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fubukii
10-04-2009, 04:03
can a epic hero join a mumak?

takaetun
10-04-2009, 04:23
No. The Mumak is a monster, not a formation, regardless of the model.

lorelorn
10-04-2009, 07:21
Epic heroes can join only cavalry and infantry formations - they must have a company to join, and no single model formations have those.

fubukii
10-04-2009, 17:35
ok thats what i thought, my friend was thinking he could have his hero replace one of the crew members so he could at the double his mumak....

thank god lol

Sarah S
10-04-2009, 18:43
Actually...
Let's look at the rules shall we?


Most importantly, Epic Heroes are not an upgrade to a formation - they are placed in the command company (see page 60) of the controlling player's choice during deployment, displacing one of the other models in the company.
page 68.


The command company is the first company in a formation, and is always placed as near to the centre of a formation's front rank as possible.
page 60.


Rare Formation
Single model.
Any monster entry, for example Mordor Troll, page 156.


Rare Formation
One company comprising a Mumak and thirteen crew. <emphasis mine>
War Mumak of Harad entry on page 198.

The Mumak is a company and being the first (and only company) in its formation, it is the command company.

I can't see any reason why an Epic Hero would be prevented from joining the Mumak, displacing one of the crew.

lorelorn
10-04-2009, 22:51
No.

Every single infantry and cavalry formation entry has the following in large type under their entry: COMMAND.

This tells you that the first compnay is always the command company, and what upgrades are available. This is the compnay an epic hero will join. The Mumak has no such notation. It has no command company.

As a single model, and as a monster, it has no command compnay for an epic hero to join.

You are right, the epic hero always joins the command company. A mumak does not have one.

Sarah S
10-04-2009, 22:59
That listing of "Command" is only to show the options for command figures that the unit can take.

There are plenty of other units that don't say "Command" in their entry, but can be joined as normal, such as every artillery formation, Uruk-hai Sappers and Berserkers, Feral Uruk-hai, Wild Men of Dunland, Giant Spider Broods, Clouds of Bats, Spider Broodling Swarms, Spectral Hosts and Werewolf Packs.

The general rule, as I posted, from page 60 is that the first company purchased is the Command Company, so there is no need to repeat that on the unit entries.

Even if that was conceded as proof that the Mumak is not a Command Company (which I certainly do not concede in light of page 60), it isn't strictly true that Epic Heroes have to go into a Command Company anyways:

For this and other reasons, there will sometimes not be room in the command company for the Epic Hero... When this happens it is perfectly acceptable for the Epic Hero to occupy another company as close to the front of the formation as possible.
page 68

If they wanted the Mumak to not be able to take Epic Heroes, then they should have given it We Stand Alone.

lorelorn
11-04-2009, 01:37
Do we agree that epic heroes can never join formations lists as 'single model', reagrdless of any We Stand Alone rule?

I think we do.

But - why can't they? Surely it is because, as we are both referring to, that epic heroes have to join a company - specifically the command company. No command company to join, no epic hero.

If there is a command company, but it's full of command and epic hero models already, only then may an epic hero be placed in a formation in a place other than the command company.

That only applies where there is a command company in the first place. No command company, no epic hero.

Even the rules on moving epic heroes make this clear - they are moved to the command company of a friendly formation within 18". No command company, no epic hero.

Where does this leave We Stand Alone? At first glance this ability seems incongruous. It's not limited to Spirits, it's not limited to formations with a command company. The rules are quite clear that these can never be joined by epic heroes. Does that by inference mean that every other formation can be? I'm not so sure.

I don't think any of the formations you've listed above can be joined by epic heroes, becasue they don't have command companies.

I think they went through the trouble of repeating "The first compnay purchased is always the command company" across multiple entries across all the lists to differentiate those formations that do have command companies from those formations that don't.

You I think disagree, on the basis that the statement "The command company is always the first company in a formation' on page 60 trumps this. Given that page 60 is the section talking about command companies, why would they bother mentioning those formations that don't have command companies? Some formations in this game clearly don't.

Further down on page 60 you'll note this "Most of the models in a command company will be the same rank and file troops as makes up the formation as a whole. However, as shown in the Bestiary, individual models can be upgraded to Captains, Banner Bearers, and other special types of fighters."

A command company is where:
1. normal troops can be upgrded to special troops, as per the bestiary entry
2. epic heroes are places when they join the formation

A formation with no bestiary entry for a command company has no command company. Seems obvious, yes? No command company, no epic hero.



Why then, did they bother to put We Stand Alone on formations with no command company, where epic heroes cannot join anyway. Presumably for the same reason they put Wargbane on a character that can never use it. When you find out that reason, let me know.

Sarah S
11-04-2009, 01:41
I don't think any of the formations you've listed above can be joined by epic heroes, becasue they don't have command companies.
...
A formation with no bestiary entry for a command company has no command company. Seems obvious, yes? No command company, no epic hero.

That's ridiculous and would anger many Angmar players counting on putting their Epic Heroes in their Spectres, the only ghost unit without We Stand Alone.

We Stand Alone exists for a reason. Your interpretation is nonsense because it means that there is absolutely no reason to have We Stand Alone.

Page 60 does not allow for any circumstances under which a unit can be purchased without a Command Company.

The command company is the first company in a formation, and is ALWAYS placed as near to the centre of a formation's front rank as possible.
Note that it simply says it's the first company in the formation. Not usually, not sometimes, not depending on the unit selection, it says it is the first company in the formation. Full stop.

Also note that, logically, it has to exist if it is always to be put in the centre of the formation's front rank.

Edit:
I found where you went wrong:

But - why can't they? Surely it is because, as we are both referring to, that epic heroes have to join a company - specifically the command company. No command company to join, no epic hero.
No, that's not the reason at all! Every time someone says "surely" that's where they're mistaken!

The reason they can't join monsters is because they have to join a company. We go that far in agreement. Your statement after that is totally unsupported by the rules however.

The rules on page 68 are clear that there are many legitimate circumstances for an Epic Hero to join a company other than the command company. They provide several examples, but the examples are in no way exhaustive. The use of the phrase "for this and other reasons..." shows the non-exhaustive nature of the defined purposes. One of the "other reasons" why an Epic Hero is unable to join the Command Company may be because it doesn't have a command company!

Heroes in Cavalry units will never be able to be put in the command company with any upgrades, because of the restriction against having more Epic Heroes in a company than the number of regular models. For any reason he would be prevented from being put in the command company, "it is perfectly acceptable for the Epic Hero to occupy another company..."

So that's not the reason an Epic Hero can't join single model formations at all.

Rather, the reason they can't join single model formation is because they aren't companies at all. Being a command company has nothing to do with it. Being a company does.
Of course since all formations DO have command companies because of page 60, this only matters to shed light on the real reason that Epic Heroes can't join single model formations - because they have 0 companies of any type.

Edit2:
Note that under your interpretation, Epic Heroes would be unable to join formations whose command companies have died during the course of the game.
For example:
A 2 company formation of Cavalry with a command company and a regular company, deployed side by side.
The unit gets engaged on the flank, so that only the regular company is engaged in the fight and suffers 2 casualties.
The casualty removal rules require that the command company bear the casualties because they are not in the fight. The command company is now destroyed.
With your interpretation, the remaining non-command company would not be able to have Epic Heroes join it.
That's silly.

Nu Fenix
11-04-2009, 02:06
Even if the logic was that many units which don't have a Command listed can't be joined because they are too beastial, but what about units such as Wild Men of Dunland and Watcher Warbands?

I have to disagree with you lorelorn.

All the units which don't have it state that their first unit purchased are the Command Company are because they can't buy any command models. Saying they have a Command Company but can't buy command would seem silly!

As long as the Companies and Formations follow the rules so that the Epic Hero can fit due to the number of non-upgraded models in them, I can't see why a Epic Hero couldn't join them.

As a Fallen Realm player with allies of Spectral Hosts, I would feel that if an Epic Hero couldn't join certain units because they lack a Command Company but also lack the We Stand Alone rule, I would feel like someone is tricking me and trying to avoid me placing Amdur in Half-Trolls. Many Fallen Realm players have or would like to put Amdur in their unit, and wouldn't contemplate they couldn't because they don't come with a commandless command.

lorelorn
11-04-2009, 02:25
Saying they have a Command Company but can't buy command would seem silly!.

But that is what you are saying isn't it? That the fact they cannot buy command models does not stop them from having a command company? You know, the one they can't by any upgrades for?

I disagree. But I could be wrong.

I was looking forward to, for example, putting Saruman in a formation of Giant Spiders and having him move 12", prowl, and have poison, but I don't think I can.

Sarah S
11-04-2009, 02:28
But that is what you are saying isn't it? That the fact they cannot buy command models does not stop them from having a command company? You know, the one they can't by any upgrades for?
No.
I'm saying that they do have Command Companies, and GW didn't feel the need to have a heading for "Command Company" in their unit entry because they have no upgrades for the command company.

The rules on page 60 already say that the first company is the command company, so there is no need to repeat it, except for formations that can actually buy upgrades for the command company.

lorelorn
11-04-2009, 02:44
That's ridiculous and would anger many Angmar players counting on putting their Epic Heroes in their Spectres, the only ghost unit without We Stand Alone.
Yes, no free spirit rules for allied Angmar heroes


We Stand Alone exists for a reason. Your interpretation is nonsense because it means that there is absolutely no reason to have We Stand Alone. Just like the Wargbane character - what is his purpose?



Page 60 does not allow for any circumstances under which a unit can be purchased without a Command Company. Again, page 60 is the section discussing command companies, why discuss those formations without them? Also, it clearly states a command company has upgrades as per the bestiary entry. No bestiary entry, no command company, no upgrades.[/quote]



Note that it simply says it's the first company in the formation. Not usually, not sometimes, not depending on the unit selection, it says it is the first company in the formation. Full stop. I've already quoted the relevant folllow-on sentence.



Also note that, logically, it has to exist if it is always to be put in the centre of the formation's front rank. In formations with a command company, the command company always has to be placed in the centre of the formation's front rank. Naturally the rules section on command companies is only talking about those formations with command companies.




The rules on page 68 are clear that there are many legitimate circumstances for an Epic Hero to join a company other than the command company. They give one. One only. That is where there is not enough room in the company for the epic hero model to be placed. One. There are many ways in which this cirucmstance can come about, but it is the only reason to place the epic hero elsewhere.[/quote]



One of the "other reasons" why an Epic Hero is unable to join the Command Company may be because it doesn't have a command company!. Yes. Epic heroes cannot join non-existent command companies. Or formations with non-existence command companies.



Being a command company has nothing to do with it. Being a company does.
Of course since all formations DO have command companies because of page 60, this only matters to shed light on the real reason that Epic Heroes can't join single model formations - because they have 0 companies of any type.

Page 68. "For this and other reasons, there will sometimes not be room in the command company for Epic heroes..."
It's quite clear that epic heroes can only join the command company of a formation. The only way they can join a formation any be placed other than in the command company is where the formation in question has a command company, and that company is full. That is very clear.




Note that under your interpretation, Epic Heroes would be unable to join formations whose command companies have died during the course of the game. Correct. While you don't have to keep your command company until last, it's good practise to do so where you can. Likewise, putting your opponent's formations in a position where they have to lose their command company before the rest of the formation will cripple their effectiveness. It's a good tactic.




With your interpretation, the remaining non-command company would not be able to have Epic Heroes join it.
That's silly.
If you say so. It's also correct. No command company, no epic heroes.

Sarah S
11-04-2009, 02:56
Yes, no free spirit rules for allied Angmar heroes
Just like the Wargbane character - what is his purpose?
To fight against Wargs.
The game system allows for evil v. evil fights.




I've already quoted the relevant folllow-on sentence.

Yeah, you see that little dot before the sentence you quoted? It's called a period. It means that you read it totally out of context.

It says:

However, as shown in the Bestiary, individual models can be upgraded to Captains, Banner Bearers, and other special types of fighters.
All it says is that Bestiary's will show that models can be upgraded. It makes no requirement that a unit has to have a "command company" entry in their bestiary.

The rest is totally unfounded, being little more than taking your commitment to your position to an illogical extreme, and requires no reply.

lorelorn
11-04-2009, 03:42
To fight against Wargs.
The game system allows for evil v. evil fights.

That character will never fight against wargs. Never. Unless you think that his ability transfers to the formation/company he joins. Remember the character never attacks, only the company does. The Wargbane ability has no purpose. Yet it is there.

Sarah S
11-04-2009, 03:44
Yeah, fair enough, but so are all the other "bane" abilities that any hero has.

lorelorn
11-04-2009, 04:06
That's right. Glorfindel gets his, because he's a legendary formation so he's okay. Gimli might get his Orcbane, if he joins the Iron Guard Ancients, but then so would any other epic hero joining the unit, so it doesn't mater that Gimli has it.

Some things (like bane on heroes) I just can't work out. I suspect that some of these rules and phrases survived from an earlier iteration of the rules where they were relevant. Like how the Spider Queen has Pathfinder(All) which I would guess is an earlier name for Pathfinder(Master) which I would always play her as having.

Sarah S
11-04-2009, 14:48
But, again, that's doubly irrelevant, because:
a.) all formations do have command companies
b.) Epic Heroes don't require a command company to join the formation

Rirekon
11-04-2009, 17:33
Got to agree with Sarah S, the Mumak can defiantly have Epic Heroes join it - I can see how it's confusing though as I believe it's the only Monster which has Companies - but it specifies it is a Formation of 1 Company.

Kordos
12-04-2009, 02:19
Yup same here - an epic hero can join a Mumak, I see no problems with the rules

shadowz
12-04-2009, 03:08
Ok I think you are wrong about an epic hero on a mumak. here are my 2 reasons: 1 you roll on a chart when you hit it, and 2 if it counts as a formation then it once you kill 7 crewmen then the "Hope is lost!" rule must take affect. the rule is on page 50 if you want to reference it.

Sarah S
12-04-2009, 03:18
That is a good point that I hadn't thought of.
While it does seem the natural consequence of defining it as a formation, it is also very stupid.

I would say that this issue requires an errata at the least.

Kordos
12-04-2009, 03:42
Ok I think you are wrong about an epic hero on a mumak. here are my 2 reasons: 1 you roll on a chart when you hit it, and 2 if it counts as a formation then it once you kill 7 crewmen then the "Hope is lost!" rule must take affect. the rule is on page 50 if you want to reference it.

Yes I can see your logic behind your reasoning but that still doesn't stop an epic hero from joining the Mumak.
I also agree that a hero prob shouldn't be able to join the Mumak and I won't be surprised if this is clarified in a faq or errata but as it stand now, by the rules as they are presented in the book, an epic hero can join the Mumak

Sarah S
12-04-2009, 03:45
It needs Indomitable though...

thorgrim
19-04-2009, 19:52
Yep i'm with Sarah S and the others epic heroes can join a mumak. It is perfectly legal to have the shadowlord riding in a 'stealth' mumak. Cheesy but legal.

Reinholt
19-04-2009, 22:54
Per Page 198.

Mumak Unit Type: Monster. (Notice that, quite conspicuously, the crew are not given a unit type)

You cannot join a Mumak with an Epic Hero.

Sarah S
19-04-2009, 23:13
There's nothing that says a Hero can't join a monster, so that's irrelevant.

dtjunkie19
19-04-2009, 23:20
So since (pg 24) all monsters are formations of 1 company, any epic hero can join any monster?

Even if that is permissable by the wording of the rules, its blatantly against intent. There is even a whole section under epic heroes dedicated to explaining why heroes can be infantry and cavalry in the same game. (entitled: Infantry or cavalry?) notice the explicit lack of: Or monsters.

Reinholt
19-04-2009, 23:25
... what?

Yes, there is. Heroes must exist in the command company of a formation; Monsters have no command companies, as per normal formations.

For reference, notice that on p34 Monsters are referenced once and then said they will not be discussed further in the section on units, companies, and what not, all before they get into companies and ranks.

Likewise, notice in the description of the Mumak that the monster is listed before the crew, which has no unit type. There's no object there eligible to have a command company (monsters are not composed of companies, they are monsters); the crew are a non-unit, and the Mumak itself is a monster.

Conversely, if you want to tell me the Mumak itself is the command company because a monster is its own command company AND that a hero can join it, you are going to be really pissed off when you start having to face down things like Balrogs with Gothmog joined to them on the battlefield, or Gandalf joined to a King's Champion.

Seriously, this is stretching far beyond credulity.

The Mumak is a monster. Period. That's all the unit type is listed as in the unit profile. An epic hero cannot join a Mumak.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 08:55
... what?

Yes, there is. Heroes must exist in the command company of a formation; Monsters have no command companies, as per normal formations.

For reference, notice that on p34 Monsters are referenced once and then said they will not be discussed further in the section on units, companies, and what not, all before they get into companies and ranks.

Likewise, notice in the description of the Mumak that the monster is listed before the crew, which has no unit type. There's no object there eligible to have a command company (monsters are not composed of companies, they are monsters); the crew are a non-unit, and the Mumak itself is a monster.

Conversely, if you want to tell me the Mumak itself is the command company because a monster is its own command company AND that a hero can join it, you are going to be really pissed off when you start having to face down things like Balrogs with Gothmog joined to them on the battlefield, or Gandalf joined to a King's Champion.

Seriously, this is stretching far beyond credulity.

The Mumak is a monster. Period. That's all the unit type is listed as in the unit profile. An epic hero cannot join a Mumak.

Monsters are through out the book listed as Formations of a single model, the Mumak however is a Formation of 1 Company.
The first Company in any Formation is the Command Company - Heroes are placed in the Company Company.

:)

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 12:21
:mad:

No. Re-read your rules. There is a passage in the Epic Heroes section that would specifically prohibit an Epic Hero from joining a 1-model command company.

This is simple; it's specifically prohibited for a number of reasons. No No No No No No No.

No.

Axis
20-04-2009, 13:31
...No.

This pretty much sums it all up.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 13:37
:mad:

No. Re-read your rules. There is a passage in the Epic Heroes section that would specifically prohibit an Epic Hero from joining a 1-model command company.

This is simple; it's specifically prohibited for a number of reasons. No No No No No No No.

No.

It's not 1 model, no where in it's description does it say so - unlike Monsters which specify that in the grey Formation info box.
Seriously go and re-read the Mumak entry, it specifies that it is a Formation of 1 Company. If I had the book on me I'd quote the differences for you, but please just go and read it.

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 16:17
I have the book handy, and as I have cited repeatedly as well as provided references from the book for, look at the Unit Type section in the book.

Crew Unit type: "-"

It's not a unit! Nothing can join them!

Mumak Unit type: "Monster"

Epic Heroes cannot join monsters, for a number of rules cited above. There is nothing confusing here, if you look beyond the one tiny grey box you are trying to use to rules-lawyer a hero onto a Mumak and read, I don't know, any of the other rules for the game ever.

NO.

Marauder
20-04-2009, 16:44
I agree with Reinholt. Epic heroes can't join monster formations. How would you resolve a heroic duel? The only rules regarding duels and monsters are for monsters that are themselves heroes - not with one on them.

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 17:14
Epic Heroes cannot join monsters, for a number of rules cited above. There is nothing confusing here, if you look beyond the one tiny grey box you are trying to use to rules-lawyer a hero onto a Mumak and read, I don't know, any of the other rules for the game ever.

Nothing has been cited though... People just keep saying they are going to cite rules and then never do.

If you can find the rule that says Epic Heroes can't join Monsters as opposed to a rule which says that Epic Heroes can join companies, then by all means please post it.

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 17:34
Several reasons:

1 - Monsters have no command companies.

2 - Epic Heroes may not join units where they would be the majority of the command company.

3 - There are no rules / models / references to an epic hero & monster combination anywhere in the entire book, while there are a plethora of them referencing both infantry and cavalry.

In short, No. It's totally nonsensical for a number of reasons, and the reason I'm so incredulous about this is that if you take any time at all to read the book it becomes painfully apparent it's not happening.

And if you play it that way, I'm going to be laughing my ass off when you get nailed with something like Khamul joined to a Balrog.

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 17:43
Several reasons:

1 - Monsters have no command companies.

Not explicitly stated. All formations with companies have command companies and the first company purchased is always the command company, as per page 60.


2 - Epic Heroes may not join units where they would be the majority of the command company.
Not sure what you mean by "unit" in this case. They can't join companies where they would be in the majority in any company, but if there are too many fancy things in the command company, they are allowed to go into any other company that they desire (as per p.68). Not sure where you are going with this one.


3 - There are no rules / models / references to an epic hero & monster combination anywhere in the entire book, while there are a plethora of them referencing both infantry and cavalry.

I don't see any problems at all actually.


In short, No. It's totally nonsensical for a number of reasons, and the reason I'm so incredulous about this is that if you take any time at all to read the book it becomes painfully apparent it's not happening.

And if you play it that way, I'm going to be laughing my ass off when you get nailed with something like Khamul joined to a Balrog.

Doesn't work that way. A Balrog, like all other monsters except the Mumak say "Rare Formation Single Model."

The entire difference is because the rules say "Rare Formation One company comprising a Mumak and thirteen crew" for the Mumak.

Epic Heroes can join companies. It is clear in the rules on page 68. The rules say they can join a company and do not restrict their joining to any type of company. The Mumak, being a company, is eligible.

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 17:49
Right, except when you look a bit more closely at the Mumak's entry, what are the unit types listed to the right?

"-" and "Monster"; where the "-" is the crew (a non-unit) and the "Monster" is the Mumak, and coincidentally, listed first.

So are you suggesting to me that the Epic Hero can join the single-model Monster that is the Mumak itself? The other thing isn't a unit, so clearly that's not getting joined, as it's explicit that a hero must join a unit.

If so, what's the difference with the Balrog?

Charax
20-04-2009, 18:25
Right, except when you look a bit more closely at the Mumak's entry, what are the unit types listed to the right?

"-" and "Monster"; where the "-" is the crew (a non-unit)
That's an assumption you've pulled out of nowhere (to put it politely) and are now using as the sole, pivotal point in your argument

A unit has several characteristics, one of which is type. Having a null value for any of these characteristics does not stop the unit being a unit, and there are no rules that would support an exception being made in the case of the Type characteristic.

Having a null Type simply means simply that - it has no Type, and is therefore not affected by rules that specify a certain Type must be the target. Nowhere is there a rule that states having a null value for this particular characteristic makes the unit cease to be a unit.

When you're having to make up rules to support your argument, you've lost.

If so, what's the difference with the Balrog?
You really need this explaining to you? OK:

Balrog:
Rare Formation, Single Model
- The Balrog Formation has no Companies
- The Balrog Formation therefore has no Command Company
- Epic Heroes are placed in the Command Company of the formation they join [p68].
- an Epic Hero therefore cannot join the Balrog formation because there is no Command Company within the Balrog Formation wherein it can be placed.

Mumak:
Rare Formation, one company consisting of a Mumak and thirteen crew
- The Mumak Formation has a single Company.
- Every formation with Companies has a Command Company [p60].
- The Mumak & crew are therefore their own Command Company, being the first (and only) company in the formation.
- an Epic Hero is deployed in "the command company of the controlling player's choice" [p68] and may move to "any other friendly command company within 18" [p68 again]
- No Type restriction is placed on either the initial deployment or subsequent moves to different formations.
- An Epic Hero can therefore join any Formation containing Companies regardless of type, so long as other rules do not prevent them (We Stand Alone, for example)

Sarah's (oft-repeated) explaination is pretty watertight.

Jorgen_CAB
20-04-2009, 18:35
To me it is quite clear that an Epic Hero can't joint it, based on the fact that the crew simply are a base for calculating the number of ranged attacks that the Mumak get's, and to control it.

The company only contain one model and that is the Mumak itself (the crew does not count becasue they are not a unit/company). I don't think that the developer intended for the Mumak to include any Heroes of any kind.

Jorgen_CAB
20-04-2009, 18:39
Mumak:
Rare Formation, one company consisting of a Mumak and thirteen crew
- The Mumak Formation has a single Company.
- Every formation with Companies has a Command Company [p60].
- The Mumak & crew are therefore their own Command Company, being the first (and only) company in the formation.
- an Epic Hero is deployed in "the command company of the controlling player's choice" [p68] and may move to "any other friendly command company within 18" [p68 again]
- No Type restriction is placed on either the initial deployment or subsequent moves to different formations.
- An Epic Hero can therefore join any Formation containing Companies regardless of type, so long as other rules do not prevent them (We Stand Alone, for example).

Wouldn't that mean that you remove the Mumak if seven crew members are removed as casualties since it does not have indomitable?

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 19:39
Exactly; if you introduce that, you have all kinds of problems:

1 - Mumak vanishes after 7 crew die.

2 - Mumak now has to split attacks in terms of how it fights, because some of its troops are not Monsters.

3 - By your argument, there is also nothing preventing me from joining a monster.

A monster is a formation. The monster itself is the first (and only) company in the formation. By default, this makes the monster the command company. Therefore, without any "type" restriction, I can deploy my Epic Hero with the monster.

No. No. No. No. No.

I'm done arguing this point; I think it's painfully transparent and arguing otherwise is rules-lawyering at its worst (or, if you are German, wurst).

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 19:41
That's an assumption you've pulled out of nowhere (to put it politely) and are now using as the sole, pivotal point in your argument

A unit has several characteristics, one of which is type. Having a null value for any of these characteristics does not stop the unit being a unit, and there are no rules that would support an exception being made in the case of the Type characteristic.

Having a null Type simply means simply that - it has no Type, and is therefore not affected by rules that specify a certain Type must be the target. Nowhere is there a rule that states having a null value for this particular characteristic makes the unit cease to be a unit.

When you're having to make up rules to support your argument, you've lost.

You really need this explaining to you? OK:

Balrog:
Rare Formation, Single Model
- The Balrog Formation has no Companies
- The Balrog Formation therefore has no Command Company
- Epic Heroes are placed in the Command Company of the formation they join [p68].
- an Epic Hero therefore cannot join the Balrog formation because there is no Command Company within the Balrog Formation wherein it can be placed.

Mumak:
Rare Formation, one company consisting of a Mumak and thirteen crew
- The Mumak Formation has a single Company.
- Every formation with Companies has a Command Company [p60].
- The Mumak & crew are therefore their own Command Company, being the first (and only) company in the formation.
- an Epic Hero is deployed in "the command company of the controlling player's choice" [p68] and may move to "any other friendly command company within 18" [p68 again]
- No Type restriction is placed on either the initial deployment or subsequent moves to different formations.
- An Epic Hero can therefore join any Formation containing Companies regardless of type, so long as other rules do not prevent them (We Stand Alone, for example)

Sarah's (oft-repeated) explaination is pretty watertight.

This is where I start to get headaches.

Let me point a few things out for viewing pleasure.

Page 24- A company consists of a number of loose models arranged on a rectangular base or movement tray.
Page 24- A tray and all models on it, are treated as a single entity for the purposes of the rules.
Page 24- A single monster is considered to be a company unto itself....no trays are required for them.

Now I also found this:
Pg 40, under the hope is lost! box- Note that MONSTERS ARE ONLY EVER FIELDED AS SINGLE MODELS. Hence why they ignore the rules for Hope is Lost!

So, while the way the mumak is described as per its unit entry in the army list, it is a monster, and therefore may, as per page 40, ONLY EVER be fielded as a single model.

So the mumak is a single model. It is a monster and as per the rules (pg 40), monsters may only ever be fielded as a single model. This is where the crew come into play. Since they have not unit type we must assume they in essence are part of the mumak model. Because there cannot be a company of multiple unit types (exception is hero and cavalry or hero and infantry), as it would completely violate the games rules. This is OBVIOUSLY the intention, as the mumak crew are the ONLY entry in the entire book that have no unit type. Only being the key word. They also have no resilience or defense. They cannot be targeted. EVER. They just die when the mumak takes hits.

Now I will admit I don't see explicitly where it says single model formations cannot have an epic hero, although I'm sure it is somewhere to be found. However, on page 68 there is an entire box dedicated to explaining why a hero can be either cavalry or infantry. It does not mention monsters.



And for good reason! The minute I see someone Trying to place A ringwraith on top of their Balrog I will take a hammer to it and burn the pieces. NO NO NO NO NO. Its not allowed, and doesn't make an ounce of sense.

Edit: Haha Reinholt you beat me to it.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 19:45
In the grey Formation info box for all single model monsters

Rare Formation
Single model.

However in the grey Formation info box for the Mumak

Rare Formation
One company comprising a Mumak and thirteen crew.

It quite clearly states that it consists of a company. Now it states in the Command Companies section

The command company is the first company in a formation

Now show me where it says Epic Heroes can't join Companies.

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 19:46
See the big red letters above. please. pretty please. Say no to Mumak-riding Epic heroes and you save a small child holding an adorable kitten.

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 20:00
And for good reason! The minute I see someone Trying to place A ringwraith on top of their Balrog I will take a hammer to it and burn the pieces. NO NO NO NO NO. Its not allowed, and doesn't make an ounce of sense.

You're not going to be happy when I show up at the store with the Betrayer glued to the back of Buhrdur, are you?

;)

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 20:09
I'll be okay only if I can glue my Ringwraiths to my 3 khandish Charioteers haha

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 20:10
pg 40, under the hope is lost! Box- note that monsters are only ever fielded as single models. Hence why they ignore the rules for hope is lost!

then what are the thirteen crew and why is the mumak a company?

How do you propose to "remove" a model from a single model?

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 20:24
I'm simply quoting the rules.

Obviously there is some bad wording thrown around in the book. But I think it would be much more correct to follow the passage quoted in the rules section rather than a sentence under the mumak entry that seems to contradict it.

What leads me to believe this further is that the mumak crew have no separate resilience of defense value, as well as no unit type. They are the only entry in the entire book without a unit type listed.

Therefore, since monsters may only be fielded as single models and the mumak is indeed a monster, the crew must not count as models in the sense used throughout the book. Yes they are physically "models" that are removed, however since according to the rules if they are anything other than a system by which the mumak is wounded/stempedes/shoots they would be unable to ride the mumak, they must not count as models in the sense of other models in the game such as infantry, cavalry, monsters, etc.

If a player really wants to play that the mumak and crew are a company that can be joined by an epic hero, fine. I will reduce it to half strength and it will die, earning me an easy kill. Said player will not be able to argue that the "Hope is lost!" rule does not apply to the mumak since it is a monster, as that would invalidate the interpretation they made saying it is not a monster (because according to the rules a monster must be fielded as a single model). Then I will proceed not to play said player again.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 20:54
It is actually worth noting that it never specifies that Epic Heroes can't join Monster Formations - it is only implied in the section

You may never have more Epic Heroes in a company than that company has 'normal' warriors (i.e. not Heroes or upgrades of any kind).

As a Monster is normally only a single model, yet also still a Formation and Company (p24) an Epic Hero can't join it. The Mumak however has a Mumak plus 13 crew, as the crew are neither Heroes or upgrades the Epic Hero replaces one of them as long as there are at least 2 (or 1 with the Epic Hero).

So there is no conflict with the Mumak's Monster rules and those which allow Epic Heroes.

Reinholt
20-04-2009, 21:16
The Mumak is still only a single model.

Look at the unit profile. It's the Mumak, listed first, with a unit type. The crew, listed second, have no unit type.

So first of all, if you are interpreting all formations to have a command company, your command company is the Mumak; it's the first thing listed. Thus, if an Epic Hero can join the Mumak, an Epic Hero can join other monsters, since it's literally joining the monstrous Mumak itself, not the crew, as the command company.

Second, there are a number of conflicts that people have brought up with joining heroes to Monsters (no normal warriors in the monster itself, no command company - which you seem adamantly against, even though it exempts monsters from the entire company / formation section on p34, no reference to heroes joining monsters anywhere in the book where it is explicitly specified they can join both cavalry and infantry).

The answer is no, and I'm done arguing this, as I'm getting the sense you are either a troll or illiterate, neither of which makes for a reasonable discussion.

Fin.

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 21:32
The Mumak is still only a single model.
I think you are completely incorrect. I think it is impossible for members of a "single model" to be separately slain. I think being a company indicates this sufficiently. I think the fact that the crew members can be individually slain indicates this. Any other idea seems patently false to me.


The answer is no, and I'm done arguing this, as I'm getting the sense you are either a troll or illiterate, neither of which makes for a reasonable discussion.
Your attitude, insults and ad hominem attacks do not make for a reasonable discussion. Perhaps it is time you let cooler heads prevail in this matter.

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 21:45
It is actually worth noting that it never specifies that Epic Heroes can't join Monster Formations - it is only implied in the section


As a Monster is normally only a single model, yet also still a Formation and Company (p24) an Epic Hero can't join it. The Mumak however has a Mumak plus 13 crew, as the crew are neither Heroes or upgrades the Epic Hero replaces one of them as long as there are at least 2 (or 1 with the Epic Hero).

So there is no conflict with the Mumak's Monster rules and those which allow Epic Heroes.

No but let me say again. Pg 40 it states that monsters may only ever be fielded as single models. So either a mumak is not a monster or it is a single model. Since it says unit type: Monster for the mumak entry that makes the latter impossible. It does not say monsters are normally only single models.

It is not impossible. If a single model has multiple parts, as I would say the mumak has, the parts may be removed without violating any logic. I do not count the crew as models as defined in the rules, as they do not have characteristics (unit type) to satisfy the definition.

The crew members are individually slain but cannot be targeted. Their deaths are a by-product of shooting a the mumak...a monster...and therefore a single model as explicitly stated in the rules on pg 40.

Rirekon
20-04-2009, 21:45
So first of all, if you are interpreting all formations to have a command company, your command company is the Mumak; it's the first thing listed.
No, the command company is the Mumak and 13 crew, as specified by the Formation info box.


Thus, if an Epic Hero can join the Mumak, an Epic Hero can join other monsters, since it's literally joining the monstrous Mumak itself, not the crew, as the command company.
You're right, Epic Heroes can join Monsters as long as there are not more Heroes than normal warriors in the company - as specified on 68 and quoted by me just above you.


Second, there are a number of conflicts that people have brought up with joining heroes to Monsters (no normal warriors in the monster itself, no command company - which you seem adamantly against, even though it exempts monsters from the entire company / formation section on p34, no reference to heroes joining monsters anywhere in the book where it is explicitly specified they can join both cavalry and infantry).
Where on p34 are you reading? The section I can see on Monsters says

Remember that unlike other companies, monsters, such as Mordor Trolls, are mounted on circular bases and therefore need not worry about corners - etc
No mention of them being exempt there, in fact it mentions that they are a company! There is no explicit exemption anywhere, only an implicit one as they are normally only a single model.


The answer is no, and I'm done arguing this, as I'm getting the sense you are either a troll or illiterate, neither of which makes for a reasonable discussion.
I am neither, I have quoted pertinent sections for and so have others. Stubborn I may be, but I am more than willing to accept other possibilities if evidence is provided (Sarah S has beaten me over the head previously ;)). Seriously, please quote the sections you are refering to which explicitly state that Epic Heroes cannot join Monsters, I can't find any.


No but let me say again. Pg 40 it states that monsters may only ever be fielded as single models. So either a mumak is not a monster or it is a single model. Since it says unit type: Monster for the mumak entry that makes the latter impossible. It does not say monsters are normally only single models.
So you won't accept that an individual entry with special rules can't override the core rules? I don't want to sound snide but how do you handle this everywhere else with GW systems? It says the Mumak is a Monster and it also states it has multiple models, obviously that statement (not rule) can't apply to it.

Babolat360
20-04-2009, 21:53
Absolutely ridiculous - there is no way anyone playing me would get away with putting an epic hero on a mumak. The rules are quite clear and it's just stupid to even think for a second that the writers of this fine rulebook would create a rule to allow the creation of epic hero+monster death combos. CRAZINESS!!!!:mad:

Example 1:

Saruman riding Mumak. Blessing of the Valar

Example 2:

Amdur riding Mumak. Epic rampage

Top marks for game balance....

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 22:00
Rirekon:

Pg 40, under the Hope is lost! section.

As Follows:

"Note that as monsters are only ever fielded as single models..."

So even if elsewhere it does not prevent monsters from being other than single model units, it says there that they are only ever fielded as such. So explicitly and implicitly monsters must be single model units.

Now i propose that the wording under the mumak entry be errata'ed so that there is no confusion.

Now, as to say a hero can join any monster? I do not see an explicit place saying no, however, there is a box explaining how they can be infantry or cavarly in the same game, just use two different models,etc. It seems more than obvious that the intent is that monsters may not be joined by epic heroes.

Where would you even put the hero? It has no spot to go to on the model.

Again, I would advise by the spirit of the game rules found on pg 44 (they talk about charging but make a statement about the rules in general and playing for fun not for loopholes).

Let it go everyone, its not fun and not the way it was meant to be.


Edit: Babolat, how about a ringwraith and one? Technically you could have 6 on there by that interpretation. And if you say it also does not die if reduced to half strength? 6 mastery 3 casters riding a giant monster with a 365 line of sight as well as an elevated position moving 3d6 a turn.

And I am a FR player so I can very easily field such a formation if i wanted to.

Jorgen_CAB
20-04-2009, 22:24
As long as the developer states in an FAQ that it is possible to join a hero to a Mumak i would never play against someone that tries to pull that stunt. Could be very abusive indeed.

Then again, the statement about that a Monster can only be single models are quite absolute. You can't break that rule with any logic in the world. Either a Mumak is a monster and in that case a single model. The entry on the Mumak clearly defines it as a Monster.

Since a monster base may only have ONE model on it, an Epic Hero can never join it. If you joined the Hero to the Monster, then there would be two models on the base, that are against the rules. See page 40 for reference.

It is also quite clear that Epic Heroes join either Infantry or Cavalry when you read the gray box on page 68.

The Crew are neither Infantry nor Cavalry, they are part of the Mumak model which only count as ONE model per the rules on page 40.
On page 24 they state that some monsters are so huge that they them selves can be defined as a company, but they also state that they are single models.

Once again, the crew is nothing more than a mechanism to make the Mumak a very special piece of equipment to use on the battlefield. It is a single model and counts as a Monster.

The conclusion is that an Epic Hero can never join it.

The gray box on page 198 only state how many crew are to be placed on the monster since this is used as a pool to calculate the number of shooting attacks and when you roll to control the beast. I really don't understand why this is so hard to grasp, really?!?

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 22:41
Since a monster base may only have ONE model on it, an Epic Hero can never join it. If you joined the Hero to the Monster, then there would be two models on the base, that are against the rules. See page 40 for reference.

Then there can never be crew members on it that can be "slain."

dtjunkie19
20-04-2009, 22:48
Yes you can. As they are not models in the way the game defines them. Because they have no unit type

Jorgen_CAB
20-04-2009, 22:48
Then there can never be crew members on it that can be "slain."

There can be a crew, because that is a special rule for calculating number of shooting attacks and controlling the beast.
The crew are part of ONE single model. See them as a pool of numbers if you wish. You never fire at the crew, you fire at the Mumak. One of the results is that its pool are reduced and it become harder to control and gain fewer attacks, the crew is just an extension of that rule and a simplification to its logic.

You must understand this, yes??

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 22:54
I don't think unit type is determinative of model...

They have all the other requisite statistics - just as many, if not more than Epic Heroes do - they can shoot and they can be slain independently.

Hell, model isn't even a defined term in this game. Company is, and companies are composed of multiple models.

Jorgen_CAB
20-04-2009, 23:02
Hell, model isn't even a defined term in this game. Company is, and companies are composed of multiple models.
Not always, look at page 24, about monsters.

How do you explain the rule on page 40 that says that Monster are only fielded as a single model. there are never more than only one model if it is defined as a monster. The crew are nothing... they are just a mechanism for the Mumak nothing more...

To me it seems like you are just arguing for the sake of the argument... you must surely understand that the Mumak only count as one single model, because it can't be fielded as anything but.

Mumak and crew count as ONE model, that's it!!!

Sarah S
20-04-2009, 23:07
I would reply, how do you explain the unit entry of the Mumak describing it as a company of 1 Mumak and 13 crew members?

And the crew are much more than just a wound token mechanism. GW already designed a perfectly functionable wound token mechanism for monsters and used it for every other monster in the book. The crew on the Mumak can shoot and have stats like every other formation in the game.

Axis
20-04-2009, 23:27
I would reply, how do you explain the unit entry of the Mumak describing it as a company of 1 Mumak and 13 crew members?

And the crew are much more than just a wound token mechanism. GW already designed a perfectly functionable wound token mechanism for monsters and used it for every other monster in the book. The crew on the Mumak can shoot and have stats like every other formation in the game.

Unlike other monsters the mumak is different. No other monsters have crew. They had the crew (and wound counters) instead of just wound counters to make it feel more like in the movies. Trolls, balrogs, dragons... none of these have crew. If you look at the rules for the mumak it takes a whole page so it isn't surprising people are confused because it has complicated rules.

Someone raised the objection that the rules say how a epic hero can join infantry and cavalry but that it says nothing about monsters. A lot of people seem to be ignoring this and placing a spurious argument about companies in the way. People try and get by this objection by saying that it doesn't say anything that rules out an epic hero joining a mumak, that since it is omitted it must be allowed. That is quite odd! There are quite explicit rules about epic heroes moving between infantry and cavalry but monsters are never mentioned. I think you have to explain why this is the case if you want to argue that an epic hero can join a mumak.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 08:19
There are clarifications about moving between infantry and cavalry, the actual rules for character movement (and joining "units") only refer to companies and formations.

Jorgen_CAB
21-04-2009, 12:07
Once more...

The rule say on page 24 that a Monster can be declared as a company, that is true. But they also state in the same sentence that it is one individual. You may call it a command company or whatever, it does not matter.

On page 40 they more clearly state that Monsters are ever only fielded as one single model. You can never ever break this rule, thus the Mumak and its 13 crew member is regarded as one model, period. You can't rules layering around this, the rule is absolute and can never be broken.

If the Mumak crew is reduced to 10, the Mumak as a company are still only one Model/individual...

No matter what you say about it being a company you can never join a hero to it because it can only hold one model.

Spider-pope
21-04-2009, 12:29
I cant see either side agreeing until its FAQ'ed. As for my own opinion i'd say you cant, but i'd still play someone claiming otherwise, as long as they remove the Mumakil entirely once i kill 7 of its crew. Seems fair to me.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 12:53
On page 40 they more clearly state that Monsters are ever only fielded as one single model. You can never ever break this rule, thus the Mumak and its 13 crew member is regarded as one model, period. You can't rules layering around this, the rule is absolute and can never be broken.

Where does it say rules can't be broken/overridden by "unit" rules? Having units override normal rules is par for the course.
I would also like to point out that the section of the rule you are quoting is a qualifier to the actual rule, not a rule in it self.

Llew
21-04-2009, 12:56
I think Spider-pope has stumbled on to the best clarifiying issue. If a Mumakil is a company, then the rules about the last company getting to half strength or below would apply.

I think we can all agree that that is probably *not* what was intended. I would suspect that the references to the Mumakil and crew being a company are most likely a typo or mis-statement, rather than adding a way for heroes to ride them.

Spider-pope
21-04-2009, 14:26
To be fair, i was just repeating a comment made earlier in the thread. But i think the point still stands. You cant pick and choose what part of rules apply to you and which dont.
So if a Mumakil counts as a company for the purposes of Heroes joining it, then it should count as a company when its reduced to half strength.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 14:46
I think Spider-pope has stumbled on to the best clarifiying issue. If a Mumakil is a company, then the rules about the last company getting to half strength or below would apply.

I think we can all agree that that is probably *not* what was intended. I would suspect that the references to the Mumakil and crew being a company are most likely a typo or mis-statement, rather than adding a way for heroes to ride them.

Except that the formation info box (the grey one at the top right of the entry) specifies that it's a company of 1 Mumak and 13 crew, which is a pretty precise typo and lengthy given that no other Monster is listed in anyway even approaching this.


To be fair, i was just repeating a comment made earlier in the thread. But i think the point still stands. You cant pick and choose what part of rules apply to you and which dont.
So if a Mumakil counts as a company for the purposes of Heroes joining it, then it should count as a company when its reduced to half strength.

To repeat this again;
Monsters are Companies, the only thing which stops Epic Heroes from joining non-Mumak Monsters is the fact that you can't have more Epic Heroes in a Company than "normal warriors".
As most Monsters are single models it's impossible to replace it with an Epic Hero and still have "normal warriors" in the Company.
The Mumak is a Monster (as detailed in it's unit listing) however it also has more than 1 model (14 to be precise, 1 Mumak and 13 crew). This allows you to place the Epic Hero in the company by replacing 1 of the crew - as long as you meet the previously mentioned "normal warriors" limitation. As it's still a Monster it's also immune to All Hope is Lost.

The only conflict (presented so far) is that All Hope is Lost claims that "as Monsters are only ever field as single models" (I think that's right, from memory). However as this is a qualifier for why All Hope is Lost doesn't apply to Monsters rather than a rule it self it doesn't really cause an issue.

Marauder
21-04-2009, 16:18
I can't see how combining the Mumak with an Epic Hero would be a good thing for the game overall. I don't imagine people are thinking of any good "themed" combinations here, just game breaking gouda.

Someone in the "epics on mumak" camp, please tell me how to resolve a heroic duel called against the epic on the mumak. Would the hits on the formation go onto the "crew" or onto the mumak itself?

The Muster of Rohan
21-04-2009, 16:29
Page 198: "The crew never fight in the fight phase."

If, as arguments here are supposing, an Epic Hero can join a Mumak (for the record, I think that the rules support it, but that it's a fairly useless move - it would only be truly worthwhile with some of the Ulairi, and they're best used elsewhere) then he becomes one of the crew, and so cannot fight in the fight phase. That includes Heroic Duels.

Rirekon
21-04-2009, 16:42
I can't see how combining the Mumak with an Epic Hero would be a good thing for the game overall. I don't imagine people are thinking of any good "themed" combinations here, just game breaking gouda.

Someone in the "epics on mumak" camp, please tell me how to resolve a heroic duel called against the epic on the mumak. Would the hits on the formation go onto the "crew" or onto the mumak itself?

As with all damage it would apply to the Mumak and then be rolled on it's Very Hard To Kill table.

With regards to why you would put an Epic on a Mumak... The Easterling seems like a good option, and even works fluff wise ;)

The Muster of Rohan
21-04-2009, 16:53
As with all damage it would apply to the Mumak and then be rolled on it's Very Hard To Kill table.

With regards to why you would put an Epic on a Mumak... The Easterling seems like a good option, and even works fluff wise ;)

I really don't think so. I refer again to the quote from page 198.

Khamul would be okay, but not particularly "fluffy" (Valar, how I hate that word!) Khamul the Easterling on a War Mumak of Harad, the lands to the South of Gondor...?

ThrowN
21-04-2009, 17:26
I resisted to join the discussion for a while, I hate ruletweakers and WAAC players. There are quite some good points on the con side, while the only "pro" mentioned again and again seems to be the description of the "mumak company=mumak+13 warriors".

But can someone please explain to me (rules quote), how, if joining a company of the type "monster" (crew are "-", which is btw already a good contra on its own) the WAAC-player is allowed to choose which of the models he replaces with the hero ?

In your search you will probably stumble about the "Epic Hero" entry (~p. 68) where it says he can join a formation, replacing one generic warrior in the command company
From here on, take a look at our hybrid company consisting of the entry "monster" and the entry "-". This gives us to two different unit types and no obvious rule which one is the generic. There is no rule that the monster is less generic than the "-" or that 1 to 13 is already "generic" in gaming terms. Sincere there is no such rule this results in 2 possible outcomes.
a) There is no such rule clearly allowing it. What do we normally do, if there isn't a rule that clearly allows something in the game to be done? We don't do it. Because it's not part of the rulesystem we're playing. Just like in about every other game of the world. But let's stick to WoTR. Example (not the best, but it serves the purpose) of what a lack of rules means: There are clear rules how I role to hit. However, There is no rule that specifically prevents me from rerolling the dice. Its not specifically allowed, too. Damn. So we stick to the things that are specifically allowed. Roling the dice once.

b) You don't like a)? So you probably want to discuss the "generic" warrior issue. Okay, you're only argument ist 13 crew to 1 mumak (if you come in with "cause it doesn't work otherwise with the rules since I get a company with "-" except F,A,C,M please reread a)) Still you might want to claim 13 to 1 for you, right? Mmmh, if you want to determine "generic" rulewise take a look a the rulebook. About 108 entries (not counting entrys without the equivalent of a captain, i.e. monsters, werewolfs, etc.) that show us: The generic warrior of a formation is the part of the entry with a completed profil (with only might and maybe the shooting value missing. The rest is everything else, but not "generic". Back to the Mumak entry, to our biggest suprise we will se that the "generic" part of the Mumak entry has to be the Mumak. 109 to 13 by just sticking closely to the written/given ruleset. If you 're still not satisfied, you might want to say "the Mumak entry is an exception". Good, maybe. But show me where I can find the rule for this exception. My question in the beginning. Otherwise stick to a)

Honestly, in a tourney, the moment you place your epic hero on the Mumak, I'd call the judge, say that you've won with a massacre, head to the bar and enjoy the next 2 hours, cause you will probably want to reroll your roles to hit, too, just because it isn't specifically prohibited in the ruleset.

Heve fun, I'm off for some training, need to rebalance my Qi...

dtjunkie19
22-04-2009, 02:11
@ Rirekon

I believe you are missing the point.

The words on page 40 are clear. monsters are only ever fielded as single models.

Okay so thats point A, ok?

A = true, because it says so explicitly in the rules on page 40. The are no exceptions otherwise it would have to say so on pg 40 or under the mumak's rules, saying something explicit like: The mumak ignores normal rules for a monster it is not a single model.

The mumak is a monster, thats point b.

B = true, because in the mumak's unit entry it says unit type "monster".

Single models cannot be joined by epic heroes, thats point c.

c = true because it is stated in the rules.

If A && B && C = true



It has no bearing whether or not its unit entry says 13, 14, or 456789043 models. Because if B then A. And if A then C. So then we get If B then C.

The mumak may not be joined by epic heroes.

@ ThrowN


very well good points!

Hoster
22-04-2009, 20:52
I feel, like many parts of the Rulebook, that the Mumak rules were either last minute or not properly playtested. Parts of the entry contradict other rules, which is fine, but clarification should be given as to how to apply rules that overwrite others.

Don't forget to shoot in the Shoot.

stiggie
24-04-2009, 15:56
lol keeping it simple..

epic heroes can only join command companies..

where in mumak stats does it say "command"?

if you look at all the other formations.. if it has a "command" company it says..

being honest you have more chance of a character joining a troll.. it follows the same theory..

page 24 bottom right "some individual monsters are so large that a single monster is considered to be a company by itself"

a troll is a monster?

Billpete002
25-04-2009, 14:03
I went to my GW today and talked with several of the red shirts who are really into this - I gave both sides of the argument and we even went through different scenarios. From what we could read it seems legal. Now before everyone on the other side jumps around like apes in a zoo with "they are only red shirts" bit - yeah exactly they are, but they run games and have to know the rules and I know both of them and they are pretty good at rulings that are 'unclear'.

All that said here was one of their arguments: sure you can take a epic hero in a mumak BUT it frankly makes the mumak weaker than it already is - in a epic dual against Gil-Galad (for example) the mumak would get trashed. Also, the amount of units you have to kill to slay the character + mumak is not very much.

I also asked about the 7 rule to take away this is where there was disagreement - the Mumak gains wounds counters per loss of crew this is perhaps where the argument breaks down for allowing a epic hero as well. Since you do not normally remove the mumak for half wounds (and make the hard to kill table it has irrelevant).

So it really comes down to this (and it has been said here before) epic heroes can be used on a mumak currently because it is a formation and the first formation is a command group. The mumak is possibly removed after 7 wounds (unclear bit), the hero does gain poison attacks.

Games between friends ask before use (common sense), tournaments: ask the tournament organizers before hand and plan ahead.

Till there is a FAQ (like has already been mentioned) this will be a "hot" topic, much like epic rampage with Dain/Aragorn/Legolas and not having to roll gag going around - despite the author of the book saying that you must always roll for hits and that a roll of a 1 always fails. So why not just use common sense and ask before hand - it works for 40k and Fantasy.

my .01 cent

dtjunkie19
25-04-2009, 15:30
Billpete, let's not engage the topic again. Your redshirts said it would be legal, but at the same time the ones at my LGS laughed and said hell no. Indeed it should be FAQ'ed only so people don't have to argue over it.

I hate to sound like a repeater crossbow (;)) but on page 40 it states that monsters are only ever fielded as single models. The Mumak is a monster. So then a mumak must only be a single model formation.

By your logic, since the mumak is always a 1 company formation than it always runs away after killing 7 crew whether a hero is there or not. That would completely invalidate the ridiculously hard to kill table as you could never get a 15+ without already having more than 7 wound counters (dead crew).

ThrowN
25-04-2009, 16:05
I went to my GW today and talked with several of the red shirts who are really into this - I gave both sides of the argument and we even went through different scenarios. From what we could read it seems legal. Now before everyone on the other side jumps around like apes in a zoo with "they are only red shirts" bit - yeah exactly they are, but they run games and have to know the rules and I know both of them and they are pretty good at rulings that are 'unclear'.
Before you get me wrong, I'm sitting calm in front of my PC. Might do the jump like an ape thing afterwards, but right now, I'm sitting. But kind of makes me want to visit a zoo again.
Let me just point out 2 things:
- Red-Shirt-said is indeed no argument. That's what we've got rules for. Same goes for any other people except the game designers themselves.
- Ruling (in your own place/store/etc.) is not the same as proper argumentation, which would be needed to transfer your ruling into a commonly accepted rule



I also asked about the 7 rule to take away this is where there was disagreement - the Mumak gains wounds counters per loss of crew this is perhaps where the argument breaks down for allowing a epic hero as well. Since you do not normally remove the mumak for half wounds (and make the hard to kill table it has irrelevant).
And this didn't make you wonder just a little bit?



So it really comes down to this (and it has been said here before) epic heroes can be used on a mumak currently because it is a formation and the first formation is a command group. The mumak is possibly removed after 7 wounds (unclear bit), the hero does gain poison attacks.
Little doubt with the company thing, but please check my last post, why it doesn't come down to the company issue. It involves the term "generic warrior" and some other things, too. And, at least how I read your post, you haven't found an answer for that. BTW, none of those yes-sayers in this thread has found one yet.



Games between friends ask before use (common sense), tournaments: ask the tournament organizers before hand and plan ahead.
Agreed. but dont forget option c) don't search for ruleholes/don't lose your sportmanship/don't ruin your oponents enjoyment of the game by forcing him into stupid argumentation. Why? - because the clear parts of the rules still give you a lot of options to write a hard as rock list and allow you enough tactical tricks to win the game. Argumentation of things during the game is normal, but writing a list with rule argumentation already in mind->:wtf:
At least thats how I write my list and play my games.



Till there is a FAQ (like has already been mentioned) this will be a "hot" topic, much like epic rampage with Dain/Aragorn/Legolas and not having to roll gag going around - despite the author of the book saying that you must always roll for hits and that a roll of a 1 always fails. So why not just use common sense and ask before hand - it works for 40k and Fantasy.[/b]


my .01 cent
- Common sense in game terms would be that some things, though not explicitly forbidden, would still need a rule to be explicitly allowed.
- Asking is a rather vague thing if its not the game designers themselves. And some red shirts in some distant corner of the world isn't exactly the one I'd ask when I can make an argumentation with only my rulebook as a source.
- You, somehow, answer the Aragon issue by your rules quote...:confused:
- Agreed, FAQ is needed. Cause there are enough people you can out-argue who still say "no" (or in this case, "yes").:rolleyes:



Don't get me wrong if I sound too harsh, I noway want to attack you and apologies if you felt attack while reading my answer. Matter of fact, I thank you for going there, asking the guys and then sharing your information. Its just that information, i.e. the red shirts' argumentation, that seems rather weak. Though I understand them, as they want a good atmosphere in the store (so they don't solve problems with long discussions, its their "house" with their "houserules") and they want to sell thier products, prefereable 1 Mumaks, not 1 paint pot. But I prefer argumentation with the written rules to back it up instead of "someone said its simply like that"

Reinholt
25-04-2009, 16:54
I suppose my final piece of advice will be this:

When there is a rules question, discuss it beforehand, and try to take the path that offers you the least personal benefit.

Why?

Because you won't poison your reputation that way. I never have trouble finding games, and people seem to enjoy playing with me (those poor, sick bastards). Conversely, we have some rules lawyers at our local shop who have a much harder time finding games (if they can find them at all); I don't mean rules lawyers in the sense of "play by the rules" (I am adamantly against both cheating and just making <expletive deleted> up), but in the sense of "argue minutia to achieve any tiny advantage they can get in a game and thus make the engagement not fun for the other person, as well as tend to be disproportionately sore losers".

With all that said, I still don't think you can do it, and I haven't seen a sound argument that you can. You can fixate on one box to the left of the unit entry and ignore several pages of rules elsewhere in the book to try to argue it, but nowhere has anyone referenced a section saying that Epic Heroes can ever join a monster.

No.

spiderman5z
18-06-2010, 07:51
It doesn't matter if it's legal or not. If you put Khamul on a mumak you lose all your friends and nobody will ever want to play with you again. So don't do it!

metalloveman
19-06-2010, 04:48
say no to the khamulmakil. The only reason i would ever take one is so i could say khamulmakil

TheOniwaban
13-07-2010, 02:07
I would bring the Khamulmakil just for the /laffs, then Immediately put it away because it is a retarded notion of epic heroes joining single models. =3

HRM
13-07-2010, 13:01
This whole thing reminds me of the "Good allying with Evil" argument in the Rules forum. Anyone who would argue for either of these scenarios is a jackass, end of story.

The Irregulars
14-07-2010, 09:39
An epic hero can't join a Mumak. Page 198 says: "One company comprising of a Mūmak and thirteen crew". So the rules for (command) companies do not apply for several reasons.

- A normal company consists of 8 (infantry) or 2 (cavalry) figures. Here we have a special company of thirteen figures.

- The bestiary rules do not mention the purchase of command figures.

- Given the special character of the single model, it moves and shoots with different rules.

- There are no examples of such an extraordinary setting in 'official' tournaments.

- To allow an epic hero on a Mumāk will 'stretch' the rules exceptionally. I don't think the writers of the WotR rules book would have allowed this.

Jobu
14-07-2010, 13:11
That is all true, BUT you get to say "Khamulmakil" during play, which in and of itself should make it legal.

:)


An epic hero can't join a Mumak. Page 198 says: "One company comprising of a Mūmak and thirteen crew". So the rules for (command) companies do not apply for several reasons.

- A normal company consists of 8 (infantry) or 2 (cavalry) figures. Here we have a special company of thirteen figures.

- The bestiary rules do not mention the purchase of command figures.

- Given the special character of the single model, it moves and shoots with different rules.

- There are no examples of such an extraordinary setting in 'official' tournaments.

- To allow an epic hero on a Mumāk will 'stretch' the rules exceptionally. I don't think the writers of the WotR rules book would have allowed this.

AlphariusOmegon20
09-08-2010, 18:07
then what are the thirteen crew and why is the mumak a company?

How do you propose to "remove" a model from a single model?


*sigh* they're "wound counters" for lack of a better term. They serve little purpose other than to keep track of the wounds the Mumak took in previous turns.

Did no one catch that?

The final answer is NO, EPIC HEROES CAN NOT JOIN A MUMAK. YOU CAN NOT JOIN A MONSTER, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT IT TO BE SO.