PDA

View Full Version : Cairn Wraiths where is the Love?



Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 17:33
Did a search and found that all the Cairn Wraith treads are all 1 year or older so hope you don't mind me starting this one :)

Anyway iv seen that a few people aren't so keen on using Cairn Wraiths anymore. And i was left feeling a bit in the dark why is this? Is it because of the DoC, or something completely different?

I almost always have a unit of four, they do a ton of damage to enemy units, they can move through any kind of terrain without penalty, they have M6 which can never be lowered by spells and such. Overall i see them as one of the best units in game so i felt like showing them some love :)

I'd like to hear other players views on them and also tactics they use.

My main tactics are to keep them out of a magic users way until combat using terrain and by summoning zombies to screen them. Iv also had a bit of fun with them and a BsB with Spectral Form oh the fun :D

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 17:38
I enjoy taking a vampire w/ the Ethereal Vamp power and putting them in a large unit of say 4-5 wraiths and 1 Banshee w/ the vamp and IoN to "protect" them they're beaters, and w/ Vanhels getting charges and striking 1st w/ Great weapons at 5 Str they're really Flexible and win combats alot. i like them too but since they gave us Blood Knights i find it hard Points wise to fit both in.and if i gotta choose 1 its normally the BK's.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 17:41
I always had a unit of 6 but now they are doing worse and worse.

First vampires come out, then WoC with their magical knights and magical puke, and not lizards with the evil piranah blade and EotG. Add on top that people are learning to give their characters magic weapons and wraiths are in some trouble.

Sure they have 3 str 5 attacks and two wounds, but with T 3 and no save they can fade away in a heart beat and then you either have to throw everything into raising them again or let an expensive unit die.

I'm now looking at keeping them at 3 with a banshee and using them in a minor support role.

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 17:43
WoC poses a definite threat against WoC i say leave them at home.But against the EoTG there really isnt anything that hurts them.Its not a magical OR flaming attack and banshees can really put a hurt on a stegadon.2d6+2 take wounds = to what they rolled over their LD 6 seems pretty good to me.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 17:45
WoC poses a definite threat against WoC i say leave them at home.But against the EoTG there really isnt anything that hurts them.Its not a magical OR flaming attack and banshees can really put a hurt on a stegadon.2d6+2 take wounds = to what they rolled over their LD 6 seems pretty good to me.

That is REALLY debatable, and with it happening in the magic phase the magical part of it is fairly solid (or as solid gets with something so debatable).

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 17:46
also w/ the sheer number of dispel dice VC armies get my 2250 gets 7 +1 w/ periapt and 2 dispel scrolls. you can stop alot of magic that goes their way.BUT as malorian said i think that there not as strong as they used to be.and really only find room for them when I know the army im facing will have fast cav or flying screeners to draw my BK's off course

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 17:50
i agree that its debatable I believe that they intended it to be magical but as per the rules as it stands right now just because something happens in the magic phase doesnt make it magical.unless it says bound spell or spell it is not magical.when the FAQ is updated or errata comes out i fully expect it to be magical or more likely Both magical and flaming.but for the moment its not.(and yes i feel a swift dose of punchinthefaceacillin coming on) but it wasnt my argument originally and i do believe that you have to play w/ the rules as they are at the given time.) But definitly look for that to change later as it will be magical.

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 18:00
TBPH i just dont know what im going to do against EotG AFTER they errata it either. guess its gonna be BK's or GG' w/ vamps in there. and thats sub optimal for sure. guess u could always try a Black coach out. Havent played one yet under the new rules but it looks fun once it gets flying.meh i'll probably just get wrecked by EotG

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 18:21
I can see that there is a fair amount of magic in the world of warhammer but most of it is easily avoided if you ask me. Their movement abilities are fantastic they can get away from combats which are going to cause them pain.

I guess i just don't really understand why people are so worried about the odd unit here and there that can hurt them. Makes the game more fun keeping them out of harms way and then smashing an enemy unit in a single turn :angel: They would be no fun if nothing could hurt them apart from the odd hero.

Keller
06-04-2009, 18:22
I like Wraiths, but don't take them all that often. Magic attacks have become very common for a lot of armies, so their protection is easily negated in a lot of games. In my experience, armies can either do nothing but hope to win CR against them, or they have plenty than can hurt the Wraiths and don't even bother with them. Frankly, I don't really like having an invincible unit out there that just ruins the fun for my opponent, so I usually just leave them at home.

Against certain armies which can hurt them with some things, or can manuever their army to beat them in CR if I'm not careful, they are a lot of fun. All in all, though, I'd rather just have my lone 75 point Banshee's back.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 18:33
i agree that its debatable I believe that they intended it to be magical but as per the rules as it stands right now just because something happens in the magic phase doesnt make it magical.unless it says bound spell or spell it is not magical.when the FAQ is updated or errata comes out i fully expect it to be magical or more likely Both magical and flaming.but for the moment its not.(and yes i feel a swift dose of punchinthefaceacillin coming on) but it wasnt my argument originally and i do believe that you have to play w/ the rules as they are at the given time.) But definitly look for that to change later as it will be magical.

A common arguement is that no where does it say that magical weapons actually grant magical attacks (with the exception of the few magical weapons that specify that they do).

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 18:38
didnt know that but I will always play that magical weapons generate magical attacks.I'm not a cheap player i actually wonder if the EotG was intentionally not given magical or flaming attacks simply for the reason u could run 2 EotG's in a 2250 army.Im not gonna say magical weapons dont count as magic attacks because thats wrong in spirit.But im not sure what the designers had in mind for EotG since they added so many ways to get flaming attacks now.I really dont think they would have overlooked how much regeneration they have added in 7th edition thats all.And it hasnt been an issue in my shop since everyone including the Lizardmen players agree that they arent magical or flaming either.

Malorian
06-04-2009, 18:43
Fair enough, I'm just trying to point out that it's not so clear cut.

In your area have you been seeing a lot of scar vets on cold ones with the piranah blade?

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 19:26
Fair enough, I'm just trying to point out that it's not so clear cut.

In your area have you been seeing a lot of scar vets on cold ones with the piranah blade?


yes........

Malorian
06-04-2009, 19:29
Nasty aren't they ;)

PARTYCHICORITA
06-04-2009, 19:39
Since we are here: Can an ethereal Vampire lord take the avatar of death power? Rules say he can't take magic items but both the heavy armor and the shield/aditional weapon/great weapon are mundane.

Ravenousone2
06-04-2009, 19:48
what that rule means is he cant take any magic items from the army book he can still spend points on the vampiric powers so yes he can take avatar of death and get the armour save

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 20:31
Since we are here: Can an ethereal Vampire lord take the avatar of death power? Rules say he can't take magic items but both the heavy armor and the shield/aditional weapon/great weapon are mundane.

If the Vampire Lord has Spectral Form he may also Have Avatar of Death as the equipment isn't magical :)

Spirit
06-04-2009, 21:24
Since we are here: Can an ethereal Vampire lord take the avatar of death power? Rules say he can't take magic items but both the heavy armor and the shield/aditional weapon/great weapon are mundane.

If your willing to waste all those points on an ethereal lord when you can just have a normal vamp with ethereal and a bsb. Still has 3S5 attacks and still kills most things the wraiths go for. And means you have to lose a combat by 2 to start taking wounds on the unit AND gives you +1 static CR to help stop you losing combats!

But yes, he can have avatar of death and spectral form for 70 (!) points. But i feel thats the last thing i would want to spend on a vampire lord!

Malorian
06-04-2009, 21:27
I've played around with a Lvl3 lord that is ethereal and master of the black arts. This is larger games where the other is a summoner and then this one can go up with the wraiths and cast fun spells like curse of years and gaze of nagash.

It's done ok, but the unit is usually the target of something big and nasty.

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 22:18
Playing around with vampires and Spectral Form is always a bit of fun :)

Tho how many of you chaps would use wraiths in tournaments. Like iv said i almost always us them as i find them to useful to leave the mushroom without.

Spirit
06-04-2009, 22:26
Playing around with vampires and Spectral Form is always a bit of fun :)

Tho how many of you chaps would use wraiths in tournaments. Like iv said i almost always us them as i find them to useful to leave the mushroom without.

Problem with tournaments is that if you fight daemons, lizards (depending on the EOTG ruling) or wood elves your going to be in for a very tough time.

Most of the time a varghulf is a batter choice.

At my lgs however, i have stopped using wraiths completely as they make the games too easy. People just dont seem to be able to handle fast hard hitting things that cant be killed, keep them out of line of sight for a turn and your more than likely to make their points back and them some with very little effort (helm of command with them is brutal)

Classical Mushroom
06-04-2009, 22:41
Problem with tournaments is that if you fight daemons, lizards (depending on the EOTG ruling) or wood elves your going to be in for a very tough time.

Most of the time a varghulf is a batter choice.

At my lgs however, i have stopped using wraiths completely as they make the games too easy. People just dont seem to be able to handle fast hard hitting things that cant be killed, keep them out of line of sight for a turn and your more than likely to make their points back and them some with very little effort (helm of command with them is brutal)

I think that Daemons might be one of the problems as from my experience VC and DoC seem to be the top two dogs of warhammer. As such i feel a lot of Vampire players are a bit put off wraiths because the whole daemon army have magic attacks. :cries:

Zoolander
06-04-2009, 23:08
I don't know about anyone else, but I find that the wraiths are fantastic against every army except the Daemons, really. They tend to cause fear in my opponents! I tihnk a lot of people fear them so much, they devote a lot of time trying to kill them, which in itself is a benefit. Last game I played the banshee killed a mage by screaming and the unit caused a unit of knights to run off the table. Points well spent if you ask me!

Spirit
07-04-2009, 00:18
I don't know about anyone else, but I find that the wraiths are fantastic against every army except the Daemons, really. They tend to cause fear in my opponents! I tihnk a lot of people fear them so much, they devote a lot of time trying to kill them, which in itself is a benefit. Last game I played the banshee killed a mage by screaming and the unit caused a unit of knights to run off the table. Points well spent if you ask me!

Thats why i dont use them, no daemon players in my Lgs so people get bored of not being able to handle them.

As much as i want to tell them to learn to play, vamps have enough going for them atm.

Keller
07-04-2009, 00:40
I don't know about anyone else, but I find that the wraiths are fantastic against every army except the Daemons, really. They tend to cause fear in my opponents! I tihnk a lot of people fear them so much, they devote a lot of time trying to kill them, which in itself is a benefit. Last game I played the banshee killed a mage by screaming and the unit caused a unit of knights to run off the table. Points well spent if you ask me!

Exactly. As I said before, atleast in my experience, armies either can't handle them or have no problem at all with Wraiths. Against my common foes within my group:

TK: Pretty much no chance against the Wraiths. Their Magic missile can hurt them, but little else can. Just stay clear of Tomb Guard and there is nothing to worry about. I use them to tie up and kill Ushabti with little problems.

Wood Elves - Tons of Forest Spirits, typically, which slaughter Wraiths. If they have mostly elves, its a very easy battle for the Wraiths.

Dwarves - Their runed up warmachines can be problematic, but rarely can kill more than 1 Wraith per turn. Again, they are usually a solid buy.

Beast Men - They can't do a thing against the Wraiths.

High Elves - If my opponent loads up on mages and I have poor defense, they kill the wraiths. If their magic is lacking, or not better than mine, my Wraiths are fine.

Bretonnians - Wraiths are great, just mind the Grail Knights.

Orcs - can do little against the Wraiths w/o loads of spell casting.

Demons - Slaughter Wraiths in droves.


As it is, Wriaths either are absolutely worthless, or make the game far too easy. As such, I rarely take them for more than the Terror effect and Banshee Howl. All in all, I miss my solo-banshees.

Darkangeldentist
07-04-2009, 01:32
Wraiths are one of the best units Vampires have. The only problem I have with them is the difficulty in re-raising them back. To make the unit big enough to take casualties (from spells or magical attacks) it's going to cost a lot. 6 or 7 plus banshee.

Ideally you'd also have a corpse cart with unholy lodestone trying to stay close enough to support. (Two wounds a casting and always strike first are just a wonderful combo.) However these points are rather prohibitive in smaller games or tournament lists. It's just too much in one basket when you've got to invest in several other areas first.

I thinks Wraiths are ok against every army except daemons and even then, if you buy a very big unit I think they'll stand a chance.

Against engines of the gods there is a simple answer, kill the priest. Ok you might argue how but just consider a few things. The burning alignment has a random range that will only just equal the charge distance of your wraiths. So your opponent should have problems getting it into position. Second wraiths have enough decent strength attacks to make even the protection from the howdah highly unreliable. I believe you can always direct attacks towards the crew or characters which would include the priest. With a big unit you needn't even get the banshee in base contact thus stopping cheeky challenges. Finally they've got crappy Ld so march up and scream at the begger. A decent roll and maybe some magical direct damge and you'll likely kill the stegadon stone dead, or the priest depending on luck.

Against Daemons and forest spirits? I think people are just too used to them being invulnerable to enemy attacks. Assuming you buy a big unit you stand a decent chance of winning combats provided you're not fighitng static combat res as well.

Of course big units make for big targets and that can be a problem in itself.

I've had a lot of fun with wraiths and think they can kill off just about anything but only if you remember how frail they can be. Being invulnerable so much of the time it's easy to forget. (Ok maybe a bloodthirster would be beyond them no matter what but not much else.)

I'd certainly consider them a fair match for blood knights, cheaper, more controllable, often more resilient against many foes and more flexible.

The Red Scourge
07-04-2009, 08:19
My rare slots usually go with wraiths and a black coach.

I keep my wraiths without a banshee, as I don't need a full hand to count how many models she has killed, also I find that she is a liability, when the unit ends up fighting a lone hero with a magic weapon.


...With a big unit you needn't even get the banshee in base contact thus stopping cheeky challenges.

You will always move your characters (including command) to the front line in a skirmish unit.

havoc626
07-04-2009, 09:03
I can remember a little while back, I used a friend's VC army, making it into a themed etheral list.

Yeah, having 10 Wraiths with a Vampire character (using 2 squads of ghouls for the core) at 1000pts might have been a little unfair against a hoard of Night Goblins...

Classical Mushroom
07-04-2009, 16:07
I have to say I'm happy to hear that there are some players who don't play them because they think their as amazing as i do :)

I still don't quite understand why people think their useless against DoC tho. I know they have magical attacks but still they are fast enough to get away and can get out of LoS. True they won't have such a staring role but they can easily support the other units with a flank charge. With 3 Str 5 attacks their still gunna splat a fair few daemons :D







I can remember a little while back, I used a friend's VC army, making it into a themed etheral list.

Yeah, having 10 Wraiths with a Vampire character (using 2 squads of ghouls for the core) at 1000pts might have been a little unfair against a hoard of Night Goblins...

Thats so mean........ wish i thought of that! :cries:

Malorian
07-04-2009, 16:32
I still don't quite understand why people think their useless against DoC tho. I know they have magical attacks but still they are fast enough to get away and can get out of LoS. True they won't have such a staring role but they can easily support the other units with a flank charge. With 3 Str 5 attacks their still gunna splat a fair few daemons :D

Notice how a big part of this is hiding...


When I first play against deamons with them I was able to use them as a good counter charge, but now my opponent's know about them and they never fall for those tricks any more. Instead they just blast them with magic or charge them :cries:

Classical Mushroom
07-04-2009, 16:34
Notice how a big part of this is hiding...

Well i like to call it tactics but hey :p