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Devil
10-04-2009, 12:30
I donno if anyone else is like me but I loathe dispel scrolls.

It just seems silly to the point of ridiculous. A powerstone adds +2 dice to cast a spell why not make a dispel scroll do the same with dispel dice?

I am of the mind set that nothing should ever be a given in this game. People can load up every caster they have with 2 dispel scrolls and any lords with 4.

It is an item that exists for the sake of itself and shouldn't be in the game. Meaning if you take a scroll then your opponent must needs feel the urge to do the same and so on.. Its like dude you didn't need to go there did you? Now I have to.

I just don't have alot of respect for players that always field one and especially inwardly get irritated with players that fill their coffers with as many scrolls as can be carried.

Anyone have any ideas how to handle players that do this? This tactic literally SUCKS the fun right out of any game. If you enjoy casting magic you can kiss that part of the game goodbye. Personally I think the biggest thing wrong with this latest edition of warhammer is the dispel scroll. They need to either change how it gets used or put greater limitations on how many can be taken in an army/hero/lord.
Personally I see them as a crutch for players who are deficient in some way as a general or a competitor.

I never have fielded a list yet where I used one but I am troubled by it. Being somewhat new to Warhammer this last 2 years I have yet to play in a real tournament or even mix it up down at a local gaming store like Ernies Games locally or Gamesworkshop in Factoria. So I have never fielded a scroll to keep competitive with the scene . But I am planning on snatching up the next oppertunity to play in the next local tournament that comes my way at either store. As you can see I am troubled by the way so many people abuse the scroll and cannot deny that I personally feel a tugging to do the same since I have doubts that I will be as competitive should I decide to take the high road and continue to boycott what I have built up in my mind as the biggest BS Item in the game.
Anyone else feel the same way or similar?

Awilla the Hun
10-04-2009, 12:32
I beg to differ.

I have enough trouble fighting Tzeentchi armies without having my only magical defence castrated, thank you very much.

R Man
10-04-2009, 12:43
Most players don't like half their armies to be sucked into the warp every turn by some guy in a bath robe. For some armies the dispel scroll is their only defense. Not to mention that 25 points is quite a lot for an item that can't really harm your opponent, only stop you from being harmed. Remember that taking all those scrolls like you say would be very expensive and cost the army alot of combat power and leadership while providing no way to actually cause damage other than denial.

Scrolls also only work once, even a decent number of scrolls (2 caddies, 4 scrolls and 4 dice) cost over two hunderd points, more if you want to try to cast with them and only be able to hold out for one or two rounds before the scrolls are gone and spells start getting through. FYI: a single well equipped wizard lord can do this in one turn.

rtunian
10-04-2009, 12:48
probably all people who are 1-dimensional magic only players loathe dispel scrolls.

what you need to do is diversify. i'll wager that you bring magic heavy lists to the table every single time. naturally, your opponents figured it out, and started bringing dispel scrolls en masse.

the first thing you need to do is stop bringing magic heavy lists to the table every single time. for your next game, make a non-magic list, or a magic light list, and show up, and laugh at all the points they wasted on dispel scrolls. if they still bring half a tome of dispels, then keep bringing your non-magic list, until they stop bringing the tome, and then bam! right back to the magic.

the point of the above exercise is to keep your opponent guessing. when they do not know exactly what you are going to do before the game even starts, they cannot tailor their army to counter that exact strategy. well, they can, but that's not very smart, and prone to failure against a general with varied tactics.

selone
10-04-2009, 12:55
This tactic literally SUCKS the fun right out of any game.

Nothing makes me laugh more when people get the usage of the word literally wrong. Unless of course as soon as someone scroll's your gateway there's a huge noise as everyone's fun is sucked up into your opponent's army list and where before there was a room/club/shop of people enjoying a game now everyone is sad with long faces :D

Mireadur
10-04-2009, 13:06
I believe dispell scrolls are certainly cheap and the 2 dice idea is very good indeed.

Going to ask my gaming group tomorrow what do they think about your idea.

I guess it all depends on the kind of games you normally play. In my group we rarely load up on magic so scrolls become a huge annoyance because they are used those rare times you manage to get off a spell. In this kind of set up, making the D. Scrolls +2DD instead auto-dispell wouldnt mean a big difference really, but certainly feels fairer. :p

badgeraddict
10-04-2009, 13:10
Dispel Scrolls are vital for those big spells. Or for when you are not confident that your dispel dice will beat that 20 your opponent just rolled to cast Black Horror or what ever.

With my Bretonnians I NEED Dispel Scrolls because I cannot rely on my dispel dice, or the Chalice of Malfleur.

Against magic heavy armies you will find more often than not, your dispel dice will prove effectice only for so long. This is where Dispel Scrolls are important.

Thats what I think anyway.

/end

xragg
10-04-2009, 13:12
It just seems silly to the point of ridiculous. A powerstone adds +2 dice to cast a spell why not make a dispel scroll do the same with dispel dice?
A person buying a power stone will always find a use for it, while you may not need to use a dispel scroll (dwarfs, melee heavy lists,...)


I am of the mind set that nothing should ever be a given in this game. People can load up every caster they have with 2 dispel scrolls and any lords with 4.
And its wasted points when they play an army with little or no magic.


It is an item that exists for the sake of itself and shouldn't be in the game. Meaning if you take a scroll then your opponent must needs feel the urge to do the same and so on.. Its like dude you didn't need to go there did you? Now I have to.
An opponent increasing their magic output makes me take more scrolls, not an opponent taking more dispel scrolls. If they take more dispel scrolls, why would I need to counter it with dispel scrolls?


I just don't have alot of respect for players that always field one and especially inwardly get irritated with players that fill their coffers with as many scrolls as can be carried.
Some spells are very devastating. You find it wrong that people want some protection for the first couple turns until they can get into combat wrong?


Anyone have any ideas how to handle players that do this? This tactic literally SUCKS the fun right out of any game. If you enjoy casting magic you can kiss that part of the game goodbye.
Vary your lists. Come one week melee heavy, the next magic heavy, and the next balanced. If you keep them guessing, then they cant stack lists againts you and they have to stay honest themselves if they want to be competitive week in and week out.


Personally I think the biggest thing wrong with this latest edition of warhammer is the dispel scroll.
Dispel scrolls have been around as far back as I can remeber.


Personally I see them as a crutch for players who are deficient in some way as a general or a competitor.
No. The problem is you either have to go very strong in magic, or dont bring it at all. Medium magic just wont get you anywhere, short of an occansional total power.

O&G'sRule
10-04-2009, 13:23
No theyre a necessity. Armies with strong magic shouldn't have access to them but otherwise you'd be way too open without them. They add a tactical element too as you have to work out when they are best deployed

Llew
10-04-2009, 13:29
Dispel scrolls aren't a given that you can rely on: Irresistable Force can let any spell through.

Personally, I've always played WFB for the "battle" side of the game. I find the magic to be the part that sucks the fun out of the game for me. Nothing less interesting than watching your foe burn through 20 power dice worth of spells while you try to figure out where to throw your 5 dispel dice.

If you like magic that much, I have a card game that you might try. It might be more suited to your playstyle.

TheDarkDuke
10-04-2009, 13:30
would this complaint have anything to do with the fact that you play high elves and vampire counts? 2 armies that just happen to have alot of magic most of the time?

no scrolls are not broke. if anything they even be overpriced in my opinion since i only ever take them on lvl 2s if i feel like i need magic defense.

mind you i tend to stay away from magic heavy list after my tzeentch army of 18 pd last edition where every turn i would have a miscast. (poor demon princes and lords:cries:)

theunwantedbeing
10-04-2009, 13:31
People who have problems with scrolls usually fall into one of 2 categories.

1. They don't know how to deal with scroll caddies (ie. kill them)
2. They try to win the game with magic on turn 1 or 2.

As a result, scrolls seem utterly unfair and the idea to have them be +2 dispel dice in a similar manner to a powerstone being +2 casting dice inevitably is sugguested.
Rather than solve the real problem, they shoot the messenger in an attempt to keep their current way of playing exactly the same.

Scrolls are fine as they are.
Kill the caddy before you give him any reason to use those scrolls.

narrativium
10-04-2009, 13:31
Indeed. "Do I think I can dispel a 10 with my three remaining dice, or should I scroll it and hope that's the worst of it?"

A scroll is also equally useless against Irresistible Force.

I wouldn't object to an additional magic item, among certain armies, allowing wizards a one-use-only bonus dispel dice at lower cost than a scroll. If this was the effect a Tooth-Gnoblar had upon a Butcher, I'd start taking them. But I don't think the scroll itself is a bad thing, given how magic-heavy certain forces can be.

Shamfrit
10-04-2009, 13:56
Most players don't like half their armies to be sucked into the warp every turn by some guy in a bath robe.

Oh the euphamisms and metaphors and innuendo possible indeed :D

Sigged!

Awilla the Hun
10-04-2009, 13:56
I see dice and scrolls as being like Ballistic Skill and modifiers for shooting, and Weapons Skill and rank bonuses for Close Combat. Sometimes, attacks have to miss their targets, and be foiled. As Magic Missiles don't use BS (I still don't know why this is, but it's good for balance), they have to be deflected-that Damsel making a dramatic gesture and knocking it aside with a blast of natural force, for instance. Steed of Shadows propels someone a goodly distance, but just watch that flying horse of darkness go when it's being pinned down by that Skink Priest's Glowning Nimbus of Heavenly Energy (tm). And so on. Every type of killing has roughly equal power, strength, and weaknesses, and all must be taken account of for a game to go well.

W0lf
10-04-2009, 17:04
I dont mind dispel scrolls.

Scroll my 1 dice invoc for all i care.

YTY
10-04-2009, 19:12
Only an idiot would buy 2 scrolls for their every mage and 4 scrolls for their lord.

ukko
10-04-2009, 19:14
I couldn't disagree with OP more...

Magic is a great part of warhammer but any army which relies completely on a big magic phase (aka those who can be neutered by scrolls) is boring, in the same manner as gunlines. Dispel scrolls are no more broken than armour is.

If an opponent brings 8 scrolls and it's a smart move, you're doing something wrong.

Desert Rain
10-04-2009, 19:20
I don't mind scrolls, most people only take about 2 and they are usually gone after a couple of turns.

Horus38
10-04-2009, 19:25
Anyone have any ideas how to handle players that do this? This tactic literally SUCKS the fun right out of any game. If you enjoy casting magic you can kiss that part of the game goodbye.

You're kidding... Dispel scrolls are ruining WHFB?

If you play magic heavy lists you deserve to be punished by opponents that load up on dispel scrolls. Try making a more balanced list and your opponents will have ineffective characters (aka nothing but dispel scrolls for equipment) and a huge point sink in items that wont be impacting the coming battle.

Dispel scrolls fulfill an important role in the game. They are priced high enough that they cannot be spammed. I have never had a game that I found was ruined because of them.

swarmofseals
10-04-2009, 19:31
It's funny -- I think that dispel scrolls are one of the few things that keep magic even remotely balanced in this game. The fact of the matter is, magic is ridiculously powerful if left unchecked. There are also certain armies which can field WAY more magic than others. The way I see it, if dispel scrolls didn't exist or weren't as effective as they are, everybody would be forced to take as much magic as possible so as to have even a shred of hope against the super heavy magic lists.

Dispel scrolls don't constrict army design, they give magic light lists a fighting chance.

dijit80
10-04-2009, 19:38
You've got to be joking - dispel ruining this edition of the game? They've been pretty unchanged in the last few editions, they're a fixed part of warhammer. If you're opponent is loading up on dispels, its probably in response to something you're doing or a rule you're getting wrong. Opponents only do something silly like load up on one thing or another if you (as they're opponent) is also doing something silly. So if you're struggling with dispel scrolls my suggestion is that you look in the mirror and see how you're abusing the game and ruining your opponents game.

W0lf
10-04-2009, 19:41
If you play magic heavy lists you deserve to be punished by opponents that load up on dispel scrolls.

*************************

Ill play the game how i want to within the limits of the rules, i happen to find the magic phase the most compelling part of warhamemr FANTASY. Dont go getting elitist about how YOU think we should all play the game.

Scrolls are kindof stupid in the magic phase however;

Magic in warhammer is at heart all about bluffing your opponent and getting down solid casting order + no. of dice to skillfully maximise your potential. Magic is random whilst scrolls are not.

Feefait
10-04-2009, 19:45
I hate dispel scrolsl too. I hate that they are automatic, and I hate scroll caddies. However, logically speaking in a world where magic is so prominent and one spell could decimate a city... imagine Pit of Shades in the middle of the Empire capital, or a skaven plague. wouldn't they have developed an ultimate defense against magic? And wouldn't a smart general bring that to battle. I think calling someone using a scroll caddy, or scrolls at all (if i get the inference right) is poor gamesmanship and just kinda sad. I would say a good general gets around scrolls, knows how to draw them out and make the enemy waste them. Or maybe tries a diffeent army approach. if your opponent are just trying to stop your magic, go all combat. adaption is the name of the game. warhammer has always been about crazy magic, there are just more ways to counter it now and dispel scrolls are the easiest and most efficient.

Makarion
10-04-2009, 19:49
I believe dispell scrolls are certainly cheap and the 2 dice idea is very good indeed.

Going to ask my gaming group tomorrow what do they think about your idea.

I guess it all depends on the kind of games you normally play. In my group we rarely load up on magic so scrolls become a huge annoyance because they are used those rare times you manage to get off a spell. In this kind of set up, making the D. Scrolls +2DD instead auto-dispell wouldnt mean a big difference really, but certainly feels fairer. :p

I'd be all in favour of dispel scrolls being +2 dispel dice, as long as they become non-unique enchanted items instead of arcane ones, and probably around 15 points each. Defense should be cheaper than mindless offense, as the latter is easier to cause.

dijit80
10-04-2009, 20:02
***********************
Ill play the game how i want to within the limits of the rules, i happen to find the magic phase the most compelling part of warhamemr FANTASY. Dont go getting elitist about how YOU think we should all play the game.


And your opponent is doing likewise, this isn't really an arguement against scrolls. You're opponent is doing exactly the same by loading up on scrolls.



Scrolls are kindof stupid in the magic phase however;

Magic in warhammer is at heart all about bluffing your opponent and getting down solid casting order + no. of dice to skillfully maximise your potential. Magic is random whilst scrolls are not.

This however is a good point! Magic is probably the most random element in this game and having something that doesn't work randomly in this phase is a bit unlogical, however I stand by scrolls and say keep just as they are - I don't fancy having 4 wizards facing off to another 4 wizards blasting away while the rest is a little worthless, its hardly then a wargame and you may as well play a CCG (collectable card game) for all its worth.

Storak
10-04-2009, 20:05
I believe dispell scrolls are certainly cheap and the 2 dice idea is very good indeed.

i don t think that this is a good idea. the scroll has a completely different purpose than the dice.

it is there, to stop the big and deadly spell. extra dice are useless against a big roll.

if you want to limit the scrolls, limit their number (and the number of PDs at the same time)

if you want them to be random, reduce their price and give them a chance of failure (1 in 6, for example).

W0lf
10-04-2009, 20:17
scroll only working on a 2+ is a good idea and one ive always supported.

I do however think that you should be able to use a scroll AND try to dispel AFTER if you roll a 1. Thus eliminating the risk involved where you have dice+scrolls.

Another idea is for first scroll per turn to be 2+ then next is 3+ etc.

theunwantedbeing
10-04-2009, 20:24
An alternative rule would be for scrolls to quite literally drain the magic out of the enemy spell.
Say...a 2+ per powerdice used to cast each spell.
So the enemy casts a spell on 4 dice(1,3,4,6), you roll 4D6 and roll a 2,5,3,1 so 3 dice are removed from the casting value.
You could have it be the you draw away the lowest values first, the highest last.

So in the above example the 1,3 & 4 are removd, leaving the 6. So unless the spell is cast at a power level of only 6 (why use 4 dice?) then the spell has failed to hit the casting value and has not succeded.

Count de Monet
10-04-2009, 20:40
I'd be fine with getting rid of dispel scrolls IF they also:

*Adjust a number of casting costs(some lower, some higher).
*Rein in the number of power dice available.
*Get rid of irresistable force.

kdh88
10-04-2009, 21:13
Honestly, the real problem is the way magic scales. It just isn't worth it to spend hundreds of points that may do nothing in order to boost your DD enough to challenge magic spamming armies. Besides that, most armies only have one good defensive item, so there just aren't many alternatives. What the game really needs is more items like the empire's staff of power that give you some flexibility in your DD:PD ratio, along with cheaper ways to boost your DD.

GW does seem to have partially caught on to this; most of the newer armies actually do have viable non-scroll options:

O+G: Staff of sneaky stealin+spirit totem
Empire: Warrior Priests+Wizard w/ Staff of power. This is bit unusual, since the priests are still useful even if the never get a prayer off or get to use their dispels, which isn't true of most wizards
DE: Ring (shouldn't really need to be said).
LM: Diadem of power, mirror shield (this is actually a step backwards, but meh)
WoC: Black tongue+puppet
HE: Annulian Crystal and/or Staff of Sorcery
DoC: Horror spam and lots of MR.

Devil
10-04-2009, 21:40
ll play the game how i want to within the limits of the rules, i happen to find the magic phase the most compelling part of warhamemr FANTASY. Dont go getting elitist about how YOU think we should all play the game. -Wolf

I agree 100%. I seem to burn through all the phases of the game quite quickly but when the magic phase is upon me I slow it down. I find the deepest thinking comes in this phase. Deciding what to do. Deciding to dispel or not. Its a huge tactical part of the game..maybe even the biggest with the movement phase being a close 1st or 2nd I can't be sure.

The aforementioned said now you have all the genius packed into the strategy of the magic phase and with a cheap 25 point item all of that strategy is blown right out the window.

Alot of you will say that I am wrong and that their is nothing wrong with scrolls and then without batting an eye will suggest a fix for the scrolls. Why do they need a fix if there is nothing wrong?


I find that most people I talk to generally agree that they are broken.This I get from conversations down at my local stores. I am actually taken back that more of you do not agree.

I am playing a VC army currently and its not really a choice of course I am going to have alot of magic. VC armies by design depend on magic. I guess I get inwardly annoyed when we are playing a 1500 point game and my opponent brings along 4 dispel scrolls. It just seems excessive. Especially since he is the high elves to begin with. You destroy the whole " man he cast Wind of Undeath on me with a 8 do I roll 2 dice and chance it or do I roll 3?" This is the part of the strategy of Warhammer that is beautiful and is spit on with the use of a magical dispelling scroll.


Consider this. I have played about 20 games of warhammer by now and have yet to see any game where magic actually played such a large hand in it that it could be said the person won the game because of his magic. Maybe your games are different I donno. I see magic for the most part as inneffective when you compare it to the brutality and sudden death of close combat. Now you add a scroll that is virtually a guarantee that you will put an end to any spell uinless it is cast irresistably and you reduce an already ineffective aspect of the game even greater.

All this aside I just don't think anything should be as certain as dispel scrolls are. I know irresistable force exists but it just doesn't seem a big enough chance to even it out. Its a game and it uses dice and I think people that rely on dispel scrolls can't take the uncertainty and need a crutch to tell them its gonna be okay. When I say that they force everyone else to take one I mean....You have a fair game of warhammer without them. You have 12 power dice and your opponent has 6 dispel dice you guys are even in power...for if anyone is at a disadvantage in the magic phase they will surely be at some advantage somewhere else in the game be it close combat or shooting or movement or some special rule that balances it out. So we have this even steven style of play that gets corrupted and shattered the second someone brings in a dispel scroll. Now in order to even things up again you must take one because your opponent did. They just aren't a neccessary item. They don't bring balance to the game they can in some games ruin the balance.

Personally I LOATHE the damn things.

rtunian
10-04-2009, 21:50
devil this is not a problem with dispel scrolls, or people who bring dispel scrolls.
this is a problem with your friend being a jerk. in a low point (under 2k) game, vc is at a disadvantage to begin with, and bringing 4 scrolls on top of that (in a friends game) is pretty lame. if it was a tournament or league i'd hold my tongue, but if it's just a couple of buddies...

maybe it's time to bring out your lord? ask for 2k or 2250 next time. in a game at that level, dispel scrolls alone won't just completely shut down your magic for the entire game.

again, though, this isn't a problem with the scrolls, this is a problem with your opponent knowing exactly what your weakness is and exploiting the hell out of it. see rule #1 (the most important rule, that is)

invinciblebug
10-04-2009, 21:52
Your playing an army that relies on magic and is usually seen as overpowered and your complaining about that the best magic defence available for most armies out there is overpowered. Heh.

theunwantedbeing
10-04-2009, 21:53
I am playing a VC army currently and its not really a choice of course I am going to have alot of magic. VC armies by design depend on magic. I guess I get inwardly annoyed when we are playing a 1500 point game and my opponent brings along 4 dispel scrolls. It just seems excessive. Especially since he is the high elves to begin with.

VC armies do not depend on magic.
That sort of attitude is why people take 4 scrolls at 1.5k against you.

bob_the_small
10-04-2009, 22:10
You sir, are an imbecile....

The point of the scroll is to help armies that dont have lots of magic, my DE for example i have 2 lvl 1's they are scroll caddies for a reason, it is a cheap and easy way to dispel a spell.....

Say i went up against a WoC or High Elf magiv heavy army, then the scrolls would be invaluable! Only the other day i played a Teclis + Mage spam and the scrolls really helped... they are not there for any stupid reasons, they are there to dispel big spells like Infernal Gateway, Vaul's Unmaking, Black Horror, and many more...

BOB

Mireadur
10-04-2009, 22:26
i don t think that this is a good idea. the scroll has a completely different purpose than the dice.

it is there, to stop the big and deadly spell. extra dice are useless against a big roll.

if you want to limit the scrolls, limit their number (and the number of PDs at the same time)

if you want them to be random, reduce their price and give them a chance of failure (1 in 6, for example).

Well you need to take my full post into account to give sense to that quote. In games where 1 side has loads of PD of course im all for the dispell scrolls, since they seem to be the only thing aviable to defend yourself.

danny-d-b
10-04-2009, 22:36
so your saying beacuse you thing you NEED magic to go off, you getting rid of scrolls

take a minuet to thing of all thoughts empire players out there (any anyone else this situation applys to)

in your 1500 point game, your going to want a decent LD hero, and your prob going to want a BSB just to keep your troops arournd in combat, which leaves you with one spot left

great a maxium of 4 DD (if you took a preast as the LD hero)

4 dice against, how many you are bringing at 1500, prob around 6-8 dice (2-3 level 2s wizzards) plus bound items

so what do I do
bring to dispel scolls
wow 2 spells that are going to get auto dispeld in a game, great!

I still have choises to make about what to scroll, 2 scrolls is 2 spell, then its down to dice

Pavic
10-04-2009, 22:44
Clearly the OP needs to start playing Dwarfs. Then he can laugh in the face of his friends as he freely switch between his two armies and his buddies waste valuable magic item points for dispel scrolls.

Personally, I don't have any problems with dispel scrolls. My group plays a wide variety of armies with lists ranging from heavy magic to no magic. Believe me, once one plays against a heavy magic list and one decided to skimp on magic defense (aka 1 scroll and a level 1 wizard), one begins to understand why scrolls are perfectly acceptable.

Tokamak
10-04-2009, 22:48
I agree.

This discussion is NOT about whether the scrolls are too strong or too weak, it's about that they're one of the few things in this games which provide an absolute certain outcome.

EndlessBug
10-04-2009, 23:14
4 scrolls in 1500 is excessive I'll give you that. Seriously the amount of people who depend on magic, a lot of VC players, Tzeentch demon flying circus'. Fix the insane amount of magic offence and then we'll talk about reducing scroll effectiveness, atm they're the least defencive players need. Tactics you say? When do i use this scroll? Is it needed right now or should I save it and risk it?

you play a magic heavy VC army, ask anyone here, what's more broken, a scroll or VC magic spam? I'll bet most would say magic spam VCs.

metro_gnome
10-04-2009, 23:38
I've always felt it was the double allowance that is the problem with dispel scrolls...
if a dispel scroll was just like any other arcane item... then it would be less of a no-brainer...
especially if it means not taking another arcane item...

fluffier too...

Freakiq
11-04-2009, 00:37
Ill play the game how i want to within the limits of the rules, i happen to find the magic phase the most compelling part of warhamemr FANTASY. Dont go getting elitist about how YOU think we should all play the game.


And I'll play however I want within the limit of the rules by scrolling away your magic.

You're the elitist who feels he's wronged when someone brings something that can counter his "tactics".

Zoolander
11-04-2009, 01:04
I feel both sides have a valid point here. Magic can get very nasty with 17 PD if dispel scrolls weren't available, and magic is no fun when your opponent with 6 scrolls and 7 DP cancels everything you try to do, especially for magic heavy armies such as Tomb Kings that literally live off the stuff ("live" being relative for you undead folks).

So what's the solution? Obviously, the system needs to be helped some. One problem is that dispel scrolls are so cheap and readily available. One idea passed through the ages was to make them cost 30 pts. This means that scroll caddy can only take one scroll. Maybe decrease the casting cost of spells to make them easier to get off, but lower their effectiveness/power so that one spell doesn't destroy your opponent's whole unit in one casting. The idea to make scrolls take arcane slots isn't horribly bad as long as you could take 2 of them with a lord caster or something (make them cost 30 pts as well?). That would make people decide whether to take a scroll and have no items, or have an arcane item but no scrolls. Maybe increase dispel dice to be even with the power dice, but remove scrolls entirely. Then there's a chance to fail at dispelling it as well. Just some thoughts.

The problem with the system today, is that knowing that your opponent will take at least one scroll caddy, that either you go big or go home. In other words, a little magic will do you no good because you won't get any spells through, so you have to devote a lot of points to overload the magic phase just to cast anything. Compare this to the shooting phase. Can you take one or two units or archers and might they be effective? Of course. One or two units of fighty CC units in a shooty army, and might they be effective? Yes! So why then must I purchase a scroll caddy mage just to have some reasonable defense, but at the same time know that I have to take at least 10-15 PD just to ensure some important spells go off?

W0lf
11-04-2009, 01:21
And I'll play however I want within the limit of the rules by scrolling away your magic.

didnt read my previous post?

yeah thought so :rolleyes:

Pavic
11-04-2009, 01:31
The problem with the system today, is that knowing that your opponent will take at least one scroll caddy...

And the real question here is, why does everyone feel it necessary to take a scroll caddie? Could it possibly be because the magic system is so unbalanced because people can take armies with 19 PD?

narrativium
11-04-2009, 01:43
didnt read my previous post?

yeah thought so :rolleyes:

jumped to conclusions and made a sarcastic reply? :rolleyes:

Finnigan2004
11-04-2009, 01:43
I'm not so sure Pavic. A scroll caddie is going to be virtually useless against 19 pd. I think that the problem that people are pointing out here is that the caddie and 5-6 dispel dice will neuter moderate magic-- say 7-8 dice. When taking an 8 power dice army to a tourney, I managed to get off three spells in three games (one with irresistable force) because of the proliferation of caddies and defensive items. The points spent on those magic levels were virtually wasted, as a result.

This means that when someone is playing a game, there's no point in bringing a pair of wizards because they'll be totally shut down (a few examples, such as dark elves notwithstanding). This encourages a go big or go home attitude. It's really a problem with scaling of magic, and one that scroll caddies contribute to.

Pavic
11-04-2009, 01:53
I'm not so sure Pavic. A scroll caddie is going to be virtually useless against 19 pd. I think that the problem that people are pointing out here is that the caddie and 5-6 dispel dice will neuter moderate magic-- say 7-8 dice. When taking an 8 power dice army to a tourney, I managed to get off three spells in three games (one with irresistable force) because of the proliferation of caddies and defensive items. The points spent on those magic levels were virtually wasted, as a result.

This means that when someone is playing a game, there's no point in bringing a pair of wizards because they'll be totally shut down (a few examples, such as dark elves notwithstanding). This encourages a go big or go home attitude. It's really a problem with scaling of magic, and one that scroll caddies contribute to.

I agree, it is a problem with the scaling, but it seems to me that scroll caddies are a contributing problem solely because the magic scaling issue exists.

R Man
11-04-2009, 01:55
I agree 100%. I seem to burn through all the phases of the game quite quickly but when the magic phase is upon me I slow it down. I find the deepest thinking comes in this phase. Deciding what to do. Deciding to dispel or not. Its a huge tactical part of the game..maybe even the biggest with the movement phase being a close 1st or 2nd I can't be sure.

But the problem with this is that against a high magic side the only choice a player has is if they get destroyed by this spell, or dispel it and get destroyed by the next one. Dispel scrolls at least keep death away for one more turn.


The aforementioned said now you have all the genius packed into the strategy of the magic phase and with a cheap 25 point item all of that strategy is blown right out the window.

I always felt that magic had much less strategy than other phases (except perhaps close combat). After all, one the dice are rolling its all up to luck. The spells are determined with a roll, pot luck what you get, and then because you can use a wizard to cast multiple spells there are no hard decisions to make. One spell doesn't work? So what, just pick another one and keep going. Where as a cannon for example has the choice between grapeshot or roundshot against that closing infantry unit; and if the player makes a bad choice there is no second chance. Do I charge with my spearmen or hold for the next round? These sort of things.



Alot of you will say that I am wrong and that their is nothing wrong with scrolls and then without batting an eye will suggest a fix for the scrolls. Why do they need a fix if there is nothing wrong?

I think its that people recognise that the phase itself is broken and thus suggest solutions.


Consider this. I have played about 20 games of warhammer by now and have yet to see any game where magic actually played such a large hand in it that it could be said the person won the game because of his magic. Maybe your games are different I donno. I see magic for the most part as inneffective when you compare it to the brutality and sudden death of close combat. Now you add a scroll that is virtually a guarantee that you will put an end to any spell uinless it is cast irresistably and you reduce an already ineffective aspect of the game even greater.

Magic is far from ineffective. Remember that close combat has inherent dangers on both sides. The presence of a general, standards and such can make combat a risky investment for all but the most powerful of assault units. Then there is the risk of being trapped by a counter attack. Magic might not have the same raw killing power, but it can attack with little danger (only the mistcast really). Wizards also have a great degree of flexibility, and if mounted they can use their speed to be anywhere they need to be while denying their points to the enemy and manipulate forces on both sides of the battlefield (some of the most powerful spells are not attack spells i.e: Unseen Lurker).


for if anyone is at a disadvantage in the magic phase they will surely be at some advantage somewhere else in the game be it close combat or shooting or movement or some special rule that balances it out.

As I just stated this is not nessecerily true. There are wizard spells that can strongly affect the other phases of the battle and thus a magic heavy player may not be lacking in other phases.


So we have this even steven style of play that gets corrupted and shattered the second someone brings in a dispel scroll. Now in order to even things up again you must take one because your opponent did. They just aren't a neccessary item. They don't bring balance to the game they can in some games ruin the balance.

They are the only thing that brings ballance to the game! Without them there is no defence against Tzeentchian magic nightmares or any way to stop Van Hels. And hope you never fight a Slaan. Dispel scrolls are as much a reaction to the problem as they are the cause.


So what's the solution? Obviously, the system needs to be helped some. One problem is that dispel scrolls are so cheap and readily available. One idea passed through the ages was to make them cost 30 pts. This means that scroll caddy can only take one scroll. Maybe decrease the casting cost of spells to make them easier to get off, but lower their effectiveness/power so that one spell doesn't destroy your opponent's whole unit in one casting.

Woudn't a better idea to be to limit each Wizard to using one scroll a turn? That way a players overall magic defense isn't compromised, only their ability to saturate anti-magic defense. You could also knock 5 points of the cost (since this still restricts the adverage caddy to a pair of scrolls). However armies will need other forms of magic defense or power dices should also be more limited.

theunwantedbeing
11-04-2009, 01:57
And the real question here is, why does everyone feel it necessary to take a scroll caddie? Could it possibly be because the magic system is so unbalanced because people can take armies with 19 PD?

Nope.
People take scroll caddies as they are scared witless of things like infernal gateway and black horror and don't feel they can roll 15+ on their dispel dice to stop it.

kdh88
11-04-2009, 02:25
Nope.
People take scroll caddies as they are scared witless of things like infernal gateway and black horror and don't feel they can roll 15+ on their dispel dice to stop it.

...and why do you think people are scared witless by powerful spells? Perhaps because they're too easy for magic spam armies to cast?

Stronginthearm
11-04-2009, 02:27
Nope.
People take scroll caddies as they are scared witless of things like infernal gateway and black horror and don't feel they can roll 15+ on their dispel dice to stop it.
I'm definitely with you on this I dont feel in any way that scrolls are broken, they are a way to try to limit crazy tzeetchnian(have no idea how to spell that) armies or VC spams, I personally play vampires with a heavy magic phase jsut because I like the image, and if, one game my opponent decides to mass scrolls and totally mess me up, the next game I can come back and put him into the position of having to decide whether to take all the anti-magic again and block me or spend the points somewhere else because I just removed 90% of the magic and now have a huge melee force

No army list should be entirely dependant upon your opponent doing what you want and having a deliberately open line of attack the point is to have found a route of attack he didn't think of and exploit it and for him to do the same, If you are just massing PD of course scrolls are going to mess you up

theunwantedbeing
11-04-2009, 02:28
No because they're difficult to stop with dispel dice alone, usually because you have to throw the lot of them at the spell, and then there's a notable risk of you getting a double 1.

Nothing to do with how easily they are cast.

Armies with loads of dice arent going to be spamming the high level spells, they get scrolled.
They're going to spam the low level spells that you really dont want to waste a scroll on.

Shadowsinner
11-04-2009, 02:59
i used 2 dispel scrolls in my last game... am I a bad person?:(

EvC
11-04-2009, 03:20
Yep, s'right. I'd never really used a scroll caddy in any of my armies until quite recentlywhen I moved over to Khornate Warriors of Chaos. As the dispelling power of the army has shrunk considerably, and due to the proliferation of metal magic, there really is no way around it: if Spirit of the Forge goes off, then I'm probably going to be taking off my unit of Knights. Now the smart-**** player will say, "Ah, why not just use tactics to stop that happening?", but should bear in mind that this is with the use of those glorious tactics. The unit has to be visible for at least one turn, and most likely will be a target for two turns. Thus... two scrolls are needed. Any more than that, and, well, I'll just have to hope that the dice-gods favour me. But even without them you have spells like Rule of Burning Iron, absolutely deadly to Warriors of Chaos, and can even be cast into combat. Again, all that can be done about that is to pray to the dice gods and hope that a bit of magic resistance will help out. If I were to play against an army with three level 2 Mages all with Metal magic, I have little doubt that by turn three my Chaos Lord would be sniped to death. But at least I can scroll the Spirits and the Gateways...

dijit80
11-04-2009, 07:17
Warhammer is a 'war' game, not a 'mage' game. Magic is ther to buff your troops not replace them. Excessive magic is not the point of warhammer at all, it is the interaction of your troops. the same can be said for people who spend excessively on other types of characters, yes heroes have their place and can turn a battle - but it is the battle thats important, not what a bunch of 3 or 4 heroes do to each other. Dispel scrolls are warhammers way of stopping all sorts of magic silliness and us ending up in a game where we don't even need models anymore, but just roll dice.

Another point is this: Yes they are an un-random part of the game, but so is everything else in list construction - you work out your static CR, your magic item combinations, how many cannons you want, how many PD/DD ypu want to have, etc. In that way is not by any means the only random part of the game. If the argument is that its not random then lets go the whole way and have random army lists and roll to see what you get each game.

dispel scrolls offer a huge tactical part of the magic phase, you only have a few of them and using them at the right time is very important - should I use it now, or has he/she got something worse coming?

I say keep them just as they are.

Staurikosaurus
11-04-2009, 07:25
The OP thinks dispel scrolls are the most broken thing in the game :eyebrows:

Apparently than you're okay with 1/4" charges getting full bonuses and to beat a dead horse, the daemon army book? :rolleyes:

Kamenwati
11-04-2009, 10:47
The real reason I see for the "need" for Scroll caddies and Dispel Scrolls is the inherent difference between casting dice and dispel dice. As other posters have noted, the ease at which many armies can acquire a frighteneing number of power dice versus how many dispel dice an army not specifically geared for magic defense creates a huge gap of power.

Some armies just cannot generate a sufficient defense even dedicating themselves to it without dispel scrolls. The idea of breaking dispel scrolls to be the equivalent of power stones is, simply put, a poor way of dealing with the problem that makes them needed. Until spells that can remove entire units from the board, hit an entire opposing players army and bolster your own, create mass casualties for little risk and so on are dealt with there is going to be a need for a way to stop these high power spells while also still having a way to not get torn apart piecemail by smaller spells.

Tae
11-04-2009, 11:11
Warhammer is a 'war' game, not a 'mage' game. Magic is ther to buff your troops not replace them. Excessive magic is not the point of warhammer at all,

The point of Warhammer is to have fun. If you and your local gaming group have fun by using high levels of magic (such as me and my gaming group) then who are you or anyone else to tell us we're playing it 'wrong'?


it is the interaction of your troops. the same can be said for people who spend excessively on other types of characters, yes heroes have their place and can turn a battle - but it is the battle thats important, not what a bunch of 3 or 4 heroes do to each other.

Again, people can play the game how they want to. Now granted tourneys are a completely different matter, but then they're tourneys so you have to just suck it up when it comes to lists that might not agree with your own idea of what armies should be/how they should play.


Dispel scrolls are warhammers way of stopping all sorts of magic silliness and us ending up in a game where we don't even need models anymore, but just roll dice.

Whereas close combat has nothing to do with rolling dice whatsoever ... :rolleyes:

Gazak Blacktoof
11-04-2009, 11:32
O+G: Staff of sneaky stealin+spirit totem
Empire: Warrior Priests+Wizard w/ Staff of power. This is bit unusual, since the priests are still useful even if the never get a prayer off or get to use their dispels, which isn't true of most wizards
DE: Ring (shouldn't really need to be said).
LM: Diadem of power, mirror shield (this is actually a step backwards, but meh)
WoC: Black tongue+puppet
HE: Annulian Crystal and/or Staff of Sorcery
DoC: Horror spam and lots of MR.

I think some of these solutions are worse than the problem, horror spam and the black tongue+puppet in particular don't simply boost your magic defence they also improve your own magic, they produce an even bigger gap between the haves and the have-nots.

I think the ring of hotek is good because it actually makes it more difficult to have an offencive magic phase and simply increases the risk to the opponent within an area of the battlefield. Its a much more tactical "weapon" and it doesn't polarise the armies.

Kerill
11-04-2009, 11:45
Warhammer is a 'war' game, not a 'mage' game..

No its the game of FANTASY battles. If you don't like the fantasy aspect you can use your mini's to play a historical wargame.

Magic is and should be a major part of the game. With the exception of Tzeentch daemons, perhaps VC and maybe Teclis there is no single army capable of the theoretical army destruction some people whine about with magic. And even the VC have to get into combat at some point. Teclis will struggle to do enough damage against a unit with a lot of troops. Magic does not replace troops, you need both to win.

And the magic phase is MUCH more tactical in nature than shooting or even combat, anyone who goes into a battle (Tzeentch daemons aside) counting solely ont their ability to blast their opponent to smithereen with magic is going to lose if they don't have a real battleplan to go with it.

Back OT, scrolls are not overpowered but scroll caddies do neuter medium magic too well.. These days of course they pale in comparison to Frodo the dark elf ring bearer. If I was to fix scrolls I'd simply add the rule:
A wizard cannot carry more dispel scrolls than they have magic levels/power dice added to their army pool.

Tae
11-04-2009, 13:29
black tongue+puppet in particular don't simply boost your magic defence they also improve your own magic,

Only in as much as you manage to pull any miscast results down to a 5-6. The other 9 results don't improve your own magic anymore than hitting the wizard in the face with a cannonball - and in some cases considerably less so.

Finnigan2004
11-04-2009, 14:12
I agree, it is a problem with the scaling, but it seems to me that scroll caddies are a contributing problem solely because the magic scaling issue exists.

I think that scroll caddies are a huge contributing problem because I know that the two most effective spells that I actually manage to get off will automatically be nullified. Add to this the fact that once combat is joined, magic is reduced in effectiveness. This means that I probably have two to three turns of using my mage to maximum effectiveness. As a result, in competitive environments, players will go with overwhelming force to ensure some good spells get through or a caddie or two (with some other defence added).

Heck, if it's a tourney that I'm playing competitively, I'll throw the blood statuette on my temple guard champion to drain out a scroll. Probably not the intent of a magic allowance on a temple guard champion, so much as some armour or a sword. Caddies are huge in the decision to "go big or go home" with magic because they make a big contribution to the arms race that is magic. In terms of being too good for their points, if you see one in nearly every army that you face (I certainly do)-- then chances are they are pretty good value for the points (note, not broken, etc.-- just a little too good or under pointed).

Pavic
11-04-2009, 14:43
I think that scroll caddies are a huge contributing problem because I know that the two most effective spells that I actually manage to get off will automatically be nullified.


I think you missed my point. I agree that scroll caddies are contributing to the problem, but, if magic scale was more balanced, the number of scroll caddies runnning around would (hopefully) diminish significantly. So, the real problem is magic scale and scroll caddies are simply a solution to the current issues that only makes things worse.

However, I do not agree with your second point. There is no way that dispel scrolls guarantee that your two most effective spells will be nullified. First, there is a chance that a spell will go off with irresistible force. Second, deciding when to use a scroll can be a huge decision in some games and sometimes a player will make a choice to stop something that they should let go. Now, if you are running moderate magic, of course there is a higher chance that your best spells will get stopped, but this is, as previously mentioned, a problem with magic scale and how magic scale results in a high number of scroll caddies seeing the table.

dijit80
11-04-2009, 15:20
No its the game of FANTASY battles. If you don't like the fantasy aspect you can use your mini's to play a historical wargame.

Magic is and should be a major part of the game. With the exception of Tzeentch daemons, perhaps VC and maybe Teclis there is no single army capable of the theoretical army destruction some people whine about with magic. And even the VC have to get into combat at some point. Teclis will struggle to do enough damage against a unit with a lot of troops. Magic does not replace troops, you need both to win.

And the magic phase is MUCH more tactical in nature than shooting or even combat, anyone who goes into a battle (Tzeentch daemons aside) counting solely ont their ability to blast their opponent to smithereen with magic is going to lose if they don't have a real battleplan to go with it.

Back OT, scrolls are not overpowered but scroll caddies do neuter medium magic too well.. These days of course they pale in comparison to Frodo the dark elf ring bearer. If I was to fix scrolls I'd simply add the rule:
A wizard cannot carry more dispel scrolls than they have magic levels/power dice added to their army pool.

I'm not and have never said that magic has no part in warhammer fantasy. for the record I also play Warhammer Ancient Battles. What I am objecting to is that if you remove dispel scrolls without levelling the magic phase, you could quite easily end up in a game were you have 4 models on each side blasting the hell out of each other with magic - that doesn't fit my idea of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

EvC
11-04-2009, 15:32
I think that scroll caddies are a huge contributing problem because I know that the two most effective spells that I actually manage to get off will automatically be nullified. Add to this the fact that once combat is joined, magic is reduced in effectiveness. This means that I probably have two to three turns of using my mage to maximum effectiveness. As a result, in competitive environments, players will go with overwhelming force to ensure some good spells get through or a caddie or two (with some other defence added).

That's where tactics come into the game. If you are playing your magic phase well, then you should not have only one strong spell attempt per phase. If you want to only bring 2 level 2s and still have an attempt at a magic phase, then manage them so that the first spell in the list will always be useful. For example if you only ever cast fireball with one Mage at the start of each magic phase for the entire game, while a second Mage has slightly better spells, then you're probably going to get that fireball off every time as your opponent holds back with his scrolls, and so you'll do a fair bit of damage with it, or you might even draw a scroll just for that if you choose a good target like some expensive scouts or a percious warmachine.

That's the kind of tactical decision that makes a magic phase entertaining, scroll caddy or not.

theunwantedbeing
11-04-2009, 15:37
I'm not and have never said that magic has no part in warhammer fantasy. for the record I also play Warhammer Ancient Battles. What I am objecting to is that if you remove dispel scrolls without levelling the magic phase, you could quite easily end up in a game were you have 4 models on each side blasting the hell out of each other with magic - that doesn't fit my idea of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

How exactly would you "level" the magic phase?

Also, a fantasy battle generally includes monsters, knights and wizards.
I'm sure that would be the general concensus if we asked around a lot.
Magic tends to be the integral part of the whole "fantasy" aspect in most peoples eyes I would expect.

dijit80
11-04-2009, 15:48
How exactly would you "level" the magic phase?

Also, a fantasy battle generally includes monsters, knights and wizards.
I'm sure that would be the general concensus if we asked around a lot.
Magic tends to be the integral part of the whole "fantasy" aspect in most peoples eyes I would expect.

Personally I think dispel scrolls work to level the magic phase as best as it works right now. I've never thought of how I would better it.
I think I've been misunderstood. I want magic and magic is integral to warhammer, I just think if we remove dispels scrolls, magic could easily come to dominate far too much and would be in danger of imbalancing the game. If magic scrolls are going to be changed, then the magic phase as a whole needs to be worked on to stop some armies blasting away the other without the opponent having a chance. I advocate balance and right now dispels in my eyes are the only thing keeping magic balanced at the moment, even if its not the best solution.

Finnigan2004
11-04-2009, 16:21
Agreed with both of you EvC and Pavic, there is strategy involved in the magic phase, and in some environments you can get away with medium magic. I think the difference in outlook between us Pavic is that you see scroll caddies as part of the solution to the scaling problems that would not diminish if the scaling were solved. I disagree here because they are just a little too efficient for their points, and some players will always take things that are extremely points efficient. I think they are one of the largest contributors to wrecking the metagame because they exacerbate things by making people who want to get magic through grab a slann and three engines to "solve" things.

Unfortunately, in some of the places that I game, there is a real hate or fear toward magic. Usually this means that with medium magic, I might have the same amount of power dice as my opponent has dispel dice (commonly 6 or so). Additionally, items that gimp magic and scrolls are common. This makes it common for medium or light magic armies to get off nothing all game. This makes it possible to allot enough dice to challenge nearly every successful spell of any consequence, with scrolls for the really important stuff.

Now, this will obviously depend upon the metagame in your area. Around here, this means that on average it will be extremely difficult to get off any amount of magic without going heavy or employing an army that can spam (or those darned dark elf sorceresses with ten million ways to generate dice). You will get off the odd irresistable force, or you will have an opponent botch a dispel; but when power dice and dispel dice are near par, the advantage is very much with the defensive magic. The result is the all or nothing phase where you see armies with a caddie or two or armies that make "Magic: The Gathering" look like magic lite.

mattschuur
11-04-2009, 16:48
I had a friend who thought the same way as the op. Then we played a couple of games where i took 0 dispel scrolls. After 3 games he told me to put them back in. With spells like Curse of the Leper, Pit of shades, Black Horror and gateway (not to mention other 5 and 6 level spells) magic is awfully powerful and can end a game quick. I see people complaining that scrolls nullify their two best spells, well i personally don't believe it. If i have 2 dispel scrolls and i use them on your 2 best spells in the first 2 turns, guess what? You now have 4 turns to get those same spells off with relative ease. All dispel scrolls do is give a non-heavy magic player a chance to either nullify his opponents wizards and/or put himself in a position to lessen the damage.

Insert rant. The game is what you make of it and as the old saying goes when you make your bed you have to lie in it. If you come to a game with 14+ power dice you can't be shocked and outraged when your opponent pulls out 6 dispel scrolls. The same if you bring an all Khorne army and your opponent plops down gunlines or heavy magic. Adjust your tactics and stop whining about something you don't like. Everyone bought their toy soldiers, nobody's has any more right for fun than anyone else.
end rant

matt schuur

Gazak Blacktoof
11-04-2009, 20:41
Only in as much as you manage to pull any miscast results down to a 5-6. The other 9 results don't improve your own magic anymore than hitting the wizard in the face with a cannonball - and in some cases considerably less so.

The pupet also reduces the hurt imposed by your own miscasts too.

EvC
11-04-2009, 21:48
Agreed with both of you EvC and Pavic, there is strategy involved in the magic phase, and in some environments you can get away with medium magic. I think the difference in outlook between us Pavic is that you see scroll caddies as part of the solution to the scaling problems that would not diminish if the scaling were solved. I disagree here because they are just a little too efficient for their points, and some players will always take things that are extremely points efficient. I think they are one of the largest contributors to wrecking the metagame because they exacerbate things by making people who want to get magic through grab a slann and three engines to "solve" things.

But you can't just say as a blanket that they're too cheap. My Warriors of Chaos army pays 170 points for a Scroll Caddy. An Elf army pays 150. That's not cheap for those armies, and the armies that can get a caddy for 100 points really do need a bit of protection.

A scroll caddy that gets rid of two spells per game is not the reason why people max out on magic. What is the reason? I believe you're about to tell us...


Unfortunately, in some of the places that I game, there is a real hate or fear toward magic. Usually this means that with medium magic, I might have the same amount of power dice as my opponent has dispel dice (commonly 6 or so). Additionally, items that gimp magic and scrolls are common. This makes it common for medium or light magic armies to get off nothing all game. This makes it possible to allot enough dice to challenge nearly every successful spell of any consequence, with scrolls for the really important stuff.

So the problem specifically is NOT the caddy. It's the armies that max out on magic defence. Yes, if someone takes 3 level 1 Wizards with 2 scrolls each, then I'm right there with you- those people are actively choosing to make game-destroying decisions. A single caddy though? Hell no.

Freakiq
11-04-2009, 22:01
But you can't just say as a blanket that they're too cheap. My Warriors of Chaos army pays 170 points for a Scroll Caddy. An Elf army pays 150. That's not cheap for those armies, and the armies that can get a caddy for 100 points really do need a bit of protection.

A scroll caddy that gets rid of two spells per game is not the reason why people max out on magic. What is the reason? I believe you're about to tell us...



So the problem specifically is NOT the caddy. It's the armies that max out on magic defence. Yes, if someone takes 3 level 1 Wizards with 2 scrolls each, then I'm right there with you- those people are actively choosing to make game-destroying decisions. A single caddy though? Hell no.

What came first, the scrollcaddie or the cheesy magic army of death?

I never had to use scrollcaddies before people started filling out all their hero choices with casters and bound items.

If they have the right to fill their armies with magic I have every right to fill mine with anti-magic.

The sad thing is they'll try to counter my anti-magic lists by adding more magic, as if that was the universal solution to all problems... :eyebrows:

R Man
11-04-2009, 23:47
How exactly would you "level" the magic phase?

I would say that the key is diminishing returns. So the more a player invests in magic, the less power they get in relation to that investment. But how would this be achived? Or is it simpler to go through the abusive points and simply level out all the magic silliness. Neverthless that should be done first.

Then once the 14+ PD armies are a thing of the past re-examine the balance. Also, medium magic is what we want in, which is why I earlier stated that Wizards can only use one Dispel Scroll per turn each. So that they can still have the same amount of scrolls, but can only scroll a few spells in the phase. For example: 2 cadies, 4 scrolls and 4 DD vs. 2 Lvl 2 wizards, a few power boosters and about 8 PD (inc. boosters). Right now, the defensive player can block about 6 spells per turn (2PD spells) while around we'd expect 1-2 to fail and maybe one to get through. But at one scroll a turn its only 4 spells getting dispelled and the amount getting through is about 2-3.

This will be useful when you need to get some spells off in the turn before lines meet and wizards start being blocked by combat. But it would be useless unless the absurd levels of 12+ PD are capped.

Finnigan2004
12-04-2009, 01:05
As mentioned above, pretty much agreed EvC. The blanket statement that the scroll is a little too cheap is easily supported by the fact that you see them in probably 90% of army lists. Any time something is that widely proliferated, it's probably a little too inexpensive. The caddy is cheap when one takes into account that you generallyhave to shut down the magic phase for a round or two to get your mage hunters into effect, and your main units in combat. One caddy with two scrolls, and about four dispel dice? Of course that's no problem. The problem comes when the arms race starts, as noted.

I should note that I have no problem playing the game with anyone or any army list. I'll enjoy magic heavy or magic light. That said, from experience, dispel scrolls do contribute heavily to the all or nothing approach to magic that competitive environments tend to have. As you say, if one plays with friends and honors gentleman's agreements, then probably between 99-100% of the things that people whine about on warseer are null and void.

Horus38
12-04-2009, 01:12
Ill play the game how i want to within the limits of the rules, i happen to find the magic phase the most compelling part of warhamemr FANTASY. Dont go getting elitist about how YOU think we should all play the game.

Yea Wolf, my call for playing a more balanced army and one not tailored completely magic heavy is obviously forcing my views of how the game should be played down everyone's throats.

To be more concise: play magic heavy if you want, but dispel scrolls are a reasonable counter to them imho.

I do agree that introducing a mechanic (such as it working on a 2+, rather then an absolute) is something the developers may want to look into.

Finnigan2004
12-04-2009, 01:14
If they have the right to fill their armies with magic I have every right to fill mine with anti-magic.

The sad thing is they'll try to counter my anti-magic lists by adding more magic, as if that was the universal solution to all problems... :eyebrows:

This part pretty much sums it up for me. Both sides have the right to load up on magic and anti magic. The solution to more anti magic is more magic, the solution to more magic is more anti magic. Eventually it becomes a case where people going to tournaments either go all or none, which is typically not what the people who favor the scrolls want. As mentioned, doesn't particularly bother me either way-- just a natural consequence.

LictorIntheGrass
12-04-2009, 01:31
*************************************************

Scroll caddies are needed, seeing how it balances the game out versus magic heavy armies, even then it doesn't always work, in my opinion. If you bank your entire army on trying to get spells out, then your in for trouble bub... obviously the reward for success is quite high as well if a LVL 5 or 6 spell goes off, with the reward of doing a lot of hurt.

Removing them altogether would ruin game play for a lot of army types by making this extremely disproportionate. People should be running balanced armies anyways it they are so worried about putting all their eggs in one basket. Remove scrolls, and you'll only see magic heavy armies from now on (besides dwarves) and a few armies won't see play 'cause of their outdated
codex over time.

EvC
12-04-2009, 02:30
The blanket statement that the scroll is a little too cheap is easily supported by the fact that you see them in probably 90% of army lists.

But that doesn't really follow. Just because something is used extensively, does not mean that it is too cheap. It just means that it is the best available option to counter an aspect of the game that is all too common. Lots of Dark Elf armies just take the Ring of Hotek (Which ironically, is definitely too cheap- but that accusation is based on merit ;) ) because it provides decent magic defence by itself; apart from the Staff of Sorcery (which is a poorly thought-out magic item and so rarely taken) there are very few other defensive magic items available unfortunately. As with most magic items and similar abilities in the game, these things are always far nastier when taken in multiples, and could use some kind of scaling- first scroll 25 points, second scroll 30 points, third scroll 35 points etc... but the problem is, magic is still the massive potential game-winner it is, and would need similar scaling up.

Shimmergloom
12-04-2009, 02:35
scrolls are not enough anyway.

The real way to get people to take less scrolls is to give them more ways to take other anti-magic.

Some common items like a MR2 banner or rebound spell shield would help. As would making dispel dice be equal to your magic level or instead basic dispel dice pool are a random d3+1, while for dwarfs it is d3+2.

Shimmergloom
12-04-2009, 02:37
But that doesn't really follow. Just because something is used extensively, does not mean that it is too cheap. It just means that it is the best available option to counter an aspect of the game that is all too common. Lots of Dark Elf armies just take the Ring of Hotek (Which ironically, is definitely too cheap- but that accusation is based on merit ;) ) because it provides decent magic defence by itself; apart from the Staff of Sorcery (which is a poorly thought-out magic item and so rarely taken) there are very few other defensive magic items available unfortunately. As with most magic items and similar abilities in the game, these things are always far nastier when taken in multiples, and could use some kind of scaling- first scroll 25 points, second scroll 30 points, third scroll 35 points etc... but the problem is, magic is still the massive potential game-winner it is, and would need similar scaling up.

I would agree with this. Mork's totem isn't really cheap, you need a bsb or huge unit of overpriced infantry to adequately field it. But you see it in almost every greenskin army, cause you need it to desperately try and fend off magic spammers.

Finnigan2004
12-04-2009, 02:56
Again, pretty much agreed that the problem with dispel scrolls comes in the scaling, although we'll have to disagree on effectiveness for the points spent. When every army everywhere uses multiples of them, they're pretty darned good. Along the lines of your idea, I've long thought that the problem could be solved by making them thirty points. Incidentally, the Ring would probably be quite a bit better with the same points value-- putting it on a champion is just silly.

On Shimmergloom's point, there seems to be new help with every new army book to neuter magic. with the ring, the diadem, the tongue, the standard of sundering, etc.... not so good. These are good and cool ideas, but when the scrolls are stacked on top, they make the scaling problem even greater because then they give the armies ways to make allow their magic to be even more effective-- dark elves with their extra dice, lizards with their engines and slann, daemons with their horrors and such.

The new methods of magic defence are neat, and the new methods of generating extra dice are cool too. Unfortunately, it looks like the designers are not really thinking about the potential of taking four sorceresses with magic items, or a ring of hotek with a bunch of scrolls on top. The only good solution seems to be the same as always-- self regulation. Not only with magic, but with all of the games aspects.

Edit:

To add some clarity, I should mention that my main problem with scrolls is not that they limit magic heavy armies-- they're not that effective there, which is why a lot of people go over the top. What happens generally is that people take enough magic defence to try to limit the magic heavy armies, neuter medium magic, and then end up facing magic heavy armies anyhow.

Lord Inquisitor
12-04-2009, 03:04
I despise scrolls too. Not that I think they're necessarily unbalanced, but I think they're no fun. For two main reasons. Firstly, they're just frustrating, particularly if you don't spam magic out altogether. If I bring four wizards, I'll burn your scrolls pretty quick. But if your one level two finally does something impressive, just "bah, scroll" is quite an anticlimax. Secondly, it encourages magic spam of low-level spells. When was the last time you saw an undead player cackle wildly while they cast Summon Undead Horde? Of course not. They'll cast their low-level spells, again and again. Sure, it's exacerbated by the undead rules, but it's true of most armies. You'd be crazy to go throwing four dice for a high-power spell, particularly early on in the game, there's the risk of miscasting and your opponent will just scroll it anyway. Those earth-shattering spells at the bottom of the spell lores just don't get used much.

+2 dispel dice would be fine, perhaps with an attendant points drop. Then the scrolls would pretty much guarantee a smash-down of low level spells, but high-end spells would have more chance of going off.

Devil
12-04-2009, 03:14
EXACTLY!!!

This is why taking scrolls sucks. It actually encourages people to spam a ton of magic instead of discouraging it. Because you have to have a ton of magic to over come it.

Wanna play empire and have a balanced List with a Warrior priest. Sorry that priest will never get a single prayer off. It will be dispelled unless the warrior priest has a couple of decent mage sidekicks to suck up his dice and scrolls.


So for you people that field them thinking it discourages silly overpowered magical lists it actually has the opposite effect.


This all confirms what I already know. If you insist that scrolls are not broken ask yourself this personal question. Could I be biased with my thinking? Do I regularly run dispel scrolls in all my armies? I wonder if they may be broken since this thread shows that there are a number of people that believe that they are or that the game would be better without them?.

I repeat, dispel scrolls ruin the tactical element of the game. The game is more than balanced without them. To illustrate its like that movie gangs of New York ( a masterpeice of film imo).. When Butcher Bill asks Amsterdam which kind of weapons are allowed in the upcoming battle over the 5 points. Amsterdam declines to take guns. And Bill responds with " good boy". You see the Butcher appreciated that the boy had the pride and honor to actually compete in a fair fight. There is more skill in using a blade. Yet when one person brings a gun to a knife fight it is an omission that they are not as skilled as the other and need the guns to gain the advantage or to even it up. You didn't need to go there, the fight was fair as it was, but now we all have to consider taking guns just because you decided to go there. When someone takes a dispel scroll in my opinion its the same thing, it's like saying " I know I cant make up a good list or play well enough to counter this guy or his list so I will just use the old failsafe dispel scroll as a crutch.

I personally have the pride to say with truth that I have never taken a dispel scroll in a single game I have ever played. I plan to show everyone that you can win without them. So far in my wfb career I have record of 9 wins and 1 loss with my vc. This after just finishing a game not a half an hour ago ( my first game at 2250) against the Lizardmen with a decked out Slaan. I massacred him in turn 5 without a single dispel scroll. I would like to add also that the solitary loss was a technicality. My list was found to be illegal and conceded the fight. I am pretty new to warhammer and made a mistake. I printed off two different rosters off army builder and got the 2 armies mixed and was using two sheets from two different armies. I am not bragging or boasting. It is what it is. The fact that I could win so much without ever taking a scroll speaks for itself.

I challenge you players who continually to over indulge in the taking of dispel scrolls to raise to the next level. Playing without them will only make you a better player I promise you.

kroq'gar
12-04-2009, 03:24
They are very frustrating, as in a balanced army that hasnt spammed magic your phase will be shut down- any high cast spell is scrolled leaving them more disp dice than you have power. Should be more to higher wizards than hoping for total power.

I reacon they should drop the cost to 20 and allow the player to discard two of the opponents casting dice, users choice (multiple scrolls can be used).

This way a mage casting with 5 dice doesnt just get scrolled and the phase ends- if hes still got adequate casting value after the discard then his opponent will still have to attempt a dispel, albiet against a weaker casting.

rodmillard
12-04-2009, 04:03
scrolls are not enough anyway.

The real way to get people to take less scrolls is to give them more ways to take other anti-magic.

Some common items like a MR2 banner or rebound spell shield would help. As would making dispel dice be equal to your magic level or instead basic dispel dice pool are a random d3+1, while for dwarfs it is d3+2.

I disagree that "scrolls are not enough" - scrolls are, unfortunately, more than enough to completely shut down most low-mid magic armies. I do however agree that there should be more anti-magic options available so that scroll caddies are a bit less of a no-brainer.

Having playtested a variety of options at my old club we came to the conclusion that scrolls should be limited (the best solution we came up with was to bump the cost to 30, so that heroes can take 1 and Lords can take 3) but that other items, such as those shimmergloom suggested and a common enchanted item that allows non-casting characters to generate DD needed to be made available.

IMO, however, the best way the game developers could re-balance magic would be to make miscasts both more common and more dangerous, while restricting anti-magic. Unless the whole system is rebalanced, the current set up with ridiculous power dice pools and automatic anti-magic items is the best we are going to get.

dannyfave
12-04-2009, 04:37
It is really funny that a few weeks ago I made a joking argument about dispell scrolls being broken, This was obviously a joke dur to it being a stupid argument that the scroll is broken.

I do belive that the OP is a deamon player though.

R Man
12-04-2009, 06:02
Again, pretty much agreed that the problem with dispel scrolls comes in the scaling, although we'll have to disagree on effectiveness for the points spent. When every army everywhere uses multiples of them, they're pretty darned good.

Perhaps the reason for that is because they are needed. Not because they are overpowered.


Along the lines of your idea, I've long thought that the problem could be solved by making them thirty points.

Which basically cuts out a third of the magic defense. It doesn't solve the problem at all just makes it worse by handing even more power to heavy magic.


On Shimmergloom's point, there seems to be new help with every new army book to neuter magic. with the ring, the diadem, the tongue, the standard of sundering, etc.... not so good. These are good and cool ideas, but when the scrolls are stacked on top, they make the scaling problem even greater

Not really. All these items cost points and as a result, unless you max out on casting characters cannot have too much of either. You cannot have your dispel scrolls and diadem to. And remember that dispel scrolls are one use only, so if you have an item that grants a DD or two each turn then you might take it over a second dispel scroll.


+2 dispel dice would be fine, perhaps with an attendant points drop. Then the scrolls would pretty much guarantee a smash-down of low level spells, but high-end spells would have more chance of going off.

Which is supposed to do what exaclty? Limit extreme magic? It will do nothing of the sort. If anything it would be just as bad as it is now because high level mages will just cast the high level spells with no way to be stopped. It would just encourge players to go for the biggest nasties spell they can without any limiting factor unless a lot of 1's are rolled.


This is why taking scrolls sucks. It actually encourages people to spam a ton of magic instead of discouraging it. Because you have to have a ton of magic to over come it.

The spamming of magic causes people to load up on scrolls. Especially as some armies can do this much better than others.


I repeat, dispel scrolls ruin the tactical element of the game

If aything the drawing out of dispel scrolls is the only thing tactical about the magic phase. Without them there is no clever luring, no feints or draws. No keeping magic in reserve for when the defenses are down.


So far in my wfb career I have record of 9 wins and 1 loss with my vc.

And I think we have the root of the problem. VC are an army capable of fielding a vast amount of spellcasters without compromising their combat ability. Hell, one can easily get 7 DD, more than most others can get without any upgrades. And you have the ability to raise your troops so damage spells don't matter. And Van hels can move them so slowing doesn't matter. Psychology spells (while not the norm) don't matter. Add onto this Balefire and you have an army that is exceptionally good at shrugging of magic. Few other armies have these advantages. Most armies must choose either magic or combat, and losses cannot be replaced. They have to deal with the consequences.

Devil; your logic is essentially this:
If you stop bringing anti-tank weapons, maybe your opponent will stop bringing tanks. But this is fawlty logic, why wouldn't he keep bringing tanks, after all there is nothing to discourage him now. No reason to try a new strategy. No reason to think of something new. If magic players suddenly find no resistance, they are not going to drop their casters now that they are unchallenged.

Dungeon_Lawyer
12-04-2009, 06:45
I'd be all in favour of dispel scrolls being +2 dispel dice, as long as they become non-unique enchanted items instead of arcane ones, and probably around 15 points each. Defense should be cheaper than mindless offense, as the latter is easier to cause.

That would be ok I guess, so long as dispells came with some more risk/ reward--like a "dispell miscast table", or on the positive side, an "irrestible force" like effect which automatically ends your opponites magic phase.

All in all I really like how magic is worked out as it is....dispells scrolls are not broke.

narrativium
12-04-2009, 12:05
Dispel scrolls aren't broken, but players need more defensive options. I don't think they need to be made more expensive. Their use is conditional on the opposing army.

Inferal Gateway is powerful? Sure. It's as much terror weapon as it is devastating in actual use. If my opponent keeps five dice aside for it I've got a 60% chance of using up a scroll on it, which is good because I'm going to need my dispel dice against everything else in his magical arsenal. Is a scroll too cheap in this situation, relative to the cost of the several wizards I'd need to accumulate 5-6 dispel dice in the first place? Absolutely.

But if I'm playing against Vampires instead... they have a lot of magic power and spells which can be cast repeatedly at low values. I've played at least one game, GT tournament-level, against a player who simply rolled one dice at a time to regenerate units. Sure, he was unlucky that game and rolled a lot of twos. But how does a defensive player feel, deciding between a scroll or a dispel dice to dispel a 5+ "raise D6 skeletons" thing, knowing there are eight power dice ready and waiting to cast the exact same spell? Suddenly 25 points is too much.

I think these points are generic to most defending armies, but I'm an Ogre player. Getting five dispel dice costs me 390 points and all my character slots in a 2K game. (okay, you could chalk this up to an Ogre army being underpowered/overcosted if you felt charitable and that way inclined). The possibilities made available to a Warriors player now, Puppet and likewise, do not work well with the Butcher miscast table. So at the minute, scrolls are more like 90 points each for me. It's getting easier for me to stop taking Butchers altogether, keep buying units and just give my opponent more targets to think about.

Now... as I said, I'd like to see more options. Possibly more items for bonus dispel dice (as opposed to the highly specific MR). Possibly more options available to non-wizards. But the magic phase has been getting more powerful recently, and the scroll is very useful right now.

Shimmergloom
12-04-2009, 12:42
An item to generate dispel dice that was a common item, would be a good start, but the problem would be the pricing.

The dark elf one is like 30pts. That means the character can't even take it and a scroll. Even something that seems cooler like the sneaky staff is 50pts. So congrats the vc player with 14 power dice, now has 13. And instead of 3 dispel dice, you have 4. That'll turn the tide.

So it'd be nice to have generic dispel dice generating items, but knowing the way they are priced, they still wouldn't displace scrolls.

I would just think that something like an MR 2 banner or rebound talisman(like the old shiney baubles, best item ever) would really make those offensive spellcasters think twice and would really help protect your more important units, even better than 2 scrolls could.

EvC
12-04-2009, 13:11
This is why taking scrolls sucks. It actually encourages people to spam a ton of magic instead of discouraging it. Because you have to have a ton of magic to over come it.

I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

It would probably be the worst series of armies and games ever played.


Wanna play empire and have a balanced List with a Warrior priest. Sorry that priest will never get a single prayer off. It will be dispelled unless the warrior priest has a couple of decent mage sidekicks to suck up his dice and scrolls.

The Warrior Priest will never get that single prayer off against an army which has no magic defence whatsoever, short of an opponent rolling a double one to dispel. If anything this represents a flaw with the magic system, rather than a fault of scrolls.


So for you people that field them thinking it discourages silly overpowered magical lists it actually has the opposite effect.

When taken in larger numbers, say three or more, I agree. My main army last year was Vampire Counts, with about 7 power dice and 2 bound items. As the year progressed I noticed many of my opponents going a bit crazy on the magic defence side of things, one main opponent regularly bringing three scrolls on top of 5 dispel dice. Games against that list, Dwarfs with 4 scrolls, a spell destroyer and +2 to dispel? Yeah, I got no magic off. I don't think the scroll is the problem there, but more the player's own crappy "wah I don't want my opponent having any fun" attitude. As the year went on I had to add a bit more magic to get through the large numbers of dispel dice, scrolls and hotekky goodness I faced: I actually enjoyed playing opponents with just a scroll caddy though- it's only 2 auto-dispels and 3 dispel dice, that should not be and is noy a problem for moderate magic lists.


This all confirms what I already know. If you insist that scrolls are not broken ask yourself this personal question. Could I be biased with my thinking? Do I regularly run dispel scrolls in all my armies? I wonder if they may be broken since this thread shows that there are a number of people that believe that they are or that the game would be better without them?

Are you really this blinkered? At no point do you ask yourself the same question, which surely must apply to you since you are arguing the other side and don't use scrolls. I will show this to you in more detail later on.


I know I cant make up a good list or play well enough to counter this guy or his list so I will just use the old failsafe dispel scroll as a crutch.

Damn straight. I know that I can't make a Warriors of Chaos army list that can hold up to Spirit of the Forge, there is simply no way (short of not fielding any of those lovely new plastic Knights that I just finished painting up)... actually, there is one possible way. If you say I can't take a couple of dispel scrolls, then the solution would be for me to go magic heavy myself.


So far in my wfb career I have record of 9 wins and 1 loss with my vc. This after just finishing a game not a half an hour ago ( my first game at 2250) against the Lizardmen with a decked out Slaan. I massacred him in turn 5 without a single dispel scroll. ...The fact that I could win so much without ever taking a scroll speaks for itself.

Lol, you're actually serious. You're using an army that contains a lot of magic defence just for turning up. Let me guess, you have 6DD and how many Balefires?


I challenge you players who continually to over indulge in the taking of dispel scrolls to raise to the next level. Playing without them will only make you a better player I promise you.

Playing without them with my current army would be suicide. I could get away with it with my Vampire Counts army, like you do, because the army has lots of magic defence by default, access to magic defence items like Balefire, and can return dead troops back to unlife. Sadly, all abilities that are denied to most other armies! I promise you, if this were 6th edition Hordes of Chaos, where my army got bonus dispel dice just for fielding units with the Mark of Khorne, I'd not be using any scrolls either.

This is what you just don't get. In moderation, 1 or 2 scrolls is fine, and does no-one any harm. Hell, yesterday my scroll caddy actually managed to cast his one spell twice (Once through a miscast, the other through opponent rolling double 1 to dispel), resulting in the destruction of a unit of Corsairs with a Sorceress in it. Someone bringing 6 scrolls? Yeah, they're a tool. As is often the case, when people take things to extremes, the game suffers.

Desert Rain
12-04-2009, 13:48
I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

It would probably be the worst series of armies and games ever played
So true, without scrolls it would be mage-fest deluxe.

If you're playing a huge horde army like ~200 models att 2000pts you probably won't need scrolls, there are simply no spell that can deal you a lot of damage. On the other hand though try playing a successful High Elf army without any scrolls. Most damage spells kill a ton of elves because they are T3 and poor save and are few in number.

Finnigan2004
12-04-2009, 14:39
I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

It would probably be the worst series of armies and games ever played.


I agree that this is the case, if people simply eliminate dispel scrolls without some sort of replacement or control. Of course, if it were my campaign, and I eliminated scrolls, no one would be bringing more than about eight power dice (I'd balance the restrictions). More likely though, I'd make scrolls an amount of bound dispel dice that could be split amongst various dispels. Make people roll for it, rather than just say "scroll" when a big spell finally goes off.

Dispel scrolls should not be the only absolute certainty in the game, and I'm not buying the argument that they can be stopped by rolling an absolute power-- an event that is less likely than a miscast. To translate it into magic haters :p, trying to roll an absolute power to secure a success is about as strategic as your opponent trying to roll an infernal gateway on spell generation to win a game.

As an aside, for those of you who really hate magic and buy into "I have to take scrolls because magic will annihilate my army" mode, head over to the warhammer forum and type "suicide elves" into the search engine. You will probably be interested in the result, and it might be an army design that interests you.

dijit80
12-04-2009, 14:41
I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

It would probably be the worst series of armies and games ever played.


This was exactly my point a few pages back, and I got slammed down. Though i have to confess you've said it better!


Having playtested a variety of options at my old club we came to the conclusion that scrolls should be limited (the best solution we came up with was to bump the cost to 30, so that heroes can take 1 and Lords can take 3) but that other items, such as those shimmergloom suggested and a common enchanted item that allows non-casting characters to generate DD needed to be made available.

IMO, however, the best way the game developers could re-balance magic would be to make miscasts both more common and more dangerous, while restricting anti-magic. Unless the whole system is rebalanced, the current set up with ridiculous power dice pools and automatic anti-magic items is the best we are going to get.

This sounds very sensible, I like it and would be interested in seeing how it could work.

EvC
12-04-2009, 14:59
As an aside, for those of you who really hate magic and buy into "I have to take scrolls because magic will annihilate my army" mode, head over to the warhammer forum and type "suicide elves" into the search engine. You will probably be interested in the result, and it might be an army design that interests you.

Why do you say that as if someone who says that is either misinformed or lying? It really does you no credit whatsoever. It's a simple FACT, but this isn't the first time I've had to argue a case based on both theory and real-game experience on this forum.

The whole point of suicide elves is that is is one style of army that can sometimes get away with having no magic defence (Although the Ring of Hotek does pop up in some variants), because Dark Elves are a very cost-effective army themselves. Try doing that with Warriors of Chaos! (And actually I did once, 80 Marauders, Stubborn banner, no wizards, Black Tongue and Collar of Khorne as my only magic defence: smashed in three turns flat by Beastmen with 9 power dice), As ever, context is everything.

Finnigan2004
12-04-2009, 15:19
Why do you say that as if someone who says that is either misinformed or lying? It really does you no credit whatsoever. It's a simple FACT, but this isn't the first time I've had to argue a case based on both theory and real-game experience on this forum.

The whole point of suicide elves is that is is one style of army that can sometimes get away with having no magic defence (Although the Ring of Hotek does pop up in some variants), because Dark Elves are a very cost-effective army themselves. Try doing that with Warriors of Chaos! (And actually I did once, 80 Marauders, Stubborn banner, no wizards, Black Tongue and Collar of Khorne as my only magic defence: smashed in three turns flat by Beastmen with 9 power dice), As ever, context is everything.


Huh, someone who says what is misinformed or lying? Not sure what the problem is here EvC, but it's not an accusation of you being misinformed or lying. Simply an alternative way of thinking about the magic phase that challenges common "internet wisdom". There are several players trying it out with other armies as well, and that is worth looking into. Can every army make this style of list? Of course not. Is there a risk that in doing so you will get beat down by heavy magic? Of course. Is it worth trying out to see if it's viable? Depends on your perspective.

Not sure what the FACT that you are referring to is, but there are lots of people here arguing based on experience and theory. As pointed out in many of the previous posts, I actually agree with most of what you said with a few disagreements. Nothing there was directed at you at all in fact, and flying off the handle here really does you no credit.

TheDarkDuke
12-04-2009, 15:25
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
It is really funny that a few weeks ago I made a joking argument about dispell scrolls being broken, This was obviously a joke dur to it being a stupid argument that the scroll is broken.

I do belive that the OP is a deamon player though.


open up his public info page. he plays high elves and vampire counts 2 of the more abusive magic heavy lists ironically enough:rolleyes:

blurred
12-04-2009, 15:31
I also have to disagree with the OP. Scrolls are the only way to go for some armies. Luckily GW has recently invented interesting new magic items to newer books which will hopefully restrict magic going over the top.

About a month ago I took part in a local tournament with no scrolls whatsoever. Luckily, Empire has the option to take an Arch Lector and the Rod of Power to make up for the loss of scrolls. Without the 8 dispel dice (2 from the AL, 2 from 2 lvl 2's and 2 from the RoP) which I usually had against magic heavy armies I would've been overran with magical firepower. To press the point even further, my meagre 6 PD were able to smash my opponent in the last game: he wielded a WoC army with only one wizard (no scrolls) and I managed to get Spirit of the Forge for my Battle Wizard with the Wizard's staff. Was I a good tactician? Nope. He had three dispel dice against the four dice I used to cast the SotF; it was hopeless for him.

Anyway, what I'm saying is what others have already said: scroll caddys are only a symptom. The whole magic system should be revised so that they would become obsolete.

Brother Siccarius
12-04-2009, 16:25
People will play magic heavy armies weather or not there are dispell scrolls to keep a leash in them. They're one use items, and quickly become useless in a battle against magic spamming armies or even balanced magic armies. Not even Dispell heavy armies can match a Magic Heavy army in number of dice or power.

You almost have to have a dispell caddy because otherwise you'll get rolled around by even weakly magic'd armies.

dodicula
12-04-2009, 17:30
Did someone got tired of playing your Super Vampire lord/Slann/Fateweaver and decide to teach you a lesson? If you don't like people taking 8 dispel scrolls, perhaps you shouldn't invest so heavily in Magic.

Classical Mushroom
12-04-2009, 18:43
I think dispel scrolls are fine. There are alot of magic heavy armies out there and dispel scrolls offer protection so they don't get blown to bits by a couple of people in their PJs, or a giant toad on a stone toilet.

Magic is random however it does not mean that scrolls should be too. In fact it is nice to have something you can rely on in the magic phase.

Rioghan Murchadha
12-04-2009, 18:46
Just to chip in, I play an entirely non-magic army, (DoW, and Empire are the two lists I use to run my 11th century Irish list.) and I STILL hate dispel scrolls and wish they would go away. (I also never, ever, take any)

People whine about how magic is so utterly devastating, and how you should be able to instantly and irrevocably stop it. Frankly, shooting, and close combat are just as, if not more devastating to a great number of armies, and I don't see any anti-shooting, or dispel hand-to-hand combat scrolls out there. My army consists of entirely bog-standard human troopers. They get murdered by shooting, they get murdered by magic, they get absolutely curb-stomped in CC by anything else in the game that has better than human stats (most of the other armies out there), and they also get murdered by psychology. Somehow I still manage to win games without the guarantee of stopping anything my opponent does.

Dispel scrolls have been around for a long time yes, but remember, in earlier editions (not 6th) spells were cast automatically as long as you had the requisite number of power cards. (Not to mention the fact that your opponenent could attempts as many dispels as he had dispel cards that turn regardless of having a mage or not) In that context they were more than fair. Now, with having to pay through the nose for PD, having to roll to see if you actually get the spell off, and having to deal with miscasts, the auto-dispel is a tad cheap for what it does.

BTW, for all those lovers of hyperbole out there, do a bit of research and get back to me with how many armies can actually come up with 19PD at 2000 pts.

badgeraddict
12-04-2009, 18:51
Dispel Scrolls are a much needed safe guard against large casting values you are not confident in dispelling.

pootleberry
12-04-2009, 18:52
I can understand that you may get frustrated by armies blocking your powerful spells, but if they didn't those same players would get mightly peeved with your powerful sorcerors blasting their units apart. Let's face it, Magic Missiles are very powerful - auto hits! There are usually multiple MMs per Lore so letting too many of these spells pound your lines for too long just makes for a boring game from their end.

If someone takes too many dispel scrolls then just cast loads of spells to ensure they burn through them, and then you'll probably have a decisive last couple of turns.

I think dispel scrolls are fair for those armies that struggle facing armies with powerful magic.

Kerill
12-04-2009, 18:53
You almost have to have a dispell caddy because otherwise you'll get rolled around by even weakly magic'd armies.

Rolled around by weak magic armies? Are you serious? Does that D6S4 magic missile hurt your army so badly? That 100 point caster casting a spell you can dispel with a defence you get by default or might fail to cast.

Compare that to 100 points of handgunners or DE crossbowmen, really doesn't compare does it.

Most armies magic struggles to get its points back (Tzeentch daemons, VC and Teclis aside) in fact it almost never does make it's points back. Magic users are still useful but some of these outrageous claims about magic destroying a whole army (above examples aside to some extent) are nonsense.

isidril93
12-04-2009, 18:57
i take about 2 (on top of about 7 DD)...fact is they can only be used once and once used greatly limit your magic defense

thats how important they are

LictorIntheGrass
12-04-2009, 20:02
Rolled around by weak magic armies? Are you serious? Does that D6S4 magic missile hurt your army so badly? That 100 point caster casting a spell you can dispel with a defence you get by default or might fail to cast.

Compare that to 100 points of handgunners or DE crossbowmen, really doesn't compare does it.

Most armies magic struggles to get its points back (Tzeentch daemons, VC and Teclis aside) in fact it almost never does make it's points back. Magic users are still useful but some of these outrageous claims about magic destroying a whole army (above examples aside to some extent) are nonsense.

I disagree, a precise spell has often turn the battle around for an opponent of mine. On top of a group of handgunners bearing down on my army. Your comparison is pointless.

You aren't getting the point of magic users, they simply shift the balance from whatever the odds are to overwhelmingly in the favor of the opponent. I've seen this happen many times, spells that reduce the size of a bunch of units or modify a unit so they massacre a enemy unit.

Scrolls are there so a melee army doesn't get smacked around by Walls of Fire, Pit of Shades, or Cleansing Flare... I really don't understand why so many people are complaining. If you raise the level of miscast, it won't make any differences, it would be like you still had dispell scrolls ANYWAYS.

To solve this? We'd have to rethink the system. Fine get rid of the scrolls, but there isn't an easy answer. Personally, I believe first that all spell casters should be equal cost and spells be sorted out in terms of offensive, defensive, and tactical, then adjust casting cost that way and penalties. Next step is to balance out number dice people have, so that a Wood Elve player with his 4 dispell dice and 5 power dice, isn't being swamped down by a Vampire player with 6 dispell and 9 power dice. See where I'm going? I hope so. Seems there's probably a bit of bias of complaining for players that can ACTUALLY run a magic heavy armies.

Lord Inquisitor
12-04-2009, 21:05
Perhaps the reason for that is because they are needed. Not because they are overpowered.

Who said they were overpowered? They've been a part of the game for ever now. They work, they're just no fun. Just because something is balanced - at least as far as the metagame - doesn't make it a good idea.


Which is supposed to do what exaclty? Limit extreme magic? It will do nothing of the sort. If anything it would be just as bad as it is now because high level mages will just cast the high level spells with no way to be stopped. It would just encourge players to go for the biggest nasties spell they can without any limiting factor unless a lot of 1's are rolled.
No, it wouldn't limit extreme magic, but indeed, we might see those high-end spells being used - and there would be an increase in the number of miscasts. If scrolls were changed so they weren't an auto-dispel, then powerful spells could be cast. This requires powerful wizards and rolling lots of dice - which can always fail, leaving the defender sitting on a big pile of dispel dice. In any case, you'd have a more fun game - more dice, more miscasts, more gigantic spells of doom rather than oooh, fireball again. You might see people taking a level 4 wizard rather than three level 2s.


If aything the drawing out of dispel scrolls is the only thing tactical about the magic phase. Without them there is no clever luring, no feints or draws. No keeping magic in reserve for when the defenses are down.
Have you played this game? There are these things called "dispel dice". Every magic phase involves trying to decide whether to draw out the enemy's dispel dice and if you're defending you need to weigh up whether to hold back dispel dice for bound items or a last ditch mega spell...

Indeed, the use of scrolls actually removes part of this - you can always rely on a scroll to bail you out even if you do use up all of your dice too soon.

"You have dispelled all of my spells so far, but I have been saving this power stone - I cast the Great Spell of Doom!"
"Scroll"

Wow that was fun.

You can have your cake and eat it with scrolls - you can dispel the early spells and if he does have an ace up his sleeve you can just scroll it. Since your opponent can scroll AND use his dice, if your opponent uses a scroll, you've wasted your dice AND he still has a pool of dice to sit on. It's not like we have "power scrolls" which allow us to automatically cast a spell at any power level, why should we have dispel scrolls that affect any power level of spell?


And I think we have the root of the problem. VC are an army capable of fielding a vast amount of spellcasters without compromising their combat ability.
I can tell you from experience, you can bring as many scrolls against me and as a VC player I'm happy. Bring all you want! You're wasting points better spent on other things, because I'm just going to keep casting Invocation again and again and again. Perhaps a vanhels once in a while, but if you scroll it, I'll just cast it again.

Saying "of course he wants rid of scrolls, he's a VC player"... pff. Scrolls benefit a VC player far more than his opponent.


If you stop bringing anti-tank weapons, maybe your opponent will stop bringing tanks. But this is fawlty logic, why wouldn't he keep bringing tanks, after all there is nothing to discourage him now. No reason to try a new strategy. No reason to think of something new. If magic players suddenly find no resistance, they are not going to drop their casters now that they are unchallenged.
Noone is saying that scrolls shouldn't exist, or there shouldn't be magic defences. The problem is that scrolls are far more valuble against powerful spells and there is no chance of failure. Both of these things encourage magic spam of low-level spells to push past the scrolls.

Scrolls should be different, not got rid of altogether. They work, they're a necessary part of the game. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be improved upon.

narrativium
12-04-2009, 23:48
That last post - emphasising the fun of using the item, rather than the balance issue - is very convincing.

I don't mind the idea of scrolls, because it suggests a wizard has prepared for a conflict and has several shots at simply blocking an enemy caster. But I like the idea that a veto shouldn't be absolute, or that magical defence could be reworked for one big spell vs. several small spells.

Dexter099
13-04-2009, 00:07
The Dispel scroll adds another layer of strategy to the magic phase without breaking it.

R Man
13-04-2009, 00:47
Who said they were overpowered? They've been a part of the game for ever now. They work, they're just no fun. Just because something is balanced - at least as far as the metagame - doesn't make it a good idea.

Someone before said they were too cheap for what they did, i.e overpowered for their points.


No, it wouldn't limit extreme magic, but indeed, we might see those high-end spells being used - and there would be an increase in the number of miscasts. If scrolls were changed so they weren't an auto-dispel, then powerful spells could be cast. This requires powerful wizards and rolling lots of dice - which can always fail, leaving the defender sitting on a big pile of dispel dice. In any case, you'd have a more fun game - more dice, more miscasts, more gigantic spells of doom rather than oooh, fireball again. You might see people taking a level 4 wizard rather than three level 2s.

I disagree, why would magic players suddenly start rolling an excessive level of dice just because they can. Remember that it is only recently that many armies have gotten ways other than scrolls to stop magic, so against most forces wizards will still roll only what they need to beat your dispel and the casting value.


Have you played this game?

Yes it's quite fun. You should try it sometime.


There are these things called "dispel dice". Every magic phase involves trying to decide whether to draw out the enemy's dispel dice and if you're defending you need to weigh up whether to hold back dispel dice for bound items or a last ditch mega spell...

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I was in the presence of a great comedian. Unless a player is going magic heavy themselves or is dwarvern, they will only have around 3-4 dispel dice. Even only an adverage magic force will have twice the power dice, if not thrice the number. When you have that kind of superiority tactics cease to be important and the magic phase becomes the enchanted equivalent of beating the snot out of your opponent.


Indeed, the use of scrolls actually removes part of this - you can always rely on a scroll to bail you out even if you do use up all of your dice too soon.

"You have dispelled all of my spells so far, but I have been saving this power stone - I cast the Great Spell of Doom!"
"Scroll"

Wow that was fun.

As opposed to:
"I have manovred you into my trap! Next turn you shall be crushed by my superior tactics"
"Wait! Pit of shades. Your unit dies. Sorry."

And in your example why does the player use his greatest spell when he still suspects the opponent has scrolls? What would happen if he did this later in the battle? Or after milking them out before hand? Using an especially boneheaded example is not a good argument.
As I have already stated, scrolls are so important because DD are so limp. 4 is simply not enough. The scrolls might also seem cheap, but you are also playing for the wizard to carry them who will be unlikely to do anything other than dispel or perhaps die, not to mention the lost hero spot.


I can tell you from experience, you can bring as many scrolls against me and as a VC player I'm happy. Bring all you want! You're wasting points better spent on other things, because I'm just going to keep casting Invocation again and again and again. Perhaps a vanhels once in a while, but if you scroll it, I'll just cast it again.

Saying "of course he wants rid of scrolls, he's a VC player"... pff. Scrolls benefit a VC player far more than his opponent.

You couldn't have missed the point more if I was on a different forum. The point was that since Devil has been playing VC, and army that is very good at absorbing damage and magic, he doesn't have any real apreciation for how much other armies need scrolls.


Noone is saying that scrolls shouldn't exist, or there shouldn't be magic defences. The problem is that scrolls are far more valuble against powerful spells and there is no chance of failure. Both of these things encourage magic spam of low-level spells to push past the scrolls.

Thats because they need to be as powerful spells are well, that much more powerful. Remember that without them players who aren't magic heavy would have no way to stop them. The high level of dice thrown to cast these spells basically rules out any attempt to dispel. At this point all a player can hope for is that their opponent rolls a miscast. And thats not fun.


Scrolls should be different, not got rid of altogether. They work, they're a necessary part of the game. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be improved upon.

Not once have you considered that magic might be the problem. And your so-called improvement still leaves the DD woefully inadequate. In reality this is two or even more problems acting together, and targeting one will always be insufficient.

TeddyC
13-04-2009, 01:37
"I have manovred you into my trap! Next turn you shall be crushed by my superior tactics"
"Wait! Pit of shades. Your unit dies. Sorry."

for THAT reason dispel scrolls arent overpowered/unbalanced.

Rioghan Murchadha
13-04-2009, 02:39
Scrolls are there so a melee army doesn't get smacked around by Walls of Fire, Pit of Shades, or Cleansing Flare... I really don't understand why so many people are complaining. If you raise the level of miscast, it won't make any differences, it would be like you still had dispell scrolls ANYWAYS.


In response to the underlined quote, exactly what is there in the game to stop my 'magic army', or 'shooting army', or 'maneuverable army' from getting smacked around by the melee army in CC?

I don't disagree that getting nuked to death with no ability to stop it isn't fun, but then, neither is getting shot to death, or fighting an army of units that are so godly in CC that you don't stand a chance against them short of rolling multiple yahtzees at once.

As I said before, Dispel Scrolls would be fine as long as I could get a scroll that instantly negates shooting or CC results from one unit for one turn, and stack multiples on my characters.

This seems to be just another example of people playing WFB who by rights should be playing ancients or historicals. People who fixate on the 'battles' part of the title, and ignore the 'fantasy' part that acts as a modifer to 'battles'. There are many of us who don't really want to just play a game where we smash blocks of grunts into each other in a disorganized scrum in the middle of the board to see who wins.

LictorIntheGrass
13-04-2009, 03:11
WOW okay Rioghan... 'Gimme a scoll to negate shooting and combat too.' Are we five year olds?

You pay 150 to 300pts for a caster, who has one of those spells I just mentioned in post 105, and lets suppose they are likely to get that spell off every turn... Does that justify their cost? Suppose they got it off 5 out of 6 turns. Still cost justified? how about 4 out of 6? 3 out of 6? How about 2 out of 6!? Still, they'd earn back 3x to 4x times their points. Game should and is about strategy on the battle field, not about magic as a sure way to blast your opponent, because not all codexes are created equal bub. Armies have different strengths to play on, magic might be one of those. So whats the strategy of a weak magic army hmm? Just take it like a skinny boy in prison? NO, you deny them and that's the roll of the dispell scroll.

Kerill
13-04-2009, 03:15
In response to the underlined quote, exactly what is there in the game to stop my 'magic army', or 'shooting army', or 'maneuverable army' from getting smacked around by the melee army in CC?

- Absolutely nothing. 400 points not spent on a lord level caster is 2 or 3 spare large blocks of infantry to get into combat. And despite all that R-man and Lictor seem to believed a level 4 wizard is not going to be able to nuke even one of those units. Pit of shades? Even against saurus half of a decent sized unit will survive. Against humans/elves you will struggle to cause a panic test on the unit. Wall of fire? 5 S4 hits, wow, scary. Just don't move that unit, you have three others to do the same job anyway and your opponents level 4 mage can't cast another spell if he wants to keep it active. Also I'm not sure how these "weak magic" armies are getting a 12+ spell off at all without a lord level caster- must be a strong magic army then.

I don't disagree that getting nuked to death with no ability to stop it isn't fun, but then, neither is getting shot to death, or fighting an army of units that are so godly in CC that you don't stand a chance against them short of rolling multiple yahtzees at once.

As I said before, Dispel Scrolls would be fine as long as I could get a scroll that instantly negates shooting or CC results from one unit for one turn, and stack multiples on my characters.

This seems to be just another example of people playing WFB who by rights should be playing ancients or historicals. People who fixate on the 'battles' part of the title, and ignore the 'fantasy' part that acts as a modifer to 'battles'. There are many of us who don't really want to just play a game where we smash blocks of grunts into each other in a disorganized scrum in the middle of the board to see who wins.

-Agree completely


As for R-man's "I have moved my unit into position and next turn will crush you with my superior tactics Wait pit of shades",
in fact is this

"I have used the extra 400 points I saved by not going magic heavy to have more units which has allowed me to get into a better position. Wait! You have managed to get me to waste my dispel dice on other spells and drawn out my scrolls so you kill less than half of one of my units to negate my tactical advantage".

Seems your opponent used combined arms tactics (of which magic is one in warhammer) to beat you.

And really from the start of the battle you know exactly what spells your opponent has, if you can't plan for casualties if you have ****-poor magic defence then you are hardly much of a tactician.

LictorIntheGrass
13-04-2009, 03:42
Seems I'm beating my head against the wall on this one. Good thing none of you guys are on the rules developing team. I'm going to roll a fatty and go chill. Complain all you want.

R Man
13-04-2009, 07:39
Absolutely nothing. 400 points not spent on a lord level caster is 2 or 3 spare large blocks of infantry to get into combat

Only if you play a horde army. Most armies will get fewer units from this. And those soldiers will start to crowd each other and cause problems of their own.


And despite all that R-man and Lictor seem to believed a level 4 wizard is not going to be able to nuke even one of those units. Pit of shades? Even against saurus half of a decent sized unit will survive.

Are you claiming loosing 50% of a saurus unit is not a big deal? That could be a few hundred points worth. And the Wizard can keep casting spells if he wants. So he could quite easily do other nasty things to the rest of your army.


Wall of fire? 5 S4 hits, wow, scary. Just don't move that unit, you have three others to do the same job anyway

So the 3 others will also coincidently be in the right place at the right time to plug the gap without any interference form the other 3 spells the wizard has or any troops that may be guarding said wizard?


your opponents level 4 mage can't cast another spell if he wants to keep it active.

He can cast it last.


Also I'm not sure how these "weak magic" armies are getting a 12+ spell off at all without a lord level caster- must be a strong magic army then.

Err…is this even relevant? Were weak magic armies suggested to be casting 12+ spells? Did I skip a post or something?


"I have used the extra 400 points I saved by not going magic heavy to have more units which has allowed me to get into a better position. Wait! You have managed to get me to waste my dispel dice on other spells and drawn out my scrolls so you kill less than half of one of my units to negate my tactical advantage".

Seems your opponent used combined arms tactics (of which magic is one in warhammer) to beat you.

This is the funniest thing I read today! You should realise my statements here were ironic. The original statement exaggerated the effect of dispel scrolls without taking into account reality, so to point this out I cooked up an exaggerated response to this.


And really from the start of the battle you know exactly what spells your opponent has, if you can't plan for casualties if you have ****-poor magic defence then you are hardly much of a tactician.

And how are we to get this magic defence without scrolls? As I said before many armies are very limited in their DD capabilities. And how are we supposed to plan for casualties when it’s all done by ‘invisible’ rolls. We know exactly how many people a cannon is likely to kill, or a unit of handgunners, but until those magic dice have been rolled we have no idea what will happen. Not only that but much of a wizards power does not come from damage but from their ability to screw you over. And many wizard lords are mounted on fliers so they can almost always be where they want to be. You have to take into account operational realities.


Wait…

I have the solution!

Remember in the old VC book how the invocation had 3 values? I think that all spells should have 3 values, a weak one, a strong one and a medium one (you’ll see why in a bit). Now when a wizard rolls his PD he checks the result against the values. That’s the strength of the spell. For example if a fire wizard rolls a 10 on two dice, he gets the 2nd level of fireball (2d6 S4 hits). This allows wizards to take advantage of higher rolls or gives them a reason to invest more PD in a spell, while for higher spells (originally) giving them a weaker version of it so even if the Wizard fails its not a complete loss.

When it comes to dispelling the player rolls their DD and then subtracts this value from the casting value. Continuing the example from above, if the dispeller rolls a 4 they take 4 from 10 and gets 6. That’s a weaker effect (only 1d6). If the dispel roll takes the value below the casting value of the lowest level the spell fails. The idea here is to make it so dispel dice will always be useful and have an effect even if you don’t roll well and its still worth throwing a few at a big spell to lessen the result. It would also stop spamming single dice spells as even one dice will bring it below casting value.

Irresitable force and Miscasts apply as normal.

It would also give more flexibility with the DD as it’s less all or nothing. You can make the choice of either trying to block a spell all together or simply weakening it.

I’m not sure how it would affect being magic heavy and magic in general though, and obviously casting values and spells would have to be reworked.

zoggin-eck
13-04-2009, 07:48
seriously, have we only just noticed dispel scrolls? They have been essentially the same since 4th edition (or earlier? I can't remember). They are simply useful, the offset being at the cost of other cool items, or being killed before using them.

I have never had a problem using, or facing them, even when people seem to think they must have two for at least one mage.

Kerill
13-04-2009, 08:43
You almost have to have a dispell caddy because otherwise you'll get rolled around by even weakly magic'd armies.

@R Man, yes you missed this post ^

Apparently weak magic armies are UBER as well.

BTW half a saurus unit will be maybe 100 points and that is about the best case scenario with the spell (treemen and Kairos aside). That's from a 350 point caster who won't be casting any other spells that turn since they have used all 4 of their dice. And few armies can't muster at least 5 dispel dice.

And for 400 points any army in the game can get at least 2 decent sized units for 400 points, and quite a few armies can get more.

If you are crowding out your own units then maybe you are having issues quite aside from the magic phase.

It seems from your last point that your issues are with VC but all your comments are far more general as if all heavy magic armies are equally bad.

Ward.
13-04-2009, 08:52
Anyone else feel the same way or similar?

I feel the same way about 4+ ward saves.

As a side note, I'm one of the people that load up on dispel scrolls. Only against one person in particular though.

R Man
13-04-2009, 09:17
@R Man, yes you missed this post ^

Apparently weak magic armies are UBER as well.

Well, I won't stand by that. More magic than that is needed. Even against someone with no defense thats not too bad.


BTW half a saurus unit will be maybe 100 points and that is about the best case scenario with the spell (treemen and Kairos aside). That's from a 350 point caster who won't be casting any other spells that turn since they have used all 4 of their dice. And few armies can't muster at least 5 dispel dice.

But try 100 points a turn for 4 turns, and the movement cost too. And I would expect a wizard lord to have something that boosts his PD or casting reliability so you can expect at least one more spell. And 5 DD are pleanty against one caster, but a magic heavy army will have several casters to draw them out and you have to account for the cost of getting these DD's in the first place.


And for 400 points any army in the game can get at least 2 decent sized units for 400 points, and quite a few armies can get more.

Yes, but 2 units are not the same as 4 units. Not to mention that we've all forgotten about the cost of a combat lord that you would expect here to, so its not as clear as saying that the other player has 400 extra points. You also have to remember that apart from miscasts the wizard will rarely have to compromise themselves in combat and if mounted on a flier it's 400 or so points that you probably won't get.


If you are crowding out your own units then maybe you are having issues quite aside from the magic phase.

I mean in relation to the position of the wizard.


It seems from your last point that your issues are with VC but all your comments are far more general as if all heavy magic armies are equally bad.

I don't think I was takling about VC much except when it was relevent. If I did so it was unintended. However its worth noting that some armies are more dangerous with magic than others and the rest of the army composition can have quite an influence. Take Empire for example: They can be nasty with full mages, but with the consequences (LD lacking) its not too bad, but with a gunline it becomes a monster due to the sheer offensive power. VC can be nasty on the other hand because they can still fight in combat so rushing them doesn't always stop them completely. WE mages with their abilities to move terrain and such, while once again not too bad in itself can become dredful when fighting an entire army dedicated to avoiding you.

Caine Mangakahia
13-04-2009, 10:53
Dispel scrolls should fail on a dice roll of one would be a nice balance, it happens to so many other supposedly useful items.
Even as a VC player (non VC posters please don't explode) I'll take one or two (especially vs HE WoC &LM armies).

PSW
13-04-2009, 11:09
The obvious answer to people who don't like dispel scrolls is, imo, reducing the power of magic in general. There just seems to be too many spells which can annihilate a unit or swing a battle completely. Like a game I had a year ago against a DE player (old book) with my Skaven. I had been pretty much running this guy off the board, most of his units were dead or running, but he still had a few crossbowman and his sorceresses. Long story short, last turn he managed to finally cast Black Horror against my clanrats. I rolled appalingly for the toughness tests, inevitably failed the LD test and fled, along with my warlord, bsb and a warlock engineer. An awful lot of points lost on one measly little spell, which undid what had, until that point, been a comfortable victory.

Point is, imo, magic needs to be seriously toned down, and given more of a supporting roll. There are just too many ways to seriouly change the game through a few dicerolls as it stands. Maybe if magic wasn't so potent, we could get rid of dispel scrolls, but at the moment they're the only surefire defense against "roll some dice to win the game" tactics.

Mireadur
13-04-2009, 12:06
too many eggs in the same basket!

Brother Siccarius
13-04-2009, 12:33
@R Man, yes you missed this post ^

Apparently weak magic armies are UBER as well.

BTW half a saurus unit will be maybe 100 points and that is about the best case scenario with the spell (treemen and Kairos aside). That's from a 350 point caster who won't be casting any other spells that turn since they have used all 4 of their dice. And few armies can't muster at least 5 dispel dice.

And for 400 points any army in the game can get at least 2 decent sized units for 400 points, and quite a few armies can get more.

If you are crowding out your own units then maybe you are having issues quite aside from the magic phase.

It seems from your last point that your issues are with VC but all your comments are far more general as if all heavy magic armies are equally bad.

Uber, no, but there are many devistating spells that don't require an army to have their hero and lord slots filled with casters to be devistating. A lone wizard dropping a Comet of Casadora, or continually casting missile spells can severely hurt an army as much as a gunline if you have no protection from it.

EvC
13-04-2009, 14:28
Huh, someone who says what is misinformed or lying? Not sure what the problem is here EvC, but it's not an accusation of you being misinformed or lying. Simply an alternative way of thinking about the magic phase that challenges common "internet wisdom".

You spoke about people "buying" into the internet wisdom of "I have to take scrolls because magic will annihilate my army". That is saying that the pople who say this are lying at worst, and simply wrong at best. But it's the other way around: and the internet wisdom has nothing to do with it, it is simple fact as I stated that if an army has no magic defence, then armies with a decent level of magic can annihilate huge parts of the army.

Maybe you've never played a game of warhammer using or fighting an army with 10 power dice or more. Perhaps you've never seen a simple unit of Knights destroyed in a single turn by Spirit of the Forge or a unit vamooshed off the table by Infernal Gateway (as either the caster or victim). You have probably never had a Wood Elf player reveal a Spite that instantly killed one of your characters because you can't pass a leadership 8 test- I'm pretty unlucky. Maybe that is the case. But you cannot deny outright that these things do not happen. They do.

And for some reason, stopping an enemy wizard from instantly annihilating a few hundred points of troops with a few nice dice, once or twice per battle, is a bad thing (Or indeed, stopping far weaker spells every now and then)? Nah. You don't believe that- you've already said you agree with me on many aspects. You know that magic can be devestating, we all do, even the ninnies who act like all wizards do is a couple of D6 S4 hits per battle.

That is the plain and simple fact I speak of, and I don't see why I have to explain it to you, when you already know it's the truth.


There are several players trying it out with other armies as well, and that is worth looking into. Can every army make this style of list? Of course not. Is there a risk that in doing so you will get beat down by heavy magic? Of course. Is it worth trying out to see if it's viable? Depends on your perspective.

Exactly: it can work, for some armies, and some players. And the rest of us might spend 150 points to automatically stop two whole spells per game. I refuse to accept that by doing this, the game is ruined. It's not especially fun, I totally agree with those who say that (In fact I think Kerill said earlier that it's no fun praying for an opponent to miscast: I disagree, it's hugely fun when you do, for those rare occasions when they do actually miscast, as when an opponent broke out a power stone the other week for a 5-dice casting of a game-winning spell and rolled the double 1 :D ). And yes, there are lots of potentially better ideas that a scroll. I'd love it if a scroll was instead read at the start of a magic phase and makes all enemy wizards dispel 6s to cast (much like the Slann's new ability, but global and or 1 turn only); only working on a 2+ (with option to use dice instead, and not used up if failed) is also grand. Constructive criticism is fine- I'm sure we all know a load of ways the game could be improved.

But "wah scrolls are broken"... that's not constructive, and deserves a little mocking. Cmon, join in, you know you want to ;)

Finnigan2004
13-04-2009, 15:50
Always fun to debate you EvC (seriously), but you've given me an idea so I'm out of this one. I will say that I don't buy into the idea that a scroll caddy is absolutely necessary, and I think there are other ways to defend against magic. In my experience though, magic is not nearly as devastating as some claim. I've only gotten tabled twice by magic, and both times it was probably my fault-- well, once was my fault. Both times were spell spamming armies, and the only one that was no fun was the vampire counts army. Nothing I could do, and nothing that a basket full of dispel scrolls would have done to help.

Anyhow, stay tuned for my new thread and challenge for scroll haters (or just people who like experimenting with the game) everywhere. I'll probably post it later today when I have some time.

Zoolander
13-04-2009, 16:36
I feel that the reason that scrolls are seen as OP is because they are automatic. Spells can be difficult to get off, and to have the dispelled so easily definitely means you will see fewer 12+ spells and more 4+ ones beign spammed.

Since scrolls are automatic in nature, then perhaps spells should be too. All spells that your character knows can be cast for free once a turn. Then opponents have to roll dispel dice vs the usual casting number or dispel scroll. No? Then how about making scrolls work on a 4+ or something or add +2 DD. Something has to be done. I for one am very tired of taking such heavy magic lists because I know the small or medium ones are worthless almost as tired as I am of taking a dispell caddie or two just to neuter medium magic armies.

Kerill
13-04-2009, 16:42
Uber, no, but there are many devistating spells that don't require an army to have their hero and lord slots filled with casters to be devistating. A lone wizard dropping a Comet of Casadora, or continually casting missile spells can severely hurt an army as much as a gunline if you have no protection from it.

Comet of casandora? Needs a lord level mage mate, even then they have a 4/6 chance of getting the spell and will be unlikely to get it off every turn, partially since they will miscast/fail the casting roll or because the comet doesn't come down meaning next turn they can't cast bugger all if they want to keep it in play (and you get to move your units in between). Continually casting magic missiles (and you having dispel dice) does a lot less than the same number of points in shooting. One level 2 casting 2 magic missiles, maybe one will go off each turn against your base 2 dispel dice. 2 Level casters and 2 or maybe three will go off. Any more than that and it isn't exactly a weak magic army.

Being tabled by magic is an excuse most of the time. I played a game a month ago where all my chaos knights were spirit of the forged to death by teclis by turn 2, all my light cavalry had been missiled to death and guess what? It was my fault for deploying wrong. I could have greatly mitigated the damage and ripped most of his army apart in combat. My poor play and Teclis is about as cheesey a mage as you can get, but losing was not just because of the magic, it never is unless against the two armies I mentioned earlier.

Scrolls overpowered? No. Scroll caddies incredibly dull and boring al round and excessively useful against low/medium magic? Oh yes.

EvC
13-04-2009, 19:58
Of course mentioning Teclis is somewhat silly however, seeing as he probably got those Spirits of the Forge off with irresistible force nearly every time. I'd honestly love to know what tactics can be used to stop a unit of Knights (which must at some point be able to draw line of sight to the enemy, and so expose themselves in doing so) from being seen by the enemy... especially an enemy like a Slann, which is a large target when in a unit. Saying "I could have killed him in close combat" is all well and good- but weren't you trying to get into combat anyway?!

Anyway, looking forward to reading Finnegan's thread later... though if it is about playing magic-lite, then I'll bet I've already tried it a fair few times. Seeing as I'm one of those rare people who will actually try something out before pretending he's an authority on the matter and judging it ;)

zak
13-04-2009, 21:22
There is nothing wrong with the humble scroll. They are a necessary evil in the game and can prove expensive if your opponent has little or no magic. I really don't see an alternative unless you are a dwarf or dark elf!

WarlockOMork
13-04-2009, 21:34
let me start of with,
Vs low/no magic armies, lots of scrolls is a waste.
Vs Medium magic armies, it shuts down the phase (at quite a big cost).
Vs High magic armies, its almost a requirement else your doomed from the start, at least now you got a fighting chance.
(and he'll probaly burn trough your scrolls in short order. Also, vs vamps its still a waste even if you got lots of scrolls, as the number of dice he'll on avarage use for a spell is 1-2)

meaning 2/3e of the armies you face your still at a disadvantage, and at 1/3e your at best only equal. (your denial, vs his mgic), so it doesnt seem that OP.


Most players don't like half their armies to be sucked into the warp every turn by some guy in a bath robe. For some armies the dispel scroll is their only defense. Not to mention that 25 points is quite a lot for an item that can't really harm your opponent, only stop you from being harmed. Remember that taking all those scrolls like you say would be very expensive and cost the army alot of combat power and leadership while providing no way to actually cause damage other than denial.

First i lol'd then i nodded, even with all this denial, you still gotta win, this only stops your from losing (and even then only for a while).


I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

It would probably be the worst series of armies and games ever played.


i must say at an avarage magic game, scrolls can ruin some of the fun that is the magic phase(if you enjoy your magic, i know i do :) ).
(and at low magic, your bound to get a sound trashing and change your plan next time)
(and you getting a sound trashing 'll mean your opponent will be having fun even without his low magic (i know i will :p))

But the above things combined to me say that that's not the scrolls fault.

so no a scroll isnt broken, far from it, its actualy quite balanced.

The magic phase is broken. (and is in dire need of a complete overhaul)

Warlock.

Edit: well maybe not a complete overhaul (as the bones of the system are sound) but definitly in need of a lot of Change/Tweaking.

R Man
13-04-2009, 23:45
Then how about making scrolls work on a 4+ or something or add +2 DD. Something has to be done. I for one am very tired of taking such heavy magic lists because I know the small or medium ones are worthless almost as tired as I am of taking a dispell caddie or two just to neuter medium magic armies.

BUt does that really solve the problem? Is the Dispel scroll really the problem? No, its the result of the problem. The real issue is a complex problem caused by several factors including ease of getting PD and a lack of DD avaliable to most armies leading to a disparity between DD and PD.


Comet of casandora? Needs a lord level mage mate, even then they have a 4/6 chance of getting the spell and will be unlikely to get it off every turn, partially since they will miscast/fail the casting roll or because the comet doesn't come down meaning next turn they can't cast bugger all if they want to keep it in play (and you get to move your units in between). Continually casting magic missiles (and you having dispel dice) does a lot less than the same number of points in shooting.

I'm not so sure. A magic missile ignores range, cover and skirmishing and can be cast on the move. An average MM (2d6 S4) will (against T3 Sv 5+) cause about 4 casualties. The size of handgunners required for this is almost 20 at long range (160) points. And while a wizard is less likely to be able to cast (as Handgunners are harder to stop) and will thus do less damage, a wizard can contribute to magical defense as well, or switch to a different spell (depending on level) and are excellent against skirmishers. Not to mention potential mobility.


The magic phase is broken. (and is in dire need of a complete overhaul)

I think the basic premis of the system works well, but in opperation it favours investment. I would like to stagger the magic system, so that all spells can be cast by all wizards, even in a weakened form, and even if one cannot stop a spell, they can at least have some form of damage control.

Woodsman
14-04-2009, 15:28
I find it ironic that a VC player is complaining about his favourite phase of the game being shut down by a list making tactic of his opponents. I presume the OP would never use spells such as:
Curse - really screws with those who like to play a deathstar type army
Wind - death to MSU based army
Vanhels - totally screwing with anyone who likes to enjoy the movement phase
IoN - is this a crutch because VC generals can't keep any units alive to get them into CC?:rolleyes:
Then again getting the vast majority of my army to stand toe-to-toe with fear causing critters is a challenge.

Accusing people who use a dispel scroll of being a bad tactician is infantile. The fact is, if your army can be neutralised by any one particular item, it's a one trick pony and deserves to fail.
Magic armies can be a lot of fun and I've never found dispel scrolls have ruined that, you find ways to neutralise them. Playing with three DD and no scrolls as currently is a greater challenge but still fun and I can giggle when opponents have wasted points on caddies and MR, s'all good. I could whine about how broken I find VC to be, but I don't, keep playing until you find a way around a problem(I haven't, don't think dispel scrolls will help though:))

If you want to use magic more and you're playing friendly games, suggest to your buddies limiting dispel scrolls and making magic-centric lists. Hopefully they'll be up for doing this for a couple of games at least. The rest of the time, build an army that isn't put out of action by a couple of scroll caddies.

Cheers, Woody.

Havock
14-04-2009, 17:13
Dispel scrolls aren't a given that you can rely on: Irresistable Force can let any spell through.

Personally, I've always played WFB for the "battle" side of the game. I find the magic to be the part that sucks the fun out of the game for me. Nothing less interesting than watching your foe burn through 20 power dice worth of spells while you try to figure out where to throw your 5 dispel dice.

If you like magic that much, I have a card game that you might try. It might be more suited to your playstyle.

12 PD are the Max, the new 15+PD armies are ridiculous, granted, the old HoC tzeentch army could do the same, but it had a fairly ****** lore :p

Wolf 11x
14-04-2009, 17:17
Wow, long thread.

My 2 cents:

Dispel Scrolls are a great and vital part of any army's magic defense. With that said, they can be annoying because they prevent anyone from going "magic light". It's all or nothing. With that mentality, people don't take just a couple level 2s in 2000. Subsequently, people take more and more scrolls.

I wish they were something like 1 scroll max per level 1/2 wizard and 2 max per level 3/4.

WarlockOMork
14-04-2009, 17:30
i think you missed parts of the thread namely those that say that there is nothing wrong with scrolls, or that restricting scrolls isnt the solution.
if you just restrict scrolls the magic problem only gets worse.

ill reqoute EVC who worded it nicely.

I guarantee you, if you were to run a tournament, or campaign, or have a series of friendly games where you told people not to bring any scrolls, the result would be the complete opposite of what you say: almost every player would bring magic-heavy lists, for two reasons:
1) Few other ways of gaining magic defence
2) Safety knowing that their big spells cannot be stopped easily.

So restricted or no scrolls = just more magic death spam.
so in short its not because of scrolls that people go magic heavy, its because of magic heavy people take scrolls.

and lastly, yes lots of scroll can ruin low magic, but if you bring that many to such battles your wasting lots of points. and will probaly lose because of it.

Edit: for more ranting see my original post. (its a bit up)

Ixquic
14-04-2009, 18:26
What I hate about scrolls is that you can load up on them. Typically taking 4 is never a waste. Against low magic armies it shuts down their magic for the entire game. Against medium magic it makes it so they will get nothing off short of an IF for the first half of the game and by then most stuff will either be in combat (and not able to be targeted by most magic) or not in a position of great influence so the spells that affect everything else can be easily overpowered via dispel dice. Against high magic they will buy you some time to get across the board. I guess if the opponent's only caster is a level 1 caddy it would be a waste but that's a lot rarer than the alternatives.

Against high magic they are pretty fair since without them you're facing Spirit of the Forge, Black Horror, Tzeench Firestorm and 3 Vans Dances a turn. However against armies that rely on medium magic , like low magic VC, wood elves or even some empire lists taking tons of them pretty much is a guaranteed loss of their magic phase. I think dispel scrolls are not broken in that they can simply be removed resulting in a more balanced magic phase since they are often a requirement to even lasting 3 turns, but a symptom of the fact that the magic phase is not well designed in the first place.

the_under_empire_clan
14-04-2009, 18:53
hahaha i think its funny people getting mad at dispell scrolls i play with warpstones, so eventually my spells will get threw.No dispell scrolls arent cheap they cost to much to be called that, and if a lord takes nothing but dispell scrolls, chances are they wont be that strong they'll just be there for ld boost's so go cutt him down.

Zoolander
14-04-2009, 22:49
i think you missed parts of the thread namely those that say that there is nothing wrong with scrolls, or that restricting scrolls isnt the solution.
if you just restrict scrolls the magic problem only gets worse.

ill reqoute EVC who worded it nicely.

So restricted or no scrolls = just more magic death spam.
so in short its not because of scrolls that people go magic heavy, its because of magic heavy people take scrolls.

and lastly, yes lots of scroll can ruin low magic, but if you bring that many to such battles your wasting lots of points. and will probaly lose because of it.

Edit: for more ranting see my original post. (its a bit up)

EVC (and you) is incorrect. He is mistaken if he thinks taking more scrolls will do the opposite. More scrolls only enforces the notion that heavy magic is a must. Initially, the lack of scrolls would keep magic levels as they are (they would not increase, though the number of magic lead armies might increase), but after a time people would realize they need 15 PD about as much as they need a second blood thirster, and you would see more medium level magic at play. No scrolls = more medium level magic, more fun for everyone.

LictorIntheGrass
14-04-2009, 23:12
EVC (and you) is incorrect. He is mistaken if he thinks taking more scrolls will do the opposite. More scrolls only enforces the notion that heavy magic is a must. Initially, the lack of scrolls would keep magic levels as they are (they would not increase, though the number of magic lead armies might increase), but after a time people would realize they need 15 PD about as much as they need a second blood thirster, and you would see more medium level magic at play. No scrolls = more medium level magic, more fun for everyone.

Anyone ever hear of Nash's Equilibruim? Because I am assuming that you based that decision of that theory. Which is very true with scrolls, to an extent (kinda like armament build-up). However, you are wrong with you say that people will just do medium level magic, the OPPOSITE will occur, again because of the Nash Equilibrium. Put magic heavy armies and scrolls together, a small balance is made, because of the points (more you spend more you put you eggs in the same basket).

System has to be redone! Read my last post, few pages back. That's the kind of structured needed to solve the problem.

OR, the strength of magic (or dispelling) in all armies have to be the same, or change dispelling for armies to balance things out. Or remove all catastrophic spells (only reason why I take a scroll btw...)

SYSTEM NEEDS TO CHANGE. Period.

Zoolander
14-04-2009, 23:19
I agree with you Lictor, the system needs to change. No, I have not heard of that theory. But I am still convinced that the reason you see 15 Pd armies is because everybody knows your opponent will have 4+ scrolls. If scrolls were not available, initially, you would see more magic armies, but over time that woiuld subside and you would see more medium magic armies. Well, at least that's what the people at my GW are like. Yours may vary.

WarlockOMork
14-04-2009, 23:33
great so everyone agrees with each other that the system simply needs to change**. :)
(btw - in case i didnt mention before, i like your approach to fixing it Lict, now if only we could get GW to do it.)

to zoolander, im still convinced its not. let me try and explain why i think thats the case.
in my gaming group (wich is quite large) so far none of us has ever used a dispell scroll*.
and yet, over time some of us developed very high Powerdice armies.

but as you said, it all comes down to people. (mine did vary :p)


Edit: (*some did use quite a few other anti magic, items/tactics but never scrolls)
(**i think anyone with half a brain would agree to that)

theunwantedbeing
14-04-2009, 23:33
Lack of restraint is the issue.

You "can" take 7 powerdice and 6 scrolls and nerf the other guys magic phase to hell.
You "can" take 15+ powerdice and 4+ bound items and blow the other guy to bits with magic.
People seem to get mixed up with "can" and "need"(or "have to").

W0lf
14-04-2009, 23:47
Theres also the issue that those 2 are not mutually exclusive.

Zoolander
14-04-2009, 23:48
Unwanted, if you give people the option to do certain things in the game, don't be surprised when they take advantage of it. Maybe we definitely need some limits, just like how they limit players from taking 4 Lord choices in a 2k game. Maybe the number of scrolls and PD should be limited by power level. Who knows? :confused:

theunwantedbeing
14-04-2009, 23:54
The problem with restricting things massively, is that everything ends out the same and there is no diversity.

We "could" limit spells to just fireballs and have armies be 1 scroll max and 4 dispel dice, with powerdice being a maximum of 6 dice.
That would stop any issues of the magic phase being overpowered dead in its tracks.

It would also make magic suck.

LictorIntheGrass
15-04-2009, 00:00
Exactly or, like the structure I've mentioned my 2nd post in this thread, make the risk equal the reward more, based on the spell itself (there's an idea...)! And not the number of dice in a roll. Using a chart similar to how 40k does it's vehicle damages, with pluses and minuses base on types of weapons. SOMETHING to satisfy everyone.

That's a novelty of an idea, and I don't think people would disagree. Plus put a cap on the number of dice you can have in proportion to your army size might help (so no 15 casting dice in a 2k game, and say, a cap of 10).

GW LISTEN! COME ON! Not rocket science here for crying out loud.

[EDIT] unwanted, you make it seem that nothing can be done... to balance the magic phase. I'm not saying my idea is great but just an example of what could be done.

EvC
15-04-2009, 00:49
EVC (and you) is incorrect. He is mistaken if he thinks taking more scrolls will do the opposite.

I'm quite certain I haven't advocated people taking lots of scrolls, and have said that the main problem with them is when people take a load of them ;)

I would also really like to know if my postulation is correct or not, that if you said to people "don't bring any scrolls", if they would decide to go moderate or more extreme. You are basically in the position where you have one guy with a sword, and another guy with a shield about to have a fight, and you are telling the guy with the shield he should not use his shield in the interests of fairness, expecting the swordsman to see his opponent is vulnerable and put down his sword. Maybe he would. Or maybe he'd just gut his opponent and laugh at how the fool lowered his defenses especially for him ;)

WarlockOMork
15-04-2009, 01:06
had tought about saying something like that but changed my post at the last moment,
i simply couldnt word it clearly enough,
that and to me, in a way he already admitted that it might not work,
by more or less saying that this judgment was based on his gaming group/Gw.

you cant say if its Correct or Incorrect till you implement it, and see the effects.

but the effects quite likely would vary per person.

as unwanted said some people just lack restraint.

if something can be abused there will be those who will abuse it.

EvC
15-04-2009, 01:29
Indeed... another thing Zoolander said was that people wouldn't take heavy magic as it would be overkill, like taking two Bloodthirsters. I have little doubt that if you let Daemon armies take two Bloodthirsters at 2K, then the double Bloodthirster build would be very popular ;)

Shimmergloom
15-04-2009, 05:44
Indeed... another thing Zoolander said was that people wouldn't take heavy magic as it would be overkill, like taking two Bloodthirsters. I have little doubt that if you let Daemon armies take two Bloodthirsters at 2K, then the double Bloodthirster build would be very popular ;)

Quoted for Truth.

R Man
15-04-2009, 07:13
It seems to me that Zoolander is making an appeal to the reason of the players involved. Which is fine in essence but its worth remembering that two players who do respect each other will probably do this anyway; and those who wont probably play in toruneys or possibly come from different groups where different things are acceptable.

scarletsquig
15-04-2009, 07:58
Scrolls aren't bad, but it would be nice to be able to take them on non-wizard models.

The generic scroll caddy mule appears in pretty much every single army and it's a horribly dull part of army selection.

Really, the whole magic system needs a rethink. A combined power/ dispel pool for each turn would be more interesting... that way the dice could be used for attack or defence.

Dranthar
15-04-2009, 10:09
The magic system isn't perfect, but it's also a long way from being broken. Dispel scrolls in particular are fine as is.

A few dispel scrolls will only hold off some moderate magical offense for maybe two turns, one if they've maxed out on the power dice. Taking more scrolls could potentially neutralise the most powerful magic-heavy armies, but the points you've invested into all those dispel scrolls and wizards is going to really mess you up against armies that don't rely on magic at all.

I have no doubt that removing dispel scrolls as they are will only encourage people to take even more magic offense. It's not like Gangs of New York - people aren't going to leave the guns at home because everyone else wants to take a knife. There are plenty of people who will gladly take the strongest list they can, and without dispel scrolls that is very likely to be a magic heavy list.

I think it's pretty ironic to have a VC player complaining about dispel scrolls. Of all the armies that can go magic heavy, they have the least to worry about with dispel scrolls (just take Lord of the Dead and Spam invocation with 1 power die). On the flip side, I think people are kidding themselves when they assert that VC NEED to go magic heavy. Sure it's hard to forego completely (unless you stick with Konrad for your general and Wights for heroes), but there are enough hard-hitting units available to ensure that magic needn't be a crutch.

Freakiq
15-04-2009, 10:32
If a large part of your army becomes useless because I bring along some dispel scrolls you are seriously doing something wrong...

Staurikosaurus
15-04-2009, 12:54
Scrolls aren't bad, but it would be nice to be able to take them on non-wizard models.


<---- thinks of bloodthirsters toting dispel scrolls and shudders

Conotor
15-04-2009, 13:00
If u play somone who lodes up on dispell scrolls, don't take magic! Eventualy they will get sick of playing 1850 points vs 2000 points, and then u can go magic on and off.

Shimmergloom
15-04-2009, 13:06
Daemon's don't even have the option for dispel scrolls anyway or any of the common items.

But there is nothing that I can see that would keep a bloodthirster from taking their version of a scroll which costs 25pts.

So start shuddering. Or don't. Cause I'd rather a daemon player load up his thirster with the spell breaker gift, than the typical thirster builds.


If u play somone who lodes up on dispell scrolls, don't take magic! Eventualy they will get sick of playing 1850 points vs 2000 points, and then u can go magic on and off.

I use to play a dwarf who took 2 runesmiths with the rune of spite(to steal a power dice) and spell breaker runes every game.

I stopped taking magic after about a few games and he never adjusted. He'd take them every single game. He was basically wasting the 100pts in runes each game to stop magic that I never took. Also by always taking 2 smiths, he was missing out on taking better thane characters for his units that would help them much better in combat, than the smiths would(although they are decent fighters).

Fenrir
15-04-2009, 13:10
<---- thinks of bloodthirsters toting dispel scrolls and shudders

He already can. It's called a spellbreaker.

I think heralds of Khorne should have the choice to carry one. It'd reduce the need to take a bloodthirster.

Staurikosaurus
15-04-2009, 13:10
It was a contextual statement as opposed to a literal one, I do own the Daemon army book :rolleyes:.

How about Oldbloods on Carnosaurs wielding a BoR and a scroll etc?

The point is, you'll just end up with rediculous combat machines toting a couple of scrolls in addition to a healthy amount of anti magic ability. In other words, it won't achieve the "balance" the statement I originally responded to was suggesting.

Kerill
15-04-2009, 14:46
The magic system isn't perfect, but it's also a long way from being broken. Dispel scrolls in particular are fine as is.

A few dispel scrolls will only hold off some moderate magical offense for maybe two turns, one if they've maxed out on the power dice. Taking more scrolls could potentially neutralise the most powerful magic-heavy armies, but the points you've invested into all those dispel scrolls and wizards is going to really mess you up against armies that don't rely on magic at all.

This is very true in an environment where people don't tailor their armies at all. When tailoring comes in though its a very different situation.

Fenrir
15-04-2009, 15:11
It was a contextual statement as opposed to a literal one, I do own the Daemon army book :rolleyes:.

Whoopee for you. :rolleyes:

PARTYCHICORITA
15-04-2009, 15:36
It's funny -- I think that dispel scrolls are one of the few things that keep magic even remotely balanced in this game. The fact of the matter is, magic is ridiculously powerful if left unchecked. There are also certain armies which can field WAY more magic than others. The way I see it, if dispel scrolls didn't exist or weren't as effective as they are, everybody would be forced to take as much magic as possible so as to have even a shred of hope against the super heavy magic lists.

Dispel scrolls don't constrict army design, they give magic light lists a fighting chance.

I actually agree with this totally. I play 5 armies (one of them beeing VC) and honestly i dislike magic heavy matches because i feel it ignores a lot of the strategy factor of the game (this however is not true to every magic heavy list out there). However, since there is a lot of people out there who like magic, i am force to take one, some times even 2 caddies and their scrolls are the only thing giving me a fighting chance since they buy time for the rest of my army to get the job done.




Magic in warhammer is at heart all about bluffing your opponent and getting down solid casting order + no. of dice to skillfully maximise your potential. Magic is random whilst scrolls are not.

Most of the time i disagree with most of Wolf's views of the game but here i can not. A good magic user is all about bluffing and forcing your opponent to "waste" his dd and scrolls early on the game/turn in order to get those really important one through.
That however is the only real skill requiere in the magic phase and a decent player should be able to deal with a few dispel scrolls.

Fenrir
15-04-2009, 15:45
After being gatewayed three times in one game, I think theres worse things to fuss about than whether scrolls are broken (which they aren't)

Agree with the chaps above - magic would be too powerful without them. They should be more widely available, so that a caddy isn't always there. That or provide an item to bump up the amount of dispel dice available to a non magic using army - similar to the DE MR one.

EvC
15-04-2009, 17:39
I had a game against what could be called a moderate magic army yesterday. One level 4 vs my scroll caddy.

Throughout the magic phases, the sorceress tried to cast Spirit of the Forge 5 times. Two times I used my two scrolls, once was against a unit of Warriors and killed 5, another was against the unfortunate lone scroll caddy and another saw the elf miscast instead (yay!). She also burned a wound off my general and helped the Hydra kill my Hellcannon with her Metal magic. So all in all, the 300 points of enemy magic, without being lucky, achieved:
-5 Warriors, 100 points
-a wound off my Lord, worth ~100 points
-My Sorcerer scroll caddy worth ~170 points
-A little help against the Hellcannon, ~100 points
So, that's a total of 470 points worth of damage caused. Not bad for 6 power dice, eh? Now imagine the game if I hadn't taken any scrolls. The 2 scrolled SotFs would have gone off, and most likely killed my Knights and my Lord, so that's another 500 points. Those models would have died early as well, so not only would this have had the lord earn nearly 1000 points, but it would have prevented the destruction of a spear block, remains of a Cold One Knight unit and a Reaper Bolt Thrower that my Knights killed (just so they would overrun off the board and not be able to be targeted by magic for one turn). So all in all, her magic would have been the cause of around 1500 VP difference.

If anyone thinks that in this situation, the scrolls that prevented 1000VPs worth of destruction (Yet did nothing to stop the other 500 points of kills that was caused by the one level 4) are the broken things that need changing in this game, then they're a *****. Sorry.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-04-2009, 19:31
I had a game against what could be called a moderate magic army yesterday. One level 4 vs my scroll caddy.

If anyone thinks that in this situation, the scrolls that prevented 1000VPs worth of destruction (Yet did nothing to stop the other 500 points of kills that was caused by the one level 4) are the broken things that need changing in this game, then they're a *****. Sorry.

Go-go single game anecdote.

I had a game where 2 Reaper bolt throwers killed my bone giant, and a whole bunch of other crap, easily 3-4x their points cost. Are they broken? Not particularly. Although I don't get some spiffy 25pt item that can effectively neutralize one of them for a turn.

You seem to be forgetting that the entire point of wargames is to cause your units to kill more than their points worth (Seeing as if every unit made back their points, the game would always be a tie). There are a crapload of things in WFB that can do this without the threat of being scrolled, dispelled, or miscasting. Nevermind the fact that it's generally pretty easy to assassinate wizards that need LoS for their spells. I don't know why people reserve a special hate for magic in WFB. It's typically less effective overall than the same points invested in shooting, or CC, and yet is placed on a pedestal of cheese over and above gunlines, deathstars, and all the other crap people have come up with over the ages. My only gripe about scrolls is that they're a sure thing in a game of no sure things.

I run my main army with no wizards and no magic defense (no-blackpowder Empire). I've won games against all the magic heavy armies out there. Am I a god of warhammer? Not particularly, though I've been playing for a long time (21 yrs). Point is, it can be done. (yeah, gateway sucks, but don't field units worth so many ******** points ;))

EvC
15-04-2009, 20:33
The real question, is why are you so against the playing field being levelled by my taking a couple of scrolls? And why do you project your own hatred onto me- there's no indication whatsoever that I hate the magic phase, seeing as, well, I don't. But I will happily do my best to prevent it from having an over-reaching and nigh-unstoppable effect upon my games.

You uttelry missed the point of my little tale, of course, which was not that "MAGICK IS TEH BORKEN", or "I HATE MAHGIC AND EAT POOPOO", but rather that a moderate magic offense can and will still prevail against a single scroll caddy. If you don't believe me, go play some warhammer. You might even enjoy it... or you might come back whining about the fun of the game being sucked dry by a couple of "sure thing" magic items (and of course we aren't to complain about Burning Alignment, Corpse Carts, Treesinging, Prayers or any other form of automatically-cast bound spells, because we're going to ignore anything that contradicts whatever we say, right?), as your moderate mages only killed a fair amount of your opponent's army. Boo hoo, boo hoo, Gateway ftw, etc.

P.S. Dark Elves > Warriors of Chaos for manoeuvrability and assassinations, in case you haven't played warhammer in the last few months.

Zoolander
15-04-2009, 20:42
The problem with restricting things massively, is that everything ends out the same and there is no diversity.

We "could" limit spells to just fireballs and have armies be 1 scroll max and 4 dispel dice, with powerdice being a maximum of 6 dice.
That would stop any issues of the magic phase being overpowered dead in its tracks.

It would also make magic suck.

My god. I never said restrict things that heavily. Way to exaggerate things out of proportion. Two can play that game: By your standards then, we should let people field whatever they want. Unlimited lords and rares, no core reqs, unlimited magic items... oh wait - you want some balance in your game you say? Oh well, then maybe you want some restrictions put into play...

Devil
15-04-2009, 22:21
SOme of you guys are talking about insane dramatic changes. Make spells auto cast?> Woah slow down. Maybe your just spit balling and I can appreciate that but the easiest solution as I see it is to make dispel scrolls add 2 dispel dice to a given phase. That way you don't remove the fun element of rolling dice and the random element that you can still roll double 1's and fail. Thats why scrolls suck because they are a no brainer and you roll no dice.

I disagree EVC. People would actually have to learn how to use there dispel dice like they were ment to be used.

The biggest part of warhammer magic is learning what to allow and what not to. You can take most spells that cause 2d6 strength 4 hits to your unit. You can. Spells that effect movement however? I repeat the genius of the game is in the magic phase and you will never come to know that genius if all you ever do is throw in 4 dispel scrolls a game added in to your 6 dispel dice a game. Your opponent will never get a single spell off of note.


Its just boring to play scrolls. Flat out boring.

I play Counts. I refuse to take a single scroll because I have always believed and still do they are for the weak.

I am not so much complaining about them as trying to get you guys to see that you become a much better player without them. Hell when you scroll caddy I don't care. It just means you likely haven't gotten a single quality hero in your army worth a spit and when I get into hand to hand combat my Wight King ( imagine that a VC player who actually runs a wight king who is not the BSB) will decimate your hero with his Black Axe of Krell.


Also most of you guys who whine about magic heavy lists so you run dispel scrolls to counter it are the ones GUILTY the most of running heavy magic lists. If your packing alot of Dispel Scrolls that also means your packing a ton of heroes capable of casting spells. Most heavy hero/melee armies havent a scroll in them.





Again the last thing I wanna repeat is this. It's an item that exists for the sake of itself. It brings nothing to the game. But when taken it raises the bar and encourages other players to have to take it. It's like that stupid LUCKY CHARM in mordhiem that every veteran Mordhiem player hated. It ignored the first hit in every game. So every hero always had one and nobody ever got off there first attack. You knew you had to attack him once to get past his charm before you could actually hurt him. Everyone HATED that charm but we all had to take them to compete. The scroll is the same way. You know you gotta cast enough spells that have no hope of going off just so at some point in the game you may be able to get a spell off. Instead of having 12 magic phases that play out dramatically as they were intended you know are lucky to see 3 phases that play out with all the passion of the theatre.

Scrolls suck. And only the weak take them. The strong know better.

Staurikosaurus
15-04-2009, 22:24
Whoopee for you. :rolleyes:

Congratulations on ignoring the rest of my post Fenrir, you win the ass award

()()

Malorian
15-04-2009, 22:29
For a long time I never took scrolls but now there are some just nasty spells out there that you NEED to stop, and if you don't take a scroll then you risk taking a pounding.

EvC's example of the forge is a good one, and with gate's now going around it's even more dangerous. Sure you could save dice to stop them, but with these high csting spells you run the risk of not rolling high enough or rolling a double 1 and then taking a major hit.

The same goes for spells that force you to move, don't allow you to move, or allow the opponent to make extra moves. These spells are game winners and if you don't have that 25 point scroll you run a major risk of losing the game each turn.

(The issue then becomes that there are six turns and only 1 scroll... unless you take 3 scroll caddies ;) )

W0lf
15-04-2009, 22:32
If anyone thinks that in this situation, the scrolls that prevented 1000VPs worth of destruction (Yet did nothing to stop the other 500 points of kills that was caused by the one level 4) are the broken things that need changing in this game, then they're a *****. Sorry.

I think its stupid that 50pts stopped 1000 pts of damage yes.

He got spirit of the forge off 5 times? you deserve to be punished for not kill the wizard. Plus spirit vs chaos is a pretty extreme example. I cant find a single person who is anti-scrolls here that dosnt think magic needs to be less devastating.

Spells like spirit, bolt, infernal gateway etc shouldnt exist in a no-scroll enviroment.

zak
15-04-2009, 22:47
@Devil

I just knew that with a response such as yours you played VC's. You can afford not to take a scroll. In most armies it is a necessecity to avoid being creamed. A two scroll caddy will only last so long and will not negate a magic heavy list. What it will do is give the other player a chance to win.

PARTYCHICORITA
15-04-2009, 22:49
You can take most spells that cause 2d6 strength 4 hits to your unit. .

You obviously don't play WE or any elven army for that matter. VC (which i also play) can afford to take no scrolls anyway because:
1) they can handle most damage spells
2) they usually have a good ammount of dispel dice to begin with.
If you play a not very magical army like WE, brets or ogres and come across an army with 12+ PD you need the scrolls in the scroll caddy (and i hate taking caddys but they are a necessity), other wise a simple lvl4 mage and a level 2 can pretty much kill your support units and then get rid of the rest of your army.

And sure someone could just say "kill the mages" but unless your opponent is a ***** his not gonna let you do that easly and also not all mages are easly killed anyway.


I think its stupid that 50pts stopped 1000 pts of damage yes.



In a similar way i think its stupid that a 135pts mage could have cause 1000pts of damage. That's pretty much a circular discussion.

Malorian
15-04-2009, 22:52
Exactly.

A dragon riding lord can easily kill a vampire... IF he has scrolls to stop the horde of zombies being vanhelled into him...

Rioghan Murchadha
15-04-2009, 23:20
The real question, is why are you so against the playing field being levelled by my taking a couple of scrolls? And why do you project your own hatred onto me- there's no indication whatsoever that I hate the magic phase, seeing as, well, I don't. But I will happily do my best to prevent it from having an over-reaching and nigh-unstoppable effect upon my games.

You uttelry missed the point of my little tale, of course, which was not that "MAGICK IS TEH BORKEN", or "I HATE MAHGIC AND EAT POOPOO", but rather that a moderate magic offense can and will still prevail against a single scroll caddy. If you don't believe me, go play some warhammer. You might even enjoy it... or you might come back whining about the fun of the game being sucked dry by a couple of "sure thing" magic items (and of course we aren't to complain about Burning Alignment, Corpse Carts, Treesinging, Prayers or any other form of automatically-cast bound spells, because we're going to ignore anything that contradicts whatever we say, right?),
P.S. Dark Elves > Warriors of Chaos for manoeuvrability and assassinations, in case you haven't played warhammer in the last few months.

Read much? If a moderate magic offence can prevail against a single caddy, don't take one. Spend the points on more troopers. Half my post was pointing out that I field absolutely NO magic defense beyond the 2 basic dice, and I don't complain even a slight little bit when things in my army go boom due to magic. How does any of that contradict anything that I've said?

Scrolls are stupid simply because they're so cheap, and are guaranteed in a game with no other such guarantees. If you're so afraid of Lore of Metal, take some naked marauders to screen your ridiculously heavily armoured troops.


as your moderate mages only killed a fair amount of your opponent's army. Boo hoo, boo hoo, Gateway ftw, etc.
Miss the part where I don't take any mages?



If you don't believe me, go play some warhammer. You might even enjoy it...P.S. Dark Elves > Warriors of Chaos for manoeuvrability and assassinations, in case you haven't played warhammer in the last few months.
Also miss the part where I've been playing for 21 years? I get in about 2 games a week on average. In case you haven't noticed, DE outmaneuvers Empire too, but I've never let that stop me from beating them.

Should maybe strap your knee to your chair to stop it from jerking so much when you respond to things.

Conversely, go play ancients. You don't need to take scrolls in that.

Devil
15-04-2009, 23:26
Thats untrue. You have ward saves and armor saves depending on the unit. I don't know a thing about wood elves but most armies can handle it. If you take the right troops and enough of them you can handle damage causing spells. You don't need to scroll every damage dealing spell that comes your way.

High Elves has a ton of dispel dice to begin with. They have the Phboenix guard with good armor and a ward save. I know that much. And great leadership that causes them to stick around and in combat s group of 15 spearmen can be as effective as 20 if played right.


And when I play my next army whenever and whatever it is I will not use scrolls. You talk of the Counts as not needing them because we have alot of dispel dice to begin with but you continue to ignore my comment that most people that have alot of dispel scrolls have a ton of magic to begin with because in most cases I am aware of it takes a mage to carry a dispel scroll to begin with. Its gross over kill. You are running a high elf army with a dragon mage and and Teclis and another mage and you need those 3 dispel scrolls because? Fact a person who caddies a ton of scrolls already has a ton of dispel dice anyways and is no different from a VC army in the dispel dice category.


And I chose to play VC for asthetics alone. I played them In mordhiem before I came to warhammmer and I knew not a thing about the game when I picked my army. And you know what after the fact I still say this whole " VC are unfair WAAAH WAAAH" argument is ridiculous. All armies are powerful. If an army is weak on the table top it is ALWAYS because the man behind the army moving it is weak. Correct me if I am wrong but it wasnt the VC that one that GT in Vegas this year was it? No it was High Elves. And they won why? Because they had a helluva general who knew how to play his army.


There are probably a crap load of people running VC right now who's heart is not with the army but they wanna run them because they believe the are unbalanced in that they are overpowered. These players will never be exceptional. Someone truly exceptional with an army loves the army they field and that love motivates them to understand the way that army works better then anyone else and use it in a way that brings glory to the play style of the lore of that army. For me my love affair with the undead goes way back and I personally plan to devote most of my WFB career to VC only and most of my collecting as well. I want to have 7k and above worth of the army. I am not going to stop at 2k painted and carry on to the next hot ticket that wins tournaments. Nobody can question my choice in the army. Every part of the gamer in me breathes the Counts in. I am at one with the army. Yes I am truly a psychopath fanatic when it comes to the Counts. So please dont question my motives for choosing the army because there weren't any other then to field the army I would love to paint. Because I love the Lore and I love the asthetics.






Staurikosaurus I think your way out of line name calling like that. This is a civil conversation and you are escalating it inappropriately. So please keep the insults to yourself.

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2009, 23:29
My god. I never said restrict things that heavily. Way to exaggerate things out of proportion. Two can play that game: By your standards then, we should let people field whatever they want. Unlimited lords and rares, no core reqs, unlimited magic items... oh wait - you want some balance in your game you say? Oh well, then maybe you want some restrictions put into play...

Sugguest some "limitations" then.
Then I can comment on your limitation idea.

Lord Zarkov
15-04-2009, 23:31
Treekin and Treemen aside WE have pretty naff saves, even the basic fireball ignores the armour on most units that actually have some. The don't get their ward saves vs magic either so that's not much help. Then again they do have some nifty magic items to counter magic (re-roll dispels for 55pts anyone?).

Oguleth
15-04-2009, 23:36
I am so sick of people abusing magic levels, that if the game didn't have dispell scrolls I'd prolly go mad already.

Every time I play fantasy these days I just wish the magic phase was more like 40k psykerstuff.. And not wizardspam that one have to ponder on either doing yourself or taking boring characters to not get flayed alive by the one drowning themselves in power dice.

I'd be all for 2+ to use scrolls as a cheap enchanted item that could be taken in droves instead of having to have wizards carry them though.

PARTYCHICORITA
15-04-2009, 23:54
Thats untrue. You have ward saves and armor saves depending on the unit. I don't know a thing about wood elves but most armies can handle it. If you take the right troops and enough of them you can handle damage causing spells. You don't need to scroll every damage dealing spell that comes your way.

You are right, you don't know a thing about WE; they have pretty much no armor saves and their wards are negated by magic. Still they can't scroll everything thrown at them but you still need a couple of dispel scrolls to nullify at least the worse of those spells while you possition your troops.



most people that have alot of dispel scrolls have a ton of magic to begin with because in most cases I am aware of it takes a mage to carry a dispel scroll to begin with. Its gross over kill. You are running a high elf army with a dragon mage and and Teclis and another mage and you need those 3 dispel scrolls because? Fact a person who caddies a ton of scrolls already has a ton of dispel dice anyways and is no different from a VC army in the dispel dice category.

The thing here is that's your personal experience, where i game the average player either takes 1 level 1 mage with two scrolls or 2 level 2's with one scroll on each. That's only 3-4dd and a couple of scroll in a 2K pts game that's also the average for most armies i see in these boards and a couple more i usually go to. To come across a standard army list with 3+ scrolls is unusual.

The HE army you mentioned (Teclis+dragonmage+mage) is not aiming for the defensive part of the argument, it's actually the other way around and armies that load on magic defense then go a find themselves fighting dwarves or brets and get screwed since they wasted so many points going defensive with magic.

Havock
16-04-2009, 00:05
When it comes to magic; offense is better than defense. Most of the time. Mostly because going offense means your defense automatically increases as well.

EvC
16-04-2009, 00:17
I disagree EVC. People would actually have to learn how to use there dispel dice like they were ment to be used.

Spirit of the Forge is cast on a basic 12. If I take 2 dispel dice, I have a one in 36 chance of stopping it. If I take a single Wizard or have a little bit of magic resistance, this goes up, but don't fool yourself (please?): there's no issue of learning here. You can't "learn" to dispel Spirit of the Forge or Infernal Gateway with 2 dice. You can either modify your army list and drop the Knights (And why should I?), or you can accept the Knights are going to die horribly (This is what I did with my Vampire Counts when I faced armies with Spirit of the Forge. 28 points and re-raisable is a long way off from 40 points and dead forever), or you can take a couple of scrolls to stop them dying before they even have a chance to get into combat. I like the third choice myself.


The biggest part of warhammer magic is learning what to allow and what not to. You can take most spells that cause 2d6 strength 4 hits to your unit. You can.

Of course. I will regularly let those sort of spells go against my army. I will let Vamp opponents raise to their heart's content. Do you see yet? Your entire argument is a fallacy: having a scroll or two does not stop wizards from casting, except for one or two times per battle.


Spells that effect movement however? I repeat the genius of the game is in the magic phase and you will never come to know that genius if all you ever do is throw in 4 dispel scrolls a game added in to your 6 dispel dice a game. Your opponent will never get a single spell off of note.

Mate: my army has 1 wizard with 2 scrolls. You're talking about taking extreme magic defence which I agree is rock/paper/scissors and ultimately dull. If you can just separate your condemnation of people that load up on ridiculous levels of magic defence from the existence of the dispel scroll in general, then we'll pretty much be in agreement.

So can you do that? Can you say... "Hey, the guy with 6DD and 4 scrolls, he's a chump. But the guy who has a scroll caddy... well that's ok, even if a scroll caddy isn't any fun."


I play Counts. I refuse to take a single scroll because I have always believed and still do they are for the weak.

Sadly that is why you are a hypocrite. Play with an army that gets no magic defence for turning up. Go on. Don't bring Balefire Carts. Bring a level 2 Vampire Lord and a couple of Wight Kings. Then when you say "I take no scrolls", yeah, you'll get some respect.


Hell when you scroll caddy I don't care. It just means you likely haven't gotten a single quality hero in your army worth a spit and when I get into hand to hand combat my Wight King ( imagine that a VC player who actually runs a wight king who is not the BSB) will decimate your hero with his Black Axe of Krell.

Holy christ, we are getting there. NB Scroll caddy is there to help ensure that my Chaos Lord and Exalted Hero have a chance of getting into combat and having a damn good scrap with glorious enemies like your Wight King :)


Also most of you guys who whine about magic heavy lists so you run dispel scrolls to counter it are the ones GUILTY the most of running heavy magic lists. If your packing alot of Dispel Scrolls that also means your packing a ton of heroes capable of casting spells. Most heavy hero/melee armies havent a scroll in them.

Complete fail. Most armies that are heavy hero/ melee will bring a scroll caddy. At least, that's how it is across the unrestricted UK tournament scene- it might be different in your local store. I think I know wat I put more stock in ;)


Instead of having 12 magic phases that play out dramatically as they were intended you know are lucky to see 3 phases that play out with all the passion of the theatre.

Change that quote to "12 minus part of one for every scroll", and you're right. But it doesn't have as great a ring to it ;)


Scrolls suck. And only the weak take them. The strong know better.

Yes, only the weak Slaaneshi Sorcerer Thrall in my army takes them, the big boys all hate him but know he's a necessary evil ;)


He got spirit of the forge off 5 times? you deserve to be punished for not kill the wizard.

Yeah, I mean I only thoroughly outplayed my opponent and forced his Supreme Sorceress on Dragon to pursue into my Chaos Lord where the Dragon was knocked down to half wounds but broke whilst another unit held in the combat, allowing the Dragon to rally and keep on casting... such appalling play I know! I should be ashamed of daring to use such horrific tic-tacs instead of taking 10 levels of magic and praying that I roll gateway, like a real warhammer master tactician! Grrr! :D


Spells like spirit, bolt, infernal gateway etc shouldnt exist in a no-scroll enviroment.

And when they don't, nor will the scroll caddy. But I'm not taking out my only magic defence first :D


Read much? If a moderate magic offence can prevail against a single caddy, don't take one.

Wait... so I'm happy that my opponent's Mage got her points back but didn't annihilate half my entire army by herself as it would definitely have done without the caddy... so I should drop the caddy.

Not one for logic, are you?


Spend the points on more troopers. Half my post was pointing out that I field absolutely NO magic defense beyond the 2 basic dice, and I don't complain even a slight little bit when things in my army go boom due to magic.

An extra unit of 20 Marauders probably would not have mattered a whole lot. Besides, I've already tried it. I know, from experience, as detailed in this thread (Yet of course every example I give, which is one of many is just a single enecodate that proves nothing- if only I'd been told I need to have my posts peer approved and published in major wargaming publications before I make them- who knew?). There is quite a big difference between Empire and Chaos, you know. Hell, go and make a tactica that explains how to keep a unit of Knights from being melted by Spirit of the Forge, in an age of mobile/large target wizards that can be guaranteed any spell they like. I would read it, I promise.


If you're so afraid of Lore of Metal, take some naked marauders to screen your ridiculously heavily armoured troops.

...because I'd really LOVE to know how I can screen a unit when the enemy level 4 is mounted on a Dragon, or is a Slann free to cast all the spells he likes. Educate me.


Conversely, go play ancients. You don't need to take scrolls in that.

Says the guy who plays Empire without gunpowder or magic? You asked me to point out your contradictions earlier... well, here we go. Or... how about, you keep playing the way you like, and I'll keep playing the way I like, and we both accept each others' armies as being fair and actually probably quite enjoyable, and we don't have a go at each other for it? Man, what an idea!

sulla
16-04-2009, 00:21
The only thing that really annoys me about magic is that casters are good at dispelling too.
It annoys me that i can stop magic by going magic heavy. I would be happier if most magic got cast or scrolled. But the idea that just by going magic heavy, you shut down the other guy's magic is annoying to me. I would prefer to see two magic heavy armies pummelling thew heck out of each other rather than both shutting nearly everything down.

Scrolls seem pretty fair to me. I aqlways have a hard time choosing between one shot scrolls or something to boost my casting throughout the whole battle.

R Man
16-04-2009, 00:49
I disagree EVC. People would actually have to learn how to use there dispel dice like they were ment to be used.

But thats the problem. Against say a 4 PD spell 4 DD can stop it, but it's essentially a 50/50. Either you stop it or you don't. And then you have nothing left to stop anything else. What it comes down to is do you take the 1/2 chance now, possibly get screwed anyway and face the wrath next spell, or hold off for now and use them next casting, and possibly fail anyway. DD's are simply not flexible enough.


I repeat the genius of the game is in the magic phase and you will never come to know that genius if all you ever do is throw in 4 dispel scrolls a game added in to your 6 dispel dice a game. Your opponent will never get a single spell off of note.

1st: The genius is not in the magic phase. Its in all phases based on the way players play and the limitations of the armies. And one of the reasons players need scrolls is that it's almost impossible to get 6 DD until recently. And its true that against such defense an reasonablee opponent will struggle, but A heavy magic amry will still burn through it fairly quickly.


I play Counts. I refuse to take a single scroll because I have always believed and still do they are for the weak.

Thats a fairly insulting thing to say, and very hypocritical. Regardless of your playing history VC are one of the most forgiving armies there is. VC cut out some of the most crittical parts of the game; psychology and casulaty management and you have no right to call others weak when you haven't faced these. Play orcs, maybe then you can talk.


It just means you likely haven't gotten a single quality hero in your army worth a spit and when I get into hand to hand combat my Wight King ( imagine that a VC player who actually runs a wight king who is not the BSB) will decimate your hero with his Black Axe of Krell.

Why does taking 1 scroll caddy prevent a player from taking combat heroes? And what about the fact that VC (being able to do both in 1 character) don't have to face that hard choice that other players do. Many armies simply don't have the option of creating a combat character that can defeat a powerful character in combat.


Also most of you guys who whine about magic heavy lists so you run dispel scrolls to counter it are the ones GUILTY the most of running heavy magic lists. If your packing alot of Dispel Scrolls that also means your packing a ton of heroes capable of casting spells. Most heavy hero/melee armies havent a scroll in them.

Not true. Most caddies are kept a Lvl 1 and this don't have many power dice, especially as these lists tend to forgo any items that boost PD. Magic heavy armies are actually just as bad as caddies against medium magic, because that many casters gives them alot of DD's.


You know you gotta cast enough spells that have no hope of going off just so at some point in the game you may be able to get a spell off. Instead of having 12 magic phases that play out dramatically as they were intended you know are lucky to see 3 phases that play out with all the passion of the theatre.

Alright, if you think all magic phases are to be critical, dramatic affairs, I want to start the battle in combat. And counting as charging. After all there are 12 close combats in a game, why should I have to, you know, manouvre into them?


Scrolls suck. And only the weak take them. The strong know better.

We'll get back to this later.


Thats untrue. You have ward saves and armor saves depending on the unit. I don't know a thing about wood elves but most armies can handle it. If you take the right troops and enough of them you can handle damage causing spells. You don't need to scroll every damage dealing spell that comes your way.

Not really. A the bulk of Infantry are still T 3 with 5+ saves and those that are better are quite pricy, especially the elves. And anyway, there are far more avenues of attack than just missiles.


High Elves has a ton of dispel dice to begin with. They have the Phboenix guard with good armor and a ward save. I know that much. And great leadership that causes them to stick around and in combat s group of 15 spearmen can be as effective as 20 if played right.

While its true that HE are good with DD and Phoenix Guard are very tough, the majority of elven units are still T3 5+ save, including sword masters. Given that the cheapest soldier is no tougher than a M@A and is almost twice the cost you can see how vulnerable the elves can be.


You talk of the Counts as not needing them because we have alot of dispel dice to begin with but you continue to ignore my comment that most people that have alot of dispel scrolls have a ton of magic to begin with because in most cases I am aware of it takes a mage to carry a dispel scroll to begin with.

As I said before this is essentially not true. One or maybe two items generate a DD. But there are several ways to get extra PD, even simple power stones that everyone can get.


And I chose to play VC for asthetics alone.

And I play my Bretonnians for the same reason. That doesn't mean that the charge wasn't a terrifying thing to face for the early 6th edition armies, and even some of the newer armies are still terrified by the prospects. Your reasons for playing an army are unrelated to the power level of that army.


All armies are powerful. If an army is weak on the table top it is ALWAYS because the man behind the army moving it is weak.

Not always true. A good general has an advantage, but even so bad luck and deficienties in the lists can cause an otherwise good general to have a bad day.


Staurikosaurus I think your way out of line name calling like that. This is a civil conversation and you are escalating it inappropriately. So please keep the insults to yourself.

He's way out of line? How dare you say that? Its incredibly hippocritcal. You've dismissed all the concerns of players and then procceded to continually insult them by calling them weak and poor generals. You then implicitly self-agrandise yourself for your deficit of scrolls completley ignoring the advantages of your own list. You've never had to deal your units panicking after being sprayed with liquid fire from a flame cannon, or the horror of seeing your units evaporate in front of a hellblaster, or held the dice in your shaking hand for that one crittical break test. For the most part your own army simply ignores the consequences of such attacks, and for those that it doesn't you can simply summon a zombie screen. Other players have to make best use of what they have; they haven't got the luxury of making something from nothing.

So before you judge other players on their attitude and skill, you should re-examine yourself first.

Shimmergloom
16-04-2009, 01:23
I play Counts. I refuse to take a single scroll because I have always believed and still do they are for the weak.

Wait. Let me get off the floor.

Finnigan2004
16-04-2009, 01:55
Sure you could save dice to stop them, but with these high csting spells you run the risk of not rolling high enough or rolling a double 1 and then taking a major hit.

Shouldn't there be some chance of those spells going off though Malorian? It costs power dice to cast them and points for the wizard. There is a chance of failing the casting roll or miscasting too. It's like having someone cannon snipe my general. There's always a chance of the game going down the drain (well, lots of points anyhow), but there should still be a chance of it working. We'd be better off with some sort of reworking, but the fact that it can be automatically undone seems quite out of place in a game where most success and failure depends on dice rolling.

Dranthar
16-04-2009, 02:07
Spirit of the Forge is cast on a basic 12. If I take 2 dispel dice, I have a one in 36 chance of stopping it.

Clearly, EVC, you just need to roll harder. :rolleyes:


A few points of note;

1. A High elf army with Teclis & a few mages with 3 dispel scrolls is just silly. I'm pretty sure Devil himself said it's way overkill and he's right - you will NEVER need that much magic defense against even the most magic-heavy armies. Thus it's less a matter of dispel scrolls being a crutch, and more a matter of the High Elf player making an inefficient army that just happens to frustrate players who rely heavily on magic.

2. It's been said quite a few times, but a VC player calling people who take dispel scrolls weak is quite hypocritical. VC armies already have alot of natural resistances to magic (immune to panic, recovering casualties, balefire and usually plenty of dispel dice to start with), so dispel scrolls aren't nearly as important to them as with other armies.
As R-man said, play a few games with orcs, and then see how you feel about dispel scrolls.

3. There is definitely a tactical element when it comes to using Dispel Scrolls. The player with them needs to choose the right spell to play them against, while the player against them is trying to draw those dispel scrolls out before s/he starts casting the more critical spells. The player against the dispel scrolls could even go for a ploy of getting a number of weaker spells off while your opponent waits to scroll a bigger spell that may never come.

Freakiq
16-04-2009, 07:57
Shouldn't there be some chance of those spells going off though Malorian? It costs power dice to cast them and points for the wizard. There is a chance of failing the casting roll or miscasting too. It's like having someone cannon snipe my general. There's always a chance of the game going down the drain (well, lots of points anyhow), but there should still be a chance of it working. We'd be better off with some sort of reworking, but the fact that it can be automatically undone seems quite out of place in a game where most success and failure depends on dice rolling.

But since the damage that will be caused if he succeeds is so great it should be hard to get it through.

The higher the reward is the harder the chance of success should be.

Staurikosaurus
16-04-2009, 08:12
Damnit, now I owe you a beer R Man. I hope you're of age. Incidentally, I wasn't calling anyone names, but I was handing out prizes :)

I think that all people posting in this thread can agree that we can't just drop scrolls with the current strength of the winds of magic.

However,

Related to the topic of whether or not scrolls or magic is overpowered in WFB, is what systems or methods would be better implemented to rectify the situation should you disagree with the way the magic system is currently run? A return to 5th? A different dice system? Arm wrestling? Roshambo (do high elves still strike first?)?

Perhaps something like any roll that includes a 1 is a miscast, with increasing numbers of 1s increasing the severity (and lethality of the miscast). Or perhaps something like a cancellation system, where in casting and dispelling any 1 cancels any 6.

Fenrir
16-04-2009, 09:12
Dispel scrolls are for the WEAK! Raarr!


What a prize tit that fellow is.

W0lf
16-04-2009, 09:28
I play vampires and i dont take dispel scrolls ether... not because im 'strong' but because vampires dont need scrolls. Hell i get 6 DD just for bringing 3 combat characters, not to mention i can raise dead stuff back. Anyone can see vampires dont need scrolls.

I hate scrolls but equally i hate stupidly powerful 6th spells; magic is my favourite part of the game but botht these elements ruin it.

Oh and EVC you never mentioned a Dragon lol, thats an even more extreme case, no?

Kerill
16-04-2009, 09:45
There is always going to be a fundamental disagreement based on fluff for this issue.

Read through the brb description of a level 1 mage, especially in the older rulebooks or in WFRP- they are very powerful mages far above the vast majority of spellcasters in power. A level 4 mage of any race is so rare as to almost be a SC. Should these individuals have the power to influence a battlefield in a setting where many times magic has made the difference between a war won or lost (history of the Empire before Teclis came, Nagash, vampires, slann etc.) any army without any magical protection should be annihilated without even the need for a battle. That wouldn't be much fun though and magic is greatly toned down from what it is in the background, scrolls aren't overpowered either as a result but scroll caddies are just dull beyond belief, both players should have to be involved in the magic phases, limiting scrolls by magic level would help with this.

Many will of course believe the opposite to be the case, and that the mightiest mages in the world should struggle to kill a couple of men in plate armour at a distance.

Some believe the miscast chart and current miscast rules are not enough, that casting spells should be much more dangerous, how of course Teclis, slann, Malekith and any other lord level caster survived their first war would then of course be a massive question for the fluff. Hell it would be amazing any wizard every passed an apprenticeship.

@EVC the fact you need a scroll caddy for a Khorne warrior force is an issue with Phil Kelly's writing of the book, not magic in general. And to get spirit off against you 5 times in one game is either very lucky (has to roll the spell and not miscast or fail to cast on 4/5 dice 5 times) and/or a lack of tic-tacs on your side of things. But you are right in that chaos cannot afford to let such spells through very often compared to empire or greenskins or undead. Of course armies of all chaos knights (not saying yours is) are begging to be raped by metal at some point.

@Dranthar, it's probably a tailored list and it means that magic will be entirely one sided, the scroll caddy is just there to cast drain magic and his scrolls so that no other army can get spells through (with Teclis there to destroy any really powerful ones).

@Devil, why do all your posts (here and in the conceding battles thread)lately make me think of Full Metal Jacket?

W0lf
16-04-2009, 10:28
Interesting point raisedabout miscasts.

I will rarely if ever write a list with less then 9 PD and even i find the miscast table too fair. I think that a miscast on a lvl 2 should have roughly 20% chance of killing him.

Rolls like 5-6, 7, 8 are far too friendly. IMO micast table should be more like;

2 - dead
3-4 - D6 S4 hits
5-6 enemy casts spell
7 - forgets spell
8-9 - current 10+11
10-11 - D6 S5 hits
12 - same

Then everyone would be very aware of the dangers of miscasts.

Crovax20
16-04-2009, 12:25
use the orcs and goblins miscast table instead xD

theunwantedbeing
16-04-2009, 12:47
Too many scrolls, too many mages, too many dispel dice.
As a result, you need to be really magic heavy or just very lucky to cast against such a defence.

Forget killing the caddy in combat or with shooting, he's in a wood in a unit that can't be got at.

So we clearly need a way for scrolls not to augment the already hefty pile of dispel dice, and to stop a mage (or group of them) throwing scrolls at every high level spell that comes their way.

Simple way would be to make a scroll convert a remaining dispel dice(or 2) into a scroll.

This way, 3 mages, each with 2 scrolls generates 5 dispel dice and has upto 6 scrolls.
If we convert 1 dispel dice into a scroll, you can use a maximum of 5 scrolls in any given turn.
If we convert 2 dispel dice into a scroll then you can use a maximum of 2 scrolls in any given turn with 1 remaining dispel dice (which lets face it, is doing nothing unless there's a bound spell to throw it at).

Also there's the bonus of if the enemy has run out of dice, his scrolls are worthless.

Braugi
16-04-2009, 12:50
EXACTLY!!!

This is why taking scrolls sucks. It actually encourages people to spam a ton of magic instead of discouraging it. Because you have to have a ton of magic to over come it.

Wanna play empire and have a balanced List with a Warrior priest. Sorry that priest will never get a single prayer off. It will be dispelled unless the warrior priest has a couple of decent mage sidekicks to suck up his dice and scrolls.


So for you people that field them thinking it discourages silly overpowered magical lists it actually has the opposite effect.


This all confirms what I already know. If you insist that scrolls are not broken ask yourself this personal question. Could I be biased with my thinking? Do I regularly run dispel scrolls in all my armies? I wonder if they may be broken since this thread shows that there are a number of people that believe that they are or that the game would be better without them?.

I repeat, dispel scrolls ruin the tactical element of the game. The game is more than balanced without them. To illustrate its like that movie gangs of New York ( a masterpeice of film imo).. When Butcher Bill asks Amsterdam which kind of weapons are allowed in the upcoming battle over the 5 points. Amsterdam declines to take guns. And Bill responds with " good boy". You see the Butcher appreciated that the boy had the pride and honor to actually compete in a fair fight. There is more skill in using a blade. Yet when one person brings a gun to a knife fight it is an omission that they are not as skilled as the other and need the guns to gain the advantage or to even it up. You didn't need to go there, the fight was fair as it was, but now we all have to consider taking guns just because you decided to go there. When someone takes a dispel scroll in my opinion its the same thing, it's like saying " I know I cant make up a good list or play well enough to counter this guy or his list so I will just use the old failsafe dispel scroll as a crutch.

I personally have the pride to say with truth that I have never taken a dispel scroll in a single game I have ever played. I plan to show everyone that you can win without them. So far in my wfb career I have record of 9 wins and 1 loss with my vc. This after just finishing a game not a half an hour ago ( my first game at 2250) against the Lizardmen with a decked out Slaan. I massacred him in turn 5 without a single dispel scroll. I would like to add also that the solitary loss was a technicality. My list was found to be illegal and conceded the fight. I am pretty new to warhammer and made a mistake. I printed off two different rosters off army builder and got the 2 armies mixed and was using two sheets from two different armies. I am not bragging or boasting. It is what it is. The fact that I could win so much without ever taking a scroll speaks for itself.

I challenge you players who continually to over indulge in the taking of dispel scrolls to raise to the next level. Playing without them will only make you a better player I promise you.

And I would argue that the power level of some spells is what takes the fun out of a game. Even with my high dispel dice dwarves, getting hit with the Pit of shades to automatically, with only an initiative test (which dwarves will never pass) to save, lose most of my most expensive unit of ironbreakers including my combat thane, no matter what equipment I have. Since I usually play against Lizardmen and my opponent uses a Slaan and takes the entire lore of shadows, then my only options to do anything are to take a couple scrolls or to drop the money to deploy my Anvil of Doom in order to get 7 dispel dice, and even then have a good chance of losing an entire unit to a spell I have literally no other defence for.

Most spells aren't that big of a deal, but those that ARE a big deal absolutely suck the fun out of the game for anyone who isn't using a magic heavy army. I don't mind spells like the hidden lurker, the hunters spear, etc, but its those really nasty things that offer no chance of defense that require the use of scrolls.

My other issue is the Blade of Realities, for the same reason, and for that I tend to use items that break magic items...

R Man
16-04-2009, 13:16
Damnit, now I owe you a beer R Man. I hope you're of age. Incidentally, I wasn't calling anyone names, but I was handing out prizes

If you bought be a beer it would be my pleasure to drink it.


Related to the topic of whether or not scrolls or magic is overpowered in WFB, is what systems or methods would be better implemented to rectify the situation should you disagree with the way the magic system is currently run? A return to 5th? A different dice system? Arm wrestling? Roshambo (do high elves still strike first?)?

Perhaps something like any roll that includes a 1 is a miscast, with increasing numbers of 1s increasing the severity (and lethality of the miscast). Or perhaps something like a cancellation system, where in casting and dispelling any 1 cancels any 6.

Did anyone read my idea? At least I think it was my idea. About each spell having 3 levels and dispel dice reducing the power dice roll? See the problem now is the just on DD's (without scrolls) a powerful 6 spell will be at best a 50/50, and if another caster has drawn out your dice earlier or the caster rolls high its over. But this would allow you to have a shot at weakening a spell without completely dispelling it, so even 1 or 2 dispel dice can be useful against a whole wad of them. Perhaps I should make something about that in the rules forum...

EvC
16-04-2009, 13:31
@EVC the fact you need a scroll caddy for a Khorne warrior force is an issue with Phil Kelly's writing of the book, not magic in general.

Yes, and that's a discussion that I've had elsewhere, and I'm fine with it.


And to get spirit off against you 5 times in one game is either very lucky (has to roll the spell and not miscast or fail to cast on 4/5 dice 5 times) and/or a lack of tic-tacs on your side of things.

You misread my post- quite spectacularly, I might add. He attempted to cast the spell 5 times, and did indeed miscast once, so got it off four times. Fortunately for some of my opponent's turns the Knights were in combat or had pursued off the table (I elected to have them charge a bolt thrower rather than take out 200 points of other units, just so that they would pursue off the table and be immune to magic for a turn: don't make out that it's down to any tactical failings on my part). So he was neither particularly lucky, nor was thrre anything more I could do tactics-wise to stop him. Nor could anyone say there was no tactical thought on my use of the scrolls- midgame when he cast SotF on my unit of Warriors I really agonised on whether to use my second scroll or not. I decided not to, and it was the correct decision as it meant that on his next attempt at melting my Knights, I could stop him.


But you are right in that chaos cannot afford to let such spells through very often compared to empire or greenskins or undead. Of course armies of all chaos knights (not saying yours is) are begging to be raped by metal at some point.

I'm guessing the same people who take 4 units of Knights also load up on magic heavy and so have lots of dispel dice anyway. Speaking of which, look, it's Wolf! :D


Oh and EVC you never mentioned a Dragon lol, thats an even more extreme case, no?

It's not really relevant to the discussion. Fact is (And fact is generally ignored) that level 4 wizards are usually either fairly well-protected, extremely mobile or both (Spellweavers go in woods; Archmages in Swordmasters/ Phoenix Guards; Slann in Temple Guard or behind terrain; and Dark Elf Supreme Sorceresses might be on a Pegasus or Dragon, and will quite often have Pendant of Khaleth too). The point is that a lot of the time merely assassinating the enemy mages is not always as easy as people make out. Especially for Chaos thanks to most assassins being characters and therefore having to challenge. In my game I had a good try at killing the single enemy Mage and failed. So it was a good thing I had some magic defence, surely?

LictorIntheGrass
16-04-2009, 14:29
"Spellweavers go in woods"? Please don't mention WEs in this thread feud. WEs doesn't stand out like the majority casters out there for the serious lack of powerdice and magic items other armies have.

Kerill
16-04-2009, 14:29
Chaos has lots of good assassins:
Marauder horsemen- cheap nasty and hitty enough to do the job 1.61 wounds on average to a typical mage on a 20mm base
Forsaken
Dragon ogres (excellent against mages in infantry)
Chaos knights

Hiding in the trees? Yep that's very awkward for your army, but not for all of them.

And basically you are saying that spirit of the forge didn't get that many points off against you- so how was that 300+ point mage overpowered?

Less characters and more units might make it a lot easier for mage hunting, light cav especially, WOC have one of the best mage hunting units.

But like I said this debate is always going to partly come down to how you see magic in the warhammer world and whether or not you like magic in the game. I like magic in fantasy games (not just WFB) and any list I make will have heavy magic, thinking that magic will win you the game though (VC+Tz daemons aside) is nonsense though in most cases.

There should be big powerful spells in warhammer and there should be ways to stop them, but both people should take part in the magic phase IMO.

Infernal gateway's instakill ability should never have been introduced though (even though I run a level 4 sorceror), that CAN suck the fun out of a game in some cases. Should be a 13+ spell with no instakill. Won't win a game on its own though even with instakill unless it hits a deathstar (in which case it's fair enough IMO, silly deathstars).

For most armies magic is a choice and builds can be competitive with or without it, armies that need it are generally a sign of bad design, or those where it makes them overpowered (VC) also need toning down.

EvC
16-04-2009, 15:27
And basically you are saying that spirit of the forge didn't get that many points off against you- so how was that 300+ point mage overpowered?

...umm, it wasn't, and I haven't even once so much as hinted that it was. Would you like me to go back and requote myself where I say how fair the game was with the one strong caster vs my scroll caddy? The point, which I shall repeat for the ninth or tenth time, was that because I had the scroll caddy, the amount of damage the enemy spellcaster did was limited to reasonable (but still painful- and rightly so at 300 points!) levels, that could be managed, so that we both had an enjoyable game, even though I had the audacity to take a pair of scrolls.

Kerill
16-04-2009, 16:47
Fair enough, well I guess we aren't really in different camps then, and I apologise if I've ascribed the views of others as in accordance with yours.

Scroll caddy's are still dull, dwarves and Khorne should never need to take them, if other armies were forced to take scrolls limited by casting levels it would be cool but I'm easy either way to be honest.

It does annoy me when people claim magic to be game winning (oft-cited exceptions) when in fact it isn't and is, in terms of damage potential, generally less than shooting ad its something you can do things about. (The fact that magic offense also increases magic defence and the greater protection/VP denial of wizards vs war machines against some armies making it worth its points).

Magic is, generally speaking, well balanced in 7th edition. In pre 6th edition (especially 4th) it was horrendously overpowered in terms of game balance, albeit not in fluff).

Sirroelivan
16-04-2009, 17:02
Did anyone read my idea? At least I think it was my idea. About each spell having 3 levels and dispel dice reducing the power dice roll? See the problem now is the just on DD's (without scrolls) a powerful 6 spell will be at best a 50/50, and if another caster has drawn out your dice earlier or the caster rolls high its over. But this would allow you to have a shot at weakening a spell without completely dispelling it, so even 1 or 2 dispel dice can be useful against a whole wad of them. Perhaps I should make something about that in the rules forum...

I read it and I rather liked it.

In general; magic is not only damage spells. It's very versatile, from buffing units, dealing damage, hindering enemy units, sniping characters, moving your own units,...

Movement magic can be very powerful when well used.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-04-2009, 17:17
Yeah, I mean I only thoroughly outplayed my opponent and forced his Supreme Sorceress on Dragon to pursue into my Chaos Lord where the Dragon was knocked down to half wounds but broke whilst another unit held in the combat, allowing the Dragon to rally and keep on casting... such appalling play I know! I should be ashamed of daring to use such horrific tic-tacs instead of taking 10 levels of magic and praying that I roll gateway, like a real warhammer master tactician! Grrr! :D
Actually you should be ashamed for not directing attacks at the sorceress. Why go for the dragon when you can gank the rider?


Wait... so I'm happy that my opponent's Mage got her points back but didn't annihilate half my entire army by herself as it would definitely have done without the caddy... so I should drop the caddy.

Not one for logic, are you?
So tell me, would you be happy if your however many point unit of chaos knights only killed half its value worth of stuff? That sorc on dragon costs 580 naked, 680 with full magic kit, I would hope she'd be nasty. Should your opponent be entitled to complain about the combat phase if your army had made it to his unscathed, because I'm pretty sure the results of that would've been skewed towards WoC.


An extra unit of 20 Marauders probably would not have mattered a whole lot. Besides, I've already tried it. I know, from experience, as detailed in this thread (Yet of course every example I give, which is one of many is just a single enecodate that proves nothing- if only I'd been told I need to have my posts peer approved and published in major wargaming publications before I make them- who knew?). There is quite a big difference between Empire and Chaos, you know. Hell, go and make a tactica that explains how to keep a unit of Knights from being melted by Spirit of the Forge, in an age of mobile/large target wizards that can be guaranteed any spell they like. I would read it, I promise.

There really aren't that many armies that can guarantee what spells they get. Even a DE lvl 4 with the tome of furion only gets 5 out of 6 spells. In fact, out of the armies that can guarantee getting all the spells, or which ones they get, how many of them can be 'mobile large targets'. (A slann in a TG unit only fits one of those critera).

As far as WoC not having a unit of knights melted by one of those mobile large targets who can get any spell they want anytime, I dunno, throw a character with a collar of khorne in there, and then throw your 4 dispel dice at it? If he's only got the one caster he can only attempt it once. You already have a sorc to act as a scroll caddy... Throw the black tongue/infernal puppet on him, she's going to fail to cast at some point, otherwise you can always blame luck ;)



...because I'd really LOVE to know how I can screen a unit when the enemy level 4 is mounted on a Dragon, or is a Slann free to cast all the spells he likes. Educate me.
You can't. Better take more scrolls, seeing as how it's your absolute only option and you will get completely and utterly destroyed by one character if you don't stack up on them. Never mind that any large target that gets all the spells is stupidly expensive. Wouldn't want them to make their points back and maybe some extra right?


Says the guy who plays Empire without gunpowder or magic? You asked me to point out your contradictions earlier... well, here we go. Or... how about, you keep playing the way you like, and I'll keep playing the way I like, and we both accept each others' armies as being fair and actually probably quite enjoyable, and we don't have a go at each other for it? Man, what an idea!

There's no contradiction there. I play without gunpowder or magic because it fits the theme of my army, and all. I played High Elves for 16 years, and eventually towards the end before I sold them, I started running with no cavalry, and no magic as well. More for a challenge than anything else. (this was in 6th ed btw.) That doesn't mean I don't like magic, and don't think that it should be an important part of the game. Quite frankly, I have no problems with magic being as devastating as CC, or Shooting, and I really don't understand why other people do, (although most of them seem to play armies that favour CC units.)

Ultimately, my point is, for every personal anecdote you can come up with to prove how scrolls are needed, other people can come up with the opposite. In 21 years of WFB, I've never taken a scroll, and have never felt particularly disadvantaged for not having done so. I do believe that the current system is skewed towards the caster in a small way, and should be brought back in line with the 4th/5th ed system (without the cards though), where at least you got the same number of magic cards barring the odd 1, rather than half the dispel dice compared to power dice.

Mind you, back then, spells were actually devastating, as opposed to the friendly stuff we have now. :p

Wasn't really intending to 'have a go' at you as you put it, you just seem to be one of the more outspoken scroll advocates out there. I'm also a sarcastic bastard most of the time, so apologies if I caused offense, none was intended.

EvC
16-04-2009, 17:44
Actually you should be ashamed for not directing attacks at the sorceress. Why go for the dragon when you can gank the rider?

...it's statements like this that really do make me wonder if you have played a game in the last few months, especially involving the armies that I've been mentioning here.

Just think for a second: why would a player who has a high-strength Lord NOT be directing attacks towards a seemingly naked Dark Elf Lord-level spellcaster? (Tip: there's only one other character in the Dark Elf army, and that's a BSB with Hydra Banner)

If you haven't yet worked it out, then I invite someone else to answer the question and expose your own shame ;)


So tell me, would you be happy if your however many point unit of chaos knights only killed half its value worth of stuff? That sorc on dragon costs 580 naked, 680 with full magic kit, I would hope she'd be nasty. Should your opponent be entitled to complain about the combat phase if your army had made it to his unscathed, because I'm pretty sure the results of that would've been skewed towards WoC.

We both played using a combination of tactics and luck. Just as I was guaranteed to stop a couple of his spells, he was pretty much guaranteed to send one of my frenzied units charging off in a direction of his choosing. But rather than whine about how it was a sure thing and how he should feel bad for playing the game, I just get on with it, and do my best to counter those counters, or make the counters less powerful. That's what makes it a game!


There really aren't that many armies that can guarantee what spells they get. Even a DE lvl 4 with the tome of furion only gets 5 out of 6 spells. In fact, out of the armies that can guarantee getting all the spells, or which ones they get, how many of them can be 'mobile large targets'. (A slann in a TG unit only fits one of those critera).

There's no guarantee, but they'll usually roll one spell worth having or not. Either way, I don't want my games decided by "Did my opponent roll a 6 or not when choosing spells?". Now that would be dull.


As far as WoC not having a unit of knights melted by one of those mobile large targets who can get any spell they want anytime, I dunno, throw a character with a collar of khorne in there, and then throw your 4 dispel dice at it?

Crap suggestion. My Lord is already MR1 from his Jugger, I'm not spending another 25 points to upgrade him by 1 point of magic resistance, nor do I feel like taking my BSB off his nice characterful chariot and adding him to the unit. You'd only tell me I'm stupid for creating such an "all eggs in one basket" unit, after all!


If he's only got the one caster he can only attempt it once. You already have a sorc to act as a scroll caddy... Throw the black tongue/infernal puppet on him, she's going to fail to cast at some point, otherwise you can always blame luck ;)

So instead I should take a Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet? And take off the magic items that make my characters worth using and put the Black Tongue on one of my other characters too? Well, it's an idea... and one I already tried. Got caned by Beasts with 9 power dice, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. When you don't build armies with the aim of "GATEWAY FTW" in mind, the Infernal Puppet is not going to win you any games... well, it might occasionally modify a miscast to a double one, but that's a far duller way of winning games than a scroll ever will be.

Besides, we're talking about magic defence here- if my opponent is failing to cast spells and miscasting, then things are probably ok. I need advice on how to handle things when my opponent isn't kind enough to botch his dicerolls!!


You can't. Better take more scrolls, seeing as how it's your absolute only option and you will get completely and utterly destroyed by one character if you don't stack up on them. Never mind that any large target that gets all the spells is stupidly expensive. Wouldn't want them to make their points back and maybe some extra right?

Again, you have fallen into the moronic "must make any old counter-argument, no matter how dumb it is" mindset, because you know there is no valid counterargument. A Slann or any other major mage that spends 4/6 turns casting powerful spells, and getting most of them off will easily make its points back- or at least, make some headway into that chasm, whilst still providing leadership benefits and probably denying points. If he only casts Spirit of the Forge 3 times rather than 5, then I think he should do okay.


Ultimately, my point is, for every personal anecdote you can come up with to prove how scrolls are needed, other people can come up with the opposite. In 21 years of WFB, I've never taken a scroll, and have never felt particularly disadvantaged for not having done so.

And you have so far played zero games using Warriors of Chaos against enemies with a bit of magic. These are not just personal anecdotes, these are real-game experiences. If I just said "I don't think my army [Not YOUR army, or an underpriced Dark Elf horde army, or a Vampire Counts army with 5DD as standard] can survive without a couple of scrolls", then you'd jump on me and tell me to go try it out before I run my mouth off. So I have. And these are the results. Honestly presented, and objective.


Wasn't really intending to 'have a go' at you as you put it, you just seem to be one of the more outspoken scroll advocates out there. I'm also a sarcastic bastard most of the time, so apologies if I caused offense, none was intended.

Good man, none intended back, although if you're going to use sarcasm, please at least do so in a manner that makes logical sense. If you can't answer a question of mine, sarcasm won't make the point I've made go away, no matter how much you might wish it did ;)

Kerill
16-04-2009, 18:05
.When you don't build armies with the aim of "GATEWAY FTW" in mind, the Infernal Puppet is not going to win you any games... well, it might occasionally modify a miscast to a double one, but that's a far duller way of winning games than a scroll ever will be.



You keep bringing this up, you play a Khorne list mate, claiming people who have access to a level 4 Tz caster needs no skill is wrong and with one of most point and click lists in warhammer, a bit dodgy.

Lord Zarkov
16-04-2009, 18:12
Frenzybait => less point and click then they otherwise would be.
I'd argue Nugle or Slaanesh WoC are more point n click

Freakiq
16-04-2009, 18:18
You keep bringing this up, you play a Khorne list mate, claiming people who have access to a level 4 Tz caster needs no skill is wrong and with one of most point and click lists in warhammer, a bit dodgy.

A magic heavy list it tends to play itself, the only strategical part is writing the list which anyone can do.

Once you reach the table you only have to choose a target and hope for yahtzee.

nosferatu1001
16-04-2009, 18:19
A khorne list is point and click? uttter cr*p. A pure khorne WoC list is one of the least powerful of the builds....hell any pure Woc or DoC Khorne list is pretty weak. Not generating DD means you are stuck with 2DD as standard, and you dont even get sundering if you're WoC....

The Gateway spam lists are a lot more point and click, as you have manouverability to ensure you get LoS - not all spell casters have to be LARGE flying mounts to be more than effective at removing your screens from the equation, just be flying.

Scrolls could be considered overpowered, however in the face of army destroying levels of magic they are most certianly not "broken" - the whole magic phase needs rebalancing to remove the definite need for scroll caddies at tournament levels.

Kerill
16-04-2009, 18:24
A khorne list is point and click? uttter cr*p. A pure khorne WoC list is one of the least powerful of the builds....hell any pure Woc or DoC Khorne list is pretty weak. Not generating DD means you are stuck with 2DD as standard, and you dont even get sundering if you're WoC....

The Gateway spam lists are a lot more point and click, as you have manouverability to ensure you get LoS - not all spell casters have to be LARGE flying mounts to be more than effective at removing your screens from the equation, just be flying.

Scrolls could be considered overpowered, however in the face of army destroying levels of magic they are most certianly not "broken" - the whole magic phase needs rebalancing to remove the definite need for scroll caddies at tournament levels.

Played one myself for a while and through two tournaments (battle reps on the herdstone if you are bored). Pure point and click- I agree they aren't, but claiming that one spell makes the game and playing that list requires no skill- even greater nonsense.

And btw, gateway doesn't need LOS. and you can't gateway spam when only one caster in the army (might) get it and can cast it at best once per phase.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-04-2009, 20:35
...it's statements like this that really do make me wonder if you have played a game in the last few months, especially involving the armies that I've been mentioning here.

Just think for a second: why would a player who has a high-strength Lord NOT be directing attacks towards a seemingly naked Dark Elf Lord-level spellcaster? (Tip: there's only one other character in the Dark Elf army, and that's a BSB with Hydra Banner)

If you haven't yet worked it out, then I invite someone else to answer the question and expose your own shame ;)

You never mentioned that there were only 2 characters in the list. I naturally assumed that the pendant was on a dreadlord in a unit of BG or Shades or something.



We both played using a combination of tactics and luck. Just as I was guaranteed to stop a couple of his spells, he was pretty much guaranteed to send one of my frenzied units charging off in a direction of his choosing. But rather than whine about how it was a sure thing and how he should feel bad for playing the game, I just get on with it, and do my best to counter those counters, or make the counters less powerful. That's what makes it a game!

There's no guarantee, but they'll usually roll one spell worth having or not. Either way, I don't want my games decided by "Did my opponent roll a 6 or not when choosing spells?". Now that would be dull.
The thing is, the entire game ultimately boils down to situations like that. "Will my opponent pass the break test to stick me in combat so he can flank charge me?" "Will I roll enough 4+'s to give me the combat res I need to win this crucial fight?" And my personal favorite "Will I win the roll to go first so that I don't get blasted to crap before I can move the parts of my army that had to deploy out of cover because I have too many damn units on the board?"

I'm pretty sure we've all had games decided by a couple die rolls, no matter how much we'd like to play up the grand strategies, and tactical brilliance.


Crap suggestion. My Lord is already MR1 from his Jugger, I'm not spending another 25 points to upgrade him by 1 point of magic resistance, nor do I feel like taking my BSB off his nice characterful chariot and adding him to the unit. You'd only tell me I'm stupid for creating such an "all eggs in one basket" unit, after all!
Take him off the jugger, put him on a steed. MR2 is better than 1. Besides, a unit of chaos knights is already pretty much an eggs+basket unit given the cost of each guy, can't really do much to make it worse. But then, if you've built your guys the way you want em it isn't going to work.


So instead I should take a Sorcerer with Infernal Puppet? And take off the magic items that make my characters worth using and put the Black Tongue on one of my other characters too? Well, it's an idea... and one I already tried. Got caned by Beasts with 9 power dice, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. When you don't build armies with the aim of "GATEWAY FTW" in mind, the Infernal Puppet is not going to win you any games... well, it might occasionally modify a miscast to a double one, but that's a far duller way of winning games than a scroll ever will be.
Obviously not everything works every time. Otherwise we'd all be undefeated. Just a couple off the cuff non-scroll suggestions. Obviously none of them are as cheap or reliable as a scroll, but then, that's the whole point of this discussion no?


Besides, we're talking about magic defence here- if my opponent is failing to cast spells and miscasting, then things are probably ok. I need advice on how to handle things when my opponent isn't kind enough to botch his dicerolls!!
Let's face it. DE are a very very stupid case since they have the stupid pendant of invincibility. I overcome magic by purchasing more cheap bodies to absorb the casualties. WoC obviously can't do this. About the only thing I can think of is bare bones Marauder horse to make suicide runs at the sorc. If you keep them at S3 or 4, the pendant is less likely to save her sorry @ss. Catching a dragon is a challenge in an of itself however.

I don't think though, that you can really effectively say that because some armies can make their mages nigh invincible, scrolls must be provided. It's more a fault with certain army books than anything else. The DE player in my group uses the pendant on his fighty chars, so I've never had a problem ganking his mages, or any others save the super slann in giant temple guard unit with Chakax.


Again, you have fallen into the moronic "must make any old counter-argument, no matter how dumb it is" mindset, because you know there is no valid counterargument. A Slann or any other major mage that spends 4/6 turns casting powerful spells, and getting most of them off will easily make its points back- or at least, make some headway into that chasm, whilst still providing leadership benefits and probably denying points. If he only casts Spirit of the Forge 3 times rather than 5, then I think he should do okay.
Again, I would hope that a mage would have the opportunity to make his points back or close to it. Just like I hope that any of my units perform in the same capacity, or else I'd constantly be losing games. Focusing on SotF is IMO rather foolish as it only has a really major effect against a very select few armies. As for WoC, Marauders don't tend to take nearly as many casualties from it compared to knights or warriors with shields.


And you have so far played zero games using Warriors of Chaos against enemies with a bit of magic. These are not just personal anecdotes, these are real-game experiences. If I just said "I don't think my army [Not YOUR army, or an underpriced Dark Elf horde army, or a Vampire Counts army with 5DD as standard] can survive without a couple of scrolls", then you'd jump on me and tell me to go try it out before I run my mouth off. So I have. And these are the results. Honestly presented, and objective.
Partially true. I haven't run WoC at all, ever. They've never really appealed to me. I played HE for 16 years, switched out for VC for a while, (6th ed) ditched them for a while as too boring, picked up a BoC army and started building up my Empire/DoW force. In all that time, I've come up against magic heavy, no-magic, magic lite and everything in between, and still have never felt I needed to take a scroll to compete.

Unless you run thousands and thousands of games in a controlled environment it's all just anecdotal evidence. Yours is, mine is, and it's all coloured by personal opinion to some extent.


Good man, none intended back, although if you're going to use sarcasm, please at least do so in a manner that makes logical sense. If you can't answer a question of mine, sarcasm won't make the point I've made go away, no matter how much you might wish it did ;)

Oh, I don't really care if the point goes away or not. I don't use scrolls, I don't really suffer much if other people do either, (since I don't field mages). I disagree with them more in principle than anything else. I've loved magic forever, but hated the magic system since 6th edition. If they would've retained some of the offense/defense balance of the old card based system, but toned the spells down from the cataclysmic effects of those editions it would be perfect.

IMO they should get rid of scrolls, and just go with something to the effect that each army gets their base 2 dice, but the army whos turn it isn't (the dispelling army) gets a number of dispel dice equal to half the opponent's power dice. (or any other ratio that makes you happy) Thus you wouldn't need to take a bucket of mages to defend yourself against magic, but you wouldn't have so many dice / scrolls that the guy who invested in it couldnt' get anything through. That would, in your 6pd situation have given you 4dd to his 6pd without factoring in MR on any of your stuff. Personally, I think that would be more than fair. Mileage may vary of course.

Devil
17-04-2009, 00:23
Quote
Also most of you guys who whine about magic heavy lists so you run dispel scrolls to counter it are the ones GUILTY the most of running heavy magic lists. If your packing alot of Dispel Scrolls that also means your packing a ton of heroes capable of casting spells. Most heavy hero/melee armies havent a scroll in them.



Complete fail. Most armies that are heavy hero/ melee will bring a scroll caddy. At least, that's how it is across the unrestricted UK tournament scene- it might be different in your local store. I think I know wat I put more stock in



This is you quoting me and saying im full o crap I take it?

I just don't understand how you can refute that people who take a ton of scrolls have alot of casters to begin with since any time you take a scroll the person packing it must be a wizard of sorts. At least thats my limited understanding so far. A heavy melee is not able to take near as many scrolls as a heavy magic list. Its the way the game was written. to argue likewise is nonesense.



You say I am a hypocrite for boasting that I never have nor will I ever take a scroll because I play " Vampire Counts". That is so ignorant I have trouble even writing it out.
Everyone hates the counts. Everyone says they are not fair. Everyone cries about them yet down at the local bunker it was the lizardmen with a SLaan build that took home the first place prize. This over the top of a VC army in the second round.

Who won the GT this year? Im sorry was that High Elves?


More and more GREAT players prove that VC lists can be defeated. IF you can't defeat one then you are not a great player....Sorry.


When the day comes and I have some space in my heart for a second army I will not run any dispel scrolls either. Not unless a new edition comes out and they change the way they work. There are to many other more creative ways to stop someones magic. All you have to do is bury your nose in the codex to find them.


If you have half a brain and some self restraint you can assure with as little as 4 to 5 dispel dice that you stop the game winning spells from going off. The trick is to actually determine with accuracy which of the spells your opponent casts is game winning and which you can handle.




I say again and I can say it without being a hypocrite because I have never taken a scroll. Dispel scrolls are for the weak. Those of you bothered by this statement the most are the ones guilty of using scrolls the most. The army I play has nothing to do with it. If anything the fact that I COULD take a crap load of scrolls since all my heroes are virtually wizards and do not speaks for itself.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-04-2009, 00:34
I am still amuse of how Devil and couple of others in this thread have a problem with a simple 2000pts list that has a single level 1 with a couple of scrolls.

5 dispel dice is not the average, it means you either took a mage lord or all your hero choices are casters, that's not average by any means. At least not from the lists i usually encounter where i play or in this forums.

4 dispel dice on the other hand with no scrolls do not have a decent chance of stopping a list of 10+ PD which may have also some bound spells running around. And if you state otherwise i kind of think it's due to your lack of experience playing using such a list.

As for the HE winning tournaments, sure they do; but also most (if not all) HE overly competetive tournament armies are either magic heavy (so no point whinning over scrolls there) or dragon heavy (which is whole different 7th edition issue).


Quote
I say again and I can say it without being a hypocrite because I have never taken a scroll. Dispel scrolls are for the weak. Those of you bothered by this statement the most are the ones guilty of using scrolls the most. The army I play has nothing to do with it. If anything the fact that I COULD take a crap load of scrolls since all my heroes are virtually wizards and do not speaks for itself.

At the end of the day you are a VC player, your army is the one army that can work wonders with no scrolls. You can go on with the whole "when i play something else i still won't take scrolls" speech but it is just that, a speech. You should experience the game from a different point of view before having the authority to say what you would do once you are there.

W0lf
17-04-2009, 00:43
I'm guessing the same people who take 4 units of Knights also load up on magic heavy and so have lots of dispel dice anyway. Speaking of which, look, it's Wolf!

firstly its W0lf. Its a zero, i dont call you evc ;)

Not once used ether 4 knight units or 4 wizards.

Infact my mono-Tz is;

sorc lord
sorc
sorc
2x 24 marauders
17 warriors w/blasted
6 knights with warbanner
2x 5 hounds
1x 5 marauder horse

Well broken eh?


If you want to comment on cheese please refer to my vamps ;)

Oh and mounted khorne WoC w/scroll caddy is so easy to play its laughable. Hell its easier to win with then a vampire army. (Note not more broken, thats diffrent)

R Man
17-04-2009, 00:51
I just don't understand how you can refute that people who take a ton of scrolls have alot of casters to begin with since any time you take a scroll the person packing it must be a wizard of sorts. At least thats my limited understanding so far. A heavy melee is not able to take near as many scrolls as a heavy magic list. Its the way the game was written. to argue likewise is nonesense.

As I said before, a wizard or two doesn't always mean great magical potency. I will explain again; a scroll caddy is usually only lvl 1, and so only generates 1 PD and has 1 spell. In addition to be an effective scroll caddy a player must spend the wizards magic allowance on scrolls rather than any offensive items. Thus a caddy or two does not bring a great magical offense.


You say I am a hypocrite for boasting that I never have nor will I ever take a scroll because I play " Vampire Counts". That is so ignorant I have trouble even writing it out.
Everyone hates the counts. Everyone says they are not fair. Everyone cries about them yet down at the local bunker it was the lizardmen with a SLaan build that took home the first place prize. This over the top of a VC army in the second round.

Who won the GT this year? Im sorry was that High Elves?

How does the success or faliure of other armies affect the VC's magical defenses in anyway? Regardless of where the HE finished that will not ever change the fact that VC have the perfect set up to deflect and absorb magic damage.


When the day comes and I have some space in my heart for a second army I will not run any dispel scrolls either. Not unless a new edition comes out and they change the way they work. There are to many other more creative ways to stop someones magic. All you have to do is bury your nose in the codex to find them.

And until that day comes and you actually try this all your intent is are thoughts inside your head and words on a screen.


If you have half a brain and some self restraint you can assure with as little as 4 to 5 dispel dice that you stop the game winning spells from going off. The trick is to actually determine with accuracy which of the spells your opponent casts is game winning and which you can handle.

1st of all 5 DD is exceptional, most armies will only have 3 or 4. Second, you would be already outnumbered by a single Level 4 (6 PD).
2nd: If a wizard lord has a single hero Lvl 2 caster then what are the DD's going to do about them? If you dispel them then what's stopping that big spell? Its down to miscast and you wasted your DD's. And even if you take the second level's damage, you chance at dispelling a 4 PD spell with 4 DD of your own is little better than chance.

EvC
17-04-2009, 00:53
Devil- where you went wrong was "Most heavy hero/melee armies havent a scroll in them". This is false, end of story. You're right that armies that go magic heavy can take lots of scrolls, sure, but are you really saying that the same people who whine about magic heavy lists are the people going magic heavy? Because even a 12 year-old should be able to see that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. ...are you even 12 years old?

Also: Dwarfs. 4 scrolls, 1 spell destroyer, +2 to dispel, and not a wizard in sight. And no fun either!

"If you have half a brain and some self restraint you can assure with as little as 4 to 5 dispel dice that you stop the game winning spells from going off. The trick is to actually determine with accuracy which of the spells your opponent casts is game winning and which you can handle."

No ***** sherlock. Now tell me how an army with 2 or 3 dispel dice can do the same.

Also if you ever pop over to the largest Vampire Counts forums on the internet (Carpe Noctem), do take a look at some of my posts over there. Quite why you assume I am a Vampire Counts hater I don't know. I can only guess it's because you're a bit simple.

Now, to talk with the grown-ups, with whom I can have interesting discussions!


You never mentioned that there were only 2 characters in the list. I naturally assumed that the pendant was on a dreadlord in a unit of BG or Shades or something.

I mentioned a Supreme Sorceress on Dragon- who must have been the Lord choice therefore. And if you see someone like me saying how they went for the Dragon, you really should have been able to work out why ;)




I'm pretty sure we've all had games decided by a couple die rolls, no matter how much we'd like to play up the grand strategies, and tactical brilliance.

But ones before deployment that are entirely regardless of skill? It's like when I played against Shamfrit recently, he was rolling his Slann's 5 spells, and didn't get the top spell in the list. "Ok I concede" he said, knowing that he wouldn't be able to blast my one-off Daemon list with Cleansing Flares. As it was he played and did very well, getting the win.


Obviously not everything works every time. Otherwise we'd all be undefeated. Just a couple off the cuff non-scroll suggestions. Obviously none of them are as cheap or reliable as a scroll, but then, that's the whole point of this discussion no?

Nah, the point is to answer the question: are scrolls broken. Answer: no, they're not. Sub-question: is it bad to take a scroll in an army that is very vulnerable to magic, without any other magic defence available? Answer: no, of course not. That's pretty much all I'm saying- whilst also having to deflect accusations that I'm a bad player who hates magic.


If you keep them at S3 or 4, the pendant is less likely to save her sorry @ss. Catching a dragon is a challenge in an of itself however.

There are always counters- but they always take time to set up. Good thing the scroll exists then, to help get the army into position.


I don't think though, that you can really effectively say that because some armies can make their mages nigh invincible, scrolls must be provided.

No, that was a counter-argument: that because mages can be easily assassinated, scrolls are lame. It's not only a complete non sequitur, but also demonstrably false. If the only option is to assassinate the enemy mages, and some mages cannot be assassinated, then it's only fair that other options exist. Good thing I have a pair of scrolls then, to buy me a little time!


The DE player in my group uses the pendant on his fighty chars, so I've never had a problem ganking his mages, or any others save the super slann in giant temple guard unit with Chakax.

I'd love to see an Empire army ganking any regular old Slann in any regular old unit of Temple Guard.


Focusing on SotF is IMO rather foolish as it only has a really major effect against a very select few armies. As for WoC, Marauders don't tend to take nearly as many casualties from it compared to knights or warriors with shields.

There's general and specific. As long as there are armies out there that can only survive through a bit of guaranteed magic defence - and by now I hope you can accept that I have proved this is the case - then the existence of scrolls is justified.


Unless you run thousands and thousands of games in a controlled environment it's all just anecdotal evidence. Yours is, mine is, and it's all coloured by personal opinion to some extent.

The thing is, as long as one person can show his army needs scrolls to have a chance against moderate armies, it doesn't matter how many counter-examples you can come up with. That justifies scrolls in one army, and as soon as you can justify the existence of scrolls in one army, you'll see that other armies need some extra magic defence too.


IMO they should get rid of scrolls, and just go with something to the effect that each army gets their base 2 dice, but the army whos turn it isn't (the dispelling army) gets a number of dispel dice equal to half the opponent's power dice. (or any other ratio that makes you happy) Thus you wouldn't need to take a bucket of mages to defend yourself against magic, but you wouldn't have so many dice / scrolls that the guy who invested in it couldnt' get anything through. That would, in your 6pd situation have given you 4dd to his 6pd without factoring in MR on any of your stuff. Personally, I think that would be more than fair. Mileage may vary of course.

Great ideas, certainly. As long as people realise the first step cannot be: "no more scrolls". Lower the magic power, then lower the defences.


You keep bringing this up, you play a Khorne list mate, claiming people who have access to a level 4 Tz caster needs no skill is wrong and with one of most point and click lists in warhammer, a bit dodgy.

No, I was specifically referring to how the Infernal Puppet and Black Tongue combo has little defensive value for Warriors, and more how it is only really any good in a magic-heavy list where you can shift the result to a free Gateway or other powerful spell. Go read Mae's post on taking Vilitch, three Tzeentch levels 2s with Tongue and Puppet for a great example.

Devil
17-04-2009, 02:06
You clearly do not know me. If i say something I mean it. I care not weather you wanna **** on it and call it a lie because I only play this army or I only play that army.

At the end of the day it's just a cppl of people crying that my army is "cheese" and its no fair and waahh...and if I played another army I wouldn't be saying the things I say.



It's BS. You don't get to tell me with any accuracy what words I mean and which I dont. You don't know me and If I say I will never use dispel scrolls I mean it. I am very good at these games and just because I choose to play VC does not mean I don't look at other codex's or build other lists on army builder for different armies. Any gamer with a small amount of wit and brains can but look at the armies hes faced and realize the mistakes they make and what they would do differently were they at the helm of there army. IF your unable to do that then your clearly not that great a strategist.


There are alot of VC players who do run dispel scroll lists. I am not one of them. As well there are alot of players I know personally who choose not to run dispel scrolls that do not play VC and they do quite well. People can do it. They do not need that crutch. It still stands they are for the weak. Just because I play VC you act like that means I cannot truly understand the entirety of warammer. As if I live in some plastic bubble in seclusion from the rest of the gaming community. Hogwash. Thats right I actually used the word Hogwash.!

Rioghan Murchadha
17-04-2009, 02:52
I mentioned a Supreme Sorceress on Dragon- who must have been the Lord choice therefore. And if you see someone like me saying how they went for the Dragon, you really should have been able to work out why ;)
Yeah, for some reason I wanted to think you were playing a 3k game. Don't know why. I also refuse to believe someone would put the pendant on a magic user riding a dragon, but then, that's what you get for assuming people are generally good.



But ones before deployment that are entirely regardless of skill? It's like when I played against Shamfrit recently, he was rolling his Slann's 5 spells, and didn't get the top spell in the list. "Ok I concede" he said, knowing that he wouldn't be able to blast my one-off Daemon list with Cleansing Flares. As it was he played and did very well, getting the win.

Sure. That last thing I mentioned about the roll to go first has cost me games due to the inability to deploy my entire army behind terrain because it contains so many bodies. The general can't be within 12" of all of them, and cascading panic (Empire's best friend) due to magic/shooting on my enemy's first turn has from time to time decided the game. I do find however that conceding just because you don't randomly generate a certain spell feels somewhat wrong.


Nah, the point is to answer the question: are scrolls broken. Answer: no, they're not. Sub-question: is it bad to take a scroll in an army that is very vulnerable to magic, without any other magic defence available? Answer: no, of course not. That's pretty much all I'm saying- whilst also having to deflect accusations that I'm a bad player who hates magic.
Broken no, Lame yes. I would rather aim for a magic system/phase where cheap guaranteed dispels weren't required. I don't think I accused you of hating magic, but then I refuse to go back and read the scads of material I posted previously. Most people who champion the dispel scroll however, seem to be of the stripe that consider losing a single model to it the height of cheese.


No, that was a counter-argument: that because mages can be easily assassinated, scrolls are lame. It's not only a complete non sequitur, but also demonstrably false. If the only option is to assassinate the enemy mages, and some mages cannot be assassinated, then it's only fair that other options exist. Good thing I have a pair of scrolls then, to buy me a little time!
Wasn't meant to be a counter argument. Scrolls are lame because they are lame (see above comments). Mage assassination was one of the non-scroll magic defense options I suggested. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.


I'd love to see an Empire army ganking any regular old Slann in any regular old unit of Temple Guard.
Me too man, me too. :p I just have to try to take shelter behind the piled bodies of state troopers.


There's general and specific. As long as there are armies out there that can only survive through a bit of guaranteed magic defence - and by now I hope you can accept that I have proved this is the case - then the existence of scrolls is justified.
I don't know that I would agree with that being the absolute only method of survival, but even so, scrolls are still lame ;)


The thing is, as long as one person can show his army needs scrolls to have a chance against moderate armies, it doesn't matter how many counter-examples you can come up with. That justifies scrolls in one army, and as soon as you can justify the existence of scrolls in one army, you'll see that other armies need some extra magic defence too.

I suppose I could be willing to accept that other people might feel that they require guaranteed magic defense in their army. I still disagree with the 100% effective nature in principle however. Perhaps switch it so that you have to use the scroll as soon as the caster announces he's casting the spell but before he rolls. That way, he can't cast it again anyway, as he's already tried (vampires excepted), but he doesn't have to go through the rigmarole of rolling dice, potentially miscasting, etc. (all that random crap that the scroll user never has to deal with).


Great ideas, certainly. As long as people realise the first step cannot be: "no more scrolls". Lower the magic power, then lower the defences.

Once again, I blame the army book writers. The main book lores are pretty middle of the road (Fine, Lore of Metal #6 hoops chaos knights (and Empire knights mind you)), but still, it tends to be the army specific lores that really bring out the "Must dispel at all costs" mentality.

Devil
17-04-2009, 03:11
actually alot of people over look the fact that that spell only hits 2d6 worth of models. It doesn't just cause 2d6 hits. Knights are usually low in number so it can only hit each knight usually once in a given casting. Now I know they don't get there armor save and a strength 6 or 7 hit for each of your knights is nothing to balk, still it lessens the potency of that spell. All the more reason to save your dispel dice until a big one like this rears its head.

EvC
17-04-2009, 03:20
Actually they errata'ed the spell to make it a straight out 2D6 hits, rather than models like it used to say. If it was only 2D6 models I could probably be convinced to drop the spell, as if cast it is only going to destroy one unit in my army. However at present if it goes off once, that's typically my Knights dead, then if it happens a second time then it's probably my Lord or my Chariot that gets utterly destroyed (even though the chariot has my BSB with MR2 on it)... if Warriors had access to a straight-up decent ward save I might also be convinced, but sadly not, the best I can get is Regeneration, which, you guessed it... Spirit of the Forge bypasses completely. As has been stated by others in the thread, it is mostly a failing of the guy who wrote the army book ;)

By the way Devil, no-one in this thread has called your army cheesy! Or even suggested it, for that matter. Why don't you go post it in the army list forum, if it's filth, then you can defend it there. But it's probably not, and your gaming buddies are probably spoilt brats if they keep whining about your army. But we're not, honestly!

Devil
17-04-2009, 03:25
Hmm thanks for the clarificatiion.

Forgive me If I do not just take your word for it. But what page and paragraph does this errata exist on?


Also I agree with you if spirit of the forge is indeed the subject of an errata and they clarified it mean 2d6 hits and not models then the spell is HogWash ( this word seems to find me using it alot 2 in one hour). A difficult of 12 to cast. Assured to destroy any group of knights on the table in one go. It ignores both armour saves and regen also. Thats a whole lot of Bullshizz. No other spell has the potential to be so damaging to targets that by design and cost should be more resilient to such attacks. Meaning...you pay a ton of points for those knights and one spell can wipe them all out.


If you ask me at first glance in the limited time I have been playing this game I have quickly deduced that a flaw in the magic system ( besides the dispel scrolls which alot of us agree are flawed and make the game UNFUN, yes I know alot of you disagree as well) is that it seems to be to easy for any army to get their hands on any lore if they want to. I think it needs to be more categoric by the army type. I think it is ridiculous that you can give a Vampire Lord Forbidden Lore and then turn around and give that Black Hearted Vampire Lord the Lore of Light or Heavens. Its preposterous. I think it needs to be a rare exception that an army can actually go outside its spell list to choose from a different list. Clearly Dark Elves should have Lore of Shadow whilst High Elves use their own list and the Lore of Fire. The only exception to having many lores is the Empire. I believe, and rightly so, that the Empire and the human race in all roleplay games and games similar to this by design have always held that humans as a race have always had as their advantage the ability to be the most versatile. Thus being allowed 3 or 4 lores for the Empire seems totally appropriate to this gamer.


About dispel scrolls. I played my first bigger game which for me at the time was 1500 points against a high elf player. I knew nothing about that army at the time and I got worked hard for the first 4 turns but in the end pulled off an upset. I did do some complaining during the game about him taking dispel scrolls. He took 3 dispel scrolls in a 1500 point game and was packing the Annulian Crystal on a Dragon Mage riding a Sun Dragon and he had the Banner of Sorcery. He had an insane amount of magic and dispel power and put 3 scrolls on top of it. This he did because I destroyed his cousin a weak earlier and he and his cousin got together and came up with what they thought would be the perfect kill VC list, and more specifically kill my particular army list. I am happy to report that the game went to crap for him in the last 2 turns with a little puny skeleton striking down the mighty Dragon Mage atop his Dragon in the bottom of the 6th. It was an epic ending ( i posted about this on my thread about concedeing if any are interested).


It is this kind of player that irritates me. Though I keep my iritation in these days ( i dont bitch about it outwardly when people take scrolls on top of a list that already has a ton of magic defense going for it) I just get even in the fight.


I think the kind of player that stacks up the magic dispel's is very meticulous and probably doesn't exhibit any balls in their play style. Meaning they probably seldom play with a style that goes with taking risks for big rewards. They can't stand to lose a single warrior. I am of the mind set that this is war. You have to send in your men knowing that some or alot or all of them may die. It is your hope that these men who you send to their death can do so in the name of victory. You gotta learn to get messy.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-04-2009, 03:25
Hmm thanks for the clarificatiion.

Forgive me If I do not just take your word for it. But what page and paragraph does this errata exist on?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470856_Warhammer_FAQ_2008-02_Edition.pdf

First page second column:
"Page 113. In the ‘Spirit of the Forge’ spell, the last
sentence will be changed in reprints to the following:
‘The effects of this spell are exactly the same as the
Rule of Burning Iron described above, except the unit
takes 2D6 hits distributed like shooting."
Have fun.


It still stands they are for the weak.

Well every month this boards get a similar (and usually equally long thread) about how "shooting is so cheese", "heavy cavalry ruins the game", "magic is for ******" and the such. And i'm pretty sure people that start those threads keep their opinions to the while also stating that they are not in fact mediocre close minded players.
So i guess nothing new here.

The average VC 2000pts list has about 10PD and casters with decent WS, T, cause fear and access to good AS (for all the "just kill the squishy mages groupies). Their most dangerous spells are easly cast on 1 or 2 dice (IoN, Raise dead and Vanhel's) and can be cast multiple times by the same wizard since they are all necromancy.
So i really don't get how VC players can go ahead and take such a long whine about how broken dispel scrolls are on their 3-4 dispel dice opponent. Not that i'm hoping that any of those players will accept how silly the whole complain is but oh well...

Shimmergloom
17-04-2009, 03:39
Then take away your ItP, fear causing, unbreakable crutch then and tell us how much you don't need dispel scrolls.

As long as you are playing an army that lets you ignore the worst effects of magic and then heal up the damage magic has done to your unit, your arguments are going to be dismissed, because you play VC.

Dranthar
17-04-2009, 04:23
You say I am a hypocrite for boasting that I never have nor will I ever take a scroll because I play " Vampire Counts". That is so ignorant I have trouble even writing it out.
Everyone hates the counts. Everyone says they are not fair. Everyone cries about them yet down at the local bunker it was the lizardmen with a SLaan build that took home the first place prize. This over the top of a VC army in the second round.

Who won the GT this year? Im sorry was that High Elves?

More and more GREAT players prove that VC lists can be defeated. IF you can't defeat one then you are not a great player....Sorry.

Wow, way to miss the point Devil. The power level of VC armies is not at all relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the fact that VC armies are naturally very resistant to enemy magic. Thus by extension, dispel scrolls are not nearly as necessary for them as they are for other armies.


If you have half a brain and some self restraint you can assure with as little as 4 to 5 dispel dice that you stop the game winning spells from going off.

For the most part you're right. 4-5 dispel dice is usually enough to have a decent chance of stopping a high level spell, or neutralising a mid-level spell plus maybe a bound spell. But there are two problems with this;

1. With rare exceptions, 4-5 dispel dice requires around two mages. That's half your hero allowance and a significant investment in points. For players who want to have a non-magic army this isn't normally acceptable, moreso when their mages cost an arm and a leg to buy (eg. Chaos Sorcerers)

2. Most level 4 wizards can cast spells with up to 5 dice. The odds of dispelling something like that with 4-5 dice isn't great so without dispel scrolls you'd probably have to let it go. Some of these high-level spells can be game winning all on their own (infernal gateway, flames of the phoenix vs. hordes, van hels in the right situation etc), so it hardly seems fair that a player is forced to sit by and watch his army get decimated while your opponent just throws handfuls of dice at you. In short, game-winning spells with no possible answer can ruin the game, hence dispel scrolls have a place.


I say again and I can say it without being a hypocrite because I have never taken a scroll. Dispel scrolls are for the weak. Those of you bothered by this statement the most are the ones guilty of using scrolls the most.

One of the best ways to alienate people you're trying to convince of a point is to make broad, insulting generalisations about them. It's exactly like me saying that Daemon armies are overpowered, and everyone who plays them are insecure powergamers who still regularly wet the bed and sleep with a night light on. Regardless of whether I'm right (about the Daemons :rolleyes: ), I'm not going to win over any Daemon players with statements like that.

I don't agree with your assertions, even though my armies (VC and Goblins) only ever have one dispel scroll. I guess that means I'm "weak". Congratulations.


The army I play has nothing to do with it. If anything the fact that I COULD take a crap load of scrolls since all my heroes are virtually wizards and do not speaks for itself.

I think you missed the point. Again. Whether VCs have the opportunity to spam dispel scrolls or not is irrelevant. The fact is that they're allready highly resistant to magic so the need to take dispel scrolls just isn't there.

Devil
17-04-2009, 04:33
By the way to prove a point that you do not need dispel scrolls...down at the local battle bunker their is this guy who is a terror with his Slaan Lizardmen list. He never loses with them.


Their was this dark elf player that played him and didn't take a single dispel scroll nor a single wizard and fought the game to a draw. Imagine that no scrolls. No wizards and still brought the lizardmen player who is pretty formiddable to a draw. That shows that you don't need magic. I have never seen magic win a game alone, what I have seen many a time is melee win a game alone.




"Damnit, now I owe you a beer R Man. I hope you're of age. Incidentally, I wasn't calling anyone names, but I was handing out prizes "


-Staurioksaurus. Clearly your name alone suggests you are a waste of time. Grow up.



I think I pretty much made my point about scrollz. If nothing else you can see that in no time this thread shot up to 13 pages long. It is clear for all to see that it is a HOT topic that alot of us HATE scrolls and want them to either go away entirely or change the mechanics of them. Maybe GW in its infinite wisdom will look in on such a thread as this and gain something from it. We can hope. Because at the end of the day wether or not you agree that scrollz are broke I think most can concede that they are boring. Capital B oring.

EvC
17-04-2009, 04:36
I'll bet that Dark Elf player had the Ring of Hotek though... it's handy when you can get amazing magic defence on unit champions :)

Kerill
17-04-2009, 04:48
Dark elves don't belong in a discussion about scrolls, they have brokenly effective magic defence and several other broken items. Pendant of khaleth makes almost any discussion on killing the character null and void, but DE are only one army, the vast majority of spellcasters are easy to take down with mage hunters if you can get them into combat.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-04-2009, 05:23
It is clear for all to see that it is a HOT topic that alot of us HATE scrolls and want them to either go away entirely or change the mechanics of them.

Actually in this whole thread those against scrolls are a bast minority, maybe 3, 4 people tops, posting the same arguments over and over again and chosing not to respond to those they can not argue.


Maybe GW in its infinite wisdom will look in on such a thread as this and gain something from it. We can hope.

IMO if a GW designer ever decides to implement to the game something he saw at any internet forum, this thread would be one of the worst places to start.

Tunnel Rat
17-04-2009, 05:35
Yikes, heated, this thread is.

Well, I for one like dispel scrolls. Sure people can abuse it but that's like everything else in the game. Lord as a scroll caddy? That seems silly to me but whatever.

I need that ace(or 2) up my sleeve just for that critical moment. I play Skaven and I usually play a buddy of mine that plays High Elves. Its no fun when my units move up only to get obliterated halfway up table. I normally don't complain considering I do play Skaven but with Magic followed by Shooting?! I'll have nothing left when I reach his units. And considering that he usually has double the casting dice than my dispel he's still casting spells left and right. Without dispel scrolls, our games will be lopsided. With the one or two that I do carry in my army our games have been close and fun.

Staurikosaurus
17-04-2009, 06:37
-Staurioksaurus. Clearly your name alone suggests you are a waste of time. Grow up.



How so? Incidentally, you spelled my name wrong.

R Man
17-04-2009, 06:47
By the way to prove a point that you do not need dispel scrolls...down at the local battle bunker their is this guy who is a terror with his Slaan Lizardmen list. He never loses with them.


Their was this dark elf player that played him and didn't take a single dispel scroll nor a single wizard and fought the game to a draw. Imagine that no scrolls. No wizards and still brought the lizardmen player who is pretty formiddable to a draw. That shows that you don't need magic. I have never seen magic win a game alone, what I have seen many a time is melee win a game alone.

This proves nothing. We don't know the details of the battle. Perhaps the LM player was really unlucky, or was trying something new. Perhaps he had no experience against the DE or perhaps the DE were using that ring everyone's talking about.


-Staurioksaurus. Clearly your name alone suggests you are a waste of time. Grow up.

And this is perhaps why few people are jumping to defend you. A more reasonable or constructive argument that involve less insulting people would get you support.


I think I pretty much made my point about scrollz. If nothing else you can see that in no time this thread shot up to 13 pages long. It is clear for all to see that it is a HOT topic that alot of us HATE scrolls and want them to either go away entirely or change the mechanics of them. Maybe GW in its infinite wisdom will look in on such a thread as this and gain something from it. We can hope. Because at the end of the day wether or not you agree that scrollz are broke I think most can concede that they are boring. Capital B oring.

Actually very few people here are against scrolls, and even then many of those that are will still concede that they are nessesary. You have not really made much of an argument at all. You have not really suggested a better alternative or analysed the issue in all its complexity. Instead you are just repeating your mantra "scrolls suck" over and over. If you want people to take you seriously and give your ideas any creedence you need to be reasonable, analytical, fair and understand both sides. Especially on the internet where things are easily misinterperated.

Trath9
17-04-2009, 06:51
How does this ruin WHFB? It's a counter against magic for low magic armies so far as I see.

Caine Mangakahia
17-04-2009, 09:00
Hey, if people want to tote armloads of scrolls then thats fine, but I don't expect them to be the ones complaining about my one dice casting or being able to cast vanhels multiple times just because they cant shut down the most vital part of MY army with a couple of scroll caddy wizards thank you very much.
Scrolls are probably part of the reason we are seeing the uber caster builds coming out in the newest armies. I would imagine that designers saw that scroll caddies were nullifying the magic phase, along with whatever investment being made in wizards and such and (with what might be an overreaction) started putting in powerfu magic builds that can actually DO something in the magic phase.
I still think dispel scrolls failing on a dice roll of a one would be a nice balance, makes it a bit more interesting than somone waving a couple of bits of paper in the air and saying "F* you and your 400+ points worth of wizards!"

Devil
17-04-2009, 11:43
hmm is this an older errata? How can you be sure it is applicable to 7th edition? Bcause I got this clarification and my understanding of how this spell works from a manager at a GW store. Seems odd.


Lets see a guy who wins every game pretty much he has ever used his new LM Slaan list with goes up against a DE player who takes no wizards and no dispel scrolls and suddenly he doesn't win but suffers a draw and it proves nothing? I'm of the opinion that the proof to statements lies in the game itself not in blabber on the forums. As if you saying the words " this proves nothing" proves anything. Where as I show you some amount of evidence that backs up what I have been saying and you say" this proves nothing". If I were you I wouldm't make any plans to join the debate team anytime soon.

. It doesn't get any purer then that. I'm aware that it is just one game but you saying it proves nothing is far to absolute. In fact mathmatically speaking if you were to take no mages and put all your points into buying tons and tons of troops statistically speaking you have every advantage to win. People seldom play this way because it is not economically viable and it takes alot of time to paint all those minis.

In the end you can't dispute that scrolls are boring. They eliminate the dice element of the game. They are for the weak.


R Man -

you should really learn to read better, either that or take the time to actually read. I posted from the start my alternative. Make the dispell scroll the counter part to the power stone. The dispel scroll adds +2 dispel dice to any dispel attempt. This way you are not guaranteed to get anything off as double 1's always fails. But it helps. It eliminates the boredom issue and in my minds eye balances things out a bit buy making it still possible that the scroll may not work. Instead of having to pray that you cast with irresistable force. We all know how often irresistable force goes off if you are not teclis. I am buy no means alone. There seems to be quite a few people that agree with me in some way that dispel scrolls are either boring or unbalanced and need a work up. Again the topic has gone on for over 12 pages now. If all I had to say was nonsense and I blabbered on and my only argument was they are for the weak and they suck as you have accused me of....... I highly doubt this thread would still be going on strong and that it would have inspired so many people to get involve in it and give their personal input on how to make the scroll a better item or how to balance it. This is a testimony to the fact that what I have said is both interesting and debateable. Cleary there are many factions that exist within the thread. SOme believing they are fine the way they are. Others that they are boring. Others that they are not fun. Others that they are not balanced. Others that believe a combination of the afor said.
Your being blindly dismissive to the people that have these opinions. I am aware that few have my exact same opinion and I am ok with this. Im comfortable with my beliefs. You tell me that nobody is defending me as If I care.
Do I seem as if I need anyone to defend me? I can do a good job of that on my own. I don't need validation from anyone in order to feel confident that I am right or well informed/educted on the topic. Maybe if your weak and self doubting you might need others to validate you and your arguments... I don't. I don;t need to adhere to the mob mentality. I am confident in what I know.

Also it is pretty childish to attack someone for rebuking someone for name calling. The guy was degrading my topic and turning it south. I asked him kindly at first not to do that, If you go back and read things closer you will see. He immaturely responded with " im not name calling im handing out awards". It has been for the most part an enjoyable mature discussion but when people start name calling like that it drags the thread down and I don't need that kind of immature banther in my thread. If you wanna defend that type of behavior go find a different thread to degrade.

Let me repeat what I have already said about scrolls since you seem to have missed it the first time and ensist that I have never done anything other then say scrolls suck and are for the weak.

1) Because no dice rolling is necessary they are boring
2) Because it is almost an assured thing they are unbalanced, because two can be carried on the lowest level hero they are imbalanced
3) People who abuse the scrolls the most usually have alot of dispel dice to begin with since it requires a mage to carry a scroll
4) Make the scroll like a power stone but the opposite. Adding 2 dispel dice to the phase when you choose to use it.

Since you missed that the first time around let me put it under your nose this time. It is fairly obvious you came along to this discussion towards its end and skipped over most replies to put your two cents in.



@Staurikosaurus Sorry for mispelling your name but Its to long for me to analyze and remember how to spell it exactly. I guess if you actually start to contribute to the thread in a constructive way I can work on commiting your name to memory. Let us try to keep the conversation civil and topical and leave the immature mud slinging out ok?

Lord Zarkov
17-04-2009, 12:01
IMO maxing out on loads of scrolls is silly and bad for the game, but one or two is definitely beneficial. It's like everything good, if you abuse it then it becomes awful.

One or two scrolls to give an army a little defence early in the game or in those key moments gives new ways to be tactical and stops magic dominating too much, but if someone's spends many hundreds of points on their mages they're still going to get an appropiate amount through on the other 4-5 turns of the game.

When people start maxing out on scrolls is when it starts to get dull though. I played a skaven army the other day with 7 dispel dice and 5 scrolls, the result being that my magic phase was mostly nulified, the only reason I got spells of at all being that I was playing VC with 10-11PD and he let through my cheap spells. If I was playing another one of my armies (say my 8PD Chaos Dwarfs) I would have pretty much never got a spell off, wasted most of my points in magic, and have been rightly annoyed.

Edit
@ Devil: The FAQ is the current GW Eratta & FAQ and is on their website so is most definitely applicable for 7th Ed. As stated the Eratta will also be incorporated into new printings of the BRB.
Besides, Spirit of the Forge didn't exist in 6th ;)

philbrad2
17-04-2009, 13:07
Everyone take a chill pill and step away from the keyboard. I've already chastised one member for their posts here and any further reports of issues on this thread I'll deal with the individuals and lock the thread. Play nice people!


@Staurikosaurus Let us try to keep the conversation civil and topical and leave the immature mud slinging out ok?

Very wise, I suggest you also take your own advice!

PhilB
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Ixquic
17-04-2009, 13:43
Then take away your ItP, fear causing, unbreakable crutch then and tell us how much you don't need dispel scrolls.

As long as you are playing an army that lets you ignore the worst effects of magic and then heal up the damage magic has done to your unit, your arguments are going to be dismissed, because you play VC.

Yes, yes I don't need scrolls when cleansing flare goes off and wounds all my troops on 2s, a high elf throws 4 dice at drain magic so I can't raise models or a Slicing Shards causes my unit with leader ship 3 to keep taking hits until I pass a leadership test.

Edit: chill pill taken

theunwantedbeing
17-04-2009, 13:46
Let me repeat what I have already said about scrolls since you seem to have missed it the first time and ensist that I have never done anything other then say scrolls suck and are for the weak.

1) Because no dice rolling is necessary they are boring
2) Because it is almost an assured thing they are unbalanced, because two can be carried on the lowest level hero they are imbalanced
3) People who abuse the scrolls the most usually have alot of dispel dice to begin with since it requires a mage to carry a scroll
4) Make the scroll like a power stone but the opposite. Adding 2 dispel dice to the phase when you choose to use it.

Right,
1. Reasonable assumption, although you get the whole "static combat res is boring" argument as well, as that's also a given. Along with various arguments against VC troops(and daemons to be fair) as they dont break or panic, as a result that'll get similar flak.
2. Two on the same fairly cheap guy is rarely an issue, as it's merely 2 spells stopped in the game for sure, only armies who can really only throw 3-4 big spells with luck are the ones who struggle against a single caddy.
3. Indeed, this results in the low defence armies struggling vs any magic, with the higher magic defence armies not struggling untill they hit a really extreme magic army.
4. This is where things go a bit awry here, an additional 2 dice is almost meaningless in low dispel armies with 1 caddy..in the higher dispel armies you end out with a similar result of dispel ability. The big issue however is that any army capable of throwing several high level spells at you is going to be more capable of crippling the enemy. As a result, any army with access to higher level spells is going to be encouraged to go magically heavy as they will get more out of the phase from changing scrolls to merely adding 2 dispel dice.

It doesnt help that your army is VC.
Plenty of assured things for you...no panic, no psychology, no break tests.
You can generally guarantee certain low level spells to go off as well simply due to the nature of necromantic magic combined with a heap of bound spells you can take (corpse carts mainly).
So arguing that a scroll, which is an assured thing is unfair will generally fall on deaf ears as they'll be too busy saying "hey wait a second, what about all the other assured things you get! We dont have those with our army!"

I see scrolls as a nessecary "evil".
The low magic armies need a caddy to at least help level the field against a magically superior army for at least a single turn at the moment.
The problem is when an army with lots of magical defence adds a few scrolls as well, they start shutting down the other guy for a notable portion of the entire game.
Hence why own comments have merely been
"excercise restraint"
and
"make scrolls need to use a dispel dice(or 2) to work".

PARTYCHICORITA
17-04-2009, 14:24
I think the kind of player that stacks up the magic dispel's is very meticulous and probably doesn't exhibit any balls in their play style. Meaning they probably seldom play with a style that goes with taking risks for big rewards. They can't stand to lose a single warrior. I am of the mind set that this is war. You have to send in your men knowing that some or alot or all of them may die. It is your hope that these men who you send to their death can do so in the name of victory. You gotta learn to get messy.

There is two points here you must take for consideration:
-People who load on magic defense are making a gamble. If they come across a dwarve player or a foe that's going very low on magic then all those points spent on magic defense are wasted, he took a risk making the list and lost.
-We can't hope for all people to like the game the same way we do, some just hate losing models or w/e to magic, shooting, something else but that's there thing. It may seem as childish or inmature but you really can't do anything to stop it, they'll still make lists trying to prevent losing units to magic.


hmm is this an older errata? How can you be sure it is applicable to 7th edition? Bcause I got this clarification and my understanding of how this spell works from a manager at a GW store. Seems odd.


It's a 2008 errata, it says so on the tittle. And as someone already pointed out, Spirit of the forge is a 7th edition spell.
Keep in ming GW store employee's are not god and don't know everything; i've seen them o heard about them making mistakes many times.



Lets see a guy who wins every game pretty much he has ever used his new LM Slaan list with goes up against a DE player who takes no wizards and no dispel scrolls and suddenly he doesn't win but suffers a draw and it proves nothing?
The problem with this anecdote is that it's just that, an anecdote. That and the fact DE have the dreaded ring of Hotek (among other things) that can easly shut down a magic phase with no need for scrolls. Not all armies have similar items, speacially the older books like brets, WE, OK or TK.
Since it's a single anecdote it also lacks a lot credibility since it makes things look more like a luck factor than anything else. I once saw a unit of regular goblins (not knight goblins) bounce of an run down a unit of chaos knights. Does that mean goblins are good counters for chaos knights? No, it just means one of the players had really bad luck while the other one was really lucky.




In the end you can't dispute that scrolls are boring. They eliminate the dice element of the game. They are for the weak.


Ok, i see your point. But again, on the other hand you can't asure most WH players are here for the dice element of the game. For me for example is about strategy and working your opponent, about using tactics to minimize the dice rolling factor. A scroll can help me achieve that in the same way an irresistable force spell (or poor scroll management) can ruin it, but i don't go saying IF is broken and i just accept it when it happens.
Point here beeing we all like different things and not all of us are here for the element of random.



Make the dispell scroll the counter part to the power stone. The dispel scroll adds +2 dispel dice to any dispel attempt.
This is not that easy of a solution as it seems because armies with only one caddy would still be dramatically overrun by heavier magic lists. Then those armies would en up taking more casters to have more dispel dice, then the game would be completely magic driven (and it already is pretty magic oriented). The idea is for always allow people to take what they won't w/o fear of what they are gonna face.




If all I had to say was nonsense and I blabbered on and my only argument was they are for the weak and they suck as you have accused me of....... I highly doubt this thread would still be going on strong and that it would have inspired so many people to get involve in it and give their personal input on how to make the scroll a better item or how to balance it.
The issue here is that allthough you have given some valid arguments, most of your posts are oriented to either; talk about how people who take scrolls are lame or talk about how you will never take scrolls even if you stop playing VC.
Most of the people getting involve on the thread then were doing so because either; they dislike the idea of beeing call weak for taking scrolls (i don't, i take 1 scroll for every 1Kpts on my list so i guess im pretty weak) or for hearing a VC player talk about how broken scrolls are (because you may not see it but it's pretty ironic)



Do I seem as if I need anyone to defend me? I can do a good job of that on my own. I don't need validation from anyone in order to feel confident that I am right or well informed/educted on the topic. Maybe if your weak and self doubting you might need others to validate you and your arguments... I don't. I don;t need to adhere to the mob mentality. I am confident in what I know.

There you go again. The idea of starting a thread should be stating your point and ridiculizing anyone who disagrees with you, it should be trying to convince people you are right through good arguments. It has nothing to do with beeing weak or not, that was R man's point right there.




1) Because no dice rolling is necessary they are boring
2) Because it is almost an assured thing they are unbalanced, because two can be carried on the lowest level hero they are imbalanced
3) People who abuse the scrolls the most usually have alot of dispel dice to begin with since it requires a mage to carry a scroll
4) Make the scroll like a power stone but the opposite. Adding 2 dispel dice to the phase when you choose to use it.

1) When i field a lot of magic or a list that requieres magic to win (i've recently started playing with my friends TK) scrolls can be frustrating, but there is also an strategy element in forcing your opponent to use up those scrolls at your will. I actually enjoy that.
2) What would be your suggestion here? That scrolls were level 2+ mage items only? Again, not all players wanna go magic heavy, they shouldn't be force to do so just so they can take some magic defense.
3) That is just not true and it has beeing pointed out many time on this thread. You are not reading this more carefully than the rest of the posters that are also missing points on both sides.
4) This again would make a lot of harm to list that only have 3-4 dispel dice which is most not magic oriented lists out there. A dispel scroll buys time, 2 extra one use only dispel dice on a pull that only has 3 dice and that can roll a double 1 buys randomness. I get it, you like that, but it's not true for every person and allthough we all like it to some degree (or we wouldn't play the game) for this particular issue i feel it should stay as it is for those of us who don't wanna go heavy on dispel dice to begin with.

If i thought scrolls were broken (which i don't) the "they work on a 2+" solution would seem as the most balance to me.

Devil
17-04-2009, 15:14
What is more exciting and a display of better tactics? Trying to get rid of an opponents dispel scrolls or the turn in the game in which his scrolls are finally gone and he has to use his dispel dice wisely?

You know the clear choice. ANd since I know you know the right answer I conclude with this thought by saying....

Every magic phase should be that way. It adds so much more tactical elements to the game.

People who scroll caddy are annoying. They encourage people to spam uber magic lists rather then discourage it. Because most people think they need more magic to get past all the scrolls they are taking. You cannot have a balanced list in the magical department against someone who spams scrolls. It is either all or none. Sorry I got a friend in my group plays empire and he is new to the game and a little bit of a slower learner and he makes up a list that has a warrior priest in it and he plays our high elf player. Well our high elf player has 5 dispel dice on top of 3 scrolls. Bravvo that is talent. Now the empire player never gets a single spell off the entire game because he can dispel at his leisure. Now he is forcing the empire player to take along a level 4 battlemage and another level 2 caster just because he want's to actually be able to use his warrior priest when he could give a rats ass about using the mages. Does that seem off to you?. I think that is ******** retarded sorry. Dispel scrolls suck. The game does not need them in anyway. Leastways the way they are written.






You will not convince me that you are not weak if you take scrolls sorry. Hey Its just my opinion. What do you care what I think? Why spend 12 pages trying to convince someone you are a great general even though you use scrolls when its clear that person views that as a sign of weakness? Doesn't make sense to me.


WHere can I go to visit the website for this errata? I went to the web adress you have linked but I saw nothing there I would label official. It was a page done up nice but it had no games work shop signature on it. So much stuff can circulate online that you need to be careful what you take as written law. And in reality they may have faqd that but nothing is changed until they release a new book with it in it. My book is brand new and it doesn't have that in it yet. This is why I question your source.


Again with the VC stuff. All armies are equal. All armies are official and worthy of a tournament play. You are pointing out the strengths of my army. Yah I can;t be broken blah blah blah. I also have virtually no ranged to speak of. I haven't hardly any troops worth a squat. They all suck except for grave guard. I shouldn't even have to defend my army. A seasoned smarter player would know better then to question scrolls because of my army choice. You know what? This is a waste of my time. Its like arguing with 4 year olds. You can say that safely because your VC..>WAAAAH!! WAAAAAH! Get over it. Don't chastise me for my army choice. People with half a brain know its the man behind the army and the list and not the army itself. I ain't even gonna dignify that BS with any more response to VC.




I made a simple statement. I think dispel scrolls suck. I think if you cannot figure out a way to win games without relying on dispel scrolls then you are an inferior player. to those of us who can. I see scrolls as an uneccessary addition to the game. An item that exists soley for the sake of itself( compareable to the lucky charm in mordhiem). Every army out their can have a ton of magic if they so desire to do so. Thus any army out their can pack the same amount of dispel dice relatively. It's all in the way we choose to play.

Anyone who cries and whines and say's its no fair because you play daemons or you play High Elves or you play vampire counts and then tries to discredit people who play these armies is an ignorant and doesn't understand the game. People like this say things like this to get some sort of validation from the rest of us that it wasn't their fault that they lost to that VC army. Its those stupid GW people who cant write a fair army list these days. I aint going to validate that BS sorry.



I have made the points I wanted to make. To stay at this thread any longer is to degrade myself down to a flame war and I will not participate. Accept the fact that there are those of us out there that think scrolls are for the weak. Think that they are often abused and detract from the fun of the game. Will I play someone with dispel scrolls? Yes, and I will kick there butt. Will I field them in my army ever? Nope. You cannot make me. Nor can you make me believe your really a good tactician when you cannot figure out a way to use your own strategy in the magic phase to negate the worst of your opponents spells without depending on scrolls. Step outside the scroll fraidy cats. Life goes on. And for those of you that actually can play this game you will find you can still win a game without.

bob_the_small
17-04-2009, 15:32
How on earth are scrolls a sign of weakness? Dispelling spells comes from the luck of the dice, not how good or bad a general you are....

Sirroelivan
17-04-2009, 15:38
Thus any army out their can pack the same amount of dispel dice relatively.

Well, not every army has the same dispel capability, since items generating dispel dices, active magic negation and other stuff also plays it's part.

WarlockOMork
17-04-2009, 15:51
What is more exciting and a display of better tactics? Trying to get rid of an opponents dispel scrolls or the turn in the game in which his scrolls are finally gone and he has to use his dispel dice wisely?


im gonna go with its more tactical trying get them to use their scroll.

Then having them trying to dispell something with 3 dice. like he can dispell any and all key spells with that ammount. :p (not really exciting that)

Edit: (well not exciting for them, it is for me, Yay magical massacre. seems some armies NEED those scrolls with em)
oh ps: a great general makes the best choices, if a scroll is (in said army) the best choice, then your making a good start at beeing a great general.
And lastly not all armies are equal. its just a simple fact and i think that 90% of anyone here would agree.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-04-2009, 16:07
I agree with WarlockOMork, it's more fun for me to draw the scrolls out since i do not take amusement in simple overwhelmming my opponent with magic.
It's silly to asume people go magic heavy because people go scroll heavy. People go magic heavy because they like to smash their opponents with magic just the same way people go gunline because the like to destroy their opponents with shooting.
The empire noob example is also so thin it's funny; it's a level4 bound spell, it can be dispel with the basic dispel dice. Go start a thread about how the basic dispel pool is so broken.


You will not convince me that you are not weak if you take scrolls sorry. Hey Its just my opinion. What do you care what I think?

I don't care, i am definetly not trying to convince you of my skills at this game; that's not the subject and it has never been. I also do not question your general skill at the game either, your reading skills... well that's a whole new subject.
All armies are not equal, that's why some books are better than others. You can't see it and that's probably one of the many reasons you are not able to see the scroll issue from a different perspective or even understand what other people say. It's sad but it ain't my problem.
You have fail to see what the point was went talking about the VC but i'm not gonna explain it to you any longer, a lot of people have done so already.

as for the FAQ go to:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2

And go to the 2008 FAQ, now you can stop beeing so paranoid. You are welcome.

snyggejygge
17-04-2009, 21:33
The scroll isn't the problem, it's the magic system, back in the days of "hero-hammer" (4:th & 5:th edition), I never ever needed to use a scroll, in fact I didn't even need to bring a wizard to defend at least decently against magic, there were items to help with that, & a system which allowed you to get dispel cards each round despite not having a wizard (but wizard helped of course).
In 6:th edition I never brought a scroll in friendly games & only ever used max a single scroll in my tournament armies, this then changed in 7:th edition to sometimes bring a single scroll in friendly games & always bringing 2 scrolls in my tournament armies, I only regret bringing those 2 scrolls once, vs another combat based army very similar to mine, if magic isn't too good, then why do my 2 scrolls always come in handy?

As for people claiming that we should get scrolls vs combat & shooting, well you can avoid those things in ways you can't avoid magic, LOS is always needed for both of those things to even occur, the same isn't true with magic, not to mention that it fulfills more things in the game than just damage output.

@devil: Some people can't get dispeldice as easily as other armies, I agree that scrolls are boring in a way, but if one guy has 15 PD & the other guy has 3 or 4 DD, the outcome is pretty clear, it wouldn't matter how good he was with using those 4 dice, so he brings a few scrolls & you call it signs of weakness?? He might think the exact same thing about your army, YOU HAVE to bring magic to the game to win, isn't that a sign of weakness that you cannot win without it? Why not leave magic at home for a game, then those scrolls would be wasted points & all of a sudden you face an army that is about 150 pts smaller than yours.

WarlockOMork
18-04-2009, 00:25
lol. gimme a moment to pick myself of the floor.
cant stop laughing.. seriously xD.

Edit: aah now i've finaly stopped, i really have to agree with partychic.
This part in particular.


I also do not question your general skill at the game either, your reading skills... well that's a whole new subject.


Another few edits:
ill explain it again in a more simplistic way
(,assume a caddy with 2 scrolls is all your magic defence(, we arent all vampires who get more dice for just showing up :))).

yes i think its more tactical to try and get him to use his two dispell scrolls before i can cast per example gateway.
then him desperately trying to dispell it each phase with a grand total of 3 dice. (i mean come on fat chance of that happening).

or using them on a filler spell, flickering fire, etc, the only spells ill cast he'll actualy have a decent chance of dispelling (as you generaly need one more dice to dispell then the spell was cast with).
and i personaly dont give a damn about that(whoopie, a single filler spell less) thats all the tactics he's gonna have access to.

and when that last scroll is gone the magic phase really becomes boring (well for him :p), because he's not gonna stand a chance in hell with those 3 dice.

will he use his scroll now? will he save it for something else, could i get him to use it on this one? hope he doesnt scroll this one.

ah the excitement :D (especialy when compared to the lack off, with the dice)