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View Full Version : Land Raider Disparity [closed: gone off topic]



Latro_
05-04-2009, 13:34
Ok so I played my mate's marines last night and he had a land raider, this is my first time up against a LR since the new marine codex and to be honest I was shocked.

The whole move and fire both lascannons! at seperate targets! shocking. My poor chaos marines the 30pts difference is just silly, that kinda functionality is worth 60 pts i'd say!

So in that vain since marines have got it so good, I'm going to model my chaos land raider I am doing with the lascannons on the top so they are always gonna have LOS hehe, screw em!

MajorWesJanson
05-04-2009, 13:36
Can't Chaos Possess their Raiders to ignore shaken and stunned? Makes for different methods of using them.

Plastic Parody
05-04-2009, 13:44
The predator and vindicator are more expensive too. On the otherhand the Chaos marine dex is arguably capable of having much more punch in hth than marines so why shouldnt they pay more for an assault tank, after all even their basic marines have an extra attack over loyalist marines.

O&G'sRule
05-04-2009, 13:46
Ok so I played my mate's marines last night and he had a land raider, this is my first time up against a LR since the new marine codex and to be honest I was shocked.

The whole move and fire both lascannons! at seperate targets! shocking. My poor chaos marines the 30pts difference is just silly, that kinda functionality is worth 60 pts i'd say!

So in that vain since marines have got it so good, I'm going to model my chaos land raider I am doing with the lascannons on the top so they are always gonna have LOS hehe, screw em!

Can't believe you're still whining lol

Latro_
05-04-2009, 13:52
haha neil? alright man.

its ok mate I have 4 oblitertors now. :) bloody 8 tank mounted marine army grrr (mutters to himself in the corner),

O&G'sRule
05-04-2009, 13:59
haha neil? alright man.

its ok mate I have 4 oblitertors now. :).

you'll need them if he does the guard list he was writing last night, Valkyries get 3 twin linked lascannons for 130pts, can move 6" and still fire all 3

Grand Master Raziel
05-04-2009, 14:15
Yeah, the Valkyrie is just sick. Better firepower than a Predator, roughly equivalent armor (12/12/10 vs 13/11/10), better ability to move and fire, fast skimmer, can carry troops, and it's a Fast Attack choice! Eek.

MajorWesJanson
05-04-2009, 14:20
It's also cheaper than a Pred Annihilator.

Atr_127
05-04-2009, 14:47
its also massive, highly visible, and impossible to hide. also, dont underestimate that extra point of armour, 13 is a lot better than 12. lastly, it is still only BS 3, which means that its twin lascannons hit on a 2.5+, roughly equivilant to those on a BS 4 predator with only one twin linked.

The_Outsider
05-04-2009, 14:53
Hey guys I heard marines have 3+ armour saves, is this true?

If so this is BS how on earth are my splinter rifles going to kill marines!? Yet more proof that GW has a massive hard-on for the boys in blue.

GeneralDisaster
05-04-2009, 15:07
Hey guys I heard marines have 3+ armour saves, is this true?

If so this is BS how on earth are my splinter rifles going to kill marines!? Yet more proof that GW has a massive hard-on for the boys in blue.

I'm sorry, but shut up.

Marines have had a +3 armour save since RT. Nothing new there. Your splinter rifles will kill marines the way everyone else does. Attrition. The DE are as badly placed to kill Marines as everyone else, and haven't had a codex for 10 years or so.

That alone brings a shred of dignity to your argument, but it is, on the whole, immature. Grow up and face the facts. If you are scared of +3 Saves, don't play against Marines. End of.

Der Feldmarschal

Acolyte
05-04-2009, 15:16
Somebody obviously failed 'Recognize Sarcasm 101'.

mattschuur
05-04-2009, 15:20
The_outsider's post is a joke. For us non-Marine centric players hearing a marine complain about something is ridiculous and we like to point out the ridiculousness at every opportunity.

Frankly complaining that a Chaos Land Raider is 30 points cheaper than a Loyalist which can fire 1 extra weapon is not a significant gripe. Especially since, as someone mentioned, that they get Daemonic possession which means they ignore 2/3 of the glance chart. Its as bad as complaining that Splinter rifles can't auto kill marines. Get it?:D

Ninja'd.

matt schuur

GeneralDisaster
05-04-2009, 15:30
Sorry if I failed to recognise sarcasm.

So many people complain about Marines it is hard to see it.

I apologise.

Der Feldmarschal

Latro_
05-04-2009, 15:35
Its the fact they can move 6" and fire both lascannons at completely different targets thats the swine! Lets face it, they only implemented the rule because of the shinny new redeemer model they did., it'd be rubbish if it coudlent use both flamers.

Daemonic possessin is 20pts and takes it to almost the same cost as the loyal one, ignoring the shaken result is imo rubbish when your bs is now 3!, you can ignore stunned with extra armour, and loyal lr's can take that should they wish.

I'm going to make sure LR's die with 5 lascannon blasts next game :) wasent really whinning with this thread, just highlighting how huge the disparity is. I'd feel a bit bitter about taking a LR in my chaos army.

Marshal Argos
05-04-2009, 15:44
Yeah but the LR could fire at 2 different targets all the back in 3rd Ed as well. I believe 4th Edition is where it changed to only being able to fire at one. So no I don't think they only implemented the rule to give SM something extra...

MajorWesJanson
05-04-2009, 15:54
Daemonic possessin is 20pts and takes it to almost the same cost as the loyal one, ignoring the shaken result is imo rubbish when your bs is now 3!, you can ignore stunned with extra armour, and loyal lr's can take that should they wish.

Hmm, BS3 twin linked weapons, even if shaken or stunned, or 1 BS4 Twin linked weapon if shaken, and 15 points to make stunned just shaken. Still seems pretty fair. Don't forget the cheaper terminators with combi-weapons you can carry :D

Poseidal
05-04-2009, 17:21
Marines have had a +3 armour save since RT. Nothing new there. Your splinter rifles will kill marines the way everyone else does. Attrition.

Actually, they haven't.

In RT they had a 4+ save. And T3.

maelstrom66669
05-04-2009, 17:31
While I dont like it, the loyalist marines do need something to balance out their weakness in close combat. My LR's dont shoot much anyway, their too busy racing around dropping off axe weilding maniacs.

Mojaco
05-04-2009, 18:36
Hasn't been much of a problem so far. Driving 12" and still shooting, that's something I'm more jealous of actually :)

220 pt landraiders are not a bad deal too, you know?

Takitron
05-04-2009, 18:39
Hey guys I heard marines have 3+ armour saves, is this true?

If so this is BS how on earth are my splinter rifles going to kill marines!? Yet more proof that GW has a massive hard-on for the boys in blue.


I'm sorry, but shut up.

Marines have had a +3 armour save since RT. Nothing new there. Your splinter rifles will kill marines the way everyone else does. Attrition. The DE are as badly placed to kill Marines as everyone else, and haven't had a codex for 10 years or so.

That alone brings a shred of dignity to your argument, but it is, on the whole, immature. Grow up and face the facts. If you are scared of +3 Saves, don't play against Marines. End of.

Der Feldmarschal

BRAVO OUTSIDER! Man, GeneralDisaster took that troll bait hook, line, and sinker! Wow!

Culsandar
05-04-2009, 23:48
Oh, quit yer whining.

I can fit 6 Land Raiders into an 1850 point list.

RCgothic
05-04-2009, 23:54
Its the fact they can move 6" and fire both lascannons at completely different targets thats the swine! Lets face it, they only implemented the rule because of the shinny new redeemer model they did., it'd be rubbish if it coudlent use both flamers.

Which Ironically it would have been able to under the 4th ed defensive weapons rules. :rolleyes:

zeep
06-04-2009, 02:23
I'm sorry, but shut up.

Marines have had a +3 armour save since RT. Nothing new there. Your splinter rifles will kill marines the way everyone else does. Attrition. The DE are as badly placed to kill Marines as everyone else, and haven't had a codex for 10 years or so.

That alone brings a shred of dignity to your argument, but it is, on the whole, immature. Grow up and face the facts. If you are scared of +3 Saves, don't play against Marines. End of.

Der Feldmarschal

First, he was being sarcastic
Second, marines didn't have a 3+ save in rogue trader, it was 4+.

mughi3
06-04-2009, 03:37
ROFLOL
silly chaos marine

at least you dont get the shaft like us dark angels players. our land raiders have a machine spirit...the same one in fact as the one in the new C:SM except we still have to use the old rules for them from 4th edition because GW doesn't want to bother to bring the statline for all like standard gear into parity.

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 04:14
Hey guys I heard marines have 3+ armour saves, is this true?

If so this is BS how on earth are my splinter rifles going to kill marines!? Yet more proof that GW has a massive hard-on for the boys in blue.

And that is why you don't play SAFH Dark Eldar.

maelstrom66669
06-04-2009, 04:18
ROFLOL
silly chaos marine

at least you dont get the shaft like us dark angels players. our land raiders have a machine spirit...the same one in fact as the one in the new C:SM except we still have to use the old rules for them from 4th edition because GW doesn't want to bother to bring the statline for all like standard gear into parity.

Yeah chaos shouldnt worry to much... we will probably have a new book before DA does. XD

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 04:19
Yeah chaos shouldnt worry to much... we will probably have a new book before DA does. XD

I would hope so.

Xandros
06-04-2009, 04:20
I think the cheaper land raider fits well with the Chaos Space Marine's primal, brutal and primitive style of combat.

brassangel
06-04-2009, 04:26
Hasn't been much of a problem so far. Driving 12" and still shooting, that's something I'm more jealous of actually :)

220 pt landraiders are not a bad deal too, you know?


I think the cheaper land raider fits well with the Chaos Space Marine's primal, brutal and primitive style of combat.

Not to mention that Land Raider can carry Khorne Terminators or Berzerkers, or Abaddabadoobadon.

The "Chaos should be better because they're 10,000 years old, plus they've gotten demonic gifts! Chaos shud pzwn teh ub8r nutz!!!!!!11!11!!!!!11!1111!!111" argument doesn't work. They've given up tactical discipline, righteous fury, and hardened focus for some sorcery and a tentacle.

Taipan
06-04-2009, 04:46
They've given up tactical discipline, righteous fury, and hardened focus for some sorcery and a tentacle.

Lol, talk about reducing something to absurdity....Chaos Marines have over 10,000 years experience in battle (not to mention fighting in the largest Crusade ever mounted by the Imperium, on a scale that isn't repeated outside of places like Armageddon or the Eye), most Chapter Masters can barely muster 400 years experience. Sure, most have gone insane and serve one of the Four Gods, but that doesn't mean they should be worse than Ultramarines in terms of vehicles and wargear (in terms of the background).

I think it's a balance issue. If their 'spiky loyalist copy' stuff was as good as loyalist stuff, plus they have stuff like Obliterators, Defilers etc they'd be even more instant-win than they are now. So, GW nerf the Chaos versions, but the unique stuff remains powerful and effective.

Look guys, just accept that Chaos Landraiders suck, and belong on your display shelf, to menace the wall.

Defilers and Obliterators work just fine, Vindicators are ok but can't fight in combat like Defilers. Stick to those three options and you'll be fine. Don't waste your time with Landraiders, Havoks or Predators, they're all horrible.

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 05:10
I couldn't say that I care less about having better Land Raiders, since Land Raiders suck anyways. Land Raiders are ineffective, and meant for the easiest army to beat, the Space Marines, since they haven't got any other tricks up their sleeves besides better wargear. (well, necrons and guard are worse due to codex creep)


They've given up tactical discipline, righteous fury, and hardened focus for some sorcery and a tentacle.

Nope. Actually all of their equipment is more powerful because of the addition of the demonic. And no, they are actually not undisciplined, they have been fighting for 10,000 years, and are much more powerful individually as well due to their demonic gifts.

This reminds me of some of the blue-boy fluff where one ultramarine who is firing a missile launcher at a chaos encampment kills 5 chaos marines with every krak shot, while still remaining completely concealed from the chaos marines. The 20 Chaos Marines run back and forth waiting for themselves to be picked off by the magical missile launcher.

AngryAngel
06-04-2009, 05:27
Oh no marines have something that chaos marines don't ?!?!?! Seriously, can't you take some joy in your demon run vehicles ? Perhaps your awesome troops ? No ? How about some nice Oblits ? Or if none of that, you could perhaps enjoy your cheaper base terms, who have shed loads of weapon choices.

Point here is, relax, I know the new machine spirit rules are nice. Some of us though have to not have it, and not whine about it. Like the Dark Angels, when your in the same boat as we are, then perhaps say something, but your not so relax. It could always be worse.

Dexter099
06-04-2009, 05:38
That's what I'm saying. The Marines have to have good wargear to level themselves out with Chaos since they don't have enhanced statistics and demonic special weapons.

Taipan
06-04-2009, 05:44
I couldn't say that I care less about having better Land Raiders, since Land Raiders suck anyways. Land Raiders are ineffective, and meant for the easiest army to beat, the Space Marines, since they haven't got any other tricks up their sleeves besides better wargear. (well, necrons and guard are worse due to codex creep)

:wtf: I said CHAOS Landraider suck. Ultramarine and Grey Knight Landraiders are delicious ownsauce. Mainly because they;

- Are AV14 on all facings (and thus make most armies cry bitter tears of frustration as nothing short of melta can kill them reliably)
- Can fire two weapons while moving 6" (at different targets), and still shoot one gun while moving 12". Crusaders can fire all guns while moving 6", GK Crusaders can fire all but one gun while moving 12".
- Even while shaken (no one leaves home without extra armour), they can still fire one gun.
- Can transport Terminators and Troops safely across the board (in the case of the Crusader they also hand out free frags when you charge out of it)

Nothing else in 40k comes close, with the exception of the broken Monolith (which people just ignore anyway and go for Phase Out). Tack on smoke launchers (Ultramarines get 4+ cover, GK's reduce all damage to glancing), and it just becomes unfair.


This reminds me of some of the blue-boy fluff where one ultramarine who is firing a missile launcher at a chaos encampment kills 5 chaos marines with every krak shot, while still remaining completely concealed from the chaos marines. The 20 Chaos Marines run back and forth waiting for themselves to be picked off by the magical missile launcher.

:rolleyes: See, more proof Ultramarines need to be shown how it's done by the best Astartes. Instead of messing about with a missile launcher, hiding like a pansy, Grey Knights would teleport in there and hack the traitors to pieces ;) .


Or if none of that, you could perhaps enjoy your cheaper base terms, who have shed loads of weapon choices.

Not really. Reapers are piles of dog **** (in addition to being overly expensive), and combi-weapons are one-use (awesome, but only for one turn). When you add in the upgrade to lightning claw (to replace the power weapon), Icon of Slannesh/Tzeentch, mandatory 1-2 chainfists, heavy flamer and combi-plasma, they end up being about 5-10pts more per model than loyalists. They're worth it, but you do have to shell out.
They also don't have access to ass-cans or cyclones, which means they have to kill things up close as opposed to Rending/spamming krak missile.


Point here is, relax, I know the new machine spirit rules are nice. Some of us though have to not have it, and not whine about it. Like the Dark Angles, when your in the same boat as we are, then perhaps say something, but your not so relax. It could always be worse.

I agree. Just don't take Chaos Landraiders :D take the much more powerful Obliterators/Defilers.

Ozeor
06-04-2009, 06:12
Chaos are not 10,000 years old, They are same age as SM they recruit the same way normal marines do, with alot more force and guile involved I'm sure. The only ones still around since the time of the emperor is the princes and bigger.

Chaos gave up there curve on technology when they gave up the Imperium, now they just gotta steal it. Funny I haven't seen any chaos crusaders or redeemers kicking around.

PhantomRonin
06-04-2009, 06:25
you know if it wasn't for all the whining, I'd probably enjoy my marine and necron armies better.

maelstrom66669
06-04-2009, 06:32
Chaos LR's dont suck, imperials are just a little better, like I said before, they need something to make up for their melee anyways. Some of you are a little touchy dont you think?

Ubermensch Commander
06-04-2009, 07:06
Lol, talk about reducing something to absurdity....Chaos Marines have over 10,000 years experience in battle (not to mention fighting in the largest Crusade ever mounted by the Imperium, on a scale that isn't repeated outside of places like Armageddon or the Eye), most Chapter Masters can barely muster 400 years experience. Sure, most have gone insane and serve one of the Four Gods, but that doesn't mean they should be worse than Ultramarines in terms of vehicles and wargear (in terms of the background).

I think it's a balance issue. If their 'spiky loyalist copy' stuff was as good as loyalist stuff, plus they have stuff like Obliterators, Defilers etc they'd be even more instant-win than they are now. So, GW nerf the Chaos versions, but the unique stuff remains powerful and effective.

Look guys, just accept that Chaos Landraiders suck, and belong on your display shelf, to menace the wall.

Defilers and Obliterators work just fine, Vindicators are ok but can't fight in combat like Defilers. Stick to those three options and you'll be fine. Don't waste your time with Landraiders, Havoks or Predators, they're all horrible.

Choas Landraiders hardly suck, especially with what they can deliever. Other than that I agree with most of your description of Vindies Defilers and Oblits.

*blah blah removed because its been said before*

Ask Grand Master Raziel for a more erudite and extensive reasoning for why "Army of 10,000 year veterans" is just plain silly.

But most importanlty, my dear Chaos players, remember you are playing the chumps who LOST.
:p

StormWulfen
06-04-2009, 07:24
Chaos are not 10,000 years old, They are same age as SM they recruit the same way normal marines do, with alot more force and guile involved I'm sure. The only ones still around since the time of the emperor is the princes and bigger.

see now that depends on whether you are looking at renegade chapters/warbands or traitor legions, a lot of the traitor legions are still the same space marine that fought in the heresy, but obviosly the do have newer members (but i would hardly think the way they recruit is the same as loyal chapters:evilgrin:). renegade chapters/warband on the other hand don't neccessaraly have that many years experiance.

now on to the point why does everyone rely on land raiders so much? have they really become so neccessary for SM/CSM players to win? i mainly use rhino's and IMHO they are better than land raiders, sure they cant shell out tons of firepower but if you see a land raider and a rhino in your opponents army wich are you more likely to focus your shooting on? it is by that thought that my rhinos tend to survive whole game relativly unscathed (there is also alot of competition at my club about who can kill my rhinos, belive it or not people do find it very difficult:D)

my 600 cents;)

Taipan
06-04-2009, 07:54
Chaos are not 10,000 years old, They are same age as SM they recruit the same way normal marines do, with alot more force and guile involved I'm sure. The only ones still around since the time of the emperor is the princes and bigger.


Er yes they are. They only way they die is in battle/horrible accidents, they're effectively immortal. Of course, the passage of time and many battles have whittled down the numbers, but there are still plenty of veterans who lived through the Heresy left. Their numbers are bolstered by newer recruits and more recent renegade Marines, but they can't replace everyone. Khorne Beserkers for example, utilise lost technology that accelerates their brain from 'angry' to 'frothing mad'.


Chaos gave up there curve on technology when they gave up the Imperium, now they just gotta steal it. Funny I haven't seen any chaos crusaders or redeemers kicking around.

Well, not yet ;) but rest assured, just as the Vindicator got added the armoury, I'm sure a suitably Chaos version of the Redeemer (perhaps cannons that fire warp-flame, in a similiar manner to 'Winds of Chaos') will eventuate. If not, just write a data-sheet for it.


Chaos LR's dont suck, imperials are just a little better, like I said before, they need something to make up for their melee anyways. Some of you are a little touchy dont you think?

Well, that doesn't really make sense. They already balanced the superior close-combat abilities of Chaos Marines by depriving them of 'ATSKNF' (although we get re-rollable Ld10 to make up for it). Why screw with the Landraider? Anyway, Daemonic Possession is like a cheaper version of Chronus, and the lascannons are twin-linked anyway so it's not a big loss to go to BS3. It sorta balances out in the end (although it's annoying not being able to move+shoot with the Chaos Raider).


But most importanlty, my dear Chaos players, remember you are playing the chumps who LOST.

Meh, they went up against the most powerful human psyker ever born, and tried to break open the most well-defended fortress in the Imperium. The Dark Gods underestimated the Emperor's resolve, and for that they lost out. Plus, writer bias means they were doomed to failure, cos the bad guys cant ever win ;) .


now on to the point why does everyone rely on land raiders so much? have they really become so neccessary for SM/CSM players to win? i mainly use rhino's and IMHO they are better than land raiders, sure they cant shell out tons of firepower but if you see a land raider and a rhino in your opponents army wich are you more likely to focus your shooting on? it is by that thought that my rhinos tend to survive whole game relativly unscathed (there is also alot of competition at my club about who can kill my rhinos, belive it or not people do find it very difficult)

- They're not neccesary for Chaos Marines, although they can be good as a transport for a Chaos Lord+attached Beserkers (if you have a fluffy army). Good delivery system for Kharn or Abaddon.
- Ultramarines have all the variants, but they don't really need them. Can be good for delivery of TH+SS Terminators or Honor Guard. As you said, you can get by with Rhinos for most squads.
- They're essential in Grey Knight armies at 1,750pts+. We don't have any other options as far as transports go, and we badly need more anti-tank.

Grazzy
06-04-2009, 09:41
Chaos LR's are still good, as they go along with your cheap termies.

If I was a chaos player the fact they dont have the Crusdaer would annoy me more as IMO it is the best tank in the game.

devolutionary
06-04-2009, 09:47
see now that depends on whether you are looking at renegade chapters/warbands or traitor legions, a lot of the traitor legions are still the same space marine that fought in the heresy,

Correct, they fought in the Heresy. But they spend most of their time in the time-bending warp, which means that they may have less actual fighting experience than a Terminator in a loyalist chapter.

StormWulfen
06-04-2009, 09:53
Correct, they fought in the Heresy. But they spend most of their time in the time-bending warp, which means that they may have less actual fighting experience than a Terminator in a loyalist chapter.

just remember that while they are in the warp/eye of terror they are just as likely to fight other warbands/legions to gain the favour of chaos gods(or just because they dont like them:p.) they don't just sit there and twiddle their thumbs waiting for there lord to decide to attack some other world.

The_Outsider
06-04-2009, 11:29
ITT chaos players use fluff to claim they need to have the most powerful gear a fluffy tank for their IW army.

The chaos LR is fine, while it fills a very similar role to that of the loyalist version, the contents of the rest of the codex dramtically alter what the LR is capable of. The chaos LR does not need to shoot anywhere near as much as the loyalist version as the chaos codex hold nearly all the best CC choices in the game (some of which come in very cheaply) and can be backed up in ways the loyalists simply cannot manage.

Lord Damocles
06-04-2009, 11:39
It could be worse...


...it could be an Inquisition land Raider


:cries:

O&G'sRule
07-04-2009, 12:28
Well, not yet ;) but rest assured, just as the Vindicator got added the armoury, I'm sure a suitably Chaos version of the Redeemer (perhaps cannons that fire warp-flame, in a similiar manner to 'Winds of Chaos') will eventuate. If not, just write a data-sheet for it.




That would certainly make sense if the do a Thousand Son codex as rumoured

The Clairvoyant
07-04-2009, 13:19
10,000 year-old land raiders must have had quite a few clutch changes.
And i bet the mpg is terrible

O&G'sRule
07-04-2009, 13:34
10,000 year-old land raiders must have had quite a few clutch changes.
And i bet the mpg is terrible

Its still technology from 28000 years in the future so perhaps not

PapaDoc
07-04-2009, 14:05
My biggest problem with the chaos landraider is that it can only transport 10 dudes. Why can't we transport twelve?

What I find more intriguing is that people are wildly defending the chaos landraider of suck. Who the hell is fielding those "cheap and good" terminators it can transport?

Do you guys really enjoy facing Lash princes, plauge marines and obliterators so much?

I really did not know this.

Poseidal
07-04-2009, 14:29
My biggest problem with the chaos landraider is that it can only transport 10 dudes. Why can't we transport twelve?
The spiky bits mean they risk impalement if they squeeze in 12, so they have to spread out more to avoid this risk thus reducing the effective capacity.

AngryAngel
07-04-2009, 16:26
Oh my word, let it drop guys seriously. If Dark Angels players ( me and others ) can deal with a worse power of the machine spirit, you can deal with your lack of it. We also deal with inferior equipment from our other loyalist brothers. Like reduced carrying capacity on self same landraider being but one more of them. Couple that with some pointless increased costs, and no real balancing factor unlike chaos marines rock hardness.

It's cool, don't worry on it. Just use the tools ya like if ya don't like the Landraider. I think the Raider is totally cool even with what it can do, but thats just me.

If all you want to field is lash princes and oblits and justify it with "our landraiders suck!! ", grow up. You want to field them because you want to, the stats of the landraider which are still good, are simply a scape goat for wishing to be beardy. It's good to have things, other then yourself to blame that kinda thing on.

At the end of the day, its you deciding to not use an option simply because your angry it isn't as good as someone elses, and that fact is highly in question. Why not actually use those cheap and good terms in that demon driven landraider, might surprise yourself. Some of us have do with just as expensive but worse landraiders, and even more expensive and highly questionable better terms.

Yet somehow, we make it work, how is that ?

Vaktathi
07-04-2009, 16:38
Chaos are not 10,000 years old, They are same age as SM they recruit the same way normal marines do, with alot more force and guile involved I'm sure. The only ones still around since the time of the emperor is the princes and bigger. Um, not really. Half the fluff around CSM's still portrays many of them as veterans of the Great Crusade. Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple, Storm of Iron, Dead Sky Black Sun, the Dawn of War games, and pretty much every codex but the current one (which simply doesn't mention much about the Legions at all) emphasize this a lot.



Chaos gave up there curve on technology when they gave up the Imperium, now they just gotta steal it. Funny I haven't seen any chaos crusaders or redeemers kicking around.Those aren't exactly technological advances, they are just weapon swaps, nothing more. CSM's just don't get them so they remain somewhat different than normal SM's. They may get them in the future.



Correct, they fought in the Heresy. But they spend most of their time in the time-bending warp, which means that they may have less actual fighting experience than a Terminator in a loyalist chapter. You know they do fight things in there. A lot. Like daemons, and each other. And in the Warp they could be there for 100,000 years of their own time just as easily as it could only be 100 days.




My biggest problem with the chaos landraider is that it can only transport 10 dudes. Why can't we transport twelve?
This is my main contention.

The newest SM book made a *ton* of changes to SM vehicles, and LR's got insanely buffed while remaining the same cost and none of these changes were made retroactive to previous codex's. I can accept CSM LR's not having PotMS in exchange for Daemonic Possession, but the lower transport capacity is just *********** lame, and not just for CSM's but for other books as well.

Grazzy
07-04-2009, 16:56
It is crazy.

Inquisitors, Grey Knights, marines, DA and BA all have different raiders and variants. If only they were standardised (although chaos should have a different raider as they do not have the machine god)

Xandros
07-04-2009, 17:01
This is my main contention.

The newest SM book made a *ton* of changes to SM vehicles, and LR's got insanely buffed while remaining the same cost and none of these changes were made retroactive to previous codex's. I can accept CSM LR's not having PotMS in exchange for Daemonic Possession, but the lower transport capacity is just *********** lame, and not just for CSM's but for other books as well.

Why do you expect GW to be consistent when it's up to us to make sense of their mess? On the contrary, they are to an extent consistent in their policy of codices
being completely standalone, however demented I may think it is. The question is if you would rather want similar units to not evolve in between codex releases.

Latro_
07-04-2009, 18:08
hehe i had not even noticed the transport capacity thing! its gets worse!

hmm, If they can write an FAQ to say the rhino firepoint can be used by two models, they could 'at least' FAQ it so the bloody transport capacity is the same! that 'is' silly.

The_Outsider
07-04-2009, 18:10
hmm, If they can write an FAQ to say the rhino firepoint can be used by two models, they could 'at least' FAQ it so the bloody transport capacity is the same! that 'is' silly.

It is called about a year difference in development cycles.

Corrode
07-04-2009, 18:21
10,000 year-old land raiders must have had quite a few clutch changes.
And i bet the mpg is terrible

On the plus side, a Land Raider that's survived that long without being destroyed must have accrued one hell of a No Claims Bonus.

AmBlam
07-04-2009, 19:23
ITT chaos players use fluff to claim they need to have the most powerful gear a fluffy tank for their IW army.


chaos codex hold nearly all the best CC choices in the game

Since we're on planet Outsider I'm going to make an invisible cup of tea, would anyone like one?

The_Outsider
07-04-2009, 21:29
Since we're on planet Outsider I'm going to make an invisible cup of tea, would anyone like one?

Yeah its not like berzerkers or chosen or CSM or raptors or pretty much all the HQ's or even possesed are even good at CC is it?

Man berzerkers just plain suck! 4 WS5 S5 I5 attacks on the charge being backed up by the stats of a fearless marine is crap right?

Latro_
07-04-2009, 21:38
Yeah its not like berzerkers or chosen or CSM or raptors or pretty much all the HQ's or even possesed are even good at CC is it?

Man berzerkers just plain suck! 4 WS5 S5 I5 attacks on the charge being backed up by the stats of a fearless marine is crap right?


8 bezerkers with champ with fist are 8pts more than 5 marine terminators armed with thunder hammers and storm shields
and since we're 'on the charging it' get 15 s8 no save thunder hammer attacks with a 2+ save and a 3+inv save.

I know which i'd be more scared of :P

They are a great shock unit yes, however they are 100% vanilla space marines when you smack them back in the face... No they don't suck but they're not the demigods of CC people seem to think. and like all slow moving elite troops who are vulnerable to return fire and are expensive, are often mowed down in the next turn of the game from enemy fire as in 5th ed you cannot consolidate into a fresh enemy.

You have to either be very lucky or very clever with them or take the elite troop with a bit more last ability, plauge marines :D.

The_Outsider
07-04-2009, 21:43
not the demigods of CC people seem to think.

They, unlike those terminators though do not need a LR to actually get them into a fight, mass rhino rush with berzerkers is still something you don't scoff at, while a LR is a joke typically unless you have a chronic allergy to lascannons, or play tyranids or necrons.

Dexter099
08-04-2009, 04:21
Chaos are not 10,000 years old, They are same age as SM they recruit the same way normal marines do, with alot more force and guile involved I'm sure. The only ones still around since the time of the emperor is the princes and bigger.

Chaos gave up there curve on technology when they gave up the Imperium, now they just gotta steal it. Funny I haven't seen any chaos crusaders or redeemers kicking around.

Of course they are 10,000 years old. Not all of them died in the Heresy, in fact maybe only a third did.

Wrong. They have forge worlds inside the eye of terror that constantly produce vehicles. The Imperium have their Mechanicum, Chaos has their Dark Mechanicum.

And there are plenty of aspiring champions from the great crusade, as well as regular troopers.


a LR is a joke typically unless you have a chronic allergy to lascannons, or play tyranids or necrons.

Exactly. Land Raiders are overpriced and pretty worthless compared to what else you can get.


I said CHAOS Landraider suck. Ultramarine and Grey Knight Landraiders are delicious ownsauce. Mainly because they;

- Are AV14 on all facings (and thus make most armies cry bitter tears of frustration as nothing short of melta can kill them reliably)
- Can fire two weapons while moving 6" (at different targets), and still shoot one gun while moving 12". Crusaders can fire all guns while moving 6", GK Crusaders can fire all but one gun while moving 12".
- Even while shaken (no one leaves home without extra armour), they can still fire one gun.
- Can transport Terminators and Troops safely across the board (in the case of the Crusader they also hand out free frags when you charge out of it)

Nothing else in 40k comes close, with the exception of the broken Monolith (which people just ignore anyway and go for Phase Out). Tack on smoke launchers (Ultramarines get 4+ cover, GK's reduce all damage to glancing), and it just becomes unfair.

Chaos Landraiders are AV14 on all sides. And to be honest, I find Land Raiders ridiculously easy to kill, especially with Dark Eldar. It takes a few lances before 270 or so points of Land Raider goes away.

And yes, the Land Raiders can fire many of their weapons while running around, but I'd rather have 3 lascannons than 2. Or a melta bike squadron.

And firing one gun isn't that great, unless we're talking the redeemer, which usually gets destroyed turn one or two from a few delicious lances or meltas.

And while it's trying to simultaneously fire at everything, it's forced to rush across the board, which it generally has trouble doing on my clock. the general problem with Land Raiders is that they are mediocre at shooting and transporting troops around, while being extremely expensive. A few rhinos does better than the LR, since at least two rhinos can use smoke, and then drop their squadrons off next turn. That's how my choas roll, and it always works. And Chaos Land Raiders can have extra armor and smokes I believe.

There are many things better than a Land Raider. If you play enough, you will start dancing with joy as your opponent plants one of those point sinks onto the table, thinking (now there's a squad or two of tacs I don't have to fight).

As The Outsider can probably attest to, we Dark Eldar players get very excited when we see an LR on the other side of the table.

Rioghan Murchadha
08-04-2009, 04:25
ITT chaos players use fluff to claim they need to have the most powerful gear a fluffy tank for their IW army.

The chaos LR is fine, while it fills a very similar role to that of the loyalist version, the contents of the rest of the codex dramtically alter what the LR is capable of. The chaos LR does not need to shoot anywhere near as much as the loyalist version as the chaos codex hold nearly all the best CC choices in the game (some of which come in very cheaply) and can be backed up in ways the loyalists simply cannot manage.

Is true. The only thing that bugs me about the Chaos LR is that it doesn't carry as many guys as the new loyalist ones. I'd love to use it as a transport for my 9 man terminator squad in my 1k sons list, but I'm stuck at 5

Loyalist ones not only hold more, but no longer suffer from the stupid "Models in terminator armour count as 2 for the purposes of transporting." rule.

Damocles8
08-04-2009, 06:41
Is true. The only thing that bugs me about the Chaos LR is that it doesn't carry as many guys as the new loyalist ones. I'd love to use it as a transport for my 9 man terminator squad in my 1k sons list, but I'm stuck at 5

Loyalist ones not only hold more, but no longer suffer from the stupid "Models in terminator armour count as 2 for the purposes of transporting." rule.

Yes we do....somebody didn't read the Armor part of the codex.....