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eyeolas
09-04-2009, 13:08
A prety simple question, how do OnGs take out a treeman? I don't usually like to specialise, but after hovering over the book I still havn't come up with many solutions that will fairly definatley work

A few options I'v seen:

The warboss runs up to it and hopes to kill it in 1 with some uber detructive item of death (eg the slashin sword). Generally with 6 wounds and T6, this one doesn't work, even with wyvern based help (I'v run the maths and it isn't too promising, especially since he'd just biff me back, killing my prety expensive general

The suicide goblin, it might work if on chariot, but overcoming terror may be an issue, and getting the 6 wounds is prety steep hoping (d6+1 str 5 hits won't do much when wonding on 5s and leaving a 5+ save, the one hit wunda might get a couple depending on how the to hit rolls go, and the bauble, maybe one more...)

black orcs. Maybe, but its a long shot. as soon as I'm not on the charge I can expect to not get many attacks per turn in, and they're really expensive, and liable to flee quite often. Grimgor is an option, but I'm not too keep on special characters, and wood elves always have their way of avoiding and shooting hefty units like this

Spear chukkas, lots of 'em, but overall I'd be on 4s to hit and wound, so even if I got 4, I'd only be loking at 2 wounds a turn, which isn't that great for 150 points (and if it doesn't work, such as fast cavalry getting them early, then its a prety badly spent 150 points)

Bait and ignore just won't work. anything I use to bait will eaither fail terror, fail animosity, or get root attacked prety quick, and it'd be throwing away 65 points at a time

Tarpit, possibly with snotlings, but he'd run through them and eventually flee them (especially since my warboss wouldn't want to stay inside the 12" to give them the leadership they need). The tarpit would also be a hefty toll on points, as snotlings aint cheep nowadays, and will have some issues

Has anyone ever met this challenge before, or do you have some ultra monster killer supreme written up for just such an occasion?

Spirit
09-04-2009, 13:13
Spear chuckas do d3 wounds dont they?

2 wounds a turn would be an average of about 4. Seems good enough to me.

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 13:15
sorry, i meant 2 wounds including the d3 (4 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound for an average of two)

Urgat
09-04-2009, 13:20
Well, i've never faced one, but I suppose i'd deal with it as usual, assuming they're not immune to poison; there's my usual anti large target thing: the big 30 strong unit of gob archers with spider banner. Treeman is a large target so they all get to shoot. 30 poisoned shots should take care of the thing. And get fanatics in there too: they won't reach it if you're lucky (yes, you've read right, they won't reach, if you're lucky), so it won't charge through them on the next turn if it does survive the first salvo, giving you a second opportunity. If it does, well, it'll take the fanatics and the countercharge shots.

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 13:24
Its got a 3+ save.

with 30 shots, you poison with 6, and 2 get through (we'll assume the other hits don't do anything with 6s to wound and the 3+ save)

It's not too bad, but a bit hopefull, especially for 200+ points with a character and my bsb taken. The one advantage is possibly stand and shoot, but with ld 6-7, its again somewhat hopefull that they'll stay there

Oh, and I forgot about the 5+ ward save, so even bolt throwers might get screwed a bit if he rolls well

Urgat
09-04-2009, 13:41
If you're looking for other options, I can't help you. No O&G character can consistently take down a treeman. No troops can either. Giants will be smashed to bits, you'll need tremendous chance with charriots (and at least two of these), and trolls are too slow and unweldly to be able to tie it down. The only option I could see work is a squadron of fighty characters in charriots, but that's a lot for just one treeman, and then good luck reaching the rest of the army in the woods.
There's not many options in the O&G list to deal with the treeman: you kill it with magic, you kill it by ramming strong things into it (good luck), or you kill it by shooting at it.

I'll take the shooting any day, that unit of mine has owned about all the large targets it has ever targeted.
Ld can be taken care of by the general if he's nearby. At least two rounds of shooting should be enough. And no matter what, that treeman will cost more than the gobs, he won't even expect it, he'll shoot at something else. You can combine with spearchukkas, too. Even if you don't manage to kill it, it'll be weakened as hell, unless you've got the worst luck. It'll be much easier to manage w/o the full 6+ wounds.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 13:45
Spear chukka would be your best bet, but if he's hiding int he trees making trouble then just redirect him with fast cav.

The Waaagh Cleava would do ok too ;)

Spirit
09-04-2009, 13:47
Hmm, 30 bows, 5+ to hit usually id imagine, including long range and moving but large target, so probably 5 wounds.

then if it wants to stop them it5 has to go through the same again with stand and shoot.

Id say your best bet is to take as many wounds off it as possible then get a big unit into it. Its only got 5 attacks (6?) so chances are it wont beat a fully ranked unit, and it isnt gonna pass that ld9 stubborn every time.

Urgat
09-04-2009, 13:54
Spear chukka would be your best bet, but if he's hiding int he trees making trouble then just redirect him with fast cav.

It's kind of hard to redirect a M5 monster that doesn't wheel, has terror and a missile weapon. Poor wolves, I know they're awesome, but you're asking too much of them there :p

rtunian
09-04-2009, 13:54
what about pair of pump wagons? pretty cheap, no terror test, and (possibly) a big bag of impact hit dice on the charge. combine with shooting during their approach for maximum effect

craskie666
09-04-2009, 13:55
Grimgor!!!!!!!!!!

Makaber
09-04-2009, 13:59
Any army will be hard pressed to consistently take down Treemen. Softening it up with Spear Chukkas (and maybe a Doom Diver?) to keep it humble, and then hopefully bring it down with regiments is pretty much your best bet. Focus on taking out the Battle Standard Bearer if he has one, it makes the Treeman a lot more manageable.

A Giant can work, because its attacks stand a good chance of either halting or killing the Treeman, and the Treeman lacks the attacks to bring down the Giant quickly so with a little luck you'll get a couple of rounds in. However, I wouldn't count on a Giant, because chances are it'll be shot down by the rest of the Wood Elf army, or at least be severely damaged by the time it reaches combat.

sergio
09-04-2009, 14:12
treemen cant take out big blocks of troops on their own

it only has 5 attacks, and you get an automatic +5 CR (3 ranks + banner + outnumber), and automatically win with a musician (this is assuming he doesnt gang up with dryads/war dancers/wild riders or something). and who cares if you lose about 3 goblins a turn in combat. yeah hes stubborn, but you'll either A) make him take enough break tests to get unlucky and fail and try to run him down, or B) you tie up a 285 hammer unit with about 100pts in goblins

just make sure your unit is big enough to not lose your full static CR, and that you intercept any other unit that tries to help the treeman out

Braad
09-04-2009, 14:15
Is it comparable to a stegadon?

My black orc warboss had no troubles at all at slashing down both a carnosaur and a stegadon in two consecutive turns using the Battleaxe of the Last WAAAGH, while running around in a unit of 25 boyz. That's 7 attack's at S8 from him alone.

Combine this with Auto-WAAAGH due to him bein general, and you charge 11.5" on average, when you get to the treeman. Get Big 'Uns or put him in a big unit of black orcs, and Combine with the WAAAGH banner to increase certainty of charge, or Banner of Butchery to give him an extra attack.

Maybe this works?

Do note that you need to get the charge, because he is not well defended, with a max AS of 4+ (shield + heavy armour).

The Screamin' Sword might be an alternative, but I only managed once to equal the Battleaxe in strength and attacks, so don't count too much on that.
On the other, it allows for a bit of extra defence or something else.

sroblin
09-04-2009, 14:19
Giants will be smashed to bits

Last time I was playing Wood Elves against Orcs and Goblins, I found exactly the opposite to be true. I Giant almost can't help but win versus a Treeman, unless it gets a very lucky charge (and the giant is faster...)

Versus big things: 1 Yell and Bawl is an auto-win for the giant which permits no return attack, 2-4 inflict 2d6 auto-wounds with no save unless the treeman passes an initiative test (good luck with that!), 5-6 inflicts an auto-wound with no save and prevents the treeman from fighting back.

No matter what happens, the treeman is almost certainly screwed.

Chaos Undecided
09-04-2009, 14:24
If your using a warboss to take down the Treeman then the Collar of Zorga is a steal for its price to help him avoid getting smooshed, however if its a treeman ancient I'm not so sure it'd work given the recent Chaos FAQs comments on Monstrous Characters.

jax40kplyr1
09-04-2009, 14:31
Also keep in mind the ever popular surfing treeman - hiding in that nice patch of woods so you can't see him while he tree-sings right up to your lines and terror/strangleroots/march blocks everything he can, all the while shooting the crap out of you. Haven't played goblins in a while but I believe the fanatics would pop out and be killed if they ran into the terrain (which he is hiding in).
Magic may end up being your best bet, as hitting him with the Gork spells and all - d6 Str 6 anywhere on the board may be effective.

dsw1
09-04-2009, 14:31
This is simple...

200+ night goblins with poisoned bows.

You'd be bound to get enough poison to get through and since he is a large target, every rank gets to shoot. Not only this but how immense would it make your army look eh?

Think about it ;)

MalusCalibur
09-04-2009, 14:45
treemen cant take out big blocks of troops on their own

it only has 5 attacks, and you get an automatic +5 CR (3 ranks + banner + outnumber), and automatically win with a musician (this is assuming he doesnt gang up with dryads/war dancers/wild riders or something). and who cares if you lose about 3 goblins a turn in combat. yeah hes stubborn, but you'll either A) make him take enough break tests to get unlucky and fail and try to run him down, or B) you tie up a 285 hammer unit with about 100pts in goblins

just make sure your unit is big enough to not lose your full static CR, and that you intercept any other unit that tries to help the treeman out

Actually, that isn't true. The Treeman can happily throw Strangelroots into the combat, which against Goblins is going to be brutal. Combined with the fact that he will kill them very easily with those 5 Attacks, whereas the Goblins will not be able to hurt him back (realistically, with his T6, 3+ save, and 5+ aura), and that static CR will be gone before you know it. Not to mention the Terror and Stubborn.
Dwarf Ironbreakers fail against a Treeman-Goblins (or indeed any O+G infantry) don't have a chance in hell.

As for actually killing the thing, the Giant is the only way you've got. Just make sure he (or they, if you take 2) doesn't get shot dead before he can get the charge.


MalusCalibur

bobtasco
09-04-2009, 14:53
You can't strangleroot into combat.

And treeman sure as hell do fail to large groups. 5 attacks yes. needing 3+ to hit means on averge 3 or 4 hit. Maybe 3 of those will wound. 3 wounds. Compare that to 6 combat res and you will be failing everytime. Yes, its stubborn but an 8 on 2 dice is a litte better than a 50% chance. So in 3 rounds of combat the treeman is overrun.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 14:57
It's kind of hard to redirect a M5 monster that doesn't wheel, has terror and a missile weapon. Poor wolves, I know they're awesome, but you're asking too much of them there :p

Well your just blocking them right. Being marched blocked he isn't going to get past you with 5 inches and anything else he does is going to waste a turn.

Sure he can side step and root the wolves, but do this twice and by then the rest of your army is all over his and it's too late for him.

Urgat
09-04-2009, 15:26
Realisticaly, he just has to walk within terror range and watch them run.

Spirit
09-04-2009, 15:27
Thats what the black orc warboss is for no?

Keller
09-04-2009, 15:45
I would normally suggest Spear Chuckas or Rock Lobbers, but I know how tricky they are to kill a Treeman with. My WE playing friends' Treemen regularly catch cannonballs and shrug them off with their 5+ ward. Makes my Imperials very sad.

How about a unit of Trolls? They're S5, can vomit to ignore it's armor save (and auto-hit IFRC) and cause Fear, so Terror isn't as much of a problem with them. If you make them River Trolls, the Treeman may have a bit harder time hitting, too. Oh, and of course the Trolls regenerate, making them atleast a bit survivable against the high S attacks.

Otherwise, how about an Orc Boss / Big Boss with a tooled up weapons. The Battle Axe of the Last Waaaaaaagh always impressed me, on paper anyway.

sroblin
09-04-2009, 16:02
Yes, its stubborn but an 8 on 2 dice is a litte better than a 50% chance. So in 3 rounds of combat the treeman is overrun.

That's more like a 72% chance each round. But that still makes it about 3 rounds of combat on average for it to break. (Don't forget the casualties it inflicts can also take away ranks bonuses and stuff...)

I think the tying a treeman with a block is OK if you don't mind losing the use of the block for much of the battle, but tieing down blocks is also very handy to Wood Elves for setting up flank charges, so I would be careful. I still think are ranged attacks are good versus them, but really if you do have a giant handy they win almost hands down in a clash of titans.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 16:03
Realisticaly, he just has to walk within terror range and watch them run.

Terror... roots... whatever. The main thing is that he isn't making a b-line for the center of your army.

selone
09-04-2009, 16:25
If it's a treeman ancient its LD9, LD8 for the rare choic though. I think the best advice was to shoot at it where possible and then hope the WE player is foolish enough to commit against a fully ranked up unit, hold it then bring a choppy char to the fray.

bobtasco
09-04-2009, 16:38
That's more like a 72% chance each round. But that still makes it about 3 rounds of combat on average for it to break. (Don't forget the casualties it inflicts can also take away ranks bonuses and stuff...)

I think the tying a treeman with a block is OK if you don't mind losing the use of the block for much of the battle, but tieing down blocks is also very handy to Wood Elves for setting up flank charges, so I would be careful. I still think are ranged attacks are good versus them, but really if you do have a giant handy they win almost hands down in a clash of titans.

EVEN BETTER! If a 100 point block of gobbos gets to tie up a treeman and distract a unit of wild riders its even better than planned. Your black orcs will be thanking then as they tear through everything else that isn't charging the gobbos. You got two enemy units who pretty much are claiming table quarters by turn 4. You could reform to face the WR as they charge so you get two ranks of deep of spears attacking t3 wildriders. They are wasting a s5 hit on puny gobbos and 2 ranks hit back. with a treeman alone killing 3 gobbos a turn, then they are fine as they are.

No one is arguing that this is better than a giant, but I think it can get the job done on the cheap.

Urgat
09-04-2009, 18:04
Thats what the black orc warboss is for no?

What, for running after your redirecting fast cav?


How about a unit of Trolls? They're S5, can vomit to ignore it's armor save (and auto-hit IFRC) and cause Fear, so Terror isn't as much of a problem with them. If you make them River Trolls, the Treeman may have a bit harder time hitting, too. Oh, and of course the Trolls regenerate, making them atleast a bit survivable against the high S attacks.

Thought about it, but they're too slow, they have to wheel and stuff, the treeman could easily avoid them sadly.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 18:21
What, for running after your redirecting fast cav?

Certainly you understand what I'm saying Urgat.

Best option is to blast the treeman with spearchukkas, but if it holding to the trees (waiting to counter and terror bomb) then block it with fast cav.

Who cares if they run, who even cares if they die, the main thing is that you don't have a treemen going crazy on your line.

AramilSairSianontel
09-04-2009, 18:53
'scuse but no one considered rock lobba and a doom diver? they both do d6 wounds no armour saves...i can't think of anything better.
With my O&G and a list of a lobba a doom diver and 2 chuckas i broke 2 empire steam tanks only in shooting...how much harder can a treeman be? if you're a little lucky i think greenskins have a decent shooting face

selone
09-04-2009, 20:28
A doomdiver maybe, a rock lobba would be a very bad idea, you'd need a direct hit on a perfect guess realistically to harm it.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 20:30
A doomdiver maybe, a rock lobba would be a very bad idea, you'd need a direct hit on a perfect guess realistically to harm it.

Or a bad guess and a good scatter :p

Even the doom diver has to hit, random amount of hits, have to wound, and then there is the ward for each one. Nothing like a sure thing cannon.

I'd rather have a pair of spear chukkas for cheaper and hope your D3 wounds pays off.

Storak
09-04-2009, 21:12
Or a bad guess and a good scatter :p

Even the doom diver has to hit, random amount of hits, have to wound, and then there is the ward for each one. Nothing like a sure thing cannon.

I'd rather have a pair of spear chukkas for cheaper and hope your D3 wounds pays off.

i agree. the doomdiver is pretty bad, S5 against T6 and the ward makes less than 1 wound per hit.

4+ chukkas are a good start.

if your opponent knows what he is doing (using cover, multi charge, ..), you are in some trouble...

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 21:48
Well I just got back from playing one, and shock horror it didn't die. I shot both doom divers at it with the rock lobber for two turns and got it down to 3 wounds, then was unlucky to not get a wound with my black orc big boss with great weapon, but apart from that I found everything else was tied up with the whole 'not getting overrun by wood elves' issue, and the treeman helped in squishing my unit of 30 gobos with bobbbsb, and fled a second unit of 30 goblins with terror, who where quickly run down by the alter noble.

Guys, this is a sensible wood elf player, he only ever charges his treeman in when it gets support (this time in the form of wild riders, which where easily enough to get me to lose combat and flee off, but usually in the form of an alter noble), so no, he won't be charging a fully ranked unit of orcs or goblin with it alone :P

I might give the whole 200 (well, maybe only 100) strong unit of poisoned archers idea a go (for the hell of it really, and when allied with high elves we'll be trying curse of arrow attraction for even more fun :P). A Black orc will be joining the unit just incase they try and squable (d6 str 5 hits, meh), but I do expect A LOT of return fire, and all in all it'd probably be a short lived unit as soon as fast cavalry get into its side

Here's some maths:

6 wounds, means 9 after ward save, 27 with save, means 162 shots are needed to get enough poisons. Hmm, I don't like those odds.

If we get curse of arrow attraction, and I assume I hit on 5s (long range and moved, + large target), then the numbers needed for 1 turn kill are nearish 100s (which yields 6.3wounds with poison alone). I recon it's posible... (although I'd prefer to try it with TKs :P)

selone
09-04-2009, 21:57
Or a bad guess and a good scatter :p

Even the doom diver has to hit, random amount of hits, have to wound, and then there is the ward for each one. Nothing like a sure thing cannon.

I'd rather have a pair of spear chukkas for cheaper and hope your D3 wounds pays off.

Taking a doomdiver does not preclude taking spearchukka's ;)

Malorian
09-04-2009, 21:58
True, but if I had both against wood elves that doom diver would be busy taking care of annoying skirmishers (possibly in trees).

Spirit
09-04-2009, 21:59
What, for running after your redirecting fast cav?




For stopping the terror, was what i was referring to.

Malorian, how does a doom diver work against skirmishers? Must it hit the units "area" of models, or an actual model? I know it gets to move d3 wherever you choose, just curious.

selone
09-04-2009, 22:04
Malorian- I hope you wouldn't be shooting at stuff in trees you couldn't see ;)

Spirit- It has to hit an actual model. Bearing in mind you can direct it in any direction after rolling though it's pretty easy to hit something.

eyeolas
09-04-2009, 22:15
Ya, in fact its easier to hit skirmishers as they can only ever be 1" apart (which is the minimum redirect), and hecne the unit covers more area so scatter is less of an issue

Spirit
09-04-2009, 22:22
Cool, nice to know thanks.

Whitesox
10-04-2009, 08:36
two giants

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
10-04-2009, 09:07
Well I once took out a treeman with 5 wolfriders in the flank, I did a wound and he none and he failed his break test:p, but I bet this will happen not every day.

The best option to take out a treeman is chukka's, 4 of them are enough( at least for me). Also I think a giant has a decent chance on taking out a treeman especially if you roll thump with club.

Greetz
G

selone
10-04-2009, 11:28
Don't Welves pincushion giants?

eyeolas
10-04-2009, 11:38
Ya, they do (I still mourn the loss of my warboss on wyvern, 1st turn killing blow from way watchers, and the wyvern hail of doomed in short order with the rest of the fire scraping the last few wounds. and he has a 4+ save and flying!)

Large targets, not the greatest idea vs WEs

Whitesox
10-04-2009, 20:49
giants kill treemen, wood elf archers kill giants, big units of goblin spider riders kill wood elf archers, treemen kill big units of goblin spider riders...

very much rock paper scissors, plenty of things in the OnG list can kill a treeman, but the question is will your opponent let you get to it. also is the treeman an ancient with the annoyance of nettles? if so it gets so much harder

eyeolas
10-04-2009, 21:07
No, its just a rare choice one with no upgrades (thank god)

sir_shvantselot
12-04-2009, 17:06
If you're looking for other options, I can't help you. No O&G character can consistently take down a treeman. No troops can either. Giants will be smashed to bits, you'll need tremendous chance with charriots (and at least two of these), and trolls are too slow and unweldly to be able to tie it down.

I disagree. I play O&G and when I played wood elves, my giant took a couple of wounds from shooting in turn one, charged treeman in turn two, rolled 2D6 strength 6 hits or whatever, and just killed it.

PeG
12-04-2009, 19:23
regular treeman
Shoot it or kill it with geared up hero/lord (after shooting it), CR also works but only if the WE player messed up somewhere. If played properly a treeman does not break from combat (stubborn within range of BSB gives rerollable LD 8-9). A giant may or may not work but so far I havent seen a giant make it to close combat against WE. Usually glade guards will finish them off long before that, maybe if you take two.

Ancient
Killing it with a character in close combat is usually not an option. He will challenge and he will have annoyance of nettlings making you hit only on 6s.

Urgat
12-04-2009, 19:37
I disagree. I play O&G and when I played wood elves, my giant took a couple of wounds from shooting in turn one, charged treeman in turn two, rolled 2D6 strength 6 hits or whatever, and just killed it.

I may be underestimating the giant indeed, but mine has always let me (and himself, as a matter of fact :p) down, so I might be a bit biaised.

selone
12-04-2009, 19:43
I can't see why I'd ever take a giant, t5 non flying large target with what 5 wounds?

xragg
12-04-2009, 20:21
Any decent WE player wont run their treeman alone. They will accompany it with dryads or wardancers to help him break static CR of a goblin unit for example. Pump wagons, spear chuckas, and hoppas are all decent at doing early wounds to a treeman before your better troops or characters can engage it.