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danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 16:20
I put this somewhere else and was ignored/ moved over

so I though I put it down again to make sure people saw it


you know what

easy way of fixing war hammer

only blocks of infantry 20+ big count as core or cavelry 10+ (ogers will have to have some other rule)
units that contain missile weapons or genrate powerdice only count once)

no more than 2 caracters in an unit

all armys must take a BSB, who can only take either a magic banner and mundane armour, or magic equipment and a normal banner (deamons and VC, the same rule applys, you take a magic banner, you can't take powers or deamonic gifts)

no more than 1/2 your hero's may have magic

no multiple rares or special choises (you can get 2 for 1, but thats it)


so you could see 2 bolt throwers and a hydra

no special caracter- Full stop!

stops death star
stops crazy powerdice
stops Gun lines
sorted!

Master Stark
09-04-2009, 16:23
What exactly are you trying to 'fix' with these changes, and how?

Malorian
09-04-2009, 16:25
Seems to restrictive, plus it bans MSU which I think makes for better games than just large blocks.

blackjack
09-04-2009, 16:29
Daemons will thank you mightly as huge horror blocks dominate the magic phase.

danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 16:32
What exactly are you trying to 'fix' with these changes, and how?
well it stops everything
stops most death stars as you can't put all your caracters in a unit
stops crazy amouts of powerdice

even the horror list, you still need either 3 big blocks of something, weather that would be horrors or not!

what am I missing


Seems to restrictive, plus it bans MSU which I think makes for better games than just large blocks.

yes its restictive, but it still alows you some choise
you want to go magic heavy, go a lord level wizzard, and a level 2
you want to go magic medium, go 2 level 2s
you want to go magic light, go 1 scroll caddy

you would expect most armys to bring there battle standard with them (maybe get rid of this rule at under 1500 points?)

your still alowed your moster heavy cav/ big scary mosnster

cuts out most of the nasy over powerd stuff and brings in some otherthings that are never seen as something else is nasyer (e.g. you might see helstorms/helblaster/flagents rather than just stanks)


Daemons will thank you mightly as huge horror blocks dominate the magic phase.

changed it for you
big units of horrors are out, along with big units of any missile units/ long lines of fast cav

blackjack
09-04-2009, 16:35
stops crazy amouts of powerdice


No it does not.


26 horrors = a 3rd level mage = 3 pd (This is a core block)

herald of tz with power vortex = 3 more pd

2 blocks of 26+ horrors with heralds = 12pd +2 free pd = 14pd

A better setup would be one herald with power vortex and the other with master of sorc for 13pd.

Give the two blocks icon of sorc and then they get +1 to cast.

Add in a block of nurgle with herald of nurgle and a few flesh hounds to flank and machine hunt. Condsidering most opponents wont be able to take more thank 6dd and a few scrolls this army will rape them.

danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 16:43
No it does not.


26 horrors = a 3rd level mage = 3 pd (This is a core block)

herald of tz with power vortex = 3 more pd

3 blocks of 26+ horrors with heralds = 20 pd.


A better setup would be one herald with power vortex and the other two with master of sorc for 18pd.

yep, well I saw and changed it
the 26 horror block is now delt with

IcedCrow
09-04-2009, 16:44
I think... like any comp system... that it serves your purposes and what you want out of the game.

Unfortunately there are dozens of ways to enjoy the game. And as such, like any comp system, it will fail as a whole.

danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 16:50
I think... like any comp system... that it serves your purposes and what you want out of the game.

Unfortunately there are dozens of ways to enjoy the game. And as such, like any comp system, it will fail as a whole.

dozens of way to get fun out of the game?

wow well since when was beating people up who had no chance in the world anyfun?

Master Stark
09-04-2009, 16:53
dozens of way to get fun out of the game?

wow well since when was beating people up who had no chance in the world anyfun?

You think a list of prohibitions like this will prevent this?

IcedCrow
09-04-2009, 16:54
Army composition is 75% of the game before you even get to the table. A lot of times you can tell who is going to win before the first die is rolled just by comparing army rosters.

If you are a casual player who does not like to min/max, do not go to a tournament. If you are a power gamer who needs to use powerful units, don't try to play a casual gamer.

There's your problem.

Comp scores are drawn up by someone who doesn't like certain things. So they cripple another player who likes those things to make them play the way they want to.

I used to run tournies and leagues. I used to write comp rules. For years. I've been there. Done that. I know why it's done but you have so many ways to play warhammer, you can't expect people to think that the way you enjoy the game is the one true way to enjoy it.

You can do a search on IcedCrow and find me years ago going at it with power gamers because I thought they were lame. I have since realized I don't like power gaming, but that it's perfectly valid.

If you want perfect fairness, make people play pre-gen lists. Then the game becomes less about the army roster and more about playing the game.

Stuffburger
09-04-2009, 16:55
Death stars are a product of too many unit wide buffs being combined and should be fixed in the individual army lists, not with a ban on characters in units.

"Crazy powerdice" is fine as well, as long as it is costed appropriately. It should significantly detract from your ability at any other phase and is also an armybook fix.

Random terrain and maybe making some of the shootier armies have a mainstay rule of some sort would solve gunlines well enough, but that miht be pushing it. Ever tried a gunline in a heavy terrain board with no hill on your side? You lose most of the time as your fields of fire are severely cut and you can't focus fire.

Multiples of special and rare units are only a bad thing because the units are underpriced for what they do. No one would complain about 2x hydras if they went up in price 50%, or whatever is appropriate. Also an armybook fix.

Are you saying that <20 infantry and <10 cav count as special, or just don't count to filling core reqs?

Cavalry is rarely to never taken in blocks of 10 because it's a waste of points. You want my 5 wolf riders (or whatever) to count as a special choice now?

Infantry blocks of 20 only hurts elite infantry armies even more, while not really touching any of the problem armies (VC, DoC, DE)

Cutting down on magic items is the only thing I can sort of agree with, but if you want a troops heavy game I'd just say play 1,999 or 2,999 points, or maybe ban lords.

I think we all appreciate the intent but these threads pop up at least every week and never seem to be thought through very well. Show us a better write up with detailed intent, examples of what you want to curb, army specific examples and how the game would play afterwards (and how you'd try to break your rules) and you'll get much more positive feedback.

Drongol
09-04-2009, 16:55
I'm having trouble trying to figure out what this fixes that "needs" fixing.
Rather, I see it as yet another needlessly restrictive set of rules that will cause new "power builds" to spring up overnight.

Personally, I don't want my Ogres to have a Battle Standard. Heck, I don't want my Ogres to have a standard, period, as I think it looks rather silly in a bunch of MSU savages. But that's beside the point--I'm honestly not sure what this accomplishes outside of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Drongol

Malorian
09-04-2009, 16:59
Army composition is 75% of the game before you even get to the table. A lot of times you can tell who is going to win before the first die is rolled just by comparing army rosters.

I don't believe this at all. In 40k where the AP system means that certain things beat others then yes, but not in fantasy where most of it depends on how you use it.

Sure there are times when you see bloodthirster deamons against zombie pirates that you know who is going to win, but as long as you have two experieinced players making competitive lists, the lists wouldn't be anywhere near 75% of the determining factor.

In general I think fantasy is:

50% skill
25% list
25% luck

Peril
09-04-2009, 17:00
The real fix is to not play against powergaming jerks. Eventually the problem corrects itself.

Malorian
09-04-2009, 17:01
The real fix is to not play against powergaming jerks. Eventually the problem corrects itself.

Or at least not against jerks ;)

Peril
09-04-2009, 17:08
If you want to stop powergaming AND jerks, you have to go all the way with it. Powergaming is like cancer, or gangrene - sometimes you have to amputate a limb.

selone
09-04-2009, 17:09
Armylist isn't 75 % of warhammer FB at all :)

danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 17:10
Death stars are a product of too many unit wide buffs being combined and should be fixed in the individual army lists, not with a ban on characters in units.
most death stars I've come accros are multiple caracters
"Crazy powerdice" is fine as well, as long as it is costed appropriately. It should significantly detract from your ability at any other phase and is also an armybook fix.
sorry but crazy powerdice should not be fine, some armys o.k. however mass ION/Dance= not good

Random terrain and maybe making some of the shootier armies have a mainstay rule of some sort would solve gunlines well enough, but that miht be pushing it. Ever tried a gunline in a heavy terrain board with no hill on your side? You lose most of the time as your fields of fire are severely cut and you can't focus fire.
thats fine, gun lines are still alloud, you just need to have the blocks with them

Multiples of special and rare units are only a bad thing because the units are underpriced for what they do. No one would complain about 2x hydras if they went up in price 50%, or whatever is appropriate. Also an armybook fix.

nothing I can do here

Are you saying that <20 infantry and <10 cav count as special, or just don't count to filling core reqs?
just don't count towards core reqs, the same way as furys and dogs

Cavalry is rarely to never taken in blocks of 10 because it's a waste of points. You want my 5 wolf riders (or whatever) to count as a special choice now?
no, they just don't count as core, and I'm sure you can have 20+ blocks of ork/goblins

Infantry blocks of 20 only hurts elite infantry armies even more, while not really touching any of the problem armies (VC, DoC, DE)
don't see how, Dwarfs have good core anyway (my dwarf army cosists of 1 unit of warriors and 1 unit on longbeards anyway, adding the extra core is not a problem, and every army has some cheep infantry anyway, spearmen, marauders, dwarf warriors


Cutting down on magic items is the only thing I can sort of agree with, but if you want a troops heavy game I'd just say play 1,999 or 2,999 points, or maybe ban lords.

I think we all appreciate the intent but these threads pop up at least every week and never seem to be thought through very well. Show us a better write up with detailed intent, examples of what you want to curb, army specific examples and how the game would play afterwards (and how you'd try to break your rules) and you'll get much more positive feedback.

all comments in quote

Classical Mushroom
09-04-2009, 17:19
I'm not to keen on the idea TBH as at a couple of my gaming groups we enjoy playing lists which can break other armies in half and as we all do it, it makes for some brutally fun games. :)

There are already rules for armies and if people don't want to play a Cheesy Daemon army then no one is forcing them to play against it. They can ask if they wouldn't mind toning it down a bit as they know it would make a boring game.

On the tournament scene everyone wants to do well and most people want to win i know i do ;) and making a hard hitting list that can cope with what is thrown at it is part of that.

Armies will do brought up in line with others don't worry :)

Zoolander
09-04-2009, 17:22
Army composition is 75% of the game before you even get to the table. A lot of times you can tell who is going to win before the first die is rolled just by comparing army rosters.

If you are a casual player who does not like to min/max, do not go to a tournament. If you are a power gamer who needs to use powerful units, don't try to play a casual gamer.

There's your problem.

Comp scores are drawn up by someone who doesn't like certain things. So they cripple another player who likes those things to make them play the way they want to.

I used to run tournies and leagues. I used to write comp rules. For years. I've been there. Done that. I know why it's done but you have so many ways to play warhammer, you can't expect people to think that the way you enjoy the game is the one true way to enjoy it.

You can do a search on IcedCrow and find me years ago going at it with power gamers because I thought they were lame. I have since realized I don't like power gaming, but that it's perfectly valid.

If you want perfect fairness, make people play pre-gen lists. Then the game becomes less about the army roster and more about playing the game.

QFT. Nicely put, and I have a new respect for power gamers, though I dislike them as well.

As a side note, three friends and I set up our own little campaign rules back in 4th Ed. Basically, each person started with 900 pts, with the following rules:

- No magic items.
- Core had to be 50% of your army list point wise (back in 4th ed. they didn't have composition like they do now. They just had a 25% core rule).
- Only 1 Rare could be taken.
- No special characters.

We each had to play each other person at least once (or more if there was not a clear victor). The top player got to add 100 pts of magic items, powers, or troops, the next player 75, then 50, then 25. Each person also got 250 pts to add to their list for units. Or something strange like that - I don't really recall - it was like 20 years ago. Worked great for a while until we hit the 3k mark and got bored and did something else.

The point is, you can make house rules for you and your friends, such as comp scores, etc. but realize that not everyone is going to want to play by those rules, so be careful not to paint too widely with that brush of yours. What you find broken in the system others may actually enjoy. I can name a lot of things to change in the game, and I've posted some here in the past. But I'm not dumb enough to believe everyone should just agree with me.

TheLionReturns
09-04-2009, 17:31
So if I read it right the only WE builds are Highborn with multiple 20 man Eternal Guard units, or a list with multiple 10 man Glade Rider units. This seems rather harsh. I don't think you'd see WE armies at a tournament with these rules.

I think the system needs some work still.

danny-d-b
09-04-2009, 17:40
So if I read it right the only WE builds are Highborn with multiple 20 man Eternal Guard units, or a list with multiple 10 man Glade Rider units. This seems rather harsh. I don't think you'd see WE armies at a tournament with these rules.

I think the system needs some work still.

aturally all WE builds would be iligal except the 20+ dryad unit
which isnever going to happen

o.k. bad idea

thread closed