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Nu Fenix
07-04-2009, 20:08
Now that my book has *finally* arrived, and that the Fallen Realms are the main force I have been drooling over, I felt I would give my own review of the army.

I won't give a score for the units, as some things are hard to value, and I would want to avoid giving something a perfect score in case something proved to be even better, which would only lower my maximum score otherwise.

None of this is based on actual playing, solely on personal interpretation and biased opinion. So, if there is something you disagree with, I would love to hear back!

COMMON FORMATIONS
The big thing for me is the amount of Common Formations available within the army, a might ten of them! That is twice as large as any other Evil list, which can allow an FR player great variety in their army, as well as allow themed forces to be built.

Haradrim Warband
An ability used by all Haradrim, which is the main reason to take them are their Poisoned Weapons, which can help balance out their low Strength of 3, and can be used on shooting attacks as well. Unfortunately, the pay off for this ability is that they have a Fight of 3, lower then Corsairs and Easterlings, and whilst the same as Khandish they are lower Strength.
The other unique power used by Haradrim are Hasharin, who are trained assassins, who roll on their own chart to determine what they do in combat. My problem with them is that they cost as much as a Chieftain, yet kill themself on a 5+. Personally, I would rather buy two companies of Haradrim for the same price.

Haradrim Raider Warband
Pretty much they are just mounted versions of Haradrim, which is expected, except they cannot take Hasharin. If they had Skilled Riders, I would advise paying to upgrade them with bows and use them as a fast moving, harassing force. But since they don't, I personally would stick with normal Haradrim for shooting, and use Serpent Riders for combat, which I will explain why further in. On the upside, they do come with lances, which not all cavalry come with.

Serpent Guard Warband
They are normal Haradrim, except for only 5 points more per company, they get +1 Fight and +1 Courage, and have all of the command options of Haradrim except the Taskmaster. They still have Poisoned Weapons, which I feel becomes more useful at Fight 4. The only thing they can't do is be upgraded with bows, and as such, I would use Haradrim for shooting and Serpent Guard for combat. The only reason you wouldn't is because Serpent Guard are metal, and getting a large unit of them would be expensive, compared to the plastic of Haradrim.

Serpent Rider Warband
Idential upgrade for the same price as Serpent Guard, except they can be given bows, although I wouldn't bother. Also, unlike Haradrim Raiders, Serpent Riders can take a Hornblower, if they want to pay for that edge in Movement on the battlefield. If they were plastic, I would say these would turn up alot more in the game.

Corsair Raiding Party
The second of our plastic infantry units available to us, and are my least favourite of the three. The reason for this is, if you want to shoot, then use Haradrim since they are the same accuracy and have Poisoned Weapons, if you want to fight and thus have shields you would be better off with Easterlings since they have higher Defence. The only advantage they have is the Bo'sun, who grants a point of Might, whilst costing the same as a Banner Bearer and Drummer, which he counts as both.

Khandish Mercenary Warband
The angriest of the FR infantry, due to being Strength 4 and having two-handed weapons, they have good offensive power for a low cost. Unfortunately, this means that they only have a Fight of 2 due to the two-handed weapons, which means they will die in droves once in combat. If they cost more points this could be an issue. However, if I wanted a hard hitting unit, I would use Hall Trolls, cavalry, or to keep the style, a Khandish Chariot, as they are heavy hitters and more likely to survive. They can also be given bows, but don't pay any extra to do so, and as such are the cheapest shooting available. But for only 5 points more, take Haradrim with bows!
Once again, a metal model that may be more popular if they were plastic, although I think that would be due to the look over the rules.

Khandish Mercenary Raiders
Remember when I wished that Haradrim Raiders came with Skilled Riders, so they could act as a fast moving, harassing force? Well, these do! And for the low price of 25 points with the bows included. Now they may lack the Poisoned Weapons of the Haradrim, but that is heavily outweighed by being able to move the full distance and still shoot. On the off-chance that they get into combat, their Strength 4 for being Khandish may allow them to do some damage, but as they lack lances, I would make them avoid combat as much as possible.

Easterling Cohort
I will apologise now for the fact I am a big fan of Easterlings, mainly due to how much I like the look of them. Thankfully GW didn't let me down by making them very good rules wise!
The first thing I will say about them is the sheer stoic power they have through their Defence being 7 when using shields. This is for the same price as a Serpent Guard, who whilst having 1 higher Courage and Poisoned Weapons, have 3 less Defence, and less command options.
The second thing I will say is their command. Whilst they have the standard array of Captain, Banner and Drummer, they also have a War Priest [although I would pick a hero] and a hero called a Dragon Knight who only provides 1 Might and doesn't raise Courage, but has a Fight of 7, which can make them very dice heavy in combat when hitting the enemy. Currently I plan to use Dragon Knights for increased aggression, and Epic Hero wizards for Courage and/or magical support.
The final thing I will say is that they can use pikes for only 5 points. Now this may not seem all that special, until you compare them to Uruk-Hai Phalanx's, that don't come with the option for shields, and thus can't defend as well. I would take more pikes in my force if they put more in a box, or if I could be bothered to convert them...

Easterling Archer Cohort
The most expensive Common Formation archers in the FK army, and yet still have the same accuracy as all the other Common Formation archers. Their advantage is that they come with the highest Defence out of all the choices, and still have the option to take a War Priest as a command option. It is also likely a misprint, but their Captain raises the Courage of the Formation by 2 instead of 1. I am using them in my army, mainly for the fact I own them due to the Easterling box, and like the look of my models.

Easterlings Kataphrakt Cohort
Take the love I had for the Easterling Cohort, and stick him on a horse, and this is the unit you end up with. It has the same command options, and so can take a Dragon Knight, which I feel is definately a solid choice since you will be wanting to maximise your amount of dice, and also a War Priest, though I'm still not impressed by unit wizards.
The one thing that they lack, which they don't have due to the models, and likely game balance, are lances. If they had lances and a Dragon Knight, I feel they would cost more points, but be brutal with it. I own 6, and depending how they do for me, that number will only get higher...

RARE FORMATIONS
The FK come with 9 Rare Formations, which puts them in between Isengard and Mordor, an amount I am happy with. Some stand out, both in terms of rules and also for the model *cough Mumak *cough*, whilst others could be missing from the game and wouldn't phase me at all.

Watcher Warband
The bigger brother of the Haradrim, who have the statline of the Serpent Guard, except that they have an Accuracy 3+, and so if upgraded to have bows, can make them quite potent indeed, albeit costly.
What is also nice about them is that they are Ambushers, and so having a Formation rush out of some terrain, only to dice up the enemy in the flank or rear, whilst enjoying their Poisoned Weapons appeals to me greatly. However, they have no command options, which could be risky.

Half Troll Warband
The biggest thing that stands out to me is the cost of them, in terms of points and also cold, hard cash! However, ignoring that they look to be a truly dangerous unit. With Berserk they are likely to be Strength 7, and possibly Strength 9! That means most of the time they can wound a Mordor Troll on a 4+. Then to add a tasty cherry on top, they can pay to have two-handed weapons, which I feel is completely worth the dent in their Fight value.
What I also like is that they are Resilience 2 each whilst also being Indomitable, so they will need to be the focus of the enemy, or they could live to regret it. Then for an extra bonus, they cause Terror, just in case the enemy feel like charging, or possibly failing and being Fight 0 for even more aggression.
Elsewhere on the forums it has been mentioned enhancing this unit with Amdur, and I agree it would like giving a group of ravenous monsters some chainsaws, just to make them extra lethal!
I would advise putting any character in with a reasonable Courage value, just to make up for their pathetically low value of 2.

Mahud Warband
Oh dear. This is one of the units that impresses me the least, and I know I will never field. Whilst their statline, bar Courage, is impressive, the problem I have is that I think they are too middle ground. You can get better offensive power for similar points elsewhere, and better defensive power from Easterlings. Then, instead of bows they have the option of Blowpipes, which have a shorter range for no benefit.
I also dislike the models, which doesn't help them win me over rules wise.

Mahud Raider Warband
Same as above really. For the same price take Serpent Riders, or pay the extra 5 points and take Kataphrakts. Skip them in a heartbeat!

Corsair Arbalesters
A part of me worries GW will admit they priced these guys wrong, as on paper they seem FAR too good for their price. The only reason I don't own any is because they are metal, and for 3 companies, it would cost me 64. If price were no object, I would take at least 1 formation, maybe 2.
They come with crossbows, so they have some serious hitting power, and then they come with shields so big it gives them +3 Defence instead of +2. And all for the same price as a Corsair Raiding Party without bows.

Black Numenorean Regiment
They have the same statline and price of an Easterling Cohort, but in exchange for not being able to take pikes and a smaller command option, they cause Terror. The only other Terror causing infantry is Half Trolls, who cost almost three times as much, so this is a cheaper way to take a Terror causing unit. Currently I am undecided on them, as I would want to play more games to decide if I think they would be worth it over Easterlings with a Dragon Knight. If they were plastic, I would be more tempted to try them out.

Morgul Knight Regiment
Now, whereas I couldn't make up my mind with Black Numenoreans, it is much easier with Morgul Knights. They have a terrific statline, only let down by being Strength 3, but made up for by having Defence 7 on a horse. Terror on cavalry I feel is much more useful, because if they charge infantry and have them fail their Terror test, an extra 4 dice, more with a Captain or Epic Hero, is nothing to sneeze at.
They are on my wish list for future models.

Khandish Charioteer
Our replacement for trolls and similar monsters, this is a unit I like. It comes with a bow, although I doubt it will get used much. However, Strength 6 with a two-handed weapon, with 4 attacks base and an extra 4 instead of 1 for charging, can make this deadly. It can be upgraded to a King for 50 points, which gives you +1 Fight, +1 Defence, +1 Courage and 2 Might. I feel that is a bargain for the price, and am very grateful I won one on ebay at a knock down price.
Like all monsters, I think they would better with more then one, as it means you don't have to worry about one falling down to concentrated shooting.
Once I have some in-game results, this section may be updated, either to rave or rant, depending on how it swings.

War Mumak of Harad
The biggest and scariest thing in the army, and surprisingly, a model that doesn't call out to me. A giant plastic elephant doesn't appeal, and so I haven't really read it much.
Later I will read it and give it a solid review, but for now, I just think that if an opponent placed Sauron or a Balrog on the table, I can have two Mumaks for the same amount of points.

LEGENDARY FORMATIONS
Alas, this is an area the FK fall down on, wing only a single Legendary Formation, and one I feel is sub-par.

Abrakhan Guard
They are just a unit of Haradrim, except that their named Captain, the Golden King, has 3 Might instead of 2. The unique nature of the Abrakhan Guard is the Golden Hoard they deploy at the start of the game, anywhere on the board. As long as they are within 3 inches, they get +1 Fight and +1 Strength. I would rather buy some units instead.

EPIC HEROES
Whilst the FK can use six of the nine Nazgul without classing them as allies, so long as they aren't mounted on a Fellbeast, the FK only have four of their own Epic Heroes, although I think they are all good.

Suladan, the Serpent Lord
The second most expensive hero in the army, he comes with several interesting abilities. One is Perilous Hubris, where he is forced to perform a Heroic Duel is possible, but if he slays his foe, then he is rewarded with a point of Might. That combines well with Hero of Legend, where the first Might point he spends each turn is replaced on a 4+, meaning with some good rolls, he can keep churning out Heroic and/or Epic actions.
His list of Epic Actions showcase the style this hero is meant to be used in, with Epic Challenge to fuel his Hubris, and Epic Strike and Epic Charge to bolster his unit in combat.
Finally, he is an Inspiring Leader of Men, so I would deploy him in a unit of non-Men, such as Half Trolls, so that they get his Courage, as well as all Men nearby.

Dalamyr, Fleetmaster of Umbar
An affordable character, with my favourite defensive ability in the FK, where enemy formations don't get a charge bonus against his formation. If it was only against his company that would be one thing, but even if they flank him they still lack a charge bonus, although the unit still suffers the penalties with a flank/rear attack.
One of his Epic Actions also appeals to me, although his Might of 2 limits its uses. He can allow a unit to re-roll any failed To-Hit rolls, not just on a 1 like Haradrim. So yet again, this is a character I feel would do well in Half Trolls, as it can make them more dangerous in combat, whist also giving them Courage 5 as Suladan, though other units would need to rely on their own Courage.

Amdur, Lord of Blades
The man that needs no introduction to most FK players, and a model many can't wait to be released [at time of writing]. His Fight of 7, equal to that of a Dragon Knight means that his formation will likely be getting extra dice on the attack, but it is his Epic Rampage that I believe he is truly infamous for. Each time his company scores a hit in combat, they get an another attack, and this is repeated until they eventually miss, or wipe out whatever they were fighting. Now you see why I said he fits in well with Half Trolls in their entry earlier, beating Suladan hands down.
Just like Suladan, he is an Inspiring Leader of Men, giving more flexibility in where he is, and what heroes appear in other units in the army.
All of this comes with the price of him being our most expensive hero, although cheaper then others, including Gimli who also has Epic Rampage.

Queen Beruthiel
This woman should always be bought before paying for a War Priest. Why I hear you ask? She costs just as many points, has Mastery 2, more Courage, more Might. She also has Spirit Grasp, Spirit Walk and Terror, although most of that is useless, as detailed in another thread. Personally, I plan to use her in an allied unit of Spectral Host, because I like the synergy.

So, there you have it, my review, critique, personal bias, or whatever you wish o call it, of the Fallen Realms in War of the Ring.

I hope this has been useful, interesting, and speak discussion.

Spider-pope
07-04-2009, 20:22
Abrakhan Guard
They are just a unit of Haradrim, except that their named Captain, the Golden King, has 3 Might instead of 2. The unique nature of the Abrakhan Guard is the Golden Hoard they deploy at the start of the game, anywhere on the board. As long as they are within 3 inches, they get +1 Fight and +1 Strength. I would rather buy some units instead.



I can see Abrakhan Guard being handy in some circumstances, namely scenarios like The High Ground, where sticking the hoard counter next to the objective would make them a bit tougher to shift, but other than that they are of limited use.

dtjunkie19
08-04-2009, 03:38
Nice, I was actually thinking of starting the same thread. Well since you beat me to it heres my own contribution, in your style.

Common Formations

Haradrim Warband:

Now its hard for me to judge these guys since they are not at all the type of infantry that fits into my army, however they do have their uses. Poisoned weapons is their best redeeming quality, as otherwise they die quite easily and are quite weak with a low fight and strength value. For 5 points more they get bows, which I think is the best way for them to be used. I'd use them in small 2 company formations to huddle inside buildings and chip away at the enemy. Keep them cheap no command and they may be of some use.

Haradrim Raiders:

These guys would be a great harassment unit if they only had the skilled riders. As it is the only use I see for them is as cheap small formation flankers. I think bows are a waste, as making them anymore expensive doesn't seem like a good idea. If I was to take them it would be in companies of 3 with no command and use them in conjunction with blocks of infantry to get off flank charges on your opponents.

Serpent guard/Riders:

Basically upgraded haradrim, 5 points for 1 fv and 1 courage. Not too bad I would consider the riders for a similar role as the raiders above. The guard could fit well in a harad based army, but other than that nothing special.

Corsair Raiders:

Not really too convinced with this choice. Without shields you get a slightly more offensive unit of haradrim without poisoned weapons that dies quicker. With shields they are slightly more survivable then haradrim but cost the same as an Easterling Cohort for less defense. However they have some nice command options, but still not a favorite of mine.

Khandish Warband/Raiders:

Well considering how ridiculous the boxed set is, I havent got a chance to use the infantry models, nor will I. However the Raiders are decent, die a bit too easily for my tastes but have skilled riders and bows included in the cost for the same as haradrim raiders. I use them as a harassment unit, and make my opponent deal with their shooting and eventually the threat of their charge. They are quite fragile in combat but at such a low cost throw them into a unit already charge by another of your units or use them as flankers and that strength 4 can put some hurt down.

Easterling cohort:

One word, amazing. Besides having an awesome model, these guys are a steal and some of the hardest infantry in the game. they are tough as nails, have the option for pikes while keeping their shields, and come with an impressive command option. This is the base of my army, I run one block of 5/6 and another of 3/4 and one block of 4 pikemen in my games. I prefer the captain over the dragon knight just for the extra might however the dragon knight may actually be a better value for the points. However in that case I would say it is mandatory to have an epic hero join your easterling cohorts to raise their courage.

Easterling Bowmen:

I feel that the added defense of the bowmen does not make up for their relatively high points cost. And for just 5 points more one can get Watchers which lose 1 defense but gain ambushers/poisoned weapons, and a better shoot value. I would noly use if you are try to be economical with your army, since they come in the box. (it should be 8 pike/8 sword/4 bow)

Easterling Kataphrakt Cohort:

Again a great unit, I just started using these guys and while admittedly they did not do much in my two games today, they drew quite a bit of fire (multiple ballistas first game) and acted as a transport for my Shadow Lord second game, so I would say they actually performed quite decently. Had I been more aggressive with them I'm sure I would of killed more with them. But for Strength 4 (not as good as lances but close), defense 6, and the ability to take the dragon knight, who is great in this unit. Also taking him saves some points to spend on a banner bearer (one of the only times I would use one honestly).

Rare:

Watchers of Karna:

An expensive unit (when given bows) and relatively fragile, however since they should always be ambushing, being in a wood or building helps increase their survivability. And they are quite a pain for your opponent to deal with. As let them come in turn 2/3 after he moves out of his deployment zone and you have clear shots on the rear of his formations and you can get to anything he tries to hide in the back (archers, siege weapons, etc.) With a low shoot value and poisoned weapons they getting a fair amount of shots per turn.

Half Trolls:

I just bought 2 companies of them, havent put them together yet, however I agree them with dalamyr or amdur would be quite nasty. Also lets not forget khamul or insert ringwraith with them. Cast wings of terror and these trolls are hauling ass across the board, possibly causing terror at -1 to courage. If you absolutely have to kill a BBU (big bad unit, do the following: Take 2 companies of trolls. Put amdur in one company and khamul in another (do this at the start of the turn via heroic move). Then cast wings of terror on your formation. see if it focuses, and if so cast strength from corruption after you move to within charge distance from said BBU. (if he does not keep focus you can do without the SfC, however I run with two ringwraiths in my army just for such situations). The D6 hits you take are fine. On average you will take 4 hits and using khamul's ability 1 on average will be ignored. So 1 guy dies as does 1 enemy if there is 1 within 12" (there should be). Now charge said BBU and call an epic strike with the ringwraith and epic rampage, stirke and epic duel with amdur. Alright so you are now rolling a heroic duel with 2 d6 at +11 (fv 10 +1 for calling the duel), getting 15 attacks plus about 6 extra per company vs. fv 4 opponents. Oh and not too mention they are Strength 6 base (with two handed weapons), +2 or 4 from SfC, + a possible 2 or 4 more from berserk. So almost a guaranteed strength 10. So against all but defense 9+ you''ll be hitting on 3's and rerolling all hits from amdur's company. And any hits against you are redirected to the opponent on a 5 or 6. Overkill for sure but its just highlights some of the nasty things these half trolls can do.

Mahud:

Dont like the models and the rules are meh. Nothing special and there are much better units out there for FR.

Corsair Arbelasters:

Definitely an amazing unit. A decent shoot and fight value, crossbows, on and +3 defense shield. And for such a low low low cost? A steal. The only caveat is the move or fire rule for crossbows. Basically they are lethal unless your opponent goes way out of his way to stay out of their range. However if they do you have already messed up their plans and have the advantage.

Black Numenoreans/Morgul knights:

I have yet to field the Numenoreans however they seem to complement easterlings well and seem to be good used in conjunction with larger blocks of Easterling's. Terror can be very useful. The knights are also pretty nasty, their strength is low but lances help with that. They are one of the only Defense 7 knights in the game, so they are dead hard. And terror is good as well. They will work great in conjunction with Kataphrakts, as the dragon knight duels with his high fight and the Morgul knights and kataphrakts both hit hard on the charge and are heavy cav.

Khandish Charioteers:

I have 3 but have only fielded max 2 in a game so far. They are tricky to use and die quite easily. However on the charge they get 8 attacks going before cav at strength 6. Not to mention they have two handed weapons. They seem to be great flankers. Leave a unit exposed to a cav charge then flank with charioteers. You'll strike first and you'll probably hit on 3+ or 2+. Thats a lot of dead cavalry.

Mumak:

Ugh dont even ask. I've never fielded one but I leant it to someone playing in an allied game with it and it got charged by aragorn first turn, took craploads of wounds and stampeded all over our formations. However that was due to my teammates bad placement of the mumak and them getting first turn and rolling high to get in a charge. Anyway they seem incredibly powerful, however very very random. Which is not how I like to play so mine usually doesnt make it to the field. Looks awesome though and really can put out the hurt.

Legendary:

Abrakan guard:

Never used them. Really only useful in a high ground mission. Even then, meh. There is better out there.

Epic Heroes:

Suladan:

Never used him yet but he seems like he is a very good hero killer. I'd put him in a unit of kataphrakts and charge him right into an enemy unit with epic hero and captain. Both the Dragon knight from the kataphrakts and suladan duel (or suladan epic challenges epic strikes, etc) and there will be some dead heroes and units.

Dalamyr:

For his points a great hero. Completely shuts down charging cav, and basically turns a unit into all around pikes. Besides that epic strike and poison can lead to a bunch of attacks rerolling all misses.

Amdur:

See half troll entry above. This guy is expensive but can be quite deadly. I'd say at 1500+ he is a great addition. Below that his cost might be better spent on something like a second ringwraith (assuming you field one!)

Ringwraiths:

Pure evil savory goodness. (Or evilness).
They are great casters and the dismay and darkness lores work incredibly well together. 2 of them in 1000 points and you will be dictating the battle. Opponent has a dangerous cav unit about to charge you? Pall of night them, if they spend might to resist it and succeed, great. Do it again. Your opponent will be quite frustrated when you stop him from doing useful things throughout the game or force him to use up all of his precious might early.


Queen:

I agree, no brainer choice over a warpriest.



The army as a whole:

Honestly I think fallen realms is an extremely powerful list, if you really pick units that work together well. Now for me the army is doing great so far

(obviously this is personal taste). I love large formations of easterlings. I usually take 1 huge formation, a smaller one, and a medium sized one of pikemen. I add two Ringwraiths for lots of magic, then depending on size of the game I add dalamyr (or possibly suladan/Amdur). As for ranged I love arbelasters and when I have the points I run a few companies of watchers. Finally I add Kataphrakts and whatever else I want to my list. I'll post my 1000 and 1500 point lists up soon on the board so you can see.

I think FR relies on lots of infantry with cavalry taking a more supportive roll and monsters making up for a lack of legendary formations. However
we get some strong heroes, nice cav, some interesting monsters, and perhaps some of the best infantry in the game (easterlings!).

Math Mathonwy
08-04-2009, 06:17
First of all, a great post! I'm still digesting it, but me being somewhat undecided on my first force this gave me lots to think about.

One thing:

Half Troll Warband
The biggest thing that stands out to me is the cost of them, in terms of points and also cold, hard cash! However, ignoring that they look to be a truly dangerous unit. With Berserk they are likely to be Strength 7, and possibly Strength 9! That means most of the time they can wound a Mordor Troll on a 4+. Then to add a tasty cherry on top, they can pay to have two-handed weapons, which I feel is completely worth the dent in their Fight value.
What I also like is that they are Resilience 2 each whilst also being Indomitable, so they will need to be the focus of the enemy, or they could live to regret it. Then for an extra bonus, they cause Terror, just in case the enemy feel like charging, or possibly failing and being Fight 0 for even more aggression.
Elsewhere on the forums it has been mentioned enhancing this unit with Amdur, and I agree it would like giving a group of ravenous monsters some chainsaws, just to make them extra lethal!
I would advise putting any character in with a reasonable Courage value, just to make up for their pathetically low value of 2.
How do you mean they cost a lot of cash? I mean, at nearly a hundred points per company two companies should be plenty and that is only two blister packs. Basic Haradrim are more costly in cash. Or am I thinking this somehow weirdly?

backslide
08-04-2009, 06:42
cheers a good read, I have ened up with several boxes of corsairs, and just treated myself to a Mumak, planning on making a harad/umbar list

dtjunkie19
08-04-2009, 06:42
Well the blisters are 2 half trolls per. 8 models make a company. So 2 companies would be 16 men which would be 8 blisters. At 15 a pop that gets expensive quick

Math Mathonwy
08-04-2009, 07:39
Well the blisters are 2 half trolls per. 8 models make a company. So 2 companies would be 16 men which would be 8 blisters. At 15 a pop that gets expensive quick
But aren't they on big bases like Spiders and such - don't they go on Cavalry trays? If not, then wow - they are indeed super expensive.

Edit: OK, yeah, they go on the infantry trays (as they aren't monsters - me am stoopid). Yeah, very expensive.

Nu Fenix
08-04-2009, 14:27
Thats why I thought it would be worth mentioning, as whilst I think they are very good on paper, the monetary cost could be a factor for alot of people to try them out.

Like anything metal, I would see if you can play a game with proxies to see if you like them before you buy. Worst thing you could have is buying a big unit, and then realising you don't like them, and could have bought ALOT of plastic units you do like for the same price.

backslide
08-04-2009, 15:18
as for proxies and metal formations, I was planning to have my corsair crossbows with the back rank being corsair archers, I really don't think my oponates will care

Chainaxe07
08-04-2009, 22:30
Hello, dont have the book yet but i suppose i do have to buy it!
Well i am interested in fallen kingdoms too, actually, Easterlings in particular.
About Amdur, i have been said he is quite good at hacking things down and helps his troops, but is terribly frail and easy to kill. Is that true?
Also another question: can the new epic heroes in WotR be used in standard smaller games?
If this is the case, how good is our oh so evil easterling with the big sword?
Cheers!
An off topic question: can i mix forces?
I would love to field an easterling heavy force with a small detachement of light orc skirmishers/archers used as sacrifical units. Could i?

Nu Fenix
09-04-2009, 00:09
Hello, dont have the book yet but i suppose i do have to buy it!
Well i am interested in fallen kingdoms too, actually, Easterlings in particular.
About Amdur, i have been said he is quite good at hacking things down and helps his troops, but is terribly frail and easy to kill. Is that true?
Also another question: can the new epic heroes in WotR be used in standard smaller games?
If this is the case, how good is our oh so evil easterling with the big sword?
Cheers!
An off topic question: can i mix forces?
I would love to field an easterling heavy force with a small detachement of light orc skirmishers/archers used as sacrifical units. Could i?

I would definitely advise getting the book, as you will need it to play, ensure you know the rules correctly, and answer most of your questions above ;)

Characters don't have their own Defence, merely Resilience, and he is just the same as other named heroes of his price. So, I don't know where you may have heard he is frail. If his unit looks like it is going to die, then move him out in the soonest Movement Phase. As I mentioned in my review, I think he is very good, and will be popular in FR armies, and I would be suprised to not see him in an Easterling themed army of 1500 points+.

You can spend up to 25% off you points allowance on allies, so yes you could take some cheap orcs as sacrificial units. Personally, I would rather have units who can survive and not need to have a sacrificial unit dying and giving away victory points.

I feel Easterlings are the best out of the choices in the FR, but once you go beyond 1000 points [possibly even at that point level], ignoring the other options available within the army is risky, as you are ignoring some tremendous units! I can't wait to try out a Khandish King in chariot, as it will make a change from a Troll or Ent, and I want people to have to turn to its entry in the rulebook with a look of suprise on what it does!

Nu Fenix
09-04-2009, 00:22
Nice, I was actually thinking of starting the same thread. Well since you beat me to it heres my own contribution, in your style.

Sorry I beat you to it, but I felt that in such an early stage of the game, many people will be wondering what to get or use, and I had an urge to type my opinion on this wonderous army of ours.

We seem to have similar attitudes towards alot of units, and I agree with how Easterlings boxes should have 8 pike and 4 archers. Oh how silly they would be if that were the way!!

The question of Captain vs Dragon Knight is one that will likely be with me for a good while. If I have Suladan or Amdur in my army, then they can spread the Courage around to make up for one weakness of the Dragon, although the Might 1 I feel is their biggest weakness. But that Fight 7, or 8 on pikes, is awefully tempting, and for less then a Captain.

I can't believe I completely ignored Ringwraiths in my review! I'll have a good read of them and likely edit them in later. If I was heavy into Mordor I would just add it there, but they hold no interest for me. They just don't look as varied as our beautiful Fallen Realms :)

Chainaxe07
09-04-2009, 12:30
I

You can spend up to 25% off you points allowance on allies, so yes you could take some cheap orcs as sacrificial units. Personally, I would rather have units who can survive and not need to have a sacrificial unit dying and giving away victory points.

I feel Easterlings are the best out of the choices in the FR, but once you go beyond 1000 points [possibly even at that point level], ignoring the other options available within the army is risky, as you are ignoring some tremendous units! I can't wait to try out a Khandish King in chariot, as it will make a change from a Troll or Ent, and I want people to have to turn to its entry in the rulebook with a look of suprise on what it does!

Hi,thanks, i know i have to buy the book, but repetita juvant!
The reason i would take orcs is that, since i read the book when 12yo, i always dreamt of evil humans pushing orcs to their death mostly for the sake of it, rather than any tactically sound reason.
After all they are but cheap thralls, while humans are (at least in their own view) much more valued pawns.
This aside i think orc archers are not so bad compared to easterling ones when you consider their price, but i only know points values of the skirmish game, so this could drastically change in WotR for all i know.
Again the reason i am not very inclined to take haradrim or khandish guys is mostly one of image and style.
I cant stand the haradrims with no shields (while in the book they are said to have them, by the way), same goes for the khandish mercs, plus they are far too mongol look for my tastes, while i always envisored them like a sort of variags (i.e. eastern vikings).
Could be tempted by black numenoreans, however, especially morgul knights.
A unit of them with the mouth of Sauron could well represent the force confronting (though no blows were struck) Gandalf and Aragorn at the black gate.
Thanks again!

Nu Fenix
09-04-2009, 20:21
As I was typing a post on another site, I thought if a combination using Amdur that I don't recall seeing so far, and I feel is very powerful.

Epic Rampage from Amdur, and then combine it with a Heroic Fight. Due to Epic Rampage stating the effect lasts a turn, if you feel the unit you are fighting can be wiped out in one round of combat, you decalre a Heroic Fight, roll piles and piles of dice, kill them all, and then charge again and repeat.

With his 3 Might, if he were in a unit of Half-Trolls, they boost themself with Bersek [which also states until end of turn], burns a Might Point to prevent a 1 or turn a 5 into a 6, Heroic Fight to get the combat done, with the unit using his Fight 7 for around 3-4 extra dice, 7 if the enemy failed their Terror test - Although it is likely to only be Fight 6 due to them using Tow-Handed Weapons.
So, they are rolling 10+ dice, generally needing either 2's or 3's against most units, and rolling any successes again and again until they stop rolling.

I also thought about what would Amdur be like with a unit of Cavalry, as just because the model is only on foot, doesn't prevent him being in a unit of Kataphrakts or Morgul Knights and doing something similar, and could even hope for pulling an Earth-shaking Charge instead of a Heroic Fight, though the odds are reduced.

dtjunkie19
10-04-2009, 01:51
Very very powerful combo there. I have limited time, but I will contribute my own. Alright, formation of 6 companies of easterlings and khamul with a company or 2 of half trolls w/the Dark Marshal. Wings of terror with both formations, at least 1 stays focused, uses SfC on the easterlings, +2 strength and take 3.5 hits on average, -1/3 reflected off onto the enemy. So thats like 1 or 2 dead easterlings and a dead enemy. Charge in. Use epic strike with the dark marshal so the half trolls and him are fv 10 then use his special ability to give his FV to a formation within 12. Give to the Easterlings and then challenge with captain and even khamul if there are 2 heroes. You are Fight value 10 for the phase as is every company in the formation. This will assassinate heroes and put the hurt on any formation(s)

Wintermute
21-04-2009, 22:12
Moved to LOTR Tactics at the request of the OP

Wintermute

Nu Fenix
22-04-2009, 01:45
Thank you :)

Orangecoke
26-04-2009, 19:53
Hm - I was looking at doing my force with the warriors, raiders and mumak of harad. Now I'm thinking Easterlings (lots of gold to paint though...gold can be a hassle to paint nicely).

The half-trolls look a little wierd to me and would cost a lot, so that's probably out.

My main question is: who is your army leader of choice?

Nu Fenix
26-04-2009, 20:04
I would say it depends on how big an army you want, and whether you want one for theme or ability.

Amdur is very good, however I would always take a Ringwraith as my first pick, every time. Supporting with magic, whilst still being Courage 5 is undeniably useful. If you are using a small army and can only afford one character, take The Dark Marshal as he has Inspiring Leader Master, so everything within 12" can use his Courage.

I am using Easterlings in non-standard colours. My armour is dark red, and I am trying a red ink wash to give it a shine. Then the cloth is dark green. The colours work well together, but make my army stand out. I haven't had anyone tell me they're the wrong colour, and if they do, I will point out nothing say they must be the same colour as the movie.

Orangecoke
26-04-2009, 20:06
That sounds like a good idea for color scheme!

I'm looking at 1000 points for each of my starter armies (I have 1k of Isengard done basically, and starting Gondor and this would be # 3).

Sounds like the Dark Marshall?

Nu Fenix
26-04-2009, 20:11
I personally would use two heroes for 1000 points. In comparison, my 1500 point army uses four! Amdur and three Ringwraiths.

So, depending on the build of your army, as well as your opponents, a Ringwraith and one of the fighting heroes from the Fall Realm list, or a second Ringwraith would be my choices.
If you use Suladan or Amdur, because they both have Inpsiring Leader Men, then I wouldn't take The Dark Marshal as his ability won't be as useful.
The Betrayer and The Knight of Umbar would be my picks, though Khamul is always popular [part of the reason I don't use him], and if you have alot of magic-heavy opponents, then The Undying is good for protecting your biggest unit.

Work out some army lists and put them up, so we can see what style of force you want, and myself and the rest of the community can advise from there. There are several of us here who play Fallen Realms, or have played against them a fair bit, to give you advise for a solid start.

Orangecoke
26-04-2009, 20:19
Good tip on Amdur + Marshall not being a good idea :)

I'm still tinkering with lists. To be honest, I'm trying to figure out how to make a fun list with mostly the bigger plastic sets just to keep costs down. For example, the Easterling Cataphracts are really nice but are a lot more expensive than the plastic Harad raiders - and you dont get 3 complete companies.

Nu Fenix
26-04-2009, 20:23
Well, I'm oing to be online for a good while if you want to PM some ideas back and forth.

Pavic
04-05-2009, 01:27
Whilst the FK can use six of the nine Nazgul without classing them as allies, so long as they aren't mounted on a Fellbeast....

Sorry to sidetrack, but why does mounting one of the named ringwraiths result in them becoming an ally? Is there a rule I have missed?

Nu Fenix
04-05-2009, 12:11
They are a Monstrous Hero and not an Epic Hero once they are on a Fellbeast. When the Fallen Realms and Angmar state they can take specific Ringwraiths from their own list and not as allies, it states Epic Heroes.

I personally hope that under an errata they allow Ringwraiths on Fellbeasts to not count as an ally and are part of the main list. Until then, technically, they use up your ally allowance.

ProfessorCurly
04-05-2009, 22:30
So I played a pure corsair fleet army up till now, how would that fair with this new book? I've not had a good look at it.

I've read that Arbelesters are still in, what about Reavers?

Emissary
04-05-2009, 22:43
Nope, only the corsairs and arbs. The fleet master is also one of the special characters.

I'm also a little on the fence about using too many ringwraiths right now. On the surface they're really good and can almost be a bit of a crutch. I've also been finding more people complain about them and their magic then they do everything else in the game at our store. I guess I'm saying I'd be wary of using 3 or more in any game of 2000 points or below too often, especially if your opponents start to complain.

Nu Fenix
04-05-2009, 22:44
Corsairs only have Arbalesters and the Raiding Party, which have the option of being upgraded with shields or bows.

Depending on how much you own, you may want to diversify your options for WOTR, as the Fallen Realms work well by mixing up what they have.

I started with Pure Easterling, but have realised that Khand, Haradrim and Corsairs have a place in my army, though not the Mahud.

Having one of the sub-factions being the primary part of the army is all well an good, but diversifying makes the army stronger, adds variety on the table, and also for painting.

If you say how much you own for Corsairs currently, we can try to help know how much you have so far.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by Emissary! I have reduced my Ringwraith count down to 2 for the next list I use, going for 1 Epic per 500 at the moment.

Emissary
04-05-2009, 22:54
Yeah, I've been doing the same in my Mordor army.

At 1k points I have Gothmog + The Betrayer/Khamul. In 1.5k I use Gothmog + The Betrayer + The Tainted. At 2k, I've been using Gothmog + Winged Witch King + The Betrayer/The Tainted.

I'm really trying not to use more then 2 of them right now. Our Good players have been a bit demoralized by them for a bit.

Nu Fenix
04-05-2009, 23:05
Well, they get Counsellors, many more Heroes with Inspiring Courage, Heroes with Fight 10 naturally, an Epic spellcaster for 75 points, Defence 8 infantry, three Heroes who grant +2 To Hit, amongst other things.

So if they complain, just remind them of those things ;)

Emissary
04-05-2009, 23:22
I do, but a lot don't think it's the same. We have a lot of high defense infantry too and for the rest would you rather have it over the passive, formation/army-wide abilities of the nazgul?

Some of it is also gloriously synergistic that it can get sad. The tainted + terror causing formation + dismay spells can really put a hurt on your opponent, especially when you have a few nazgul working in tandem to debuff several units and have the tainted in a central location. Or if you have Amdur with the Betrayer in a strong unit with great weapons or half-trolls. Or just having the witch king behind your lines, allowing everyone to auto-pass terror and at the double checks while your army is bearing down on the elves.

After mulling it over for a bit, I'm not really sure I would rather have the base fight 10 guys, or the +2 to hit for one company guys or the counsellors when I can have a guy that gives a 5+ save with rebounds, or allowing my 9 blocks of great weapons a reroll, or another guy completely neutralizing all hero command within 12" without having to spend any might.

Nu Fenix
04-05-2009, 23:29
The problem is that Ringwraiths are under-priced, and we know it.

They are amazingly good value, and could easily cost 150 or maybe even 175 points, considering the abilities they have and are Focus 3 spellcasters.

I would like it if we had one Counsellor in Evil though.

Nu Fenix
15-05-2009, 12:09
Originally I didn't rate Hasharin very highly, but I have recently been putting more thought into them. The reason is for a way to deal with high Defence formations, such as Vault Wardens and war machines.

Whilst they may kill themself on a 5+, in doing so they will cause D6 hits, otherwise they will cause D3 hits and be able to repeat the following turn. Ideally I would keep them away from any enemy formation which has any hero with a Fight greater then 5, and definitely away from Epic Strikers.

But I still wonder if they are worth the price, being the same as a Captain?

EdFireborn
17-05-2009, 23:26
Could someone do a synopsis for the ringwraiths and possible allies? i'd like to know which ringwraith(s) to get.... I have 9 Black Numenorians and 48+ Haradrim (24bows 24 Spears + additional spears and bows) and a Mumak

fracas
18-05-2009, 01:44
the following epic ringwraiths are considered part of the Fallen Realm list:
Khamul, Knight of Umbar, Betrayer, Undying, Shadow Lord, and Dark Marshal

taking the dark marshal makes black numenoreans and morgul knights common formations rather than rare
for fluff reasons,
khamul (transfer a hit on 5+ to another formation) is associated with easterlings
and obviously the Knight of Umbar (formation may use an opponent's hero's fight or strength) with Umbar corsairs

Nu Fenix
18-05-2009, 02:37
I did a breakdown of each of the Ringwraiths in the Mordor Tactica, since they can use them all, and it was the most fitting place to post it.

EdFireborn
18-05-2009, 07:04
o, thanks! i'll read that!

Stratigo
13-07-2009, 13:09
I think Easterling archers may be a bit under rated here. These guys are pretty nice, having a good defence and a very good fight. They are an archer unit that can stand on the line of battle.

And they are plastic, thus not requiring one to hack off limbs to buy arbalesters.



One thing some people might want to do is try and reinact Alexander the Great's Hammer and Anvil tactic with Easterling pikemen and kataphracts. You pin them in place with infintry and flank with the cavalry. And your army itself would be very similer to Alexander's. Though everyone runs around at the speed of light in WotR.

Nu Fenix
14-07-2009, 12:17
In an ideal world however, I would not want my archers getting into combat, and as such when compared to Haradrim, I am sacrificing Poisened Attacks for +2 Defence, and since the archers want to kill as much as they can from afar, the re-roll on 1's is much more useful. In addition, they can also do it in combat too, increasing their chances of defeating the enemy.

ferrumvir
07-12-2009, 20:38
Hi Nu Felix,

Thanks for writing the review, I concur with almost everything you've said. I'm now eleven games (and 600 points) into an Easterling force. I've chosen these for the models and as I'm playing for fun (formerly a tourny player and did everything for points efficiency) but at the moment less so... But still interested in winning. Here is what I have found out so far.

Easterling Cohort/Pikemen/kataphracts:
Without a caption they are zero might and no double. Just asking to be out manoeuvred and slaughtered. Banner worth taking just to avoid rolling on the charge and panic.

Easterling Archers:
Expensive when compared to other options, but if you want the look, then you have to live with that. At the moment I've not given them a captain and continually out manoeuvred. So I'm just about to start converting one. I've found that small units (small enough to fit in defensible terrain) can anchor the flank from roving cavalry (i.e. defence 7 and all round vision). I've also just read on the GW site a bit about using might and though I've not tried this (I'm not actually sure it's legal) moving them at the double down the flank of an advancing unit, then calling heroic shoot, to shoot at them avoiding their shild bonus. Then calling a heroic charge to charge them in the flank thus pinning the enemy and allowing the unit you were supporting to get the charge! (can you heroic charge after shooting?)

Khamul:
Cheep, and very potent if used correctly. However: having used him in a number of games my opponents are getting wise to his tricks, and how to kill him. Do they shoot his unit - no, they might reduce his support but he'll just skip to new unit to and they can not afford the hits back... they charge him with any unit that has a captain and call a heroic duel, and butcher him on the spot, therefore his formation does not get the saving throws. i.e. the saving throw bonus is completely defeatable by an experienced opponent. Therefore is is just a level 3 magic user with spirit grasp. So keep him with the archers and away from the fight unless your opposition has no captains/heroes in which case put him in the action and use the save/rebound which can be awesome. (I've saved 8/9 hits from 2 companies of Elven cavalry... priceless! My opponent has since used the above against him...)
With one might point, and only subtle magic to use, I'm now struggling to use him effectively. (Sorry if I've just given tips to the enemy!)

Amdur:
More expensive than Khamul, but I seem to be getting value for money (at least with my competence). He's just a savage unit killer. Epic Strike and Dual against any captain and the hits to the unit are awesome, however steer well clear of monsters as he can't duel and therefore asking to be stomped on.

At the moment I'm pure Easterlings, and I'm being out manoeuvred by Elves and out fought by Dwarfs. And at the moment unable to out fight Elves or out manoeuvre Dwarfs... I need a little more practice moving units correctly...

Cheers Scott

Steam_Giant
11-12-2009, 12:43
I've also just read on the GW site a bit about using might and though I've not tried this (I'm not actually sure it's legal) moving them at the double down the flank of an advancing unit, then calling heroic shoot, to shoot at them avoiding their shild bonus. Then calling a heroic charge to charge them in the flank thus pinning the enemy and allowing the unit you were supporting to get the charge! (can you heroic charge after shooting?)


I think not, to clarify:

"Heroic move" prevents shooting and charging, but "At the double" only prevents shooting.

The rules for "Heroic shot" say you can shoot after using "at the double".

The shooting rules say a charge cannot be made after a shooting attack is made in the shoot phase.

The "Herioc charge" gives no caveat.

IMHO, you can move "at the double" then either charge/H-charge or H-shoot, not both. Still a great tactic for getting the jump on a wall of shields.

Cheers for the Khamul advice, i have a game coming up in the new year against an easterling force led by the reflective wraith. I now feel suitably armed to take the mutha down ! Lurtz should Duel him off the table and Ugluk can deal with any pesky terror causers.

BoromirofIpswich
14-12-2009, 18:18
Emissary,

I've been on the receiving end of Ringwraith armies from the beginning; my regular opponent now fields 5 in his 2000 pt Mordor armies against my 'pure' Gondor forces. So let me give a few pointers, if you will, about how to defeat or counter them.

Boromir! He's the best tool of all, I have found. Even against the Dwimmerlaik-Khamul combination that is one of my opponent's 'ploys'. Sure, a lot of Might tends to get burn up but with Epic Duel I normally can get rid of 'Old K'. Having Pippin in the formation helps as well, as does the 'Desperate Heroics' fortune. I have tried Counsellors but find they use up too many points.

Lots of units. Mordor troops are generally pretty weak and spend an age trying to hack through the armoured warriors of Gondor. I tend to have two big blocks of (6 companies) of WoMT which entice my opponent like a magnet. Whilst he's chipping away at them the other units try to get in the all important flank attacks. The large number of units minimises the effects of 'Pall of Night' as he usually cannot affect all of them.

In fact what works best is to do the opposite to Mordor, go for rank and file and a few epic heroes rather than try to match him epic hero for epic hero. Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn and Boromir in one army was not a success!

Edonil
15-12-2009, 00:55
Wow...your opponent seems to be playing a completely different Mordor than I do, Boromir. I run two Ringwraiths, Gothmog, and tons of infantry. In fact, I have the largest army in terms of pure models out of everyone in our group, and arguably one of the more effective. Overall, I think Hero spam is a bad idea in general, soldiers end up doing most of the killing. I play a fairly elite Mordor, and it does nicely.

Darthvegeta800
02-02-2010, 19:13
Most educative. Ordered the WoTR rulebook and a horde of Easterling stuff bar Kataphrakts (is for later). And this will be well worth remembering. (and rereading)

Xelee
02-02-2010, 19:48
Wow...your opponent seems to be playing a completely different Mordor than I do, Boromir. I run two Ringwraiths, Gothmog, and tons of infantry. In fact, I have the largest army in terms of pure models out of everyone in our group, and arguably one of the more effective. Overall, I think Hero spam is a bad idea in general, soldiers end up doing most of the killing. I play a fairly elite Mordor, and it does nicely.
Mordor does benefit from plentiful 25pt troops that are top class.

I have faced a 1000 pt Mordor force with 485 pts of Epic Heroes - But still has two solid blocks of Shield troops and another two units of Arbalesters. At 1500 pts he can fit in two more Ringwraiths and their life support.

Think GW have undercosted things much? Lets not even get started on the Betrayer.

Usually I'd agree that overdosing on Epics is a bad plan. But when you have 125pt Mastery 3 Spellcasters, which also have formation wide abilities that work for free, it's definitely 'viable'.

darkened sun
09-03-2010, 01:16
Random notes on Fallen Realms.

Fallen Realms are basically as good as Mordor armies. But they are really SIX armies in one, rather than one (Harad, Far Harad, Easterlings, Corsairs, Morgul, Khand). Huge variety of troops to choose from, plus they can choose many Ringwraiths without allying.

The best Fallen Realms army should be a mix of the different races. It's almost impossible to make a 100% pure army whether Harad or Easterlings. Besides the entire theme of the Fallen Realms is that they are a mishmash of allied evil Men.

Amdur and Suladan are two of the best leaders available to Evil armies, who don't have many other general/combat epic heroes available to them... Gothmog, Durburz, Lurtz, Saruman. Not many at all. Take them both together (as I do in my list) and that's really powerful.

Easterling Warriors are the anvil of the army. One or two max sized units of them with Captain and Dragon Knights would give you 48-96 defence 7 troops with a high fight of 4. Pikes are alright, they are not a bad option for the Cohort because they are already D7. But pikes are bad on Uruk-Hai because they have a very low defence, unable to take shields at the same time. IMO their shamans should have access to Ruin rather than Darkness.

Kataphrakts are the heaviest evil cavalry and well worth taking. I don't like Morgul Knights as they can only be taken in formations of 4 companies maximum which is really quite small (only 8 models). Kataphrakts can come in 12s and you can give them tormented steeds making them S5.

Haradrim archers are really good with their reroll to hit. I'm not sure about crossbows as I don't think that their extra strength will be that decisive most of the time. So Haradrim archers are the mainstay archers for Fallen Realms, they're pretty cheap, and they're plastic. When taking a unit of them you can include a captain and use them in combat. Harashii are not worth the points IMO. Too random with their effect. You should at least be able to choose the effect for the same hefty price of 50 points.

Watchers are a strong alternative to normal archers. For +10 points you can ambush with them and they have a few more shots. So you could just paint the normal Haradrim archers black or something along those lines as a proxy.

Haradrim Raiders and Serpent Riders are good light cavalry and have lances, and reroll failed wounds. Again, it's worth giving them bows for the extra versatility and shooting power. You aren't losing anything by doing so and they only cost 5 points. The two units have almost the same stats with Serpent Riders having +1F and C, so either is takeable. IMO GW made a mistake by not letting regular Raiders be taken in formations of 9 like Riders of Rohan. I think they should.

The Khandish Charioteer is only worth taking with the King upgrade, otherwise Defence 5 is just too low, too easy to kill.

Half Trolls are a fluffy alternative to normal monster trolls. S7 with Bezerk plus two handed weapons. They are a bit low defence but at least they have 2 resilience points each.

But of course Mumaks are the best option for monsters. One is good, but two is better. They are worth taking simply because of how hard they are to kill. Any of the uber tough monsters like Mumaks, Balrogs and Stone Giants are worth it for their toughness alone. Mumaks and Stone Giants are extremely cheap at only 250 points, the Balrog is more expensive but is a spellcaster. And then there are the archers on top which are cool with their rerolls to wound.

As for the Ringwraiths, the standard Betrayer and Khamul should do the trick. Others like the Dwimmerlaik and Tainted and further secondary choices.

Overall for Fallen Realms I would not ally with anyone (save for maybe characters) to keep in the theme of the army. Easterlings + Harad is a potent alliance, plus some units from the other races.

Keeping all this in mind the 2k army list I designed runs something like:

Amdur
Suladan
The Betrayer
Khamul

6 Easterlings Warriors, pikes, captain, dragon knight
6 Easterlings Warriors, pikes, captain
6 Kataphrakts, captain, dragon knight
2 Watchers
Mumak
Mumak (or 6 Raiders with bows, captain)

1995 points

It's a decent list and I have almost all of it, save that I only have 1 Mumak. I have alot of Raiders and Serpent Riders which can take its place, but 2 Mumaks is better ;)

Or else

Amdur
Suladan
The Betrayer
Khamul

6 Easterlings Warriors, pikes, captain, dragon knight
6 Easterlings Warriors, captain
6 Kataphrakts, captain, dragon knight
2 Haradrim, bows
2 Haradrim, bows
6 Raiders with bows, captain
Mumak

dtjunkie19
12-03-2010, 15:55
@ darkened sun

Well I agree with you on some points and disagree on others.

But for your lists (especially the first 1), I think you will find that you have too many points tied up in epic heroes and monsters. My 1k fallen realms list would almost outnumber yours....against my 2k list you would be almost 2 to 1 outnumbered. And in WotR, I've found that often quantity is the greatest quality.

darkened sun
13-03-2010, 07:16
I don't think too many points were spent on epic heroes, which I thought was just right, in fact less than I normally spend on them (only 28% in this case). But yes those dragon knights and some upgrades could be dropped for more regular troops. You have to remember that Mumaks are really 14 models, not just 1.

Darthvegeta800
21-03-2010, 18:28
Hmmm I myself am actually working on a pure Easterling list. No idea how well it will do though.

Azexis
25-03-2010, 23:44
Everyone seems to be going on about these kataphracts. Are they really that good or is just for the aesthetics? I like lances, but I played Dol Amroth in SBG, might just be sentimental.

dtjunkie19
26-03-2010, 03:23
Everyone seems to be going on about these kataphracts. Are they really that good or is just for the aesthetics? I like lances, but I played Dol Amroth in SBG, might just be sentimental.

Kataphracts are actually not that efficient for their points. They are worse than knights of minas tirith in every situation except if they get charged by defense 6 or 8 troops....in which case they are already in big trouble.

Lances + str 3 > Str 4 no lances.

The best fallen realm cavalry for their points are the morgul knights. Defense 5(7) is HUGE, and with lances they hit harder than kataphrakts in most situations (defense 3, 5, or 7 troops. Which are by far the most common throughout the books) and equally hard against defense 4 and 6 troops. The terror is an added bonus. The only bonus of kataphrakts is they have a cheaper command option (dragon knights) that are great in duels.

And for second place in terms of cavalry I would say are the haradrim raiders. Sure, defense 4 is horrible, but they are as cheap as basic warriors of minas tirith, and have lances AND poisoned weapons. Which means they actually hit harder than morgul knights in most situations (like for ex. if the enemy formation fails their terror against charging morgul knights),

Spiney Norman
26-03-2010, 09:47
Try giving Kataphrakts the Tormented Steeds Fate, str 5 cavalry is pretty scary even if they don't have lances.

Plus Kataphrakts are possibly the best looking cavalry models in the game.

dtjunkie19
26-03-2010, 14:29
str 3 + lances and str 5 vs defense 4, 5, 6 and 7 is exactly the same if you charge. against defense 8: str 3 + lances = 5's and 3's, str 5 = 6's. My math may be wrong, but that actually is advantageous to the lances.

And paying for that fate to make the kataphrakt's strength 5 makes them even more expensive per company. Not horrible but not the most optimal choice.

The models look nice, but IMO definitely not the best looking cavalry.

darkened sun
26-03-2010, 22:37
'Phrakts are the toughest evil cav. Most of the evil cav is only D5 or 4 (or less), and Morgul Knights, though they have lances, can only be taken in companies up to 4 which is very, very small, alot more easily killed than 6 companies, or 9 for Warg Riders.

So the point about 'phrakts is that they are tough. The RW spell strength from corruption gives +2 strength so any cav unit could use that. Yeah, lances are more offensive but it also leaves them weak defensively... Morgul Knights have a small unit size, Haradrim Raiders/Serpent Riders are great but low defence... kataphrakts are not as bad as you are trying to make them out to be. The point is that they can take damage unlike other cav units.

dtjunkie19
27-03-2010, 02:16
I must disagree. While by no means weak, defense 6 vs defense 7 matters quite a bit. Mainly when fighting strength 4 enemies, or within short range of bows/crossbows, which is decently often. Strength from corruption is great, however you can use the spell on either unit so it makes no difference.

I don't understand what you mean by offensively vs. defensively. Your knights should (almost) never be charged. If they do, you are in decent trouble anyway and with only 2 attacks per company, str 3 vs. strength 4 matters little. Cav are meant to do one thing in WotR...hit hard, hit first, and leave little standing to retaliate. Without lances cavalry lack the extra punch to mow through large infantry blocks.

4 companies of knights is large enough, especially with defense 7 there is no need to take more companies that just becomes too unwieldy and easier to flank. And 4 companies of morgul knights don't die much easier than 6 companies of kataphrakts. And they are much cheaper.

Kataphrakts are fine, however compared to the great choice of morgul knights (that will soon be plastic...as opposed to metal kataphrakts), the only reason to take kataphrakts is for fluff/model aesthetics reasons (which is great, more power to those who want to play with a full easterling force) or if you have too many rare formations/not enough common to take the morgul knights.

darkened sun
27-03-2010, 14:21
The Morgul Knights unit is tiny, with 4 companies = 16 wounds (14 taking into account the hope is lost rule) which is as much as only two infantry companies. Khamul could go with the Kataphrakts to deflect wounds.

You make it sound like cavalry without lances is unchoosable, which is stupid. That would make the whole Rohan army crap unless you took all Royal Guard. There are other legitmate weapons for cav like throwing weapons (Warg Riders, Rohan) and bows (Rohan). It's like saying that only infantry units with two handed weapons are worth taking, and nothing else. KP are simply a different, heavy type of cav that can be taken in a full unit size, they have S4 and access to a Dragon Knight upgrade.

You make it sound like 4 companies of Morgul Knights will wipe out anything it charges. Don't underestimate the importance of numbers, like Warg Riders formations of 9 companies. Lances are great but Morgul Knights have weaknesses like any other unit.

Kataphrakts can take 50% more models than Morgul Knights, which is huge.

Reinholt
27-03-2010, 18:36
Truly large cavalry formations can have several problems, however:

1 - They get absolutely destroyed by artillery fire.

2 - Your opponent has to be foolish enough to line up in such a way that you can hit with the majority of your companies at once.

3 - They are just unwieldy, as moving a block that large at high speeds can be problematic, so you risk negating the main advantage of cavalry: mobility.

Second, I'm with dt on the Kataphrakts being somewhat underwhelming in comparison to the Morgul Knights. You are trading away terror, defense 7, and lances to get strength 4, and the point cost is identical; I just don't see this as being a good trade. There are plenty of cavalry units without lances that are fine, but it's not like Kataphrakts are 12" moving, master pathfinder, terror-causing, long-bow wielding elves, and nor are they the all-around problem solvers that Riders Eored are. They do the exact same thing as Morgul Knights, only they do it worse.

The only situation in which the Kataphrakts are superior is when they are charged, but that's kind of like saying "In this case, at least my car only caught fire and then fell off a cliff, instead of catching fire, falling off a cliff, and then exploding". You're still in real bad shape either way.

With that said, they are common, you can field them in a slightly larger formation, and it's not like they are a bad unit. They are just somewhat less good than the Morgul Knights on an individual basis, but not game-breakingly so, and you can take more of the Kataphrakts. Field them if you want. With either unit, using them well will matter much more than the exact nuances, as cavalry really does come down to placement and maneuvering.

Neither of these guys are clearly imbalanced, unlike Corsair Arbalesters, who are far too cheap in comparison to the other ranged units in the Fallen Realms list.

darkened sun
28-03-2010, 03:39
Lances can be easily negated by preventing the enemy cavalry from getting the charge through various common spells (pall of night, transfix, immobilise, etc), or by calling a heroic charge, or random things like Radagast's and Saruman the White's special rules. So in reality lances cannot always be as consistently used as two handed weapons, which can always be used no matter what. Morgul Knights are just as vulnerable to artillery/shooting/magic because of their relatively small number of wounds. 14 wounds is not alot at all, whether 1 higher defence than a Kataphrakt or not.

I never said Morgul Knights were terrible, but that Kataphrakts are at least on par, in different aspects, and not drastically worse as this previous guy was trying to prove. The common over the rare slot might also make a slight difference if you are trying to construct a tightly competitive rare-heavy/max rare choice army.

dtjunkie19
28-03-2010, 05:13
Lances can be easily negated by preventing the enemy cavalry from getting the charge through various common spells (pall of night, transfix, immobilise, etc), or by calling a heroic charge, or random things like Radagast's and Saruman the White's special rules. So in reality lances cannot always be as consistently used as two handed weapons, which can always be used no matter what. Morgul Knights are just as vulnerable to artillery/shooting/magic because of their relatively small number of wounds. 14 wounds is not alot at all, whether 1 higher defense than a Kataphrakt or not.

I never said Morgul Knights were terrible, but that Kataphrakts are at least on par, in different aspects, and not drastically worse as this previous guy was trying to prove. The common over the rare slot might also make a slight difference if you are trying to construct a tightly competitive rare-heavy/max rare choice army.

I think you are failing to see the whole picture on this. First off you should note that kataphrakts do not have 2 handed weapons like you said. just hand weapon and shield.

Second of all, yes, some magic can deny a charge or two. However, that is a moot point as again

1. Even if someone prevents you from charging, you SHOULD NOT be in range for them to charge you. Cavalry have a d6 + 6 charge range. It is very easy to just remain 8.5 inches away from infantry so that they can never charge you. Worst that will happen in no one will get to charge. And cavalry should mainly be attacking infantry. Monsters are the bane of cavalry, and cav on cav battles are usually too costly for both sides.

2. Heroic charge. Same as above. Shouldn't ever really be a problem if you have maneuvered correctly vs. enemy infantry. They simply dont have the range to reach you. And you have might to call heroic charges too if you think someone will try to call one against you.

3. There are no wounds. Resilience is much different from a wound based system. Mainly in that hits do not carry over. Either you kill a model completely or not. Defense 7 makes it much harder for strength 2, 4, 6 attacks to do damage. That includes bows and crossbows as well as many infantry attacks (all uruk-kai for ex.) Again morgul knights are less vulnerable because they are tougher and because the formation is smaller. They have less of a footprint and are easier to maneuver/screen. And...to get 6 companies of kataphrakts to try to milk the "numbers advantage", you are paying more points than on the morgul knights which means less elsewhere in your army.


In a competitive view, while they are not by any means horrible (which I never said they were), kataphrakts simply are inefficient for their points in comparison to morgul knights. That doesn't mean you can't take them and do well, or that you shouldn't, but the point stands nonetheless. I think that is pretty clear, as I have pointed out and from what Reinholt mentioned.

edit: Yes if you were taking a lot of rare it would make a difference. But in a competitive list, I wouldn't forsee the need for more common slots to be much of an issue. Easterling warriors/pike are the best (sans arbalaster undercosted-ness) units by far in the army list.

darkened sun
28-03-2010, 07:07
I never said kataphrakts had two handed weapons, I was comparing lances to infantry with thw. You are just making things up.

The scenario you mentioned of keeping with the cavalry 8.5 inches away only works if you do not have priority for the turn, which is half the time. Because otherwise if you have priority for the cav, once you stay far away, the infantry unit can just move right in front of you after you move/stay away. Likewise recalling a heroic charge in return only works half the time, 50/50, which makes cavalry and all or nothing unit that can either wipe everything out in a charge or fail utterly and die if you do not use them perfectly and have some luck. And even if the cavalry didn't have priority and stayed far away, the infantry unit could just move backwards out of charge range from the cavalry!

But most of all, more than any of the above, you are way, way, way underestimating the power of magic in the game. It is the most overpowered and abusable phase of the game by far. You would never be able to get in a single cavalry charge against ANY evil army with 2-3 ringwraiths or a good army with 1-2 of the main wizards like Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman or Radagast; if they saw the cavarly as a threat and wanted to prevent them charging. And the cavalry would get killed off in those turns where they are prevented from getting "a charge or two", which you underestimate (against small size MKs anyway). E.g. in a turn where you use whatever means to stop the enemy cavalry charging, magic or otherwise, you will win definitely win the combat because of the lack of charge bonuses for the cav, then you call a heroic combat so that you can charge and fight again with your infantry; basically it means the cav will get very heavily damaged:

Against a frontage of 3 infantry companies, averaging 24 attacks, would kill 4 cav altogether (24A/6s to wound = 4 wounds x 2 rounds of combat = 8 wounds total) which is half the Morgul Knights unit, in 1 turn, leaving them with only 2 companies, which means that even if the cav can charge next turn they have not many attacks left to hit with and will get wiped out in their next combat in return. Plus hope is lost has a bigger effect in smaller units, leaving only 6 wounds left to cause before they run away. Even worse would be if that same infantry had thw which would kill 8 cav, the whole unit in 1 single turn.

So lances can be easily neutralised by any competitive army (i.e. which has powerful magic users in it).

I agree that lances are the best overall weapon for cav. I'm not disagreeing with you there. But at the same time you can't say that all cav without lances isn't worth taking at all, KPs or otherwise. Warg Riders and Riders of Rohan are very versatile with bows and throwing weapons, and both can be taken in companies of 9. The Morgul Knights unit has a suspiciously small maximum company size which is their main weakness which I was trying to point out. It's their main weakness, quite blatant when you compare it to other equivalent units like Knights of MT and Swan Knights, both c-size 6.

The odd number of wounds making cavalry more resilient is less big of a deal on the Morgul Knights because of their lower total wounds where you can use might to up to odd wound roll to kill them off or cripple the unit badly. Kataphrakts have 50% more wounds than MKs (24 vs 16), so you can't simply say outright that MKs have no weaknesses compared to other cavalry units.

They do and there is a distinct limit to what MKs can do and take on. They are a more offensive option than Kataphrakts for sure, but they are also quite finesse so you have to be alot more careful with them. Peace dude.

ForgottenLore
28-03-2010, 07:52
... you will win definitely win the combat ..., then you call a heroic combat so that you can charge and fight again with your infantry

Sadly I don't have enough real experience with the game to comment on most of what you guys are saying here, but I do know that you can't do that. A heroic fight has to be called at the beginning of the fight phase, before any combat takes place.

Given how likely the infantry are to win a combat in the scenario you presented I don't think it weakens your argument any but I felt I should point it out.

darkened sun
28-03-2010, 08:35
OK, I made some calculations with non charging cav vs. charging infantry combats and the infantry always cause more wounds, but that it counts for less (half as much) for the combat res because of the res. 2 of the cavalry... (somewhat abusable, especially for hard to kill monsters).

Got colloquial with the heroic call order, but it's the same thing to do it at the start of the fight phase because if you know you can negate a charge (Ragast, 100%) or have already in a previous phase, the move phase (i.e. esp. w/ magic) you should always call a heroic charge against the cav. It's one of the best heroic actions and I haven't even heard anybody mention it before in reference to tactics.

Infantry trumps non-charging cav. The cav would have to get maxed out frontage, 4 or, or 5 wide (I think), and need a higher F-value to make up for it, which would have certain consequences such as letting another enemy infantry unit contact it on either side or both... And Morgul Knights can only be 4 wide max because of their small unit size.

3C infantry = 24A + 3 for charging = 27A
3-4C cav of equal fight value to make a fair comparison (non charging) = 12-16A

5C cav fight 4 = 25A (very best case scenario)
4C cav fight 4 = 20A (the best Morgul Knights can do)

You would need to be spread out max and have a higher F value to come close, but in theory non-charging cav will always have less attacks against infantry. Being too spread apart would let other units contact them in the sides.

But the wounds caused by the infantry would count for half the amount as for the cav. I did not take that into account. So the heroic combat against cav might not actually work, though it works well against other infantry units. So they'd cause more hits

Standard infantry, 3C, 27A/6 = 4.5 hits, but only 2.25 casualties/combat res. pts.
Morgul Knights, 4C, 20A = 3.33 hits, 3.33 casualties

Either way it'd be pretty close (within 1 wound of each other), might or luck would have play a part for that tactic to work.

dtjunkie19
28-03-2010, 11:18
Okay well it seems a silly comparison to make if it isnt related to the discussion at hand.

Magic isn't overpowered. It is simply that ringwraiths are too cheap for the sheer amount of magic they can bring.

What point level are you playing at? At 1k, even someone trying to exploit ringwraiths will have have at most two. Any more and they simply wont have enough troops beside to win then game.

Even at higher levels, where ringwraiths become easier to abuse, I still fail to see your point. Yes someone can use 3 ringwraiths to ensure my cavalry cant charge (which by the way, they need LoS to do, which means the knights can be screened). If they do that then the rest of the army will come in unmolested. Infantry does trump non charging cavalry. But, regardless of whether they are morgul knights are kataphrakts, if knights get charged by heavy infantry, they will be ground down. And once again, if the unit is shut down, morgul knights still have the advantage over a 6 company kataphrakt formation, the advantage of being less expensive, and therefore more expendable.


Again, cav should not be getting charged (rarely). If your opponent gives you priority, you still can set up so that you can't be charged. Since WotR allows premeasuring, it is quite simple. Move so that you are 8.5 inches away + the enemies' move and at the double away. So then at worst you dont charge, at best they will be in your charge range. Or, use your infantry blocks to ensure that any charge at your knights hits the infantry first. Like Reinholt mentioned earlier, cavalry does its damage based on movement and placement. And whether or not you actually get the charge is mainly irrelevant. Its the threat caused that forces your opponent to react which will win the game.

And about your heroic fight tactic. (Remember cavalry shouldn't be getting charged), cavalry can call it too. And if you do charge, you will win the combat and get to charge again.

darkened sun
28-03-2010, 13:09
It is possible to argue for or against anything... this is a tactica thread where we are trying to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses for each unit. All that I was saying was that the maximum unit size of 4 for the Morgul Knights is their one main weakness, and that lances can be neutralized, particularly with magic. They are a good unit, just a bit small compared to other cavalry with lances like Knights of MT and Swan Knights (who are expensive).

I don't play 1k games at all, for me it's way too small a points value to get a decent army for any force and it way overpowers cheap armies like goblins while nerfing elves who are more than twice or thrice the base cost. I play 1500 and 2000. For me those are the best points values for the game. Of course you can play above that if you have that many models. 2 ringwraiths is definitely too much for a 1k army, I worked that out before. But for my mordor I take 3 in 1500 and 4 in 2000. Yeah, they are way underpriced, especially considering their special rule which is practically free and not included in the cost. They should probably be 150 points or something maybe (only 1 might). And above 1000 points RWs won't compromise the army's numbers, e.g. in my 2k I take 4 RWs plus 24 companies of orcs, 225 models alotgether, 12 mastery levels, 20 might.

LOS can be blocked, but 2 RWs in a unit or nearby to neutralise a cav charge is enough. For the situations where the cavalry is out of the infantry unit's charge range, but within its own charge range, that's where the spells come in handy, and I'm thinking particularly of the pall of night one, I think it's called, which makes your shoot worse, but you can't charge, full stop, unlike the other similar spells where you have take a strength test etc.

If you stay 8.5 inches away from the infantry, the infantry can just move 3.6 inches back themselves man so that the cavalry won't be able to reach them. There's no reason why infantry should just meekly submit to cavalry charges every single time. They certainly aren't losing anything by doing moving back once or twice if necessary. It may sound extreme but the first 1 to 2 turns of combat for a cavalry unit versus who they are charging are probably the most decisive where one side or the other will die for the most part.

The rules and tactics for the game are evenly balanced. But some of the magic spells (most of them are weak, but a few are way too good) and character special rules are way overpowered. Plus there are some inherent flaws in the design, e.g. there was this guy in a tournament recently who took 'the pinwheel army of death', 6 companies of elf archers with ragadast and all the epic shot characters and multiple councellors councilling each other an infinite amount of extra might, radagast calling his epic tranquility every turn so that they can't be charged, and the unit gunning everyone down with shooting, to which their infinte might can be added so that potentially kill a unit a turn. You can read about that on the One Ring and Last Alliance forums. Some of the rules are totally abusable, but if you wanted you can take anti-cavalry charging army set up (on a much smaller scale of course) to do cheesy things which are within the limits of the rules.

dtjunkie19
28-03-2010, 20:04
It is possible to argue for or against anything... this is a tactica thread where we are trying to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses for each unit. All that I was saying was that the maximum unit size of 4 for the Morgul Knights is their one main weakness, and that lances can be neutralized, particularly with magic. They are a good unit, just a bit small compared to other cavalry with lances like Knights of MT and Swan Knights (who are expensive).

I don't play 1k games at all, for me it's way too small a points value to get a decent army for any force and it way overpowers cheap armies like goblins while nerfing elves who are more than twice or thrice the base cost. I play 1500 and 2000. For me those are the best points values for the game. Of course you can play above that if you have that many models. 2 ringwraiths is definitely too much for a 1k army, I worked that out before. But for my mordor I take 3 in 1500 and 4 in 2000. Yeah, they are way underpriced, especially considering their special rule which is practically free and not included in the cost. They should probably be 150 points or something maybe (only 1 might). And above 1000 points RWs won't compromise the army's numbers, e.g. in my 2k I take 4 RWs plus 24 companies of orcs, 225 models alotgether, 12 mastery levels, 20 might.

LOS can be blocked, but 2 RWs in a unit or nearby to neutralise a cav charge is enough. For the situations where the cavalry is out of the infantry unit's charge range, but within its own charge range, that's where the spells come in handy, and I'm thinking particularly of the pall of night one, I think it's called, which makes your shoot worse, but you can't charge, full stop, unlike the other similar spells where you have take a strength test etc.

If you stay 8.5 inches away from the infantry, the infantry can just move 3.6 inches back themselves man so that the cavalry won't be able to reach them. There's no reason why infantry should just meekly submit to cavalry charges every single time. They certainly aren't losing anything by doing moving back once or twice if necessary. It may sound extreme but the first 1 to 2 turns of combat for a cavalry unit versus who they are charging are probably the most decisive where one side or the other will die for the most part.

The rules and tactics for the game are evenly balanced. But some of the magic spells (most of them are weak, but a few are way too good) and character special rules are way overpowered. Plus there are some inherent flaws in the design, e.g. there was this guy in a tournament recently who took 'the pinwheel army of death', 6 companies of elf archers with ragadast and all the epic shot characters and multiple councellors councilling each other an infinite amount of extra might, radagast calling his epic tranquility every turn so that they can't be charged, and the unit gunning everyone down with shooting, to which their infinte might can be added so that potentially kill a unit a turn. You can read about that on the One Ring and Last Alliance forums. Some of the rules are totally abusable, but if you wanted you can take anti-cavalry charging army set up (on a much smaller scale of course) to do cheesy things which are within the limits of the rules.


Lets straighten this out, because I dont think you understand my point. I am stating that kataphrakts are not efficient for their points. I am using morgul knights as a basis for this comparison. (You could also look at gondor's KoMT, although the Morgul knight comparison is more apt due to both units being in the same army list). I'm not saying that kataphrakts are useless or horrible, just that there is little reason to take them for competitive play.

1. For the same points as morgul knights, kataphrakts gain 1 str, lose lances, lose 1 point of defense, and lose terror. Statswise, they are worse than morgul knights. They hit less hard much of the time, and die quicker.

2. Kataphrakts benefit from two options, the option to take 6 companies vs. 4 for morgul knights, and the option for a dragon knight. The option for 6 companies does make them harder to kill than 4 companies of morgul knights SOME of the time. However, doing some math (ignoring hope is lost rule for simplicity):

vs strength 2 bow fire


Kataphrakts-6 companies, 12 models/24 resilience total, Defense 6.
Need 6's to hit. Every 12 shots is a kill. 24*6 (or 12*12) = 144 shots to kill the all 6 companies.

Morgul knights- 4 companies, 16 total resilience/8 models, defense 7. Need 6's and 4's to hit. Every 24 shots is a kill. 16x12 (or 24x8) = 192 shots to kill all of the companies.


vs. Str 3 long range crossbow fire


Kataphrakts-6 companies, 12 models/24 resilience total, Defense 6.
Need 6's to hit. Every 12 shots is a kill. 24*6 (or 12*12) = 144 shots to kill the all 6 companies.

Morgul knights- 4 companies, 16 total resilience/8 models, defense 7. Need 6's to hit. Every 12 shots is a kill. 8x12 (or 16x6) = 96 shots to kill all of the companies.




As you can see, vs even strength attacks, the morgul knights are harder to kill than the kataphrakts. vs. odd number strength attacks the kataphrakts are harder to kill.

Now, lets factor this all in. The morgul knights will hit harder in just about every situation except if charged by a defense 4/6/8 unit. Terror on the morgul knights will sometimes prevent that charge anyway, and like I've argued, a good player will rarely get his cavalry charged by infantry (certain circumstances withholding). The 4 companies of morgul knights are sometimes more resilient than 6 kataphrakts, sometimes less. A 4 company formation will be easier to maneuver and less easy to flank than 6 companies of kataphrakts. The morgul knights are also much cheaper than the 6 companies of kataphrakts.

Therefore:
Morgul knights > kataphrakts

Which is why the best reason to take kataphrakts is for aesthetics.




OT but responding to your other points very quickly.

Magic is not overpowered, and neither are character special abilities (in general). The issue is some magic casters being underpriced, and a few not well thought out special abilities. Let that guy have his combo of death. Once an FAQ comes out and fixes obvious oversights it wont work anymore (infinite might councilor bouncing comes to mind). If someone did that in a game versus me, I would tell them good game and pack up. Not to mention, using what you posted there, the cheapest I could get that pinwheel of death unit is 1205 points. And it takes 360 points of allies so the game would need to be 1.5k for it to even be legal. Even so, it can still be quite easily shot to death. And the since the unit would have at least 5 characters they all couldnt fit in one company and would be even more vulnerable to casualty removal.

I disagree that 1k is too small and that 1.5-2k is optimal range. 1k is a great size for every army bar elves, which struggle...but elves seem pretty weak at all but the absolute highest point values. Even dwarves are more than fine at 1k, and they are almost as expensive as elves. 1250 is an interesting number I may look into playing more often. And 1.5k is also a great number, although some armies are starting to get too large to properly maneuver on a 6x4. At 2k playing on a 6x4 with many armies becomes much less fun, because the board is too crowded and the movement aspect of the game turns into one big meatgrinder of units, no flanking, no finesse. And as you mentioned, it becomes too easy to abuse undercosted ringwraiths on the evil side (and councilor shenanigans on the good side)

Also, I would only play against another fallen realms army if I absolutely must (tournament). Mainly because I think think things like a khamul vs. khamul battle is stupid. It also leads to rule problems, such as 2 opposing formations attacking each other and both khamuls bouncing the hits back and forth and back and forth until both players die of boredom and frustration.

Darthvegeta800
29-03-2010, 11:14
I'm just going to use both. A unit of Kat's and later on some Morgul's. It doesn't have to be minmaxed all the time.

darkened sun
29-03-2010, 12:12
You are assuming those bows are within half range, 12", which is somewhat unrealistic as that is within actual charge range of the cavalry. More probably is that they will be over half range such as behind another friendly formation and on a hill, meaning they both need 6s to hit, strength 1 bows, the most common situation. So in your comparison it's really twice as much, 288 hits for the Kataphrakts while the same as you said, 192 for the Morgul Knights. Archery is only really effective over the long course of the game. It's less effective than combat, being lower strength and unable to use various heroic and epic actions as you can if in CC.

In CC, versus strength 3 which is the most common value, both units die on 6s, the difference being that the Kataphrakts have alot more wounds. The MKs will be only better (tougher) vs elite units of st 4. It's really artillery that is the more effective shooting in the game, though it's more expensive. But those odds are tough to work out, the KPs taking slightly more hits for being bigger with the MKs having less wounds to take altogether.

I don't think Kataphrakts are as bad a unit as you are making them out to be. Like the user above you could just take them both. All the cav in the Fallen Realms list is pretty decent except maybe Khand. Lances can be negated, any old ringrwraith can cast terror on his unit for only focus 3, or you can buy terror for just 25 points as a fate, the MKs' higher defence of 7 is offset by their lower total company size, and D7 over 6 makes no difference anyway against the average bow (S1) and warrior (S3), meaning that they can take much less damage than the KPs on average.

The cheesy army was in an official GW 2k tournament in the USA circuit. It can't be shot to death because it keeps raising back guys from the dead with magic and Elrond's rule. Apparently the guy didn't even lose 1 single company in 3 games. It's stupid but similar situations are unavoidable unless the umpire really knows his stuff and does a FAQ himself.

I also don't like playing the same armies/good or evil against each other but when I complained on the general discussion forum people cut me down saying that they liked it. It's no good having the same characters fighting against each other.

dtjunkie19
29-03-2010, 14:50
I'm just going to use both. A unit of Kat's and later on some Morgul's. It doesn't have to be minmaxed all the time.

Meh, I would too...except that with both units being metal the price tag is quite high. And I don't particularly love the kataphrakt sculpts.

@ Darkened sun

Exactly, its when you are closing in to bows/crossbows to get that charge that you will be shot at ;)

ForgottenLore
29-03-2010, 18:00
...except that with both units being metal the price tag is quite high.

Well, Morgul knights will be plastic in a couple months now.

darkened sun
30-03-2010, 03:34
Plastic Morgul Knights will make them cheaper and probably more popular too. Though after you buy 1 box you still need two models more, I guess you could fill that with characters or maybe a proxy or two. But 3 boxes'd get you 2 full units, plus.

Darthvegeta800
19-04-2010, 00:49
Got a 2nd box of Kat's for my bday from my little brother so I guess I'll stick to just Kat's for now.

Trains_Get_Robbed
20-04-2010, 04:51
On to an actual tactic. . . Are Mumaks worth their points? Got my first game coming up this weekend with my fellow noob friends and I bought a Mumak for my army (to go along with Khamuhl and another box of warriors. We are playing 500 point doubles allied and I'm allied with Saurman and Isengard (my ally has Ur-khai warriors, crossbows, a Troll Cheiftan, a named hero Ur-kai dude and Sauraman), facing off against Elves (shooty based thats all I know) and Minas Tirith themed men.

Would I be best off to put the Mumak out it in the middle and shove it down my buddies' throats, or put it on a flank? And from the Harad book it says you can't put for example Khumul in a Mumakm, correct? Lastly there isn't any upgrades worth taking for the MUMAK?! :WTF?: Is there any tactics with the Mumak or known tactics?

ForgottenLore
20-04-2010, 05:29
I would be hesitant to take a Mumak in only 500 points. Even a thousand points is pushing it I think. What else are you planning to take?

Whether or not an Epic hero can join a Mumak is a rather contentious issue. I believe that they can't, the crew are really just part of the monster model the same way Glorfindel and his horse are just one single model.

As for actual tactics if you do take it, I would want to get it out away from your own troops and in the middle of the enemy formations. If he hits it hard it will stampede and you want it surrounded by enemy in that case. If the board has terrain you can use to shield the mumak while it flanks the enemy that would be good, otherwise I think I would go with the center deployment.

We had a discussion in this thread

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254908

about how potentially damaging Legalos could be to a Mumak with his crippling shot followed by epic shot. If you are going to be facing elves you should at least consider that. If you have some idea whether your opponents will have access to Legalos, so much the better.

Nu Fenix
20-04-2010, 17:12
For the Mumak, there are Fates which are applied to Mumaks in Battlehosts, so long as you take at least one Fallen Realm battlehost.

From what I recall, one increases the amount of hits, and a second does something... Not very useful, but I won't ever see myself using a Mumak.
Part of this is down to cost, when there are other things I would rather spend the money on.
Another part is down to their rules, and how anything that could end up running across my own battleline and smash my own formations, or walk into a tree and die isn't very wise in my mind. I own Skaven if I want to pull stuff like that ;)

There was a big debate last year about whether you could or could not put an Epic Hero with a Mumak. The two reasons you would want to are At The Double! and using Might for its myriad uses.

Overall, the argument ended with both sides feeling stubborn, and so it is down to you and those you play with to decide if it can be done or not.

dtjunkie19
20-04-2010, 21:28
For the Mumak, there are Fates which are applied to Mumaks in Battlehosts, so long as you take at least one Fallen Realm battlehost.

From what I recall, one increases the amount of hits, and a second does something... Not very useful, but I won't ever see myself using a Mumak.
Part of this is down to cost, when there are other things I would rather spend the money on.
Another part is down to their rules, and how anything that could end up running across my own battleline and smash my own formations, or walk into a tree and die isn't very wise in my mind. I own Skaven if I want to pull stuff like that ;)

There was a big debate last year about whether you could or could not put an Epic Hero with a Mumak. The two reasons you would want to are At The Double! and using Might for its myriad uses.

Overall, the argument ended with both sides feeling stubborn, and so it is down to you and those you play with to decide if it can be done or not.

Oh god here comes the Balin riding a balrog argument again.

ForgottenLore
20-04-2010, 21:39
I would like to comment on that argument but am trying to restrain myself.

And that would be Big, Bad, Balin on a Bucking Balrog. (that image is going to be with me for a while now)

Nu Fenix
20-04-2010, 22:12
For the record, I would like to say I never made such a suggestion, before anyone thinks I did :P

Trains_Get_Robbed
21-04-2010, 03:25
Yes, I have a friend that plays Skaven (I convinced him to do it after his intital army Beastmen just failed terribly) and wanted something myself that I could just laucnh at the enemy and not have to half worry about it. From the sounds of it, the rules I have read over etc. . . I have picked the wrong model to do that. Nonetheless I will still use it just because I think it looks sweet! :D

Regarding the hero on Mumak: I didn't know it was a hot bed issue X) I will have to talk it over with friends and GW staff then. I was thinkin about taking the Betrayer and putting him up there if I could it would limit shooting in the first turn or so and allow my arrows from the Howdah to reroll miss hits. Question would be if I were to do this would the Betrayer effect the entire unit Mumak and Howdah or just Howdah?

Thanks for the help!

Nu Fenix
21-04-2010, 16:47
The Betrayer wouldn't be that good a choice in my opinion, whilst the Shadow Lord would, to make it harder for the enemy to shoot you, which is your greatest weakness.

But as you said, you would need to discuss it with those you will play with. The main points brought up are that whilst it is a monster, it has a crew which is why it can be argued he can join, and replace one of them.

I am not saying where I stand on this, merely offering the reasoning behind it.

dtjunkie19
21-04-2010, 23:43
Yes, I have a friend that plays Skaven (I convinced him to do it after his intital army Beastmen just failed terribly) and wanted something myself that I could just laucnh at the enemy and not have to half worry about it. From the sounds of it, the rules I have read over etc. . . I have picked the wrong model to do that. Nonetheless I will still use it just because I think it looks sweet! :D

Regarding the hero on Mumak: I didn't know it was a hot bed issue X) I will have to talk it over with friends and GW staff then. I was thinkin about taking the Betrayer and putting him up there if I could it would limit shooting in the first turn or so and allow my arrows from the Howdah to reroll miss hits. Question would be if I were to do this would the Betrayer effect the entire unit Mumak and Howdah or just Howdah?

Thanks for the help!

I will also not go into the details on this situation since I don't have my rulebook on me at the moment...you can pm me or start up a thread in the rules forum if you'd like. Basically my stance, which i find to be the only one supported by the rulebook is that epic heroes cannot join a mumak because it is a monster. If you look in the rulebook, no where does it say that epic heroes are allowed to join monsters. They may only join infantry and cavalry.

- V -
22-04-2010, 08:15
An Epic Hero can't join a Mumakil as it has no command company he can be put in.

Well that's why I would say no, besides that it is lame, and in complete disregard of the spirit of the game.

scarvet
23-04-2010, 14:48
The Betrayer is pretty good for missile or high Strength unit. While Shadow Lord's ability is pretty much redundant with the up coming Battle Host.......

Epic Heros shouldn't be able to join Mumaks because....it just isn't a company, monster or not. The crew members are just can be join because they are part of the Mumak model....

Nu Fenix
23-04-2010, 17:53
An Epic Hero can't join a Mumakil as it has no command company he can be put in.

Well that's why I would say no, besides that it is lame, and in complete disregard of the spirit of the game.

What about the Chieftain who rides him in The Return of the King, who was the source of design for the Mumak King? He certainly seemed like someone 'Heroic' to me in the scheme of things within WOTR.

Also, does that mean you wouldn't allow an Epic Hero to join the following as they also don't have a command company, even though p60 says how the command company is the first company?
* All artillery
* Morgul Stalkers
* Uruk-hai Sappers
* Feral Uruk-hai Warband
* Wild Men of Dunland
* Uruk-hai Berserker Warband
* Giant Spider Brood
* Cloud of Bats
* Spider Broodling Swarm
* Watcher Warband
* Half Troll Warband
* Spectral Host [Where would the Dwimmerlaik/Tainted fit in the Spirit Legions of Angmar Battlehost?]

ForgottenLore
23-04-2010, 18:09
Here we go again,

Since I started playing I have read everything I could find on the subject of command companies and have found that there is significant evidence to support both interpretations.

My personal belief is that RAW says epic heroes can join the companies Nu Fenix listed, that RAI was that they can't. But that the whole issue was sloppily put together by GW.

As for the Mumak, I believe that Epic Heroes can't join one because it is a monster, not because it doesn't have a command company.

Keep in mind that if you do treat the Mumak and crew as a company instead of a monster, then it is subject to the Hope is Lost rule and should be removed if it takes 7 casualties since it does not have Indomitable. This, more than anything else, is what convinced me that it is just a monster and the crew are treated like part of the single model.

Nu Fenix
23-04-2010, 18:36
The Indomitable argument was one of the key points used in the orginal argument last year.

At the end of the day, all anyone can suggest is decide in advance with your opponent what is and isn't being allowed. If a concensus can't be made, then my suggestion would play one game using everything from one player, and a second game with the second players interpretations.

- V -
23-04-2010, 20:22
Ok, I might have been to fast on the trigger, sorry. However:

The rule for companies (p. 25) states: "... Each company therefore has a defined front, rear and two sides (or flanks)." Therefore a monster is not a company.

The rules for Command Companies (p. 60) states "The command company is the first company in a formation" Therefore a monster doesn't have a command company, all the formations you mentioned have, they however cant buy command models, which is something else.

The rules for Fielding Epic Heroes (p. 68) states: "... Epic Heroes are not an upgrade to a formation - they are placed in the command company ... " Epic heroes can therefore only be put in formations that has command companies.

Conclusion: An epic hero is not able to ride a Mumakil, nor ride a chariot, as they are single models/monsters, it may on the other hand join the formations you mentioned.

Nu Fenix
23-04-2010, 20:36
However -V -, the Mumak says in its formation box:

One company comprising a Mumak and thirteen crew

I underlined the critical word above - company.

So, the book establishes it has a company, which cannot be disbuted.

As such, does this mean that it has a command company, since the first company is a command company, and therefore can be joined by an Epic Hero?

- V -
23-04-2010, 20:47
Well I have to surrender to that argument, so an epic hero can ride a mumak, but not a chariot? Do I understand your argument?

Getting off soon, but final thing, it doesn't name it self as a company in its wargear section, all "real" companies does so :)

But I have to agree with you, RAW I'm out of arguments.

Nu Fenix
23-04-2010, 20:57
Correct, as the only chariot in the game states Single model, just like Trolls, Ents, etc do. The Mumak is the only monster who even has a company, with all others just saying Singe model.

I wasn't trying to win the argument however - I merely try to get all the facts out, until there is as little ambiguity left.

The main thing is though, who would even want to put an Epic on a Mumak, as the risk of him dying due to a Stampede is far to great!

dtjunkie19
24-04-2010, 01:23
I will let epic heroes join mumaks on the condition that when 7 crew members die mumak is removed from the table ;)

ForgottenLore
24-04-2010, 01:32
Yeah, every time this comes up it sparks a debate, for what is probably a bad idea.

Even so, my argument that they cannot really has nothing to do with command companies. The rulebook states on p 24 under monsters that a monster "is a company unto itself". To my mind this removes the label company in the mumaks entry from relevance, since ALL monsters are apparently companies.

That means the mumak should be treated just like any other monster model. The fact that it has a crew should be treated no differently than the fact that the chariot has rider, or that Glorfindel consists of a horse and rider. They are all part of the single model that is the monster, and so is the crew of the mumak. The mumak just has special rules concerning the crew tokens that come with it.

That is how I see it.

Now the question about command companies and all those other units is much less clear and continues to bug me. A lot.

Xelee
24-04-2010, 01:39
I will let epic heroes join mumaks on the condition that when 7 crew members die mumak is removed from the table ;)

I think that is as good a way to approach it as any.

Trains_Get_Robbed
24-04-2010, 09:05
Let's just drop it? (?) It dosen't matter anyways as me and my crew are going to try out LotR before trying WotR and my Mumak came with missing pieces and was thus returened anyways so. . . :(. Taticsssss!!!! Would it be better served to put pikes on Easterlings or just normal allied Orcs? I have some of both and I found myself wanting to bring a pike unit tomrrow to break up some Gondor cavalry (LotR by the way, sorry foe the LotR post).

- V -
24-04-2010, 10:03
@ Trains_get_robbed: Not to be rude or anything, but when you say you are going to try LotR instead of Wotr, do you mean SBG? Be cause if that's the case, then you are at the wrong place...

@ Forgottenlore: The thing on page 24 is in regards of moving trays, it clearly states that all you should derive from the text is that monsters doesn't need moving trays.

Why would you put an epic hero in it? At the double (what about heroic move? not realy sure if that should be treated as 9d6 move :() Put the shadow lord on in for some protection against shooting, the betrayer allowing it to re-roll :) well I think there are a lot of possibilities.

ForgottenLore
24-04-2010, 18:17
V, that is why it brings it up, yes. I don't see how that changes my argument in any way. The section basically says (I am paraphrasing here):

Monsters are companies.
Despite that, they don't need movement trays.
There is other stuff about them that will be covered later.
Until you get to reading about the other stuff, just remember they don't need trays.

I don't see how the fact that they define a monster as a company is invalidated by them explaining the first of several special rules monsters operate under. The entire first sentence of the section says nothing other than monsters are companies.

Reinholt
24-04-2010, 18:24
For me, the key point is the profile of the Mumak. In that, it says that the unit type is either "Monster" or "-", neither of which is something a hero could join.

Otherwise, explain to me why I can't put Gandalf on Gwaihir, or why I can't have Lurtz riding a Balrog. Both are monstrous heroes and thus are their own company.

ForgottenLore
24-04-2010, 18:31
Reinholt, the argument there (which I don't support) is that those are all single models and you don't have a model for the hero to replace and a normal warrior to still be there.

With the Mumak, so the argument goes, you have an extra 13 models that can be replaced.

Never mind the fact that in all but one instance the rule book kinda seems to go out of there way to NOT call the crew "models".

I am convinced that the crew are meant to be considered part of the single model that is the monster.

Reinholt
24-04-2010, 19:00
That argument cannot possible be correct!

As per the rulebook:


You may never have more Epic Heroes in a company than that company has 'normal' warriors (i.e. not Heroes or upgrades of any kind).

By this argument, you could never field a monstrous hero, as it's the only model in the company, and it is an epic hero, so you can't field it, because there are more epic heroes than 'normal' warriors (which are not heroes or upgrades) in the company, given that the only thing in the company is an epic hero!

Clearly there must be a different reasoning here, otherwise if you can put a hero in a Mumak, you cannot field Monstrous Heroes.

- V -
24-04-2010, 20:05
@ ForgottenLore: Please quote the rules correctly ;), not meant as an insult, more to point out the importance of discussing from what is actually written.

"Some individual monsters are so large that a single monster is considered to be a company unto itself." <-- Fluff

"Even so it is not necessary for a monster to have a moment tray - its own enormous base is quite sufficient. We will be discussing the role of monsters later - for now all we need to know is that no trays are required for them." <-- The rule

The thing underlined, is what I meant. An annoying habit in the WOTR book is that fluff is not clearly separated from the actual rules. Which means we have to separate them our selves, which again creates the problem that we have to agree upon which things we look away from, when we are discussing rules.

ForgottenLore
25-04-2010, 00:15
Reinholt - Monsters aren't Epic Heroes, they are just Heroes. Even the ones that have epic abilities specify that they may call those abilities AS IF they were epic heroes.

V - WHAAAT????? :confused: :wtf: I seriously don't know where to go with that. Company is a mechanical, game rules concept, it has nothing whatsoever to do with fluff. Do you just get to ignore certain parts of the rulebook? The very fact that the next sentence references the first shows that they are part of the same concept. "Even so" indicates that that sentence is continuing the thought of the previous one.

Do you consider "A tray, and all the models upon it, are treated as a single entity for the purposes of the rules.", from the same page to be fluff?

How about "Remember that unlike other companies, monsters, such as Mordor Trolls, are mounted on circular bases..." (p.34) is that fluff?

"A flying monster can fly over other companies (both friendly and enemy)..." (p34) is that fluff? If so, flying monsters are slowed by difficult terrain because that is the only sentence that says differently.

Page 24 says monsters are companies. Other rules support this by referring to monsters as companies. I don't see any grounds to argue that monsters are not companies. Companies that operate under certain special rules, but still companies.

dtjunkie19
25-04-2010, 06:44
Pg 68, gray box titled infantry or cavalry.

The box talks about how epic heroes can be either infantry or cavalry. It does not mention they can change to type monster.

That does it for me.

- V -
25-04-2010, 09:20
@ forgottenlore: Well my point was that if monsters was not considered companies, a thought I see is far fetched an alien to you, then Epic Heroes would not be able to join them, as they would have no company to be put in.

Yes I think there is a difference between "fluff" and rules. Giving the example of page 24, this it how I read it:

Companies and formations
Warriors are organised into companies. A single company is treated as single entity, casualties suffered by the company are represented by removing models, which directly correlates to their effectiveness in battle.

Movement Trays
Each company will have a tray, with the following minimum dimensions: ...

Monsters
It is not necessary for a monster to have a tray.

Everything else is fluff, an explanation of the rules or not important to the understanding of the rules.

ThrowN
25-04-2010, 15:34
Pg 68, gray box titled infantry or cavalry.

The box talks about how epic heroes can be either infantry or cavalry. It does not mention they can change to type monster.

That does it for me.

For me too. Nice find!

gork or maybe mork
26-04-2010, 19:27
How do you guys use khandish foot troops? I've recently switched from mordor to fallen realms, and have found them a bit underwhelming compared to orcs with 2h weapons

Nu Fenix
26-04-2010, 19:51
Never tried them - If I'm going to pay for metal, I want to get the best effect for my hard earned cash. So in Fallen, that money went to Half Trolls, and would be closely followed by Arbalesters.

How many are you using, and in what way? Because they don't have the numbers, I imagine they would be better as a flanking/supportive force. Would they be a prime target for Strength from Corruption, or do the losses they suffer seem too high?

gork or maybe mork
26-04-2010, 20:29
I was using six companies as flankers, but they got wiped out by shooting after getting only one round of combat in (none in the 2nd game). My problem is that they cant take 9co like orcs, and so die that much quicker. Also, in fallen realms lists I use khamul with my half trolls (the glory of a club that allows count as) and so cant give the variags the save

Nu Fenix
26-04-2010, 20:44
Then the best I can think of is that they are shooting a 25 point company formation then something more expensive.

They seem to be inbetween Mordor Orcs and Morannon Orcs, trying to do both and ending up as neither.

If they had Pathfinder, most likely Woodland, then they may have more going for them as that is something Fallen lack.