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Spirit
09-04-2009, 22:12
Ok, so my cousin and i often play, but he has only recently converted his skaven to a horde army.

It's always had Lot's of models, but now he has well over 200 in 2000 points!

Im at a loss, he hammered me hard last week and I'm not entirely sure what i could have done better.

His army includes, 2 mages, a fellblade lord (always placed vs a stegadon) and a bsb chief. theres 50 plagemonks total, 4 units of slaves, 3 or 4 units of clanrats, some stormvermin and a few other specialised units.

this is the list iv'e just made up, haven't used it yet, but don't want to tool it up to beat him (it's been made to vs all comers, not just skaven)



Slann - +1 power dice per spell, knows a spell lore, enemy wizard withing 24" loses 6's, regeneration, BsB, 4 power stones, bane head.
545

does not go in a unit

Skink priest - Lvl 2, scroll, rod of the storm
150

Engine Of The Gods (for priest)
290

10x Blowpipe skinks
70
10x Blowpipe skinks
70

20xsaurus, spears, musician, standard,
258

20x skinks, std bearer, musician, 2x kroxigor
217

Stegadon,
235

3x Terradons
90

1x salamander
75


Total: 2000
Pd- 9 (usually 12 with the slanns free ones)
4x Power stones, so 12 dice from them (2 dice per turn, not bad!)
one use bound pwr 6

Dd- 6, one mage ignoring 6's (the lvl 4 one!)



Does it even have a chance? When i play him the army is so daunting I'm always tempted to sit and let him come to me, if i venture too far out he just gets into all my flanks, but if i stay too close he just races right at me!

whats the best way to go about beating it?

Classical Mushroom
09-04-2009, 22:26
The Fellblade horde is a tough fight as im sure youv guessed you get held up and Fellblade charges :p

The main weakness of the army is the General as he will only have light protection so you should focus on killing him. Eg Rule of Burning iron or steal soul etc

I would try and push the charge and have your steg try and splat him if that fails try the skinks! :p

Sorry if its a bit feeble im just trying to work it with the list you've got. You could also try an Old Blood with the Blade of realities as iv seen a lot of these lists and he is only LD 7 so that could be a plan :angel:

Urgat
09-04-2009, 22:29
You've got only two real blocks of melee infantry, and you got half your points spent in characters. I don't think you need to look any farther than that, here's the main problems with your list.

Spirit
09-04-2009, 22:30
Lol no need to be sorry im not giving much to work with, Feel free to give me "perfect solutions" aswell. Even though i dont want to change the army i do want to know what will work!

Rule of burning iron is only S3 vs his heavy armour and i dont want to get within 12" of him, but drain life does seem like a good bet, IF i can avoid getting charged!

I do normally use a carnosaur but the problem i forsee here is that he can only kill so much.. Once he gets frenzied i'll be fed slaves all game. It might be worth a go though.

Spirit
09-04-2009, 22:32
You've got only two real blocks of melee infantry, and you got half your points spent in characters. I don't think you need to look any farther than that, here's the main problems with your list.

695 points on characters is hardly excessive (the stegadon is a stegadon in its own right, and i dont intend for it to be sitting there)

So what would you suggest? Losing the second steg for more saurus? I tried temple guard vs him last time and the fell blade ripped too many of them apart. Killed his general after 2 rounds of combat but 7 temple guard dead was nasty.

Classical Mushroom
09-04-2009, 22:38
Lol no need to be sorry im not giving much to work with, Feel free to give me "perfect solutions" aswell. Even though i dont want to change the army i do want to know what will work!

Rule of burning iron is only S3 vs his heavy armour and i dont want to get within 12" of him, but drain life does seem like a good bet, IF i can avoid getting charged!

I do normally use a carnosaur but the problem i forsee here is that he can only kill so much.. Once he gets frenzied i'll be fed slaves all game. It might be worth a go though.

Don't forget he might have a shield so its S4 tho i ran with enchanted shield so it was S5 for me :) oh my poor rat

Doesn't the carnosaur only gain frenzy after it causes a wound? Still not up to date with Lizardmen yet? :p

Spirit
09-04-2009, 22:43
Yea its only frenzy after the first wound, but if i onyl get to pick one good target then slaves it still poses problems. and he uses a talismen of protection, no idea if he has a normal shield though.

Now i think about it metal might be handy, -1 to hit wound and armour would mean he is hitting on a 4+ and only wounding on a 3+. That might cut him down in effectivness quite drastically. But then again most of the other spells will be a bit rubbish as he's got no armoured units or chariots/warmachines

Classical Mushroom
09-04-2009, 22:52
Well i think Lore of metal would be a good bet as you stated he will be at -1 to hit and wound. Also Law of Gold could really be of help here ;) Just get rid of the Fellblade and watch as his rat attacks ping off your stegs :angel:

Shamfrit
09-04-2009, 23:52
His army includes, 2 mages, a fellblade lord (always placed vs a stegadon) and a bsb chief. theres 50 plagemonks total, 4 units of slaves, 3 or 4 units of clanrats, some stormvermin and a few other specialised units.


Having played Skaven for about two years, and played every type of legal list imaginable, I can wholeheartidly say, that this is a tame list, not only in terms of 'horde' but in terms of magic, combat and shooting as well. The important thing to remember is the fragility of individual units, and that Skaven operate a unified 'all for one' modus operandi that is brittle. Seriously, seriously brittle.



Does it even have a chance? When i play him the army is so daunting I'm always tempted to sit and let him come to me, if i venture too far out he just gets into all my flanks, but if i stay too close he just races right at me!

I was planning on a long post but it's late, so I will offer thsi for now:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X
X O X
X O X
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X

This is know as a corkscrew rush.

Deny flank entirely, force your opponents long line to half hold against your focussed push, and half wheel around to brace against your flank. Ideally, you should push through his line before the other half of the army can reform and re-address and bring itself about; this means you can reform and charge him and send his army into dissarry quickly.

Deploy to the right of the 'o's and you should spear head him.

I'll offer magic combinations and targetting plans tomorrow when I'm not half asleep.

EDIT: Move the 'O's' across a bit :p Stupid warseer.

SiNNiX
10-04-2009, 07:34
Wow, Shamfrit. I like your idea. :)

Urgat
10-04-2009, 07:41
695 points on characters is hardly excessive (the stegadon is a stegadon in its own right, and i dont intend for it to be sitting there)

So what would you suggest? Losing the second steg for more saurus? I tried temple guard vs him last time and the fell blade ripped too many of them apart. Killed his general after 2 rounds of combat but 7 temple guard dead was nasty.


Dunno, it seems colossal to me, but ok, I play goblin. Nah, the stegas can be useful, not saying you should lose these. But 545 points on the slaan? Does he make such a difference that you have to invest in such a beast? I think you should cut a lot of points on him (I'd say cut 545 points out of him, but that's just me :p), and invest in saurus. Temple guards don't appear to be an interesting choice, though, they're a bit overkill for skavens, saurus are way enough.
I can easily see what happens when you duck it out: you're completly swarmed, no manoeuver will get you out of trouble. That's my tactic too with my gobs. This tactic starts getting bad when the guy in front has a good selection of combat troops, since they're usually better than mine (or skavens).
Anyway, you'll still be outnumbered, so don't get greedy, and focus on one side of the enemy line, keep your army packed together, and munch the rest from there. Unit for unit, your lizards are way superior to the rats, so it's all a matter of balancing out the outnumbering. But don't hesitate, coz the skavens are fast. It must be a decisive rush from your first turn.
But you're not going to be able to pull it if only two (and I wonder about the skink+krox unit) of your units can take a charge, while the army in front is specifically designed to get in melee and bog you down.

Spirit
10-04-2009, 09:07
Well, if i was to tailor the list, i wouldnt need 2 of the disceplines (remove 6's from a mage and regeneration) because he doesnt have a lot of shooting.

I could also remove 2 of the 4 power stones, that would free up 140 points. Only problem being that i need them against other enemies (i.e ones with a threatening shooting/magic phase)

I might consider doing it to face him, would give me enough points for a whole unit of kroxigor, they can usually take a skaven charge.

I could also lose the terradons against him, as they dont do too much good, but again, i was hoping to not have to resort to list tailoring, but it seems i may not have much choice.

Shamfrit, whats the most un tame 2k list you can think of? Horde wise (i know SAD liasts are a bit good)

Shamfrit
10-04-2009, 09:58
The most un-tame Skaven list? Now, untame would be something along the lines of 4-5 clanrat blocks, 4-5 slave blocks, alot of night runner screens/diverters, two MSU blocks of Plague Monks with Censer Support on one and a hunter killer attitude to the other. Two Warp Lightning Cannons as rare, and a very large and threatening unit of Stormvermin with static combat resolution of 8; very hard for even you to shift in combat for sure. The Warlord should be cheap, having nothing more than a 4+ ward and a Great Weapon; since he'll be hiding most of the time but can pop out to help the Vermin.

Giant Rat packs will cause you some concern no doubt, as they can be made big enough for Skinks to not be able to force panic tests on, move as quick as you and still beat any unit bar your Saurus on combat; same applies to the army your cousin uses - he's actually got a fairly all round Skaven force which doesn't concentrate on one aspect or the other. If he was hordeing it up, he'd have virtually no special slots at all, and basically no shooting, and just Checkerboard you into Oblivion (you must learn to defend against these movements if you've not come across them already!)

Another movement tactic to use is the Hatten Horns, which essentially involves a block of Temple Guard dead centre, and splitting the rest of your force directly between the far left and right flanks. Move said flanks forward very quickler, and the Temple Guard/Engine slowly, with perhaps MSU Saurus to one flank to fight off anything that gets over the board. Use Skinks to harass and strip ranks from his advancing units (always always always go for the clanrats over the slaves! If you panic Clanrats, it'll cause panic tests on the Slaves too, whereas it might be easier to panic the slaves but the Expendable rule saves his fur from mass panic. The idea with the horns is to hold both his flanks, and force him to either split his army line into three sections, or to turn the tide and go to the flanks; even just forcing your opponent to think carefully about his options will put the pressure on.

Now, to your actual current list:

I agree wholeheartidly with Urgat. Even as a Solo Slann, he is far too expensive. Take the Know All Lore Discipline and the Bonus dice, drop the other two. Take the Plaque and Etheral over that, giving you a 2+ ward vs missiles/magic missiles and Ethereal. Personally, I'd drop 2 disciplines and 2 stones like you suggested yourself and use those points for a unit of 12 Saurus with Spears. Not only will they take a charge, they'll flay anything that does so alive.

Two Stegadons in 2k is a no no against Hordes. The normal Steg should go, use the points here to get an extra hunting pack, two single Salamanders can harass his small units, hold up Slave units (suicide charges) on their own and of course, the template weapon against even a moderate horde is looking at hitting a good 10 clanrats if not more with good aiming/rolling - no unit in his entire army will get armour saves from it - and virtually nothing has a ward/regen - and then you've got additional panic tests to rely on.

A good Lore to take against Skaven is the Lore of Death. Two basic magic missiles allow you to pick off his support, and allow you to remove a rank bonus (and thus leadership bonuses) from all his units in turn, Doom and Darkness and a panic test on his crucial units will see them drop like flies and spread panic further, and if your Slann does get swamped, Drain Life will start causing him problems. And you've also got something to Auto-Break/cause more Terror as well.

Target selection is crucial. If you kill 6 models from each of his clanrat blocks they're suddenly LD9 instead of 10. That means they're needing to roll 6 or under for leadership tests with Doom and Darkness, 5 or under for break tests bare minimum. Remember to always try a flank attack if possible, if you can take their rank bonus away, clanrats are suddenly testing on a 4 minimum, and insane needed with Doom and Darkness. Ignore the slaves, completely. If he drops them in front of you, blow them out the way, or charge through them, 11 attacks hitting and killing on 3's from your Saurus MSU heck, even Skinks to the flank could take them. Doom Darkness/Salamander double combo one unit at a time - Stormvermin are a priority because they can have a stupid CR and bog you down the worse - and they're the most expensive. Plague Monks should be met with Saurus, they need 4's and 5's to wound, against a 4+ save, and you get a good 24 attacks in return and 18 on average.

Your cohort should drop the Kroxidor and go with 2X15 or as many as possible. Static ress and numbers of units are better, remember you can't turn them with Kroxidor in the unit, so they lose serious movement and can't combine with the Corkscrew or Spear Charge - take the 2 out of the Cohort, make it 20 in size, and then add the Kroxidor to your non cohort kroxidor and use them as line smashers.

This will still keep your list 'all comers,' and won't rely on too much tailoring - consider it more 'adaptation.' The Fellblade Warlord is the least of your worries - Banehead and Steal Soul will make him think twice about coming near you; or hunt him with a Pirahna Blade Scar Veteran ;)

Spirit
10-04-2009, 10:21
Brilliant, all that has helped a lot, one question, though, how do you get static 8 for the stormvermin?

3 ranks, std, outnumber, swarm banner?, bsb?, warbanner? with the bsb hiding at the back?

you say to ignore the slaves, but i find it hard. They simply walk right up to me and angle themselves so my choice is stay still or charge them and get flanked next turn when they flee..

Urgat
10-04-2009, 10:28
Mmmh... stegs cause terror, no? With large armies like that, keeping every unit under the general's Ld is near impossible. Considering that SiN works only in melee, you could try terror bombing on the corners of the army maybe? Skavens aren't at their best when taking psychology tests.

Shamfrit
10-04-2009, 10:32
Mmmh... stegs cause terror, no? With large armies like that, keeping every unit under the general's Ld is near impossible. Considering that SiN works only in melee, you could try terror bombing on the corners of the army maybe? Skavens aren't at their best when taking psychology tests.

All clanrat units with full SiN are actually Leadership 8. So Terror Bombing a Horde army is not an ideal tactic to rely on, especially as he's rallying on LD9. It can help break the line by all means, but that one Stegadon will get tied up by 40 points of slaves for a lonnggggg time!

Flanking units with Doom and Darkness and combined arms fire with a spearhead charge will break his line 9 times out of 10, I guarantee it.

I guarantee it because I've been the Skaven player whose had it done to me on at least 15 occaisions :wtf:

Spirit: yep, 3 ranks, banner, outnumber, Swarm Banner, BSB and Warbanner to the rear. Very hard to shift with LD10 and Break test re-rolls as well :p

Urgat
10-04-2009, 10:35
I thought SiN worked only in melee, not for things like terror tests and the like?

Shamfrit
10-04-2009, 10:48
Nope, it's for any leadership based test - so negating rank bonus will guarantee, virtually, their unit breaking. Obviously, some things like Night Runners and Globadiers don't have SiN, so you can terror them fairly easy, but the actual heart of the army is not so easy. Even with a Cheiftain instead of a Warlord, you're still LD9 within the General's bubble.

Urgat
10-04-2009, 11:58
Ah well, let's forget about the terror bomb then. Pesky vermin :p

Death Disco
10-04-2009, 13:14
Salamanders and Saurus. You don't need much more. Flame templates will do truly horrible things to Skaven hordes, and Saurus far outclass any Skaven infantry in combat. Even with full blocks on their front and side Saurus with spears can hold against Clanrats. You'll want a BSB, too.

selone
10-04-2009, 13:38
Don't skaven lose the bonus when fleeing away as they have no ranks? That used to be the case at least. The secret is to get them fleeing and then it's not so bad, trying to make them fail terror tests however as said is not easy.

Shamfrit
10-04-2009, 14:00
Sorry I meant rallying on 8, LD7 from Warlord + Musician.