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Lord Asuryan
06-04-2009, 16:06
I hate to be the one to bring this up, but some of my friends are already levelling cheese/OP/underpowered accusations at each other, particuarly about the good armies (they all play evil) here are a few of the usual complaints, maybe you could tell me if they're justified.
note--I play gondor, these are not my complaints, nor were all of them about my army.:cheese:

Gondor:
Aragorn. apparently his free might rule is 'rigged' and in addition to +2 strength, epic duel, and epic journey, he is rigged.

Boromir. most of the complaints centre around his six might points. apparently valueing him at 25 points a might, he should cost way more. and this is without using the mumak-killing interpretation of his mighty blow rule.

ability to ally with elves/gandalf for magic.

Court of the dead king is overpowered-undercosted in every possible way.

Elves:
Ringwraith sniping

troops that evil armies have much difficulty beating

really good spells

Cirdan is apparently incredibly cheesy because he's cheaper than a joe shaman, has command (god are there a lot of complaints about this lore) and can snipe ringwraiths, or use the highest focus spell to heal expensive units.
+ his ignore hits special rule (which always gets forgotten)

characters tend to have good fight=very good at duels

Mordor:
apparently, trolls SHOULDN'T die to bowfire.

similarly, trolls SHOULD be able to massacre infantry

Mordor Orcs are underpowered, unless given bows (box set only comes with 4) or spammed

Nazgul can be sniped.

Castellens get their ass handed to them by army of the dead

Witch King has no 'unkillable' special rule to prevent anyone but eowyn from killing him in a duel.
actually, it's more that he only has resilience 2 that bugs people. and that his rule doesn't seem as awe inspiring as, say khamul's.

In general, mordor is inferior

that's about it-I just want to know if any of these claims are substantiated, or just whining, so we can make appropriate changes/arguments. I'm not best equipped to assess that, seeing as I play gondor, and am getting complaints myself.
thanks, and sorry for starting the cheese discussion for war of the ring.
:cheese::cheese::cheese::cheese::cheese:

Spider-pope
06-04-2009, 16:29
Well for a start, the game has been out for about 2 days, so it really is way too soon to start arguments over cheese. I've been playing WOTR for about 2 months, and i have found nothing so far that is unbeatable or overpowered.

Yeah Aragorn can be a problem, but if you get the charge on his formation with a monster, his +2 fight means diddly squat.

Cirdan's magic is far from overpowered. He only has a mastery of 1, so 1 spell a turn for him. His ability to use the heal power is nothing special at all. All magic users pass their first spell for free anyway. His other abilties arent going to set the world on fire.

Elf units may be good but they are also expensive. You can get 3 companies of Orcs for the cost of 1 Galadhrim company. Even the best elf fighter can be swamped by sheer weight of numbers.

Besides Good armies are hardly overpowered as a whole, since Evil might not have amazing heroes but they have access to Trolls, Dragons, Balrogs. Hell if they are moaning about Mordor being weak just tell them to take Sauron.

Its just whining if you ask me. Let everyone get a few months experience and then proper discussions of cheese can begin.

takaetun
06-04-2009, 16:34
Basically, deal with it. For the majority of rules, they're very, very well priced. Yes, Aragorn is good, but he's 200 points, at which point I can throw two trolls at his company and watch him fall over. Gil-galad in a big unit of Rivendell Guard, or the Gimli/Dain/Khazad guard combo? Mumak.

The trolls shouldn't die to bowfire/should be able to massacre infantry is fairly pathetic, if I can be so bold. What the hell do they want them to be able to die from? Cannon fire? Oh, thats right, there isn't any. I'd like to remind your friends that Legolas killed the cave troll with arrowfire, which they presumably don't bitch about.

Why the hell would the Witch-King have that special rule? Yes, his ability isn't so fantastic, but him on a Fellbeast, first turn behind, your entire force slams forward, then you fly behind the enemy and stop them moving. The complaint about the Eowyn/duel thing is as intelligent as complaining that Sauron can die to, oh, anything, or that Gil-Galad can die to anyone except Sauron.

Mordor Orcs are fantastic - mob rule is lethal, especiall in big units, which I'd like to remind everybody, they are meant to be in - they're orcs!

Characters having good fight being good in duels? Heavens, no! How dare someone who is good at fighting be good at fighting in duels.

Complaints about allies? Take a Mumak. Take two. Walk over them. Watch them bitch.

Basically, harden up. WotR is a fantastically balanced game, and if you're looking at it how models 'should' be able to do things ,'because its in character', you have issues. From that perspective, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli etc should be unkillable, because they live through the book. Mordor is a horrifically powerful list, perhaps the best of the Evil ones, and orcs, as I said, are great. I'm sorry if that sounds a little harsh, but we're, what, three days after release? And they're bitching already?

How are your wraiths being sniped? This one isn't a slap down, just curious.

Rirekon
06-04-2009, 16:40
I'll see all the complaints about Good and raise you the Easterling, who is just ridiculously hard. Reflecting 1/3 hits against his Formation back on you in combat, that's just sick... and I plan on playing Evil!

takaetun
06-04-2009, 16:42
Or lets go Ghostly Legion + the Tainted + Wormtongue vs anything, even elves. Or maybe show them Gulavhar.

Lord Asuryan
06-04-2009, 16:45
they aren't my wraiths, I'm the good player.

wraiths are being sniped by that one command spell, -1/2 courage, d3/d6 hits on spirits. if they're in orcs, well...
and the people (only one persons a real whiner) don't like using might to dispel.

about the only logical issue I get is about court of the dead king-they're cheap, have command, and special rules.

Spider-pope
06-04-2009, 16:47
they aren't my wraiths, I'm the good player.

wraiths are being sniped by that one command spell, -1/2 courage, d3/d6 hits on spirits. if they're in orcs, well...
and the people (only one persons a real whiner) don't like using might to dispel.

about the only logical issue I get is about court of the dead king-they're cheap, have command, and special rules.

If they arent willing to use might to dispel magic that they know will kill their wraiths then really its their own fault. Its the equivalent of me complaining that magic is overpowered in Warhammer because i refuse to take dispel scrolls.

Rirekon
06-04-2009, 17:01
they aren't my wraiths, I'm the good player.

wraiths are being sniped by that one command spell, -1/2 courage, d3/d6 hits on spirits. if they're in orcs, well...
and the people (only one persons a real whiner) don't like using might to dispel.

about the only logical issue I get is about court of the dead king-they're cheap, have command, and special rules.

Wait, are they using a spell which affects the Formation/Company to kill a Hero? Pretty sure that won't work unless it specifies that it affects any Heroes, will have to check the wording later.

Spider-pope
06-04-2009, 17:08
Wait, are they using a spell which affects the Formation/Company to kill a Hero? Pretty sure that won't work unless it specifies that it affects any Heroes, will have to check the wording later.

The spell causes D3-D6 auto hits on spirits, Ringwraiths are spirits ergo they take D3-D6 wounds whilst the rest of the formation stuffers -1 - -2 courage.

Rirekon
06-04-2009, 17:13
The spell causes D3-D6 auto hits on spirits, Ringwraiths are spirits ergo they take D3-D6 wounds whilst the rest of the formation stuffers -1 - -2 courage.

Unless the spell specifies that it affects Heroes within Formations in addition to the Formation then only the Formation is affected. At least that's how I remember the rules working, does someone have them to hand before I can look it up later?

jaws900
06-04-2009, 17:13
These are faceless arguments really. Not much has changed from the transistion.
Borormoir - Had 6 might and favoured being outnumbetred and could hack down muruk Stake with each slice.
Witchking - Always couldn't take hits that well and all Nazgul have major weakness that they suffer from.

It's just spinning of the facts to make the situation look unfair. If it was they wouldn't have bother to make WOTR.
In a online game you don't often chose to play a Dwarf's, Elf, Men, Wizard etc because there broken you play as them becuase you want to play as them.

Spider-pope
06-04-2009, 17:30
Unless the spell specifies that it affects Heroes within Formations in addition to the Formation then only the Formation is affected. At least that's how I remember the rules working, does someone have them to hand before I can look it up later?

There is nothing in the rules saying that. As long as the hero is within range and arc of sight of the casters company, they are effected. And page 72 specifically says the following


A Magical power that is targeted against a formation will also effect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation.

Rirekon
06-04-2009, 17:38
Ah well fair enough then... that does suck.

So spells which inflict damage against a Formation, say D6 for arguments sake, will deal D6 damage against the Formation and then a further D6 against each Epic Hero in it? Well that increases my opinion of the Ruin spells somewhat.

Captain Shrike
06-04-2009, 18:25
You can't attack Heroes...

Rirekon
06-04-2009, 19:59
Now I've read the actual rule I disagree that spells like Light of Valar will damage Ring Wraiths which are part of units. The intention is clear to me to be that spells which have modifiers also affect the Hero, so a unit which suffers -2 Courage can't use the Hero's Courage to ignore the effect - instead they use the Hero's modified Courage.

Otherwise it leads to all Heroes being slaughtered by Bolt of Fire.

In fact if you read further you'll notice that Heroes (Epic or otherwise) never have a Defence listed so you have nothing to base your damage roll off. The only way to kill Heroes is with abilities which specifically target them (like Heroic Duels) or destroying their Company in combat.

Avatar of the Eldar
06-04-2009, 21:15
Your title captures it well. For me, it comes down to this: Players with a "What will the letter of the rules let me get away with?" = Retarded game out of the gate.

If I smell that coming from a player, I won't play them. There look to be players who will self-manage according to the Tolkein background and its implied logic.

One of the things I love about this game is the explicit admonition in the ruleset to guide off the spirit of the game and aim for fun play. i.e. Don't spoil the game being a dick about getting every advantage.

lorelorn
07-04-2009, 09:34
No, Light of the Valar cannot 'snipe' Nazgul out of units, since the target of the spell is an enemy formation, not an epic hero.

Spider-pope
07-04-2009, 09:52
Now I've read the actual rule I disagree that spells like Light of Valar will damage Ring Wraiths which are part of units. The intention is clear to me to be that spells which have modifiers also affect the Hero, so a unit which suffers -2 Courage can't use the Hero's Courage to ignore the effect - instead they use the Hero's modified Courage.

Otherwise it leads to all Heroes being slaughtered by Bolt of Fire.


Different situation and a different type of spell.Bolt of Fire wouldnt have any impact as Heroes only get removed if there are more of them than normal troops left in a formation, and if bolt of fire ever gets you to that point then they would be removed anyway since the last company would be under half strength.

Light of the Valar is an oddity because its a unit affecting spell with the damage spirits tacked on. Under RAW it says they should be affected with D3-D6 wounds, but id say RAI they arent. Its another thing to talk about with an opponent beforehand.


You can't attack Heroes...

The spell isnt attacking heroes, its attacking the formation, which the hero is part of. The debatable part is whether to apply the spirit damaging part or not.

rakath
07-04-2009, 10:04
It's pretty clear that the "...targeted against a formation will also effect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" -part deals just with modifiers.
Even all the examples are about modifiers, not damage.

So you don't get to basically roll double damage if your formation happens to have a Hero in it. You roll the d3/d6 damage once, it affects the Formation. And the Courage modifier affects the Formation - If you have a Hero in it, his Courage is modified, too.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 10:12
Different situation and a different type of spell.
It's the same situation. We're discussing whether a spell which inflicts damage will inflict that damage against a Hero in a Formation. Consider if you had a Ring Wraith in a Formation of Spirits (can't think of one that allows them off the top of my head).
Obviously the Formation takes D3/D6 hits, are you suggesting that by "RAW" the Hero also takes D3/D6 hits? If you are then this is the same thing as a spell like Bolt of Fire dealing D6 hits to a Formation and D6 against the Hero.


Bolt of Fire wouldnt have any impact as Heroes only get removed if there are more of them than normal troops left in a formation, and if bolt of fire ever gets you to that point then they would be removed anyway since the last company would be under half strength.

Yet you're suggesting that Valar does, they both inflict hits yet you're saying that one hits Heroes while the other doesn't even though neither specifies damaging Heroes.


Light of the Valar is an oddity because its a unit affecting spell with the damage spirits tacked on. Under RAW it says they should be affected with D3-D6 wounds, but id say RAI they arent. Its another thing to talk about with an opponent beforehand.

Not an oddity at all, the damage is applied following the normal rules for damaging Formations. RAW is debatable - which is fairly obvious given the disagreement here :)


The spell isnt attacking heroes, its attacking the formation, which the hero is part of. The debatable part is whether to apply the spirit damaging part or not.

If it's attacking the Formation then you check whether the Formation are Spirits. If they are then apply the damage to the Formation, if not then don't.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 11:56
I'm gonna side with Rakath on this one - "...targeted against a formation will also effect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" kind of shuts down the argument. The character is affected, as he is part of the unit, and as he is subject to a different rule, will suffer hits as the spell states.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 12:16
I'm gonna side with Rakath on this one - "...targeted against a formation will also effect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" kind of shuts down the argument. The character is affected, as he is part of the unit, and as he is subject to a different rule, will suffer hits as the spell states.

So how does Bolt of Fire affect a Hero? They have no Defence for a reason.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 12:20
Its a separate issue - you can't target characters, so Bolt of Fire doesn't work there. On the other hand the spell we're discussing doesn't target heroes - it targets formations, of which the hero is a part. The hero takes hits, being a spirit, because spirits take hits from the spell, which is affecting the entire formation, which the hero takes the spell effects of.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 12:31
Its a separate issue - you can't target characters, so Bolt of Fire doesn't work there. On the other hand the spell we're discussing doesn't target heroes - it targets formations, of which the hero is a part. The hero takes hits, being a spirit, because spirits take hits from the spell, which is affecting the entire formation, which the hero takes the spell effects of.

Bolt of Fire targets Formations too, of which the Hero is a part. This is no different. See my previous example of a Ring Wraith in a Formation of Spirits.

Heroes do not take damage except through methods which specifically target them (i.e. Heroic Duel). The fact that they don't have a Defence rating should make this fairly clear.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 12:37
The spell in question does not use defence, it simply causes hits. Your argument that "heroes do not take damage except throughmethods which specifically target them" should probably get backed up with a page number and a quote, as otherwise, the Nazgul takes the hits.

The spell targets spirits. The Wraith is a spirit. The hero is not being targetted in the same way that an ability with a radius instead of a target, for example, does not target formations - if you are within the range, you take the effects.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 12:40
The spell in question does not use defence, it simply causes hits. Your argument that "heroes do not take damage except throughmethods which specifically target them" should probably get backed up with a page number and a quote, as otherwise, the Nazgul takes the hits.

The spell targets spirits. The Wraith is a spirit. The hero is not being targetted in the same way that an ability with a radius instead of a target, for example, does not target formations - if you are within the range, you take the effects.

The spell targets a Formation, the effect changes based on whether that Formation is/are(?) Spirits.

If you have a Ring Wraith in a Formation of Spirits does the Light of Valar inflict D3/D6 hits against the Formation and a further D3/D6 against the Ring Wraith?
If it does then the Ring Wraith would also take hits from other damage spells like Bolt of Fire.
If it doesn't then the Ring Wraith won't take hits if it's in a Formation of non-Spirits.

Seriously, if you can't apply your interpretation consistently then your interpretation is wrong.

rakath
07-04-2009, 12:49
No, the Nazgul doesn't take hits. The formation already took the hits. Nowhere it says that if you have a Hero in a formation, you take hits both to the Formation AND the hero.

"...targeted against a formation will also affect any Epic Heroes that have joined that formation" deals just with modifiers. So if your unit is at -2 Courage, your hero is as well.

You don't get to "double your damage" for each Hero in the company.
The spell doesn't even target Spirits. It just causes more damage to spirit targets. Which is irrelevant, because the Nazgul isn't the target here. The Formation is.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 12:54
Seriously, if you can't apply your interpretation consistently then your interpretation is wrong.
Correct. Your failing here is that the application is not inconsistent.

The formation takes X effect, and any model which is Y takes additional effect Z.
The formation takes Bolt of Fire.
The formation suffers a negative to courage, and any model which is a Spirit takes additional hits.

The spell's wording does not say "if the formation are (is?) Spirits, then they suffer D3 automatic hits". The wording states that "if the target enemy [read: any enemy being targeted, which includes the Nazgul as it is part of the formation] are spirits, they etc etc".

Bolt of Fire hits a formation. Light of the Valar hits a formation, with additional effects if a model is a Spirit. Therefore, the formation suffers the effects as stated, which include burning the crap out of the former king.

Edit: Furthermore, if the hero is not affected, then the spell has no effect - the spell lowers the formations leadership, but, according to you, ignores the spirit in the middle of it. As such, the formation is still Courage 5. If the spell lowers the leadership of the Spirit, then he takes hits.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 13:30
The wording states that "if the target enemy [read: any enemy being targeted, which includes the Nazgul as it is part of the formation] are spirits, they etc etc".

The Ring Wraith is not the target, the Formation is. Does the Formation have the Spirit rule? In the case of a unit or Orcs, not it doesn't.

Now, if you have a Ring Wraith in a Formation of Spirits does the Light of Valar inflict D3/D6 hits against the Formation and a further D3/D6 against the Ring Wraith?

Simple yes/no will suffice.

Reinholt
07-04-2009, 17:56
Some relevant passages:


Unless otherwise stated, the target of the magical power must be within both range and arc of sight and visible to the casting Hero's company.

When a Hero employs a magical power, the player declares which power he will use and the target of that power. The magical power is then cast. A dice is rolled to determine the effect, which is then immediately applied to the target.


Light of the Valar:

Choose one enemy formation within 24" of the caster and roll a D6. On a 2-5, the target suffers -1 penalty to its Courage for the remainder of the turn. In addition, if the target enemy are Spirts, they suffer D3 automatic hits. If a 6 is rolled when casting the spell, the target formation instead suffers a -2 penalty to its Courage. If the target enemy are spirits, they suffer D6 automatic hits, rather than D3.


Resilience

As with other troops, a Hero's Resilience represents the amount of damage he can sustain before succumbing to his wounds. Unlike other troops, a Hero's Resilience is used only in a duel (see Heroic Duels on p67) or against certain magical powers (see p70).

So let me pause here before I continue. From what I read, I see the following:

1 - Magic seems to follow the normal target rules, which indicates the formation is the target.

2 - Clearly the target of Light of the Valar must be a formation (it says it in the first sentence).

3 - What is unclear to me, currently, is if Light of the Valar would have an additional impact on one specific character who was a spirit within an entire unit that was composed of non-spirit characters.

On the surface, that seems weird to me; focusing D3 hits on an individual character when the formation is the target seems bizarre, but as of yet, I don't see compelling evidence in either direction. What is interesting to me was the comment about certain magical powers, so I started digging through the magical power list. The vast majority of them read exactly like Light of the Valar ("Choose one enemy formation..."), but there's a notable pair of exceptions:


Black Dart

Choose one enemy Hero within 6" of the caster...

and


Black Breath

Chose one enemy Hero within 6" of the caster...

Hmm. So it appears to me there are a special class of spells that specifically reference being able to target a hero and impact them directly; their ranges are shorter, their focus is higher, and in short, they appear to be specifically designed for hero sniping and make major sacrifices to do so. This would be my first knock against interpreting the Light of the Valar ruling in favor of sniping Ringwraiths. This seems to expressly violate the fact that there are spells that specifically state they target heroes.

Secondly, the argument about inconsistency with regard to application matters. If a unit was spirits with no heroes, they would take D3 hits. If a unit was non-spirits with a spirit hero, they would take D3 hits if you can snipe. But then, what about a spirit unit with a spirit hero? Do both take D3 hits? This clearly violates the targeting and hit allocation rules earlier in the book. Internally inconsistent, and this also worries me.

Given both of those, my view is this:

You can't snipe a hero out of a unit with Light of the Valar (or any other ability that is similarly constructed). The target for Light of the Valar is very clearly the formation, not the hero, as there are specific spells that target the hero and they are worded differently. Likewise, if this is allowed, it leads to incredibly inconsistent rules about hit allocation, and this is also obviously not working properly.

In short, if anyone wanted to play the rule that way (which, quite bluntly, I don't think makes any sense in context of how the spells are worded), I'd probably refuse to play them and, likewise, recommend to anyone who I game with that they do the same.

Nilhouse
07-04-2009, 19:30
Uh, back on topic, you can counter all those arguments of Mordor sucking with Gothmog. He is insanely undercosted for his abilities. I don't have a problem with him, but his cost should be 150 minimum, if not more.

I actually think Mordor is one of the more powerful armies in the game. Waves of cheap Orcs, or even better, really cheap but fast allied Moria Goblins to soften up your opponent in the first wave, and then follow up with cheap but awesome Morannon orcs, Trolls, etc.

Rirekon
07-04-2009, 19:46
Light of the Valar:

Choose one enemy formation within 24" of the caster and roll a D6. On a 2-5, the target suffers -1 penalty to its Courage for the remainder of the turn. In addition, if the target enemy are Spirts, they suffer D3 automatic hits. If a 6 is rolled when casting the spell, the target formation instead suffers a -2 penalty to its Courage. If the target enemy are spirits, they suffer D6 automatic hits, rather than D3.

Emphasis mine; The Formation is the target so you check to see if they are Spirits.

Thanks for the qoutes Reinholt :)

shadowz
08-04-2009, 02:08
So just to confirm for all, a spell only affects the formation not each hero. Or else that spell would kill the nine are abroad almost instantly as the formation would take d6 hits then each ring wraith would take d6 hits on top of that?

Got it:angel:

msoong
08-04-2009, 02:41
To paraphrase: When an epic hero joins a unit, the hero take on the traits of the unit, but the unit do NOT take on the traits of the hero.

This means when a wraith joins a unit of orcs, he is no longer a "spirit", and the formation does not cause terror (see the other thread debating this). THis means the light of valar affect a whole formation of spirits only (like army of the dead or its evil equivalent)... or the legendary formation of all 9 wraiths...