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The Anarchist
07-04-2009, 18:33
i was playing a few games today at my local store and wasn't suprised when i saw a izardmen army with Slann; however i was suprised that the Slann jsut didnt seem to be that great in the magic phase. whats happened? they just seem to have been a bit sub standard, not that much better than Empire Wizard-Lord, but a fair wack more points.

it also seemed strange to me that the Slann can only use the lores of magic, yet these are considered the simplified magic that was sutible for the less inteligent speicies like mankind. so why is it the Slann don't get a magic lore of their own, i mean there is room in the rulebook, and all the other armies seem to be getting their own lore; i mean daemons got three lores!

so whats going on, and furthermore am i missing something with the Slann as mages?

Malorian
07-04-2009, 18:35
Well you don't have the gatling slann anymore, but at the same that went WAY down in points (assuming you don't go silly on upgrades).

A simply slann with an extra dice will typically get more done than other mages of the same cost.

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2009, 18:48
They lost +1 to cast and dispel, as well as being able to choose a heap of magic missles from a bunch of different lores.

In return they got a notable points decrease, which resulted in them being a damn sight more cost effective in terms of magical ability and trickiness to kill than any other mage in the game.
300pts for a 5 wound t4 us3 model, with a 4+ ward who is a level 4 mage who can throw a free dice at any spell as well as being a BsB on cold blooded leadership 9.
Who can sit in the second rank of a unit and still cast.

Slann are still brutal.

N810
07-04-2009, 18:49
Well Slan also lost their generation upgrades...
the Slan we have in out current boo would be the equivilent of
a 4th or 5th generation on the old book (2nd was the most powerfull)
but at least they don't take up a lord, hero, and rare slot any more.
also they cost a bit less. where we lost in offensive power, we seemed to
gain in defensive power, also in the ability to know all the spells from one
lore helps to make spell selection a lot less random.

you still can get the +1 to cast but lost the +1 to dispell...
another perk is now having all the advantages of being a large target with the disadvantages,
as well as now being able to get a "look out sir" roll due to decreced unit size.

Shamfrit
07-04-2009, 18:52
Points mostly covered already, but also, a Slann is a massive anvil. Stubborn LD8 with Re-roll Temple Guard are virtually unbreakable, and with Channeling your Slann has excellent reach. Defensive and offensive magic, perfectly balanced into a single model. He can cast 4 spells a turn relatively easy and maintain 6 dispel dice on his own... Not many things can do that for less than 400 points, that's for certain.

The Anarchist
07-04-2009, 19:02
They lost +1 to cast and dispel, as well as being able to choose a heap of magic missles from a bunch of different lores.

In return they got a notable points decrease, which resulted in them being a damn sight more cost effective in terms of magical ability and trickiness to kill than any other mage in the game.
300pts for a 5 wound t4 us3 model, with a 4+ ward who is a level 4 mage who can throw a free dice at any spell as well as being a BsB on cold blooded leadership 9.
Who can sit in the second rank of a unit and still cast.

Slann are still brutal.

whilst i can see and do agree that Slann seem to ahve picked up as army leaders, and can really add to a unit of temple gaurd as a top class anvil. they have been weakend in the area they should be strongest; magic. at the moment i would say dark elves, high elves, daemons and at times Empire outclass the lizardmen at magic; this jsut seems a bit mad.

whilst the availble additions to the slann make them very durable and usefull, they don't ahve anything to really make them masters of magic.

theunwantedbeing
07-04-2009, 19:11
I dont see how knowing all 6 spells of any of the 8 lores and being ablke to throw an additional powerdice at each spell is somehow "worse" than anything the armies you listed can do.

Empire outclass a slann? How exactly?
They can be level 4 mages....there's nothing to boost their casting ability beyond a +1 to cast (not as good as a free dice), +1 spell (not as good as knowing the entire lore) or gaining upto 3 extra dice saved from the previous phase (still not as good as a free dice per spell).

Dark elves? We can generate upto 10 dice a turn from a single mage (of which 6 of those she must use) Although that mage does cost 305pts, which is 30pts more than a slann with the ability to throw an extra dice at each spell (upto 8 dice a turn).
The extra dice annot be stopped or dispelled, unlike with the above DE mage.

High elves? Book of hoeth, thats the only way they can be better. Nohing they have competes with knowing all the spells and a free dice each spell.

Daemons? Twin heads..+2 to cast for 4 spells, not as good as a free dice per spell.(average roll on a dice is 3.5...3.5 > 2)

So I don't get how you come to the conclusion that they are worse...as going off the above, they are better.

Malorian
07-04-2009, 19:18
So I don't get how you come to the conclusion that they are worse...as going off the above, they are better.

People are just cheesed because they can't gatling slann any more, and the difference in power between the new and old slann makes them think the new one sucks.

It doesn't...

BloodHawk
07-04-2009, 19:27
THe new slann is just different. I struggled originally to understand how they were better, but after play time I have concluded they are miles ahead of where they used to be. The idea is that they support your army and add to your other units.

I generally take lore of beasts, which allows me to cast beast cowers on any monsters, and then use wolf hunts on my War spear ancient stegadon. Those two things will draw multiple scrolls a turn with good dice rolling, which allows my Scar vet to charge with bound steed of shadows. In addition to this the slann's unit is nigh unkillable and will very rarely run from combat.

I played in a 3000 pt. tournament final vs a dark elves. I cast beast cowers 6 turns in a row on his dreadlord on manticore! This meant that he had 500 points not playing in the game. In addition the Slann's unit held 5 turns vs a dark elf black guard unit with 3 heroes (including lord) with +1 attack on the charge and armour piercing weapons. This was only possible due to the slann, and held the game to a tie when my War spear steggie rear charged and broke the unit.

Its all about making the Slann work with the army. By himself he may not be great, but with his support, the army can be amazingly effective.

Vsurma
07-04-2009, 19:32
Things changed somewhat in that before you could run around with a solo slann and as long as there was no pitt of shades coming at you, it was unlikely you would die due to T5 and 8w on a 2nd gen, that said that slann cost 600pts and took up an additional hero and rare slot.

I always used to run a 2nd gen slann and I actually prefer the new setup.

For 340pts you can get a slann that knows 5 spells, gets +1 to cast each spell, is the bsb on ld9 and carries a war banner, it also gets a look out sir AND it takes up 4 slots in the temple guard unit (so you could count a 60pts discount on this account) There is almost no reason not to use the unit as it is!

The unit is great! For the cost of the old slann I now get a unit of temple guard AND the slann, the unit starts with static combat res of 6-7 depending on outnumber and they pack a punch! the slann can cast magic as a large target yet cannot be targeted.

For another 35pts you get all 6 spells instead of 5 ensuring you get what you want.

The other thin is you can now take an engine to augment the slann, downside is your stuck with heavens but it works fairly well with lizards as the default spell makes most of our units about 40% more powerful in combat which is fairly nice, also the priest can take the plaque of tepok for 3 spells. This allows us to have a lv4 AND a lv3 in the same army.

Also the 2 of them put out so many dice when you account for all the slanns free dice that you can spare your 2 other hero slots for other heroes, no need for more magic.

Another decent loadout is just a solo slann with 3 cc heroes. The slann takes 3 stones and a diadam or 5 stones.

This basically gives the slann 8 dice + free dice each turn while using 1 stone. For a single lord slot you basically get about 11-13 dice and will be casting 3-5 spells a turn, from 1 model! I can live with that!

The Anarchist
07-04-2009, 19:36
ok maybe outclass was the wrong word to sue, however Slann are no longer a dominant magic army, an the phrase gatling Slann might be apt. my point is Slann should be able to equally these other armies in popping up unleashing fire-y death.
whilst i appreciate the ability to know all six spells, a fair few armies have the choice with magic items to choose their spells.
Empire dosn't beat the slann mage wise, but they can get a Lord elvel mage and hero level mage for similar points wise to a slann.
Dark elves you made a set of good points, wont contest in the sligtest; however their lore of magic can dish out a fair bit of pain, and get them soem extra power dice to inflict extra pain.
High elves, book of hoeth is mad, wont even bring that up. however their lore does dish out some damage, help their archers, and real damage your opponents magic. added to this they have a very good selection of anoying bound magic items.

whilst slann cna save dice, and add that bit extra punch to their spells, but they can't dish out the level of damage i would expect form the greatest mages on the earth since the old ones left. and to add to this i still cant udnerstand how their are bound to the 8 simple lores of magic deemed simple enough for man, but crude for the elves (particularly as the slann taught the elves, anyone else see a contradiction here?)

Malorian
07-04-2009, 19:45
Anarchist, I think you're looking too much into the fluff and not enough into the actual game play.

By fluff a player that has Kroak in their army should just basically win against regular armies, and yet we all know that isn't the case as the game still needs to work.

However Slann are still amazing spell casters which other armies would love to have access to.

N810
07-04-2009, 19:47
Our Slann special characters do at least get some unique spells...

also worth mentioning is that Slann are more geared to countering magic
with the abilites to:

transfer miscast
make enimy mages in range stupid
make enimy mages in range 6's not count for casting (dice)
shield that reflect magic missles

you get the idea...

W0lf
07-04-2009, 19:51
Slaan are brilliant in the new incarnation, so much cheaper.

The rest of the lizardmen magic however drags the Lizards magic power down. They cant compete with the likes of WoC/Daemons/Vampires for magical superiority.

Shamfrit
07-04-2009, 19:52
If you want to look at the Fluff Anarchist, please read all the Fluff. The details regarding 'Daemon dominating' Slann are in direct reference to the 1st Generation Slann, of which only one remiains, Kroak. The Second Generation are also dying out, and the 'Slann' you wield in a normal army are 4th/5th generation, and as detailed in the Lizardmen book, they are powerful spell casters but noting of their earlier kin.

jax40kplyr1
07-04-2009, 19:56
I think everyone has hit the head pretty much on the points cost vs old edition. With the highest LD in the lizardmen list as well, coupled with ItP temple guard and BSB abilities, Slann fit the fluff and game mechanics of the new edition perfectly. The focus became much more of the spear armed, large blocks of saurus. Throw in the LD 9 coldblooded - lizards are very hard to move, especially formed up around an immovable, stubborn center. Throw in some skinks flanking the sides, a steg or two running on the flanks - good combinations.
My only gripe with them was that they did not come up with a Slann lore, much like all of the other new races. High value costs, but spectacular results would have been cool and fluffy.
Example: Rain of fire 13+ to cast. All enemy units on the table take d6 Str 4 flaming (Str 5 if undead or daemons) hits, with each unit rolling off (like conflagation of doom) to see if they take further hits.

Feefait
07-04-2009, 20:26
also don't forget with Blessed Cogitation the Slann can shut down any opposing, similarly hey may not be overwhelming you with spells every turn, but theor defese and effectiveness went way up. I'll take cogitation over +1 to dd any day.

Ultimo ninja
07-04-2009, 20:28
Slann rock. One of the best models and choices in the entire game. If i have to face a slann with tg with my woc army, I know I will have to work very hard to kill it off, because its pretty hard to ignore a slanns magic, and the tg are hard in combat, so either you avoid it and get magicked hard, or attack it in an extremely bloody battle of attrition.

Units like this are a major reason why im taking a hellcannon. I hope to at least get 1 or 2 decent shots on it to help soften it up a bit. After that a lord on jugger with knights Might be able to kill it....maybe.

Spirit
08-04-2009, 14:27
I never played with them in the old rules.

but with the ability to use 6 dice, which is usually 1+1, 2+1, 3+1 for 9 power dice, then use a power stone once the enemy are out of magic for 2+1 dice (so 12), THEN use the EOTG for 3 dice, THEN use a bound spell THEN use another power stone for the hell of it.

My magic phases have been awesome so far. And thats just with 2 heroes.

On top of this they give every unit within 12" the best LD possible in the game (about LD 10.5) AAANNNDDD they can be the bsb for a nice re roll to the best leadership in the game.

AND they are very very hard to kill (2x 4+ ward saves with 5 wounds or a 2+ ward save vs shooting or immunity to all but magic)

This means the enemy will be very hard pressed to get the 600 odd vp's from them (500 + 100 for killing the general) which makes them very good for points denial. If you know you can feasibly kill all of your opponents 2000 points, but they can only kill 1500 of yours, your at an advantage.

AND (another and...) all of this can be done without spending 300 points on temple guard, which produces even more good things if you have the points!

Slann. Are. Awesome.

Edit: If you want your fancy spells, take the special characters, lord croak is the biggest pile of Stilton since thorek. games boil down to:
a: roll 6 dice,
b: i roll a double 6, your army dies,
c: i roll a double 1
d: if C ever applies, nothing bad happens, we just try again for the remaining 5 turns, untill B is achieved

Vsurma
08-04-2009, 14:40
Kroak does seem a bit cheesy to me, with his ability to roll his spell at the first level over and over and over... Though I prefer the normal slann myself

Ancre
08-04-2009, 18:16
Kroak suffers from the "I only have one spell" though - if a magic item removes it then it loses much of it's interest. But with the fact his power dice are added to the main pool ... yeah you're right he's awfully powerful, especially with a second slann :D

Staurikosaurus
09-04-2009, 07:25
I figured that the best use for Lord Kroak was in tandem with Tetto'eko. Rings in at a hefty 855 for the two of them but gives you 8 PD. Combine that with 2 Engines and you've got a MEAN aoe magic army. Leaves you with only about 300 points for core in 2k but if you want to cheese it up, you could fulfill your core and get in 2 salamanders to boot :p

Would give you a total of 14 PD, 9 DD and an evil magic phase.

Vsurma
09-04-2009, 10:20
Kroak cannot lose his 1 magic spell ever!

How many things can really stand up to kroak, stick him in a unit of TG, charge him into the enemy center, than cast 3-4 all enemy within d6" take 2d6 or was it d6? S4 spells a turn, the enemy is taking alot of damage here.

Its not that fun though, you strategy is the same in every game, get as many units in range as possible and spam that 1 spell over and over. I prefer a normal slanns ability to take different lores at half the price.

You basically get an engine and a slann for the same cost.

That said Kroak is almost impossible to kill in most cases.

Necromancy Black
09-04-2009, 10:39
Having palyed both, I can tell you the new Slann is better then the old Slann. I don't know how you cna possibly say the old Slann was better at magic then the new one as the new ones are so much easy to tool up to be a magic power house.

What has hurt is the lost of spawning and sacred hosts, allowing you to take for destructive lores like metal, fire and death. These lores could add to the damage output or, more importantly, draw out dispel dice and scrolls to let the Slann then lay down the hurt.

Vsurma
09-04-2009, 10:45
Yea its true, though I prefer the damage output of a slann and an engine compared to what we could do before, as it is I don't see any real point in taking more than the slann and an engine as your magic force.

Adding more lv2s with Heaven isn't going to make a huge difference. (personally I am happy with what I get from an Engine and a Slann)

Whitehorn
09-04-2009, 10:57
I use the extra dice and full lore disciplines.

I find that the dice pool is never lacking, but I've had some terrible luck - miscast every turn in one game (level 3 priest and level 4 slann rolling on 2 dice!) but no serious casualties from those yet.

Being with temple Guard, the Slann unit is an anvil. It will sit in combat until every saurus has fallen - never fled to date. While it's tarpitting something, the Slann continues to dominate with his magic!

However, I find myself only using 3-4 spells from a lore at best. Some opponents do not realise you won't be casting 6 spells - which is nice, but anyone with sense will calculate your options and dispel accordingly.

To date I have found Beasts to be the best lore - I used 3 Stegadons, which could be manipulated to charge in the magic phase, also a cheap Scar-veteran with Beast Within is very nasty - tore through 7 TK chariots and a Bone giant in 1 game.

Lore of Light is grand vs the metagame that is Daemons. Flare coupled with an EOTG will simply nuke demon forces!

Griffin
09-04-2009, 11:20
Daemon infantry - The rest won't care.

Vsurma
09-04-2009, 12:14
Won't care? About S6 magical attacks... I think they will.

As the TG will be getting close and personal I like both death and light for their AOE spells, death also has very useful spells all round

Spirit
09-04-2009, 12:31
Kroak cannot lose his 1 magic spell ever!



Why not? Is there a rule i've missed?

Vsurma
09-04-2009, 13:05
Don't have the book on me but I am pretty sure it is located on the kroak page and says that the spell cannot be destroyed or muted.... something like this

Spirit
09-04-2009, 13:08
Just checked, your imagining it I'm afraid.

you might be mixing it up with his ability to never suffer a miscast.

Necromancy Black
09-04-2009, 13:25
Kroak's ability to lose his only spell was pointed out a a rather large flaw from the beginning.

Not so bad if you have another Slann to use up those juicy extra 4 PD that go to your pool.

jax40kplyr1
09-04-2009, 14:58
Only bad if you have an Empire hero flying up near the unit and stealing Kroak's spell with the Casket. Would the hero get to choose the power level of the spell as it goes off?

LKHERO
09-04-2009, 16:47
Lore of Light is grand vs the metagame that is Daemons.

Great Standard of Sundering + Cupped Hands of the Old Ones = funny times.

But only for 1 round.

But other than that, don't take Lore of Light.

neXus6
09-04-2009, 16:56
Yeah there are only about 3 items in the whole game that can steal/destroy spells if I remember correctly so it's not THAT much of a threat unless you are playing one of the races who can do it, and even then they usually aren't 100% effective.

Kroak in a large unit of TempleGuard with an Engine shielding it makes for easily the most effective deathstars in the game, it is nigh on unkillable and it will just keep blasting out spheres of magic.

LKHERO
09-04-2009, 18:21
I use a Slann BSB w/ War Banner, 3 Disciplines (+1 die, know all spells, enemy wizard loses 6s), Bane Head and 2x Power Stones.

My 2x EotGs have 1 Scroll, 1 Blood Statue.