PDA

View Full Version : Super Heavies for Not All



avatarofportent
04-04-2009, 22:49
Hey,

so if one side has like one or two super heavies and the other side doesn't is that fair or not? i mean super heavies eat up alot of points that you could buy alot of terminators or brightlances with to take them out. do you guys play that both sides have to have a super heavy?

Threeshades
04-04-2009, 23:02
Hey,

so if one side has like one or two super heavies and the other side doesn't is that fair or not? i mean super heavies eat up alot of points that you could buy alot of terminators or brightlances with to take them out. do you guys play that both sides have to have a super heavy?

Considering that some armies dont even have any super-heavies - Well okay the whole list consists of Dark Eldar but anyway - it seems impossible to always have super-heavies on both sides.

I dont think its too bad to have them on only one side. Because, yes for those points you can have a lot of tankkillers to take care of them.

doskar
04-04-2009, 23:03
It's fair if you know about it in advance. There are plenty of toys to take down Superheavies. If you show up and there is a Reaver accross the table you absolutely didn't expect, well get ready to be spanked.

Pasquill
04-04-2009, 23:09
Never seen any of the rules for super heavys, I don't know how 'ard they actually are. I know you cannot post stats or points but how hard is it for a brightlance or a lascannon to actually hurt one of these and do they have wounds?

Chaoschrist
04-04-2009, 23:19
Never seen any of the rules for super heavys, I don't know how 'ard they actually are. I know you cannot post stats or points but how hard is it for a brightlance or a lascannon to actually hurt one of these and do they have wounds?

Superheavies have structure points which can be seen as wounds. However, they go up from 2 all the way to 12 (and to add even 8 Void shields) on an Emperor Battle titan. I do have no idea how Void shields work exactly... should consider reading my Apoc book for once :P

So for toughness... wounding tanks with heavy weapons and sometimes lots of them can take them down. If you're going Apoc with nothing but infantry you'll probably get spanked a bit though ;)

the1stpip
04-04-2009, 23:20
We don't care about super heavies. We can field enough Dark Lances to make in anyone's plans.

Having said that, I don't play Apoc, and wouldn't unless it was to use my super heavies.

Apoc is just about who has got the biggest guns.

Kelpi
04-04-2009, 23:34
Its certainly possible to have a fun and fair game fighting superheavies when you don't have any. As mentioned earlier you do have to know what your facing and build your list accordingly, you may find that you cannot destroy the superheavies but disable them instead. Also it helps if you also have some sort of non-regular unit such as a flier to mix things up.

The last such game I played was 6000 points Orks with Fightabomma vs Marines/Guard with Baneblade and Warhound.

ReveredChaplainDrake
05-04-2009, 01:10
It's not insurmountable to kill some of the lighter superheavies (Stompa and lower). In fact, if you use the Apocalypse rules over the Forge World rules, and if you actually play 3000+ pt games with normal mission rules, it's almost unfair to the superheavy user to have to deal with your numbers with one big giant fire magnet. I played against a Tyranid guy whose only way to make 3000 pts was with a Barbed Hierodule. So my Tau of 3000 pts took it on and wrecked the Hierodule in one shooting phase. The Hierodule was neutralized by the fact that it could never wound past my Drones and the cover saves on my Hammerheads pretty much hampered its fire output.

I don't especially like Apocalypse battles. Because of the large average income / low sportsmanship of some players in my area, Baneblades, Stompas, and the like have been flying off the shelves to the point where the average gamer could be expected to have about two superheavies. In Apocalypse, it's not unheard of for a team to bring 10 Baneblades / Stompas / variants thereof and nothing else. While I don't have a job, I'm very tempted to pick up a Hierophant (yes, the biggest one) just to even the playing field.

GodofWarTx
05-04-2009, 02:11
My gaming group experimented with this.

We had 4 baneblades on one side with guard (ie, more tanks) and the other side with marines, chaos, IG. All of which knew they were going up against titans so we used every single heavy weapon we could muster. We used bunkers to hold our men inside for great cover saves for all our firepower.

End result?

The heavy weapons were pretty much wiped out by the end of turn 2. Baneblades simply concentrated fire with their 10 inch templates on any grouping of heavy weapons. With the massive range advantage of many superheavies, the superheavy team could merely pick and choose which part of our line they wanted to engage. It was a complete slaughter and we did our best to prepare to fight superheavies.

In my opinion there are very very few options to take on an opposing team's superheavies when your team has none. The superheavy might not kill "its points worth" but it will absorb so much fire its astounding. The more super heavies you are outnumbered by, the worse it will be.

cuda1179
05-04-2009, 02:50
There is a local player that uses suicide squads VERY well. A few units of deepstriking Imperial Guard Veterans with three meltaguns and a combi-melta is brutal. They can deepstrike within the void sheilds making them useless. With any luck they are within 6 inches. Sure, you may loose a couple squads to deepstrike mishap, but they are cheep. Who cares if they survive the next shooting faze if they kill a 1,000 point model?

I had my Warlord titan crippled in one turn by this tactic.

Warforger
05-04-2009, 03:16
Try Fire Dragons in Wave Serpent......

tacoo
05-04-2009, 03:53
Superheavies have structure points which can be seen as wounds. However, they go up from 2 all the way to 12 (and to add even 8 Void shields) on an Emperor Battle titan. I do have no idea how Void shields work exactly... should consider reading my Apoc book for once :P

So for toughness... wounding tanks with heavy weapons and sometimes lots of them can take them down. If you're going Apoc with nothing but infantry you'll probably get spanked a bit though ;)

isint the emperor battle titan the 4k point model? i would just use the bloodthrister formation (i think it includes 8 bloodthrister) and smash it to bits i think, i only played 1 apoc game and the only super heavy was a baneblade.

desert_rat21
05-04-2009, 04:09
as a superheavy owner (baneblade) i have seen more of these things shot out from under me then i care to remember, all you need is to use is standard tank killers that can deal with the armor value. whatever you do, dont completely do something uberdeathnasty to the superheavy, like an undeclared vortex grenade or a titan hammer (fire dragon flank marching is a bit over kill too, especially when eldar could be more courteous and use one of those fast skimmers to a similiar effect and give you the courtesy of trying to prevent your inevitable death), as the superheavies often are the pride and joy of one's army and to have every one on the other team plot the quickest and most effective (and usually the most cheesy) death of your machine is depressing to the owner.

in my baneblade's first outing, for which i had looked forward to for quite some time and gotten her all nicely painted and ready, me and the other baneblade owner had a blind bombardment yanked over our heads and then several squads of firedragons flank march up our rear and blow us to pieces on turn one (or two).

game two with my baneblade was even worse, I was the only one with a superheavy, and a single one at that, the opposing team had two necron players (one of whom is heinz guderian's great grandson, shame on his legacy) who both decided to kit out their necron lords with veils of darkness and vortex grenades that they decided to go against the rules and not tell our team about (i could have stopped one with my trusty basilisk). now I had come prepared for flank marching death after having learned my lesson in the first game with my baneblade, and had taken the strategem that gave me a 4+ of redirecting reserves etc.. so i sat there and watched these two necron lords deepstrike in front of my baneblade on turn one, i told them i had the afforementioned strategem, they proceded to argue that VoD does not count as deepstriking as per the GW FAQ (which they conveniently did not have, and does not say anything about VoD not being a deepstrike) and proceded to eat my baneblade (of course the one vortex grenade lobbed rolled a 6 for his d-3 structure points).

now i have had many other fun games with superheavies where both sides were sporting about it and decided to gun duel with eachother rather than resort to cheaty cheese. however i still tend to stay away from apocalypse battles because i find it very deppressing that people will go out of their way to totally wreck your superheavy in the most cold, cheesy and rude way they can squeeze out of their codex rather than dealing with it in a similiarly effective and more friendly manner via stuff like railguns, lascannons, meltaguns etc.. so while superheavies may be terrifying to you, it is more often than not doomed before it even deploys, and as has been stated before, for their points, so many tank killers can be taken that it is a wonder that they can survive at all on the battlefield.

Deus
05-04-2009, 04:29
isint the emperor battle titan the 4k point model? i would just use the bloodthrister formation (i think it includes 8 bloodthrister) and smash it to bits i think, i only played 1 apoc game and the only super heavy was a baneblade.

Sounds good in theory, but if anyone is fielding an Emperor titan I dare say they have other things as meat shields, and the amount of firepower it can dish out is retarded, and only 1 apocalypse missile is needed.

On the other side, get enough MC units showing up close to it and its buggered. :cool:

starlight
05-04-2009, 04:31
It's never really been an issue as long as everyone knows Superheavies might be there and can prepare. :)

RichBlake
05-04-2009, 04:44
Also there's the fact you can take out a Baneblade in three shots, even one shot hypothetically.

Also some armies have CC stuff that tears up super heavies like Baneblades. Frire Dragons, marines with Chainfists, anything with meltabombs etc.

Seriously, score like 6 meltabomb hits on a Baneblade and that thing is toast.

theshadowduke
05-04-2009, 06:30
The biggest problem with super heavies is that alot of people use them wrong. They try to use baneblades as artillery support, titans as spearheads, ect. On top of that, you need multiples of them to do any good.

One baneblade? Toast. 3? Gonna kick some butt if used as a spear tip.
One warhound? likely dead turn 1 or 2. Two or more warhounds? Prolly gonna wreak havoc if used as support from just behind the front line.

Yes if one side has superheavies, its alittle unfair. If both sides have them, its a brutal slugfest.

Damocles8
05-04-2009, 07:11
wow...ironic that this came up today......had a game today.....two ork players, CSM (replaced by Tau and Necrons) vs. 2 Space Marines, IG, and Tau....the IG side had 2 Baneblades, 1 Stormlord, 2 Shadowsords to start with, and 1 Warhound.....the Ork side had 1 Brass Scorpion and 1 Hellhammer.......Orks went first and got a few hits on one of the Shadowsords.....nothing major......fired back and took out the Brass Scorpion.....and shortly after that the CSM player had enough and packed up.....he was slightly upset that his teammates didn't bring enough AT to deal with em....ended up beating the crap out of them.....as to fair....everything seemed fine.....but our opponents didn't prepare enough for them....even though they ALL knew what I had.....

El_Phen
05-04-2009, 10:15
In my experience, the use of Super-Heavy vehicles hasn't really affected the games I've played them ni or played against them. This includes having one or more on both sides and only one side having them.

Like anything else in the game, they are deadly at what they do and do it very well but are also vulnerable to the usual anti-tank stuff that any army can bring to the table (as has already been pointed out). I've not experienced games where they've totally dominated nor seen them be worthless points sinks. They've always performed reasonably well, sometimes getting their points back, sometimes not.

As has been said before though, they are a great source of pride to a player and a great addition to an army and to see them go bang in a turn or two would be quite annoying. then again, I suppose that if they're being targeted in such a fashion then they're going to be attracting a lot of fire power that isn't going at troop transports or the like.

I'd never insist that because one side was taking a Super-Heavy that the other had to have one too. There are ways of taking these things down even and enough cool strategic assets to negate some of their nastier attacks.

noobzor
05-04-2009, 18:59
the best way to counter superheavies is... MORE superheavies. This is why the gladiator games at adepticon are usually wipeouts- whoever's bog thing survives kills everything else.

it really is difficult to deal with them. Wraithguad can have some fun :)

Skyrir
05-04-2009, 19:10
I usually just use obliterators or csm terminators, they can at least disable most superheavy if deepstriked next to them.

carldooley
05-04-2009, 19:26
nah, excuse me while I field a dozen broadsides.

starlight
05-04-2009, 19:31
nah, excuse me while I field a dozen broadside teams.
:evilgrin:

Fixed that for you. :)

Superheavies aren't all that tough, as long as you have a decent level of Anti-Tank, you should be fine. :)

warchild9
05-04-2009, 19:53
I played a 2500 pt per side mini Apocalypse game- rules 1 strategm per army and any model with WS counts a scoring capture and control (1 objective each). I faced a krieg army with 3 super heavies (baneblade, vulcan machurius, and shadowsword) in game 1 and in the second game I faced a Red Scorpions Space marine army with no super heavies but 1 formation (vindicators). I had a foot mounted Sisters of Battle army with NO ARMOUR VEHICLES. I severly crippled the baneblade but the other Super Heavies were untouched as was the vindicator formation in game 2 . What was my record 1 win (against krieg since I had his objective and stalled his advance on to mine far enough away for the win) and a 1 tie (since I had my objective heavily defended and he killed my Canoness in the last turn of melee before the game ended for the contesting of his)

Killgore
05-04-2009, 20:31
Anyside with few or no superheavys will suffer if they face a side that is nothing but Lemun Russ's/ Baneblades (which im afraid is far to common).

I think that match ups like this will be decided on the amount of terrain on the table. Apocalypse on a open shoot out table is no fun and should be avoided at all costs.

RCgothic
05-04-2009, 22:05
Most superheavies have a devastating range advantage over non-superheavies. There is litterally nothing a non-superheavy army can do to touch a titan firing from 60"+ away if it's properly supported.

Lockgor
05-04-2009, 22:21
I don't think its that bad to have superheavies only on one side. A few days ago I was on a team in a apocalypse game that had no superheavies, and the enemy team had four. We trashed them three objectives to none by turn two (only has time for two turns, but by then almost all their troop choices were dead, and their Stormlord was gone. We managed to stay mostly intact :).), and teams were made on the spot with no time to take a anti-superheavy list. It was 10,000 points of Imperials (One Marine, Two Dark Angels, A Grey Knight, and my Imperial Guard) vrs. Xenos and Traitor Guard (Eldar, Tyrandis, Two Tau, and Imperial Guard). In the end you just have to keep in mind that Apocalypse is ultimately not about killing power, but about taking objectives; and that the right strategic asset and formation can be a great equalizer (in my case, the Infantry Shield Formation with a Shield Generator). Tactics can best firepower every time, provided its a fairly equal battlefield.

DinoDoc
05-04-2009, 22:48
You don't always need a superheavy anyway to deal with them. Titanhammer squads and Terminus Raiders seem like adequate ways for SM to deal with them. I won't bother going over how many lascannons IG can squeeze into an army. Lots of armies have ways to deal with them outside of taking thier own.

Charistoph
05-04-2009, 23:39
nah, excuse me while I field a dozen broadsides.

Now, how many Railguns can I field with 4000 points?

Add a Tiger Shark or two, and I can easily say, "What's a Super Heavy?"

Vaktathi
06-04-2009, 03:16
Hey,

so if one side has like one or two super heavies and the other side doesn't is that fair or not? i mean super heavies eat up alot of points that you could buy alot of terminators or brightlances with to take them out. do you guys play that both sides have to have a super heavy?

It depends on the type of superheavy. One side having a couple baneblades at 6000pts and the other not is generally going to be ok if they brought the right stuff and the side that brought the baneblades isn't all AV14 armor tanks.

One side having a Warlord Titan and the other side having no superheavies is only going to result in slaughter.

galahad67
06-04-2009, 03:43
Now, how many Railguns can I field with 4000 points?

Add a Tiger Shark or two, and I can easily say, "What's a Super Heavy?"

Isn't a Tigershark a superheavy?

It has D weapons...

and flies

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 04:12
My gaming group experimented with this.

We had 4 baneblades on one side with guard (ie, more tanks) and the other side with marines, chaos, IG. All of which knew they were going up against titans so we used every single heavy weapon we could muster.

What do you mean by heavy weapons? Because missile launchers don't cut it.

brassangel
06-04-2009, 04:16
I watched an Apocalypse game of IG vs. Space Marines where the marine player had a Reaver Titan as it's only super-heavy. The IG player had 7 Lemun Russ variants, 2 Baneblades, and 3 Basilisks. The Reaver Titan blew up both Baneblades, 5 Russ's, and 1 Basilisk. The Reaver was basically unscathed by the game's end.

starlight
06-04-2009, 04:17
One side having a Warlord Titan and the other side having no superheavies is only going to result in slaughter.

Depends on what it's facing...

I'd take on a Warlord with my Imperial, Tau, or Tyranid forces (although the Trygon might be pushing it;)). Da Ladz are a little too *horde-y* and the DE and SoB wouldn't do well. :(

onewayticket
06-04-2009, 04:37
The way my group handles superheavies is that we match up points and structure points.

For each difference of structure points, you get 150 points; 250 points can be traded for a strategic asset.

We also treat monoliths like 1 structure point superheavies, as they cheat like the dickens sometimes.

A1TEC
06-04-2009, 04:38
It doesn't matter if both sides don't have super heavies.

If you don't, its more fun

DinoDoc
06-04-2009, 04:58
... and the DE and SoB wouldn't do well. :(Don't the DE have an anti-Titan datasheet in the Apoc book?

MrBims
06-04-2009, 05:03
It is difficult to take out a super-heavy without Strength D weapons, but not impossible. The main thing to remember is that you will never out-gun a Titan at long range, no matter how many Lascannons you put on the table, and the best way to kill them is to get up in their face as quickly as possible.

The largest attractions to Titans are their ridiculous survivability and their heavy forward weaponry. Because of this, they will often be kept near the back of the enemy's deployment, so that long-ranged fire is concentrated on it and it can fire at everything without fear of enemies assaulting it. Both attractions can be negated with the use of the Flank March strategic asset and some specific units. Shields only work against ranged fire outside 12", so use Flank March to deploy reserved units next to the Titan, allowing the units to fire without hitting the shields, and also potentially giving melta weapons the +d6 to penetration.

Some of the better annoyances against Titans are Hardened Veteran squads w/ melta guns, Fire Dragons, and Tau Stealth Suits or Crisis Suits w/ fusion blasters. Other units can be improvised in a pinch, like Necron Warriors; because Warriors will auto-glance on an armor penetration roll of 6, a large group of them can potentially cause enough glances to destroy the Titan's weapons and drives.

Unfortunately, not all races can easily muster short-ranged anti-Titan weaponry, like Tyranids. Tyranids will have to assault the Titan with MCs, which are guaranteed to be the first targets the enemy player will shoot as soon as possible.

starlight
06-04-2009, 05:40
Don't the DE have an anti-Titan datasheet in the Apoc book?

Likely, but I run a Harlequin-themed DEWC...

Alucard13
06-04-2009, 05:59
Also there's the fact you can take out a Baneblade in three shots, even one shot hypothetically.

Also some armies have CC stuff that tears up super heavies like Baneblades. Frire Dragons, marines with Chainfists, anything with meltabombs etc.

Seriously, score like 6 meltabomb hits on a Baneblade and that thing is toast.

Or if you are my friends baneblade one deepstriking obliterator with a multi melta could take out the baneblade.

AllisterCaine
06-04-2009, 06:20
My gaming group experimented with this.

We had 4 baneblades on one side with guard (ie, more tanks) and the other side with marines, chaos, IG. All of which knew they were going up against titans so we used every single heavy weapon we could muster. We used bunkers to hold our men inside for great cover saves for all our firepower.

End result?

The heavy weapons were pretty much wiped out by the end of turn 2. Baneblades simply concentrated fire with their 10 inch templates on any grouping of heavy weapons. With the massive range advantage of many superheavies, the superheavy team could merely pick and choose which part of our line they wanted to engage. It was a complete slaughter and we did our best to prepare to fight superheavies.

In my opinion there are very very few options to take on an opposing team's superheavies when your team has none. The superheavy might not kill "its points worth" but it will absorb so much fire its astounding. The more super heavies you are outnumbered by, the worse it will be.

Absolutely ridiculous. If by "every single heavy weapon we could muster" you meant a pair of missile launchers and an autocannon, than it would be more plausible. The baneblade is still a tank, and you know how vulnerable tanks are in this game? They cannot absorb that much firepower at all. Its an AV 14tank with a big cannon. Thats it. Once the main cannon is blown off (which is stupidly easy to do), its pretty much worthless considering its points cost.

A few shaken and stun results will render the superheavy pretty much useless. And thats all you need really; you dont even need to blow it up. Hit it with lascannons and it wont even be able to shoot. Get a single weapon destroyed result? Thats all you need right there. The main gun has a 4+ save...a 50/50 chance. Dont tell me its impossible.

Heavy hitting close combat troops will absolutely demolish any superheavy. Nob bikers can do it. Assault marines can do it. Heck even rough riders can do it.

300pts of specialized firepower will be able to take on any baneblade (500pts) guaranteed, assuming youre smart enough to use cover, which may actually improve your troops chances of survival. :rolleyes:

Col. Dash
06-04-2009, 13:02
Superheavies while powerful, are not the end all be all. I played in two apoc games and my opponents had one or more baneblades. I had a single Mac with vulcan cannons so not exactly a super heavy killer and some lascannon knocked of the main gun anyway. My own lascannons in my troops did the trick for me. My guard versioneither A: lascannoned them into stupidness (main gun stunned, stunned, structure hit, structure hit) or my dropped in melta teams did major damage. The only weapon in range besides his main gun which generally was kept stunned was his lascannon which "Ok, you kill a guy, no wait he made his cover save". I kept my tanks on a far flank supporting an attack with a bunch of AOBR kids against a bunch of AOBR kids so he couldnt hit them. In the other game, there were higher priorities for his big guns than my LRs and chimeras.

Ranger S2H
06-04-2009, 13:30
if one side was the only one with super heavies, why not have the other dug in?
even a baneblade has a hard time hurting guardsmen in 3+ coversave bunkers.
would be a bit useless with some armies though.

RCgothic
06-04-2009, 15:44
A Superheavy's primary defensive measure is the range at which it can engage targets.

I played in a participation game at the forge world open day yesterday. It was 2 Warhounds, a Reaver, and 2 shadowswords vs 3 Revenants and 4 scorpions. The Imperials slaughtered because the Eldar only had range 60". The Warhound I commanded notched up 2 revenants and a scorpion personally. Anything touched by a reaver weapon died. The shadowswords consistently killed scorpions from beyond their operational range.

If it is a battle with superheavies against a side without, then if the non-superheavy side wins it is because the superheavy side made serious mistakes. For a start they should be deployed well outside 48" range. The Disruptor Beacon and Ambush assets make a mockery of flank march, and a cordon of imperial guardsmen to keep deep strikers at bay doesn't cost many points. If the enemy digs in, you just pound them flat from outside their operational range. They might last a bit longer, but if they're keeping their heads down it's not like they'll be doing much damage in return.

I'm tempted to write a Tactica: Superheavies now.

Tymell
06-04-2009, 15:53
I don't see any problem with them.

The whole point of a points system is to balance things: super-powerful things cost more and in return even if you don't have a super-heavy of your own you should be able to buy enough smaller things to combat it. That's the very basis of a points system.

It would be a different matter if super-heavies could only be hurt by other super-heavies, but this isn't the case. They can be taken down by anti-tank weapons just like anything else, they just have more "wounds" and some bigger guns.

kalspriggs
06-04-2009, 16:19
In fielding a superheavy, even a warhound, I've found that just one acts more as a diversion or enemy fire-sink for the army. That said, it's a pretty survivable and useful diversion. Most opponents get so focused on the 'big shooty thing gotta kill it' they forget about everything else. The issue to keep in mind is that like all options, be they super-duper characters, superheavy tanks, or whatever, forethought and planning makes the difference.

First time I fielded my titan, it wrecked havoc on my opponent. Second time, a squad of ten necrons glanced it into uselessness on turn one. It's all in how level a head an opponent maintains.

Of course, that's why I field two warhounds now... That's the other half, superheavies create an arms-race similar to the build up of battleships pre-world war I. He's got a bigger tougher weapon than me, so I'm going to build TWO of them.... What results is GW selling more models. Gotta love good marketing...

NealSmith
06-04-2009, 16:44
Also there's the fact you can take out a Baneblade in three shots, even one shot hypothetically.

Also some armies have CC stuff that tears up super heavies like Baneblades. Frire Dragons, marines with Chainfists, anything with meltabombs etc.

Seriously, score like 6 meltabomb hits on a Baneblade and that thing is toast.

It's not just theoretical... My first Apoc game... My first 40K game...

I had a Chaos Baneblade (running someone else's troops). Dark Angels lined up across from me. Skimmer with a lascannon. They get first shot.

We were just about to start playing. I went to the bathroom. I came back and the Baneblade was gone and about 1,000 points of other stuff incinerated in the "lucky shot" that the kid across from me made... Something like 4-5 sixes in a row?

Codsticker
06-04-2009, 17:11
I'm not really into fielding super-heavies but that is more for aesthetic reasons: the models are just too darn big. I feel like I should be getting out my son's playmobil and pushing it around the table. 28-30mm scale already pushes the distinction between toys and toy soldier; super heavies are just too much.

schottenjaeger
06-04-2009, 17:25
Most superheavies have a devastating range advantage over non-superheavies. There is litterally nothing a non-superheavy army can do to touch a titan firing from 60"+ away if it's properly supported.

As a longtime SoB player, with a lot of experience in high-points games (predating Apoc, as well as currently) I have three words for you. The first two are "Hunter" and "killer". Can you guess the third?

In an Apoc-level game, my (all mounted) sisters routinely run 15-20 H-K missiles, with a BS of 4. Trust me, they can hammer down a Titan better than 150 points of >anything< else, with the possible exception of deepstriking meltabomb infantry. With dispersed deployment, a Titan can usually only take down 1-3 Rhinos - and they almost invariably shoot for my Exorcists and Justice-pattern Immolators first anyway. Couple that with the profusion of Melta weapons we get, in a 100% mounted list... Let's just say the only reason I have superheavies is for the modeling aspect.

Grazzy
06-04-2009, 17:59
When both sides have too many super heavies everything else tends to pale into insignificance. One or two per side is fine.

Really, as long as one side does not have over 2 superheavies then the other side should be able to deal with it.

RCgothic
06-04-2009, 19:32
As a longtime SoB player, with a lot of experience in high-points games (predating Apoc, as well as currently) I have three words for you. The first two are "Hunter" and "killer". Can you guess the third?

In an Apoc-level game, my (all mounted) sisters routinely run 15-20 H-K missiles, with a BS of 4.

20 missiles, 14 hits, 8 get past the void shields, 1 and a third glancing hits against AV14. Then your deep striking melta troops find that they can't get within 6" because of my infantry cordon or appear on the other side of the board because of my Disruptor Beacon. If your main force can fight through my all-mounted battle company, despite all my anti-transport firepower, and get to within 6" of my titan despite the fact it can assault you 18", then well played, but the vast majority of the time it isn't going to happen.

The only threat to a well-played superheavy is another superheavy, or failing that, a battery of artillery.

Col. Dash
06-04-2009, 20:29
Hehe Grazzy, just wait, in two weeks we have an Apoc game, I am fielding my apoc force, 1 shard of warp spiders, 1 squad of war walkers, maybe a DA squad in a waveserpent, the rest.... 1 Phantom, 2 Knights, 1 Cobra, 2 Tempests. 2/3rds of them are only 2 structure points but they have nice guns though.
I will let the rest of my side worry about objectives. One more knight and I could flank march them, but the price for knights has jumped through the roof lately so alas I only have two.

Nexus Trimean
06-04-2009, 20:43
Massed artillary murders super heavies. 3 bassies have a 120 inch range, can hide out of LOS, and inflict tones of dammage. its even better when you have 9 for the formation. 6 bassies can destroy a warhound in a good round of shooting, key is use other heavy weapons, to drop the voids and then use art. to lay on the hurt.

Vaktathi
06-04-2009, 21:01
Massed artillary murders super heavies. 3 bassies have a 120 inch range, can hide out of LOS, and inflict tones of dammage. its even better when you have 9 for the formation. 6 bassies can destroy a warhound in a good round of shooting, key is use other heavy weapons, to drop the voids and then use art. to lay on the hurt.

that would have to be a hell of a round of shooting even without the void shields. On average against a WH without shields, assuming all 3 bassies hit, you might get one penetrate, and have a 1/3 chance to take off a structure point?

That would take 9 turns of such lucky shooting, by which point the WH should have vaporized those guns.

RCgothic
06-04-2009, 21:22
that would have to be a hell of a round of shooting even without the void shields. On average against a WH without shields, assuming all 3 bassies hit, you might get one penetrate, and have a 1/3 chance to take off a structure point?

That would take 9 turns of such lucky shooting, by which point the WH should have vaporized those guns.

Ordnance Barrages hit side armour. From 3 hits/no voids you'd get 1.66 penetrating hits, which isn't too bad. A full artillery battery is more dangerous. Still, only IG have serious artillery like that.

theshadowduke
06-04-2009, 21:49
Ordnance Barrages hit side armour.

Got a page on that?

Bodysnatcher
06-04-2009, 22:07
My Tau do reasonably against superheavies: Lots of railguns and fusion blasters. And the always unexpected unit of firewarriors with EMP grenades.

RCgothic
06-04-2009, 22:35
Got a page on that?

P60- Shooting at Vehicles
Subsection: Armour Penetration
Subsubsection:Template and Blast weapons against vehicles
Bullet point 1: The centre of the blast maker ends over the vehicle's hull
Last Sentence.


Hits from Barrage Weapons, however, always hit the vehicle's side armour (representing its top armour).

Damnably well hidden. Would have been better placed in the Weapon Type: Barrage section.

Lord Humongous
06-04-2009, 22:48
While I don't have a job, I'm very tempted to pick up a Hierophant (yes, the biggest one) just to even the playing field.

Pick up some vinyl toy monsters (for the head and maybe limby & gunny bits), some sculpting epoxy, armature wire, and a guide to sculpting instead. Much much cheaper, and not really all that difficult to get good results from, even without expereince.

warchild9
06-04-2009, 23:40
melta misiles from orbit for =I= armies make them move those super heavies

Vaktathi
07-04-2009, 00:15
Ordnance Barrages hit side armour. From 3 hits/no voids you'd get 1.66 penetrating hits, which isn't too bad. A full artillery battery is more dangerous. Still, only IG have serious artillery like that.

I forgot the Warhound is only AV13 on the side, I thought it was 14 :(

Even so, on average only removing a structure point every other turn means it's not super efficient.

RCgothic
07-04-2009, 00:18
Maybe not, but it's the best bet for a side without superheavies.

schottenjaeger
07-04-2009, 01:10
First of all, when calculating the odds for your titan, you forgot the "Precision Strike" asset, which I often pick against an enemy with one very powerful superheavy. 15-20 H-K missiles hitting on a 2+ >will< severely harm your titan, particularly when coupled with melta strikes.

The Strategic Redeployment asset, however, allows me to move my entire army to within 12" of your cordon on turn 1, and pop smoke. Your Disruptor Beacons are worthless. Infantry cordons do not last against heavy flamers, especially not Immolators with Blessed Promethium.*
While I don't doubt that you can mount a functional perimeter of Guard, a turn or two of tankshocking and flame weapons removes that bubble, at which point you have a great many things to worry about.
Further, even at 12", (I'd prefer to be at 13-15", to prevent you using Melta weaponry to full effect in the subsequent phase), I doubt you can kill enough of my Sisters and transports with your Guard and/or titans to survive the following turn of whithering rapidfire and flame templates..

So no, 9 Basilisks is >not< the best conventional force bet against a superheavy or multiple superheavies; it is merely one of several options.


*As you may or may not know, the Immolator can fire its twin heavy flamers even after moving 12". They force an automatic additional morale check if they cause even one wound with Holy Promethium, reroll wounds, and ignore cover saves.
I run 4, with smokes, dozer blades, promethium, and h-k missiles.

A1TEC
07-04-2009, 01:37
All the heavy weapons you can get!

MrBims
07-04-2009, 03:48
First of all, when calculating the odds for your titan, you forgot the "Precision Strike" asset, which I often pick against an enemy with one very powerful superheavy. 15-20 H-K missiles hitting on a 2+ >will< severely harm your titan, particularly when coupled with melta strikes.

Congratulations, you just wasted a stretegic asset to do 1.76 glancing hits on a Titan, just a little less than half a glancing hit more than you would've gotten without Precision Strike. And that's assuming you run with 20 missiles.


The Strategic Redeployment asset, however, allows me to move my entire army to within 12" of your cordon on turn 1, and pop smoke. Your Disruptor Beacons are worthless. Infantry cordons do not last against heavy flamers, especially not Immolators with Blessed Promethium.*
While I don't doubt that you can mount a functional perimeter of Guard, a turn or two of tankshocking and flame weapons removes that bubble, at which point you have a great many things to worry about.
Further, even at 12", (I'd prefer to be at 13-15", to prevent you using Melta weaponry to full effect in the subsequent phase), I doubt you can kill enough of my Sisters and transports with your Guard and/or titans to survive the following turn of whithering rapidfire and flame templates..

That sounds all fine and dandy, until we take into account a couple facts:
1) You may not shoot or assault any units you redeploy until your next turn.
2) Firing a Hunter-Killer missile requires that your vehicles not move their maximum speed, and stops them from firing other non-defensive weapons if they've moved more than six inches. So when exactly do you plan on firing the missiles?
3) If you fire all your missiles during your first shooting phase, to take advantage of the unlimited range and stop you from wasting a shooting phase after redeployment, then that is one whole turn that you're not redeploying the vehicles that you supposedly need to break through the enemy's back lines.
4) While you're messing around with one turn of firing missiles (to get 1.76 glancing shots on a Titan) and one turn of redeploying your units to get near his Titan, your opponent has had at least two shooting phases to knock out your units with his Titan and the rest of his big guns, three if he went first.
5) If you have to waste a turn of firing into the units protecting his Titan, before you can even approach it with powerfists/meltaguns/whatever, then that's another shooting phase that the Titan and the rest of the big guns have had to knock out your stuff. Do you think that after 3 or 4 shooting phases from a gunline IG army, you're going to have anything left to threaten his Titan with? And that's assuming you are even by this point capable of killing the units surrounding his Titan.


So no, 9 Basilisks is >not< the best conventional force bet against a superheavy or multiple superheavies; it is merely one of several options.

Honestly, I think the 9 Basilisks idea is garbage; it's a majorly inefficient point sink if you just plan on firing them at a Titan, but your suggestions aren't even options in comparison. I'm not trying to be mean, but these are some of the easiest ways to die when facing a Titan. You have the right idea, of getting up in the Titan's face, but your preparation is all wrong. Never use Strategic Redeployment; Outflank (especially with Flank March) and Deepstriking are infinitely preferable. And never use S8 weapons against a Titan, unless you can get it in melee.


*As you may or may not know, the Immolator can fire its twin heavy flamers even after moving 12". They force an automatic additional morale check if they cause even one wound with Holy Promethium, reroll wounds, and ignore cover saves.
I run 4, with smokes, dozer blades, promethium, and h-k missiles.

The Immolator is also 11/11/10. Not exactly very difficult for an IG army to take out. Especially not if the enemy has two or three free shooting phases.

schottenjaeger
07-04-2009, 06:35
That sounds all fine and dandy, until we take into account a couple facts:
1) Taken into account: it's the flexibility of having that move anywhere from turn one to turn 6 that I like.

2/3/4)Generally speaking, turn 1 - fire missiles from cover. Enemy panics, hopefully wildy shoots bolt. Turn 2: redeploy to point-blank, emphasizing units that are actually going for objectives; pop smoke. Turn three: burn.

5) >> Do you think that after 3 or 4 shooting phases from a gunline IG army, you're going to have anything left to threaten his Titan with? And that's assuming you are even by this point capable of killing the units surrounding his Titan.
This is your key misconception. After 2-3 enemy shooting phases, with 4+ cover at a minimum? Yes, I rather do think I will be capable of some killing. Further, in my experience, Gunline IG is entirely overrated against mechanized armies.

>>You have the right idea, of getting up in the Titan's face, but your preparation is all wrong. Never use Strategic Redeployment; Outflank (especially with Flank March) and Deepstriking are infinitely preferable. And never use S8 weapons against a Titan, unless you can get it in melee.

Save that SR ignores the Disruptor Beacon. Your "preferable methods" are almost invariably and immediately countered: any sane player, as you point out, would take it to protect his units - unless he plans to use Outflank, which this tactic renders pointless as well. It's a case of rock-paper-scissors against the most common and "best" tactics in my local area these days.

To answer your second "question", every one of my primary anti-tank weapons is S8. And AP 1. The H-k missiles strip void shields, panic the enemy, and damage his vehicle(s) in preparation for the real punch; with good luck, they'll cripple the vehicle. With average luck, it's not shooting in the coming turn, which is all I can really ask some days.

>>The Immolator is also 11/11/10. Not exactly very difficult for an IG army to take out. Especially not if the enemy has two or three free shooting phases.

The Immolator deploys with ~16 other armored vehicles on the table. The IG are spoiled for riches. Correctly indentifying the true target is often difficult, especially with a pair of HD6 S8 AP1 vehicles staring down your side or rear armor, behind smoke, on turn 2 - let alone the mass of Rhinos toting Meltas and Hflamers suddenly in position on your infantry. Even shooting the vehicles leaves your vulnerable infantry within rapidfire/flame template range, and dedicating firepower to the squads on the ground leaves more vehicles standing on turn 3, when the dying really starts...

Nexus Trimean
07-04-2009, 06:54
What infantry? and your Immolaters wont get close enough, My titan will be 36 inches away from my own front line infantry, not to mention the squads that guard its flanks. Flank march is good, but it is more hit an miss than the artillary option if you ask me. and the artillary is more flexable, you dont have to hit the titan with it, it just as good as taking out anything else (except terminators) but i play a siege IG force, pie plate from afar, there are enough other players to balance out my artilary force.

using 9 bassies, you will get on average 6 Direct hits, (spoting rounds, one of three will be a hit) S9 Vs AV 13 4+ thats 1 glance 2 pens, in one round. and thats just average.

Its a big points sink, but, it can hit anything and doesnt need to see it to do so, it is also less vulnerable itsself. you can drop 300 pts on a suicide unit to kill a titan, but i will sit back with 1000 points of indirect and keep blasting anything else that gets in my way.

DarkPrince
07-04-2009, 07:05
Tau can counter Super Heavies. Just use a whole bunch of Hammerheads. They also kick Dreadnoughts....

TimLeeson
07-04-2009, 07:24
Dont care about em myself, only care about infantry and only infantry.

DarkPrince
07-04-2009, 07:27
Yeah, wat army you play?

RCgothic
07-04-2009, 12:38
2/3/4)Generally speaking, turn 1 - fire missiles from cover. Enemy panics, hopefully wildy shoots bolt. Turn 2: redeploy to point-blank, emphasizing units that are actually going for objectives; pop smoke. Turn three: burn.

Even 20 missiles hitting on a 2+ won't scare a titan, because they'll be the only thing with a long enough range to hit it. 2 glancing hits won't stop it shooting back. And if you do miraculously get a weapon destroyed result, I usually have a techmarine lurking.


5)
This is your key misconception. After 2-3 enemy shooting phases, with 4+ cover at a minimum? Yes, I rather do think I will be capable of some killing. Further, in my experience, Gunline IG is entirely overrated against mechanized armies.

D weapons ignore cover. After 3 turns of shooting I'd estimate my titan alone will have killed maybe 30 sisters and 5 vehicles by itself.
You also clearly haven't faced a guard army with plenty of autocannons. Massed autocannons shred mechanised armies. After 3 turns you WILL be footslogging.


Save that SR ignores the Disruptor Beacon. Your "preferable methods" are almost invariably and immediately countered: any sane player, as you point out, would take it to protect his units - unless he plans to use Outflank, which this tactic renders pointless as well. It's a case of rock-paper-scissors against the most common and "best" tactics in my local area these days.

SR may ignore Disruptor beacon, but first you have to blow a hole in my lines so large that it's still bigger than 24" at the beginning of your next movement phase, which is unlikely. And you still wouldn't be within 12" of my titan. Outflanking units still have to get past the units helf back for precisely this purpose.


To answer your second "question", every one of my primary anti-tank weapons is S8. And AP 1. The H-k missiles strip void shields, panic the enemy, and damage his vehicle(s) in preparation for the real punch; with good luck, they'll cripple the vehicle. With average luck, it's not shooting in the coming turn, which is all I can really ask some days.

Which is precisely why my titan is sitting so far back. AP1 weapons also don't affect superheavies, so it's actually impossible to destroy a titan head on with S8 weapons anyway.

The Immolator deploys with ~16 other armored vehicles on the table. The IG are spoiled for riches. Correctly indentifying the true target is often difficult, especially with a pair of HD6 S8 AP1 vehicles staring down your side or rear armor, behind smoke, on turn 2 - let alone the mass of Rhinos toting Meltas and Hflamers suddenly in position on your infantry. Even shooting the vehicles leaves your vulnerable infantry within rapidfire/flame template range, and dedicating firepower to the squads on the ground leaves more vehicles standing on turn 3, when the dying really starts...
My infantry will be dug in. Because of my superheavy support and your inability to touch it from range, you have to come to me. It will be a stand-up fight which even with sisters renowned close-in firefight skills you don't have much chance of winning.

It isn't a game of rock paper scizzors. All the tactics that can be deployed against a superheavy vehicle can be guarded against by a prudent player. A side with superheavies has an overwhelming advantage against an opponent without the means to deal with it at long range.

cruise
07-04-2009, 16:49
Interestingly, we played pretty much exactly "kill the super-heavies" the other day:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191232

Amusing and fun, but hardly fair on the super-heavies...

Malorian
07-04-2009, 16:57
My marines don't have any super heavies and they do just fine. Just dedicate a havoc squad to each super heavy, and you may not destroy it but you'll rattle it around enough that it won't do that much damage.

It also depends on how you play the game though. I play to a turn limit and usually find apoc games go 3-4 turns, and in that time the super heavies can only kill so much, plus now they can't even capture objectives.

RCgothic
07-04-2009, 17:47
I played a game with my Warhound and Reaver (2.2k pts) vs 4.5k of tank hunting troops/vehicles and a baneblade.

The table was big enough, but I was feeling generous, so the titans started out within range of the enemy's anti-tank weapons. Despite being outnumbered 2:1, the titans slaughtered about 3k points before going down, and that was with them being played generously to my opponents.

DinoDoc
07-04-2009, 19:31
Guys as entertaining as it is watching people theoryhammer without anyone bothering to post an army list and detailing the strat behind it, don't you think you're carrying this on a bit long? I'm starting to think some of the invincible players are lieing.