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40kdhs
06-04-2009, 17:22
A lord on a dragon has involved in CC for 2 turns. Lord dies on turn 3 and a dragon fails his monster reation test and has 'frienzy and hatred".

At this turn 3, can a dragon re-roll fail to hits because of hatred?

thank you.

stripsteak
06-04-2009, 17:42
i'm going to say no since it is not the first turn of combat, since the rules for hatred say first round of combat, not first round of combat that you have hatred for. i thought i remembered seeing something similar to this in a faq but i can't find it now.

nosferatu1001
06-04-2009, 20:52
No, it's not the first round of combat.

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 21:00
Hatred only works in the first round of any combat. So the Dragon will not get to re-roll hits if it's turn 3 of the combat I am afraid :(

Spirit
06-04-2009, 21:33
Surely in this case it would count as the first round of combat for hatred.

If your going to say no to this, would you say the same to a skaven screaming bell that rolls hatred for the army? Seems a bit harsh to me.

Im aware the rule wording is "first turn of combat", but i've always assumed you have to have hatred to start the turn count.

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 22:09
Surely in this case it would count as the first round of combat for hatred.

If your going to say no to this, would you say the same to a skaven screaming bell that rolls hatred for the army? Seems a bit harsh to me.

Im aware the rule wording is "first turn of combat", but i've always assumed you have to have hatred to start the turn count.

Well if the Dragon was already affected by Hatred at the beginning of the Combat as a result of the Lord having it then i wouldn't allow it. However if the Lord didn't have hatred and then the Mount gained it after the Lord had been slain then yeah i would as its the first turn the dragon has been affected by Hatred.

Maybe that's just me

Spirit
06-04-2009, 22:30
Well if the Dragon was already affected by Hatred at the beginning of the Combat as a result of the Lord having it then i wouldn't allow it. However if the Lord didn't have hatred and then the Mount gained it after the Lord had been slain then yeah i would as its the first turn the dragon has been affected by Hatred.

Maybe that's just me

I have a feeling we are about to be jumped on by rules lawyers!

Ganymede
06-04-2009, 22:36
Ordinarily, I would agree with you all, but this Q&A from the Empire FAQ gives me pause.

Q. As hatred normally only works in the first turn of a clsoe combat, when a player elects to martyr flagellants in a second or subsequent round of combat, do the flagellants still get to re roll missed attacks?

A. Yes, as the effects are renewed at the beginning of each round of combat, which effectively counts as their first round of combat.

EvC
06-04-2009, 23:15
I've wondered the same regarding Black Coaches sucking up power dice and becoming subject to hatred after the first round of combat, but the Empire FAQ isn't enough for me to claim an additional advantage over my opponent :)

havoc626
07-04-2009, 01:50
Ordinarily, I would agree with you all, but this Q&A from the Empire FAQ gives me pause.

Q. As hatred normally only works in the first turn of a clsoe combat, when a player elects to martyr flagellants in a second or subsequent round of combat, do the flagellants still get to re roll missed attacks?

A. Yes, as the effects are renewed at the beginning of each round of combat, which effectively counts as their first round of combat.

Interesting, because they went the other way for SKaven getting hatred from the Screaming Bell. They said that the rat's would only get the bonus if it was the first round of that combat.

stripsteak
07-04-2009, 19:49
i knew i'd seen something like this before. the skaven faq (thanks for mentioning it)

Q. If an 11-12 result is rolled when ringing the Screaming Bell (Skaven units become subject to hatred) does a Skaven unit already engaged in combat get to re-roll failed hits?
A. Only if it is in the first round of combat – the normal rules for Hatred still apply.

thats really strange that they would rule opposite ways for it...well only not really weird it is GW after all. I could maybe see them giving the flagelent one more power since it involves losing people to do it, as well only lasting during that combat phase. the skaven one would last through your combat phase and your opponents next one making it a little more powerful...maybe.

Grimgormx
07-04-2009, 21:09
I would let the drago reroll, its common sense, the dragon just lost his little budy, so he hates inmediatly, he wont wait until the killers flew to start hating it.

Also, in the first round the dragon didnt hate the enemy, so the first of turn it hates should be the turn it rerolls.

But if you cant agree, roll dices.

Deon
07-04-2009, 21:49
I would let the drago reroll, its common sense, the dragon just lost his little budy, so he hates inmediatly, he wont wait until the killers flew to start hating it.

Also, in the first round the dragon didnt hate the enemy, so the first of turn it hates should be the turn it rerolls.

But if you cant agree, roll dices.

indeed this makes the most sence to me,
its just logic that the dragon can reroll, because he hates from the moment the rider dies, so in my opinion yes it can reroll

WusteGeist
08-04-2009, 07:39
I can not belive that you people are actually even going to look at this like this.
NO the dragon can not reroll failed to hits, because its not the first round of combat. No he does not have to give chase if the enemy flees because its not the first turn. Hatred has a very exact effect in the main rule book. The mount gets those effect exactly as described, not some odd ball mumbo jumbo crap you lot are on about.

TheDarkDaff
08-04-2009, 09:34
I can not belive that you people are actually even going to look at this like this.
NO the dragon can not reroll failed to hits, because its not the first round of combat. No he does not have to give chase if the enemy flees because its not the first turn. Hatred has a very exact effect in the main rule book. The mount gets those effect exactly as described, not some odd ball mumbo jumbo crap you lot are on about.

If we follow your strict reading of the rules as above then you get the situation where a unit charges into an existing combat it will not get re-rolls for hatred because it isn't the first round of the combat.

Alternatively you could argue that the the new unit charging in makes it an entirely new combat so all units with Hatred get their re-rolls again?

I like Spirit's response of use common sence and if it is the first round of combat with Hatred available then apply it (i would ignore the Screaming Bell FAQ).

EvC
08-04-2009, 11:52
I can not belive that you people are actually even going to look at this like this.
NO the dragon can not reroll failed to hits, because its not the first round of combat. No he does not have to give chase if the enemy flees because its not the first turn. Hatred has a very exact effect in the main rule book. The mount gets those effect exactly as described, not some odd ball mumbo jumbo crap you lot are on about.

Calm down there sonny. While you are right that the dragon cannot re-roll his attacks, if he has hatred, he does have to pursue, no matter what round it is. Still, if he gains hatred he is also gaining frenzy so would have two reasons to do it ;)

Nicha11
08-04-2009, 12:59
I not some odd ball mumbo jumbo crap you lot are on about.


Probably not the best way to get your point across there mate;)

eyeolas
08-04-2009, 13:20
It is the same as getting hatred from the skaven bell, no matter when you get your hatred, it still has to be the first round of that combat for it to be useable

Spirit
08-04-2009, 13:33
I can not belive that you people are actually even going to look at this like this.
NO the dragon can not reroll failed to hits, because its not the first round of combat. No he does not have to give chase if the enemy flees because its not the first turn. Hatred has a very exact effect in the main rule book. The mount gets those effect exactly as described, not some odd ball mumbo jumbo crap you lot are on about.

YES, he does have to chase.

And if you're so sure about the rules, why does the empire FAQ contradict you?

Stop being a dick.

Ganymede
08-04-2009, 13:44
It is the same as getting hatred from the skaven bell, no matter when you get your hatred, it still has to be the first round of that combat for it to be useable

But what about the hatred gained from martyring flagellants? You can't just selectively ignore that tidbit of information.

Grimgormx
08-04-2009, 14:37
Ok, Im with spirit, hate only works in the first round of combat, but that dragon didnt hate anything in the first round.

So when is rider dies, the creature starts hatting, so that would be the first round of hate because the rule just pup in...

so it is the first round with hate.

The monsters is suposed to star hatting the killers of his master, so it doesnt makes any sense to wait until the dragon starts a new combat.

" oh darn you just killed my little budy, I grow with him, now I hate you guys, but I will wait until I can really hate you because its not my first round of combat, so everithing is rigth with you guys, dont fear me, I dont really hate you... yet... but beware if you run then I dont catch you, and then you reform, and I can charge you, then you will have to be really afraid of me because then I will really hate you"

I dont see a dragon thinking all this when is master is killed....

Sorry for the spelling, English isnt my natural language.

Lord Yawgmoth
08-04-2009, 14:53
To give my two cents, (mind you this is only my opinion) I think the mount would re-roll to hit that turn.

Although it really could go either way depending if you want to follow the Skaven FAQ or Empire FAQ (as was pointed out by stripsteak and others). I would seriously consider working it out with your gaming group.

40kdhs
08-04-2009, 16:30
Ok, Im with spirit, hate only works in the first round of combat, but that dragon didnt hate anything in the first round.

So when is rider dies, the creature starts hatting, so that would be the first round of hate because the rule just pup in...

so it is the first round with hate.



I saidit to my opponent but he disagreed because it was NOT 'first turn'. I let it go because i didn't want to argue for re-rolls.

eyeolas
08-04-2009, 16:35
Do martyring flagelants have a special rule that means whenever they gain hatred it counts as the first round of combat? Its not in their book, but is it FaQed or something, because otherwise I'd say they have the same issue and hence don't get to re roll unless it is the first round of the combat

stripsteak
08-04-2009, 17:18
Do martyring flagelants have a special rule that means whenever they gain hatred it counts as the first round of combat? Its not in their book, but is it FaQed or something, because otherwise I'd say they have the same issue and hence don't get to re roll unless it is the first round of the combat

it's in their FAQ

Grimgormx
08-04-2009, 19:04
SO they sacrifice some loonys and they get hatred, so that would be their first combat with hate. makes sense.

I these cases, I think, hate must work even if you are not in the first round of combat, because you have to be in combat for hate to happend. (unles dragon rider dies by shooting or magic).

Screaming bell can be used even if they arent in CC, so it has to be cast before they engage or the first turn they engage, so skavens players cant abuse of it, this effect could happend multiple times (with luck)

Different answers for similar FAQs.

Witchblade
08-04-2009, 21:45
Since the FAQs contradict each other, I'd say roll a die.

Zoolander
08-04-2009, 21:55
Yes, the dragon would, as he is just now gaining hatred. If he had the hatred in the first two turns of combat, then the answer would be no. The rule "only on the first turn of combat" really means the first turn of combat that hatred is present. In other words, it only works for one round.

WLBjork
09-04-2009, 03:48
There's an easy out - the Empire Q&A with regard to Flagellants referenced here is wrong (as in, it contradicts the rules without justification). :D

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 11:13
I don't have my rulebook at hand but can someone please quote from it what the definition of the first round of combat is? That will hopefully settle things

Griefbringer
09-04-2009, 11:40
I don't recall there being any formal definition of the first round of combat in the rulebook.

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 13:29
that or look in the hatred rule, it might say something along the lines of 'the first round in any combat they are engaged', or something along those lines which would seem prety clear to be the first round they are engaged, not the first round they have hatred