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Drayken
10-04-2009, 04:00
Right now, it is generally accepted that the Warhammer world is in a period of stalemate, with every race trying to best the others but not gaining a foothold.

As far as I know, GW hasn't advanced the story in any way for a while now. The storm of Chaos is mentionned, their are a few mentions of the Albion campaign and nothing about the Nemesis Crown.

Why doesn't GW keep the story going? Hopefully they're not thinking of updating all the current armies before continuing?

ICEMANQ
10-04-2009, 04:03
To be honest, I'm just happy with being able to play Fantasy.

A far, far better game than 40K. But more on topic, perhaps they are waiting for the next edition to advance the story? What would be interesting would be a fragmented Empire due to a civil war. All the neighbours start jumping on the bandwagon perhaps.

Master Stark
10-04-2009, 04:43
Why doesn't GW keep the story going? Hopefully they're not thinking of updating all the current armies before continuing?

There is no "story".

The WHFB world is a setting, that you can play WHFB in. It is NOT a story.

Dungeon_Lawyer
10-04-2009, 05:53
There is no "story".

The WHFB world is a setting, that you can play WHFB in. It is NOT a story.
:confused:
I must respectfully disagree.

Perhaps "backstory" is a better term to use. But there certainly is more to WHFB then just a "setting that you can play whfb in": all the fluff, the background histories of great heros & villains, chronicles of major campaigns and battles as have already been mentioned that are found in the rulebooks....... Each edition has changed the background narrative, sometimes in major ways. What are these things when added together if not a story or grand narrative of some sort? They contexualize the battles that people have when they take place.

Jind_Singh
10-04-2009, 06:23
What I've noticed is that they (GW) seem to be "going back in time" before they will go forward.
Every new army book recently out - Daemons, warriors, lizzies - all have WAY more background stories and fluff.
They are really filling out the ins and outs of the armies in question - but then read some of the older army books, they pale in comparison (stunties, empire, orcs, etc).
My guess is when they get round to doing all the books we'll (hopefully) see some new stories coming out.
Go warhammer!!!!

Spider-pope
10-04-2009, 10:06
If you continually advance the setting, you end up with a situation like Vampire The Masquerade, when a player needs a dozen sourcebooks just to know what the hell is going on. Eventually you reach a point where new players wont start playing because they feel like its too much work catching up and then you end up having to reboot everything.

Personally i have no great desire to see Warhammer:The Requiem anytime soon, so slow plot advancement is fine by me. Since there's several thousand years of battle and strife in the Warhammer timeline, not advancing the story is no big limitation. You want an epic campaign/war/event, just look a couple of hundred years back and there's a setting that will fit.

AramilSairSianontel
10-04-2009, 10:42
If a gw employ reads this :
Please do not advance the background story
a faithfull-even fanatic- costumer and player

Drongol
10-04-2009, 11:52
Oddly enough, this whole "storyline progression" thing that people keep harping about only became an issue when Privateer Press hit the scene with their ill-conceived Uwe Boll-esque plotline. Suddenly, everyone wanted one for their own game, and I just don't get it.

The Warmachine/Hordes storyline is corny and has to make continual twists to justify why all four factions are getting involved. I love the game, but I can't stand the evolving fluff. I'm positive others will disagree, but it's a taste thing.

Legend of the Five Rings is a game that's had player-driven background since its inception. It is currently the second-longest-running CCG, to my knowledge. Due to the player-driven storyline, ridiculous things happen on a semi-regular basis, such as wars between two factions that share no border and inappropriate people rising up to take public office. Oh, and these wars almost never have a clear winner because to do so would alienate one of their playerbases and could hurt sales.

As mentioned earlier, the World of Darkness had so much plot advancement that new players would often need to read a goodly number of books just to know what the hell was going on. Not a good idea, which is why they rebooted it to the new WoD and a much less convoluted backstory.

Now let's address Warhammer. Firstly, the backstory really doesn't matter and is rarely important in the actual game. Sure, you can theoretically use the ancient (and now-dead) legendary hero in your game, but there's nothing stopping you from using him alongside a contemporary character. Warhammer is a setting, at least as far as FB is concerned, and it's one that lacks quite a bit of consistency.

In the past, GW tried "advancing the storyline" with big player-driven events, most of which were immediately cited for corruption by the player base. Problem there is, in any game where people identify closely with the faction they use, sales will be hurt if you make someone a clear loser. So when the Dark Elves won the Albion campaign, they got two or three magic items in a WD that they could take (one of them was actually fairly decent). Nothing major, but it was somewhat nifty. Oh, and each army book might have just a tiny bit more about battles being fought or whatever, but nothing serious.

Then we had the Storm of Chaos to coincide with the 13th Black Crusade. At the very beginning, these were monstrous failures on the part of Games Workshop. Both events were said to be apocalyptic and potentially universe-ending, but GW decided to turn them into far smaller things. This was their first major mistake. To speak specifically of Archaon, he is the Everchosen, and the first to get all seven Magical Doodads of Grimdark. He's supposed to be the sort of guy who burns the world while everyone else gets killed by stabbing.

And they took this harbinger of the end times, this herald of doom, this BAMF, and they let the players decide his fate? That's the ultimate failure right there. So, of course, the players all get together and dump on Chaos and the Storm is easily weathered. So what's GW to do?

After the Storm of Chaos, Chaos looked like a joke. Their highly-prophesied "End Times" scenario wound up beating down Kislev and that's it. After the Old World took everything Chaos could throw at it and said "Is that the best you pansies can do?," why would they be overly afraid of Chaos again?

So, tacitly admitting their mistake, GW decides to not mention the Storm of Chaos ever, ever again. And not to do any more mega-events of doom. And that's a good thing.

All storyline advancement can give us is "Oh hey, they fought another battle!" It ultimately does nothing for the game except making it more confusing and upsetting players.

Drongol

Mireadur
10-04-2009, 12:48
Im happy to see theres numerous people like me who dont want an advance in the story. Mainly because the people who wrote WH in the past were guys like Bill King (a master) while lately its been written by Gav or Pirinen (no offense mean to them, i just believe they are miles away from a real writer like King).

Bregalad
10-04-2009, 13:57
There is no "story".

The WHFB world is a setting, that you can play WHFB in. It is NOT a story.

Seconded. The setting is the balanced background for games and should stay fixed. It wouldn't get better if it changes every year.

Brimweave
10-04-2009, 17:20
I personally would like the story to advance forward as the warhammer World is feeling abit stagnant currently. The current rules for the Warhammer game are pretty much perfect IMO and so maybe the next rulebook will just have some extra rule changes and alot more lore and abit of story advancement.

I understand why the story can't advanced to much as it will make certain factions look alot more rubbish and weak but alit bit of advancement is still good. I can't understand also how it will make the story more confusing have story advancement. If you read the rulebooks history you can get a pretty good idea of the history of the warhammer world anyways and also if you don't care about the story, why would you care if the story advanced?

The Anarchist
10-04-2009, 17:21
firstly might it be an idea to adda poll to this thread, give options of; you would like growth, no growth and indiffernt.

however i personaly belive a little slow growth over time is a good thing, and adds to the hobby.

i see many people don't like the idea change for fewar that it might drive people whos army is loseing away from the hobby, and that it might get too convoluted for new people to enter the hobby. i think people have a point here but only because if anything too extreme happens, however smaller changes could work, for this i will present an alternative ending for the strom of chaos that i feel might ahve progressed the stroy line, without turining anyone away from the game.

chaos win; The Combined armies of the Empire were unable to lift the seige of Middenheim and the Everchosen of Chaos has made good upon his promise to defile the high temple of Sigmars own God. however in its victory the Chaos horde now within the empire lacks purpose and sits inside the empire despoiling the lands of the north, many roving chaos warbands now penetrate ever deeper into the heart of the Empire. whilst Middenheim may have been despoiled but the forces of the Empire are not beaten. Under the command of Emperor, Karl-Franz still intends to recapture Middenhiem and commands a well trained and now blooded army of men of the empire marching again towards Middenheim. however with the Empires armies marching northward beastmen and orcs throughout the old world have easy pickings deeper within the Empire. the Dwaren holds are also under every greater pressure as their troops march under the high-king in the aid of the Empire.

All is not well further abroad either; in Bretonia the cost in lives after assulting the young knights Errants great battles with chaos hordes before the empire could join them has made many in Bretonia question wether they should be riding to the Empire's aid, or looking to their own defenses. however king Lenocour still continues the war, and now leads the greater part of all the knights of bretonia over the mountians intending to win great battles aganst the minnions of chaos.

the high elves as well have not fared well in Strom of Chaos, the sea-lords armies ahving been beaten back with losses are unable to join and help their allies in the old world. but more worryingly have lost many ships once used to defend their homeland; leaving them more open to the preditations of the Norsican longships and their dark kin.

Alternative Empire Win;

the great hordes of chaos were unable to break the Fortress of Middenhiem before the combined forces of the Empire, Bretonia and their dwarven allies came to relive Middenheim. following the battle of Middenheim a great part of the Chaos horde was destroyed, however great number of chaos warbands and beastmen fled the feild and are now scattered throughout the forrests and hidden areas of the Empire. a scourge upon a great number of provinces throughout the empire, now without a unified purpose the forces of Chaos are a danger to all areas of chaos and the armies of the Empire cannot be everywhere at once.
with the forces of chaos weakened and the tide of change retreating further north it ahs hearlded a new age of trade and conntact between the high elves and the empire. with the supremacy of the High elves over the seas increased there is even talk of the mounting of a new expidition aganst the Dark kin.

overall i don't think this would really insense anyone faction, as each as been effected by the storm of chaos, but is still in a position of strength and set to do more battles than ever. so whilst someone can be seen to have lsot, nobody ahs lost to the sense that they feel so pissed off to leave the hobby.

also whislt this is fairly big change, its the sort of thing that cna be explained in each armies army book fairly susinctly and with little page space.

hope i havn't rambled on for too long.

Master Stark
10-04-2009, 23:05
What are these things when added together if not a story or grand narrative of some sort?

They are a SETTING, thats what.

The background of WHFB is not some grand narrative, with a start, a middle and an end. It is a backdrop against which you, the player, can tell your own stories or add to the already existing ones.


the people who wrote WH in the past were guys like Bill King (a master)

I'd like to think you wer joking, but I can't see a smiley in there anywhere.

Bill King? A MASTER?

Er, no.

Dungeon_Lawyer
11-04-2009, 11:58
They are a SETTING, thats what.

The background of WHFB is not some grand narrative, with a start, a middle and an end. It is a backdrop against which you, the player, can tell your own stories or add to the already existing ones.


Quite frankly I dont care for the tone of your posts starky, keep it civil, turn down the self-rightousness, using caps dont make you right pal.
Kislev has been destroyed, the squats were whiped out by a tyranid hive fleet, Sylvania in no longer an autonomous section of the empire in its own right and no Vampire count currently rules it, the DE gained some nifty magic items due to winning a campaign in WD---I could go on and on, GW games have a story, they progress. I think we can all agree that we want it to move very slowly and for it not to be game changing but moving it is......


:eyebrows:
I hope you realize that in the same post where you decry the use of the term "story" and "grand narrative" to describe what goes on in the world where WHFB takes place, you then go on to state that players "can tell {their}own STORIES or ADD TO THE ALREADY EXISTING ONES."

So Im confused.....:confused: If players are to add "to the already existing stories" then stories in WHFB-By what you wrote in your own post- must exist! Though you attempt to argue that they dont exist . Thats kinda of funny, illogical, and just plan fuzzy thinking. Be more precise in the words you use in your assertions - lest they be used, like a rapier, to tear your argument to shreds :p

selone
11-04-2009, 20:02
The squats got ate by a tyranid hive fleet?

Master Stark
12-04-2009, 00:12
Quite frankly I dont care for the tone of your posts starky

:eyebrows:

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less if you care for the tone of my posts.

Yes, there are narratives in the background of the Warhammer world.

But the background itself is not a narrative that needs to reach a conclusion.

Dungeon_Lawyer
12-04-2009, 06:05
The squats got ate by a tyranid hive fleet?

Yes, Hive fleet Kraken? Behemoth? (someone will know) That was the reasoning given for their elimination as a playable army and to no longer make models for them. Squat guild-lords had a really cool psykic power in 2nd edition: some kind of force field that was big enough template wise to cover an entire tank or squad , it was really cool. I converted a squat dude and used him as my IG main psyker, since IG psykic powers sucked.

Alas, their homeworlds have long since been digested and pooped out the back of the hive fleet that wrecked shop on them...(now its bothering me which HF did it.....I'll have to check and see if its in the old
2nd ed nids codex.) sorry for going off topic.

Number 24
12-04-2009, 19:46
Story progression causes way more problems than it solves. Just look at Battletech and how fragmented the community is. You've got gamers who won't play anything past 3039 (or 2770 for some of the real hardcore), and you've got the gamers who want to play at the very forefront of the new material which only costs them hundreds of dollars to keep updating their sourcebooks and buying new minis (while not continuing to use their old minis because you can't build cohesive units out of technology that's nearly a century apart).

There's basically three or four different Battletech games and you have to choose which of them you're going to play. And it's not like you can take your old Star League minis and throw them in a game against 3076 Jihadists because the tech (and many of the rules) is completely different. Story progression leads to either broken game mechanics for some units or a fractured game where you have people playing different eras with different rules. It's more expensive for the player and it only makes it harder to find people to game with (because even if you find a Battletech player out there, there's no guarantee they want to play the same Battletech you want to play).

Stark is right. It's a setting, not a story. There's a story component in the history of the setting, but ultimately, it is a setting.

The Anarchist
12-04-2009, 21:21
number 24 whilst i can apprecite your anology using battletech isn't really appropriate, for two main reasons. firstly whilst the rules have changed from eddition to eddition GW has always endevoured to make sure no models become unusable, and those that have normlay come back in one way or another. so whislt the game may be differnt from one eddition to the other the game has kept continuity, which battletech didn't really; it became differnt games through the differnt edditions.
secondly few people here are advocating a massive leap forward for WFB, just a slow progression and growth. so providing GW dosn't go for any mad changes and leap forward in time theres no reason why we would have hardcore gamers creating timeline acceptable in their groups.