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View Full Version : So who thought giving a Deepstriking army a S4 Assualt heavy bolter was a good idea?



Orcboy_Phil
10-04-2009, 13:32
I'm just wondering who in there right mind thought giving a deepstriking army a Str4 Assualt3 Ap4 weapon on a 17pt troop was a good idea? Did they even think about game balance and how Nids, Tau, Orks, Eldar and IG could actually cope with a unit or even an army that they cannot shoot or assualt and unless terrain is placed favourable for them means the loss of a good portion of there army before they can even react? I very much doubt it. Flames of Tzeentch needs to be made an ap- weapon.
Sorry I lost a third of my army in a 1500pt game to 3 of these units yesterday and I'm still bloody annoyed.

Mannimarco
10-04-2009, 13:36
are you saying daemons are broken? who knew lol but seriously the biggest drawback to the daemons is you have to be pretty lucky with them, this just sounds like really good luck

Reaver83
10-04-2009, 13:41
As someone who does have 9 flamers, I'll be honest they're effective at times but it's so hard to get it to be perfect.

I've often found that whilst they may do a decent amount of damage on the first drop, there's always the problem that a bad scatter will lead them to landing on some unit and having a deep strike roll. Add on to that they're only one wound and T4, once they've droppd and fired, they'll be an easy target!

Spider-pope
10-04-2009, 13:43
A daemon player with that set up has only a 50/50 chance of it actually turning up on the first turn like he wants it to. As a daemon player myself, with horrendous luck, i can tell you that it doesnt always work out for the best when it comes to my army actually turning up when i need it.

Orcboy_Phil
10-04-2009, 13:52
However a game shouldn't rest on a single 2/3 dice roll. Not on the first turn anyway. Last turn is fine and dramatic thought.

freddieyu
10-04-2009, 14:02
Try to deploy in cover. Or have a sacrificial squad spread out to act as a cover screen. I play versus someone who uses 3 squads of horrors, so I am used to these critters. Or have a few vehicles act as a screen. In other words, anticipate in advance where they will appear, and deploy accordingly.

Orcboy_Phil
10-04-2009, 14:06
I actually did deploy a sacrifical screen. It still didn't stop the flamers who wiped out most of that before the horrors decimated my warriors.

freddieyu
10-04-2009, 14:12
Ah well it wasn't your day then. Maybe in a rematch he won't be as lucky! Daemon armies either win big or lose big..rarely do you have a result in between.

Hellebore
10-04-2009, 14:23
Ah well it wasn't your day then. Maybe in a rematch he won't be as lucky! Daemon armies either win big or lose big..rarely do you have a result in between.

That's not exactly what one would call an endorsement of their army list quality though is it...:p

Hellebore

Reinnon
10-04-2009, 14:46
Horrors are very good against armies that rely on a 4+ armour save.

But, its attached to a horror, a unit that requires more luck then skill to use effectively. Yes its brutal, yes a tzeentch shooting army will decimate an eldar/tau/nids (not nidzilla though, 90 shots into a carnifex - one wound.. woo) footslogging army. But at the same time a bad scatter can spell the death of a horror unit.

Not to mention that horrors are pretty meh against marines, and die to pretty much anything in assault. Like all elements of the daemon book, if you get good dice rolls the army is brutal.

Best way to counter it: deploy in cover in a well spread out firebase - makes flamer drops dangerous (nothing on the mishap table is good for a flamer) and horrors just bounce off cover saves.

Horrors are good, but by no means overpowered. Orks utterly decimate daemons 90% of the time anyway.

Frontier
10-04-2009, 16:16
Last I checked, you couldn't fire the heavy bolter after getting out of a Drop Pod. That counted as moving. Or I am cheating myself...

Lord Humongous
10-04-2009, 16:23
Don't tau have some sort of transport vehicle they can deploy their 4+ save troops inside?

Darnok
10-04-2009, 16:28
Last I checked, you couldn't fire the heavy bolter after getting out of a Drop Pod. That counted as moving. Or I am cheating myself...

Last time I checked, the OP was talking about Daemons. Reading helps. ;)

Zark the Damned
10-04-2009, 16:39
I actually did deploy a sacrifical screen. It still didn't stop the flamers who wiped out most of that before the horrors decimated my warriors.

The Horrors decimated your warriors? What did you do with the other 9/10 of them? Losing 1/10 of your force shouldn't put that big a dent in your offensive capabilities, just counter attack.

susu.exp
10-04-2009, 16:42
Add on to that they're only one wound and T4, once they've droppd and fired, they'll be an easy target!

Edit: I just realized you were talking about the flamers here. In which case of course the rest of the post still holds to a great degree, the slight improvement in staying power more than made up by the smaller unit size and greater point cost.

They are T3. And yea, the combo of the rather short range (Cavalery can charge them next turn, Jump troops can reach them in 1 turn, Units in open topped vehicles can reach them in one turn - and anything they can fire on can get into RF range in the next turn), low T (even when the 4+ save is invulnerable) and sub par assault (1 WS2 S3 attack and etra wounds for losing CC?) in combination with a higher cost than a marine makes them not overpowered.

While they can hit hard, they are pretty much a one shot weapon, unless you allow spaces for them to DS where they can only be targeted by one unit and they manage to take that unit out. Tau need a single FW squad in a fish and they are pretty much gone (Hit on 4+, Wound on 2+, 4+Sv - thatīs about 6 unsaved wounds in a single turn), heck you can charge them with FWs and come out ahead (cost far less points, get the extra attack for the charge, though they do strike last even a full unit of Horrors wonīt do a lot of damage: 12 FWs charging Horrors will lead to 1 or 2 dead FWs, vs. 3 to 3 dead horrors including the additional wounds for losing. - and thatīs without the Shas'Ui upgrade). IG can simply get into RF range and they drop like flies (or use their own HBs). An AF squad, or a pie plate and they are done. Eldar donīt have a single unit that canīt kill them (thereīs an opponent where you can use fleer on your guardians!). Orks should have a trukk full of boys somewhere. If you donīt have some unit able to charge 18" with Orks you are doing something wrong (if you are desperate you can Waargh!). Even grots will beat them in CC. Not to mention that Shootas will do the job as well. Nids: Charge. You will kill the Horrors with a Spinegaunt unit. For the same point cost you get 7A, strike first, hit on 3+ wound on 4+, 4+save. Not to mention what Hormies or Stealers can do.

Horrors are one of the worst assault units in the game and for their points cost very fragile when being shot at. The one turn of shooting they usually get can devastate non-MEQs. Which isnīt so bad for non-MEQs which are hordish. A full unit of Horrors is over 200 points. It will kill a mean 9 Ork boys. And then be ripped apart. Against Tau and Eldar they can do better, but these armies can use cover more eaily than the Hordes can. Nids will be hurt the strongest, if they use Warriors. Even then, you should expect some damage from a unit that will probably only last for a single turn and takes up a singificant portion of an army.

Frontier
10-04-2009, 17:01
Last time I checked, the OP was talking about Daemons. Reading helps. ;)


OOPS! I fail at reading today, folks! :)

Nym
10-04-2009, 17:03
Sorry to say that, but Pink Horrors are far from broken (from an IG and Ork point of view at least).

I get nearly 3 Orks / Horror, and unfortunately, a single horror can't kill 3 Orks the turn it deepstrikes. In fact, it will kill 1 Ork on average (I took the worst statistical scenario here). Once it's done, I'm affraid the poor Horrors will be sent back to Tzeentch very quickly (1 turn of CC).

With IG it's even worse, because all those models nicely bunched up are pie-plate magnets.