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BLARGAG!!!
04-04-2009, 20:13
Hey all,

I am in the planning stages of a Dwarf Slayer army (using the list in the Storm of Chaos book).

So here is the question. Do you guys think that I am crazy to start an army like this for my first WHFB army? Why or why not.

Any tips (or abuse that you feel the need to hurl at me for starting such a crazy army) and such that you fine people have for me would be much appreciated.

Thanks a lot!
BLARGAG!!!

PS: Army building tips would be helpful too!

fubukii
04-04-2009, 20:22
yes the list issnt even remotely legal anymore and its more overpowered then almost any other army list out there.

BLARGAG!!!
04-04-2009, 20:30
yes the list isn't even remotely legal anymore and its more overpowered then almost any other army list out there.

legal in terms of tournies? if so, I don't really care about that.

also, how is it really overpowered? you have a bunch of M3 T4 models with no armour. they would get cut down by any sort of shooting in short order. At least that is how it would seem on paper.

selone
04-04-2009, 20:42
Is it legal in any way shape or form?

Muad'Dib
04-04-2009, 20:45
-The list gets 10 points for every Slayer killed by S5+. This means that some armies like Chaos or certain builds of Daemons will actually struggle to earn any points.
-The entire army is unbreakable. Some argue it is overpowered, but I think most will agree that it makes for very boring gameplay - throwing combat resolution and psychology right out of the window.
-Doomseekers are undercosted and have too many special rules, very hard to take down for some armies.
-The heroes can be tricked out to generate insane amount of CR through Slayer Skills.

The army is just so one dimensional that few would want to play against it more than once.

snyggejygge
04-04-2009, 20:55
Yup, it's a boring army to both play with and against.

Why not just use a normal Dwarf army with lots of slayers in it, then at least you get a shot at the other phases as well, not to mention that the games becomes more fun if everything isn't unbreakable without even crumbling.

Horus38
04-04-2009, 20:59
So here is the question. Do you guys think that I am crazy to start an army like this for my first WHFB army?

For your first army, yes. If you were a vet looking for a side project/fun army to bring out occasionally or for a campaign then maybe. People have already listed obvious reasons as to why this may be a let down for you.

What exactly draws you to the army? If you elaborate a little more I'm sure people will be able to point you towards other builds/armies that may be of interest.

Leogun_91
04-04-2009, 21:05
I don´t think you would be crazy...just badly informed...these posts should fix it though.

Time of Madness
04-04-2009, 21:29
It's still legal in Canada. You can even take it to tournies! Someone had one at the Canadian GT last year.
Time of Madness

BLARGAG!!!
04-04-2009, 21:34
I want to start this army because I think that it would be a fun army to build and collect, and really cool looking on the TT.

To clarify, this isn't my first army ever. I started playing Dwarfs back in 2000 and stopped and begun to play 40k. I have been playing 40k for a little under 5 years now and so I'm not a total newb.

I thought that the army would be a lot more fun to play than you guys make it sound (from what I remembered of playing with it when it came out).

Thanks for the insight and keep it coming!
BLARGAG!!!

Neknoh
04-04-2009, 22:13
As said, Slayer armies have a few fundamental errors, which, if abused, become nothing but ridiculus:


1. Half a unit/an entire unit can be unit champions, meaning that you have to direct every attack you make against that unit, otherwise, attacks all go onto slayers in the front rank and are then wasted, not to mention attacks will not even generate remotely balanced killings, since you have to direct them straight at specific models.

2. The Glory in Death rule, or whatever it is called, this means that anything that relies on strength 5 of any sort to kill your toughness 4 models, will not earn any sort of victory points at all. I cannot remember if it is unmodified strength 5 or just strength 5+ in general, if it is in general, there wont be a lot of happy players out there, since not even bretonnian or empire lances will grant victory points.

3. Doomseekers, strike before impact hits, hit everything in btb and in btb with those enemies in btb with the doomseeker (or something to that effect), dealing D3 wounds. Really... strikes before impact hits? This means that anything that can actually hurt them will either have to whittle massive ammounts of hits from them, OR will have to be of such a high strength and toughness that they hardly get any victorypoints for killing them.

4. Slayer Characters kitted to generate obscene ammounts of overkill or to oblitterate entire Ogre units in a single turn, sometimes both. Not to mention the fact that they are unbreakable.

This leads me to number five.

5. The entire army is unbreakable, what you have to do is engage in combat with toughness 4, unbreakable units, that get victorypoints for dying against strength 5 or more. This means that in order NOT to get trapped as soon as you charge them, you will have to throw massive ammounts of strength 5+ attacks at them to kill the units outright, however, doing so will net you around 20 victorypoints due to their special rules. Heroes can take on entire units by themselves (something only Greater Daemons and Dreadlance Vampire Lords can do, not even Chaos Lords on dragons can charge a unit head on and rely on staying there long enough to get help.)

Not to mention the duller parts of the army as well, M3 and no armour, it's basically a game of "can I reach you before you shoot me to death?", and against anything but skinks, the answer is often yes. The army also has a LOT of magic resistance in there, and sure, they might be slightly susceptible to magic, but that doesn't matter much, because they cannot suffer panic, and, unlike daemons, vc or tk, whom are all annoyingly difficult for a lot of players due to their crumbling, even a single surviving slayer can lock down a unit.

These are a few of the arguments as to why you shouldn't



500 or 1000 points with a goblin hewer and no doomseekers might be enjoyable, but go larger or bring doomseekers and über characters, and it becomes rather dull.

BigRob
04-04-2009, 23:28
Yes your crazy, but don't listen to all the doomsayers, go with what you want to do. I think alot of the SoC armies were great even though they have a few problems and power balance issues. Who cares if you can't use them in tournies, as long as your mates are up for a game then have fun. Why not refight the SoC and see if you get a better result than the GW plot fix.

The slayer army is very powerful, take the right skills and loadouts and your characters will win the day. The rest of the slayers are padding to soak missile damage while as many doomseekers as possible round out the list. Ignore the Goblin Hewer and pack in more dragonslayers.

The big slayerarmy question is whether Strollaz and "Look Snorri, Trolls!" stack. Some say they do (several calls to the "Rules boyz" and instore staff) and some say they don't (apparently GavT himself but we could never find it in WD or online). That mighty surge of movement can make you in charge range on turn one with a good roll!

TheLionReturns
05-04-2009, 00:16
I don't think the concept of legality makes much sense outside a tournament setting. Player consent is required for wargaming, official stances are irrelevant.

Given the reputation of the army you may have difficulty finding opponents willing to play you. Also the army may get boring fast. I personally would not mind facing the list on occasion, but doubt I would enjoy doing so on a regular basis. However, if the theme inspires you and it sounds like the kind of thing you would like to collect and paint up my advice would be go for it. Just be prepared to get more from a collecting/modeling perspective than you do from the gaming side of things.

If you have a regular gaming group who tolerate such things, after some experience with the army you may be able to tweak the rules a bit to try and make them more balanced and interesting. This may make gaming more viable with them, and the development of the rules might be quite enjoyable too. Such drastic house ruling is probably not something to thrust on new opponents though so it depends on your gaming environment.

Urgat
05-04-2009, 00:23
I'll add to all the other comments that it's 100% metal, so it'll cost you a fair deal for an army you probably won't play much.

Ultimate Life Form
05-04-2009, 02:36
I'll add to all the other comments that it's 100% metal, so it'll cost you a fair deal for an army you probably won't play much.

Says the guy who searches for metal Forest Goblins in his sig.:p

So, against this list, my Skinks actually have a use, huh? What about Terradons, dropping loads of Stones and Spears? Salamander template weapon and Razordons? Looks like an all-Skinks list is the best bet against this thing.

dijit80
05-04-2009, 02:44
I find that players will rarely want to play something that isn't 'tourny legal' - they like the game as much as you and don't want the risk of having the butts kicked by a terrible and unbalanced army and ruining their evening. The concept the tourny legal is that everything is balanced (I'm not looking at you DoC!).

Sleazy
05-04-2009, 09:46
If you went to the time, effort and expense to build and paint this army I would have no problem facing it.

But then I'd probably be using Chaos Dwarfs anyway.

Urgat
05-04-2009, 09:49
Says the guy who searches for metal Forest Goblins in his sig.:p

So, against this list, my Skinks actually have a use, huh? What about Terradons, dropping loads of Stones and Spears? Salamander template weapon and Razordons? Looks like an all-Skinks list is the best bet against this thing.
Anything that can shoot and run really. I'd field an army of wolf riders and bows against that, and that teach them a good lesson. Most boring battle ever, though.

And the hush for the forest gobs, three guys have contacted me since I've put that in my sig, and all three have cut contact in the middle, around the point when I asked how much it costed. Most annoying and rude I recon.

the anti santa
05-04-2009, 10:34
I used the Slayer list for several years and had a decent amount of success with them and am a member of a Slayer forum too. Some of the posts above are pretty clueless and obviously from people who have had little experience with Slayer lists.

Sure they never run away, but they are slow, have no magic, virtually no shooting and aren't even that good at combat. An army that didn't run away and also didn't have these drawbacks would be broken, but GW wouldn't be stupid enough to release something like that would they?.....;)

In 7th edition the army would be in the bottom half of competitiveness, skirmishers, fast cavalry and flyers are virtually invunerable to you since any player with half a brain will never let you catch them. Only 2 slayer units can take missile weapons and they are both 0-1 choices.

Doomseekers are a lot less nasty than their reputation suggests, you can pick them out with shooting now and most people did the rules wrong for their close combat attacks. If you do it the correct way (roll individually for models in base to base with the seeker and for those getting hit on a 4+) then the seeker faces return attacks a lot more often. They are 65 points too which is pretty pricey.

Also bear in mind that Dragonslayers are overpriced in the slayer list at 65 points for onlt T4. You won't get slayer weapons either so will have to choose 2 hand weapons or a great weapon when you buy them and stick with that.

The basic slayer is pretty useless really, you will almost never get to charge and almost always go second so die pretty easy with T4 and no armour.

If you are going to build a slayer army take at least 15 Slayer pirates and the goblin hewer in any army above 1500 points. Don't go overboard on doomseekers as you need plenty of bodies to soak up missile fire. I'd go easy on the dragonslayers, normally i only bothert with a general with the MR of swiftness, rune of cleaving and skavenslayer and a BSB with the MR of Grimnir.

The Brotherhood of Grmnir are nice as you can get the Master Rune of Grungni too and even some extra magical protection if you face powerdice spammers a lot.

The comments above about them getting a bit dull quiet quickly are true, but they are more fun than to play and face than the Thorek Gunline. Wood Elves (in fact High & Dark or any mobile shooy army) will destroy you, with some bad luck you could easily go the whole game vs a decent Wood Elf player without killing a thing like i did in my 1st game vs them.

Sadly you will get refused games from some people who seem to think that if you can't use an army in tournaments then it isn't legal. :wtf: As if the Game police will come and arrest you for using an out of date list (with lots of expensive and now useless metal models in it :rolleyes:) but most will be fine with it.

e-bay is a great place to get cheap slayers, the old marauder ones are often really reasonable and will add some much needed variety. The slayer models used in the SOC were the Giantslayer models.

speedygogo
05-04-2009, 10:46
The new dark elves pretty much own slayer armies also. If it is some thing you want to do just do it. With the new dwarf book you can pretty muck build a fairer but similar army, especially if you take an anvil. Some of the slayer character skills and the doomseekers are really the only things broken in the SOC list.

Harwammer
05-04-2009, 11:53
The army is perfectly legal. Sure, it is banned from certain tournaments, but there is nothing stopping you from using the official rules out side of these situations. Indeed the army still has an official level of support in terms of the FAQ it received last year:

INTERACTION WITH THE SLAYER ARMY OF KARAK KADRIN (STORM OF CHAOS)
(Slayer army answers based on those provided by Gav during previous on-line discussions)


Q. Can I use the profiles, points costs, equipment, special rules, etc. for Daemon Slayers, Dragon Slayers, and Slayers that are found in the new Dwarf book for
the Slayer army of Karak Kadrin?

A. You must use the profiles, points costs, equipment options, special rules, etc. exactly as found in the Storm of Chaos book. Note that references to “Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs, page 7” should be updated to read “Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs, page 33”. Also note that NO characters or units in the Slayer army of Karak Kadrin have the special rule of Slayer Axes and thus they do not benefit from it. In addition, note that any references to “runic weapons lists” should be changed to “Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs, page 44” and any references to “runic standards list” should be changed to “Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs, pages 45-46”.


Q. How do the “Look Snorri, Trolls!” army special rule for the Slayer army of Karak Kadrin and Strollaz’s Rune interact?

A. The player must choose whether to use Strollaz’s Rune OR the “Look, Snorri, Trolls!” rule... but not both!


Q. Is Malakai Makaisson a Master Engineer?

A. No. It states in his rules that he is a Dwarf Engineer. He is not listed as a Master Engineer.


As you can see GW still anticipate people wanting to use this list. These QnA were sourced from the dwarf FAQ on the GW website;
https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470859_Dwarfs_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf

I just want to say it will be an expensive army to collect and in my opinion it may get boring (controlling movement and thus combats are the most important aspects of the game to me).

Kill-Freedom
05-04-2009, 12:11
Played it once, pwned it, wouldnt play it again, these different list are fine in the campaigns they come out with, but other then that, you wouldnt have a battle against me at my gaming group

Not staying i am worried, just i dont believe they are officailly lists, past the date the campaign ended :rolleyes:

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-04-2009, 12:15
Don't know, I played against it a few times some years ago, it wasn't really some very interesting games. I won, but after proxying them for a few game the person running them decided not to bother.

Virtually no shooting, very limited mobility, no magic. Some match ups will be an auto-loss, some will be an auto-win.

I think it's one of those things where the idea is far more interesting than the result.

Mireadur
05-04-2009, 13:18
The dwarf death seekers felt quite overpowered once they reached combat (ive had cases of 1 of them holding full units for the entire game).

Other than that... Dont you think it is a tremendously boring as hell list? God, im so...Sleepy...Sudden..ZZzzzZ..Ly...ZZzZzzzz...

The Red Scourge
06-04-2009, 07:48
Slayers are cool. And a slayer army is just about the only stuntie army worth looking at – and thats what matters :cool:

If only I didn't have 3 other armies to work on, I'd start right away on that pile of slayers, doomseekers and slayer pirates hidden in a box somewhere :D

BLARGAG!!!
06-04-2009, 13:30
To all the people telling me about the cost of starting this army, I am not that concerned because I have a bunch of stuff to trade and people seem to have an excess of slayers lying around (already have like 70 and have only paid like $25 USD in postage so far).

Also, thanks to the person who told me about GW FAQing this list. I can shove that in the face of the couple of people at me LGS that said that the rules are out of date and illegal.

I know that this list seems a bit one dimensional, but I think that it will be fun to paint and model and I'll just have to find people that will play me with it.

Thanks for all the comments!
BLARGAG!!!

Mireadur
06-04-2009, 19:15
Maybe if you modify its ruling somehow so games get more varied and fun for both parts you will easily get more people to play agaisnt it!

BLARGAG!!!
06-04-2009, 19:37
I can just keep the theme going and play a "regular" dwarf army with maxed out Slayer units and then some quarrelers for core, or something like that.

It does say in the Storm of Chaos book that I can take Garagrim in a regular Dwarf army, so I may do that. If only to stop the people at my LGS from bitching at me about it.

I could also use Slayers as warriors and then use brotherhood of grimnir as actual slayers, then I it would be the same as an all slayer army, except with different rules. Now that I think about it, I think that this is what I'll do. I'll also chuck in a couple of crossbow units and call it a good day.

Thanks for the help!
BLARGAG!!!

DarkTerror
06-04-2009, 20:04
...Sadly you will get refused games from some people who seem to think that if you can't use an army in tournaments then it isn't legal. :wtf: As if the Game police will come and arrest you for using an out of date list...


An out of date list is out of date for a reason. It doesn't fit with the power/context of today's game. Fifth edition rules were never banned AFAIK... Want to play with one of those too against my 7th edition army?

There's always someone who thinks a bad idea sounds like a moment of genius.

Why I say this is I don't think anyone should be encouraged to build an army that's out of date and out of love. The army died for good cause. Let it RIP.

Bac5665
06-04-2009, 20:15
An out of date list is out of date for a reason. It doesn't fit with the power/context of today's game. Fifth edition rules were never banned AFAIK... Want to play with one of those too against my 7th edition army?

There's always someone who thinks a bad idea sounds like a moment of genius.

Why I say this is I don't think anyone should be encouraged to build an army that's out of date and out of love. The army died for good cause. Let it RIP.

I agree with this. I wanted to do a cult of Slaanesh list, and would have done it, given the chance, but the SoC lists were dropped. Now, there's nothing stopping me from using the list anyway, except that it would be the same thing as a homemade list. I don't like the idea of house rules, and this would be a big one, so I let the idea die.

I wouldn't play against for the most part, at least not on the regular game night, because it wouldn't be an actual game of warhammer. I might play you at some prearranged time, but not more than once or twice, and I would hope you'd move on to a current list.

I don't intend to be harsh, but to me, a game played with the current rules set is better than some other game, so while I might play against the list on occation, it would always be because I couldn't get a "real" game in.

snurl
07-04-2009, 06:13
I have a slayer army and it is a lot of fun every now and then.
I like to use it for "away" games because there are fewer models to pack up.

Makarion
07-04-2009, 19:48
Maybe if you modify its ruling somehow so games get more varied and fun for both parts you will easily get more people to play agaisnt it!

They did that already! It's called the newest Dwarf army book.

The Slayer list is very much a rock-paper-scissors army, and almost no one enjoys those, since win or lose, the result will hardly have to do with the players' skills.

isidril93
07-04-2009, 19:58
you could easily make a slayer type army with the normal dwarves

daemon slayer
3 dragon slayers
3 units f warriors
slayers

W0lf
07-04-2009, 20:39
The only things that kill the unbreakable units gain little-no VPs for doing so.

Yeah balanced when you can wipe out 1K of troops for like 200 VPs. (im reffering to slayers not VCs :P)

Harwammer
07-04-2009, 21:00
you could easily make a slayer type army with the normal dwarves

daemon slayer
3 dragon slayers
3 units f warriors
slayers

illegal army; no general. You'd have to make do with a non-slayer character in order to have a general.

Still, that would be
Heroes:
General,
3 slayer characters

Special:
4x slayers

Rare:
slayer pirates

I think rangers would make a fluffy core for a slayer theme army (scouting for enemy for the slayers to engage, perhaps?), a unit of long beards to carry Master rune of grungi to protect the slayers as they close ground on the enemy and whatever else is required for core (e.g. warriors to support the long beards if the general isn't a dwarf lord).