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View Full Version : Tweaking / changing existing units



Mozzamanx
10-04-2009, 17:40
Ello chums,

I was reading a particular thread on here regarding Thousand Sons, and I realised just how incredibly specialised they are. Against the majority of non-MeQ troops, they are just 25pt Tacticals with an odd Sergeant.

To me, having such a specialised unit just seems pointless, because they can be so utterly gimped depending on your opponent.

And thus this thread was born, where players can tweak, revamp or completely rebuild units that stand out as odd.


For me, I would get rid of that 4+ Invulnerable save and replace it with a second wound, as it was in the last codex. In addition, I would change Inferno Bolts so that they function as a Bolter with Blast, using the small template.
In this way, they become useful versus any infantry, and will be guaranteed at least some usefulness against all opponents.

In a similar way, Possessed need some help. They need to be random by their very nature, but that randomness means they are unwanted and less useful than cheaper, reliable options.
With that in mind, I would make it so they have 2 powers. The first is optional and paid for, from a list, containing such gems as Flight or Furious Charge. After paying for that, you get a roll on the table as it is now. If you get a duplicate ability then it is wasted, offering some risk to the equation.


Now its your turn! Absolutely any unit, from any army, as long as you justify the changes.

Mojaco
10-04-2009, 18:53
Same two units.

Thousand Sons; 3+ save that is invunerable. Makes it better then cover, and some guns that can ignore invunerable saves just found a new target. The rest in fine as it is, because even non-MEQ and horde armies have stuff running around in 3+ or 4+ saves, so they nearly always have a target. Besides, blast for their bolters would takes ages to work out.

Possessed; roll 2 dice on the table and pick the one you prefer. Roll before deployment.

Spawn; gains FNP

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 19:03
Infiltrate and cavalry movement on chaord lords.

Why? Chaos lords aren't nearly fast enough or killy enough compared to a DP - how can a 10k year vet be that crap? Therefore I think they should have those abilities, be 10 points cheaper as base, have an extra attack and get a retinue (namely chosen) who can also purchase cavalry movement for 2 points a model.

Mojaco
10-04-2009, 19:07
2 pts for fleet and 12" charge? Talk about wishlisting.

Try giving the man a Rhino, that'll speed him up.

Sanctjud
10-04-2009, 19:12
Possessed are fine with me if they changed that one thing:
Rolled before deployment, as Mojaco has said.
I think rolling 2 dice should be paid for, cause eveything is decent when you know what they get and where they will be placed.
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Spawn need a price drop, and at least a 5++.
FNP is a bit much really, it takes str 10 weapons to ignore it the traditional way ( AP1/2, armor ignore aside).

They went from 3+ to nothing, something in between is good.
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Thousand sons...eh...3++ isn't changing 'much'.
The issue was (in 4th ed CSM codex)
Nurgle and Tzeentch hated each other, but were two sides of the same coin... Nurgle was tougher, but Tzeentch had more wounds.

Now the 2 wound thing being brought back is an option, maybe couple it will a 5+ inv...

As Mojaco said, I'd say no to the blast bolts....on everybody.
Maybe 1/3 can shoot like that, but not all.... sitz, imagine resolved 40 blast templates..it would be the one opponent no one wants to play as you'd only get 1 turn.............

My 7 Cents.

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 19:13
2 pts for fleet and 12" charge? Talk about wishlisting.

You must be unfamiliar with the horrendously broken fluffy alpha legion rules in the last codex.

Tennboy
10-04-2009, 19:29
I'd like to see the Possessed be more like they were in DoW I. All models would be treated as having a flamer and Rend, maybe even Furious Charge.

Oh and Orks need a Anti-Tank weapon that has a chance of Penetrating AV14 that isn't so random.

Mojaco
10-04-2009, 21:51
Ork painboys; on a roll of 1 for FNP the model suffers instant death and is removed from play. More orky, less miracle worker.

Ork Nobz; Nob units with bikes count as fast attack. Warboss does not change this into troops. Furthermore, anyone abusing wound allocation in this unit is a very gay fish and is ruining this unit for further codexes.

Sanctjud, I think FNP on a spawn made perfect sense. They don't have armour, so an armour save makes no sense. They have no force field or magic protecting them, so no inv save. But they are big lumps of flesh, so FNP suits them. Besides, who needs to ignore it the traditional way? You yourself named two fine alternatives to ignoring it, so it's not like people have no way of stoping FNP spawns. It'll just be a little harder.

And 3++ is not a big change, no, but then again I don't think they need a big change. We disagree on that in another thread already don't we? :)

BobTheZombie
10-04-2009, 22:10
Gretchin with an option to take armour. Because I for one would love to use the oxymoronic "'Ard Gretchin". 6+ save is hardly game-breaking, either.

solkan
10-04-2009, 22:23
What spawn need to be marginally useful are assault grenades, or some other rule allowing them to ignore the initiative penalty from the difficult terrain test. An actual armour or invulnerable save on top of that would just be icing.

If Dark Eldar warriors had pistols, and Wytches had free assault, defensive grenades and crack grenades, that would be nice, too. If they had characters which were useful in the 1000 point range, that would be just over the top.

ichbala
10-04-2009, 22:26
Cheaper boyz, no just kidding


More big guns in one HS slot
thats the biggest waste of HS slots since something.............

squeekenator
10-04-2009, 22:30
Why on earth would you want to make Rubric Marines work like that? Should Haywire Grenades be changed to S5 AP - ranged attacks because they don't kill everything? It's just silly. Not only does the idea of removing specialist units hurt the game, you're also just replacing anti-MEQ with anti-GEQ. Having S4 AP 5 blasts en mass annihilates horde armies and barely touches Marines. Specialised units are good, it forces you to actually think about what you're going to include in an army. You need to have a good balance of various specialist units so you can take down any foe.


Why? Chaos lords aren't nearly fast enough or killy enough compared to a DP - how can a 10k year vet be that crap?

For a start, you're complaining that a 10,000 year old veteran isn't as powerful as a 10,000 year old veteran who has been transformed into a massive daemon who is made from unnatural energy and has the greatest gifts the Dark Gods can bestow. What's the problem with that? Also, all the 10,000 year old veterans would be Daemon Princes, exceptionally powerful Chaos Lords (Kharn is easily on par with a Prince) or utter failures. Very few standard Chaos Lords will have been fighting ever since the Heresy.

I'm not saying that Chaos Lords don't need a buff, but that's a balance issue, not a fluff one. Personally, I'd just slap on an extra attack, drop daemon weapons down to 30 pts and cut 5-10 points off his price tag. That easily makes him worth it compared to a Daemon Prince. Cavalry movement doesn't really make much sense (the Chaos Gods are, well, chaotic, they aren't going to give massively muscled legs to everyone), and a straight buff is a lot easier to balance. Also, cavalry movement doesn't help when one is in a squad, which is where Chaos Lords should be.

EDIT:

If Dark Eldar warriors had pistols, and Wytches had free assault, defensive grenades and crack grenades, that would be nice, too. If they had characters which were useful in the 1000 point range, that would be just over the top.

:wtf:

Archons completely dominate small games for a cheap cost. Archites are even crazier. Try comparing them to, well, any other character in the game and they'll come out ahead. And Wyches hardly need to be stronger. They already win against basically anything the moment they hit assault.

The_Outsider
10-04-2009, 22:38
For a start,....

I'm pretty sure you missed the sarcasm in my post.



And Wyches hardly need to be stronger. They already win against basically anything the moment they hit assault.

No they don't, but their combat drugs can make up their lackluster raw power to a degree.

Gaunts > wyches
Wyches > harlies.

Occulto
10-04-2009, 23:52
I'm pretty sure you missed the sarcasm in my post.

Anyone who faced that combination should know you weren't being serious. :p

squeekenator
11-04-2009, 23:48
I'm pretty sure you missed the sarcasm in my post.

Excellent. I always thought you were sane. Disregard everything I said there, then. Although I don't think Gaunts will beat Wyches. Even without combat drugs, 10 Wyches charging in get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8 kills. 20 Termagaunts are equal points, so they 12 survivors get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 kill. Without synapse, they flee and get swept, with they fight for a few more turns but lose in the end. If you have decent combat drugs, you slaughter them.

The_Outsider
12-04-2009, 00:04
Although I don't think Gaunts will beat Wyches. Even without combat drugs, 10 Wyches charging in get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 8 kills. 20 Termagaunts are equal points, so they 12 survivors get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 kill. Without synapse, they flee and get swept, with they fight for a few more turns but lose in the end. If you have decent combat drugs, you slaughter them.

Hmm, okay maybe gaunts (hmm, perhaps hormagaunts would be a better unit?) weren't the best example, but the principle behind it remains the same.

Wyches work best at nullifying units that rely on multiple abilities to do damage in CC - units with good base stats and/or enough numbers to show up wyches average killing power when they aren't denying other abilities will beat them.

Hence why assault terminators (of either flavour) pose a real problem for wyches (though incubi butcher them).

Back to the original topic (now with less sarcasm!) I think incubi should get 2A and plasma grenades as base at their current cost. The incubi master stays as he is now, but is cut down to an additional 10 or 12 points.

I would like to see wych drugs changed to be a bit less awkward, namely along the lines of-

1) Move as cavalry (note this does not change their unit type)
2) Furious charge
3) Feel no pain
4) Stubborn or fearless (i'm not sure which, though I prefer stubborn)
5) Preferred enemy
6) Hit and run

While this list is similarto their current drugs, it switches up how wyches go about their business and reducing down the "useless" drugs that we have now (yeah, always strike first is really that useful).