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Babolat360
06-04-2009, 22:30
Hello,

Saruman
Khamul (I would be very grateful if someone could clear up how essence leach works exactly)
4 phalanx companies, captain, musician
4 swordsmen companies, banner [Khamul]
2 crossbowmen companies
1 berserker company [Saruman]
Ballista/ Grima (which one?)

Thoughts?

Thanks

backslide
07-04-2009, 00:01
you can get them as allies yes, but khaml just does not feel remotly right in a Isengard force

I would be very carful with putting saruman in such a small formation agreed it hits hard, but as its only one company 12 hits and they are off the table taking him with them...

I would get some wargs for mobility

Axis
07-04-2009, 01:29
Wargs for mobility look good and personally i would try fit an isenguard troll in there, they are very powerful.

Babolat360
07-04-2009, 08:07
Thanks for the replies so far!

I want to include khamul mainly because he is very fun and has wings of terror so can make my big swordsmen unit fly.

12 hits? Aren't berserkers R2 and indomitable, meaning that all of them would have to be wiped out? I also want to include Saruman in the unit because he can bring back dead berserkers with the command lore!

I would really like to include a troll, but all my opponents normally load up on warmachines and epic heroes designed to take them down.

Thanks

Axis
07-04-2009, 09:51
Personally i'd take wormtongue over the ballista because his rules are so characterful.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 10:58
I'd take the ballista - Wormtongue may be characterful and fun, but he's really a gimmick - he's useless against certain armies, or at least almost irrelevant because their stats are so high anyway, whereas no one likes being shot.

Be very, very wary about putting Saruman in a combat unit - the second I see that, I'm gonna be challenging him, even with just a captain, and he will die, and I will laugh, for I am a bad, bad man.

Axis
07-04-2009, 11:04
I disagree that he is a gimmick though. -2 courage is quite high. It'll send elves to 3.. against humans it'll send them to courage 1 a lot of the time (this is before we put heroes in units so probably add 1 to each of those). I don't think you want to scoff at that.

To give some percetages even if he is in a unit with gil-galad or elendil or someone in it he is dropping their courage by 33%!!!

-1 fight also means that you get more hits on them and they get less on you.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 11:12
Heh, anyone who runs elves without a captain or hero in the unit deserves everything they get.

-1 fight will, against elite armies, merely make you break even, at best. Against horde armies such as orcs and goblins, they'll be getting most of their attacks from supporting units and just raw numbers, instead of fight value, so its needless there.

On the other hand, the ballista can knock a trolls head off in one shot, or severely deplete enemy companies - which will give you far more attacks than Wormtongue, and can't be lost on an enemy courage test of a double.

Babolat360
07-04-2009, 11:52
Be very, very wary about putting Saruman in a combat unit - the second I see that, I'm gonna be challenging him, even with just a captain, and he will die, and I will laugh, for I am a bad, bad man.

I see where you're coming from, but the way I see it, all my units will be aiming to be in combat anyway, most things want to avoid berserkers and with Saruman in their unit they can come back to life!!!!

takaetun
07-04-2009, 11:56
Until they get into combat, and Saruman dies. :p He should be put in a fairly big unit where he can do his worst, and if charged, the captain beside him, or Lurtz, or Vashnu, etc, can challenge and take the heat off him.

Axis
07-04-2009, 12:00
Even with a hero or captain you are down to courage 4. That is a pretty big drop. Dropping from pretty much pass all the time to failing a quarter of the time.

Courage 6 is 91.6% chance to pass
Courage 4 is 72.2% chance to pass

The difference isn't to be scoffed at.

Babolat360
07-04-2009, 12:00
Am I correct in thinking that a hero who issues a duel gets to pick who he/she fights? So Saruman will get picked out no matter what unit he's in.

Axis
07-04-2009, 12:00
Even with a hero or captain you are down to courage 4. That is a pretty big drop. Dropping from pretty much pass all the time to failing a quarter of the time.

Courage 6 is 91.6% chance to pass
Courage 4 is 72.2% chance to pass

The difference isn't to be scoffed at.

takaetun
07-04-2009, 12:03
Saruman will get picked out, unless the hero next to him issues the challenge first. Berserkers, unfortuantely, cannot have heroes.

This might just be me, but I think I'd prefer to fail 20% more Courage tests than lost a two hundred and forty point model...

Axis
07-04-2009, 12:11
This might just be me, but I think I'd prefer to fail 20% more Courage tests than lost a two hundred and forty point model...

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here. In fact i'm quite confused.

Vampiric16
15-04-2009, 18:26
Lose Khamel and take Lurtz or someone else who actually comes from Isengard. I doubt he would come all the way from the east to serve under someone who is plotting against his master.
I would take the ballista, but thats down to personal preferance.
Put Saruman in a crossbow unit. That way he can avoid combat.
Other than that its a well rounded force that will hit hard. Perhaps look into wargs and scouts for mobility and guarding your flanks.

Sarah S
15-04-2009, 19:28
Saruman will get picked out, unless the hero next to him issues the challenge first. Berserkers, unfortuantely, cannot have heroes.

Even if the hero next to him issues the challenge first, chances are the enemy will survive to complete his challenge against Saruman.

Multiple Heroic Duels can be fought per phase, as long as the individuals involved are still alive at the time you would resolve them.

Crovax20
15-04-2009, 19:37
Trust me saruman will get a heroic duel on his head. You can however move him to a different formation within 18 inch in the movement phase each time. So you could theoretically have him move with the beserkers and then before charges will be made make him jump to a different more safer unit like cavalry, which are more unlikely to get charged since they got a longer charge distance themselves. Next movement phase you could then move him in a crossbow unit by example.

Babolat360
15-04-2009, 21:53
Trust me saruman will get a heroic duel on his head. You can however move him to a different formation within 18 inch in the movement phase each time. So you could theoretically have him move with the beserkers and then before charges will be made make him jump to a different more safer unit like cavalry, which are more unlikely to get charged since they got a longer charge distance themselves. Next movement phase you could then move him in a crossbow unit by example.

This is exactly what I do. I start with Saruman in the unit and march them up as quickly as possible, resurrecting casualties from shooting along the way. I then move him out into a nearby unit in the turn i'm going to charge with them only if the enemy formation has a hero (with might) in it. Absolutely immense.

skallagrimsson
16-04-2009, 15:39
saruman in the same formation as Lurtz. If you think it likely that saruman will be called for a duel then use a point of might from Lurtz and bingo saruman is F 10 - not so easy to kill and with an R of 3. Also remember if that nasty hero is getting close then Lurtz can kneecap him reducing the heros R by 1.

Sarah S
16-04-2009, 16:00
skallagrimsson, I don't think you can do that.
For my thoughts on the matter, please see:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3478111#post3478111

Babolat360
16-04-2009, 17:29
Yes, I am quite certain that heroes fighting in duels can only use their own fight value. Am I also right in thinking that only one duel can occur per engagement?

Sarah S
16-04-2009, 17:32
No, I don't believe so since page 67 specifically says:

Once the Heroic Duel has been resolved, the fight continues as normal. Any Heroes that have survived the duel lend their Fight and Courage values to their companies as normal. Indeed, if two or more Heroes declared Heroic Duels at the start of the phase, another duel will be fought (assuming that the Hero in question wasn't slain of course).

Babolat360
16-04-2009, 18:00
So is it a roll-off if both heroes want to duel each other (to decide who gets to use might to get the +1 in the duel)?

Thanks

Babolat360
16-04-2009, 18:07
And also, is it possible for 2 heros to issue a duel against the same enemy hero? In which case which duel goes first?

Thanks

Jorgen_CAB
16-04-2009, 18:08
In the fight phase if you want to use any might you roll-of and see which side can nominate a hero first. You then take turns and nominate each hero that want's to perform an action in that phase. Once every hero has decided what they want to do you resolve every action in that same order.

So if my hero call for a duel before you call the epic strike, then you will not be able to use the epic strike in that duel. Likewise could I call for a Heroic fight and actually not be engaged with you when your hero call epic strike and duel because we are no longer in contact with each other. You can make heroes burn Might that can't be used that way, or simply threaten them to not use it and destroy his unit in combat instead.

At least that is how I interpreted the rules.

Sarah S
16-04-2009, 18:14
That's mostly correct, except for the bit about Heroic Fights.

Duels and Epic Strength/Strike etc. are resolved at the start of the Fight Phase.

Heroic Fight just forces that Hero's combat to be fought before the other combats that turn.

Jorgen_CAB
16-04-2009, 18:58
I don't interpret the rules that way... if you look at page 66 and 67.

I just re-read that section, and nowhere does it say anything other than that you resolve each action before going to the next. Thus it is possible to cancel another heroes action with the result of the action before it.
That is what it says in the text. Nowhere can I see that the Duel is resolved before a Heroic Fight, they are both declared and resolved in order that you declared them.
They are both declared at the start of the Fight phase and resolved at the start of the fight phase before other combats in the order that each hero stated his action.

That is one additional type of tactics that you can apply...

Jorgen_CAB
16-04-2009, 20:14
Ah, it seems as if you are right, the Heroic Fight is might be performed after the Duel... but the text really is not telling me that very clearly. In the examples on the GW site it is implied that using a Duel and kill the hero before the combat will cancel the Heroic Fight.

But I'm not fully convinced, because the Duel could actually be issued before the Heroic Fight.

skallagrimsson
17-04-2009, 19:58
skallagrimsson, I don't think you can do that.
For my thoughts on the matter, please see:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3478111#post3478111

Agree - it was my mix up oon what i believed Epic Strike did at the time of writing. My bad. Just have Lurtz call a heroic duel after and seek revenge for the slight against Saruman (if he is still alive).