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View Full Version : Space Marine Codexes: BA, DA, SW and BT. What about Chaos Chapters?



Slazton
04-05-2005, 10:28
This is kind of a rant, but also a good question to run by people here.

Now if Space Marines get FIVE codexes, then how come Chaos gets one? Or why does Imperial Guard only have one Codex, surely Vahellens(sp?) need their own codex, I mean they are a very celebrated regiment (side note: No this is not a plea for this codex, more of a sarcastic retort)!

Personally I think the Marine Codexes could be put to sleep with a large tranquilzer gun. If GW want people to get into the other alien races, they need to update the codexes, and not the Tau, but Eldar, Orks and especially Dark Eldar.

So back to my point: If Marines get five codexes, then Imperial Guard should have three, Chaos should have all Nine chapters represented in a codex, sure it will be alot of cut and pasting, but heck what else does GW do to make money?

Do Space Marines really need five codexes? I mean as a side project after major revision was completed, sure I would not mind, but not with Gorkamorka trukks on the field or Guardians with a shooting complex. Really five? Couldn't they just cram them into one codex like they did with Chaos????????

So if Marines get five codexes, then I want four more Chaos ones: One for every Big Bad Chaos God. Slaanesh, then Khorne, then Tzeentch and heck Nurgle could be done last (he is the decaying one ;)). The other codex representing Undivided. Then I would be happy.

Of course that wont happen (or so I hope), but nor should Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves, just use the dang trait system to make the Chapters, or use a Chapter Approved document not a brand new waste of time codex! Eldar, Dark Eldar and Orks are dying slowly, as if they never existed, as is represented at clubs. Heck I have never fought against Eldar in my store club, is that saying something?

Note: Mods, if this is the wrong place to place this thread, I apologise now :)

charlie_c67
04-05-2005, 10:38
Chaos Won't be getting any sort of codex anytime soon as they were one of the last to be done. The dev team has said they don't want a re-run of it however, meaning they don't want all the chapters together, as it caused a lot of stress! So, IMHO, I'd read this as a sign that there'll be more than one chaos dex when they're reached.

IG don't need more than one dex cos the regiments more or less fight in exactly the same way. The doctrines more than cover any idosyncracies (sp?) between regiments. Even catachans/jungle fighters can be covered.

As to whether they need 5, obviously the bean counters think they do. The 4 extra chapters can't really be done under the trait system because each of them has something that pushes them beyond the "circle", especially the SW's and BT's

Finally, the Eldar, DE and Orks are NOT dying, nor are they being ignored. The dexes are being worked on and if people aren't using the armies then perhaps you need to educate them in the advantages of those races, and yes they're are plenty, or even start an army of those races yourself.

Odin
04-05-2005, 10:50
Well, where do I start? OK, reasons to do things the way they are:

1) Keeping customers happy - we've had separate codexes for DA, BA & SW since 2nd edition. Getting rid of them would alienate a lot of players.

2) Imperial Guard armies all choose from the same basic troop types, so the current system easily represents the variety available. Extra Codexes would just be unnecessary duplication.

3) Chaos Armies can either be dedicated to a specific God, or to Undivided, or have troopes from several different Gods. With that much flexibility, you either need to have everything in one book, or spread it across several books and expect some players to have to buy them all to make their army. You can mix Berzerkers with Plague Marines, so they need to be in the same Codex. You can't mix Ravenwing and Death Company (unless your opponent is very understanding :D )

4) There's some pretty unique units in DAs, BAs and SWs which they would need to shoe-horn into the Codex. Valhallans don't have unique units like Blood Claws or Death Company.

5) Let's be honest - Space Marines make up a large proportion of GW's income from 40K. A new marine Codex every year keeps the money coming in.

6) I agree with you on Black Templars though.

Slazton
04-05-2005, 11:05
I would like to note, the Codex ideas for Imperial Guard were random, but to me this is what the other four marine codexes feel to me, a waste of time. I know they have been around since 2nd Edition ;), but do they need to be down now?

What I was trying to say is that the Marine codexes could be pushed back until the other codexes are completed.

Charlie: Trust me if I had money I would not even touch Orks or Eldar as I dislike their codexes. I sold off my Eldar after second edition for good reasons, I felt betrayed by GW, so I went Chaos :p.

As for the hint of the Chaos Codexes when it comes to their turn (hopefully a good few years), well I hope they'll be worth it.

Jedi152
04-05-2005, 11:06
Put simply, marines are GW's biggest thing (by miles). 50% of their sales are space marines alone. Its the army that pretty much every new starter wants to collect. So by making them the best and most numerous, they keep sales high.

Bear in mind GW doesn't care about fairness, or balanced armies - it just cares about getting $$$ out of new starters.

So they are guaranteed to get the most studio/development time - by keeping the SM releases coming, GW are making more and more sales than if they just had a set of generic rules and plastic figures. I would pretty much bet on them never finishing the SM line, just keeping the new chapters coming until they run out, then start over.

charlie_c67
04-05-2005, 11:29
I would like to note, the Codex ideas for Imperial Guard were random, but to me this is what the other four marine codexes feel to me, a waste of time. I know they have been around since 2nd Edition ;), but do they need to be down now?
Yes! They're being done now as they're effective filler codexes whilst the ones that need more work are tackled effectively.


What I was trying to say is that the Marine codexes could be pushed back until the other codexes are completed.
Leaving wall to wall marines/imperial? That would go down worse than the WS


Charlie: Trust me if I had money I would not even touch Orks or Eldar as I dislike their codexes. I sold off my Eldar after second edition for good reasons, I felt betrayed by GW, so I went Chaos :p.
Each to their own. Several people make both list work quite effectively. However, it vets are just seen to whine about the way their armies been nerfed and abandoning it then what sort of example does that set?


As for the hint of the Chaos Codexes when it comes to their turn (hopefully a good few years), well I hope they'll be worth it.
Well, the indications so far, from those that know, are that the 4th ed dexes are looking a lot better balanced and better thought out than the rushed efforts of 3rd ed.

@jedi: Sorry I have to contest that GW doesn't care about fairness only money. The bean counters and the shareholders yes/maybe, the dev teams and the majority of the staff no. They're almost all modellers and gamers like us and do care about the public. After all most of them will have started out as gamers themselves. Don't tar them all with the same brush.

EVIL INC
04-05-2005, 22:39
Generally, as has already been said, marines are G.W.s bread and butter. They have to give the marine players the extras to keep them in and ahead of the game.
That being said, I would much rather have a rather large fancy hardbound book for marines and chaos. Each with all of the main usable chapters/legions ect along with the rules and background for them. That way, its much nicer. They would be more expensive in one go, but you wouldnt have to worry about a dozen different books for each race/army.
Eldar could have a book fully as nice as the marines and chaos just as the orks could.
Other races such as tau could be combined in a large Xenos hardback, all the inquisitor armies could be combined into a nice hardback and the imperial gaurd could have thier own smaller one.
Many of us old timers from Rogue trader days (not all of us I'm sure though), miss the days of the "nice" fluffy hardbacks for thier armies and would be willing to pay for them.
Of course, I know that will never happen in the "modern quick fix-patch-slop together era".

mattjgilbert
04-05-2005, 22:42
mmmmm hardback books. Damn it! You've made me want to go and dig out my Realm of Chaos books for another read...

Something along the lines of these original classic books for 4th Ed would be uber cool :cool:

EVIL INC
04-05-2005, 22:49
Yes, makes you wonder why the old harbacks are so expensive even though they are only good for reading material and out of date material at that. (Unless your like me and have the conversion book to use it in D&D :cool: )
The simple reason is, quality. They arent slapped together junk phamphlets, they are quality books. People will buy them even if they dont play the game. Some players might complain, but they would still reach into thier pockets and fork over the cash just as fast as before and then afterward, be glad they did.
Thats what they need to do, stop worrying about the piddly stuff and go back to making quality gaming products to match thier quality models. With all thier rush to keep ahead of the other companies, they are losing sight of what put them ahead in the first place.
rant rant rant.

mattjgilbert
04-05-2005, 23:07
Exactly. It's the investment in all that original work of quality which has got them where they are today in terms of scope, concepts, themes and imagery. Another round of the same please GW and we will all be drooling for the next 15 years...

thanoson
05-05-2005, 00:25
Warghh, the Orks and the Realms books were great. Would have never known about the Starchild had it not been for Realms. Where's my Sensai and Dark Sensai? Arggghhhhh!!!!!!

charlie_c67
05-05-2005, 10:45
Thats partly cos it was written by gamers for gamers without shareholders and beancounters breathing down their neck...

Lion El Jason
05-05-2005, 12:06
I swapped both realms of chaos books for an original bloodthirster (The one about the size of an ogre...) And I bought a Chapter Aproved: Book of the astronomican (The RT one) for 5.

Who says they're expensive!!?

charlie_c67
05-05-2005, 12:09
Have you looked at the prices they go for on ebay? Extortionate. And we accuse GW of having high prices!