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self biased
05-04-2009, 14:34
now that i've had a few days to reflect on this, and frankly calm down a bit, i have to wonder what was going through the author's mind at the time of writing Codex: Space Marines. i will try and refrain from whining because i was largely wiped out by the end of my turn two, but the very mechanics chosen to represent shrike perplex me.

if the player using shrike DOES NOT pull dawn of war as a setup zone AND goes first, he's largely guaranteed a first turn charge. there's still every possibility that the dice disagree with him, but infiltrate requires 18" minimum distance between an infiltrating unit and an opposing unit when deploying. even accounting for difficult terrain, a normal move of 12" for jump packs, plus d6 for fleet, plus 2d6 take the highest, it's not remotely difficult to get that first turn charge.

should such a thing really be possible? first turn charges are always possible under the right circumstances for the player who takes the second turn, but should the starting player be able to get them with such ease?

The_Outsider
05-04-2009, 15:25
With such ease? No, not really.

However get a first turn charge (even if you go first) isn't as rare as most people think - though DE are the kings at it, it does require a fistfull of luck.

mattschuur
05-04-2009, 15:27
Well, there are other armies that can do it as well, but they are in the minority. Ork Stormboyz can do it, of course the opposing player would have to move first. Dark Eldar Wyches can easily get a first turn charge if they get 12" assault. 12" move of raider, get out 2", Fleet D6" and then assault 12". Assault range of 26+D6". Marine scouts could as well. Hormagaunts.

Shrike is a pain but your opponent, if he's running with 10 assault marines, has dropped at least 1/4 of his 1,500 point army on that unit. If you play marines, stay in rhino's or deploy tanks forward and then infantry behind them. Shrike is just a normal Marine captain when shot at, so don't engage him and when he can't charge a soft unit or wipes it out then dakka him.

matt schuur

Solar_Eclipse
05-04-2009, 15:43
Let them charge? Kill the ablative units in front, then give them a facefull of flamer.

Mission accomplished.

SPYDER68
05-04-2009, 18:10
Yea first turn charge can be harsh from shrike..

You just haft to know its coming, place your units to play Sac a squad.. then it leaves that squad in the open for mass support fire when they are whiped.


Shrike's squad = expensive.

Mojaco
05-04-2009, 18:24
Yep, sacrifice a unit, like an empty transport or something. Or put a dreadnought up front, that usually scares people off too. It should be predicable where he sets up usually. If not, you can just pull back really far so he'll come in unsupported. If all else fails, just put everything in tactical reserve.

Infiltrate can be a bitch though.

Takitron
05-04-2009, 18:55
Remember he could do this last edition too, but now he cant bounce from squad to squad (man, those were the days....)

Jagger
05-04-2009, 23:19
He's only one marine, if he takes a command squad he can only move 6" his jump pack is redundant until they're wiped out.
His infiltrate rule only applies to his squad not a unit he's joined.

DinoDoc
05-04-2009, 23:33
He's only one marine, if he takes a command squad he can only move 6" his jump pack is redundant until they're wiped out.
His infiltrate rule only applies to his squad not a unit he's joined.It's perfectly legal for him to nominate a unit he's joining and have them infiltrate together. I don't know where you got the idea it wasn't.

SimonL
05-04-2009, 23:43
It says "his squad", not command squad. Therefore he should bestow it on unit's he's joined.

And his squad was Shrike's Wing, which you can't take anymore, but can make out of Vanguard Vets (although 60 points each instead of 51, dual Lightning Claws and jump packs.)

Warforger
06-04-2009, 00:46
With no infiltrate or scouts.

Vanguard +Fleet are actually pretty effective for trying to reaching another unit, after your done killin gone unit, you then move 12" +d6 then charge, so at most you have a 24" charge range!

self biased
06-04-2009, 02:20
Let them charge? Kill the ablative units in front, then give them a facefull of flamer.

Mission accomplished.

not as easy as one might think. we played on table quarters, and he set up eighteen inches from my deployment zone, on my three foot 'half; of the table. there really wasn't anywhere i could go with the way i was set up, my units were clamoring over each other to try to get away. he also only wiped out units on my turn, freeing him up to lather, rinse and repeat. the end of my turn two saw two of my four remaining units run off the table while a land raider that contained a squad of fleet assault terminators and a terminator chaplain closed in on the last of my army.

the only way i really stood much, if any chance, was to seize the intiative and go first to try to pelt him off the table.

i realize that shrike crumples under horde armies, and tends to do well against MEQs (i was playing true dark angels), but the game was torturous to play.

Giganthrax
06-04-2009, 02:25
You can always just put the units that are vulnerable to shrike into reserve, or hide them in a transport.

avatarofportent
06-04-2009, 02:35
yeah shrike is pretty crazy to play against, My friend recently discovered him. But hes yet to use him effectively, i don't think hes realized he can infiltrate him yet.

He assaulted a bunker w/assault squad i had some CSM's in and didn't do anything the following turn i possessed the champion inside and unleashed some greater demon goodness on him while disembarking the bunker crew and they chewed the squad up and shrike ran.

when shrike rallied he smacked into a 12 man raptor squad with 3 terminators and chewed them all up. i love fleeting terminators. way to go GW

A1TEC
06-04-2009, 04:55
If you are using marines then place a squad of 10 scout snipers and place other scouts as infiltrators and Shrike will attack them whilst your army is getting position for a counter attack.

After all thats what basic scouts are for

Asharoth
06-04-2009, 05:08
Shrike is nice when you get first turn, but if you don't roll well, it kinda sucks for shrike. I have great games with Shrike when I get to go first, but if I don't, I have a bad time of it either outflanking or setting him up with the rest of the army. Like many characters, he's got his good and bad.

self biased
06-04-2009, 19:40
what's with all this 'rolling well?' one only has to roll greater than a six between a 2d6 take the highest, and a fleet roll? you can roll average. hell, if you've got a squad out in the open you're guaranteed a first turn charge.

Shangrila
06-04-2009, 19:52
Yes shrike can get a first turn charge, and yeah its easy to do it.(i do it Just about every game.) Its not really Smart since you cant consolidate into another CC.

However, you should hope Shrikes unit doesnt combat squad and have him detach, then you have 3 possible first round charges to deal with.(or he takes a biker command squad with relic blades...)

Its easy to counter Shrike. Infact my Shrike dies in every game.(almost)

Deetwo
06-04-2009, 20:28
Its easy to counter Shrike. Infact my Shrike dies in every game.(almost)

Other than him being expensive, it's not really a huge deal.. Considering Shrike himself is just a points cost to give your army fleet and infiltrate to a unit.
If there is no infiltrating unit, it's even easier to avoid that first turn charge.

Ofcourse I have some personal bias here, since I play demons and rarely have anything on the table on the enemys first turn :)


However, you should hope Shrikes unit doesnt combat squad and have him detach, then you have 3 possible first round charges to deal with.(or he takes a biker command squad with relic blades...)

You mean the unit would split after infiltrating? (or during?) Is that legal?.. though detaching Shrike from that unit is, but then again.. he's just a glorified assault marine.

ehlijen
06-04-2009, 21:29
If a unit combat squads, it becomes two units, which means shrike can only join one half of it and therefore only that one half gets to infiltrate; the other half has to use a setup method normally available to it.

As for detaching shrike, there aren't that many units that are:
a) weak enough for him to beat up in his own
b) weak enough not to threaten his well being with a lucky roll or two
c) and still big enough to justify throwing something as expensive as shrike at them.

Thousandth Son
07-04-2009, 01:20
Shrikes first turn charge is pretty good. I have used it frequently to kill Eldar Fire Prisms, provided that I go first so they haven't moved, or to just tie up an enemy foot squad for a turn.

In my army however, Shrikes real purpose is to provide my TH+SS Terminators the ability to fleet when they unload from their Land Raiders. Effectively giving my 3 Units the ability to charge 26 inches or something. Quite terrifying, or so my opponents tell me.

A1TEC
07-04-2009, 01:42
Try and go first, then you can set up infiltrators so that shrike can only assualt them on the fist turn.

Add a hole bunch of instand kill weapons.

When he comes out of assualt, fire everything you have got:skull:

self biased
07-04-2009, 02:07
A1TEC: that assumes that he wipes the squad he charges, which can't be counted on. the game would have been totally different if i could have shot him and his squad even once.

Skyrir
07-04-2009, 03:23
Give him some bait. For example, put a crappy (Maybe a couple chaos spawn?) unit forward whilst pulling all particularly vulnerable units back to the table edge. Then, hit him with all your dakka. Or just deepstrike abbadon and some terminator champions and make him your b!tch in cc.

A1TEC
07-04-2009, 04:15
that assumes that he wipes the squad he charges, which can't be counted on.

I mean using a cheap squad which will most likely be charged for their annoyance. Such as Space Marine Scout Snipers. Once your versed snipers, you'll want to take them out in the first turn.:skull:

A1TEC
07-04-2009, 04:19
Or just deepstrike abbadon and some terminator champions and make him your b!tch in cc.


This would not work considering deep strike might not happen until turn 5.
You would be better off placing a termi squad with Abbadon in the front lines.
Your opponent will think that Shrike was a wate of points.

Warforger
07-04-2009, 05:17
Give him some bait. For example, put a crappy (Maybe a couple chaos spawn?) unit forward whilst pulling all particularly vulnerable units back to the table edge. Then, hit him with all your dakka. Or just deepstrike abbadon and some terminator champions and make him your b!tch in cc.

Ha ha, I laugh at you thinking you can charge a unit with Jump packs on foot, unless there Slaaneshi sorcerers there..... Well then there aren't really any counters to that except shoot them up.

Sure your not the best in combat, but you sure as hell can use superior mobility to get away from doomed combats.

shin'keiro
07-04-2009, 09:46
if the player using shrike DOES NOT pull dawn of war as a setup zone AND [i]goes first, he's largely guaranteed a first turn charge. there's still every possibility that the dice disagree with him, but infiltrate requires 18" minimum distance between an infiltrating unit and an opposing unit when deploying. even accounting for difficult terrain, a normal move of 12" for jump packs, plus d6 for fleet, plus 2d6 take the highest, it's not remotely difficult to get that first turn charge.

fleet doesnt give d6" anymore - do u mean RUN?

what is the 2d6 take the highest for?

self biased
07-04-2009, 17:50
my most heartfelt apologies, i have technically spoken in error: a fleet unit is allowed to assault after it runs. it's largely semantics at any rate, and i'm sure most everyone else who read the statement knew what i was talking about.

the 2d6 take the highest is for a potential difficult terrain test, to try to envision a "worst case scenario."