up.

My confusion came from the fact that magic is the only time having LOS as a large target is actually going to provide any difference, thus it's the same affect as only having increased LOs while casting.

Sorry if I confused you Shamfrit.

EDIT:: just to point it clear as day, the actually part of the rule that lets him ahve LOS as a large target makes no mention of when or while doing what, simply that he's treated as such.

Ultimate Life Form
04-04-2009, 23:51
Shamfrit, so you base it on fluff. My fluffy answer: So he canīt float up during other phases to have a look around? Fine. Have it your way. As promised, Iīll retire from this thread never to be seen again.

Shamfrit
04-04-2009, 23:54
Irrespective of that Ultimate, what possible use is there for a Slann to have LOS as LT outside of the Magic Phase?

Nurgling Chieftain
05-04-2009, 00:03
Irrespective of that Ultimate, what possible use is there for a Slann to have LOS as LT outside of the Magic Phase?You can actually give him a magic bow. :D (In fluff terms, I think his attendant would be using it.) I see no convincing reason to deny him the ability to fire it with LOS as a large target if somebody actually did, though I doubt anybody ever will.

I also think, though, that it is probably possible to construct a situation in which his LOS as large target would allow him - and, more notably, his unit of Temple Guard - to declare a charge they couldn't otherwise make.

Shamfrit
05-04-2009, 00:09
You two just managed to pursued me to make the Temple Guard unit even more borken, I salute thee :D

Nymie_the_Pooh
05-04-2009, 01:01
I might be way off base here, but the way I read it the line of sight rules as if he were a large target are always in effect. Here's where it explains why...

"A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit."

Which is the fluff reason, and here is where it states the rule...

"Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target."

That's all the highlighted part from Kill-Freedom's post. I felt the need to separate it as the second sentence is the actual rule part.

Now, it basically states that the LOS is worked out as if the Slann were a large creature. To me, this means that other units work out LOS as if the Slann were a large creature as well even though they can't single him out from the unit.

If this is true, then his unit could still be targeted by ranged attacks even if there is another unit between the attacker and the Slann's unit. This also means that a fully ranked unit of twenty night goblins with bows can all unload on his unit. They can see him and therefore fire at him, but they can not single him out from the unit so the shots would be randomized against the unit.

I could be way off, but that's the way it is written.

Kill-Freedom
05-04-2009, 01:02
You can actually give him a magic bow. :D (In fluff terms, I think his attendant would be using it.) I see no convincing reason to deny him the ability to fire it with LOS as a large target if somebody actually did, though I doubt anybody ever will.

I also think, though, that it is probably possible to construct a situation in which his LOS as large target would allow him - and, more notably, his unit of Temple Guard - to declare a charge they couldn't otherwise make.

Highlighted is a very good point ^^

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 02:54
It is implied that it is during the magic phase that the rule is in effect, but never directly stated.

also, there is a massive typo in the rules text.

It states EITHER:
(depending which word you delete)
1) THE line of sight is worked out as if the slann was a large target.
2) HIS(the slanns) line of sight is worked out as if the slann were a large target.

1 would imply everyone could see the slann as if he were a large target (see Disc of Tzeentch rules)
2 would imply only the slanns LOS is worked out as if he were a large target.



Lastly, this is largely meaningless because the slann cannot be picked out from his unit, as he is US3.

Nymie_the_Pooh
05-04-2009, 03:05
2) HIS(the slanns) line of sight is worked out as if the slann were a large target.

I don't have the book, so based what I said on the first point as the second point you bring up was not written in the post that contained the rule. If there is more to the rule written, then this may be the case. I don't know as I based what I said on what was posted. If all of the rule was posted, then this statement is false. Not once in what was posted does it state the model's line of sight, just line of sight in relation to the model.



Lastly, this is largely meaningless because the slann cannot be picked out from his unit, as he is US3.
Perhaps, but if he can be seen, and he is part of the unit, then can the unit be counted as partially visible and then able to be targeted by ranged weapons that otherwise couldn't target the unit?

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 03:09
Yeah, the rule states either (I don't have the book with me)

The his line of sight.....etc
or
His the line of sight....etc


depending which word you delete, you get a different sentence.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-04-2009, 03:13
depending which word you delete, you get a different sentence.Yeah, but technically, if you use "the", then the sentence is nonsensical.

Volrath
05-04-2009, 03:14
my god people, read the army book.

Why don't poeple ever read...

do oyu guys want him to be a large target, and thats why you keep arguing the point.....?

theunwantedbeing
05-04-2009, 03:18
The rules state:
his line of sight is worked out as if he himself was a large target

Nice and clear, his own line of sight is determined as if he was a large target, despite not being a large target so not +1 to hit with shooting and no getting to killing blow him if you have the correct vow and are a Bretonnian(as well as possibly a few other things).

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 03:18
my god people, read the army book.

Why don't poeple ever read...

do oyu guys want him to be a large target, and thats why you keep arguing the point.....?

I think the Slann is a large target for his purposes only,
but i can see where people are coming from if they believe otherwise.

;) nice username btw.


and Unwanted Being.... you deleted the "the" in front of the sentence. Although I do agree with you about the intent.

theunwantedbeing
05-04-2009, 03:22
I didn't delete the "the" at all.
I merely chose to not bother typing it as it's clearly a typo.

You also missed the "the" from my name as well, and decided it needed a space. :P

Or shall do these rules not apply to slann mage priests because in the rule he is referred to as a slann magwe-priest or a mage-priest, neither of which are a Slann Mage-Priest.

Nymie_the_Pooh
05-04-2009, 03:25
The rules state:
his line of sight is worked out as if he himself was a large target

Nice and clear, his own line of sight is determined as if he was a large target, despite not being a large target so not +1 to hit with shooting and no getting to killing blow him if you have the correct vow and are a Bretonnian(as well as possibly a few other things).

Thank you. All I had to work off for my responses before was this from earlier in the thread.



Slanns specail rule

Cold blooded, disciplines of ancients, unit strenght 3

Guardians - In a battle the slann mage-priest rides upon his floating stone palanquin, and is often accompanied by the utterly resloute sauras temple guard. The temple guard form a solid block of reptiliansinew through which an enemy wishing to attack the slann mage priest must first fight. When joined to a unit of temple guard, a slann is always placed within the second rank. See page 41 for further details of how to handle this. A Slann placed in the second rank, may still act as normal (he may cast spells, use magic items, act as the general, army banner bearer etc). The slann mage preist palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropiing back within the protection of his unit. Because of this, the line of sight is worked out as if the mage priest himself was a large target. In addition, as long as the slann has no enemy in base contact, it may still cast magic missiles, even if the unit is engaged in combat. If the slann joins units other then temple guard it is place in the front

According to that, then for line of sight purposes the Slann counts as a large target. That's why I was asking if there was more as I thought this was pretty clear. I wasn't about to download the book for a rules description and was under the impression that the quoted block was all there was.

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 03:36
I didn't delete the "the" at all.
I merely chose to not bother typing it as it's clearly a typo.

You also missed the "the" from my name as well, and decided it needed a space. :P

Or shall do these rules not apply to slann mage priests because in the rule he is referred to as a slann magwe-priest or a mage-priest, neither of which are a Slann Mage-Priest.

I also capitalized your name. (I think you deleted that part of my responce)

And do I believe the rule is ambiguous. I believe the 6th edition book had the same bit about the slaan rising up to cast spells before retreating to the Temple Gaurd unit, and should hardly be used as rules-text.

Read the post above mine.... he chose to delete the "his" as it was clearly a typo.

I just don't think that there is a warrented condescendance towards those who have confusion over this block of text. But I do agree with you on its meaning.

Necromancy Black
05-04-2009, 07:22
After what I posted this morning I did indeed find another use for the Slann's Large Target LOS: Seeing wizards so you cna make them discard 6's.

Nurgling Chieftain
05-04-2009, 08:30
That power doesn't require LOS.

cybercaine
05-04-2009, 08:36
Thank you. All I had to work off for my responses before was this from earlier in the thread.


According to that, then for line of sight purposes the Slann counts as a large target. That's why I was asking if there was more as I thought this was pretty clear. I wasn't about to download the book for a rules description and was under the impression that the quoted block was all there was.

When you quoted the rule, you didn't in fact quote the full rule which you need to do if you want to claim RAW which you are implying with your quotation. The sentence in question is: "Because of this, the his line of sight is worked out as if the Mage-Priest himself was a large target."
Now, this sentence is poorly worded. There is obviously a mistake, as it either says: "line of sight is worked out as if the Mage_priest himself was a large target", or it's intended as: "his line of sight is worked out as if the Mage-Priest himself was a large target".
Now, the first interpretation doesn't seem to make sense still, as the rule still comes off as stilted. It seems to me, that if they intended others to have line of sight to the slann as if he were a large target, that sentence wouldn't read "the line of sight" but rather "line of sight" omitting both the "the" and the "his". So I rather that think that that interpretation of the meaning requires there to be a double misprint in that neither the "the" or the "his" is intended, as "he" implies on direction. "[T]he" is stilted and improper in that there is no other los that it could have been referring to and should have been caught by the editors as well and left to be simply "line of sight" rather than "the line of sight". Now, if they intended that line of sight from the slann in a one way sense was to be as a large target, this interpretation requires there to really only be one misprint: that of the "the". I find this to be far more likely in that it only requires that one of the words is a misprint, not the other. Now as to whether or not it applies only in the magic phase, I think that it does not. There is a case to be made here in that there is an implication that it happens only in the magic phase. But as it stands, the way I would play it is that a player waste points to put a bow on the slann to shoot. He may also declare some funky charges (though I doubt this has much impact). He also increases the vulnerability of the unit to the cauldron, etc. as he can see it over "screening" small units. I interpret this rule to mean that he is treated for line of sight purposes as a one-way large target in that he can see as if he was large while others treat him as small for their line of sight purposes in all phases.

Kalist
05-04-2009, 12:37
How could so many people interpret this so wrong? Is english a second language for many of you?

"The Slann Magwe-Priest's palanquin allows it to float up to cast its powerful magic before dropping back within the protection of its unit."


The Slann can float up at his leisure. When he floats up to cast a spell he has a view of the battlefield as if he were a large target, allowing THE SLANN to see OVER enemy units (i.e. you can't prevent him from casting a spell on one unit by blocking his line of sight to it with another unit). After he is done casting his spell he floats back down to the protection of his unit. HE IS NOT A LARGE TARGET. He only has 'the line of sight as if he WERE a large target when casting.

Again, how is it possible that you can interpret this wrong? If your english is so poor that you don't understand what this rule means, why don't you try asking a friend to interpret it for you?

xragg
05-04-2009, 12:40
I think all of you are forgeting the phrase at the very beginning of the sentence you all are argueing over "because of this". The phrase refers to the prior sentence. You can substitute the prior sentence into the phrase without losing meaning as such: Because the slann mage priest ... of his unit, the line of sight ...

Its sad that anyone is trying to over analyze a single sentence or even an obvious typo. I just want to put my head down and hope I never have to play a game versus someone trying to find an easter egg out of this. See, I used the phrase "of this" to refer my prior sentence...

Necromancy Black
05-04-2009, 12:45
That power doesn't require LOS.

Let's hear it for me being an idiot!

LION
05-04-2009, 13:27
:p My God people do get a bit Confused Dont they? Slann may be Clinically Obese Frogs that Levitate above units via dubious Wind Related Powers, but how could they be LARGE TARGETS?

A better Arguement could surely be constructed for Banning Slann on Health and Safety Grounds from any Lizard Army under 3000 points LION

Lord Yawgmoth
05-04-2009, 15:10
(obviously the slann himself is not a L.T., neither is a Disc)

anyways, I just wanted to sum up the general consensus:

Most people firmly believe that only the slann can use his own special LOS rule (and is supported by the paragraph the most), and I think they are also of the mind that he can only do this special manuever in the magic phase.



discussion end?




[As a final note, I used to think that Discs of Tzeentch worked like this, count as Large targets for their LOS purposes.... but I misread a word]