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Rich
04-05-2005, 11:07
The fighters and bombers in the BFG game are supposed to be the size of jumbo jets - but surely such planes need runways about half a kilometer long in order to take off from (which I somehow doubt that a three kilometer long carrier has). In addition, if each carrier has 40 of these behemoths, how are they possibly stored whilst maintaining structural integrity and specifically being able to withstand the kind of pounding that Imperial capital ships can take. It seems to me that the carrier vessels just dont make much sence!

I don't have a brilliant understanding of the way current carriers work, so possibly someone in the know can help? I know that British carriers (really helicopter carriers) use VSTOL jets so that only a short 'ski-jump' runway is needed - could this be the answer? I guess some kind of high-tech catapolt could be used, but I'm not so sure.

worldshatterer
04-05-2005, 11:16
I thought the fighter and bombers in bfg were lightnings, thunderbolts etc? all of these see usage in 40k via forgeworld and are definitely not jumbojet sized.

in space taking off isn't a problem you don't need a runway to pick up speed, you just turn of gravity in the launch bay and the ships can make it out under their own power, or have an elevator to take them to the ships hull and launch straight from that into space . Think Babylon 5 or Space Above and Beyond for the kind of launches i'm getting at .

Rich
04-05-2005, 11:26
I thought the fighter and bombers in bfg were lightnings, thunderbolts etc? all of these see usage in 40k via forgeworld and are definitely not jumbojet sized.

The lightnings and thunderbolts are athmospheric craft - they don't really have the range to cover the thousands of kilometers that BFG fighters/bombers have to on a single attack. Whilst conventional fighter craft in 40k are capable of space flight, they just aren't designed for it really. Back when BFG was released, Mr Chambers said that the fighters and bombers in the game are more the size of jumbo jets - these things have whole banks of lascannon, missile launchers and the like, not just a couple of paired autocannons like thunderbolts.

Basically though, its a matter of range and being able to travel far enough (and fast enough) in zero G to actually get to the target - and bombers have to be massive to be able to carry the big anti-ship missiles that they carry.

Sojourner
04-05-2005, 20:09
Ask the question back to yourself. What would happen if, in space, you didn't have an enormous runway?

Nothing. The craft just ambles out fairly slowly.

Honestly, you had to ask?

Rich
04-05-2005, 20:14
Ask the question back to yourself. What would happen if, in space, you didn't have an enormous runway?

Nothing. The craft just ambles out fairly slowly.

Honestly, you had to ask?

Theres still the question of how you fit eighty fighters and bombers the size of jumbo jets into a carrier vessel only three kilometers long, with most of that three kilometers being taken up by engines, gun emplacements and the rest. These ships cant be more than a kilometer wide, and the planes must take up a hell of a lot of room.

Bruen
04-05-2005, 20:34
Theres still the question of how you fit eighty fighters and bombers the size of jumbo jets into a carrier vessel only three kilometers long, with most of that three kilometers being taken up by engines, gun emplacements and the rest. These ships cant be more than a kilometer wide, and the planes must take up a hell of a lot of room.

They do not necessarily have to go inside, they could be stored on the outside with clamps to hold them on and airlocks leading to the cabin for the crew.

Puffin Magician
04-05-2005, 20:56
In space taking off isn't a problem you don't need a runway to pick up speed, you just turn of gravity in the launch bay and the ships can make it out under their own power... Think Babylon 5 or Space Above and Beyond for the kind of launches i'm getting at.
I was about to say... The spacecraft really only need a small kick out the doors thanks to their thrusters, and fly off under their own power. Again, in Zero-G environments you don't have to "take off" because once you're away from the ship you are already spaceborne.


Theres still the question of how you fit eighty fighters and bombers the size of jumbo jets into a carrier vessel only three kilometers long, with most of that three kilometers being taken up by engines, gun emplacements and the rest. These ships cant be more than a kilometer wide, and the planes must take up a hell of a lot of room.

I'd imagine, like all aircraft carriers, the planes are bunched up as tightly as possible [surely you've seen aerial shots of American carriers], and remember the BFG Carrier also has a thickness, able to 'stack' their landing/storage areas on top of one another. Airpots are quite adept at cramming a whole lot of huge jets into a small space, the innards of a BFG ship are likely similar to that, on a larger scale.

Cpl. Calvin
04-05-2005, 21:39
A 747 measures about 65m by 70m. So a 2 wide by 10 long arrangement only measures 650m x 150m. Stack two of those and you have 40 bombers in a 650m x 150m x 50m box in the belly of something 3000m x 500m x 1000m. Seems feasible to me if that is the purpose the vessel was designed for. I seem to remember that carriers are not big on ship to ship armament.

inquisitorautry
05-05-2005, 00:45
Also, most of the width of a jumbo jet is due to it's wings (actually almost all of it's width is wings) which aren't really necessary in space. They would probably have short stubby wings mearly to hold more armaments, but that's about all that would be necessary.

KhornateLord
05-05-2005, 02:57
Okay, from the books etc fighters and bombers are projected out with some kind of gravity force field, giving them a kick out the door, and catching them as they come back. Gravity something clamp? can't remember the exact name.

Space fights can be squat and dense, rather than streamlined and aerodynamic. Also capital ships have many layers and decks on top of each other.

Typically they have removed the many macrocannons/plasma blasters wahtever from the ship, so they should use less energy/require less space for ammunition/guns/batteries (for power) high density pwer cabling, and reactors.

I think its possible.

Getz
05-05-2005, 03:27
This (http://www.merzo.net/) website actually enables you to compare the actual size of a jumbo jet with the stated size of some BFG ship. However, when you realise that a Cobra Class Destroyer is about the same size as an Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars it becomes much less of a mystery as to how they can fit Jumbo sized bombers into their holds.

Iracundus
05-05-2005, 05:02
That Cobra is 3 times too long. The common consensus is about 500m for the escort ships.

milmot
05-05-2005, 08:46
As have been said previously:

1. no gravity, so no need for a runway.
2. BFG ships are several stories high, then can have several hangers on top of each other
3. fighters and bombers dont really need wings that take up all that space. in addition, if they did, they can always be folded up - like modem day planes

Sai-Lauren
05-05-2005, 09:22
The fighters and bombers in the BFG game are supposed to be the size of jumbo jets
Main point I wanted to comment on - aren't the models for the fighters etc smaller than the thunderhawk model for BFG - of course this is assuming all the fighters are in scale to each other.

Anyway, how do they launch? Repulsorlifts to get them off the deck and then main thrusters to get out the hanger (bombers), catapults (either huge tunnels like Battlestar Galatica or small clamp and launching platforms like the cobra bays on B5) (fighters, especialliy interceptors), hanging on the outside and dropping off when needed and so on.

A 747 needs a long runway to get sufficient lift from the wings to counteract gravty (the Bernouli effect IIRC) - it wouldn't need to do that in space where there's no gravity (and of course no air ;)).

devolutionary
05-05-2005, 09:35
Also a note. In space, once you hit a certain point, you can shut down the engines and continue at the same speed. Zero G, zero friction, vacuum, yadda yadda. With a burst of big engines, you could conceivably hit maximum speed without losing visual and reflexsive response times (too fast, and pilots can't react), and then no longer need the engines until it's fight time.

Lion El Jason
05-05-2005, 11:25
... until it's fight time...or you want to turn...

KhornateLord
05-05-2005, 12:25
ill bite: most starship battles occur in system rather than deep space, so there isn't zero friction, there is minute friction. Sorry, pedantic i know, but you won't keep going forever.

As lioneljason says, most energy expended in space for moving is changing direction, speed and facing angle, which can be quite a lot in a battle. Also inertia still have full effect, so in combat you would expend a lot of fuel to change direction/angle rapidly.

devolutionary
05-05-2005, 12:28
That's true, but it has minimal effect on the range at which a craft can operate, only on their fight time. Sorry, I should have made that clear :)

KhornateLord
05-05-2005, 12:49
Lol, my bad for being pedantic.

Bmaxwell
05-05-2005, 14:47
you aslo have to rember that very few times will a carrier have all of it's fighter's and bombers many are lost just during the frist battle their in and then more will proply be disassmbled so that they can repair the damaged one and thinking that its about the size of a star destoryer i don't think they'll have a proplem at all with all the ships they'll need to keep in side. (or outside for that matter)

ObiWan
05-05-2005, 21:44
That Cobra is 3 times too long. The common consensus is about 500m for the escort ships.

Where do you get they are only 3 Km long? the torpedoes only are described as being 200 feet long (aprox 67 meters) which is a bit longer than a Jumbo anyway

Rich
05-05-2005, 23:02
Where do you get they are only 3 Km long? the torpedoes only are described as being 200 feet long (aprox 67 meters) which is a bit longer than a Jumbo anyway

Its the commonly accepted size for an Imperial cruiser vessel, based mostly (but fairly concretely) on the sizes stated in both Execution Hour and Shadow point; short stories by the same author have also appeared in supplements such as warp Storm so are generally taken as canon.