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Ultimo ninja
06-04-2009, 03:55
OK...I have been reading the woc forum on librarium online (kind of like a little brother to warseer, great site too).

There was ALLOT of complaining that the WOC book is underpowered compared to every other 7 ed book.

I believe the WOC 7 edition book was created by a person (PHIL KELLY) who truly didnt Understand that he needed to buff the army in order to replace what it was loosing from the daemons and beasts largely leaving the list.

WOC is a stripped down list, not too many bells and whistles....But I LOVE WOC!

Our fluff is great...not too complicated, were just the bad guys from up north who worship evil gods and try to conquer the world in their name.

The models for the range (and ones I use from other sources besides GW like gamezone ultraforge and AOW) are great too!

Heres an army I can use without automatically being called cheese (daemons)
doesnt look wimpy (preppy little elves come to mind...lol) and forces you to think very hard for it to win against several tougher lists.

Basically what I'm saying is, we in the WOC community need to work overtime to make this list as competitive as possible, more so than any other 7ed army so far released. Is it possible we could create a mini forum for our tactica instead of one massive single thread? It would certainly help.

sulla
06-04-2009, 04:22
There was ALLOT of complaining that the WOC book is underpowered compared to every other 7 ed book.

I believe the WOC 7 edition book was created by a person (PHIL KELLY) who truly didnt Understand that he needed to buff the army in order to replace what it was loosing from the daemons and beasts largely leaving the list.


...Or maybe WoC players didn'y understand their army was powerful enough without the furies?

Seriously, excellent fast cav, khorne chariots for 6 s5 attacks + 4 s4 attacks +d6+1 impact hits, screened by a 30pt dog unit... Great heavy cav, monsters of all shapes and sizes, great magic users, great special characters...

Yes, it's sad the infantry is still nowhere near as good as the fast stuff, and chaos characters are not the tanks they were in the last edition but it's a pretty competitive list as you will find out, the more you use it.

Good luck with your thread. There's obviously a lot of players out there who haven't scratched the surface of the WoC list's potential.

lachlanwizard
06-04-2009, 05:51
What? The complaint was that the list was boring and completely changed direction from last edition, not that it is underpowered.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
06-04-2009, 06:31
What? The complaint was that the list was boring and completely changed direction from last edition, not that it is underpowered.

Yep. Went from a "horde" of chaos stuff to an army of evil men with a lot of beasts stuff thrown in for no reason. Can't wait to see what they stick in the beastmen book? Maybe chaos warriors with fur?

Anyways, the book has power builds, but they don't stand up to the other power armies out there IMO. All magic is strong and all that, but what if I don't want to go all magic? Well I guess I'll just lose then. Fun!

Also, Eye of the Gods is very vague and not too helpful for the army. At least it's better than orc animosity.

PaddyF
06-04-2009, 06:49
Eye of the Gods is great that one time the unit of Chosen get a double 6 and have the regen nurgle spell cast on them every turn. Mmmm bunker.

Anyway there are some really good lists for WoC the difference with DoC being that you can put the DoC list on a dart board and throw darts at it with your back facing, blind folded and still get something that can fight.

snottlebocket
06-04-2009, 06:53
An armybook is not underpowered or bad because it can't stand up to screwups like demons and the other rediculously overpowered lists.

Frankly if it could stand up to those it would just mean that there is yet another screwed up book that rips the gamebalance apart even further.

SiNNiX
06-04-2009, 07:15
Daemons are not overpowered!!! They're simply misunderstood... :(

As far as WOC is concerned, some things in the army are ridiculously overpowered, most things are ridiculously worthless. The book was written in an hour because Phil Kelly was given several months of paid-vacation by GW to write the WOC book and he spent it getting waisted in Venice and once he finally realized that his vacation was about to end and GW expected him to return with the book, he only had a few hours left. And thus the horribly-crafted Warriors of Chaos army was born!

Kerill
06-04-2009, 07:20
The argument on warseer has never been that WOC are underpowered, just that it is dull, unimaginative and infinitely more restrictive in terms of playstyle and list than before.

Then you get the usually "tactics masters" who popout and say it isn't underpowered at all and they've had X massacres so far whilst the original posters are left wondering whether the person in question had read the thread at all or just leaped at the chance to say how great they are at warhammer.

@OP, there is a WOC forum, here's the link:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/cotec/index.php?act=idx

Seville
06-04-2009, 07:46
I usually abstain from this kind of pointless discussion, but here goes anyway...

And I want to preface this by saying that I am *not* directing this at any one in particular. Please don't take anything I say here personally (necessarily).

I am not sure what it is about Chaos players in both 40k and Fantasy that makes them such unimaginative whiners. How much wailing and gnashing of teeth was there after the 40k codex was released? OMG OUR CODEX IS TEH DULL AND BORING NOW. And now it's almost the same with the new Warriors of Chaos.

It's Warseer, so people will whine and complain no matter what, but it's especially bad with Chaos.

The books are totally fine for people who aren't afraid to use their imaginations, delve into a little "counts-as", and expand their concept of FLUFF and CANON. Yeah, guys. Sorry. It's changing. What was true yesterday now isn't. The gods can mix. So what? What was so utterly fantastic about the rivalries before anyway? Nothing.

And who says you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T USE YOUR OLD FAVORITES? Do you all really have such inflexible, rude opponents who will refuse to allow you to use Beastmen alongside your Marauders? Or do you all play strictly in tournaments?

But even without doing that, both the 40k and Fantasy versions of Chaos offer up TONS of options for creative players as standalone products.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but I posit that those who complain most bitterly about the new Chaos being dull and unimaginative are guilty of being that very thing themselves. Lighten up, loosen up, and enjoy the game.

Or don't. It won't affect my enjoyment of the army.

Jericho
06-04-2009, 07:59
I've been around the games for a long time, have worked at the store, have played in numerous tournaments, co-founded gaming clubs, you name it. I've been around, I have a shelf full of awards, I've owned tons of armies and played tons of games. I don't claim to be the best or anything (although my Wood Elves have a very good record and my Dogs of War are doing better than they have any right doing) but I can say this about the Chaos books:

40k. WTF were they thinking, it's back to the 3rd edition Chaos army book where 95% of the list is just Space Marines with spikes on them. Hell that's giving them too much credit, since the new SM book has more options and cool crap than ever before. The cult lists are okay, they lost their fluff and Cult Termis but they are still doable. But half the other armies are gone. Alpha Legion? Word Bearers? Iron Warriors? Is there anything whatsoever to make these guys interesting anymore?

I think taking away the Demonic Gifts system was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction as well, sure the old one was too open-ended and caused some problems but Chaos was always about the mutated/gifted Champions and it's sad to see that character leave from the army.

Don't even get me started about the Demons. I'm not asking for them to be demigods for 15 points, but at least let them take a bloody mark.

Warriors of Chaos. Again not so much underpowered (I'm still around .500 with them, including my awkward early games where I didn't have a clue how to use them properly) as they are boring after a while. Without Demons, Beasts, Furies or any other infantry types there's not a helluva lot you can do with the army unless you're a master sculptor.

Most of the non-human models are also completely terrible. The Chaos Ogres, Dragon Ogres, Chaos Trolls... :rolleyes:

I know it sounds like I'm being harsh on the army book, but there are certainly things that I like about it. It has some very random/fickle elements which can be devastating or completely useless. Perfect for Chaos. It (finally) allows you the flexibility to take a mixed army, even if it does open the door for some limited abuse of the rules (most of the FAQ stuff fixed it by radically re-writing the Mark of Nurgle). Seriously, Undivided = boring as hell but being able to take a bunch of differently marked units is great. I've always wanted a Tzeentch/Slaanesh army, and even though I changed my theme to fit the Warhammer Online imagery and fluff I was still able to keep the combination.

I must say though, not being able to take any Demons or Beasts stuff at all is annoying. I just wanted one block of Horrors... they are so damn gorgeous and their rules were very well suited to their fluff. The old Indigo Fire (I think...) was a super-cool spell and while not the most powerful, it was surely one of my favorite spells in the whole game for sheer coolness.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
06-04-2009, 08:07
I usually abstain from this kind of pointless discussion, but here goes anyway...

And I want to preface this by saying that I am *not* directing this at any one in particular. Please don't take anything I say here personally (necessarily).

I am not sure what it is about Chaos players in both 40k and Fantasy that makes them such unimaginative whiners. How much wailing and gnashing of teeth was there after the 40k codex was released? OMG OUR CODEX IS TEH DULL AND BORING NOW. And now it's almost the same with the new Warriors of Chaos.

It's Warseer, so people will whine and complain no matter what, but it's especially bad with Chaos.

The books are totally fine for people who aren't afraid to use their imaginations, delve into a little "counts-as", and expand their concept of FLUFF and CANON. Yeah, guys. Sorry. It's changing. What was true yesterday now isn't. The gods can mix. So what? What was so utterly fantastic about the rivalries before anyway? Nothing.

And who says you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T USE YOUR OLD FAVORITES? Do you all really have such inflexible, rude opponents who will refuse to allow you to use Beastmen alongside your Marauders? Or do you all play strictly in tournaments?

But even without doing that, both the 40k and Fantasy versions of Chaos offer up TONS of options for creative players as standalone products.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but I posit that those who complain most bitterly about the new Chaos being dull and unimaginative are guilty of being that very thing themselves. Lighten up, loosen up, and enjoy the game.

Or don't. It won't affect my enjoyment of the army.

Any book can be used imaginatively to create cool armies. That's not the point. The point is the new books are essentially less fun than the old ones. There's less variety, less cool gubbins, which a lot of people really liked about chaos in the first place.

Sure, unofficially, you can still use demons and beastmen with your WoC army. But if I'm doing that why even pay for the book in the first place? I paid $50 for the rule book because lots of people played it and it is supposed to be good, right? Telling people they can still use their demons with mortals is akin to saying "You can do that ... just use a different rules set! One that almost no one else uses!". That's fine with friends. Other players will expect you to use the book as written. That means you can't use all your "old favorites" most of the time.

EvC
06-04-2009, 11:34
I enjoy the army a lot, I've tried forced dedicated to all the different gods, the only one that bored me was Tzeentch, because "Gateway ftw" is not an interesting playstyle. Mixing is fine, you don't have to do it, but there's always reasons why you might have those with differing religious tastes fighting alongside each other, e.g. in my Khorne army, the Knights of the Brass Keep, the background is that Archaon left his Khornate Warriors behind at the Keep rather than have them retreat with him into the wastes (as they would never have agreed to that), expecting them to die a glorious death. Instead they won many victories and the Keep went on to act as a rallying ground for other warbands in the area, one of which was a small Slaanesh infantry group lead by a Sorcerer.

Of course the book has failings, in that many of the Marks are no brainer standard upgrades (like the aforementioned Mark of Slaanesh for infantry- it would be suicide to add Khorne to a good-sized block of foot troops), and some magic items that sound suited to one god are suited to others, or don't work at all on the "correct" God (E.g. Banner of Rage with Khorne, Necrotic Phylactery making Nurgle characters immune to the Nurgle magic that grants regeneration). But boring? Every time I fire a Hellcannon I have no idea what will happen. My Chaos Lord has killed three Stegadons in one game. And, yes, my Knights have carved up 40 Zombies in one turn. The army is full of good old-fashioned tactics that rely on movement and getting the right combats going on, rather than simple "I win" magic items and spells (Gateway excepted, and why I don't like it).

So the army lost access to Beasts and Daemons... while I accept that the loss of Furies is annoying, if Beasts were an integral part of the Warriors army in previous editions, that highlighted that something was wrong. Again I would have preferred the choice and an element of mixing still, but the army works well enough for me without them. Similarly decent magic defence without sorcerers would have been quite handy, and was a missed opportunity that some other recent books did so well, but the army can just about survive without magic.

ashc
06-04-2009, 13:05
Although there is a danger of this thread becoming a whine, i think this *could* lead to some interesting discussion. As someone who is considering building a WOC army, i'm interested in knowing what people think towards the issues of whether the book is 'powerful' enough, or 'boring' with too few tactical options presented and a good number of no-brainers or don't-touch-with-a-ten-foot-barge-pole options in the army book. I'm greatly concerned by the lack of skirmishers and flyers, seems the only option for a fast warmachine hunter for instance is an exalted of slaanesh or tzeentch on appropriate mount, which is a shame. I also have great concerns over people's views on chaos infantry, as all you seem to hear is that the cavalry options are mainly what's worth taking. I think EVC brings up a good point about magical defence in the list; i do think woefully lacking without stocking up on sorcerors.

So yes, I would appreciate some further discussion, give me some positives or lay my fears above to rest! :)

Ultimo ninja
06-04-2009, 13:22
This thread better not become a whine fest....that is the OPPOSITE of what I intend.

Here are some of my ideas to make WOC more effective in combat:

For Shooting:

add leadbelchers....not great but hey, they arent as unpredictable as a hellcannon, and can do some real damage.

Marauder cav with javelins are cheap.


I dont like special chars so wulfrik is out..... We have no official scouting..... A suicidal exalted on disc with flail, hield, and golden eye could be used to draw fire and potentially take out warmachines with the help of marauder cav. Not as cost effective as furies, but we dont got a choice on that.

For skirmishing, spawns are ok, if a little unpredictable.... I plan on becoming as good as I can be at maneuvering my suicide marauder cav around to harrass people with throwing axes.

As for magic, I intend to use call to glory, and and pandemonium ALLOT. Gateway is just too unreliable.
If you have 2 scroll caddies, amrk em tzeentch, get off call to glory, and you get a free exalted...nice way to make up for the points f a caddy you probably didnt want to have to take.

ashc
06-04-2009, 13:36
I agree that marauder horsemen are probably crucial to a good all-comers chaos list to be able to fulfill the roles of baiting, hunting small units, warmachines, and even supporting with a little shooting in the form of javelins or axes.

Not so keen on the Leadbelchers idea, adding DOW you may as well just add cannons too :P but i could see some chance for funky conversions and i don't hate ogres either, so i will let that pass.

I'm pretty disappointed on the magic front; people go nurgle or tzeentch almost all the time; is there no love for undivided (unmarked) sorcerors these days?

Ash

Witchblade
06-04-2009, 15:12
Cavalry heavy and magic heavy is the only competitive list. There are a lot of other, friendly builds possible though.

Example builds:
Valkia + chosen deathstar + lots of trolls + Throgg + lots of warhounds + supporting warshrines. EotG rerolling fun.

Doom totem + 2 hellcannons + infantry blocks + magic heavy (including slaanesh. Hellshriek + -1 ld gift) + possibly Galrauch.

Marauder horde. Take Wulfrik + 23 Marauders + 3 24 marauder infantry blocks + 2 units of horsemen + 2 giants.

Voodoo Boyz
06-04-2009, 15:35
I'm going to have to point out that "WOC are ok...we just need to think and work hard!" sounds a whole lot like the same old "Just use tactics!" mantra. It's still as silly then as it ever was as some kind of a "response" to the fact that an Army Book or Codex is underpowered or dull.

The army sucks, and has 1-2 really good builds (ie. Gateway, or as many knights as you can fit + more mounted stuff). The problem is that the builds that work are boring to play, and/or rely completely on dice (Gateway lists).

EvC
06-04-2009, 15:45
Heh, am I really the only Warriors player having success with a Lord on Juggernaut leading a unit of Knights and a balanced army? :D As ever, Gateway and Knight reliance are the EASIEST armies to use, but they're pretty much equally as effective in the hands of a hardened vet as someone who has never played the army before. With more infantry and an army you need to work hard to get where you want, it can still be very competitive. But not point-and-click, which does put a lot of people off.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 16:18
I still think MSU warriors could do extremely well. Not willing to start another army to put this to the test, but I hope that eventually someone gives it a try and posts a battle report.

Any takers?

Voodoo Boyz
06-04-2009, 16:26
Heh, am I really the only Warriors player having success with a Lord on Juggernaut leading a unit of Knights and a balanced army? :D As ever, Gateway and Knight reliance are the EASIEST armies to use, but they're pretty much equally as effective in the hands of a hardened vet as someone who has never played the army before. With more infantry and an army you need to work hard to get where you want, it can still be very competitive. But not point-and-click, which does put a lot of people off.

If you're fielding Warriors, they'll never see combat unless I'm flanking them.

I've played against WoC armies that try to run infantry units, using "normal" Dark Elf lists (ie. not 4 Terror causers). Their big blocks never see combat unless I want them to.

And units with Frenzy? Position the redirectors per normal - shoot the dogs that are screening, lead the Frenzied guys around by the nose.

Seville
06-04-2009, 17:06
Voodoo Boyz - have you ever actually used WoC or played against anyone who can use them well? Or are you just repeating what everyone says on teh intarwebz?

I just had a squad of Warriors cut like a buzzsaw across the table against my buddy's Dark Elves yesterday. Oh, but wait. I am sure you would have just avoided them. Right.

I am not saying Warriors are one of the more competitive options in the book. I mainly just use them for fun. But this oft-repeated assertion that everyone can just avoid them NO MATTAR WAHT BECAUSE TEHY ARE M4 is just bunk. Mine see combat every single game. And they have yet to be destroyed or even break from combat!

And "lead the frenzied guys about by the nose". More intarwebz wisdom that has yet to work against me.

I guess I am just one of these "tactics masters" that Kerril was talking about, but I think I've only lost once with WoC. And, yes, I do play against very experienced players who use powerful armies. I only wish I could get others from my LGS to post here, because they would testify that they do NOT think WoC is weak.

It's to the point where I am thinking about watering down my lists. Seriously.

Again, I am not trying to single you out Voodoo Boyz, and I mean no disrespect. I am merely quoting you to present my case.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream and EvC - good posts, and I understand your points.

DV8
06-04-2009, 17:28
I'm seeing two arguments crop up in this thread here:

1. Warriors of Chaos are underpowered/overpowered.
2. Warriors of Chaos are dull/boring/unimaginative/blah.

I don't have much to say on the first. I've only played a few games against the new book and while there were certainly some powerful combinations/spells, it isn't necessarily over-the-top. Nor is it really a weak list either, simply that it requires some perseverance/persistence, and a little change in mentality (and I refer here to people who just build the power-lists they find on the "intarwebz" just because they want to walk over everybody they play, without any real grasp of tactics or why the list works). The list certainly has some nice units and played smart, would make a very competitive (I think) army.

On the second I pretty much am in agreement with the argument that yes, the Chaos books lost a lot of character (not just Fantasy, but 40k as well). In GW's ever-consistent style of over-nerfing, they've removed a lot of the fun aspects that used to exist in the older army books. It doesn't stop you from writing your own fluff/background, or theming your armies, but it certainly does hamper in some way the variety in which you can build your armies and play them.


DV8

EvC
06-04-2009, 18:11
If you're fielding Warriors, they'll never see combat unless I'm flanking them.

Ironically, I'll go one further- you might even get the rear charge on them! And then you still have a great chance of bouncing off of a decently prepared Warrior unit, as has happened to Dragon Princes, and a Dragon Mage with Prince on Eagle as support in recent (separate) games. The way to use Warriors is as the back-up, for when your Knights do finally run out of steam and need saving for a turn. Last game I did have to flee from a Shaggas Wyvern Warboss to save the unit from being flanked (No way they'd have survived that), but when he tried in the front, he bounced and ran. He underestimated them too ;)

My own Warriors haven't done too badly in the flanking department either, claiming both Black and Blood Knight flanks in separate games. Just needs a bit of thought, and a readiness to flee with a 300 point unit if the situation demands it. Man I really need to add a musician to that unit ;)

logan054
06-04-2009, 18:30
So the army lost access to Beasts and Daemons... while I accept that the loss of Furies is annoying, if Beasts were an integral part of the Warriors army in previous editions, that highlighted that something was wrong. Again I would have preferred the choice and an element of mixing still, but the army works well enough for me without them. Similarly decent magic defence without sorcerers would have been quite handy, and was a missed opportunity that some other recent books did so well, but the army can just about survive without magic.

The problem with losing so many units is that you have a very bland army, Beast herds were a very useful unit to have in a mortal army. I dont know about you but i find i dont really want to use magic to counter fliers or skirmishers and really Spawn can only do so much and really only good against certain armies.

The army can work well enough but it hardly leads to much in the realm of diversity, you only real diversity is weapon options, so yeah the army is all about speed and combat, so that only really leaves you dragon ogres, knights, horsemen and hounds.

Havock
06-04-2009, 19:04
It's Warseer, so people will whine and complain no matter what, but it's especially bad with Chaos.

that's because the WoC case is especially bad. With the old list -I play(ed) Tzeentch mortals, with some furies and screamers as well as a beastmen herd there was some tactical flexibility: knights go after hard stuff, chariots support, daemons and beasts take care of flankers, warmachines etc.
Right now, I have the following option: charge things, wait until they are close, then charge them and of course, nuke them with gateway. The flying daemons and skirmishing beasts were fun, right now we have a few choices:
All Cav.
Infantry 'horde'.
Somewhere in between.
All thee come in the following flavours:with and without magic.


The books are totally fine for people who aren't afraid to use their imaginations, delve into a little "counts-as", and expand their concept of FLUFF and CANON. Yeah, guys. Sorry. It's changing. What was true yesterday now isn't. The gods can mix. So what? What was so utterly fantastic about the rivalries before anyway? Nothing.


It would be good if it was decently written rather than retconned. The fluff changes to suit the needs of GW's sales, look at battletech, they have a progressing storyline. They also dare to kill off characters, even main characters. GW just retcons stuff. Eltharion? Nope, the asswhooping he recieved at the hands of Malekith never happened. See? Not blind!


And who says you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T USE YOUR OLD FAVORITES? Do you all really have such inflexible, rude opponents who will refuse to allow you to use Beastmen alongside your Marauders? Or do you all play strictly in tournaments?

Of course nobody will bitch if you use your beastmen as marauders, it's just boring to not have skirmishers, flyers etc.


But even without doing that, both the 40k and Fantasy versions of Chaos offer up TONS of options for creative players as standalone products.

At the end of the day, it's all a matter of opinion, but I posit that those who complain most bitterly about the new Chaos being dull and unimaginative are guilty of being that very thing themselves. Lighten up, loosen up, and enjoy the game.

Or don't. It won't affect my enjoyment of the army.

Sme point there, but still, WoC is now an army of blocks of cav/infantry, with perhaps a few fast/flying characters. Everything is predictable, seeing as just about everything is stuck to fixed LOS arcs. I miss my skirmishers roving next to and behind my lines, I can live without the flyers, really, but skirmishers make the movement phase a bit more interesting.

MarcoPollo
06-04-2009, 20:02
I really like the army. When I think of Fantasy battle I think of Chaos warriors. They are the ultimate bad guys.

the fluff is OK. I've never put much stock into fluff anyways. It is just some writers concoction of a fictional theology of war. But the game flows quite well as an MSU army. None of my units or characters are over 300 pts, and the army does quite well. I would say that it is a "horde" of sorts.

Now, the only infantry I use are marauders. Them, and the spawns are my slowest units. So they usually stick together. My hero's are all mages, (no lords) and I am able to enjoy the game and be competitive.

As for super builds, I don't mind playing them. And if I loose, that's ok, because I am not out to create a powerbuild, but a build that I can enjoy playing ... win or loose.

Havock
06-04-2009, 21:43
Ironically, I'll go one further- you might even get the rear charge on them! And then you still have a great chance of bouncing off of a decently prepared Warrior unit, as has happened to Dragon Princes, and a Dragon Mage with Prince on Eagle as support in recent (separate) games. The way to use Warriors is as the back-up, for when your Knights do finally run out of steam and need saving for a turn. Last game I did have to flee from a Shaggas Wyvern Warboss to save the unit from being flanked (No way they'd have survived that), but when he tried in the front, he bounced and ran. He underestimated them too ;)

My own Warriors haven't done too badly in the flanking department either, claiming both Black and Blood Knight flanks in separate games. Just needs a bit of thought, and a readiness to flee with a 300 point unit if the situation demands it. Man I really need to add a musician to that unit ;)

Anecdotal evidence for the rear charge one actually.
That's saying Night Goblins can be really good if the chaos knights charging them fluff their attacks, true, but ultimately hardly compelling evidence :p

As for the second one: I agree, warriors do well in the '1-2 punch' setup: First the knights go in and kill as much as possible, then, if necessary the warriors charge whatever has/wants to charge the knights in the flank or something.

Nicha11
06-04-2009, 22:12
So far there's only been one WOC list that i considered.

The flying Circus.

x3 lv2 fully kitted out Tzeentch mages on discs, and 2 small units of warriors.
Exaclty 1000pts.

I find the army fun, and very powerful.

The Red Scourge
06-04-2009, 22:29
Lvl 4 Tzeentch Daemon Prince w. Tendrils of Tzeentch + 3 Lvl 2 Nurgle Sniper Sorcerors.

Thats some very bad mojo w. gateways and enough character killing to make people cry. Unfortunately the rest of your army won't matter :)

EvC
06-04-2009, 23:31
Anecdotal evidence for the rear charge one actually.

What do you mean "actually"? That suggests I claimed it was anything else, and I didn't- but it's certainly more compelling than a theoretical posit that they'd always suck, don't you think?


That's saying Night Goblins can be really good if the chaos knights charging them fluff their attacks, true, but ultimately hardly compelling evidence :p

The evidence is that there are plenty of situations where I'd be more than happy to let the enemy have a go at such a unit, even with a rear charge. Assuming the same unit that I typically use (14 models, two ranks, standard, war banner, shields), the Dragon Princes in the rear would only be expected to kill a couple of models; even the Dragon Mage and Prince (halberd) in the rear only kills 2 on average, leaving the Warriors free to fight back and kill the Mage himself and win the combat. This isn't about fluffing attacks- a unit of Warriors can take huge amounts of punishment, whilst still be able to hit back and do some damage. Good thing too at the amount they cost!

...on top of other uses :)

Ultimo ninja
06-04-2009, 23:58
Maybe DOW can be used to get flyers and skirmishers.

I dont know if DOW is legal, has a future, or is being wiped from the warhammer world.

If it is allowed, I would glaly convert some models to fill shooitn/ flying scouting/ skirmishing roles.

Cypher, the Emperor
07-04-2009, 01:34
Maybe DOW can be used to get flyers and skirmishers.

I dont know if DOW is legal, has a future, or is being wiped from the warhammer world.

If it is allowed, I would glaly convert some models to fill shooitn/ flying scouting/ skirmishing roles.

At this point its down to whatever GT you go to, as their legality tends to change on your country or tournament.

I for one field a DoW cannon in my Chaos army, never had a complaint. I'm thinking of converting some chaotic mercenary dwarfs (NOT Chaos Dwarfs) to add to my force too.

I think its honestly stupid that in all of their thousands of years ransacking the empire and other places that NO ONE HAS LEARNED HOW TO FIRE A BOW. GOBLINS can fire bows GOBLINS and yet ranged combat seems beyond the ken of marauders. Chaos Knights would look dumb with crossbows or something, but they could have at least given us some cultists or something.

I might have to convert up some cultist crossbowmen just to see how they play...

English 2000
07-04-2009, 04:10
I think its honestly stupid that in all of their thousands of years ransacking the empire and other places that NO ONE HAS LEARNED HOW TO FIRE A BOW. GOBLINS can fire bows GOBLINS and yet ranged combat seems beyond the ken of marauders. Chaos Knights would look dumb with crossbows or something, but they could have at least given us some cultists or something.

I might have to convert up some cultist crossbowmen just to see how they play...

It's not about learning. You're talking about men living in a culture where strength and hand to hand combat are highly valued. Those lacking in combat prowess are little better than slaves, or get killed off. Others would look down on guys learning to use sissy elf bows, or the guns that weakling Empire men rely on. If this was real life I'm sure there would be some shooting, some skirmishing etc. But this is a fantasy game with fantasy cultures, and in this fantasy culture everyone wants to get up close and personal to do some face bashing. This is fantasy, not reality!

The above part was obviously for you Cypher to offer my opinion on why I don't think it's unreasonable not to give shooty stuff to marauders in a fluff sense. I'm sure they use them for hunting but they're too girly and elf-like for musclebound outdoorsy type men to fight with in public. It would be like a 350 lbs solid muscle Hells Angel showing up at the clubhouse riding on a Vespa - he'd get his A$$ kicked!

The next part isn't directed at anyone:

To address the issue of WoC being boring/weak because they don't have skirmishers, flyers, scouts, shooters etc you need to keep in mind that each army is supposed to have a specific feel and has certain archetypes. Not everyone can have everything, if they did what would be the point of having different armies, they'd all be the same in the end.

Look what WoC does get:

Rock Hard Infantry - yes they're M4, so are Orcs, they still manage to get into combat!

Cheap as chips Infantry (that is still better than your average human)

Fast Calvalry that can be kitted out as ressonable medium cavalry, or cheapish flankers that do as much damage as some heavy cav can on the charge if you give them flails and maybe Khorne.

One of the best heavy cav units in the game!

Versatile characters, rock hard in combat. You can make them killy, or hard as nails to kill off, fast, slow, zappy. Whatever you want. You just have to be careful with them due to the challenge rules.

Dirt cheap, fast screening units.

One of the best chariots in the game!

Spawn, random but make decent tarpits

Loads of Monsters (trolls, ogres, giants, shaggoths, dragon ogres)

A warmachine that can't be killed by traditional war machine hunters (yes I realize it's expensive)

Cool Icons of Chaos

Awesome special characters - do you have any idea how much I'd like to get a unit of infantry behind enemy lines!!

Plus almost everything can be customized with marks!

WoC does not lack choice, and is not weak. And yes, it will be the next army I collect.

You lack scouts/skimishers, ranged units, flying units. That's about it.

You can't have everything in your armies!

Yes, chaos lost some neat stuff and didn't really get much in the way of new shiny units and I understand that stings for people with mixed collections, but at the end of the day designers have to draw the line with just how much stuff people get.

What's next, Dwarves whining about not getting heavy cav, fast cav and skirmishers? Think about what you do get and compare that to every other army out there - WoC really isn't hard done by for selection.

I'm going to say it again for effect:

You can't have everything in your armies!

kardar233
07-04-2009, 04:50
My vision of a WOC army has always been entirely Chaos-armoured. Just a wall of blackened steel stomping inexorably down the battlefield mowing down anyone with the temerity or stupidity to get close. Unfortunately, my LGS is about 80% comprised of 07-09 army books: Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Daemons etc. Saurus outfight my Warriors face-on, I can't catch Dark Elves before I am festooned with Hydra bites, magically-conjured blades and crossbow bolts, and Daemons, well, they're Daemons. Tzeentch specifically.

I just hope sometime I can find a less WAAC gaming community.

Seville
07-04-2009, 05:24
It's not about learning. You're talking about men living in a culture where strength and hand to hand combat are highly valued. Those lacking in combat prowess are little better than slaves, or get killed off. Others would look down on guys learning to use sissy elf bows, or the guns that weakling Empire men rely on. If this was real life I'm sure there would be some shooting, some skirmishing etc. But this is a fantasy game with fantasy cultures, and in this fantasy culture everyone wants to get up close and personal to do some face bashing. This is fantasy, not reality!

The above part was obviously for you Cypher to offer my opinion on why I don't think it's unreasonable not to give shooty stuff to marauders in a fluff sense. I'm sure they use them for hunting but they're too girly and elf-like for musclebound outdoorsy type men to fight with in public. It would be like a 350 lbs solid muscle Hells Angel showing up at the clubhouse riding on a Vespa - he'd get his A$$ kicked!

The next part isn't directed at anyone:

To address the issue of WoC being boring/weak because they don't have skirmishers, flyers, scouts, shooters etc you need to keep in mind that each army is supposed to have a specific feel and has certain archetypes. Not everyone can have everything, if they did what would be the point of having different armies, they'd all be the same in the end.

Look what WoC does get:

Rock Hard Infantry - yes they're M4, so are Orcs, they still manage to get into combat!

Cheap as chips Infantry (that is still better than your average human)

Fast Calvalry that can be kitted out as ressonable medium cavalry, or cheapish flankers that do as much damage as some heavy cav can on the charge if you give them flails and maybe Khorne.

One of the best heavy cav units in the game!

Versatile characters, rock hard in combat. You can make them killy, or hard as nails to kill off, fast, slow, zappy. Whatever you want. You just have to be careful with them due to the challenge rules.

Dirt cheap, fast screening units.

One of the best chariots in the game!

Spawn, random but make decent tarpits

Loads of Monsters (trolls, ogres, giants, shaggoths, dragon ogres)

A warmachine that can't be killed by traditional war machine hunters (yes I realize it's expensive)

Cool Icons of Chaos

Awesome special characters - do you have any idea how much I'd like to get a unit of infantry behind enemy lines!!

Plus almost everything can be customized with marks!

WoC does not lack choice, and is not weak. And yes, it will be the next army I collect.

You lack scouts/skimishers, ranged units, flying units. That's about it.

You can't have everything in your armies!

Yes, chaos lost some neat stuff and didn't really get much in the way of new shiny units and I understand that stings for people with mixed collections, but at the end of the day designers have to draw the line with just how much stuff people get.

What's next, Dwarves whining about not getting heavy cav, fast cav and skirmishers? Think about what you do get and compare that to every other army out there - WoC really isn't hard done by for selection.

I'm going to say it again for effect:

You can't have everything in your armies!

Bravo, sir, bravo. My thoughts exactly. Everyone whining about lack of skirmishers, flyers, etc simply think they deserve to have everything.

Well, I am going to leave it alone, because you've said it as well as it can be said.

Cypher, the Emperor
07-04-2009, 05:37
I wasn't saying that marauders were the ones who needed to get bows, that really doesn't make sense from a cultural standpoint, I just think that a Chaos Lord (much like an Orc Boss) could see the advantage in elslaving or hiring some people who could use ranged weapons.

While, sure, Dwarfs don't get a bunch of Monsters and Cavalry, and those two things, while awesome in their own right, hardly have their own game phase.

Isabel
07-04-2009, 05:41
I agree with English 2000 100%

Wasnt planning on joining the thread, but he laied out how I felt on the topic pretty damn well.

I think they did a great job making the chaos warriors feel like..... warriors.

That's why I chose WoC as my army. Nothing hiding in woods, nothing flying around in the breeze, just my armor clad chaos lord punching things in the face. Love it.

Kerill
07-04-2009, 07:43
It's not about learning. You're talking about men living in a culture where strength and hand to hand combat are highly valued. Those lacking in combat prowess are little better than slaves, or get killed off. Others would look down on guys learning to use sissy elf bows, or the guns that weakling Empire men rely on. If this was real life I'm sure there would be some shooting, some skirmishing etc. But this is a fantasy game with fantasy cultures, and in this fantasy culture everyone wants to get up close and personal to do some face bashing. This is fantasy, not reality!

- No you are talking about a culture where one of the largest marauder tribes are mounted horse archers, might want to re-check your understanding of the fluff.

The above part was obviously for you Cypher to offer my opinion on why I don't think it's unreasonable not to give shooty stuff to marauders in a fluff sense. I'm sure they use them for hunting but they're too girly and elf-like for musclebound outdoorsy type men to fight with in public. It would be like a 350 lbs solid muscle Hells Angel showing up at the clubhouse riding on a Vespa - he'd get his A$$ kicked!

The next part isn't directed at anyone:

To address the issue of WoC being boring/weak because they don't have skirmishers, flyers, scouts, shooters etc you need to keep in mind that each army is supposed to have a specific feel and has certain archetypes. Not everyone can have everything, if they did what would be the point of having different armies, they'd all be the same in the end.

- They don't need everything, they just need one unit to be able to go into difficult terrain or guard the rear/flanks from fliers. Paralysed by terrain isn't a specific feel.

Look what WoC does get:

Rock Hard Infantry - yes they're M4, so are Orcs, they still manage to get into combat!
- Orcs are FAR cheaper, will have US in combat and have Ld9 and break test re-roll for combat. More importantly they have a lot of decent ranged support in the form of cheap war machines.

Cheap as chips Infantry (that is still better than your average human)
- But cannot hold the line as well as your average human (or goblin for that matter). Decent cheap attack units or CR for fighty units.

Fast Calvalry that can be kitted out as ressonable medium cavalry, or cheapish flankers that do as much damage as some heavy cav can on the charge if you give them flails and maybe Khorne.
- Great fast cavalry, agree there.

One of the best heavy cav units in the game!
- Agreed, remarkably good unit

Versatile characters, rock hard in combat. You can make them killy, or hard as nails to kill off, fast, slow, zappy. Whatever you want. You just have to be careful with them due to the challenge rules.
NOT rock hard in combat against nasty things I'm afraid, far poorer performance than before. Thankfully the FAQ has removed the greatest weakness of chaos combat characters.

Dirt cheap, fast screening units.
- Excellent unit, no doubt about it

One of the best chariots in the game!
- It's ok, 120 points though, the old tuskgor ones were far better

Spawn, random but make decent tarpits
- Not too bad but in 7th edition they are far less effective tarpits both because every other army has got killier and because they lost the 3D6 move/flame attack

Loads of Monsters (trolls, ogres, giants, shaggoths, dragon ogres)
Shaggoths are *****, trolls are stuck with Ld8 for stupifity, giants are ok, dragon ogres and ogres are good, but why not take knights?

A warmachine that can't be killed by traditional war machine hunters (yes I realize it's expensive)
- A remarkably (IMO) unfluffy war machine that is a 205 point stone thrower.

Cool Icons of Chaos
- ?? The banners? They are actually quite decent

Awesome special characters - do you have any idea how much I'd like to get a unit of infantry behind enemy lines!!
- Special characters are quite good, but a lot of people don't like to use SC's

Plus almost everything can be customized with marks!
- Which is great, but which marks go with what unit is too much a no-brainer

WoC does not lack choice, and is not weak. And yes, it will be the next army I collect.
- Yes it DOES lack choice, but I agree it is not weak.

You lack scouts/skimishers, ranged units, flying units. That's about it.
- which leaves infantry and cavalry I believe.

You can't have everything in your armies!
- Chaos never has had everything, but now it has a lot less than before

Yes, chaos lost some neat stuff and didn't really get much in the way of new shiny units and I understand that stings for people with mixed collections, but at the end of the day designers have to draw the line with just how much stuff people get.
- Phil Kelly is a 40K player and did a VERY POOR job on the WOC book

What's next, Dwarves whining about not getting heavy cav, fast cav and skirmishers?
- Why would they need them? They aren't an attack army. The enemy has to come to them
Think about what you do get and compare that to every other army out there - WoC really isn't hard done by for selection.
- For a combat only army it is I'm afraid:
O&G- two units that can go through woods/terrain, lots of cheap war machines
VC- two excellent units that can travel through terrain and one crap one, good fliers
Ogres- well they suck but they do have 1 unit for going through terrain and a unit of scouts.
Brets- Skirmishers, archers, trebuchets and the best flying unit in the game bar none


I'm going to say it again for effect:

You can't have everything in your armies!
- sigh


Try playing low magic infantry based WOC against a well run wood elf, dark elf or lizardmen army. Hell try running them against a dwarf or empire gunline. Hell trying playing the army.

You can get around many of the problems with WOC of course:
Take heavy magic
Base the army around knights/fast things

Works very well. Alternatively you could:
Nope, no other alternatives, with the exception of DOW.

Any chaos army works well against a lot of armies (warriors are fine against attack armies as is low magic, low magic lots of troops also fine), but against 4/5 books on a table with terrain placed according to the terrain rules you will be shafted without magic.

Against an army with dragons/bloodthirsters you will be equally shafted unless you have a dragon of your own or gateway.

Against an opponent with medium shooting and fliers you will need 3-4 spawn to guard your infantry's flanks and rear (3 spawn for one to three infantry units, 4 spawn for 4 or more).

Still against most armies WOC don't really have a problem, just a few of them and for those magic can solve all your problems. Against a player who wants to get stuck in eventually you won't have any problems either. If you let a third person set up the terrain you should be fine as well.

Back OT:
I agree with the OP that many of the units are a lot more useful than given credit for and tbh I don't think the 4 knights of the apocalypse is the only way to play WOC and chaos infantry certainly has a role to play outside of banner of the gods lists.

Warriors as part of a mixed/balanced list are very useful and their T and lower cost means they will often survive when knights will be destroyed easily. Marauders are excellent with Khorne+Gw as a cheap but nasty attack unit and slaanesh marauders are good for a bit of static CR and mage bunker.

Dragon ogres are a very useful unit as well, S7 is tremendous for dealing with some things.

I've been quite happy with the performance of my forsaken so far (although if they were skirmishers I'd be far happier with the WOC list as a whole). 108 points for a unit to draw fire, force your opponent to react, drive off light troops and suicide charges on enemy units for mage hunting purposes. Not a unit to base your army on, but still handy enough if you have the points.

Spawn can work well with infantry and moving down the flanks are a decent tarpit if they can get a flank charge in (although moving in the compulsory phase shafts their ability to see off fliers).

Shaggoths- suck, absolutely.
Warshrines- suck, although if you have chosen with favour they aren't bad and if you have banner of the gods they are tremendous.

Chosen- With favour they actually aren't that much worse a choice than warriors. Give them shields and halberds. They aren't good but choosing them over warriors isn't the end of the world and some battles might pay off.

Ogres- not bad, 4 with MOK make a good all-purpose hammer. For smaller units I think you are better off with the DOW options- 2 leadbelchers with champ or three bulls are a fair bit cheaper if you just want a flanker, have bull charge, and leadbelchers give you some tactical options and a way of killing annoying skirmishers and fliers.
Ironguts led by a chaos character aren't a bad option either- war or runemaw banner and lookout knoblar gives you a unit with lots of attacks for breaking infantry and high S attacks for cavalry.

DOW:
Cannons- I consider more fluffy than hellcannons strangely, don't add too much to the army unless you are playing against gunlines/uber monsters but it's one way to make a low magic army work better.
Crossbows- Not the easiest unit to get a lot from when your army is advancing and maybe blocking LOS, not bad either mind
Halfline hotpot- I take one occasionally (converted chaos style), not particularly useful, more for fun and to have something to do in your shooting phase, occasionall actually kills something. Good artillery practice if you are thinking of buying a hellcannon.
Chaos Dwarves- slow, and more a choice you use because you like the idea (and are very fluffy in an army with a hellcannon). Still T4 3+save and Ld9 is always nice, and you can take crossbows too if you want an (expensive) all purpose unit.
Bull Rhinoxen- 161 points with a 3+ save, causes terror and hits at least as hard as a shaggoth and harder on the charge. Very good support unit and very easily chaos themed to fit in well with the army.
DOW light cavalry- marauders are better all round although the 55 point price tag may make them worth it if you are trying to save points. There is the bow option but it's not worth it in a chaos army IMO
DOW Heavy cavalry- 95 points for a unit of 5 is a bit of a bargain, handy unit for sending up a flank at war machines/missile troops while the knights/warriors take the centre.
DOW norse marauders- why bother rebasing your troops to 20mm bases? Slightly cheaper than a khorne marked unit if small, more expensive than a larger Khorne marked unit.
Dark emissary&Fenbeasts- very cool and fluffy addition to a chaos army. Nowhere near as useful as the chaos lord level casters but can make a nice change.
DOW Duellists- very good way to use beastmen models in a WOC army, armed with throwing axes (pistols) they add a unit of skirmishers that can really help. Combat stats fairly close to that of beastmen.
Beorg bearstruck- Fluffy addition to the army, not overly
Pikemen- just doesn't fit with WOC at all.

EvC
07-04-2009, 10:59
Saurus outfight my Warriors face-on

That shouldn't be the case, really. I've had a fair few games where a unit of Warriors and a unit of Saurus smash into each other, and the Warriors have always come out on top, without spectacular dice on either side...

logan054
07-04-2009, 12:10
depends on how big the warriors and saurus are and what weapon layout upgrades your talking about and who gets the charge.

Storak
07-04-2009, 12:48
- For a combat only army it is I'm afraid:
O&G- two units that can go through woods/terrain, lots of cheap war machines


"excellent" is a bit strong. the spiders are ok, but they are gobbos and fear nearly everything. they are good for blocking march moves while in a wood.

the hoppers are nice, but have SERIOUS disadvantages of their own. they also require precious special slots.

orcs lost their cavalry this edition. marauder cav is significantly better than gobbos and knights are much much much better than orcs.

i think the claim that O&G are somehow more mobile than WoC is simply false.

Havock
07-04-2009, 12:50
Bravo, sir, bravo. My thoughts exactly. Everyone whining about lack of skirmishers, flyers, etc simply think they deserve to have everything.

Well, I am going to leave it alone, because you've said it as well as it can be said.

Ohnoes, people like to have some choice in their armies! I spent, what, 50 on furies and screamers, then some person at GW decides I can't use them anymore, except in 'legendary battles', or by playing their fancy new parade army called daemons.

I don't give a rats **** about the mini's themselves, if/when someone rips you out of 50, I would completely sympathize with any resentful feelings. Let alone those who invested twice or thrice that amount to get some daemon/beastie support.

Isabel
07-04-2009, 12:57
Good thing there's ebay.

Voodoo Boyz
07-04-2009, 13:14
I play with 2-3 units of Harpies, and 1-2 units of Dark Riders in my "softer" DE list.

I have plenty of redirectors to deal with the M4 blocks, and to slow them down. The games I was playing had 2 or 3 blocks of Warriors/Chosen at most, they're that expensive.

Some games, they were trying to get the Chosen to RIDICULOUS levels of EotG buffed thanks to Warshrines, and re-rolls - and in cases where I know I can't break through Warriors because the units have the Rapturous Standard, the Frenzy Banner, or whatever - you simply don't engage them.

Yes, if they hit combats, they can crush just about anything depending on how you kit them. They still need to hit Combat's though.

Havock
07-04-2009, 14:05
Which will probably be at around turn 4-5, maybe three.
If the latter is the case your opponent is either a newbie, lacking marchblockers (who does? We do!) or feeding cheap units.

If my unit of warriors hits combat on turn three with a unit of 15 spearmen that are not crucial in any way whatsoever, I think I failed, they are so bloody expensive they need to hit something to get their points back.
Now, I don't normally believe that everything needs to make it's points back, but warriors are too expensive to just 'stand around and look purty. Although giving them a banner of wrath in combination with an already magic heavy army can pay off.

Just to make sure I don't sound too negative: WoC is 'ok'; it's just that the army could have been more interesting.

_Kalas_
07-04-2009, 14:25
I like the WoC book as well, it looks pretty diverse with different marks, very cheap units on one side, and very expensive elites on the other, all the different mounts for characters etc...BUT...
What I would LOVE to see is cult options, chaos warshippers from Empire/Brettonia , other so called civilized countries, we all know they exist, adding them would be nice.
Mutations for forsaken, just think about it, [wings :D for example hehehe]
Few more hero choices would be nice as well, aspiring champions, some chaos priests/coven leaders, quite similar to warrior priests, with some magic abilities[prayers? extra dispell dice?]
Would be lovely, with a little bit of good will, GW could easily replace units from demon/beasthood WoC lost in 7-th edition.
Still beeing mortal human beeings, just a little bit different, mutated,possesed by the force of chaos.

Ultimo ninja
07-04-2009, 16:02
I had an idea come to me last night. Kalas mentioned cultsts...I agree, they could be great. Heres my idea:

The chaos gods are supposed to be popular allover the world among secret socieites right?

So... they wander to world travelling under cover......praying to the gods......

Chaos cultists:

Basically, these guys are scouts who can skirmish. They can "convert" the enemy to your side to do certi things depending on their mark.

Khorne could turn the enemy into bloodthirsty unbreakablt psychos who turn on their comrades (like treason maybe )

tzeentch could turn them into models that hurt the enemy magic phase by denying power dice

nurgle could turn them into exploding suicide puss bags

slaanesh cout turn them into marchblockers who cinfuse the unit and halt them in their tracks whent they try to charge....


Just an idea.

Kalas, your idea for forsaken having wings soun awesome but iwings are for daemons, not spawns.....

I wouldnt mind haivng harpies or some kind of bird unit like vultures warped by chaos to take out warmachines.

Looks like hellcannon fire, marauder horse, ora champ on disc will have to do for now.

Nymie_the_Pooh
07-04-2009, 17:38
I think the list works. If anything jumps out at me, it is probably that the first unit I would have play-tested after yanking all the demons and beastmen out would have been some sort of hunting party. Basically skirmishing Marauders with options for light armour and throwing axes/javelins. Possibly spears. I'd have stuck it in the special choices to start. Some options I would test would be adding the scout special rule and seeing how out of place the other Marauder weapons would be. I might toy around with letting them have slings. I don't see these guys as fighters so much as hunter/gatherers.

Other than that, I think there might be a little too much access to monsters. I guess what gets me here is that we have better access to Trolls than Greenskins do which seems a bit off to me. Not something to get worked up over or anything though. The special monsters seem a bit redundant, but I do like having choices over the alternative.

TroyJPerez
07-04-2009, 17:50
Anyone have any idea how to counter the Lore of Metal, besides taking 2-4 dispell scrolls?

Kerill
07-04-2009, 17:54
"excellent" is a bit strong. the spiders are ok, but they are gobbos and fear nearly everything. they are good for blocking march moves while in a wood.

the hoppers are nice, but have SERIOUS disadvantages of their own. they also require precious special slots.

orcs lost their cavalry this edition. marauder cav is significantly better than gobbos and knights are much much much better than orcs.

i think the claim that O&G are somehow more mobile than WoC is simply false.

You never cease to amaze me storak, I never said that spider riders were "excellent", nor indeed anything else in the O&G army, and yet you attempt to get a misquote in there just so you can whine about O&G.

Storak- we know how you feel
No, really mate- WE KNOW

Luthor
07-04-2009, 18:00
Mabye Phil Kelly was one of the people that actually knows how to write a balanced army book? The three power codexes are VC, Daemons, and Dark Elves and lets look at the evidence.

Daemons = Mat Ward
Dark Elves = Graham McNeil (I may be wrong)
Vampire Counts = ?

Both Mat Ward and Graham McNeil I believe wrote Space Marine Codexes, hmmm.... Seems they thought making their army more powerful carried over into Fantasy.

EvC
07-04-2009, 18:01
Anyone have any idea how to counter the Lore of Metal, besides taking 2-4 dispell scrolls?

Not really, beyond standard tactics like killing the Wizard- bit difficult if it's a Slann slinging the spells at you. I like to include a couple of MR items in my army (Juggernaut/ Fury of Blood God) which helps against Rule of Burning Iron, but there really is no safe way of stopping Spirit of the Forge. For that reason, a scroll caddy is mandatory.

deggaroth
07-04-2009, 18:14
Are the rules for Menghil Manhides Manflayers still around? If so, I would recommend them for those who want scouts/skirmishers in their WOC list. I used them with 6th ed dark elves, and they performed extremely well. Has anyone tried them with WOC?

Furthermore, I've also been wondering why I haven't seen any lists using dual warshrines of Tzeentch. It seems to me that the 3+ ward save make them pretty good at taking abuse, not to mention the additional abilities that you get. Is this due to lack of GW giving you a model or is it one of those things that looks better on paper?

Kerill
07-04-2009, 18:18
Are the rules for Menghil Manhides Manflayers still around? If so, I would recommend them for those who want scouts/skirmishers in their WOC list. I used them with 6th ed dark elves, and they performed extremely well. Has anyone tried them with WOC?

Furthermore, I've also been wondering why I haven't seen any lists using dual warshrines of Tzeentch. It seems to me that the 3+ ward save make them pretty good at taking abuse, not to mention the additional abilities that you get. Is this due to lack of GW giving you a model or is it one of those things that looks better on paper?

Manflayers are still legal although it's hard to find the rules.

Warshrines have to take break tests and are M4 and US4, gnoblars can take them down easy.

W0lf
07-04-2009, 20:02
Ive posted extensvly on this subject before across numerous baords.

So this time ill chime in with;

Competitiveness and fun; WoC wins
Fluff translation to game: Hordes wins
Overall fell of army: Hordes wins
Diversity: Hordes wins
Fun: Hordes wins.

You dont have to be a genius to see WoC are more powerful then hordes of chaos, however for any hordes+woc players its obvious and pretty agreed hordes was more fun. I loved Hordes of Chaos. I hate WoC. My group would allow me to use the Hordes book now (because i love it and not for abuse reasons) but im currently in love with VCs and dont approve of using older books.

logan054
07-04-2009, 22:07
Ive posted extensvly on this subject before across numerous baords.

So this time ill chime in with;

Competitiveness; WoC wins


thought i would correct that for you, i dont think it wins any fun over the HoC book ;)

I like the WoC book so much i havent used the army since last year, same as daemons actually (just different reasons), reason why? i hate magic heavy armies, i hate cavalry heavy armies and essentially to present a decent game i have to ask someone to play warhammer i manor i like or use a army that i find dull to use.

Jericho
08-04-2009, 01:49
http://www.sactosaws.com/SAWSChallenge/RoR-menghils-manflayers.pdf

They're a fantastic unit, but they are vulnerable to magic missiles and auto-hit shooting attacks. Neither of which you can really shut down with most Chaos lists. I love these guys in my DoW army, but I can't see them working in WOC. Just too damn expensive to fit in, and you don't have the magic defense to keep them alive.

Storak
08-04-2009, 08:09
You never cease to amaze me storak, I never said that spider riders were "excellent", nor indeed anything else in the O&G army, and yet you attempt to get a misquote in there just so you can whine about O&G.

Storak- we know how you feel
No, really mate- WE KNOW

you used O&G as your first counter example, showing strong options on selection (in the mobility section):



Think about what you do get and compare that to every other army out there - WoC really isn't hard done by for selection.
- For a combat only army it is I'm afraid:
O&G- two units that can go through woods/terrain, lots of cheap war machines
VC- two excellent units that can travel through terrain and one crap one, good fliers

you used the term "excellent" in the next line, talking about VC. (my assumption from your comment was, that you were listing good/excellent units. i am sorry, if i was wrong and you simply threw in some mediocre choices from the O&G army..)

my point stands: using O&G simply wasn t a good idea. WoC are a competitive army list. O&G aren t. you simply failed to account for the STRONG parts in the WoC list, over the other ones you mentioned!

if you would allow WoC players to take spiders or squig hoppers, most wouldn t use them at all. (if you would allow them to use gobbo BTs, they might dominate even daemons..)

eyeolas
08-04-2009, 14:14
I agree they may not be up to scratch with daemons or lizies, but WoC are still a very competative army that can build a bunch of different lists (maybe not as many as people would like, but there are still several good builds out there, and hundreds of less competative ones).

I play OnG (with a fair few artillery pieces, and a unit each of spiders and hoppers) and found that chaos blocks, although expensive, are now nigh unbeatable to all but the strongest units (which OnG clearly lack, especially in less than 2k). they got 1 better a save AND a second attack basic AND free re-rolls for panic, and your telling me they dropped in points! (not to mention their weapons got cheeper). The average chaos man in chaos armour is costing you 2-3 less points than in 6th ed, and is twice as hard. Stick a shield on them and walk them up to ranked saurus blocks and see what happens. I have and even the cold blood rule could save them running.

Aside from the basic warrior, merauders are still prety hefty for so few points (I'd get a merauder over an orc anyday). Their fast cavalry are both dirt cheep (even by OnG standards!) and will make a mess of most plans, and their heavy cav have the same points drop/stat increas as warriors, not to mention an EXTRA +1 str 'cus of their weapons

Characters might have gotten a little weaker, but they are still viable and will add good bang for their buck, especially with some of the new items. Sorcerors, these just got even better. The new lores of Chaos are SO much better than the old ones (save tzeench possibly). Just look at every spell in the nurgle lore and tell me they ALL shouldn't be one higher to cast. If daemons had those spells i'm sure they'd be even happier, and thats saying a lot. Special characters have also gotten the now regular ultra boost in power for half in points, just look at archeon, pure filth, even when compaired to the DE SCs.

so personally I don't quite get why people say that WoC aren't a powerfull army, 'cus personally I recon they have some of the best individual components of an army in the game (looking mostly at the cavalry department, but still)

As for being interesting, I recon people are still just disapointed that daemons and beasts split from them. I do hope that there are some minor allying rules because it would make things more interesting, but they do still have the more interesting choices over some of the other new armies (they have about the same choices as Lizies if you replace fast cavalry with skirmishers, and a hefty few more than DEs for sure, who have so few tricks up their sleaves its already gotten old)

selone
08-04-2009, 15:40
The dark elf book was Gav thorpe wasn't it? Anyways it does seem theres load of choice in the WoC book, just not much competitive choice. Millions of special characters though.

I think both orc and Woc fast cavalry is good btw :)

Ultimo ninja
08-04-2009, 18:51
I think the dark elevs have more options. They have flyers, skirmishers, far more shooting, scouts, etc.

I like the DE book so much I might build a DE army as soon as i get 2250 pts for my woc army completed.

They can go mass shooting, mass magic, mass CC (although not as good as ours), etc.

Its ok though, maybe youve played them allot and im sure allot of people think that way after playing any army after a while.

Dexter099
09-04-2009, 05:34
I love the new WoC book. By the way, if you don't like WoC Ogres, do what I did with my easy Ogre Bull Assemblage.

_Kalas_
09-04-2009, 06:52
I think the dark elevs have more options. They have flyers, skirmishers, far more shooting, scouts, etc.

I like the DE book so much I might build a DE army as soon as i get 2250 pts for my woc army completed

tempted by the dark side You are...:D