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FuzzyOrb
08-04-2009, 13:32
Hello, everybody!
I hope it's not too early for this thread, but I'm sure at least some of us have gathered some experience by now:cool:

This thread is meant for all kinds of tactical tweaks or general strategies an Isengard force can make use of, including allies .

To get the discussion rolling, i like to adress a matter that is debated recently:

The backbone of a proper force (for me) are formations of Phalances(?) and Uruk-Hai warriors with shields.
The question is: around 1000-1500 points, do I want to have the Phalanx to form a strong center (making it 4 companies big) and have it's flanks be protected by smaller formations of warriors?
Or is it better the other way around?
There are several pros and cons on both options and I'm looking forward to the discussion.:)

Master Stark
08-04-2009, 16:50
The way I'm looking at Isengard at the moment is sort of like this:

I want a strong core, that is going to be a bastard to try and move.

To achieve this, I take a very large formation of pikes.

I want to protect the flanks and rear of this formation.

To achieve this, I take a troll or three.

I want my opponent to charge into my pikes, and be killed.

To achieve this I take several crossbow formations and possibly seige ballistas to make the enemy come to me.

Now I want to protect those shooting elements, to ensure my opponent can't scam easy points by killing them.

To achieve this, I take a couple of warg rider formations and uruk hai infantry formations.

Lastly I want something that can fill gaps, and respond to enemy moves, so a couple of smaller infantry formations, with a variety of units and weapons, are included in the force.

dtjunkie19
08-04-2009, 17:41
That sounds very nasty to face but all of what you described sounds like a pretty large point force. I dont think you could manage quite all that at 1k or 1.5k

Selorian
08-04-2009, 18:03
What is your opinion on special characters within an Isengard force?

only joking...
08-04-2009, 18:16
What is your opinion on special characters within an Isengard force?

Saruman - The white wizard makes an excellent addition to a large pike block with the inspiring leader and overlord special rules as well as this his voice of Saruman rule may actually allow you to charge the enemy with flanking units such as trolls more quickly. On top of that he is one of the best magic users in the game and basically a must for most Isengard forces:cool:

Lurtz 4 might points, a fight value of six, epic strike and rage along with mighty blow make Lurtz a nasty addition to a unit of beserkers :evilgrin:

Wormtongue TBH I think Grima is the worst of the isengard special characters and while he can be a minor inconvenience to your oppenent, with another 25 points you can snag yourself another troll which would be a major inconvenience!

The Adept
08-04-2009, 19:18
I think Saruman is better in a unit of swordsmen. With defence 7 they'll last longer, and they go better with the Voice of Saruman. The pikes don't care if they get charged (providing you possition them correctly), while the swordsmen do. Having a 50% chance for that cavalry charge to stall out is great!

only joking...
08-04-2009, 19:30
I think Saruman is better in a unit of swordsmen. With defence 7 they'll last longer, and they go better with the Voice of Saruman. The pikes don't care if they get charged (providing you possition them correctly), while the swordsmen do. Having a 50% chance for that cavalry charge to stall out is great!

Hmmm thanks for that, it does work better actually. Voice of saruman success + swordsman = dead cavalry :evilgrin:

FuzzyOrb
08-04-2009, 19:37
Also remember to take a captain in the formation that holds saruman.
This is important to protect the sorcerer from duels by declaring an own heroic duel with the captain. This will of course not always work but can save your ass for a turn or two.;)

msoong
08-04-2009, 20:36
Lurtz 4 might points, a fight value of six, epic strike and rage along with mighty blow make Lurtz a nasty addition to a unit of beserkers :evilgrin:

Don't forget the Assassin's shot [sic] which makes Lurtz a good enemy hero remover.

Milton

Rirekon
08-04-2009, 21:52
Anyone tried putting Lurtz in with a Formation of Warg Riders (or allied Cavalry - Morgul Knights!)? I figure his Mighty Blow ability combined with Cavalry on the charge can probably take out just about anything.

Wargs are definitely next on my list for expanding beyond my first 1000 points :D

only joking...
08-04-2009, 23:14
Anybody used scout archers yet or is it better to save the points for the oh so sweet crossbows?

Nu Fenix
09-04-2009, 00:53
Wormtongue TBH I think Grima is the worst of the isengard special characters and while he can be a minor inconvenience to your oppenent, with another 25 points you can snag yourself another troll which would be a major inconvenience!

I have to disagree with you on this for your opinion of Grima. Whilst he won't do as much direct damage as a Troll, for example, he can certainly annoy the enemy! A Troll can be shot, doesn't lower the Fight value of enemies, or reduce Courage so units are more likely to fail a Courage check from another Troll, whereas Grima does.

Yes, there is a chance that the enemy rolls a double and removes him from the game, but I feel the controlling implication on what he does can be quite potent, especially when combined with Formations with Spirit Grasp, or a wizard with Spells of Dismay - Transfix and Visions of Woe.

only joking...
09-04-2009, 01:02
I have to disagree with you on this for your opinion of Grima. Whilst he won't do as much direct damage as a Troll, for example, he can certainly annoy the enemy! A Troll can be shot, doesn't lower the Fight value of enemies, or reduce Courage so units are more likely to fail a Courage check from another Troll, whereas Grima does.

Yes, there is a chance that the enemy rolls a double and removes him from the game, but I feel the controlling implication on what he does can be quite potent, especially when combined with Formations with Spirit Grasp, or a wizard with Spells of Dismay - Transfix and Visions of Woe.

TBH I understand and respect your opinion (and agree in a way) but I see Grima as more of a fun option if you have the points rather than an important part of a competitive build. The look on an opponents face when he is successfully combined with visions of woe must be funny though :D

Nu Fenix
09-04-2009, 01:12
He probably best used as an ally in a Mordor or Angmar list, with less use in Isengard, which does seem strange.

I feel he can be used in a competitive build, as reducing the Fight of the main combat unit for your opponent can gives them one less dice against you, or one more for you, as well as help when you [hopefully] win combat.

But the joy of this game, and the interwebs, is that different people will see different uses of the same model[s]. Look at Cort of the Fallen King in the Angmar threads, for example!

But yes, hammering your opponent with Visions while being hindered by Grima could wipe out an entire company!

tabletopnews
09-04-2009, 04:08
Back to the original question I think that the Phalanx is best used to deny cavalry charges and isn't the best bet for the core of a force. Its a defensive power. The Phalanx doesn't get a charge bonus due to the pikes and unless you're taking a charge from cavalry you aren't getting the most from the formation.

The Warband is a better idea for a core troop choice. It gets shields, which the Phalanx does not, has the same strength and gets the charge bonus.

The Phalanx is best used to guard the flanks of your Warbands to keep cav away from your flanks.

FuzzyOrb
09-04-2009, 07:58
The Warband is a better idea for a core troop choice. It gets shields, which the Phalanx does not, has the same strength and gets the charge bonus.

The Phalanx is best used to guard the flanks of your Warbands to keep cav away from your flanks.

I agree with you on this one.
Especially after i was informed in another thread that pikes do also work if you're flanked, which is what cavalry is going to try most of the time when they're attacking a flank.

Jorgen_CAB
09-04-2009, 08:30
Remember that pikes will give you +1 Fight in any direction but do not negate the additional charge dice if engaged at either flank or rear.

Rirekon
09-04-2009, 09:08
Remember that pikes will give you +1 Fight in any direction but do not negate the additional charge dice if engaged at either flank or rear.

Nitpick/clarification;
They will negate the charge bonus of any enemy that charges you in the front, regardless of whether you are also engaged in the rear/flank

Jorgen_CAB
09-04-2009, 09:35
Nitpick/clarification;
They will negate the charge bonus of any enemy that charges you in the front, regardless of whether you are also engaged in the rear/flank

That was what I meant, just phrased is badly... :)

FuzzyOrb
09-04-2009, 10:00
That was what I meant, just phrased is badly... :)

Ah, now i got it, thanks, you two.

Sarah S
09-04-2009, 16:47
What do people think of the Uruk-Hai Sappers?
I don't think they seem usable.

The formation removal rules means that if they take 4 casualties (which is all too easy with their D5), the formation is removed.
When their formation is removed they explode.
This requires you to keep them pretty far from your lines and lacking a hero they can't make use of Heroic Moves or at the double which means they are very slow indeed.

Now I understand they are only 30 points, but they seem to me to be a waste of 30 points when they so easily give up a dead company to your opponent.
Explosive demise is quite possibly devastating but it just seems that it would, more often than not, be devastating to the owning player rather than the opponent.
Am I missing something?

Rirekon
09-04-2009, 16:53
Stick them out on the wing and send them flanking.

It's a unit which your opponent can't afford to ignore, which means for one round at least there's less shooting coming the way of your more valuable units. Also being only a single company means your opponent is forced to overkill them, which means wasted shots.

I'm definitely going to try a single formation in 1500+ games.

only joking...
09-04-2009, 17:14
I have only seen them used once, during which they blew a mighty impressive hole in their own and the enemies army. I will probably only use them in larger games as they seem at bit risky at anything lower than 1500.

FuzzyOrb
09-04-2009, 22:40
I'm also not so excited about sappers.
One could use other companies to block LOS to the sappers as long as the enemy doesn't have a hill, but it is still dangerous.

HOWever

Here's a good one on Vashkus crossbowmen:
Take the max of 3 companies and place them as forwarded as you can in your deployment zone.
As vrashku has 3 might, you could now call heroic movement and move 18'' across the board.
Now you call heroic shooting to have them fire.
Last step is using the last might to give the formation shooting of 2 for that turn.
As you are now below half range to almost anything in the enemy army, you can inflict serious damage on anything that seems the biggest thread to you, including enemy archers, cavalry or even warmachines!:skull:

Just make sure to back up your now forwarded unit as soon as possible and stay out of charge range of cavalry, especially without backup!

tabletopnews
10-04-2009, 01:12
I think Sappers are to give people who have the figures some way to include them in their force. I can't see using them on a regular basis but I am also still going to put a unit of them together for a surprise against some Elves :-)

stonehorse
10-04-2009, 02:18
I'm also not so excited about sappers.
One could use other companies to block LOS to the sappers as long as the enemy doesn't have a hill, but it is still dangerous.

HOWever

Here's a good one on Vashkus crossbowmen:
Take the max of 3 companies and place them as forwarded as you can in your deployment zone.
As vrashku has 3 might, you could now call heroic movement and move 18'' across the board.
Now you call heroic shooting to have them fire.
Last step is using the last might to give the formation shooting of 2 for that turn.
As you are now below half range to almost anything in the enemy army, you can inflict serious damage on anything that seems the biggest thread to you, including enemy archers, cavalry or even warmachines!:skull:

Just make sure to back up your now forwarded unit as soon as possible and stay out of charge range of cavalry, especially without backup!

That might be best suited for a late game move, by then the enemy will be reduced in numbers, and not expecting something as brutal as 33 strength 4 crossbow shots, which could push the enemy to a point where they are unable to react to such a threat... or recover.

skallagrimsson
10-04-2009, 09:13
I like the idea of the sappers - all that needs to be done is a dirty filthy method of using them to the best advantage. I like the flank move idea - that they become an arrow magnet. For 30 points its not too bad. Any more points and i would steer clear of them.

I am trying to gather together Uruk berserkers - i like the unit R2 and indominable and horrible to be on the recieving end.

Isengard suffers from the lack of large quantities of epic heroes. The legendary formations aren't bad but the Uruks are tied to only 3 companies max.

My 1,000 pt army that i will hopefully have a go with today is

Saruman

Lurtz

4 companies Phalanx (w Captain)

4 companies Warband (w Captain

1 compnay Scouts (w bows)

3 companies Warg Riders

1 Troll ( I love trolls. I may rejig some time to include more. Just for the hell of it)

TOTAL 990

Feedback? I intend for Saruman and Lurtz to go into the warband, with phalanx to deny one flank along with the Troll, wargs deny the other flank with support from the scout bows.

I think realistically, i need maybe 1 or 2 more companies of bows to make any helpful impact but i want to see how it all works out.

Would love the crossbows - but i am on a budget here and don't want to spend a fortune (which strangely i already have).

Saruman is an excellent spell caster with a free epic action every turn. Lurtz is a hero sniper and brutal in close combat.

will try to update on how i get on. see what tactics work and what does not.

Crovax20
14-04-2009, 15:30
Personally I would make the scouts 2 companies strong. 1 company only needs to suffer 4 casualties. If your opponent has a hill and a warmachine you can expect them to be removed on turn 1.

Other than that, saruman is quite expensive for a 1k point game. I used him in 1.5k... Saruman is very nice though. for 1k I guess you could take some ringwraith instead.. Also in 1k points, I think 3 companies strong would be good enough as well for your other units.

My 1.5k lists looks something like this
Saruman
Lurtz
Vrasku's talons 3 comps
Sharku's talons 4 comps
Ugluk's raiders 3 comps
Uruk-hai siege ballista
Troll
Pikes 4 comps
Warriors 4 comps

add in some captains and stuff.

Also when adding in legendary formation, don't forget that the first company still needs to be payed for. For example when it says 95+35 per company the first company will cost 130 and not 95.

FuzzyOrb
14-04-2009, 16:50
Also when adding in legendary formation, don't forget that the first company still needs to be payed for. For example when it says 95+35 per company the first company will cost 130 and not 95.

Um, personally i think that they made it very clear that the points for the legendary leader (vrashku for example) are already included in the 95 points.
I mean, they just wrote it down, under "command". At least in german, it's written very clearly but of cause i don't know the english wording...

Rirekon
14-04-2009, 17:37
I did get the feeling that the initial cost includes the command company and then you paid extra for each one after that... the wording is less than clear however (reading the entire entry) so I can see it both ways.

FuzzyOrb
14-04-2009, 18:09
Yeah, on a second note, i see where you're coming from, Crovax...
The basic cost could be something you just pay when you want to include the formation and then you start paying for the actually taken companies:rolleyes:.
What i ask myself however is, if the hero is included in the base cost, what else do you pay those 95 (or 100/115) points for?
Of course it could be just the cost for the hero but i dont see why they would't just write this then:rolleyes:. On the other hand, we all got to know GW...
It would be very helpful if someone could quote the exact english wording though.

Crovax20
14-04-2009, 18:54
Look into your book. Take Vrasku's talons for example, 1 crossbow unit + captain is 85 points. Vrasku talons would only be 10 points more?

Actually some legendary formations become cheaper than taking the same formation with captain. Look at the dwarven ones for example.

It would strike me as extremely strange, when a legendary formation would be cheaper than a normal formation with captain ;)

FuzzyOrb
14-04-2009, 19:38
It would strike me as extremely strange, when a legendary formation would be cheaper than a normal formation with captain ;)

Yeah, i noticed that, too. Then again, you can only tale these legendary formations once and they generally have less companies max then regular ones... But it doesn't really matter to me to be honest, i would really love to hear the wording before i decide.

Crovax20
14-04-2009, 21:08
Yeah, i noticed that, too. Then again, you can only tale these legendary formations once and they generally have less companies max then regular ones... But it doesn't really matter to me to be honest, i would really love to hear the wording before i decide.

Also look at the battle they do at the beginning of the book. Ugluks raiders 3 companies come down to 205 points or something, which does come down to x+Y for the first company. But then again the beserker unit they list as 75 points which is listed as 110 later on in the book.

Anyhow I didn't think of it at first either untill a GW staff member pointed it out. Although it isn't officially confirmed it did seem very probable since some formations are actually cheaper when its the legendary one. Provided you buy a captain for it.

Sarah S
14-04-2009, 21:22
To calculate the cost for a legendary formation, just follow the instructionsin the unit entry.

Ugluk's Raiders cost 115 points + 30 per company.

So if I want to take a formation of 4 companies of Ugluk's Raiders, the cost will be
115 points + 30 per company

Since I have 4 companies, that's 120 points added to the 115 for a total of 235 points.

Easy peasy. There's really nothing unclear once you parse it properly and realize that the rule DOESN'T say "+30 points per additional company."

Rirekon
14-04-2009, 22:18
To quote one of the actual entries;

75 points + 30 per company
<...>
The first company purchased is automatically the command company and has Grishnakh included in the base cost.
I used this example because it's one of the simpler ones, all Legendary formations like this use the same "The first company purchases is automatically the command company and has <x> included in the base cost" format. Now the base cost is the first cost (75 points in this case), if the base cost includes the command company then the extra cost is for each company after that.

FuzzyOrb
14-04-2009, 22:26
To quote one of the actual entries;

I used this example because it's one of the simpler ones, all Legendary formations like this use the same "The first company purchases is automatically the command company and has <x> included in the base cost" format. Now the base cost is the first cost (75 points in this case), if the base cost includes the command company then the extra cost is for each company after that.

That's my point. If your quotation is the actual wording, it definitely indicates that both the command company and the hero are included in the base cost.
I mean, what else should be included?

Lord Asuryan
14-04-2009, 22:41
this may not mean much, but in april WD, every single legendary formation was payed for as if you had to pay base cost+x for EACH company,including the first. a lot of formations would be unfair, otherwise--see court of the dead king, which costs less than 4 basic companies of army of the dead, at same #, under this method.

Sarah S
14-04-2009, 22:44
No it doesn't indicate that. Your argument falls down because you have made an unwarranted assumption that "the base cost is the first cost (75 points in this case)."
There is nothing to justify that assumption. It is just as reasonable to assume that the "base cost" is 75 points + 30 points, as I will demonstrate:

The entire matter is determined by the unit entry not saying "+30 points per additional company." The unit entry says "+30 points per company."

You must pay 30 points for each and every company in the formation.

Look at it this way:
You pay 75 points for the FORMATION. That formation has 0 companies.
You pay 30 points for the FIRST COMPANY, and that company (being the first company purchased) is the command company and includes the heroes, standards, whatever.

Rirekon
15-04-2009, 09:26
No it doesn't indicate that. Your argument falls down because you have made an unwarranted assumption that "the base cost is the first cost (75 points in this case)."
There is nothing to justify that assumption.

I'm not making any assumptions, "+ 30 points" is, by definition, an additional cost, the base cost is therefore 75 points by it's very nature.


It is just as reasonable to assume that the "base cost" is 75 points + 30 points, as I will demonstrate:

The entire matter is determined by the unit entry not saying "+30 points per additional company." The unit entry says "+30 points per company."

You must pay 30 points for each and every company in the formation.

Look at it this way:
You pay 75 points for the FORMATION. That formation has 0 companies.
You pay 30 points for the FIRST COMPANY, and that company (being the first company purchased) is the command company and includes the heroes, standards, whatever.

If you're paying 75 points for the Formation then that's the base cost ;)

Now I agree that neither argument here is watertight, GW have been as ambiguous as usual, but the fact that they list a base cost (75 points in this case) and specify that the Command Company is included as part of that cost makes me lean towards that being correct.
I'd accept either way with an FAQ, it's not a case of wanting to get stuff cheaper - it's just the way that makes the most sense out of the two when reading it in full.

Sarah S
15-04-2009, 19:17
It says "the first company purchased"

If you haven't paid 30 points "PER COMPANY" then you haven't purchased any companies.

Jorgen_CAB
15-04-2009, 19:50
I'm not making any assumptions, "+ 30 points" is, by definition, an additional cost, the base cost is therefore 75 points by it's very nature.



If you're paying 75 points for the Formation then that's the base cost ;)

Now I agree that neither argument here is watertight, GW have been as ambiguous as usual, but the fact that they list a base cost (75 points in this case) and specify that the Command Company is included as part of that cost makes me lean towards that being correct.
I'd accept either way with an FAQ, it's not a case of wanting to get stuff cheaper - it's just the way that makes the most sense out of the two when reading it in full.

It really would make no sense if the cost of a legendary formation included one company. And it does not say so either anyway. It says that you pay X amount for the Legendary "Formation" and then you pay Y amount for each company that it will contain. please look at the points cost of the units, they are cheap as they are.
Look at Haldirs elves for example, for 95p you get a Haldir (3 Might and the Take Aim special ability), a banner and a Hornblower. A regular captain, banner and Hornblower are 100p... it really are cheap enough...

Nu Fenix
15-04-2009, 20:17
Even with the actual price you pay for Haldir's Elves, they are amazing value for the extra benefit gained.

And using Haldir's Elves as a price example seems strangely familiar ;)

Rirekon
15-04-2009, 21:03
It says "the first company purchased"

If you haven't paid 30 points "PER COMPANY" then you haven't purchased any companies.

included in the base cost, see I can quote random sections too ;)
Seriously though, the base cost of the formation is the first one (i.e. 75), the cost per company is an additional cost.


It really would make no sense if the cost of a legendary formation included one company. And it does not say so either anyway.

Sure it does, it says;
"The first company purchased is automatically the command company and has Grishnakh included in the base cost."
The base cost is the first cost (as previously mentioned... several times).


It says that you pay X amount for the Legendary "Formation" and then you pay Y amount for each company that it will contain. please look at the points cost of the units, they are cheap as they are.

It also says the first company is included in the base cost, blah blah blah said it all before.


Look at Haldirs elves for example, for 95p you get a Haldir (3 Might and the Take Aim special ability), a banner and a Hornblower. A regular captain, banner and Hornblower are 100p... it really are cheap enough...

The values of all Epic/Legendary selections are way of patch when compared to their normal equivalents.

I am not saying that this method is definitely the right of way doing, I'm just pointing out that it's as supported as the dual-cost method. It feels like the right way to do it too, paying for something just to be able to buy more just feels very wrong.

Sarah S
15-04-2009, 21:14
included in the base cost, see I can quote random sections too
Seriously though, the base cost of the formation is the first one (i.e. 75), the cost per company is an additional cost.

There is no evidence for that.

It says per company.

It says the first company purchased.

If you don't pay the per company cost, you haven't purchased any companies.

The book follows the X+Y points values in every army list.

The GW website follows the X+Y points values in every army list.

While GW has been known to make mistakes before, they haven't here.

Rirekon
15-04-2009, 21:26
Just because they use X+Y a lot doesn't change the fact that
X = base cost
Y = additional cost, anything which is needed in addition isn't a base cost.

Saying X=Y is a base cost is not only making an assumption, it's also inaccurate. Now I'd fully accept that GW have done the same, but so far the rules support both interpretations with flaws and neither really stands out.

Sarah S
15-04-2009, 21:33
X = base cost
Y = additional cost, anything which is needed in addition isn't a base cost.

Saying X=Y is a base cost is not only making an assumption, it's also inaccurate. Now I'd fully accept that GW have done the same, but so far the rules support both interpretations with flaws and neither really stands out.

Yes, paying the full price stands out because:
a.) it is consistent with paying "+x points per company" not "+x points per additional company"
b.) It is ridiculous that the legendary companies would, in almost all cases, be a vast sum of points cheaper than the equivalent normal companies without special rules.
c.) it's how GW did it in every case in the rulebook.

WhiteLion
15-04-2009, 22:00
c.) it's how GW did it in every case in the rulebook.


While I understand the confusion, I'd say it is pretty clear that your 1st legendary company = base cost + company cost based on the above argument. It's the best evidence out there.

skallagrimsson
16-04-2009, 16:02
Just to let you know - i went up against Khamul the Easterling, Sulladan, Kandish Kiing, kandish horse and a bucket load of corsairs with that dalamyr (?) in it. It was the token scenario - i lost - 3 tokens to 2 and came down the the last 2 rolls of my magic phase. saruman is seriously excellent. My opponent pointed and giggled 'Eggs - basket' as i had both Saruman and Lurtz in the one warband formation. Found i needed the 4 company formations to keep going against the cav. Fire balls are fun.

Throughly enjoyed the whole game. Pikes really good in fending off that dratted cavalry, and Lurtz was great in leading those epic strike charges. Had moral victory with Khamul and Sulladan dead. Lurtz and Saruman still hanging around.

One good tactic, which i learned from the stupid loss of my Troll, is if you have priority and are fighting Khamul do all the other fights first. Did the fight against Khamul before the fight between my troll and his archers, and was within range of Khamuls special power. Killed my troll before he could smack those pesky arrow boys. Remember, Khamul last, not first.

Sarah S
16-04-2009, 16:22
Remember, Khamul last, not first.

Unless you are in position to murder him with a Heroic Duel.

Marauder
16-04-2009, 17:13
Now I'd fully accept that GW have done the same, but so far the rules support both interpretations with flaws and neither really stands out.

Except that in every example they have in the book they are paying X+Y for the first company. Also, if it were only X for the first company, every single legendary formation would be a far better deal than every common/rare formation. If you ignore these two items, than yes, I can see how you could interpret it either way.

Rirekon
16-04-2009, 17:36
Sarah S & Marauder;
I hadn't spotted that was how GW were doing things in the book, that alone seals it for me. Thanks for point that out.
Semantics vs Semantics will never win an argument ;)

Now back to the business of tactics.

skallagrimsson
16-04-2009, 20:16
Unless you are in position to murder him with a Heroic Duel.

True. But i did not have any Might left for Lurtz to slap that Nazgul into tomorrow. My poor Troll. I didn't mean it. It was Sauron's fault.

wazyu
18-04-2009, 19:47
in my army i just charge a very big unit of pikes up the middle and a very big unit of swords by the side and with wargs and scouts keeping an eye on flanks along with some cave trolls protecting my flanks
, the list is this basically and its just forward march and munch;
lurtz 175pts
saruman 240pts
uruk-hai warband 6 companies captain 260pts
uruk-hai phalanx 6 companies captain 260pts
uruk-hai scout warband 4 companies sheilds captain 190pts
uruk-hai scout warband 2 companies bows 70pts
isengard troll 100
isengard troll 100
warg riders 4 companies sheilds 100
total 1495 done :)
so yer but it can combat any army and packin a punch saruman is a must have in a forse choose him over unit shamans any day to pricey 100pts each?!?!?!?!?!

Rirekon
22-04-2009, 10:21
Had a 500 point game against Dwarves to get my feet wet with WotR, I was using;
Lurtz
Warband (2 Companies)
Phalanx (2 Companies + Captain and Banner)
Troll

My opponent had;
Legendary formation (I forget the name, the one with orcbane and 2 heroes)
Warriors with shields
Warriors with bows

So here's what I took away from it;
The Troll was a little underwhelming to be honest. Sure he was pretty much untouchable but it just wasn't killing enough to be worth while.
Ranged attacks are vicious against already wounded Formations, I definitely want to get some Crossbows (anyone know if they're coming in plastic?).
Lurtz Assassin's Shot isn't all that great, though maybe it will work better in a game with more Heroes around.

The Adept
22-04-2009, 11:30
I definitely want to get some Crossbows (anyone know if they're coming in plastic?).


If you get some uruk sappers (with the ladders and so on), and give them dark elf crossbows (no repeater magazine, no blade on the front), they look very nice. The sappers have an open hand to hold the crossbow, and the warhammer DE crossbows are just the right size. Other crossbows might work, but I had a load of DE ones spare. The rest of the sapper stuff goes into the bits box.

FuzzyOrb
22-04-2009, 12:06
If you get some uruk sappers (with the ladders and so on), and give them dark elf crossbows (no repeater magazine, no blade on the front), they look very nice. The sappers have an open hand to hold the crossbow, and the warhammer DE crossbows are just the right size. Other crossbows might work, but I had a load of DE ones spare. The rest of the sapper stuff goes into the bits box.

Oh wow, how cool, that is exacely what i am doing right now:D.
And you even have 16 crossbows in a box, enough for two companies.
It's really the best way to convert the crossbowmen in my opinion.

Rirekon
22-04-2009, 12:06
Might have to go with Scouts for now then, thanks for the conversion idea though :)

So after that battle I'm looking at what to expand it to 1000 with. I'm currently thinking of adding another box of Uruk-hai and command blister, two boxes of Scouts, and a box of Wargs

If memory servers this should come to just under 1000?
Lurtz
Warband (4 Companies + Captain and Banner)
Phalanx (4 Companies + Captain and Banner)
Scouts with bows (2 Companies)
Scouts with shields (4 Companies)
Wargs (3 Companies)
Troll

FuzzyOrb
23-04-2009, 16:10
Oh wow, how cool, that is exacely what i am doing right now:D.
And you even have 16 crossbows in a box, enough for two companies.
It's really the best way to convert the crossbowmen in my opinion.

Update: I just got my crossbows and was happy to find out that there are even 24 in one dark elves box! So i can even max out my vrashkus talons:D.

huntroll
29-04-2009, 20:23
Time to bring some life into this thread :D

So, I'm interested in starting WotR, most likely with Isengard and I have some questions to the veteran uruk-hai captains.

First, is 5 boxes of Fighting Uruk-hai (2x6 companies), 3 units of Uruks with Crossbows with Vrashku, Lurtz, a company of Berserkes and probably a couple of Trolls or Warmachines a good start?

Concerning the Warmachines... Is the Assault Ballista worth it compared to the Mordor siege bows? Theyre 2/3 cheaper than the Ballistas and the only difference is one point of Strenght...

koran
30-04-2009, 00:05
Just a quick note about the army I just used that did AMAZING. Very fun to play and just trounced a vet who has been playing a lot of WOTR. I can see how this army might fail against some (Im mostly thinking Mumuks). Just so you know this was against a force of elves and allied rohan.

1000pts

Ringwraith: Kamul

Ringwraith: Cant remember his name, but the one that only allows being shot at close range

4 companies of uruks (not pikes, just standard guys) with banner
2 companies or orcs with shields (basically to get in the way of flanking cavalry and taking a charge so you can flank)
2 companies of crossbowmen
4 companies of dunlending horsemen (these guys are AMAZING! Every force should have some, not allowing the enemy a bonus for being in defendable terrain is great).
2 Troll Chieftains (cos the extra 50 pts is SO worth it for might points, better fight and being very hard to kill as opposed to just hard to kill).

It also has changed my opinion of the game totally. Some people complain its all about who gets to do first... TOTALLY untrue. I won the priority about half the time and every time opted to go second. Unless your a shooting army Id say going second is WAY more advantageous than going first.

Sarah S
30-04-2009, 00:31
Any advantage in going first or second really varies a lot depending on the situation.

You can't counter-charge if you have go first, but you can't charge at all if you get charged - so there's a lot to think about.

Sporne
30-04-2009, 03:23
Planning on starting a WotR army and im pretty sure i want to do Isengard. Heres the list im planning to buy models for and i hope i can get some criticism on it. Am i going too heavy on the Heroes? (Trying to keep costs low.)

Saruman

Uruk Phalanx-4 Companies-Captain, Banner, and Shaman.

Uruk Warband-4 Companies-Captain, Banner, and Shaman.

Isengard Troll

Total-990

Orangecoke
30-04-2009, 04:36
4 companies of dunlending horsemen (these guys are AMAZING! Every force should have some, not allowing the enemy a bonus for being in defendable terrain is great).




What models are you using to represent these?

Angelust
30-04-2009, 06:27
Sporne - Generally, I'd recommend epic casters over shamans any day. Two ringwraiths are 50 more pts total, and give you might, special abilities, and lotsa other options. I'd recommend dropping the captains and shamans on both companies, and taking Nazgul instead. You'll have a little less might, but a lot more oomph I think.

Also, you may want to drop a troll for some more bread and butter...i.e. orcs, wild men, or something of the like.

My thoughts at least...

huntroll
30-04-2009, 07:47
Sporne - Generally, I'd recommend epic casters over shamans any day. Two ringwraiths are 50 more pts total, and give you might, special abilities, and lotsa other options. I'd recommend dropping the captains and shamans on both companies, and taking Nazgul instead. You'll have a little less might, but a lot more oomph I think.

Also, you may want to drop a troll for some more bread and butter...i.e. orcs, wild men, or something of the like.

My thoughts at least...

Nazguls in Isengard are not too fluffy, however... :P But for unfluffy combos, what about Amdur + Berserkers? They have higher Strenght than Half-Trolls, and with some meat shields they can be delivered to the fight unhurt...

Jorgen_CAB
30-04-2009, 07:53
Sporne - Generally, I'd recommend epic casters over shamans any day. Two ringwraiths are 50 more pts total, and give you might, special abilities, and lotsa other options. I'd recommend dropping the captains and shamans on both companies, and taking Nazgul instead. You'll have a little less might, but a lot more oomph I think.

Also, you may want to drop a troll for some more bread and butter...i.e. orcs, wild men, or something of the like.

My thoughts at least...

Nazgul in an Isengard army?!?!? I really don't think Saruman would be too happy with them defiling his finest troops. ;)

Sure, the Nazgul are powerful, but in my opinion you should stick with your theme and use the Shamans. The problem with your army is that you have too few tactical units. Saruman just is too expensive in such a small army.
I would either take the two shamans or Saruman.
Preferably I would just take one shaman and Lurtz and some additional troops. It will make the game more fun for you in the end.

Angelust
30-04-2009, 07:53
Yeah, not too fluffy I admit. The Nazgul and Saruman never particularly got along...but in a way, Saruman actually going out to battle is not too fluffy either... :-)

koran
30-04-2009, 10:38
I wouldnt bother with Saruman.... Hes a huge point sink and not that he isnt great in anything under 2k I dont rate him.

I was model repping the dunlending horses but if I did use them (which I will after that test) Id just use rohan models converted up a bit.

And yeah the army isnt too fluffy but so are most of the ones Ive seen in my local. If the armies werent so abusable then I wouldnt have to resort to such things ;p

Sporne
01-05-2009, 01:37
Thanks all for the criticsm. Heres another list:

Lurtz

Uruk Phalanx-4 companies-Shaman

Uruk Warband-4 companies-Captain, Banner

Uruk Warband or Phalanx-4 companies (which would be better?)-Captain

Troll Chieftan

Fate-Morgoth's curse

Total-1005

Pyroyeti
04-05-2009, 07:32
went crazy with isengard!

Saruman
Lurtz
The Betrayer
Vrashku's talons (3 companies)
Uruk-hai Warband (6 companies) +Captain, Banner Bearer
Uruk-hai Phalanx (3 companies)
Uruk-hai Phalanx (3 companies)
Uruk-hai Scouts w/ Shields (5 companies) +Captain, Banner Bearer
Berserkers
Troll Captain
Troll Captain
Assault Ballista

TOTAL 1990

Angelust
04-05-2009, 08:23
Pyroyeti- Hey, welcome to the forums. You probably want to edit out the pt costs of the units, since it's against the rules.

Otherwise, looks like a nasty list. Might be hard to maneuver though. ;)

Pyroyeti
04-05-2009, 08:30
my gw store lets us play on 4x6 tables so having enough room usually isnt a problem. any other suggestions?

WarInHeaven
04-05-2009, 19:02
i have got a few qestions for u guys:

i got some wildmen of dunland lying around -> use them or just trow them on E(vil)-BAY?

using Isengard orks as meatshealds/cheap archers?

scouts well... any good?

Sporne
05-05-2009, 01:14
Wildmen are cheap ambushers and they would seem to be good for winning that one very important combat with their charging into a flank or rear with the strength bonus. Havent actually used them tho but they seem good on paper.

PolishSausage
09-05-2009, 14:16
Guys, lets talk Wargs, shields/bows bare squadrons & Sharku.
Tell me how you see Wargs being efficient and why.

I am just starting and these were the models that pushed me to play WoTR, and would love to have at least 15+ companies (got 9 so far & Sharku)

Angelust
09-05-2009, 15:42
Personally, I think Warg Riders are surprisingly better suited for Mordor. Isengard needs to use Warg Riders as rare, so I'm actually writing my lists with Mordor Ally Warg Riders because I'm always so short on common choices.

You could make a force of all Mordor Warg Riders, and then take Sharku as an ally!


Personally, I'm not super fond of warg riders, though they are a very cheap cav unit. I personally stay away from upgrades and keep them bare bones cheap.

WhiteLion
11-05-2009, 23:34
Personally, I think Warg Riders are surprisingly better suited for Mordor. Isengard needs to use Warg Riders as rare, so I'm actually writing my lists with Mordor Ally Warg Riders because I'm always so short on common choices.

You could make a force of all Mordor Warg Riders, and then take Sharku as an ally!


Personally, I'm not super fond of warg riders, though they are a very cheap cav unit. I personally stay away from upgrades and keep them bare bones cheap.

I agree that Isengard does seem to lack for options and numbers in terms of common formations, maybe even with the fewest of any realm, especially since they are all infantry, which to be effective take up some space on the battlefield. I haven't played any very large games yet, so not sure how this will work out, but in a small game I played I had 4 companies pikes, 4 companies of warband, 2 companies of scouts, and a troll and the field felt pretty full for about 700 points...

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 01:30
Each realm has its advantages and disadvantages, so while Isengard has really good infantry, it lacks in both variety of core units and in some roles, such as cavalry. It is far from the most limited list though, as the Dwarves have even less diversity of units, having no casters or cavalry at all.

WhiteLion
12-05-2009, 04:41
Each realm has its advantages and disadvantages, so while Isengard has really good infantry, it lacks in both variety of core units and in some roles, such as cavalry. It is far from the most limited list though, as the Dwarves have even less diversity of units, having no casters or cavalry at all.


Very true, and I agree that the list is very solid.

Angelust
12-05-2009, 17:39
Having Warg Riders be rare was a mistake in my opinion. It makes it difficult to field a pure isengard force when the points start scaling up, because you are forced to take lots and lots of troops, which clutters the battlefield pretty fast.

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 22:55
But Warg Riders in the lore are not exceedingly common in Isengard. Also the theme of the army as predominantly infantry would be hurt if Warg Riders were common. There are lacks in almsot every list, except perhaps Mordor, in order to establish different ways of playign the game.

moar barmu
12-05-2009, 22:57
Anyone want to do a unit by unit and hero by hero analysis of Isengard. Thanks

Mephaine
14-05-2009, 12:02
Howdy all. I was some what suprised no one uses a rather dirty little combo I personally love in the game. Sadly if your a fluff user this is useless but for competitive builds this one is insanely sick. Best bit is how effective overall the unit is.

The Betrayer+Feral Uruk-hai Berserkers(maxed out)=285 points

Ok this unit is a beast and is really made for late game sweeping or destroying your foe's range support while his main force is up in your lines. I test played this against many foes and most likely I see at least 1 terrain piece in each third of the table so one your side, one your foes and one in the middle. Now here is the fun part.

The unit as many know Ambushes so straight away a big plus as this protects the unit from nasty range support for a few turns. Second it has a Ringwraith, yes sadly with him as the only hero it wouldn't be easy to character kill but overall weakening your target before combat begins makes him handy. Finally the charge. Now assuming things go your way you will get a normal charge with a normal zerk bonus. Against the rear or flank of an enemy....yeah ouch. Oh yeah and to top it off The Betrayer special rule of rerolls To Hit. This is doom in a can. I tested it against alot of things and the only thing with an amazing chance to hold is the Warden of the Keys due to them being Defence 8 normal. So yeah try it out cause I personally think it works well.

DDogwood
15-05-2009, 05:58
Having Warg Riders be rare was a mistake in my opinion. It makes it difficult to field a pure isengard force when the points start scaling up, because you are forced to take lots and lots of troops, which clutters the battlefield pretty fast.

Well, you can have up to 25% of your army in "common" Warg Riders by using Mordor allies. Mechanically, they're identical to the "rare" Isengard Warg Riders. So you can say "mechanically these Warg Riders are allies, but I'm just treating them as more Isengard Warg Riders."

If your opponent is going to make a big stink about something like this, then you should find a different opponent.

FuzzyOrb
21-05-2009, 20:14
Ok, time to fuel this discussion a little bit.

I for one would really love to have a giant formation of 9 orc-companies with 2-handed weapons (yes, we also have orcs;)) marching across the battlefield straight up to the objective or the center of the enemy battle line.
I thought about shielding this block with a line of 4 companies of shielded Uruk-hai on the front and having the flanks guarded with pikes and trolls.

My question is: Do you think that this maneuver is viable?
Do you have other uses for orcs in our list?
Share your thoughts:)

xxRavenxx
21-05-2009, 21:40
Can I just add that isengard lacks very much in epic heros too.

Saruman is very expencive, especialy given that a captain can kick him to the curb with ease in a dual.

Lurtz is overpriced in my humble opinion. He doesnt do nearly enough for 175 points. But you have to live with him to get any characters into the list.

The wargbain guy is awesome however. 2 Might, decent special rule, and epic strike, for a low low cost. (He's hilarious in bezerkers too.)

It sadly means that isengard only really has one good movable character, and noone to really ally in flavourfully.

symbiont
22-05-2009, 03:13
Hey everyone! How's this 2k list?

Epic Hero: Saruman the White Hand

Epic Hero:Lurtz

Epic Hero:Thrydan Wolfsbane

Legendary Formation:Sharku's Hunters w/ five companies and bows

Legendary Formation:Mauhur's Mauraders w/ three companies

Common Formation:Uruk-hai Phalanx w/ six companies,captain,standard bearer,and drummer

Common Formation:Uruk-hai Warband w/ six companies,captain,standard bearer,and drummer

Common Formation:Uruk-hai Warband w/ two companies and crossbows

Rare Formation:Berserker Warband w/ one company

Rare Formation: Dunlending Huscarls w/ six companies and shields

Rare Formation: Dunlending Wildmen w/ three companies

Rare Formation:Isengard Troll Captain

Total=1990

Infantry companies-28

Cavalry companies-5

Monsters-1

What do you think of it? All I need to buy is Saruman,a box of uruks,and a blister of berserkers.

revolting
23-06-2009, 20:32
Hi, just starting out with WotR and struggling to see the benefit of uruk hai scouts. Got a load of them in a bulk lot on ebay.

Pike, shield and crossbow warriors just seem a better bet than plain, shield or bow scouts.

The scouts aren't as good at defending, fighting or shooting. However they have the equivalent of a free drummer and pathfinder.

So...
Is it worth taking them as common formations over the two legendary formations (which seem quite good)?
What do scouts with bows have over crossbow warriors?
Does pathfinder make scouts worth taking?

I'm just getting into this game, could easily be missing the subtleties.

Nu Fenix
23-06-2009, 20:46
Whilst I don't play Isengard, to me the usefulness of Scouts is down to how you play the game.

If you just play line up and fight [Shieldwalls and Field of Swords], then they may not seem that useful compared to normal Uruk-Hai.
However, if you play either High Ground or Seize the Prize objectives, or Maelstrom of Battle deployment, then I see them coming into their own.
And finally, how much terrain will you be playing with? The closer it looks to a pool table, the less useful they will be, whilst the closer it becomes to Mirkwood, the more useful they will be.

The two Legendary Formations based on Scouts do look quite good, although also expensive in terms of what you get. Either an increased charge range and bonus but kill your own men to pass a failed Terror test, or extra damage in combat if you win and Pathfinder Master instead of Woodland.

Overall, it is down to getting in a few games and seeing how they play for you, but also what your opponents use, will dictate how useful you find Scouts.

revolting
28-06-2009, 00:09
Clearly the more woods on the table, the better the scouts are going to perform. Though warriors and pikes are still better if you're just occupying defensible terrain.

The objectives and deployment wont matter as pikes and warriors are just as fast with a drummer.

Leaning towards Ugluk's Raiders with furious charge to get the jump on cav.

warg99
13-11-2009, 21:33
Been playing 1500 pt Isengard Army with the following tournament restrictions: no more than 3 x epic heroes or legendary formations. And of course, Rare formations can't exceed common formations and no more than 25% of army can be allies
So, here's my 1500 pt army list: Actual totals are 1495pts
1. Saruman (240 pts)...epic hero
2. Lurtz (175pts)...epic hero
3. Assault Ballista (75pts)...rare formation
4. Troll (100pts)...rare formation
5. 5 x companies of Uruk Hai warband w/ Saruman (175 pts)...common formation
6. 5 x companies of Uruk Hai phalanx w/ Lurtz (175 pts)...common formation
7. 2 x companies Vrashku's Talons (165 pts)...legendary formation
8. 4 x Warg Riders w/ Bows (mordor ally) (125 pts)...common formation
9. War Mumak (ally) (250 pts)...rare formation
10. Drummer for uruk hai warband (15 pts)
***strategy is the get across the board and charge the enemy...you can't wait around with Isengard because the enemy will pick you apart long range with spells and bows (mordor and elves). I'm still having issues making the best use of my ballista because of line of sight issues...our tournaments usually have a lot of obstructions, limiting my line of sight to the enemy.

What do you think of the army?

Steam_Giant
07-01-2010, 12:03
While pondering weather to bother painting my Uruk Sappers or not, I came up with this Juicy tactic.

Force includes: 1 unit of Sappers and Saruman

Setup: Hope/Give your opponent 1st turn and 1st setup.

Deployment: (Warning: Anything other than shieldwall will need more thought) Place Sappers as far into the board as possible, opposite some nice expensive enemy blocks. Place Saruman within 24"

1st turn Move: Your opponent will probabley spot what is coming and try to move away, hopefully you will still have a target.

Use Sarumans overlord ability to HMove the Sappers 18" towards the enemy, and keep a distance of 12" from your own troops. Either wait to be killed, choose to explode, or make another move to get closer.

Saruman is also touched by destiny, so the might point needed can be used for free.

Its 30pts that could ruin your opponants day, but does mean you have to take Saruman into the game, so its recommended for games sizes at 1500+

Sedge
07-01-2010, 13:30
A very good tactic. I have had it used against me as well. I think that Touched by Destiny is 'an epic action for free per turn' so it will cost some valuable might to work.

When does the sapper actually explode? If its in anythinother than the movement phase then there could be counters to it. If its at the end of the movement then....BOOOM:)

Steam_Giant
07-01-2010, 13:41
A very good tactic. I have had it used against me as well. I think that Touched by Destiny is 'an epic action for free per turn' so it will cost some valuable might to work.

Your quite right, I confused my E and H actions.

The sappers can explode at the begining of their move phase (if passing a C test). Even still, its 30pts plus 1 might that could blow a big hole in your enemies defence. Il be testing it next game.

Sedge
07-01-2010, 14:57
Some good options to counter would be Wilderness spell Call winds to drive back or just hope to win Priority and move away. Perhaps pin with immobilise spell or the like. Then shoot.

Either way they are very useful.

Xelee
07-01-2010, 20:45
If I were playing Isengard, I would be loading up on Crossbow with captains as the basic troops, perhaps Uruks with Shields to the front and a unit Feral Orks with Lurtz as a hitter (he slays Cav) and/or Dunlendings as an ambusher into the enemy backline.

While pikes look the most 'Isengardy', I really think Uruks with Shields are better in a wider range of situations. However, I'd prefer to cut down the enemy battle line with heroic shooting Crossbow before hammer units hit it from both sides :)

Isengard may lack for heroes, but Thrydan Wolsbane is a bargain and Lurtz will probably pay your points back in a hammer unit.

Pyroyeti
06-02-2010, 08:40
1000 points

Lurtz
Vrashku - 3 companies
Uruk pikes w/ captain, banner - 5 companies
Uruk sheilds w/ captain, banner - 5 companies
Sappers
Assault Ballista

No magic, but plenty of might to go around. I know it can be improved though... Any thoughts? Did well in a 3v3 good vs evil 3000 point match.

Steam_Giant
06-02-2010, 14:37
Hey Pyroyeti, thats a pretty good list.

If i where to make changes i would definatley drop the banner on the pikes, they should be receiving charges (preferably Cav charges :)) Also 5 is quite big, are you facing alot of cavalry ? I think your Uruk-hai HW&S block is pretty big aswell, the points you have invested in these units could give you an advantage in another phase of the game ?

Personally i find the assualt ballista a let down on infantry and cav, but works wonders on monsters !! Do you face a lot of those ? Those pesky dwarf ballistas make pincushions out of my troll.

Vrashku and the three companies is definatley an optimun choice, although perhaps a little overkill for this point range ? Id think about dropping these to 2 companies and taking a captain.

Another shooting option is scouts with bows, or Dunlendings with bows which are cheaper but take up rare slots.

Think how cheap 3 companies of warg riders would be. (the'd add some punch to your flanks)

Finally you could splash out on a wizard, maybe Kardush would be fluffy or a ringwraith powerhouse !

Whatever you do drop that banner on the pikemen, and spread your points out a little or you could find yourself out manoeuvred and in trouble.

Good Luck & Have Fun