PDA

View Full Version : Specialist to be killed off? Forgeworld changes?



t-tauri
15-12-2005, 16:02
Posted at TMP (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=60842), the miniatures page.
Well, I got told last night all speacialist games are being stopped there may be free rules downloads of the games as there exists already for most if not all of them. GW is now just going to concentrate on the 3 core games. Also, couldnt get specifics but something is going to be happening with Forgeworld over the next couple of years, and all I was told was if I am unhappy about the prices they charge, I will be a happier man. Now, either the guy knows I am going to win the lottery and be a millionare, or prices may become more realistic. The other comment regards FW was 'All I can say is FW has always beem a part of GW'.

Sorry I couldnt get anymore specifics, but I am probably not supposed to know this thus far anyway!

Alien
This seems to support what we've been hearing about the death of Specialist and also the rumblings about changes at Forgeworld.

What would worry me about changes at FW would be that a reduction of price (which would be welcome, obviously) would lower the variety available.

NakedFisherman
15-12-2005, 16:12
With Specialist Games being essentially removed but the free rules staying but Forge World continuing to do Epic and Battlefleet Gothic miniatures, I don't think there will be a big deal.

I guess it just means resin instead of metal models. The prices as they are now are even about the same.

Long live Forge World!

Bruen
15-12-2005, 16:43
The key thing about Forgeworld is the quality. I don't care how cheap the models are if they don't look good.

xerxeshavelock
15-12-2005, 17:26
What would worry me about changes at FW would be that a reduction of price (which would be welcome, obviously) would lower the variety available.

Maybe they are referring to more Forge World sculpts being made Plastic? Theoretically that might be achievable, at least for the more popular items.

Helicon_One
15-12-2005, 18:13
Maybe they are referring to more Forge World sculpts being made Plastic? Theoretically that might be achievable, at least for the more popular items.

*shuts eyes, crosses fingers and prays REALLY hard for plastic Elysians*

Tim

Yodhrin
15-12-2005, 18:43
To be honest, I dont think I would mind that much providing GW do two things:

1. Publish ALL Specialist Games, past and present, online for free(as long as they still have the original sets to scan in of course). That includes games such as Space Hulk and Gorka Morka.

2. Continue to cast the odd run of the current SG games range, either in metal or give FW the reponsibility to do it in resin. The SG range is an endless pool of conversion potential for the main games, and Inquisitor wouldnt be playable at all in the right scale unless the minis remain available.

As for changes to FW, I agree with the sentiment that it isnt about the cost, more the quality. However, providing FW products become available through the store mail order points for those of us who dont have credit cards, and providing that FW are still allowed to do their own thing once in a while and just turn out something insane/pointless in game terms, but just *******' cool, again I wouldnt mind much.

PSD
16-12-2005, 00:43
I still dont see the problem with Forgeworlds prices. You get what you pay for. I see anything involving Forgeworld being pulled back into the main GW fold as a bad thing.

mostholycerebus
16-12-2005, 04:23
I still dont see the problem with Forgeworlds prices. You get what you pay for.

Actually, this is completely untrue. Demand for forgeworld currently meets or outstrips their capability to produce. The clear solution is to step up production to meet demand. This in turn produces further economies of scale, so the end result is that Forgeworld could produce MORE product, at equal or superior quality, for a LOWER price. Producing more product would mean better quality because it's generally cheaper to fix a manufacturing problem, than correct it after shipping. Also, larger lots would mean they could afford to pay for better and more intricate sculpts.

However Forgeworld has said that they are not interested in producing product on a larger scale, despite demand and potentially astounding profits. They have stated that their desire to remain a small speciality company is greater than their desire to provide enough product for their fans. The result is eerily similar to the DeBeers diamond monopoly: by witholding product they artificially inflate price beyond what the product would lead to in a competative market. Which is why people will continue to gleefully buy warped bits of resin covered with huge chunks of flash, for hundreds of dollars.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
16-12-2005, 20:57
Which is why people will continue to gleefully buy warped bits of resin covered with huge chunks of flash, for hundreds of dollars.

I take it you've had a bad experience with an FW model :)

Marikano
16-12-2005, 23:10
The only price issue I have with Forgeworld is the prices on the IA books. There's no "material" reason for the immense price of what are basically just hardcover books, and it would seem to me that making the rules for their models more accessible would make the actual sales of those models skyrocket.

sulla
16-12-2005, 23:55
My biggest problem with forgeworld is this; I don't have/want a credit card + I don't live in the UK = I can't get any forgeworld stuff... I would like to see all products from the GW banner available in official GW stores. Not neccessarily stocked at all times, but fans should at least be able to order them there, pay for them there and pick them up there. This includes BL stuff which the southern hemisphere shops no longer stock either...

Bruen
17-12-2005, 00:33
How is that a problem with Forgeworld? Sounds like you need to write to your regional store manager.
I've never tried it but I think you can order FW from UK GW stores and pay at the till.

Orcdom
17-12-2005, 00:47
most stores dont want to do that, Indies esp because unless they mark it up above retail they dont get squat because they dont get a discounted price from FW.

Steve

Lord of ???
17-12-2005, 03:33
sulla

Get yourself a Visa Debit Card.

or Multiaccess Card

What ever your bank calls it.

It directly accesses a savings account and removes money from that account.

lorelorn
17-12-2005, 05:48
Specialist games was effectively killed off this time last year with the cancellation of the excellent Fanatic mag, and the cessation of all work in progress.

What we've seen over this year are the slow death throes as they have trickled out what was waiting in the wings last December.

Cypher
17-12-2005, 07:34
Maybe they are referring to more Forge World sculpts being made Plastic? Theoretically that might be achievable, at least for the more popular items.
That was my thought. They already make the stuff in the same building, and with GW expanding their plastic making technology the way they have been, it would make a lot of sense. Perhaps the plastic Baneblade will be the first plastic FW item?

PSD
17-12-2005, 10:55
Which is why people will continue to gleefully buy warped bits of resin covered with huge chunks of flash, for hundreds of dollars.

Iv bought hundreds of pounds worth of forgeworld stuff, and not had a single piece arrive in bad condition. I cant fault forgeworld. I find the only people that do are the ones who are too poor to be able to afford it.

Jesse
17-12-2005, 14:05
specialist games is not in its death throes nor will it die in the forseeable future. The BFG rules review is coming in february, the necromunda rules review is just completed, the community is stron on the forums and Andy Hall and the team are still working. There is a near daily blog on the site and fanatic online once a week posting articles or additional rules for the games. The range is being repackaged and a catalogue is being released to allow ease of purchasing. There are new releases slated for 2 slots next year.....not a dying wing of GW

Spacemunkie
17-12-2005, 20:20
Iv bought hundreds of pounds worth of forgeworld stuff, and not had a single piece arrive in bad condition. I cant fault forgeworld. I find the only people that do are the ones who are too poor to be able to afford it.

Rubbish. Bent weapons, flash, misaligned mouldings, air bubbles and horrendous gating have all blighted the stuff I've bought from FW. When I pay premium prices, I expect to get premium product, not stuff that snaps because it has a huge bubble in it. I also resent having to use a Dremel to remove stuff that is only there because of POOR PRODUCTION VALUES!

And your patronising remark isn't relevant in this case :D

Crube
17-12-2005, 20:42
IIRC, Mordheim was a Specialist game?

Well it will be making a return to GW stores next year...

Maybe more will follow, just on a more spread out release schedule

Bruen
17-12-2005, 21:10
Rubbish. Bent weapons, flash, misaligned mouldings, air bubbles and horrendous gating have all blighted the stuff I've bought from FW.

Look, we know you have a downer on FW but if you don't want to work on the model then don't buy resin. Just stick to plastic or the other easy-to-work materials. Gates, flash and air bubbles are inherent in resin castings.

Just stick to plastic.

Orcdom
17-12-2005, 23:33
yes, but its the statement he was replying to that was also not called for.

i agree some work on resin is required, but from what i have heard from FW customers, there has been many a unhappy customer. i have a fair amount of resin from armorcast, and the only piece i have that had any airbubbles, was a terrain piece of a scrap pile that was full of them, but it was also a extra "throw in" for free extra piece.

i have had a few of the small pieces from FW, and compared to armorcast, the pieces have either been warped, huge tags and flash all over it.

and using armorcast as a comparison, since its the only other resin manufacturer that i own, the FW is crap.

FW's resin is worse to work with
covered in mould release (armorcast cleans thiers)
too much flash ect. (armorcast sands the bases square and cleans up thier molds all except for the very minor stuff.)

with armorcasts products at a significately lower price and quality just as good if not better (being nice here). FW i think has room to improve.

maybe if FW stepped it up a bit then there would be less bitching.

and dont give me thier customer service is great either, that is even moreso expected. if something is missing, i "expect" it fixed, it shouldnt have been missing or warped in the first place.

FW to me is getting by with as crappy packaging/mail department as GW has itself.

both apparently screw up quite a bit.

GW is notorious for missing pieces, and i have heard the same from other threads about FW with either missing or screwed up parts. i think the "screwed up parts" is where FW 's idea is, maybe the customer will fix it and not say anything and we wont have to count that pour as a waste.

Steve

Spacemunkie
18-12-2005, 01:14
So the poor people here should stick to easy to work materials now?! You lot make me laugh sometimes...

It's got nothing to do with ease of use and everything to do with quality and value for money.

Gating that looks as though it has been cut with a JCB scoop and air bubbles ARE NOT usual on all resin kits. If the stuff is prepped and cast properly, neither are necessary. I've bought plenty of garage kits that have been absolutely immaculate.

I don't have an absolute downer on FW - the models they produce are usually far superior in design to the usual tat GW knocks out, but the quality of the castings and the resin they use could be so much better for the price you pay.

It makes me laugh that you even think that sort of 'quality' is standard!

NakedFisherman
18-12-2005, 05:57
I've had no problems with my Forge World stuff.

Before going on a tirade about Forge World, perhaps you should see some for yourself instead of hear it through the grapevine.

Bruen
18-12-2005, 10:02
It makes me laugh that you even think that sort of 'quality' is standard!

I've got about 2000 worth of FW stuff and I've had the following problems:

I once had a missing part, which FW rectified by sending me a whole new model.
A two cases of warpage that I could fix with hot water.
All the models have more flash and bigger vents than plastics and metals but FW warn you about that and its easy to fix with a Dremel.

Quality seems fine to me.

t-tauri
18-12-2005, 11:34
from what i have heard from FW customers,

i have had a few of the small pieces from FW

i have heard the same from other threads about FW with either missing or screwed up parts

You seem to be operating on hearsay where the most vocal complainers who can't phone or email FW for a replacement whinge about how poor the part was.

Armorcast are cheaper than FW because they have less parts with larger and less detailed casts-the Armorcast Warhound has seven parts (IIRC can't be bothered to go upstairs and check). How many has the FW warhound got and how much better is the detail?

I've never had a problem with bubbles and the few problems I've had with warped or missing parts have been quickly resolved.

Gating that looks as though it has been cut with a JCB scoop and air bubbles ARE NOT usual on all resin kits. If the stuff is prepped and cast properly, neither are necessary. I've bought plenty of garage kits that have been absolutely immaculate.

In my experience of military modelling/wargaming resins FW stuff is near the top of the range for quality. The garage kits of figures I've seen have the same advantages to cast that the Armorcast stuff does- a few relatively smooth large parts.

Yodhrin
18-12-2005, 11:49
Dont bother arguing with Spacemunkie tauri, every post he makes bashes GW in some way or another, and he never listens to other people. He has his opinions, and regardless of how accurate they are, he WILL stick to them, so it's better people just ignore his rantings if you dont agree, it avoids flamewars.

EDIT: I should say that I currently have no experiance with FW products, so I honestly cant say how accurate Spacemunkie or anyone else is. I will be buying some parts from them on Tuesday though, so we'll see how it goes.

Spacemunkie
18-12-2005, 13:21
Just stating what I have experienced from the pieces I have bought - two lots direct from FW and a whole load of stuff at GD.

A hormagaunt bust I bought had a really bad mould line on it. Another of the figs I bought had a (relatively) huge air bubble in the sword which caused it to shatter. Another bust I bought had airbubbles in all of the facial extremities - not good. And the gating on a bunch of bases I bought was just ridiculous considering the size of the components.

As for your other comments, just because I don't adhere to the strict code of sycophancy that goes on around here doesn't mean I can't express my views and experiences on any given subject:D

Malakai
22-12-2005, 03:25
I'd just like to get back to the topic. I for one have been hoping for some time now that FW will take over GW's Specialist Games comittment since Fanatic went under. Thier resin epic models are superior in every single way to the SG counterparts. And it also looks as if FW can bind books, which is something Specialist Games can't do anymore.

I think it's a great plan. Long live FW.

Malakai

Skaven Lord Vinshqueek
22-12-2005, 08:39
A response of ForgeWorld on the matter...
Hi

As far as I'm aware, Specialist Games is not going anywhere, which is a good thing as some of my favourite games are Necromunda and Mordheim.

With regards to Forge World, yes, we have always and will always be part of Games Workshop. We are a sub-company of Games Workshop Ltd, the same as Games Workshop UK, Games Workshop USA, Games Workshop France etc are all sub-companies of the parent company. The only real change to Forge World in the foreseeable future is that we are bringing more of the casting "in-house" which means that we'll be able to have more control over quality control. It won't make any difference to prices as our costs are staying the same we're just changing who they get paid to.

The only thing I can think of that this might refer to is GW making some of the Forge World models in plastic. One of the reasons Forge World exists is to test and create new IP in models and designs. It's always an option for these to be incorporated into the main range in the future, however it's rare. It has happened in the past a couple of times, for example the Eldar Wave Serpent uses many Forge World parts cast in plastic. It has also happened in the present, the new Tau range has plastic versions of a couple of Forge World kits, as has already been shown. While there are no others currently planned to be made into plastic, I've no doubt that others will be adopted in the future.

Hope this answers your question.

Regards
Dean Winson
Forge World

And another from the bloke that worked on the bloodbowl LRB...
Nope ... talked with Andy and JJ and a lot of the stuff lately is just re-org stuff for the smaller team. Nothing has changed from the GenCon speech in August really (other than the release dates JJ gave being way off).

SG is not winding down ... its been moved to bottom shelf in GW ... but there is no intention to kill it off.

As I said ... my last email from JJ said that the GW higher up where slowly green lighting the idea of a new 20th anniversary boxed set in 2007. Also the removal of figs post was all smoke and mirrors because Andy was a bonehead and posted the wrong info. So the figs are still there .. .they still plan to keep making them. And Andy and JJ are the 2 man department to organize the show.

But for each game range they have an unpaid guy like me ... giving them hundreds if not thousands of hours helping put together new supplements and revised rules. So don't think its just the 2 guys like Darkson said ... its just that GW is only paying 2 ... JJ has quite smartly done a very un-GW thing by getting a fairly large SG department working for him ... just they are off payroll as GW recongnizes it.

My "payment" for what will be about 2000 hours of work on the new rulebook came in the form of 5 Heavy Metal studio painted BB figs used over the last 3 years in White Dwarf ads for Blood Bowl (Thrud, Ogre Cheerleader, Lizardman Cheerleader, and a couple others) ... these were a gift from JJ when he visited for GenCon. While at GenCon JJ asked me if there was anything I would like for what will amount to a man-year (definited as 2000 hours in the USA) of time. I asked if I could have the Blood Bowl Helmet made by Raven Armoury (of which only 2 were made) shown in White Dwarf #120 and Blood Bowl Magazine #1. The Helmet was the 1st prize for the first every Blood Bowl Championship run by GW in 1989. Gareth Jones won one of them and GW kept the other. JJ must trust me to finish PBBL ... because it already is on display in my collection downstairs.

That's my long way of saying ... yeah its 2 guys on the payroll ... but JJ has a small unpaid legion working for him offbook. Don't count out the power of that in the long run.

Galak
So basically, the statement in the first post is likely to be (very) untrue.

Greetz

Rykion
22-12-2005, 15:16
Armorcast are cheaper than FW because they have less parts with larger and less detailed casts-the Armorcast Warhound has seven parts (IIRC can't be bothered to go upstairs and check). How many has the FW warhound got and how much better is the detail?
Not a very fair comparison as the Armorcast Warhound is quite old and not representative of current Armorcast products, not to mention the major price difference. It would be like saying how great Confrontation is by comparing a new Confrontation mini to some 10 year old GW miniature.

That said, Armorcast still has fewer parts and slightly less detail per part, but about 10x the quality control of FW from my experience.

Ki-Adi-Monkey
22-12-2005, 18:01
That said, Armorcast still has fewer parts and slightly less detail per part, but about 10x the quality control of FW from my experience.

Not for much longer. All the forgeworld casting will soon be done in house at GWHQ nottingham, rather than being done at MDC. The quality control should improve greatly as a result.

Rob

Orcdom
23-12-2005, 03:39
we can hope
Steve