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guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 10:11
hi


ok this is not a typical marine whinge thread (Wahh wahh i cant walk down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh)

no this thread is just here to state that i am pissed off with the amount of anti-MEQ weapons

no dont take me wrong i dont mind vespids they are fair, they only have a short range and I wanted the IG AP3 weapons

but the TS weapons and these new SM weapons are just to far

i play SM because i want an army that is tough its the same reasons that i play tau and Chaos




its somthing i look for same as people choose armies for the tanks or the large numbers or they choose a fast army ect



so what is your opinion?

Marshal Sinclair
08-04-2009, 10:14
If you think there are too many AP3 weapons it the game it is time you started a real army, like the IG. There are only a small handful of weapons that allow them a save. :rolleyes:

IJW
08-04-2009, 10:15
Actually... my opinion is that your whinge is rather close to "Wahh wahh i cant walk down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh". ;)

AP3 or better weapons are still pretty rare, and also tend to be rather expensive in points.

Akuma
08-04-2009, 10:19
"AP3 or better weapons are still pretty rare, and also tend to be rather expensive in points."

Well there is no Troops Selection unit that packs AP3 weapons. Thay are limited to squads. And currently there are 2 squads in the game that have them.

One - Sternguard ( quite nice AP weapn because of 4S ) and Storm Troopers ( but I can assure you that you wont see many of those in tournaments ;) )

I wouldnt say that there is any incerease in the number of AP3 weapons that I would call significant. 2 units just doesnt cut it. At least IMHO

Marshal Sinclair
08-04-2009, 10:21
Sternguard, Vespid, Thousand Sons, Storm Troopers, off the top of my head.

Mozzamanx
08-04-2009, 10:24
Yes, and of those squads:

- You ignore every other save in the Stormtroopers army
- You can counter Sternguard with your own
- Vespid are horribad and almost never seen
- Thousand Sons are a genuine threat. Luckily, they go down just as quickly as any other marine.

Dakkagor
08-04-2009, 10:25
So the OP says


ok this is not a typical marine whinge thread (Wahh wahh i cant walk down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh)

and then says


no this thread is just here to state that i am pissed off with the amount of anti-MEQ weapons . . . i play SM because i want an army that is tough its the same reasons that i play tau and Chaos

whuh? Maybe you'd prefer it if we armed our troops with catapults firing chewed up paper pellets, would that make marines tough enough for you? With the heavy cover bias of 5th ed, I'm surprised you are even worried. When in doubt, hunker down. A 4+ cover save is plenty, and most things that could take your cover save away can't get through your armour.


If you think there are too many AP3 weapons it the game it is time you started a real army, like the IG. There are only a small handful of weapons that allow them a save.

amen brother! I play orks, I forget they even get a save, thats how often I get to use it!

Shadowphrakt
08-04-2009, 10:27
Yes, and of those squads:

- You ignore every other save in the Stormtroopers army
- You can counter Sternguard with your own
- Vespid are horribad and almost never seen
- Thousand Sons are a genuine threat. Luckily, they go down just as quickly as any other marine.

except fo the 4 or 5 up invulnerable save. I always forget which it is.

Radium
08-04-2009, 10:34
Don't forget dark reapers.

But it's only a couple of units in the game, compared to everyone having an AP 5 gun (thus ignoring IG/Ork/nid saves) or having wide acces to AP 4 guns (killing all other xenos).

It's not so bad. And then there's always cover.

Bekenel
08-04-2009, 10:35
Even against Marines, I use Hellfire, not the Venegence rounds. The risk with the Gets Hot! is too much for me (and especially my luck when it comes to Overheats..)

Plus I imagine AP3 weapons will increase and AP2/1 weapons will be more expensive/rarer. After all, the most common anti-Marine weapons are AP2 or AP1 (Lascannon, Plasma variants, Melta). It's only recently that AP3 has increased - before the Marine book, the only AP3 I can think of was the Battlecannon (and Orkish ripoffs Killkannon and Boomgun), the Vespid weapon, Dark Reaper missiles, Krak missiles.. All of which are rare to see - the Vespid and Ork weapons (at least in my area), very expensive (Dark Reapers) or not enough shots (Krak missiles). The Battle Cannon would be the exception, since Guard love dem Leman Russes.

But uh my point is AP3 more common, AP2 and AP1 less common or more expensive. I think.

onlainari
08-04-2009, 10:39
guillimansknight don't you honestly think a lot of guns in the 40k universe should ignore space marine armor?

I mean space marine armor is pretty damn good and all, but with the technology available will of course there will be guns that melt it.

As for balance issues, if you are losing to AP3 weapons you just need to become a better player and stop "Wahh wahh i cant walk down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh".

captain ceaser
08-04-2009, 10:56
Im going to step in here and help the op out a little.

I do think that through all the editions iv played (since 2nd) there does seem to be a creep towards marine killing guns becoming more commonplace untill the nxt edition comes out. This is just a feeling that iv always had.

Now i agree wholeheartedly that marines should not walk up the table and auto win blah blah but marines are supposed to be tough and well armored(which is why they are a small elite army) and should not have to hug cover all the time. This is realistic i agree but not very fluffy. Plus this kind of grates on me as what your saying is that marines 3+ save becomes kinda redundant and that they should get 4+ saves instead.

While again i agree that guard, orks ect dont get many saves thay have masses of troops that can absorb the amount of fire comming their way wheras the marines havnt so i really dont think that arguement holds up very well. They also can have Nob bikers of death, 3-1 Russ squadrons ect and havnt the guard also just received that new flame tank and plasma cannons of doom tank? Marine/terminator squad? Goodbye.

Just my view on the subject.

Grimtuff
08-04-2009, 11:16
except fo the 4 or 5 up invulnerable save. I always forget which it is.

I take it you've never just shot them with Bolters then....? :eyebrows: TS are just 25pt tactical marines to AP4 or more weapons.

IJW
08-04-2009, 11:35
Now i agree wholeheartedly that marines should not walk up the table and auto win blah blah but marines are supposed to be tough and well armored(which is why they are a small elite army) and should not have to hug cover all the time. This is realistic i agree but not very fluffy.
No, Marines advancing through the open and ignoring cover is exactly the opposite - fluffy but not realistic.

ehlijen
08-04-2009, 11:57
Marines are tough. That increased T they're sporting means that most weapons have a harder time even wounding them, before saves start even mattering. You need assault cannons and up to not have a difference between wouding marines and wounding guardsmen.

As to advancing through fire at the enemy? Yep, marines do that...if and when their supposedly also superior tactical assesment skills tell them that it's worth the risk, and those situations usually occur outside the scope of the game (ie, the battle is so onesided it's not worth playing). When the incoming fire proves too much for that (for example in a situation likely to be portrayed in a game of 40k), they'll know how to duck their genetically engineered heads into cover.

Corrode
08-04-2009, 12:02
This is all really just an argument for a proper AS modifier being implemented, rather than this AP crap. Saves being binary really sucks, especially when you get to the level of AP3 and below.

Rirekon
08-04-2009, 12:17
This is all really just an argument for a proper AS modifier being implemented, rather than this AP crap. Saves being binary really sucks, especially when you get to the level of AP3 and below.

Agreed - it's a silly system which produces some very strange effects.
For example that gun Warpspiders use is S6 AP- which means that it's as effective against flak armour as spitting but goes through vehicles like a plasmagun... seriously what the hell?!

Bloodknight
08-04-2009, 12:28
This is all really just an argument for a proper AS modifier being implemented, rather than this AP crap. Saves being binary really sucks, especially when you get to the level of AP3 and below.

We used to have this. Imagine the whining if they went back to the old ways. Nobody really gets an armour save then. Armies with bad armour who don't get a save now won't feel the difference, but Marine players would probably be pretty miffed if they got saves between 4+ and 6+ vs basic weaponry, and still none vs the heavy stuff. There's a reason why people didn't use tac marines in 2nd edition, but tended to go very very terminator heavy. Power armour sucked badly, carapace wasn't worth buying, and flak meant that you didn't get a save vs almost everything (just like now, except that it also didn't do squat in CC vs anything but Grots and Guardsmen).

Lord Damocles
08-04-2009, 12:29
Word up,


Ok this is not a typical Guard whinge thread (Wahh wahh I cant charge down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh).

No, this thread is just here to state that I am pissed off with the amount of anti-GEQ weapons.

Now dont take me wrong, I dont mind Guardians they are fair, they only have a short range and I wanted the IG AP5 weapons.

But the Marine weapons and these new DE weapons are just too far.

I play Guard because I want an army that is manly; its the same reason that I play Tau and Chaos.



Its somthing I look for; same as people choose armies for the tanks or the large numbers or they choose a fast army ect.



So what is your opinion?


:eyebrows: /Sarcasm

StormWulfen
08-04-2009, 12:31
"- Thousand Sons are a genuine threat. Luckily, they go down just as quickly as any other marine."

what marines with 4+ inv saves go down as easy as marines without?:eyebrows:

i think not.


"I take it you've never just shot them with Bolters then....? TS are just 25pt tactical marines to AP4 or more weapons."

ever fought and entire army of them? you soon realise that the "shoot them with bolters" thing doesnt work to well when he is doing the same thing but killing a marine with almost every shot :cries:

IJW
08-04-2009, 12:37
what marines with 4+ inv saves go down as easy as marines without?:eyebrows:
Against the vast majority of weapons in the game, yes. Orks in particular will not notice any difference.

Bunnahabhain
08-04-2009, 12:42
I take it you've never just shot them with Bolters then....? :eyebrows: TS are just 25pt tactical marines to AP4 or more weapons.
And 3++ storm shields of cheese are just 2+ saves, when you bathe the unit in 18 hits from the flamer command squad of doom.

With an intelligent use of cover, 3+ saves are very useful. I'm not sure what the op is whining about

The AP system is less than ideal, but it is gradually improving, with more AP3 weapons, and a lesser usage of AP1/2, which makes 2+ saves more useful...

I don't care, I have more ordnance toting tanks than is reasonable. Pick an AP, and the IG have a turret mounted weapon of some kind that do it....

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 12:44
TS are slloooowww.

Vespid.. you didn't just seriously say that Vespid are fair did you?

As a Vespid user I can safely say the only reason I'm using them is because I'm too broke to buy more Crisis Suits.

You are complaining? About AP3 being "too plentiful?"

Please, Your most basic guns ignore alot of people's armor saves out of the gate. And are str4 against T3.

It's not the games fault that you refuse to use any form of actual tactics to keep your marines alive.

Hypaspist
08-04-2009, 13:03
.....
no this thread is just here to state that i am pissed off with the amount of anti-MEQ weapons ....*snip*


Make better use of cover?

Honestly though, I really don't empathise with your viewpoint here. Bolters negate the save of many basic troopers of other armies (guard, orks, gaunts, guardians, DE warriors, the list can go on....)

If you are so concerned by low AP weaponry then alternative Tactics may be required........,
The only reason I can percieve you would have trouble with the low ap weaponry is if you did a Blackadder and marched very slowly directly towards the enemy... (contrary to popular belief if its the same thing you have done 17 times before, it *isn't* the last thing they will expect you to do this time..)

It *does* sound a bit like you are propelling teddy bears skywards here...

The_Outsider
08-04-2009, 13:05
Lol, marines.

DE say "Hi".

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 13:08
Im going to step in here and help the op out a little.

I do think that through all the editions iv played (since 2nd) there does seem to be a creep towards marine killing guns becoming more commonplace untill the nxt edition comes out. This is just a feeling that iv always had.

Now i agree wholeheartedly that marines should not walk up the table and auto win blah blah but marines are supposed to be tough and well armored(which is why they are a small elite army) and should not have to hug cover all the time. This is realistic i agree but not very fluffy. Plus this kind of grates on me as what your saying is that marines 3+ save becomes kinda redundant and that they should get 4+ saves instead.

While again i agree that guard, orks ect dont get many saves thay have masses of troops that can absorb the amount of fire comming their way wheras the marines havnt so i really dont think that arguement holds up very well. They also can have Nob bikers of death, 3-1 Russ squadrons ect and havnt the guard also just received that new flame tank and plasma cannons of doom tank? Marine/terminator squad? Goodbye.

Just my view on the subject.

thnk you

And may i point out not only marines suffer - like i said

and on the point of " your bolters ignore our armour so its fair wahh! wahh!"
i play DE i know about playing without saves you use cover, which isnt very good for marines or other MEQs because you suddenly become only a little better than a much cheaper more numerous foe who is also in cover.



and no i dont march down the middle i said that is what most marine noobs complain about

htj
08-04-2009, 13:18
and on the point of " your bolters ignore our armour so its fair wahh! wahh!"

But then, they are the standard issue weapon. Most AP3 weapons aren't in such a majority.

It's Dark Reapers that scare me. Ooh, how I hate them.

the1stpip
08-04-2009, 13:27
And nobody really mentioned the ultimate anti-MEQ army, Dark Eldar.

So many AP 2 and 3 weapons, whnever I fac a MEQ player, I just rub my hands with glee.

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 13:29
And nobody really mentioned the ultimate anti-MEQ army, Dark Eldar.

So many AP 2 and 3 weapons, whnever I fac a MEQ player, I just rub my hands with glee.

same though i just prefer using mass infantry and cover

Frontier
08-04-2009, 13:33
Seriously, have people forgotten about cover in this edition? Yeah there are anti-MEQ weapons. Big deal. Cover. Cover. Cover. You may not get the 3+ (unless you use the bolster skill from the Techmarine), but you are still getting a save. Secondly, Transports. Welcome back to the age of the armored cavalry. It's worked out pretty well for me, for the most part. I nullify the anti-MEQness, and still play a competitive game. I still have some issues with assaults, but that's my problem to correct.

In short, Burn the Unclean, Burn the Heretic, Kill lots of Ork.

Hypaspist
08-04-2009, 13:36
Well, two questions present themselves then.
(Assuming your complaint stems from facing the low ap weaponry on the table, and not an objection in principal.......)

Are your opponents tooling themselves specifically against Marines?
Is your force balanced to take account of the potential for anti Marine weaponry? (a battlecannon can ruin anybody's day)

I play predominantly low number power armour armies (RW, DW, Grey Knights) and Low AP hurts, most armies can equip it, therefore you need to be prepared for it.

Against the fact that cover is 'less good' for marines than others with worse armour saves it should also be 'easier' for your marines to make cover (particularly if you are bringing your own, ie vehicles), and that cover save is protecting more points, so to some extent it's actually more vital that you make good use of it.
Without low ap weapons the only way non 3+ save armies would have of reliably taking down the enemy would be through weight of fire, which is still a viable alternative to low ap weapons, it's often just the case that low ap weapons also have hight strength, and are also good for taking out tanks as well as men (and as vehicles became slightly more survivable in 5th, thus the amount of anti-vehicle weaponry is bound to increase).

So what style of marines do you play and how do you employ your tactics?

Aerebus
08-04-2009, 13:45
Man, I like the way you put the words "Warhammer 40k" and "realistic" in one sentence ;)

Let's look at armous a little bit closer.

Space Marine: Fullbody Armour, hermetically sealed, powers the Marines own strength = 3+AS. His armour is high-tech material, got his own soul and will withstand most threats.

Catachan Junglefigher: Muscle-Shirt, Armypants (both made of cotton probably) = no armour - stil got AS.

Realism anyone?

(AS3+ is rly nice imho)

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 13:49
thnk you

And may i point out not only marines suffer - like i said

and on the point of " your bolters ignore our armour so its fair wahh! wahh!"
i play DE i know about playing without saves you use cover, which isnt very good for marines or other MEQs because you suddenly become only a little better than a much cheaper more numerous foe who is also in cover.



and no i dont march down the middle i said that is what most marine noobs complain about

And yet you are still BS4, Ws4, Str4, T4 Ld8 (or 9), and 3+ against the vast majority of weapons shot at you. That's not mentioning the power of ATSKNF and combat squads. And have special and heavy weapons, frag grenades and bolt pistols.

Not to mention that you get cover -and armor saves-. (take cover save vs the Ap3 or 2 gun. armor against the rest) You don't pick "one or the other" anymore. And you are stupidly resilient for the pt cost.

I play Necrons, Cover is where it's at. I also have been known to have a dalliance with BT.

Your tactics should be more important than the army you are fielding. Marines aren't nearly that expensive. (Try playing Grey Knights if you want to talk about being out numbered then we'll talk) Infact it's not all that uncommon for Marines to out number Eldar on the battlefield, or Tau for that matter.

The point is, you shouldn't be whining because you are forced to use your brain when you play. Like the rest of us have to when we play. Just marching up the middle and not taking cover is not using your brain, when you play.

arch_inquisitor
08-04-2009, 14:12
I would normally be jumping to the defense of the marines, but I just don't see that this one is such a big deal.

Cover! like every one else said if you don't like the cover save then take one of the 3 units that have the bolster defenses ability, or take all three and make all the cover on your side of the table an impregnable fortress.

Face it the marines still got it good, even with the new dex's. We have enough toys that we can deal with just about anything.

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 14:42
just goes to show you cant please all the people all the time doesnt it?

im mean yeah we have straight 4s across most of our stats for our basic troops and yeah we have some nice toys to back us up and yeah we get characters from other chapters but if they are painted the same colour as us its ok and yeah these characters give is FREE UPGRADES, and yeah free twin linked flamers and melta weapons are nice and yeah our storm shields are batter than everybody else in the imperium and yeah our transports are cheaper and can carry more troops than other imperial forces but damn theres a lot of ap3 weapons out there! how can we beat that?

when your a marine its supposed to be like playing halo on easy mode dont you know? every single marine is meant to be able to walk across the middle of the board, get shot about a thousand times and still beat the enemy to death with his bare hands

ok i admit i play guard and as i guard player i can say whats with all these ap5 weapons? thats not fair! how am i supposed to beat that lol

Aerebus
08-04-2009, 14:45
I think that ppl whine about AP3 and Marines because its one of the few armies were the AP matterst. Does an Imperial Guardman care AP? No, most guns will instantkill. Does a xeno care if a gun has ap2 or ap5? Nope.

Just because it matters it don't has to be negative.

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 14:45
just goes to show you cant please all the people all the time doesnt it?

im mean yeah we have straight 4s across most of our stats for our basic troops and yeah we have some nice toys to back us up and yeah we get characters from other chapters but if they are painted the same colour as us its ok and yeah these characters give is FREE UPGRADES, and yeah free twin linked flamers and melta weapons are nice and yeah our storm shields are batter than everybody else in the imperium and yeah our transports are cheaper and can carry more troops than other imperial forces but damn theres a lot of ap3 weapons out there! how can we beat that?

when your a marine its supposed to be like playing halo on easy mode dont you know? every single marine is meant to be able to walk across the middle of the board, get shot about a thousand times and still beat the enemy to death with his bare hands

ok i admit i play guard and as i guard player i can say whats with all these ap5 weapons? thats not fair! how am i supposed to beat that lol

with massed numbers?

but my argument isnt that i want to walk down the map i just dont want to get bogged down in cover


how to kill marines 101 get them in a firefight with lots of cover and bring some artillery

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 14:49
Artillery doesn't deny cover.

Moving through cover isn't hard at all. Especially with Rhinos on the field. Just hop in a Rhino, move towards destination. Step two pop smoke. Disembark and unload into your enemy's face. Then move after them and assault.

Numbers mean nothing with guard. (just like in a real military situation) the only saving grace of horde armies is cover. As it should be.

There's so -few- weapons that deny the 3+ club saves that really it's not even really an issue at all.

Your issue -is- that you just want to walk down the map. You don't want to use cover.... that = walking down the map through No Man's Land.

You don't -walk- anywhere unless it's to the next area of cover. Use -real tactics-. You hop in a transport and then fire at close range.

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 14:55
an army is defined not only by its strengths but by its weakness as well, in order to attain victory you must focus on your strength and minimise your weakness

remember that marines excell in close range firefights and close assaults, yeah i can takoe over 100 guardsmen and some tanks but they dont help when there is a bunch of marines tying up my fire support

cover is more impertant in 5th ed than ever before, it doesnt matter who you are, from the marine to the eldar guardian to ork boy, everybody must use cover

The_Outsider
08-04-2009, 14:55
Tactics!

I don't think you quite understand how marines work...........

arch_inquisitor
08-04-2009, 14:58
If you do it right you should only be in cover at the end of your move, opponent shoots AP 3 you gain the cover save then shoot/assault on your next turn. That is hardly a bog down.

Besides with marines just droppod an assault squad in their ranks thats what their for, to cause mayhem and confusion amongst gunlines so that your marines aren't worried about a hail of fire while they move up.

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 15:01
I don't think you quite understand how marines work...........

Oh I understand.

If it -might- kill Stupid Marine players they whine and whatever bad thing it was gets to be nerfed. *cough star cannon* *cough stupidly expensive Leman Russes cough cough*

And then they get a buff ontop of that.

captain ceaser
08-04-2009, 15:02
"No, Marines advancing through the open and ignoring cover is exactly the opposite - fluffy but not realistic."

Thats exactly what i meant

The_Outsider
08-04-2009, 15:03
Oh I understand.

If it -might- kill Stupid Marine players they whine and whatever bad thing it was gets to be nerfed. *cough star cannon* *cough stupidly expensive Leman Russes cough cough*

And then they get a buff ontop of that.

Thats the spirit! Consider the starcannon nerf an "executive choice in the rebalancing of eldar heavy weapons in the new codex to replace the aging entries of the old codex".

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 15:03
Funny I seem to recall alot of cover hugging and utilization going on in the Horus Heresy novels. Doesn't get much more fluffy than a novel.

I know how Eldar players feel now with the SC. Heck I bet you guys were -really- ticked when the whole idea of them being a defensive weapon on your vehicles was taken away thanks to the 5e rules. (I know I certainly was with my Smart Missiles with my Tau) The New Russ with her plas cannons is looking almost prohibitively expensive (or having any sponsons for that matter). And I bet I know why.... because it can pop marines.

I bet when the Tau dex comes out, our plasma will some how be Ap4, (and the Ion cannon too) and Vespid will be double in point cost.

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 15:05
russes are about to become more expensive.........although we do now get to fire with everything we have (ordinance, sponsoon and hull weapon) if the rumours are to be believed

the marine whinge shall begon in ernest! wtf your demolisher is firing a demolisher cannon, two plasma cannons and a lascannon at me! wtf you have 3 of them!

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 15:08
russes are about to become more expensive.........although we do now get to fire with everything we have (ordinance, sponsoon and hull weapon) if the rumours are to be believed

the marine whinge shall begon in ernest! wtf your demolisher is firing a demolisher cannon, two plasma cannons and a lascannon at me! wtf you have 3 of them!

while conveniently ignoring the fact that it costs like a Land Raider in the process I'm sure. new demolisher 205 pts with Plascannons -without- the hull mounted gun. Probably looking at 230 pts for that ****. 215 for a normal russ equipped the same way. The russ was over costed before by around 20 pts... Lumbering I feel is worth 10 to 20 pts.. it's cost to field should have remained the same (since it does come with a movement drawback after all) over all.. not be 30 pts or more expensive.

Lordmonkey
08-04-2009, 15:08
ok this is not a typical marine whinge thread (Wahh wahh i cant walk down the middle of the table and auto-win wahh)

No offence, but yes it is. If you are worried about armour saves, use cover.

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 15:24
not ignoring, i just dont like saying how expensive the tanks are getting, it makes me sad lol

in all seriousness yeah the infantry are getting marginally cheaper so there will be more of them and tanks are more expensive so they guard are looking more and more like a WW2 russian infantry swarm, i for one will be using the tanks from imperial armour 1 as well as the codex, if its in both books i use the codex, if its only in IA 1 i use that price, thats fair

back on topic: marines are supposed to have superior training, and all military training tells you to use cover, it doesnt matter how good you are or how weak your opponent is, you use cover, you dont just walk down the middle of the board

Bekenel
08-04-2009, 15:29
while conveniently ignoring the fact that it costs like a Land Raider in the process I'm sure. new demolisher 205 pts with Plascannons -without- the hull mounted gun. Probably looking at 230 pts for that ****. 215 for a normal russ equipped the same way. The russ was over costed before by around 20 pts... Lumbering I feel is worth 10 to 20 pts.. it's cost to field should have remained the same (since it does come with a movement drawback after all) over all.. not be 30 pts or more expensive.
Don't forget the improved Side Armour. That extra point means that outflanking units with S6 weapons are now going to struggle to damage Russes, which will upset a fair few of my local Eldar players.

Also, Plasma Cannons on a regular Russ should be expensive. After all, if I can fire a Battlecannon, Lascannon and 2 Plasma Cannons at a Marine squad, I'm going to do a stupid amount of damage. That kind of firepower needs to be balanced through cost and through the Lumbering movement rule. If you need somethign with speed, then the Hellhound varients, Chimeras and Valkeryies are what you're after. Especially since some of those can carry objective takers.

The usual Russ, with 3 Heavy Bolters, has gone up by I believe 15 points? Those points are paying for more armour and incredible special rules. I'm more than willing to pay that, what with the savings in points I'm getting on my basic troopers and Chimeras..

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 15:34
not ignoring, i just dont like saying how expensive the tanks are getting, it makes me sad lol

in all seriousness yeah the infantry are getting marginally cheaper so there will be more of them and tanks are more expensive so they guard are looking more and more like a WW2 russian infantry swarm, i for one will be using the tanks from imperial armour 1 as well as the codex, if its in both books i use the codex, if its only in IA 1 i use that price, thats fair

back on topic: marines are supposed to have superior training, and all military training tells you to use cover, it doesnt matter how good you are or how weak your opponent is, you use cover, you dont just walk down the middle of the board


yes but you have to chose between them in the game which isnt realistic

Bekenel
08-04-2009, 15:39
And enemies that are the manifestation of someone's anger is realistic? :p

It's a wargame. It has to make certain rules which go against "realism" for simplicity etc. In any case, most of the time it's an either/or for Saves. If you're forced to use a cover save, then your armour is useless most of the time. If you have an Armour Save, then you use it - no point taking a 4+ cover when you have a 2+ normal save (plus I believe you always have to use the best save no matter what).

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 15:45
whats not realistic? the exterminator is in both books so i use the codex rules and points cost, the cyclops demolition vehicle is only in IA 1 so use that

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 15:49
Don't forget the improved Side Armour. That extra point means that outflanking units with S6 weapons are now going to struggle to damage Russes, which will upset a fair few of my local Eldar players.

Also, Plasma Cannons on a regular Russ should be expensive. After all, if I can fire a Battlecannon, Lascannon and 2 Plasma Cannons at a Marine squad, I'm going to do a stupid amount of damage. That kind of firepower needs to be balanced through cost and through the Lumbering movement rule. If you need somethign with speed, then the Hellhound varients, Chimeras and Valkeryies are what you're after. Especially since some of those can carry objective takers.
.

It would do a stupid amount of damage, to a squad dumb enough not to be in cover. (like the Ops apparently). Cover with both it's increased effectiveness and plentiful state that it currently exists in means those awesome ap weapons have lost quite a bit of their punch. They aren't worth more than they -used to be- is my point. Lumbering and the +1v is worth around what the -base cost- increase of what the Russ was given. Not an increase of sponson costs to go with it.

Bunnahabhain
08-04-2009, 16:08
....
in all seriousness yeah the infantry are getting marginally cheaper so there will be more of them and tanks are more expensive so they guard are looking more and more like a WW2 russian infantry swarm...

I have about 8,000 pts of guardsmen, and several companies of WW2 Russian infantry. Trust me, they really are nothing like each other.

Lumbering behemoth only allows you to fire the turret, and whatever you could normally, so if you intend to move, that is only 1 lascannon/plasma cannon/heavy bolter. If you can't at least be in cover from most of those guns, then you deserve to take the hits- The hull mounted ones are low enough any cover will do, the turret can shoot over some stuff.


If the OP wants to see how powerful AP3 is, borrow some guardsmen, and try a list with 3 squads of storm troopers, and whatever options you like for them. I bet a relatively normal russ, which costs the same as a squad of 10, will be far more useful, against far more armies, and kill more marines.

Ianos
08-04-2009, 16:15
It would do a stupid amount of damage, to a squad dumb enough not to be in cover. (like the Ops apparently). Cover with both it's increased effectiveness and plentiful state that it currently exists in means those awesome ap weapons have lost quite a bit of their punch. They aren't worth more than they -used to be- is my point. Lumbering and the +1v is worth around what the -base cost- increase of what the Russ was given. Not an increase of sponson costs to go with it.

I semi-agree with you on that one (bear in mind i agree with most of your statements in this thread, as i usually do anyway;)). The new MBTs are more expensive and cover is more abundant, but they also have more armor and in 5th they are also VERY hard to kill with the new damage table and cover available to them. Also the new blast rules will at minimum break even with enemy cover.

So in essence they get all the good stuff from 5th and no real hindrances, plus they get squadron deployment, tank aces and other gimmicks, i think some upping in cost is required here, and for the record i love and will play more guard in the future.

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 16:18
If the OP wants to see how powerful AP3 is, borrow some guardsmen, and try a list with 3 squads of storm troopers, and whatever options you like for them. I bet a relatively normal russ, which costs the same as a squad of 10, will be far more useful, against far more armies, and kill more marines.

Tanks ?? Tanks?? my marines dont see tanks they see smoking wrecks

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 16:19
always nice to meet an optimist..........although yes marines do have some nice anti tank

Brother Gabriel
08-04-2009, 16:24
Why arent your marines in a Landraider, where they belong? Or in a Rhino... Better at contesting, holding everything.
3 Squads of 5 Marines in safety of a tank will get you through the day. Add 2 Landraiders, some Terminators, a Lybrarian and some Landspeeders and maybe a Predator and you have a very strong army that doesnt care about AP3.
Oh and never leave home without MM attack (assault?) bikes.

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 16:25
always nice to meet an optimist..........although yes marines do have some nice anti tank

an optimist?? dear god no thats why i have units that cannot fail to blow up a tank given my luck

Popsical
08-04-2009, 16:31
Boo bloody hoo! my marines have to use girly cover sometimes! LMAO

Toughness 4 and power armour! The chance to have FNP too!
Oh thats not durable enough?

What more do you want?

Us sisters players get T3 so all weapons wound easy, we cost too much and cant drop on top of our enemy either.

Power armour is great on chics they appreciate its durability.

Stop being a sissy and fight like a real man!

Ps : not using cover is just walking toward the enemy and hoping that your going to weather the storm. Wow what tactics! have you read Field marshall Douglas Haigs military strategy doctrines too often? :D

guillimansknight
08-04-2009, 16:46
dear god the walk up the middle part was a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!

Captain Micha
08-04-2009, 16:48
So this whole thread was a joke?

htj
08-04-2009, 16:55
So this whole thread was a joke?

Pretty much.

Popsical
08-04-2009, 16:59
I never mentioned "middle" lol :)

Modern military tactics require Challenger tanks to use cover for gods sake. :)

Ap 3 is fine, battle cannons have had it for ever, and in the past youve not been blessed with such funky cover saves and FNP (red scorpions variants)

There are maybe a dozen Ap 3 guns in the game (non apoc) thats what? two per codex on average. Its hardly an epidemic.

GW do each codex better than the last, as a rule of thumb. So if you dont like it dont play the game, coz they arent gonna change for your sake or mine.

Sorry bud but as i have played since 1987 and the marines have always been the best or very near too, i cant feel sorry for your problem. :)

At least you have a shiny new codex! Some of us expect the marines to get another before we get ours!

edward3h
08-04-2009, 17:08
I remember when Marines were T3, power armour gave a 4+ save, and lasguns (and most other standard weapons) had a -1 save modifier.

Ah, nostalgia.

Mannimarco
08-04-2009, 17:12
and power axes had a -2 save, and terminators got to take their save on 2 dice or somthing

those were the days

onlainari
08-04-2009, 17:16
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Things_We_Don%27t_Miss_about_2nd_Edition_Warhammer _40%2C000

the1stpip
08-04-2009, 18:15
I think the major point we ar all missing, is that when half the armies you are likely to meet ar wearing Power Armour or equivalent (SM, CSM, GK, SoB, Necrons) people will prepare for that by loading up on low AP weapons.

When people start using othr races and stop relying on 3+ armour saves, the world will be a better place.

g0ddy
08-04-2009, 18:17
If it has an invulnerable save, shoot it with a bolter.
If it wears power armour, shoot it with a bolter.
If its bigger than you are, shoot it with a bolter.
If its sneaky, and get a good cover save, shoot it with a bolter.

'My' marines live by the age old adage of...

"When all else fails, shoot it with a bolter."

See where I am going with this? If someone wants to spend 16 pts per model on storm troopers, or twenty+ points per model on thousands sons. All the more power to them, USE YOUR BRAIN, and shoot it with a bolter.

People who build Anti-MEQ (gawd I hate that term...) armies, or people who march up across a field in the middle of the board and expect to win, are those very same people who complain about troops with 4+ invulnerable saves and troops with AP3 guns... If you stop relying on your crutches to get the job done, and go back to the basics - you wont run into any problems.

There are very few things in the game that bolters cant solve, the rest can be solved with power fists. Just apply each of them where appropriate and in appropriate quantities - and youll survive another day to serve the god-emperor.

~ zilla

onlainari
08-04-2009, 18:28
I assume you don't play Tau that much zilla.

AmBlam
08-04-2009, 19:11
/general agreement with op to some extent

Flying Toaster
08-04-2009, 19:21
Don't forget dark reapers

It's not so bad. And then there's always cover.

Exarch with Tempest Launcher and Crack Shot. ;)

Radium
08-04-2009, 20:06
Exarch with Tempest Launcher and Crack Shot. ;)

Don't mention that! It's my little secret ace ;).

Anyhow, those die pretty quickly when faced with heavy bolters (which every marine army seems to bring about a dozen of).

Like most people here I say it's not a problem with the game, but with tactics/opponents.

Kburn
08-04-2009, 20:08
Eh....I think tactical marines are one of the best units to spend in cover. Most other races have to sort of advance due to poor shooting, ie. orks, or cannot stay in it for long, ie. tau. Guard has too many models to stuff into the cover, most of it would go to storm troopers or artillery.

Use cover then! If they use an AP3 weapon, you get a 4+ save, if not, you get a 3+, just buy some rhinos for them if you want mobility. Its a bit unreal if you let them walk down the field weathering fire, people dedicate whole expensive units, ie. death companies, carnifexes, boyz, etc. as fire magnets. If you have a whole army of fire magnets that can fight well against tanks and troops, it would be too imbalanced.

I play nids and blood angels BTW. I almost never use cover for my nids, because i use a living screen of gaunts, and hiding in cover would cause sypnase problems anyway. For my blood angel, I hug terrain like never before even though the whole army is so cc oriented, its just how the game works.

Aerebus
08-04-2009, 22:09
Eh....I think tactical marines are one of the best units to spend in cover. Most other races have to sort of advance due to poor shooting, ie. orks, or cannot stay in it for long, ie. tau. Guard has too many models to stuff into the cover, most of it would go to storm troopers or artillery.
AMEN!


Use cover then! If they use an AP3 weapon, you get a 4+ save, if not, you get a 3+, just buy some rhinos for them if you want mobility. Its a bit unreal if you let them walk down the field weathering fire, people dedicate whole expensive units, ie. death companies, carnifexes, boyz, etc. as fire magnets. If you have a whole army of fire magnets that can fight well against tanks and troops, it would be too imbalanced.
AMEN!


I play nids and blood angels BTW. I almost never use cover for my nids, because i use a living screen of gaunts, and hiding in cover would cause sypnase problems anyway. For my blood angel, I hug terrain like never before even though the whole army is so cc oriented, its just how the game works.
AMEN!

I think the Warhammer onlinegames ruined the Tabletopgame :(

Awilla the Hun
08-04-2009, 22:14
Why has the online game runied the table top game?

And I can understand (just about) what the original poster is saying, but I also disagree. Oddly for an IG player, I use pie plates with extreme moderation, and only once did I ever see them utterly ruin the enemy army. Strangely, that enemy (Sisters of Battle) was employing the General Haig school of tactics espoused by the OP, and didn't even use faith points! (In fairness, he was new to it, and didn't know how to.) Most of the time, they chip away at squads, leaving the real hell to be unleashed by the massive power of my mortars and frag grenades. Now THEY are the weapons to be feared by marine players!

To marine players, I ask them to take heart in the fact that they will get their revenge once they reach rapid fire range, which is almost inevitable if they play anyone who has to take objectives in their games.

Aerebus
08-04-2009, 22:45
Don't get me wrong, mate! I totaly love marines!

With the ruin thingy I wanted to say that all the "new" guys think that the Marines are like in the Online game. As read on the novels, 3 squads Marines can easy hold back hundrets of xenos.

Some of you guys should try the "zeluloyd list" from GW. I think that reflects the skils of the Marines.

Why don't all IG players moan about AP5?

Creeping Dementia
08-04-2009, 22:46
What the hell is a "Whinge"?

Giganthrax
08-04-2009, 22:57
Well there is no Troops Selection unit that packs AP3 weapons. Thay are limited to squads. And currently there are 2 squads in the game that have them.
*cough*thousand sons*cough*

maelstrom66669
09-04-2009, 00:12
Whenever I make an army list, if I dont know who I am facing, I always assume it will be marines, though I dont bring so much AP, as I do a massive quantity of hits to try and work around their armor.

If I show up and its NOT marines, all the better...

But really, AP or not, marines have the best overall armor in the game, there is nothing to WHINE about, but if you really need something, whine about your weakness in cc, it would make alot more sense.

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 00:16
Marines are weak in close combat? Str 4 T4 3+ Sv makes them good in combat.

Bunnahabhain
09-04-2009, 00:30
Why don't all IG players moan about AP5?

As we're perfectly used to not having anything except a cover save, and accept it's just part of the game that some things will punch through our armour, despite what the fluff says about it's wondrous protection.

And not getting a 5+ save is far less annoying than not getting a 3+ save.

And we have AV14 by the bucketload.

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 00:31
Are you defending Marine players whining about having to think about how they play? :confused:

tuebor
09-04-2009, 00:45
What the hell is a "Whinge"?

The British version of a whine.


Why don't all IG players moan about AP5?

Why would we?

*looks at Codex*

Wait, we actually have an armor save? Why did nobody tell me?!

eek107
09-04-2009, 01:00
Don't get me wrong, mate! I totaly love marines!
Why don't all IG players moan about AP5?

Because pretty much everyone except guard infantry has it. :p

AngryAngel
09-04-2009, 04:20
Ok, as a marine player. I have been actually faulted for sticking too close to cover and using it too well. I usually get the comments "Why are you so concerned about moving your units through those buildings, or slinking them behind that rhino, they are marines."

Why ? A good player will take things to punch your armor and know how to do so easily. I'm not saying there are too many weapons/squads that punch marine armor, it is however there in numbers to make a diffrence. If your a marine player, its part of your job to use cover properly and keep your troops alive. Yeah some situations go bad, and then you lose lots of precious marines.

We call that, being in a bit of trouble. It can be worked around, and if you use proper cover you can mitigate much of the ap coming your way. Just be clever, be a marine commander and lead your men smarter. There is in fact a thin line between brave and stupid, try to be brave battle brothers.

Torga_DW
09-04-2009, 04:28
I think the OP needs to play movie marines. They operate exactly the way marines are supposed to on the table top. Just be prepared to lose friends and alienate people.

Bekenel
09-04-2009, 08:36
It would do a stupid amount of damage, to a squad dumb enough not to be in cover. (like the Ops apparently). Cover with both it's increased effectiveness and plentiful state that it currently exists in means those awesome ap weapons have lost quite a bit of their punch. They aren't worth more than they -used to be- is my point. Lumbering and the +1v is worth around what the -base cost- increase of what the Russ was given. Not an increase of sponson costs to go with it.
I'd like to play a game in this mythical state that everyone else on Warseer seems to play. To qualify, my local store has plenty of terrain, we play 25% of the board with terrain etc. Due to water damage a few months back, the staff have had to build more terrain specifically for 5th ed. We have an even mix of area terrain (ie the GW trees and craters), ruins, and impassable stuff (intact buildings and the like).

The only extra changes I've noticed is when one unit shoots through another, and the increased saves in woods and craters. Seriously, everyone talks about how cover saves are incredibly abundant, but I haven't noticed any change. Of course, this is 4x4 boards, 1000 points, but I can't see the dynamics of cover suddenly changing because of one or two extra ruins and another crater.

So that leads me to the next point: cover isn't always available, so sometimes those Marine squads are going to have to be out in the open. Personally that's why I take Rhinos, but my point still stands - people seem to talk about cover saves as if they always get one, like the entire board is area terrain or something.

Popsical
09-04-2009, 09:14
You obviously dont play many tacticaly astute players then im afraid :)

Any good player will use their own lesser units or vehicles or the position of the other players units to provide cover saves as well as the terrain.

I will grant you that this is much harder in 1000 pts tho in fairness :)

I think the OP is saying that all our codexs have too many weapons that kill his weedy underpowered marines. Perhaps he should ask GW to nerf all our codexs to make his better? Surely that is a totally reasonable request :)

Afterall hes only had two new ones since some of us saw one :D

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 09:50
God...I wish my Tau had enough AP 3 in the right places.

Any good player will use their own lesser units or vehicles or the position of the other players units to provide cover saves as well as the terrain.

Marines have lesser units? Rhinos are not always effective cover as a lot of the AP 3 is high Str and if you opponent is the one using the AP 3 hiding in front of them isn't going to work either. Huging terrain might not work if the objective is in the open or in less than 4+ cover.

I do think that the notion of cover being everywhere is idealic and the only tactica help I have seen offered is "Uz all da cova on da board dummy!". With ignorance that the best way to defeat marines is force saves and if a guard tank is throwing 5 str 7 ap 3 blasts a 4+ cover save results in dead marines by the hand full. I mean come on 4+ isn't auto save its half save.
I don't think there is too much ap 3 yet but I do see the distrubing trend of it increasing in shots (cept star cannons.....for now). I also see a lot of Mehrenz is too tough crap as often as Mehrenz is too soft.

Popsical
09-04-2009, 10:04
Ok simple if you dont like ap3 dont play marines!?!

I play sisters and think power armour is great and dont give a monkeys about the alledged ap3 epidemic.

Lets face it some people are never gonna be happy period.

But to expect to stand in the open and just soak up fire with an army is just tactically inept, and totally unchallenging to either your own mind or the enemy who has to face such ground breaking strategies. :)

Cmon guys try cover formations and short dash terrain hopping!

Whoa! jesus with such ideas i must be Rommel or something? (sarcasm) :evilgrin:

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 10:22
Whoa! jesus with such ideas i must be Rommel or something? (sarcasm)
I don't know I think I am the Rommel of space marines. :p
I don't have a problem with ap 3 (usually I'm the one dishing it out) I am just willing to see were some players are coming from.
Of course if necrons can't walk across the board anymore then I think there could be a problem. As walking through fire power is what necrons were supposed to do. Come to think of it weren't the necrons able to walk across the board in 3rd ed. Hmmm....things I guess have changed and those that are having the ap 3 problem need to adapt.
Necrons using cover..... how silly :D

Popsical
09-04-2009, 10:33
The truth is that it has never been faster to cross a battle field than now.
What with running and vehicles being tougher and drop pods not to mention infiltrate/deepstrike.
Marines are the only ones to have all of these and in abundance too.
This means less time to shoot them as they come toward us. Correct?
This means we get less shots. Correct?
So GW gives us more guns that hurt you quicker. Correct?
Its not rocket science. Correct!!!

When your whole army can cross any board in two turns, its brown trousers time for us non CC killing machines. Give us a break we dont have the luxury of all your fancy toys.

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 10:42
The truth is that it has never been faster to cross a battle field than now.
What with running and vehicles being tougher and drop pods not to mention infiltrate/deepstrike.
Marines are the only ones to have all of these and in abundance too.
This means less time to shoot them as they come toward us. Correct?
This means we get less shots. Correct?
So GW gives us more guns that hurt you quicker. Correct?
Its not rocket science. Correct!!!

Is you arguing with me because I think were saying the same stuff. I am just saying I can see anothers point of view.
Besides your not allowing new players and players that are maybe not as good as you or me. If everyone has super mega marine blasting power (not saying this exists...yet) the learning curve will be steeper than hell. So think about the new guys.
Of course I don't think some players realize that the ap 3 spaming is coming from marines usually.

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 10:48
Learning curve... For Marines... ? :lol:

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 10:55
And may i point out not only marines suffer - like i said



Yes they do. Tell me you have an AP3 weapon and as a Guard player this will be my response: Good for you!

Tell me you have an S6 AP3 flamer and I say "So basically you might as well have a normal flamer apart from the fact you're wounding on 2s not 3s now?"

Any army that plays against me and pays points for high AP guns is wasting points.

Yes it is only Marines that suffer as everyone else is used to using cover.



Catachan Junglefigher: Muscle-Shirt, Armypants (both made of cotton probably) = no armour - stil got AS.


Umm actually Catachan clothes, including the trousers are made of Flak. That's the great thing about Flak, you can make anything with it. That "muscle shirt" in the fluff is actually easily capable of stopping any modern day bullet.

40K is a game of Generalisation. Catachans get a 6+ save (assuming you're playing as catatchans) and Cadians get a 5+ save despite having a Flak uniform PLUS Carapace vest, shoulder guards and helemet. Kasrkin add knee, thigh and elbow pads and get 4+?

Unless you play Inquisitor where you can assign armour values to areas of the body it will never be accurate.


with massed numbers?


Ell oh ell (See? Internet speak)

1 flamer, not a heavy flamer, a normal flamer, can easily kill about 12 Guardsmen across multiple squads.

Then you add in the boltguns that they wont get a save off...or the bolt pistols they wont get a save off followed by the assault they don't stand a chance in because Marines always come with frag grenades now.

A 5 man combat squad with a flamer can easily kill about 30 Guardsmen if you're playing smart. A combat squad is 90 points, 30 Guardsmen are 150 points in the new codex. Massed numbers do not = invincible army.


but my argument isnt that i want to walk down the map i just dont want to get bogged down in cover

Boo hoo? "Bogged down" is hardly accurate, you roll 2D6 and pick the highest, in all likley hood you'll lose 0-3 inches off your movement every turn, if that.

If you want to be able to not get "bogged down" in cover then shove them in a 35 point Rhino.

You say you don't want to walk down the middle of the board, yet you don't want to use cover. Either way you look at it advancing in the open towards the enemy is stupid unless you're in a tank.



how to kill marines 101 get them in a firefight with lots of cover and bring some artillery

As a Guard player I can gaurentee the Marines would win that one. Even assuming that the points values are equal the Marines will be getting a 4+ cover save against my Earthsaker rounds. That's if I even HIT you first.

Depending on what you're actually planning on doing next turn too you may just go to ground. If you have like 40 Guardsmen in front of you and you're contesting an objective they need you might as well GTG and take the 3+ cover against everything.


Tanks ?? Tanks?? my marines dont see tanks they see smoking wrecks

My Guard tanks laugh in the face of Marines, including Marine "tanks" (and I use the word loosely).

Seriously the only thing that worries my Leman Russes are meltaguns and grenades. If you've got close enough to use either I've done something wrong.


As we're perfectly used to not having anything except a cover save, and accept it's just part of the game that some things will punch through our armour, despite what the fluff says about it's wondrous protection.

Yup it's an advantage:

"No way, in the new Marine Codex they have S6 AP3 flamers on a Land Raider!"
"So against fellow marines thats auto hit, wounding on 2s, only invulnerables allowed?"
"Yeah!"
"Meh, normal flamers against my troops are auto hit, wounding on 3s, only invulnerables allowed"

Hellguns are currently S3 AP5, costing 10 points per model. In the next Guard codex they still pierce my armour but this time my opponent is paying 6 points each extra...

Not relying on armour is a bonus imo. Expescially since when you get to make saves it's funny to watch chainswords bounce off flak armour.


EDIT: Also Marines dont have a learning curve, I'm as good with Marines now as I was when I was 14. I run at the enemy, shoot them as I get close, beat them up when I am close. There's more details in the individual game based on opponent, scenery, deployment etc but that is the basis of any Marine tactic.

Bekenel
09-04-2009, 10:59
Oh, there is a learning curve for Marines. I saw a guy who had 40 Marines plus a Terminator Captain, and he got absolutely slaughtered because his army was literally jsut two lines, ignoring and all cover available. A pure Thousand Sons army just wiped him out because, even though he knew what he was fighting, he didn't do anything to counter the Sons. Two Rhinos worth of them took out the left flank and a single Daemon Prince took the right, with a seperate squad focusing on the home objective.

The TS player used his Rhinos as mobile cover, preventing the Marines from firing whenever he disembarked - and when he did, oddly enough squads died very quickly.

Again, this is from a 1k points view point, where you don't get many Marines and you have to fight cohesively. I usually only have a few vehicles and 36 Marines (including HQ squad), and you have to know when to pick a fight and when to fight back. Marines just happen to be more forgiving if you make a mistake.


The truth is that it has never been faster to cross a battle field than now.
What with running and vehicles being tougher and drop pods not to mention infiltrate/deepstrike.
Marines are the only ones to have all of these and in abundance too.
This means less time to shoot them as they come toward us. Correct?
This means we get less shots. Correct?
So GW gives us more guns that hurt you quicker. Correct?
Its not rocket science. Correct!!!

When your whole army can cross any board in two turns, its brown trousers time for us non CC killing machines. Give us a break we dont have the luxury of all your fancy toys.
Marines are one army I don't fear when I use my IG, because a) Battlecannon and b) they have few numbers, which works to my advantage. Sure, Drop-pods hurt and so do Rhino Rushes, but somethings you have to deal with as they come. I'm much more worried by multi-wound things like 'Nids, Daemon Princes, Obliterators, 'Nob Bikers and massive hordes like 'Nids, Orks..

Popsical
09-04-2009, 11:00
For newbies i always recommend using the 40k in 40 minutes unit selection rules it stops all the uber killy stuff wiping them out in turn 2.

Maybe others should try this too. It works in larger battles up to 1000 too so isnt that restricting in size for the inexperienced. :)

At the end of the day the marines are a surgical strike unit that strikes fast and up close. If you want to march or drive across the board then try another army. Thats what the fluff says they do and thats what GW are tailoring them to do.

The Iraqis never saw the SAS driving in column thru their front lines. Bad a$$ they are but they dont suit that battlefield role and nor should marines. Thats the province of the guard. :)

Popsical
09-04-2009, 11:10
The TS player used his Rhinos as mobile cover, preventing the Marines from firing whenever he disembarked - and when he did, oddly enough squads died very quickly

Hang on you said earlier that marines dont get cheap units to use as cover! Im sure they have rhinos too lol and are less expensive than demon princes and tsons per man!?!

Have you changed your tune?:D

If they can do it why cant marines?

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 11:21
If they can do it why cant marines?
You and I both know rhinos are only good as cover if the opponent is bad at taking out tanks. Of course if the rhino gets popped it just becomes cover by a different medium:D

Popsical
09-04-2009, 11:34
Exactly! More cover lol.
If marine players want avoid being shot by ap3 weapons then reduce the time under fire. You have lots more ways of crossing the board fast than any other codex and the same scenery as the guy your fighting. So use your shiny new toys and dont walk across ther battlefield in the open.

Does terrain have a contagious disease or what? If you think it does or there is not enough in your local area, then tailor your army to stop this being an issue.

Drop pod on the enemy, take a round of fire then assault. No one gets less than one turn of fire while crossing the board, often we get more.

Use your initiative or lose. Plan ahead or lose. These are the things that people like Alexander the great and Rommel did. Do you know better? :)

Bekenel
09-04-2009, 11:46
Hang on you said earlier that marines dont get cheap units to use as cover! Im sure they have rhinos too lol and are less expensive than demon princes and tsons per man!?!

Have you changed your tune?:D

If they can do it why cant marines?
Actually, I think you'll find that MetalGecko23 said that Marines don't have cheap units to use as cover, thank you very much. I will fully admit that Rhinos act as cheap cover (one of the reasons why I will never take a Marine army of any kind without Rhinos), however they generally block LoS completely ie no saves of any kind to take, since the opponent can't see you.

Another thing, you can say as much as you want about your own tactics, but a great tactician has to take into account what the opponent does. You don't know if they'll manage to pop all your Rhinos on the first turn, forcing you to in fact walk up the field - and if they've forced you into a table quarter with poor terrain (say, no LOS blocking stuff, and a few scatterings of razorwire and a forest), for example, then you might not have enough cover for all your units. No plan survives first contact with the enemy. I'm sure Rommel learnt that lesson very quickly :rolleyes:

Lord Solar Plexus
09-04-2009, 11:47
EDIT: Also Marines dont have a learning curve, I'm as good with Marines now as I was when I was 14. I run at the enemy, shoot them as I get close, beat them up when I am close. There's more details in the individual game based on opponent, scenery, deployment etc but that is the basis of any Marine tactic.

Are you sure you didn't confuse them with Orks? ;)


I'm sure Rommel learnt that lesson very quickly :rolleyes:

Yes, the first time he rolled table quarters!

Popsical
09-04-2009, 11:59
As i said earlier lol you cant please some people lol.
These issues are part of the game you adapt or die.
If you cant adapt then become a good loser or quit.
There are a good many power armoured players with out of date codexs and they have a hell of a worse time than smurf players adapting.
Come on play the game and enjoy your advantages you have loads!
Us 3rd ed codex players have no sympathy for you at all, and guard players have waited years to finally get some killy fun!
Quit bitching and play better! :evilgrin:

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 12:07
If you cant adapt then become a good loser or quit.

Quit bitching and play better!
This is entirly unneccessary my friend. You shouldnt punish new players or better yet decide that only one play type is viable so deal with it. I would like to see as many army interpretations as possible. Do I think the marine whirlwind is excessive..yes. Do I think that 5 str 7 ap 2 blasts is excessive...yes.
You cant auto counter every tactic use by your opponent unless he is dumb and even then rolling can kill you (of course thems the breaks and not the rules).
Personally I dont think every army should get ap 3 killy because marines are well played. I also dont like a gaming environment were if the marine player breaks cover the unit is dead. If every army is a mech army do think the game is more interesting or less?

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 12:09
Oh, there is a learning curve for Marines. I saw a guy who had 40 Marines plus a Terminator Captain, and he got absolutely slaughtered because his army was literally jsut two lines, ignoring and all cover available. A pure Thousand Sons army just wiped him out because, even though he knew what he was fighting, he didn't do anything to counter the Sons. Two Rhinos worth of them took out the left flank and a single Daemon Prince took the right, with a seperate squad focusing on the home objective.


That not a learning curve for Marines, thats a learning curve for idiots:

1) He didn't play to his army's advantages
2) He came across an opponent with an obvious advantage and didn't do anything to counter act it.

If he learned from his mistake then perhaps he's not that dumb.


For newbies i always recommend using the 40k in 40 minutes unit selection rules it stops all the uber killy stuff wiping them out in turn 2.



Ever heard of a baptism of fire?



At the end of the day the marines are a surgical strike unit that strikes fast and up close. If you want to march or drive across the board then try another army. Thats what the fluff says they do and thats what GW are tailoring them to do.

The Iraqis never saw the SAS driving in column thru their front lines. Bad a$$ they are but they dont suit that battlefield role and nor should marines. Thats the province of the guard. :)

Umm thats because the SAS and Marines have absolutley nothing in common. The SAS are covert special operations forces that rely on dsicretion, ruthlessness and infiltration.

Marines are shock troops, being shot out of a Space Ship, laning in front of their opponent's in highly colourful armour, shooting very loud guns that fire exploding bullets and shout a lot at their enemies...



Are you sure you didn't confuse them with Orks? ;)


They were 3rd edition Blood Angels back in third edition 40K. They might as well have been :p

Also I take offence to the suggestion Orks shoot things as they run forward. They shoot AT things, they don't actually hit though :p



Yes, the first time he rolled table quarters!

I just had a flashforward to people explaining the Nazi defeat in Russia as "Stalin rolled pitched battle and got the first turn and it went downhill from there..."

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 12:16
That not a learning curve for Marines, thats a learning curve for idiots:

1) He didn't play to his army's advantages
2) He came across an opponent with an obvious advantage and didn't do anything to counter act it.

If he learned from his mistake then perhaps he's not that dumb.

hahaha....you clearly describe a learning curve in action but fail to see it. :evilgrin:

Ever heard of a baptism of fire?
Hahaha....another example of a learning curve.

Oh! RichBlake you are very good with irony.

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 12:17
Umm thats because the SAS and Marines have absolutley nothing in common. The SAS are covert special operations forces that rely on dsicretion, ruthlessness and infiltration.

Marines are shock troops, being shot out of a Space Ship, laning in front of their opponent's in highly colourful armour, shooting very loud guns that fire exploding bullets and shout a lot at their enemies...

If you want British Forces / Imperial Forces comparison I'd say Space Marines could be compared to Royal Marines and/or Paras (in their airborne role, not that they have done that for 60 years), whereas SAS would be more like Storm Troopers (not Grenadiers, but real Storm Troopers).

Bekenel
09-04-2009, 12:21
Oh, that guy is definitely an idiot :p But my point remains, it's not just a case of point and win (or point and lose) with Marines, you do actually have to remember the armies advantages and disadvantages. I also think that with the massive amount of units you can take, you have to learn which units are great (eg Tactical Squads) which are good (Sternguard) and which are just plain bad (eg Servitors).

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 12:37
hahaha....you clearly describe a learning curve in action but fail to see it. :evilgrin:


Ummm no, you are actually suffering from what I call "internet syndrom".

Symptoms include replying to posts you haven't read and mocking other users for "not understanding" something because you've failed to understand their point.

My point WAS that the example given had absolutley nothing to do with what army the player was using, and everything to do with the fact the guy has no idea how to play the game or even basic understanding of how games like this work.


Hahaha....another example of a learning curve.

Yes it is, a learning curve of, read carefully, Warhammer 40,000 not Space Marines.

Once you understand the basics of Warhammer 40,000 Marines need no further tactical development (though you can do it if you want to). Once you learn the "good" army builds and a couple of tricks you can plough into your enemies safe in the knowledge that due to your good stats and equipment the dice rolls are always on your side.

I never said it was impossible to lose with Marines. I never said that Warhammer 40,000 doesn't have a learning curve. I said Space Marines specifically don't have a learning curve.

To emphasise the point: With Guard you start as a bad-OK player depending on your level of comptency in 40K and applying those game mechanics to writing your list and using the army, but after that you get better game by game progressivley.

With Marines after you mast the basics tricks and builds (which can be done from reading a forum...cough) there isn't much that will take you beyond that level.

I've played both Marines and Guard, I actually have experience with both so I know what I'm on about.



Oh! RichBlake you are very good with irony.

Not as good as you it would appear. You mock me for failing to understand what a "learning curve" is because you did not simply not get or read my point you sailed right on past it and didn't look back.


Marshal: That's closer to the mark.

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 12:47
Once you learn the "good" army builds and a couple of tricks you can plough into your enemies safe in the knowledge that due to your good stats and equipment the dice rolls are always on your side.

dude this is another example of a learning curve.


I never said that Warhammer 40,000 doesn't have a learning curve. I said Space Marines specifically don't have a learning curve.

this statement is a contradiction. space marines are part of warhammer 40k and learning how to use them in the game is part of the marine learning curve. if you think marines are so good that there is nothing to learn and any applicaltion of thought allows you to win then i must say who you play is suspect. i have been playing marines for a long time and each edition makes you change tactics. i have never play marines were winning is as simple as you describe it and i think everybody would agree with me.


I've played both Marines and Guard, I actually have experience with both so I know what I'm on about.

what is it that you know because i dont think you know as much as you think. i have played every army atleast a couple of times and played against them more and i can say that no army is any harder to understand. they are all equally difficult.


With Marines after you mast the basics tricks and builds (which can be done from reading a forum...cough) there isn't much that will take you beyond that level.

well see you are forgetting that being good at 40k (if the is a such thing) goes beyond army builds. but maybe you havent learned that yet.

Awilla the Hun
09-04-2009, 12:50
"To emphasise the point: With Guard you start as a bad-OK player depending on your level of comptency in 40K and applying those game mechanics to writing your list and using the army, but after that you get better game by game progressivley." (RichBlake, last post he did.)

Speaking as a player of the Imperial Guard who thinks very highly of himself when it comes to chosing to play that army, I have to say that your statement sounds more than a little conceited. His Majesty's Imperial Guards are a great army, but so are His Majesty's Space Marines, or the Eldar, or any other sort of army, and all (as I see it) require the same skill to do excellently with-a veteran player with any of those armies can fight hard against a veteran player with any other. But I am no expert.

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 12:55
dude this is another example of a learning curve.


No. It isn't.

A curve implies steady growth in ability, starting at a point 0, increasing fast then slowly petering out towards the end so it is almost (but not quite) level.

Space Marines start off at nothing. Go up in a straight line to a level (lets call it X) then peter out into basically a straight line.

There is no "curve" about it. I can't believe I just had to explain that.




this statement is a contradiction. space marines are part of warhammer 40k and learning how to use them in the game is part of the marine learning curve. if you think marines are so good that there is nothing to learn and any applicaltion of thought allows you to win then i must say who you play is suspect. i have been playing marines for a long time and each edition makes you change tactics. i have never play marines were winning is as simple as you describe it and i think everybody would agree with me.

You've played Marines a long time? I would have never have guess :rolleyes:

It's not a contradiction at all, there are several themes that run through 40K that are not individual to any army, or even limited to a handful of armies. For example the use of cover is now a tactic that pretty much applies to every army. The proper outfitting and deployment of Terminators is not.

If you've never played as Marines and found you were simply trouncing non-marine players fairly frequently then no offence but either your opponents are brilliant players or you are rubbish.



what is it that you know because i dont think you know as much as you think. i have played every army atleast a couple of times and played against them more and i can say that no army is any harder to understand. they are all equally difficult.

No offence but if you think all the armies are as easy to use as each other then you are either lying or you are a bit simple. "Playing" with an army once or twice doesn't count. You need to have collected that army and played qith it constantly over a long period of time. If you have done this and you honestly believe for one second that Marines or Orks are just as easy to get right as say Daemonhunters then I'm quite astonished.

EDIT:



Speaking as a player of the Imperial Guard who thinks very highly of himself when it comes to chosing to play that army, I have to say that your statement sounds more than a little conceited. His Majesty's Imperial Guards are a great army, but so are His Majesty's Space Marines, or the Eldar, or any other sort of army, and all (as I see it) require the same skill to do excellently with-a veteran player with any of those armies can fight hard against a veteran player with any other. But I am no expert.

Outside of tournaments (because face it with certain army builds you don't need to be particulary good to score high) you will notice that very few Veteran players actually play Vanilla Marines. This is largley because there is far less of a challenge in playing an army where everyone is tough, strong and can do everything. Eldar and Orks (though Orks to a less extent) consist of armies with specific units for specific roles and synergy is important. Guard and Tau as shooting armies have always been tricky to play because of their weaknesses in close combat lacking any sort of fix from a unit in their own army, Guard moreso though because you can't rely on 10 Guardsmen to do squat. Dark Eldar are an army almost impossible to play well if you're starting off and the same goes for Daemonhunters.

The only army I can think of that doesn't really have a learning curve (i.e it goes from nothing, in a straight line up to "good" then peters out) is Sisters of Battle since you just do "10 Sisters, Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Rhino, Smoke Launchers, Extra Armour: Repeat".

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 13:04
If you have done this and you honestly believe for one second that Marines or Orks are just as easy to get right as say Daemonhunters then I'm quite astonished.
They are.


If you've never played as Marines and found you were simply trouncing non-marine players fairly frequently then no offence but either your opponents are brilliant players or you are rubbish.

I've floored 1500pts of marines with 500pts of Tau. So I guess I might be god by your reasoning.
Now I'm a damn good marine player and rarely lose but thats not the marine list. I dont play beardy lists. I play fluffy marines and win, that takes a while to learn how to do. I can take tactics learned as a marine player and win with a non marine army. You dont win because your codex is good you win because you are good. You seem to think marines start at some pedastal above everyone else.

RichBlake
09-04-2009, 13:11
They are.


You're wrong. I'm bored of justifying what I'm saying now because frankly anyone who believes that Marines and Orks are just as easy to win with as Dark Eldar and Daemonhunters is just plain wrong. It's like saying that the sky is pink and it rains gold nuggets.



I've floored 1500pts of marines with 500pts of Tau. So I guess I might be god by your reasoning.

Yeah, that sentances proves one of the following is true:

1) You're making stuff up
2) All your opponents in your area are rubbish
3) You're the messiah

Personally I heavily doubt it's 3.

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 13:19
3) You're the messiah

Personally I heavily doubt it's 3.
Maybe it is. Though I'm not lying as I don't see the point in lying about a game on a forum about the game.

Let me guess you play both DE and DH and so have an inflated sense of there difficulty. Also there codex are horribly out dated. In 3rd there was no real problem with either codex, so it not the army that is hard to learn it the fact that they were created for a different game. Frankly I think Tau rank a the bottom tier of the armies but you don't see me saying I am super amazing for wining with them.

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 13:20
Tau are definitely middle of the road, along with everybody except Marines, Chaos Marines, Orks, Daemon Hunters and Dark Eldar.

Montserrat
09-04-2009, 13:39
get in cover

Popsical
09-04-2009, 13:59
Look whos started name calling lmao.
To re-cap:

Marines shouldnt have to use cover.
Rhinos are not a solution coz they always get blown up.
Drop pods are not the solution coz they just arent.
Running is too slow.
Power armour is not tough enough.
Toughness 4 is far too puny.
The new codex made marines cheaper so more is worse.
Land raiders have larger transport capacity but inherantly suck.
Deep striking is less risky so cant be trusted.
If any of the above is wrong then its not enough to make newbies win and is therefore a moot point.

And by the way the worlds special forces have more than one remit. just lately the counter terror role is the only neccessary one. :D

MetalGecko23
09-04-2009, 14:14
Marines shouldnt have to use cover.

No they should use it, just not to the point where its game over if they don't spend the game in it.

Rhinos are not a solution coz they always get blown up.

Yes they are I hope my opponent spends the time to shoot them.

Drop pods are not the solution coz they just arent.

Yah know I have never actually used them but I bet they help a lot.

Running is too slow.

It is slow. Thats why you don't footslog across the board. Its also unreliable.

Power armour is not tough enough.

Its great unless your up against ap3 spam and then your just paying extra for it and no using it.

Toughness 4 is far too puny.

Again ap3 spam generally removes its usefulness.

The new codex made marines cheaper so more is worse.
Technically the marine is more expensive but the options are cheaper. So no its definantly not worse.

If any of the above is wrong then its not enough to make newbies win and is therefore a moot point.

Hmmm...I am not sure. I just think noobs need some leeway. Of course throwning newbees a bone generally translates into veteran abuse. Which I think is a beater complaint.

I think I am getting unneccesary, "Mehrenz is too good" anger directed my way. When all I am saying is most of the armies are fine against marines and that marines shouldn't be punished because people don't like them or think there too powerful. Through the excesive ap3 starting to appear, though granted most of the excessive ap3 is in the marines own codex and the soon to be guard codex.

Popsical
09-04-2009, 14:31
The marines arent the best but they are close. The fifth ed codexs are better than the 3rd this is true as the points for everything are cheaper now (marines pay one point more for frag, crack and a pistol). Deny this and you are a ***** who cant count lol.
We had the same prob when rending was god as with ap3.
How can people who use a codex that consistantly finishes with more top ten results than any other complain?

Captain Micha
09-04-2009, 14:37
The only thing guard are gaining that's Ap3 are Stormtroopers who are infact over costed for what they do. Just like everyone else's non Codex Space Marine, Ap3 units. (TS to name one example. Tau Rail Rifles for another)

Infact STs seem more Anti Xeno than marine due to the fact it's a str 3 gun.

Frontier
09-04-2009, 14:39
Seriously? I am about to start a thread simply titled:"Space Marines" and watch the bitch fest ensue because the thread name is "Space Marines"

At some point there has to be a "get over it" phase, right? Right? I'm a Marine player. I get outplayed all the time by better opponents. I've learned these lessons the hard way, and it has made me a better player. I simply cannot stand this notion that the Marines are supposed to be the end all be all. It just isn't the case in my experience.

Popsical
09-04-2009, 14:45
Oh apparently they are coz more people shout louder if their shiny armour takes a dent LMAO.
Its a known fact that people bitch more when they really have nothing to complain about at all LOL.
We all pay for our save throws and seldom get them so who cares?
Bearing in mind everything is cheaper for marines anyway why should we care?

Lord Damocles
09-04-2009, 14:47
At some point there has to be a "get over it" phase, right? Right?
Wrong.

Ref: Second Edition :p

Chairman_woo
09-04-2009, 16:57
My 2p.....

Thousand sons are blooy stupid for 25pts! ap3 and a 4+ invun!!!! Makes my poor termies feel a bit inadequate and depressed.

everything else with ap3 or better I can think of is specialized or rare enough to be ok, its just those dammed children of magnus!!! They seem to screw eveything but genestealers in my nid army too, my poor fexes and tyrants dont last long against 10+ ap3 shots.
They shouldent be allowed rhinos imho, the negative effects of slow and purposefull are the only thing that seems to ballance the sod-pots out.

So in summary the prevalance of ap3 weapons dosent feel unballanced to me, thousand sons however massiveley do.

Ianos
09-04-2009, 17:14
They seem to screw eveything but genestealers in my nid army too, my poor fexes and tyrants dont last long against 10+ ap3 shots.
.

It takes 10 shots to remove one wound from a TMC without cover or biomorphs. So to kill a bare TMC you need 20 1ksons in rapid fire range with no cover:eyebrows:

General Squeek Squeek
09-04-2009, 17:14
My 2p.....

Thousand sons are blooy stupid for 25pts! ap3 and a 4+ invun!!!! Makes my poor termies feel a bit inadequate and depressed.

everything else with ap3 or better I can think of is specialized or rare enough to be ok, its just those dammed children of magnus!!! They seem to screw eveything but genestealers in my nid army too, my poor fexes and tyrants dont last long against 10+ ap3 shots.
They shouldent be allowed rhinos imho, the negative effects of slow and purposefull are the only thing that seems to ballance the sod-pots out.

So in summary the prevalance of ap3 weapons dosent feel unballanced to me, thousand sons however massiveley do.

:wtf: shouldn't your termies be even happier since your basically killing tac marines that are WAY more expensive? I know when I've played them they've always felt like more of a point sink then anything for my opponent.

The armor save system right now works fine. No its not perfect, but what in life is. If you want true balance go play chess.

The only thing I can gather from the OP here is that either
1. your opponents are probably gearing their list against you (b/c a ton of ap3 weaponary will hurt them alot against horde armies)
2. You have no idea how to play your list
3. You actually do want an auto-win button.

I suspect it's 1. if your sincere, and all your opponents bring massive amounts of ap3 weapons. If you were new or have read to many BL novels its probably 2. or 3. Oh and I'm no marine hater. Going on 5 years in the game, and marines are the only army I collect. I've played the others, but I just like the fluff and feel of my marines.

maelstrom66669
09-04-2009, 17:16
Marines are weak in close combat? Str 4 T4 3+ Sv makes them good in combat.

Sorry I play chaos, their pitiful amount of attacks makes them weak to me, but then im used to rolling 50+ attacks on the charge,,,

Marshal Sinclair
09-04-2009, 17:47
Sorry I play chaos, their pitiful amount of attacks makes them weak to me, but then im used to rolling 50+ attacks on the charge,,,

To every other army in the game Marines are good in combat. Even Orks and Nids.

Frontier
09-04-2009, 21:35
Wrong.

Ref: Second Edition :p


Damn and blast!

Awilla the Hun
09-04-2009, 21:48
I must ask if Guilliman's Knight knew what he was going to unleash when he first typed anything saying that marines were underpowered. The combined anger of several hundred wargamers is a force of nature as powerful as any.

guillimansknight
10-04-2009, 00:03
AHH my little social experiment has evolved ...............into war!!

i love that certain things just get completely ignored


OK a few clear ups

1 my main army is NOT SM

2 I wanted the AP 3 for the guard so HA

3




hellguns in 4th ed should be str 3 ap 3 its hard to wound MEQ's but will puch through their amour
ouch that'd hurt

Uhuh. Except your standard boltgun is just a effective at killing the guard with plasma gun (and his useless buddy meatshields) as the plasma is at killing you. Imagine facing an army armed entirely with weapons that hit on 3+ kill on 3+ no armour save. In CC its the same except you strike first and we get a 5+ save at the end.
Now realise thats what it's like playing agaisnt marines before you complain 1 gun in 10 in my squads ignore your armour.

meh its annoying real annoying

guard are weight in numbers somehow a plasma gun dosent suit them

and i hate the fact guard might as well not buy that 5+ save MORE than i hate plasma-maniac armies

also dont start saying im a dum MEQ player I just suggeted AP 3 hellguns

didn't he just actually suppose ap3? ap3??? marinekiller??
btw. marines with bolters are MORE effective against guardsmen than guardsmen with plasguns are against marines.

4 most of you have shown normal behavior which is to ignore everything but one and use an argument that is very typical and predictable.

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 00:27
4 most of you have shown normal behavior which is to ignore everything but one and use an argument that is very typical and predictable.

I think you fail to understand quite what is going on here.

guillimansknight
10-04-2009, 00:29
I think you fail to understand quite what is going on here.

no i do and i find it funny

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 00:31
no i do and i find it funny

Like a road some things go both ways.

techman
10-04-2009, 00:38
I really have the answer to it all (its actually something I saw while first reading the rulebook) let ALL PLAYERS USE ALL SAVES!!!! you roll for your armor save, then cover, then invo if u have it. I really think it would help the game out, I havent tried it yet but would like to. that way a grot with tweezers can't kill a SM or DE or IG.

P.S. Has anyone tried this? I would really like ot know how it turned out

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 00:41
P.S. Has anyone tried this? I would really like ot know how it turned out

It doesn't unless you have armour modifiers, but that is a whole different kettle of fish.

For reference, play cities of death with necrons, in a medicae facility, with a monolith nearby. For 1 unit a turn you are looking at a potential 4 saves per wound.

maelstrom66669
10-04-2009, 03:34
I think he might be trying to cause arguements a bit, I dont know how to post from another thread, but in the rules forum he started a thread saying certain rules he thought were stupid but he also said he hadnt even read the 5th edition rules....

kultz
10-04-2009, 04:39
*Sigh*.

Isolated examples, anecdotal evidence...

Sure, marines can do everything, sure, we have cool toys.
Does any marine play ever say "I will now move out of my land raider, shoot with my bs4 bolters, charge with ws4 t4 marines that are almost fearless, and I CAN AFFORD SOO MANY OF THESE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE TO BUY FRAG GRENADES."?

No. Perhaps the first part of the sentence happens, but not the last part.
Casualties hurt. Hurt alot.


Long rant short, if you think marines are so 'solid, almost overpowered, and definitely needs less than what they get'. Then I humbly request you to play marines.

No, please, pay for expensive troops as the core, try to perform all that points' worth of abilities in a single game. Be my guest, do field those fancy 'undercosted toys'.
If you can go to, say, a tournament, and 'win without seriously trying'. Then, well, you can **** on my firstborn.

maelstrom66669
10-04-2009, 05:48
I dont think marines are overpowered, but I'd say their a long way from underpowered as well. Complaining that other armies have AP3 weapons is just silly.

Warforger
10-04-2009, 05:57
To every other army in the game Marines are good in combat. Even Orks and Nids.

:eyebrows: Have you ever played a game of 40k? Even if the Orks don't charge a squad of assault marines attacking a mob of Orks will die in close combat. It was 10 men Vs 20 orks, they didn't kill that many. It took another 10 man assault squad to finish off that one mob, only for both to be assaulted again by more mobs and annihilated.

I would love to see a 10 man tactical squad charge 40 Gaunts and win the combat, I really do.

kultz
10-04-2009, 06:04
Ah, yes, before someone's delicate arteries get busted, complaining that ap3 weaponry exists, is silly.

Though, the extensive availability of such weapons are slowing driving marines to, well, impracticality.

Warforger
10-04-2009, 06:28
The top two marine slaughterer's belong to Guard, so Guard don't really have anything to complain about in this thread.

Hellguns being AP3 won't make them the "Almighty marine slaughterer's" There still S3, which on a BS3 model is just as reliable as a S3 Power Weapon. 10k sons sound like there really anti-marine, which they are, however against all other opponents they'll get crushed. Sternguard have overheat and the round really isn't worth it (its going to overheat on a squad that costs 30 points a model...) stick to your plasma cannons.

If you fear Ap3 so much, be a better tactician.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-04-2009, 07:11
That not a learning curve for Marines, thats a learning curve for idiots:


There's still a learning curve for every army. Some are steeper, some more shallow, and some are a steady progress but they exist. The most basic approach of heedlessly charging forward will only go so far, and I'm pretty sure can be refined a lot.



There still S3, which on a BS3 model is just as reliable as a S3 Power Weapon.

They're on BS 4 models.

Admiral Samuel Eden
10-04-2009, 07:21
Actually, your wrong StormWulfen. I have faced a whole army of these guys several times with my marines and beating them is actually pretty straight forward. You simply get into some decent cover and have a shooting match with them. Their AP 3 doesn't count for anything because of your 4+ cover save or even better and you have a lot more guys. If they charge you its still equal, they just have less guys again and strike last and aren't using their AP 3 weapons so its all good. Really, they aren't that special and are much better when used in conjunction with other units anyway instead of as a whole army.
As to the 'too many AP 3 weapons' whining, just learn to deal with it. There aren't many anyway and those that are there are generally simply bringing balance and something interesting to the battle.

Remoah
10-04-2009, 07:34
I'm a guard player, now look at my situation.

My troops require cover to even think about surviving a round of bolter fire. Low LD, and weak troops mean that even a 5 man combat squad with only bolters will easily demolish my guard under 12". Leadership check is inevitable here, meaning i either need to spend 10pt on a vox, or keep them within my officer's ld bubble.

Now, to counter this, what to i have? Tanks are good but expensive as anything, the battle-cannon scatters like crazy. That's Ap3 for ya, if i'm lucky 1-2 marines will cop it. thats if my tanks haven't been taken out by nasty DS Termies or Lascannon fire yet.

That leaves me with another option Lascannons.
Which is 1 shot, at BS3, for 25 points.
Sure, if it hits, a marine will guaranteed die.
But i'd rather shoot at your rhions/landies thank you good sir.

What, then, is the most obvious choice?

The Plasma Gun.
2 shots, Very decent chance that i'll knock off one marine with that bad boy. At 10pt it's not cheap for guard, who likely die, or miss, or retreat because lasgunner's 1,3,4,5, and 7 now have gaping chest wounds to remind them of their service to a real army.
Even so, if i field 9 squads, thats 18 shots per turn that have any real chance of taking out marines...

I have no chance against bolters, you bring 40 marines into combat and that's 40 shots at least, that will more than likely demolish my guard. I can only counter that one way, so excuse me if i'm going to take my fairly obvious, marine stomping choice as much as i can...

And BTW, my current army consists of:
3x 5 squad guard platoons, w/ flamer, vox and HB
Platoon CMD have 2x flamers
2x Roughriders with Meltas
Stormtroopers with Meltas
NO TANKS.

kultz
10-04-2009, 07:47
I'm a guard player, now look at my situation.(SNIP...)

I can agree with you in that the Guard has no viable alternatives.

But, again, I will bring up the analogy:

Say you have a boxing match.

Say you have a regular boxer, and a boxer with no legs and one arm.

We can all agree the crippled boxer is at a disadvantage.

Except the cripple has a gun.

Now, the able-bodied boxer will complain about getting shot.

Some folk will state that "your opponent is crippled, stop complaining."

Some other will agrue that "it's still a gun to a boxing match".

Now, we cannot simply solve the problem by taking away the gun, yet we cannot leave the situation as is.

The only solution is to somehow make the cripple, well, less crippled.

Catch my drift?

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
10-04-2009, 07:51
OP... Go play Orks, where you will never get a save unless facing Lasguns or in CC... THEN complain to me about your 3+ save. Spoiled brat! You do not know the joy of taking saves, unless you are so frequently denied as I am... Have you ever used 'Ard Boyz? Have you?! When I use them... The immense pleasure of TAKING SAVES, and then MAKING HALF... Go, have your marines, with 3+ all around... I need not such extravagance. I shall labor away, with no save if I must! For I need none! I am an ORK! Waaagh!

AngryAngel
10-04-2009, 08:35
Anyone else think this is all pointless ? Perhaps the op is merely posing this to stir up the hornets nest ? Crazy I know, why don't we let it drop, no need to feed into it. Unless you just really want to attack each other.

GeneralDisaster
10-04-2009, 08:43
Anyone else think this is all pointless ? Perhaps the op is merely posing this to stir up the hornets nest ? Crazy I know, why don't we let it drop, no need to feed into it. Unless you just really want to attack each other.

He speaketh the truth. With a hint of niaevete, but still the truth. The fact of the matter is that 70 % of Warseer users are, althugh they won't admit it, arrogant. Look back through the pages, and you will realise that nobody wants to admit it. Feeding into arguments and attacking each other is what keeps them going.

Brendi
10-04-2009, 10:47
:eyebrows: Have you ever played a game of 40k? Even if the Orks don't charge a squad of assault marines attacking a mob of Orks will die in close combat. It was 10 men Vs 20 orks, they didn't kill that many. It took another 10 man assault squad to finish off that one mob, only for both to be assaulted again by more mobs and annihilated.

I would love to see a 10 man tactical squad charge 40 Gaunts and win the combat, I really do.

Not to be snide, but max gaunt size is 32 :p
Also, that fight favours the space marines. On the assault you will kill about 7.5 gaunts and assuming all the gaunts will be able to fight then you will lose 2.3 marines.
Then the gaunts will suffer from being fearless, since they got a sucky save they will lose 4-5 more gaunts to No Retreat.

Then if you factor in a flamer, which isnīt unreasonable, you should be able to kill 8-10+ gaunts before you assault.

Also the gaunts are at least 200pts, more likely 240 points.

If the gaunts were to do the assaulting they would do a little better, but the marines would still win combat. Not assuming all 40 gaunts will be able to fight of course.
Even with 80 attacks the first round of combat will still average a tie.

Orks are a different matter with their massive amounts of attacks and T4.

Tactical squads are above average in CC, but not by that much. Just keep in mind that they will still get annihilated by a lot of units (Genestealers, Berzerkers, Nobz)

Marshal Sinclair
10-04-2009, 11:13
:eyebrows: Have you ever played a game of 40k? Even if the Orks don't charge a squad of assault marines attacking a mob of Orks will die in close combat. It was 10 men Vs 20 orks, they didn't kill that many. It took another 10 man assault squad to finish off that one mob, only for both to be assaulted again by more mobs and annihilated.

I would love to see a 10 man tactical squad charge 40 Gaunts and win the combat, I really do.

So your two flamers and 8 Bolt Pistols will kill (being conservative) 16 Orks, then your attacks on the charge (30) will kill another 10. 6 Boys can wipe out 10 Assault Marines? Sure they can, but they are not likely to.

Tyron
10-04-2009, 11:30
I can agree with you in that the Guard has no viable alternatives.

But, again, I will bring up the analogy:

Say you have a boxing match.

Say you have a regular boxer, and a boxer with no legs and one arm.

We can all agree the crippled boxer is at a disadvantage.

Except the cripple has a gun.

Now, the able-bodied boxer will complain about getting shot.

Some folk will state that "your opponent is crippled, stop complaining."

Some other will agrue that "it's still a gun to a boxing match".

Now, we cannot simply solve the problem by taking away the gun, yet we cannot leave the situation as is.

The only solution is to somehow make the cripple, well, less crippled.

Catch my drift?

I would love to sig this if there wasn't any restrictions lol

Awilla the Hun
10-04-2009, 12:49
My other piece of advice to Guilliman's Knight: if you can't beat us, join us! Get a Whirlwind, or maybe a few Thunderfires or Devestators, and unleash your own massed armour ignoring blast templates from platfors that often have better accuracy than their opposite numbers. If you meet, say an IG player stupid enough to form his men into close order and advance through the open ((like I did once)), let him have it! If he puts his men in cover, just keep firing! Watch his face crumple in misery when the Redeemer gets close and unloads two templates of pain on his lines. If those Fire Dragons are coming for you, get those heavy bolters working! And so on.

No one wins a battle by complaining about a lack of balance. Make the enemy whinge, whilst you hurl his troops into the abyss that spawned them with frag missile, Whirlwind battery, and the cleansing fire of your flamethrowers. If they choose to come in power armour, learn from your enemies and finish painting all those plasma cannon toting Devestators you had planned! If they have invulnerable saves, give a quiet word to the Inquisition and get his Psycannon going! Make sure that your opponent's world is one of pain and misery, and that his models know their fate even more than he does. Grip his weakness by the throat and drag him screaming into hell! Make sure that, no matter how quickly (ahem) his men shoot your power armour, or how many chainswords glance off them, that you are doing even more damage in return! Pack more plasma guns, or flamers, or whatever is required than he does. Then go on the "IG/Eldar/Ork/Chaos Whinge Thread" he has, and laugh at him. Long and loudly.

Somerandomidiot
10-04-2009, 15:34
AHH my little social experiment has evolved ...............into war!!


He's admitted he was trolling, why are we still arguing? There's nothing wrong with marines, in fact, I've found them to be an incredibly balanced army in 5th edition (and I play Daemonhunters/IG).

My one aside: why didn't GW give tactical marines a ccw? Perhaps it was too powerful letting them have an extra attack in close combat, but I find it incredibly hard to believe marines don't carry a blade on them.

Forlorn
10-04-2009, 15:45
ok this is not a typical marine whinge thread

:wtf: is a whinge?

Grand Master Raziel
10-04-2009, 16:01
Hellguns being AP3 won't make them the "Almighty marine slaughterer's" There still S3, which on a BS3 model is just as reliable as a S3 Power Weapon.

Is there some major change coming down the pike? Aren't Stormtroopers BS4?

Anyhow, I agree with the notion that a S3 AP3 weapon isn't that scary. In fact, none of the units with stock AP3 guns have frighteningly high strength, the strongest being Vespids with (IIRC) S5 guns. That being the case, there's a very simple counter to them: Rhinos. Vespids can only get glancing hits against their front and side armor, Sternies and TSes can only score glances against the back armor, and Stormies can't even effect the back armor. That means you can roll up on them with virtual impunity, and on subsequent turns hop out and get stuck in, where they can't use their guns at all.

Warforger
10-04-2009, 16:38
Not to be snide, but max gaunt size is 32 :p
Also, that fight favours the space marines. On the assault you will kill about 7.5 gaunts and assuming all the gaunts will be able to fight then you will lose 2.3 marines.
Then the gaunts will suffer from being fearless, since they got a sucky save they will lose 4-5 more gaunts to No Retreat.

Then if you factor in a flamer, which isnīt unreasonable, you should be able to kill 8-10+ gaunts before you assault.

Also the gaunts are at least 200pts, more likely 240 points.

If the gaunts were to do the assaulting they would do a little better, but the marines would still win combat. Not assuming all 40 gaunts will be able to fight of course.
Even with 80 attacks the first round of combat will still average a tie.

Orks are a different matter with their massive amounts of attacks and T4.

Tactical squads are above average in CC, but not by that much. Just keep in mind that they will still get annihilated by a lot of units (Genestealers, Berzerkers, Nobz)

Ok did I mention the assault squads which can't wipe out ork mobs? I made a bad example, Gaunts are meatshields, however Orks would have just raeped the marines, Marines aren't the "SUPER DUPER" in combat at all, Tacticals just suck, they really do, Assaults even, they get killed in cc by other cc specialists. If it took 20 assault marines to take down 30 Orks then guess how many orks are leftover? I mean the orks T4 and WS4 really screws around with the tactical marines, then you realize the attacks back....... really nasty.

In all my years of playing marines I have never seen a tactical squad excel in combat. In fact, if its any contrary to your opinions, our 3+ saves aren't even that good, oh if you could be us and deal with low numbers, there is a reason you have the 6+ save, stop complaining. It isn't as though the 3+ means "YOU PASS EVERY SAVE YOU'll EVER TAKE CHEEZERZ"

The only problem is that the person I was quoting was saying that marines where better in cc then Orks and Nids, I'd love to see the overpowered tactical marines take down the under powered genestealers in cc, oh and how about we throw in some Orks too. Oh hey, Guard get flamers too, so I must assume thats OP'd too right? (oh and you can't take two flamers in a tactical squad.....)

10 Tactical Marines 170
38 Orks (with sluggas and choppas) 168

Tacticals attack, 5.5 hits, 2.75 wounds, o.4125 saved, so about 3 Orks die?
Orks, 114 attacks, 57 hit, 28.5 wound, 10 dead marines.

Congrats, the marines really are better then Orks in CC :angel:

tuebor
10-04-2009, 17:00
In all my years of playing marines I have never seen a tactical squad excel in combat.

Of course not, that's not their job. Tactical squads aren't meant to take on enemy assault units at full strength and win.

The great thing about tactical squads is that they may not be spectacular at any one thing but there's nothing they're absolutely horrible at either. The old mantra of "shoot the choppy bits, chop the shooty bits" applies more to tactical squads than anything. Guardsmen can't out-chop things that outshoot them and Genestealers can't outshoot things that out-chop them. Tactical Marines, on the other hand generally are better at assaulting than enemy shooty units or better at shooting than enemy assault units.

Your Assault Marines aren't even meant to take on enemy specialist assault squads. That's what your Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators are for. Assault Marines are meant for tying up or neutralizing enemy fire support units, things like Lootaz, Guard Heavy Weapons Squads, Devastators, etc.

The current Marine dex really requires you to use your units to support each other. Ork Green Tide lists may be able to get away with just barging up the middle and winning through sheer numbers but Marines don't have that luxury. You are correct in that Marines don't have a unit you can just throw into CC with a full Ork mob and win, but 40k isn't paper rock scissors.


:wtf: is a whinge?

As I said earlier in the thread, it's a British word for whining.

Forlorn
10-04-2009, 18:40
Oh. There are too many words in this thread. I didn't see it. Chin Chin.

Tyron
10-04-2009, 18:57
You are correct in that Marines don't have a unit you can just throw into CC with a full Ork mob and win

Exactly, we are limited to what we can use, we have about 40-50 guys max and with the current armies we are out numbered and out gunned. Each casualty we suffer means a lot and weakens the army far greater than others.

The main problem with our codex is that it's very balanced more so than all the codices, and due to this we have no OP units like the rest, we don't really have any OP builds either which hamstrings us in tournaments.

jsullivanlaw
10-04-2009, 19:03
Marines get the whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, and sternguards, all can ignore COVER saves. These weapons can totally screw over certain non MEQ armies. Space Marines don't get to whine.

Hell's Angel
10-04-2009, 19:16
LOL, The harsh irony is against most marines, I do walk down the centre of the board using my TS's as advancing cover screens and lash out and kill anything foolish enough to be close and in cover... The problem is that if the OP wants a slogging army, he is playing the wrong list.`Huzzah Marines,' err the bad ones that is.

Durath
10-04-2009, 19:16
"AP3 or better weapons are still pretty rare, and also tend to be rather expensive in points."

Well there is no Troops Selection unit that packs AP3 weapons. Thay are limited to squads. And currently there are 2 squads in the game that have them.

One - Sternguard ( quite nice AP weapn because of 4S ) and Storm Troopers ( but I can assure you that you wont see many of those in tournaments ;) )

I wouldnt say that there is any incerease in the number of AP3 weapons that I would call significant. 2 units just doesnt cut it. At least IMHO

Noise Marines with a Doom Siren on the Champ are AP3 troops also.

Tyron
10-04-2009, 19:23
Marines get the whirlwind
thunderfire cannon
and sternguards
all can ignore COVER saves. These weapons can totally screw over certain non MEQ armies. Space Marines don't get to whine.

WW = Suffer a lot from not using their BS when rolling for distance when scattering as most players hide their WW.

TC = Can be one shoted very easily waisting 100 points.

SG = Only 24 inch range for that ammo which means they will be close enough for everyone else to shoot them dead.

tuebor
10-04-2009, 19:46
Exactly, we are limited to what we can use, we have about 40-50 guys max and with the current armies we are out numbered and out gunned. Each casualty we suffer means a lot and weakens the army far greater than others.

There are armies that will generally have less numbers than Marines. Aspect heavy Eldar and Grey Knights come to mind.


The main problem with our codex is that it's very balanced more so than all the codices, and due to this we have no OP units like the rest, we don't really have any OP builds either which hamstrings us in tournaments.

Actually, I'm quite glad Marines don't have a "win button" unit. Marines certainly aren't underpowered but to compete at the higher levels you need to play better than you did with the old codex. This can only be a good thing.

Warforger
10-04-2009, 19:59
Marines get the whirlwind, thunderfire cannon, and sternguards, all can ignore COVER saves. These weapons can totally screw over certain non MEQ armies. Space Marines don't get to whine.

Whirlwind-****** S and AP compared to Basilisk or Defiler, and is easy to kill
Sternguard- Same AP and S, costs a hellvua lot more then Tacticals and are just as tough, expensive as hell.
Thunderfire-100 Points for one wound and armor 10 which is automatically destroyed by any glance or penetrating hit

All of the things you said have a common weakeness, there expensive (except the Whirlwind) and are fragile. I will not dispute that they are good against hordes, however I will dispute Tactical Marines being gods of cc.

Guard can't really complain, they have battle cannons, oh and if you thought the whirly was bad enough, sure it can go hide behind a building and fire off, but so can the basilisk, and its way better.

Tyron
10-04-2009, 20:04
There are armies that will generally have less numbers than Marines. Aspect heavy Eldar and Grey Knights come to mind.

Eldar have amazing tanks, Grey Knights can ally themselves to compensate.

Actually, I'm quite glad Marines don't have a "win button" unit. Marines certainly aren't underpowered but to compete at the higher levels you need to play better than you did with the old codex. This can only be a good thing.

We never did have one.

Warforger
10-04-2009, 20:22
Las/plas squads and traits? There was alot of whining about that

Tyron
10-04-2009, 20:53
True, but they were very easy to counter.

tuebor
11-04-2009, 02:16
There are armies that will generally have less numbers than Marines. Aspect heavy Eldar and Grey Knights come to mind.

Eldar have amazing tanks, Grey Knights can ally themselves to compensate.

Actually, I'm quite glad Marines don't have a "win button" unit. Marines certainly aren't underpowered but to compete at the higher levels you need to play better than you did with the old codex. This can only be a good thing.

We never did have one.

Eldar tanks are great but they're also pricey. When the new Guard book hits and the Hydras come out I'd expect to see the metagame shift away from Mech Eldar a bit. As for Grey Knights I don't see allies as a legitimate fix to an army. A codex should be able to stand on its own without having to resort to pulling things from other books to fill in its weaknesses.

Perhaps Marines never had a "win button" (apart from the 3d Edition Rhino Rush monstrosity) but they certainly had a bunch of no-brainer choices that were extremely good. 6 man las plas, 6 man Terminator squads with 2 assault cannons, the Trait that allowed 2 assault weapons per squad, etc. Right now the Marine book is full of pretty solid choices. None of them excessively overwhelming but none of them really underwhelming either.


however I will dispute Tactical Marines being gods of cc.

As anyone should. However, there is a difference between being "gods of cc" and not being terrible. They'll outassault equal points of enemy shooty units and outshoot equal points of enemy assault units. Few units have that sort of flexibility.


Guard can't really complain, they have battle cannons, oh and if you thought the whirly was bad enough, sure it can go hide behind a building and fire off, but so can the basilisk, and its way better.

I never use the Basilisk because my regular opponents always get within that pesky 36" minimum range. I just use that slot for a third Russ instead.

At the moment Guard can complain because apart from gimmicky Drop Troops lists we have no reliable way of getting our troops to objectives apart from highly overcosted transports. We can kill things but we have lots of trouble taking objectives. When the new book hits both the Guard and Marines will have equal room to complain, which is none.

Tyron
11-04-2009, 02:23
None of them excessively overwhelming but none of them really underwhelming either.

And this is why Marines don't come top 10 in tournaments.

When the new book hits both the Guard and Marines will have equal room to complain, which is none.

Incorrect. Guard will be owning the majority of armies.

tuebor
11-04-2009, 02:32
And this is why Marines don't come top 10 in tournaments.

That's not a problem with the Marine book, that's a problem with other books, mainly Eldar and Orks, which I assume are at the top. To be honest, I've never been all that concerned with the big tournament results.


Incorrect. Guard will be owning the majority of armies.

For a while sure, and then the metagame will change and it'll balance out to a point. As a Guard player I'm glad we'll finally have a competitive list without resorting to drop troop plasma spam or other such silliness.

kaimarion
11-04-2009, 03:10
If it took 20 assault marines to take down 30 Orks then guess how many orks are leftover? I mean the orks T4 and WS4 really screws around with the tactical marines, then you realize the attacks back....... really nasty.
I'am not too sure what you meant by this but I'am guessing you are saying the marines win?

10 Tactical Marines 170
28 Orks (with sluggas and choppas) 168

If the tactical marines got the charge they would fire off their bolt pistols first which would kill about 3-5 orks then they get their CC attacks so about 10 will hit, about 5 will wound and one will be saved, so that's 8 dead before the orks can even attack back (low I) which means they would only get about 60 attacks and not 144. The orks are only S 3 aswell so they will only inflict around 12 wound which means about 2 marines will die, orks lose combat and since they are fearless(above 10 models) the will suffer extra wounds.

It is very unlikey that this will happen as the orks would be weakened by the tac squad before they even got into combat and even at that there is almost always a leader dude with PW or PF.


BTW I don't play marines.
EDIT: The marines would probably get beefed after the first turn but if those darn orks weren't fearless they would most likely get caught and killed.

Warforger
11-04-2009, 03:56
Are you really going to do that? I was saying my assault squads which should have whipped them orks into shape took too many men to kill just 30 orks, the entire army had like 100 orks, they were charged and killed by more orks. So much for "Being better then Orks in cc" this player I've always assaulted since I'm BA and have been trying to hit the weak spots but always fail.

Actually the tactical squad will be weakened by the ork shooting before being killed. Wait did we just try to dispute that Tacticals are the bestest unit evar? Really there is a reason marine players DON'T assault, actually if the Orks charge (meaning no flamer or bolt pistols) they'll have S4 and 4 attacks each.

What I'm saying is exactly what all seasoned marine players know, Tacticals are better left shooting, if you attempt to assault a horde be prepared to die.

EDIT:
In CC

So 2 die by attacks back?
Bolt Pistols:
6.6 hit
3.3 wound
3 dead
, now lets say they got the charge bonus and the segre has a chainsword
22 Attacks
11 hit
5.5 Wound
0-1 Orks saved

Orks:
75 attacks
37.5 hit
18 Wound
Approximately 6 dead.

Congrats, the Orks have killed 90 points, the marines have killed 30/40 points, not to mention now the Marines have ZOMG failed combat!
Now let's see if it was the other way around and the orks shoot and charge
28 shots
9 Hit
4-5 wound
3 Dead (45 points)
On assault
Marines

11 Attacks
5.5 Hit
2.525 Wound
112 attacks
56 Hit
28 Wound
10 die.


So 13/10 marines have died, 3/28 Orks have died, and the marines took 6 dead in return.

Brendi
11-04-2009, 13:21
I think the way youīre comparing the units is unfair.

The main thing being left out is the better synergy of the marine units.
Iīve noticed that while marines lack the specialised power units of some of the other races they support eachother really well.

Also as others have said before me marines are versatile and in war that is a very good thing.
If you work things into tandem then they excel when compared to other races.
Bolter fire works wonders against both nids and orks.
And ork and nid fire doesnīt work as good vs space marines.

All in all vs a big squad of orcs the only reason to assault with a tac squad is so that they donīt assault you.
Also your assault squads should be able to avoid the orks and assault on their own terms.

Thereīs also an inherent advantage to having small numbers. It is a lot easier to maneuvre and escape. The downside is that you canīt force your enemies around with your big numbers, but you donīt need to.

No, tac squads arenīt gods of cc, but they donīt suck. Purge the heretic with holy fire.


Ps: Also Ork boyz are generally considered under-priced for what they do, 3 attacks is just wrong.

Bunnahabhain
11-04-2009, 15:25
Guard can't really complain, they have battle cannons, oh and if you thought the whirly was bad enough, sure it can go hide behind a building and fire off, but so can the basilisk, and its way better.

Complaining about Whirlwinds in comparison to basilisks is daft. The Basilisk is massively limited by the minimum range for IDF, and costs considerably more.

Complaints about Guard getting 3 Griffons in the same heavy slot as 1 Whirlwind are rather more valid, although complaining the Guard get too much artillery is like complaining than marines get too many bolters, or Eldar are too fast; it does rather suggest you have missed a central theme of the army....

Warforger
11-04-2009, 18:05
Well the person I was replying too was saying Marines have too many anti-horde weapons. You don't have to use the IDF if you don't need too, you can always use the normal earthshaker and beat them Smurfs with a template which ignores there save.

The Thunderfire is there to balance out the fact that CSM don't have a whirly, but instead a walker with a battle cannon, ccw and better armor.

Like I said, now with the New Guard codex, do IG players really deserve to complain? They can complain, but then again look at there 5 plasma cannon shots Leman Russ, battle cannons, better armor, a crapload of High strength low AP large blasts. Would be like a Nazi claiming the KKK as "Obscene"

Tyron
11-04-2009, 18:21
That's not a problem with the Marine book, that's a problem with other books, mainly Eldar and Orks, which I assume are at the top. To be honest, I've never been all that concerned with the big tournament results.

And the focus of the discussion is in a competitive environment.


For a while sure, and then the metagame will change and it'll balance out to a point. As a Guard player I'm glad we'll finally have a competitive list without resorting to drop troop plasma spam or other such silliness.

Yiou will still get that with stormtroopers. The fact is IG wil be a top 3 army while marines will continue to not be seen in the top 10.

Warforger
11-04-2009, 18:22
Stormies aren't that bad, current codex has better options for anti-MEQ still (Battle cannon anyone?)

Tyron
11-04-2009, 18:24
Stormies aren't that bad, current codex has better options for anti-MEQ still (Battle cannon anyone?)

Or this (taken from b&cs)



Having extensively examined the new guard book, I have come across something that I am afraid will give us a world of hurt brothers.

I specifically referto to Guardsman Marbo.

While I will not post complete stat lines here is a quich highlight summary.

He costs a little less than two terminators.
Comes with a demo pack.
Can be PLACED anywhere on the board more than 1 inch away from an enemy model and does not scatter.
Comes with a AP2 sniper pistol.
Has WS comprable to a chaplain.
Has more attachs base than a space marine captain.
Always wounds on a 2+ in CC.

Just last night I saw this guy pop up, blast 6 plague marines into goo, and next turn visciously knife a greater deamon to death.
Any ideas about how we would deal with such a model?

Treadhead_1st
11-04-2009, 20:46
If you won't take Whirlwinds, Thunderfires or Sternguard to deal with horde units then, frankly, you deserve to get beaten in every game by horde units, as you aren't taking the viable options to deal with these threats. It's like a Guard player fielding only-Lasguns and moaning they can't kill anything. Yes, they are fragile, but draw fire away from them with fast units such as Land Speeders with dual-HBs or Heavy Flamers, or Typhoons, or Bike Squadrons, or deepstrike in some Terminators (fleet them with Shrike), rhino-rush the enemy so they have more important things to deal with and so on.

These 3 unit selections (less so Sternguard) can lay a world of hurt down on Horde troops, at the cost of them being fragile. But they have range advantages over the enemy grunts and are very cheap.

A Russ may kill off 1/2 to 2/3s a tactical squad in a turn (75-120pts), but for the cost you can get a Whirlwind and a Thunderfire which can kill off 2 Guard squads (100-150pts) a turn (and stand a high chance of pinning any survivors). Or a relatively beefy Assault Squad that'll rip through the enemy lines (provided you have some sort of distraction going or, or strike the right point, so you don't get shot to heck after winning combat).

Guard players and other non-MEQ players don't really have a right to complain, but you have no right to the Nazi/KKK analogy. Us Guardsmen have to buy very expensive Tanks to bypass Marine saves, as our basic infantry is rubbish against such foes. However, your basic troops (even Scouts) deny us our saves back, and clever application of the many, many fragile-but-deadly options open to the Marine player can break our forces very quickly too (so you have advantages in basic stats, basic equipment, speed and maneuverability).

So, to get around the heavy numbers, you have to either focus your limited-numbers forces onto one portion of our battleline (take out the tanks, strike one flank so the infantry on the other side is out of range, then consolidate onto objectives or push on into/around the firepower (mechanised, bikes or jump-packs) and you've won the game quite easily.

Should it be a shock that the Marines have to act out surgical-strikes with their better-than-average-across-the-board troops and vehicles, when the main design behind the army is surgical-strikes with highly-elite troops? This is why I say the Guard etc have no right to complain, particularly about denying armour saves - we have to use our big guns to fell such foes, and in order to actually win the game protect the Ordnance-slingers at all costs.

Yes, Guard get better Artillery/Battletanks, but that is what the Guard is. The basic troops are absolute rubbish against Marines, and though the new book means a potential 6 russes in 1500 points, these russes become weaker thanks to Squadron rules and thus easier to kill with the very fast, very cheap Multi-Melta attack bikes and so on. Without the Tanks the Guard will struggle to take the Marines out before you reach combat (where even the "pants in CC" Tactical Squad) will win with little problem.

So Marines aren't worse-off, they just have to play differently. Superiority in Small Areas, and combined-arms to limit the threats (aforementioned Tanks/Devastators/Speeders/Bikes to kill tanks, then roll the Infantry up with Assault Squads, Mechanised-Tacticals, Scouts and so on).

And Guard/Eldar/Tyranids/Etc aren't broken because they have the option to buy weapons that ignore Marine saves. These weapons are the only real chances these armies have against the superior stats the Marines poses (I often find it isn't the 3+sv that hampers the Guardsmen, but the T4) are these, in other peoples' opinions, "broken" choices. But these choices come at great cost and are still relatively vulnerable, particularly to the fast elements of the Marine list.

For the record, I play Marines and Imperial Guard, so I reckon I have some idea about what I'm talking about.

Summary: Marines play differently to non-Marines, neither is worse-off than the other, both have individual units/unit types superior to the other, so stop whinging and adapt your army to your local meta-game/what you think you will likely face in a tournament.