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AllisterCaine
11-04-2009, 05:26
Well, after reading the codex for about 6 hours, I can say Im thoroughly impressed. Quite a few ideas are currently spinning in my head so Im going to share them with you guys, criticisms are appreciated.

Apparently, nothing is stopping you from taking two CCS (Company Command Squad), which means 2 Astropaths, 2 MoOs (Master of Ordinance), and 2 FO (Fleet Officer). This means on the 2nd turn all your reserves comes in on a 2+ while reserves for your enemy will come in on a 6+. Very powerful if your opponent relies heavily on reserves. And of course, 2 5" S9 Ap3 blasts each turn striking in harmony with the humble mortars. Yes, it is indeed possible.

Pask, the Cadian Knight Commander, gives +1 BS to any LR tanks, and if stationary, allows all weapons on said LR to reroll wounds against MCs, or +1 AP against vehicles. Putting him in an Exterminator seems very nice. This means that his tank essentially has 4 TL shots at S8, 9 shots at S6, and 3 shots at S5 (Heavy Stubber) against vehicles. Against MCs, all weapons reroll to wound. Again, very nice assuming he doesnt move (which shouldnt be hard to do...). However, Im trying to find an even better tank for him. In addition, all sponson options are available to all LR tanks. Camo cloaks grant the Stealth Universal Rule to Tanks. Meaning stationary tanks in cover essentially have a 3+ save. 2+ in fortifications. Awesomeness X2.

Extra armor is insanely overpriced for some reason I have yet to conceive. However, Im definitely not going to be complaining about it. Just throwing it out there...

Al'Rahem's entire platoon must outflank. Neat. Oh thats right, his platoon can have like 100 soldiers, about half of which can be in Chimeras. Now we're getting somewhere.

All vehicles in the entire Codex with the exception of the Manticore and Deathstrike can be taken as squadrons. Very useful if used correctly. For example, a pair of Hydras at a trivial points cost to deal (with extreme efficiency by the way) with any Nob biker units or pesky lightly armored transports or vehicle squadrons.

10 man unit of a PBS (Psyker Battle Squad) can ride safely in a Chimera while unleashing a 36", S9 ApD6 (50% chance to penetrate MEQ armor) 5" blast. And yes, it counts as 1 model firing. Or heck, park that Chimera in a fortification and give it a 2+ cover save. That's even better.

6 man demo teams with 3 demo charges can fling them from a Chimera. Excellent. Also available- the Flamera with 3 flamers that fire from any point of the Chimera, including the tracks, with an added Heavy Flamer (free upgrade by the way) and a Multi-Laser to spice things up. Blow it up, and the 3 pyromaniacs are still going to be alive, something that even the good old Hellhound can't do.

50 man unit of guard infantry. 5 special weapons. 5 Sergeants. 5 Commissars with Power Fists. 1 Priest. 1 Kill point. They benefit from the same order, Stubborn Ld9, reroll to hit in CC. Give them "For the Honor of Cadia!" and you have 100+ S4 reroll to hit attacks on the charge + an additional 15 S7 Power weapon attacks that also reroll to hit. Take that Ork players. Unfortunately, this cannot be done for Conscripts. Oh well, this one is much better anyways. Of course, feel free to go easy on the Commissars or to adjust the unit size, because if you take 5 in a 50 man unit, it'll cost about 500pts.

Im sure you guys can think up more of this stuff, so pile it on!

Zombie Savant
11-04-2009, 07:21
Firstly, I'd like to say that it's very nice to see something positive posted for a change, and on those grounds alone, Kudos!

Having said that, I agree in large part with your impressed disposition! At the very least, nothing has suffered (perhaps Ogryns, but I feel they're much better for cost and purpose now then they were, or Stormtroopers, but they can be fielded in their current form for the same price as Carapaced Veterans, with more options), while we've gotten a lot of free new goodness.

I don't see Adviser spam ever becoming prevalent, regardless of their potential stacking. That's a very squishy squad of 30+ point models. Something that effective will draw much fire, while one or two advisers sprinkled willy-nilly won't be the possessors of too much ire. However, the option to take such a combination is definitely cool, and I'd also like to add that I agree that mortars will work as a spotting shot for the MoO.

On Pask: I am dubious of his necessity if not his faculties. I don't see the point in most cases, as he comes at a pretty penny and I'd rather have the extra sponsons or infantry, but again, I think he could be useful (primarily in the exterminator role you pointed out).

At my local hobby shop, huge vehicle-protecting-cover is sparse, so I won't be worried about camo-netting, and I never spent the 5 points for extra-armor anyway, so no complaints here (I still think that naked russes are the most bang for your buck. For +5 points we get +1 side armor)!

Al Rahem has potential, specifically with mechanized platoons. Six potential chimeras whizzing in from the board edge is suitably terrifying for any enemy backfield, especially considering the synergy this has with orders! (Twin-Linked melta guns verus rear armour? Yes Please!) I don't plan to incorporate him until I get more chimeras, so we'll see how he fairs!

Options are never a bad thing, as apparent with vehicle squadrons. There if you want them and not if you don't. Good deal all around.

Pskyer Battle Squads (or as I call them: Sanctionite Kill Teams) are probably one of my favorite new additions. Cheap, good, wonderful fluff, and fit right in with my inquisition theme. I *really* look forward to lowering enemy leadership and using the callidus to neural-shred about any unit in the game on a 2+. Wonderful shooting attack to boot.

Don't have much to add about the baseline infantry, as truthfully, I haven't given much heed to their changes yet. Only thing I can say is that priests are independent characters, and as such would make your example worth 2 KP. Still, no complaints!

Some stuff I think is wonderful:

Iron Hand Straken. Close Combat Guard, enough said! This is always my dream, and having a means to that end is wonderful. He's great 'naked', but can still be effective with some pimping as well. Medic, three flamers, and two bodyguards gives you quite a few FNP wounds to take this **** while your Magic Murder Man prances hither and tither with his lovely auras of ferocity and reactivity. I almost always use Arco-Flagellants as they're one of my favorite (Fluffwise) units and furious charge on them will be enough to make me piddle!

Primaris Psyker: Cheap and Effective. Would make a good addition to a Sanctionite Kill Team, or any sort of assault-oriented unit. As a matter of thought, he'd do *very* well in the above command squad, but I'm using my second HQ choice for my Inquisitor Lord as normal.

Veterans: Good way to field all my Storm Trooper models. Still cost the same w/ carapace upgrade as in the old codex (10 a peice) but can now take a third special weapon and a chimera at a piddly 55 points! I can see spam of this variety being deadly deadly!

Penal Legion: Potential? Not really 100% sure how I feel about these yet, but a squad of them in reserves for late game would be very good for objective grabbing. Or make an advanced front of manic slaughter-men with their scout move. A furious charge/counter attack bubble, from a certain company commander, might just make the grade....

I'll leave the tanks and such to others, as it's past my bed time. Good eve, I look forward to checking this thread tomorrow.

TheOneWithNoName
11-04-2009, 08:25
Pskyer Battle Squads and weaken resolve are obscene. Tried a full squad against a Tau opponent. First turn his Shas'O and crisis suits run off the board. Second turn, his Shas'el and crisis suits turn tail and run. -9 to leadership is brutal (to a minimum of 2 granted). A must have for any budding IG power gamer.

laudarkul
11-04-2009, 09:04
Tks for the info's..I can wait to take that codex and to read it...
It's incredible that an ork mob can be assaulted with succes:)...And the Psyker squad seems a perfect fire magnet but also a perfect weapon...And it seems that Chimera's is a must (at least 4 for trying different list).

ichbala
11-04-2009, 09:13
[QUOTE=AllisterCaine;3458948]
50 man unit of guard infantry. 5 special weapons. 5 Sergeants. 5 Commissars with Power Fists.[QUOTE]
Commisars cant take fists anymore

Raxmei
11-04-2009, 09:18
Commisars cant take fists anymoreYes they can.

Just not the ones in infantry squads.

Khornies & milk
11-04-2009, 09:30
I'm certainly using Pask with my Executioner....dang the expense, especially when my group only play 2250 and up.5 AP1 Plasma Cannon shots at BS4 = many dead MEQ's (hopefully).

I have 5 Chimeras waiting for Al'Rahem and 4 Infantry Squads to do his outflanking moves in.

I'm still wondering where to put my 3 Veteran Squads...in Valk's or Chimeras. I'll wait until I have the Codex in my hands to decide.

May 2nd is taking a loooooonnnnng time to get here.

AllisterCaine
11-04-2009, 09:43
"Commisars cant take fists anymore"
"Just not the ones in infantry squads."

All Commissars can, the rumors are wrong.

Thats a hell of an expensive tank there Khornies. 190 + 40 + 50. Better squadron him up so you can inflict those hits unto the poor LRBT right next to him.

And as for being positive, hell yes! I dont see how we can possibly be complaining. Those idiots that do shall be hunted down and tried for stupidity and crimes against mankind (for being stupid). However, having said that, its always good to hear some valid arguments on why they might think that way. That is not complaining. I encourage the people who think the codex sucks to voice their opinions honestly and openly so that they may be debated, no matter how flawed the logic might be.

chinnfrequent
11-04-2009, 09:51
I'm certainly using Pask with my Executioner....dang the expense, especially when my group only play 2250 and up.5 AP1 Plasma Cannon shots at BS4 = many dead MEQ's (hopefully)

This is a mistake I'm seeing a lot. Pask does not give +1 AP to your weapons, he gives you +1 to your armor penetration roll.

Raxmei
11-04-2009, 09:59
"Commisars cant take fists anymore"
"Just not the ones in infantry squads."

All Commissars can, the rumors are wrong. I took a good long look at this. Commissars are listed separately in the platoon command squad and infantry squad with different sets of upgrades. In infantry squads they may upgrade to a plasma pistol or power weapon, while in platoon command squads they can also upgrade to boltguns or power fists.

AllisterCaine
11-04-2009, 10:01
I took a good long look at this. Commissars are listed separately in the platoon command squad and infantry squad with different sets of upgrades. In infantry squads they may upgrade to a plasma pistol or power weapon, while in platoon command squads they can also upgrade to boltguns or power fists.

Are you sure? I guess I could've misread that.

stevester79
11-04-2009, 11:12
I just got a look at the codex yesterday. think i only read it for hallf hour. It's overall better and I like it. I'm just a little salty about the LD and cost of the ogryns but there improved can't complain too much.

If I read it right looks like all Lemun Russes get the sponson upgrades that the current demolisher has available. And the exicutioner is improved from the IA book. man 3 shot plasma cannon with sponson plasma cannons and a hull lascannon, Lumbering behemoth, that is just SICK!:evilgrin: Being able to field 3 LR's and still field some artillery tanks big +

Having all of are seargents now with the LD 8 and wargear options is sweet. And our officers with orders makes gunlines more effective.

one of my big butts isthat when commisars do summary executionthe unit does not auto pass anymore you still have to take another test with the commisars LD. Seems a little coslty for a reroll.

stormtroopers being able to be scouts or reroll deepstrike scatter, infiltrate and cause pinning first turn it shoots, and AP 3! Very worthy of the elite slot they fill now.

And Valkarys.....YAAAY!

Raxmei
11-04-2009, 11:24
one of my big butts isthat when commisars do summary executionthe unit does not auto pass anymore you still have to take another test with the commisars LD. Seems a little coslty for a reroll.If you autopassed in close combat you'd have to worry about no retreat wounds. Stubborn ld9 will most likely pass anyway.


And I am quite certain that commissars in infantry squads are armed with bolt pistols and close combat weapons, which may be upgraded to a plasma pistol or power weapon and nothing else. It's easy to see how people could get confused about this, though. There are two entries for the commissar on two consecutive pages that are almost exactly alike.

Akuma
11-04-2009, 11:37
"If you autopassed in close combat you'd have to worry about no retreat wounds. Stubborn ld9 will most likely pass anyway."

Exactly - after reading the dex I think it is superb - all things have thayir places. I realy love it !

Khornies & milk
11-04-2009, 12:05
This is a mistake I'm seeing a lot. Pask does not give +1 AP to your weapons, he gives you +1 to your armor penetration roll.

oH ok...thanks for the clarification....it's still good.

stevester79
11-04-2009, 12:47
If you autopassed in close combat you'd have to worry about no retreat wounds. Stubborn ld9 will most likely pass anyway.


I think I used the wrong word they don't autopass they auto regroup.You have to fail the morale test first before he does summary execution. This counts for no retreat saves? I thought that only works if you auto pass the LD test like fearless or iron will. anyway i missed the stubborn part, good point. I still like the old way. I'm one of the rare that dosn't think the no retreat wounds are a bad thing. I watched a battle with a gaunt brood in synapse hold up a space marine vet squad for 4 turns. if it wasn't for the fealess rule they would of broke and ran 1st turn. well guess it depends army to amry if it benifits or not.

Oh yeah forgot the hellhound! big improvement! they made it fast and no rolling to hit! make sure you read the wording for how to place the template. If I read it right only the narrow end has to be within 12" so it really has a range of 21"

Raxmei
11-04-2009, 13:23
I think I used the wrong word they don't autopass they auto regroup.You have to fail the morale test first before he does summary execution. This counts for no retreat saves? I thought that only works if you auto pass the LD test like fearless or iron will.Regrouping has nothing to do with summary execution. The way summary execution currently works is that the squad is assumed to have passed the morale test after all, ignoring the result of its roll. This is passing the morale test automatically and triggers no retreat. It's in the current IG FAQ.

Ravenheart
11-04-2009, 14:59
Regarding orders; I'm not sure I completely understand how they work.

If I have, say a platoon of 31 Traitors Guardsmen: I command platoon, 2 squads ā 10 guardsmen and 1 squad of 6 special weapon guardsmen.

All squads are in the order distance of 6" from the platoon commander. Who can profit from orders?

Do all of the squads benefit from the order simultaniously (given they pass the Ld check)?

Does each squad have to roll for Ld separately?

Those with a Vox get a re-roll, but no other benefits?

HerrDusty
11-04-2009, 15:25
As far as I understand it from reading the codex, a platoon officer can give one order a turn, which will only affect one squad a turn (you give one order to one squad, it doesn't blanket everything within 6 inches of the officer), and the one squad takes a leadership test to do the order. If you can give more than one order (for example with a Company officer, who can give 2, or Creed, who can give 4), you can order more squads per turn who take a leadership test each, passing and failing as individual squads.

Bunnahabhain
11-04-2009, 15:38
Psyker Battle squad and a Callidus assassin...

So long as targets Ld is reduced to 4 or below, then her weapon is double the targets 'toughness', so wounding on a 2+, and causing ID. AP1, IIRC ( or some kind of not allowing many/any saves, anyway ) and a template weapon, so no cover saves.

Sounds like it kills nob bikers and such like on 2+.
And it doesn't rely on using otherwise useless units either, they both have multiple roles...

invinciblebug
11-04-2009, 16:43
Regarding orders; I'm not sure I completely understand how they work.

If I have, say a platoon of 31 Traitors Guardsmen: I command platoon, 2 squads ā 10 guardsmen and 1 squad of 6 special weapon guardsmen.

All squads are in the order distance of 6" from the platoon commander. Who can profit from orders?

Do all of the squads benefit from the order simultaniously (given they pass the Ld check)?

Does each squad have to roll for Ld separately?

Those with a Vox get a re-roll, but no other benefits?

The platoon commander can issue one order each turn, he must choose one squad to benefit from the order and it can be any squad in his platoon he can issue orders to units within 12'', then the unit recieving the order must take a leadership test, if they pass the order is successful, if they have a vox they may re roll the leadership test, nothing else.

The company commander can issue two orders per turn each turn to any unit within 12''

Ursarkar creed can issue 4 orders per turn to any unit within 24''.

Each unit can only receive one order per turn unless they roll a double 1 for their leadership test. Orders can be issued from inside chimeras but they can't be received inside chimers.

Akuma
11-04-2009, 17:04
"if they have a vox they may re roll the leadership test, nothing else."

If thay have vox and the squad giving order also has it :)

Imperius
11-04-2009, 18:15
The thing I'm scared of in the new Codex is that masing Guardsmen isn't very powerful anymore. I liked the days when I could jsut march across the board with 200 Guardsmen, with about 2 or 3 survivors.

Lovejoy
11-04-2009, 18:23
The last thing I heard about Sargeants is that they had to have laspistol/CCW or shotgun, but couldn't take a lasgun; can someone who has the codex check on the reality of this please?
Thanks,
Michael

lord marcus
11-04-2009, 18:33
now i'm not tryinmg to flame or troll or spam or whatever, but what happens when a newbie to guard see's the price of the cadians (now that thier split) and see's these tactics, thinking he should get so many IG....

Akuma
11-04-2009, 19:32
The last thing I heard about Sargeants is that they had to have laspistol/CCW or shotgun, but couldn't take a lasgun; can someone who has the codex check on the reality of this please?
Thanks,
Michael

Thay only have laspistol and CCW. No Shotgun option in inf squad ( In veterans yes ) he can take bolt pistol and melta bombs , power weapon and plasma pistol.

Power Fists are veterans only now :)

Lovejoy
11-04-2009, 19:41
Thanks for the info, much appreciated - but, ouch, no more lasguns for sarge! Better get the clippers out then...

invinciblebug
11-04-2009, 19:49
The thing I'm scared of in the new Codex is that masing Guardsmen isn't very powerful anymore. I liked the days when I could jsut march across the board with 200 Guardsmen, with about 2 or 3 survivors.

How do you come to this conclusion? Infantry is better than ever with orders, they are cheaper, you can merge them for less KPs, they have cheaper assault weapons, commissars are more freely available, you get free frags and veteran seargents and Penal legion has been introduced.


now i'm not tryinmg to flame or troll or spam or whatever, but what happens when a newbie to guard see's the price of the cadians (now that thier split) and see's these tactics, thinking he should get so many IG....

1. They ask their parents for even more money
2. ???
3. Massive massive unpainted armies all over the place, oh the horror, the horror...

decker_cky
11-04-2009, 19:53
Can guardsmen use a commissar's leadership for orders?

I think I need to get a commissar or two in my army, then merge platoons for squads of 20 or 30 stubborn guardsmen. In KP missions, the commissars will really add a lot.

AllisterCaine
12-04-2009, 04:26
Can guardsmen use a commissar's leadership for orders?

I think I need to get a commissar or two in my army, then merge platoons for squads of 20 or 30 stubborn guardsmen. In KP missions, the commissars will really add a lot.

You are using the leadership of the squad. And since the Commissar probably has the highest leadership in the squad, yes.

However, it is true that Commissars in regular infantry squads cannot take power fists, but those in Platoon Command Squads can. Silly, but whatever.

What would be the most effective artillery in the new codex? The Colossus isnt really practical- 24" minimum distance is far too long. The Griffon is weak, might as well have regular heavy mortars. The Basilisk is the same as ever, but the Medusa seems really tempting. 36" range, 5" S10 Ap2 regular. Give it the camo and park it in a fortification and it has a 2+ save. The Bastion Buster (or whatever it's called) round makes it 3" blast, S10 Ap1 with a 48" range with an added D6 to armor penetration.

Manticore seems highly effective on paper. But, very expensive for an artillery piece and takes up a whole heavy slot without the option for squadron.

3x Armored Sentinels with Plasma Cannons seems like a valid option. 75pts each, but packs a lot of punch with a armor value of 12.

Regular Sentinels may still be a bit expensive- they're about the same price as they are now though the weapons are cheaper. I can't imagine MTC (Move Through Cover) will do that much to increase their effectiveness.

Apparently, squads can no longer use Officer's leadership. This might actually be quite damaging as most squads are Ld8 at best, 7 at average (Because some squads cant even take a Sergeant). Those Commissars and the merging of squads now seems a lot more necessary.

imweasel
12-04-2009, 08:20
Pskyer Battle Squads and weaken resolve are obscene. Tried a full squad against a Tau opponent. First turn his Shas'O and crisis suits run off the board. Second turn, his Shas'el and crisis suits turn tail and run. -9 to leadership is brutal (to a minimum of 2 granted). A must have for any budding IG power gamer.

This is truly their best strength.

Couple that with barrage or other pinning weapons and only fearless units will be able to resist (unless a 2 is rolled).

Wintermute
12-04-2009, 08:46
I'm moving this thread to 40K General as it has very little to do with tactics.

Wintermute

Maine
12-04-2009, 09:46
Using a mortar as a 'spotting round' for the Artillery Bombardment ability looks to be out and out abuse of the rules; you have two contradictory rules (ordnance barrage template placement, and the "scatter on hit" of the Artillery Bombardment).

There are three ways to play it:

1. They are fired independently and ignore Multiple Barrage.

2. Mortar is fired, and the Artillery Barrage scatters from the Mortar's position using the normal "Hit marker mini-arrow" and the random distance. This would be somewhat silly, as you're now always scattering off a scatter.

3. Mortar is fired, and the Artillery Barrage scatters usingonly the Multiple Barrage rules, thus ignoring it's own special scatter distance rules. This seems the least likely, because now you can completely negate the up to 18" scatter, getting essentially a pretty cheap Basilisk with no minimum Barrage range.

#1 is most likely the intention of the rules; the special scatter rules of the Artillery Barrage are an explicit rule within a codex, which therefore modifies any base rules inherited from the main rulebook. Barrage weapons are rare enough, and the IG codex is the first codex to allow multiple ordnance barrage weapons in a squad (let alone mixed ordnance!).

There is a restriction to this - a Multiple Barrage always begins with the model closest to the target firing first. Though that shouldn't get in the way of those who would abuse the rules in this manner.

There are other interesting abuses you could do with this - using a Basilisk as the 'spotting round' to extend the range of Griffon or Colossus in the same squadron, or using a Griffon as a 'spotting round' to get indirect Basilisk shots under 36". Yes, they should have explicitly clarified in a book, but failure to do so does not make it right to abuse it; "allowed because not explicitly disallowed" is not a valid excuse.

It is very possible that Multiple Barrages can't apply to Ordnance, as the Ordnance Barrage rules explicitly state which of the Barrage rules apply to it, and Multiple Barrage is not one of them. I'm hoping they FAQ it to disallow multiple ordnance barrage of mixed weapon types - I think it's just horrible rules abuse, and will be looked upon the way mixed wargear nob biker units are. They give the Orks a bad name even though it is not a widely utilized ability. I would hate to see my beloved Guard get the same kind of a reputation.

jubilex
12-04-2009, 10:04
All the hellhound variants are fast!

AllisterCaine
12-04-2009, 10:20
I will admit that the developers might not have seen it coming, but it is hardly over-powered or anything. Getting a hit with a scatter is 1/3, or rougly 33.3% chance. If it scatters at all, chances are it wont be hitting anything since you dont even get to minus your BS. With the Ordinance Barrage rule, even if the mortar round lands, unless you roll a hit a second time, chances are the 5" blast will just scatter elsewhere, causing far less wounds.

Latro_
12-04-2009, 10:30
My mate is doing the veteran mechanised special weapon spam army from hell.
It seems like a very nasty choice, esp since you can use the fire points of the now dirt cheap chimera to do 6 drive by bs4 plasmagun shots! eek.

AllisterCaine
12-04-2009, 10:49
My mate is doing the veteran mechanised special weapon spam army from hell.
It seems like a very nasty choice, esp since you can use the fire points of the now dirt cheap chimera to do 6 drive by bs4 plasmagun shots! eek.

Oh yes, chimeras have actually got infinitely more nasty. I believe as an added bonus, all shots are measured from any point on the chimera. So like I said before...2x Heavy flamers (the Vet squad can carry one), 2x Flamers, 1x Multilaser (or another heavy flamer, your choice).

I personally can't imagine anyone using the Devil Dog (melta cannon one). Can someone actually come up with a scenario where they might actually be useful?

Latro_
12-04-2009, 10:55
hmm not sure i'd rely on the drive by too much though. You can still only go 6" for the passendgers to fire right? Same applies to the chimera's weapons.

Only skimmed the codex but hellhound variants have better side armour and are fast are they not? seems a much better pts investment for flaming.

I'm stick to melta and plasma on the vets, esp since you are paying the pts for that bs of 4

Maine
12-04-2009, 10:55
I will admit that the developers might not have seen it coming, but it is hardly over-powered or anything. Getting a hit with a scatter is 1/3, or rougly 33.3% chance. If it scatters at all, chances are it wont be hitting anything since you dont even get to minus your BS. With the Ordinance Barrage rule, even if the mortar round lands, unless you roll a hit a second time, chances are the 5" blast will just scatter elsewhere, causing far less wounds.

Except the Artillery Barrage specifically has a very different scatter:

On a HIT, it scatters 2d6" in the direction of the mini-arrow.
On a MISS, it scatters 3d6" in the direction of the arrow.

If the Ordnance Officer has line of sight to the designated location, he can subtract his BS from the shot.

That's a pretty big difference; with a Mortar as a 'spotting round', it has a 33% chance of hitting it's location, and a 66% chance of scattering.

This means a hit on the mortar will have your Ordnance Barrage scattered no more than 4" (1.5"+2.5" radius, assuming a 'miss' on the Ordnance Barrage roll), vs the average of 7" (3" with LOS) if it hit on it's own (assuming no LOS).

This has 4 possible results:

1. [11%] Mortar Hits; Artillery Barrage Hits.
Result: No scatter at all and can overlap.
Completely negates Artillery Barrage's 2d6" scatter on hit and allows fine control of template placement.

2. [22%] Mortar Hits; Artillery Barrage Misses.
Result: Artillery Barrage scatters no more than 4" from chosen location.
Completely negates Artillery Barrages 2d6" Scatter on hit, and shaves 8" off the maximum scatter distance (4" if LOS).

3. [22%] Mortar Misses; Artillery Barrage Hits.
Result: Artillery Barrage can land no more than 8" from the target. Negates Artillery Barrages 3d6" scatter on miss (avg 10.5" scatter)

4. [44%] Mortar Misses; Artillery Barrage Misses
Totally off - upwards of 16" off, but still less than the maximum scatter of the Artillery Barrage on it's own.

This is most overpowered in the mortar hit cases, rather than the misses. If we assume the first roll would be the roll the Artillery Barrage would have received - the Mortar hits compare to the Barrage hits, the Mortar misses compare to the Barrage misses - we're talking significant benefit, 4"-12" less scatter distance, which is nearly 2x to upwards of 5x the radius of the template.


Oh yes, chimeras have actually got infinitely more nasty. I believe as an added bonus, all shots are measured from any point on the chimera.

Incorrect, up to 5 models inside can fire from the top hatch. It's quite specific about it.

AllisterCaine
12-04-2009, 11:09
Incorrect, up to 5 models inside can fire from the top hatch. It's quite specific about it.

That's not all it says though. It says in reality, the models are firing from the lasgun ports as well so shots may be measured from the chimera itself. You might want to double check that (if you can right now), I was actually looking forward to doing this.

And on the mortar issue, the MoO's shot goes from being significantly inaccurate to being simply inaccurate if the trick indeed works. All Im saying is that even with the mortar, it can't really be depended on. Also, not to mention that by doing this, you are cutting off 2 valuable veterans in the command squad to do anything else that's more useful, like taking a special weapon, medic, or banner, etc. It also means that your CCS will usually be even farther away than normal meaning its effective order range is even less.

chinnfrequent
12-04-2009, 12:08
That's not all it says though. It says in reality, the models are firing from the lasgun ports as well so shots may be measured from the chimera itself. You might want to double check that (if you can right now), I was actually looking forward to doing this.

How things work in reality have no bearing on game mechanics. It clearly states that all shots are to be taken from the hatch.

Latro_
12-04-2009, 12:32
yea, i'd call some bs on measuring someone firing a flamer from the lasgun hatch but placing the template from like the front corner of the tank or something stupid. The rule book is pretty clear as i remember that you measure from the firing point, and it does not take a degree in partical physics to realise that's gonna be the hatch at the top or any of the 6 lasgun ports

actually on that note, if you do fire a flamer from the hatch, surely on a 6 you penetrate the side armour? hehe. perhaps the firing point rules in the rule book stop this, however i dont have it to hand right now.

JustTony
12-04-2009, 12:56
I've had a couple of brief looks at the book. I only have a few issues and those are issues of omission.

1. My Chimeras all have the Forgeworld autocannon turrest installed, and there is no AC option in the new dex. Looks like I'm still stuck with having to use FW rules to have my AC toting Chimeras.

2. No Vulture. I'm not sure why any one would take a Valk over a Vendetta. Both carry same amount of troops and the Vendetta has 3 TL lascannons for 30 more points. No brainer there. I'm seeing LOTS of FW Valks on eBay all of a sudden.

3. I didn't notice a specific list option to do Elysian Drop Troops. Did I just miss it? If so I guess I'll have to continue with the FW list for my Drop Troop army.

Otherwise the codex looks great. My brother normally runs an Armored Company and he's planning on building up his infantry in Chimeras and running a tank heavy regular list.

Great, more pie. :D

All in all looks like a great codex.

Peace: through superior firepower.

Heimlich
12-04-2009, 13:06
Power sneak!!!!
I don't want to just cry power sneak. But I'm drunk and I'm just reading this now.

JoeGuardsman
12-04-2009, 13:34
Looks like I'm still stuck with having to use FW rules to have my AC toting Chimeras.

I don't know why any one would take a Valk over a Vendetta.

I hope the people you play with can just agree on a certain point value for an AC upgrade. The reduced points for the Chimera is kind of important so you can't use the straight FW rules.

I'm thinking of using the regular Valk to keep the weapons systems infantry based. Out Flanking or coming through reserves at the right place with a 5" blast can be pretty powerful. The Vendetta is a very efficient way to deal with monstrous creatures though.

JustTony
12-04-2009, 14:20
I hope the people you play with can just agree on a certain point value for an AC upgrade. The reduced points for the Chimera is kind of important so you can't use the straight FW rules.

I'm thinking of using the regular Valk to keep the weapons systems infantry based. Out Flanking or coming through reserves at the right place with a 5" blast can be pretty powerful. The Vendetta is a very efficient way to deal with monstrous creatures though.



The AC turret was a simple 15 point upgrade in IA 1. I don't see a reason that the new codex should neccessarily invalidate that. Tournaments, well, maybe, but for "friendly" games or Apocalypse stuff I would argue that the AC turret should still just be a 15 point option for the Chimera. Also FW is pretty good about getting online FAQs and updates out for their stuff fairly quickly. I still wish the Vulture was in the list, just about everything else from FW model range for basic IG was included.

antin3
12-04-2009, 16:39
No more lasguns for sergeants? Come on man, I am not changing the sergeants I already have that are packing lasguns, I mean I have 10 squads painted and another 10 squads being built.

TheOneWithNoName
12-04-2009, 16:44
No more lasguns for sergeants? Come on man, I am not changing the sergeants I already have that are packing lasguns, I mean I have 10 squads painted and another 10 squads being built.

No kidding. Boneheaded move by the designer, among many, in the new codex. :wtf:

NotElite
12-04-2009, 16:52
Yeah, WTB 6+ Tallarn Sageants. Feh!

For me the Orders system and Cheap Platoons are become a vestigial part of the codex. It seems like mounted vets and 15+ AV 12+ hulls are the way to go, especially for us older players.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
12-04-2009, 17:05
Forgeworld released an update which costed the Chimera autocannon at 5 points, for Inquisitor's anyway, but there's no reason why they should cost a different amount for IG.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/ia2-update.pdf

gamer2456
12-04-2009, 17:46
No more lasguns for sergeants? Come on man, I am not changing the sergeants I already have that are packing lasguns, I mean I have 10 squads painted and another 10 squads being built.

*glances at all ten built (with superglue) and painted sergeants, all armed with lasguns*

weak...

Death_to_the_Xenos
12-04-2009, 18:11
First Rank FIRE! Second Rank FIRE!
*Squad opens fire*
*Sergeant fumbles around trying to fire Lasgun*
*throws lasgun on ground and draws Laspistol*

:wtf:

Why cant our sergeants take lasguns now. its not like they dont know how to use them, as when they joined the imperial guard it was what they were taught to use

now i have to convert 6 sergeants and as well as my officer with storm bolter

damm GW as they dont think logicaly

totgeboren
12-04-2009, 18:20
Hmmm, in the IG rumour thread, it explicitly says that a Sgt may take a lasgun or laspistol/ccw or a shotgun.

I know thats in no way official, but I think I will need to have a look for myself before I start cutting up my dudes.

doskar
12-04-2009, 18:41
I just had a look. No option for lasguns on infantry squad sgt.

Marneus Calgar
12-04-2009, 19:33
So just to get confirmation, we can shoot other weapons besides the lasgun out of chimera's through the firepoints? For example, could my vets can fire their plasma guns out of the chimera?

Spacker
12-04-2009, 19:50
2. No Vulture. I'm not sure why any one would take a Valk over a Vendetta. Both carry same amount of troops and the Vendetta has 3 TL lascannons for 30 more points. No brainer there. I'm seeing LOTS of FW Valks on eBay all of a sudden.

Vultures should still be useable from IAv1, and with the PDF update due imminently will hopefully be lower cost. eBay UK has only 2 FW Valks listed right now that I can find, it looks more like everyone is hanging onto them now the new codex is about to come out. No reason to sell them either - the Vendetta parts are not in the box, they were shown at the FW open day as an upgrade pack from FW, so should fit the FW Valks too. My FW Valks don't have any wing weapons glued in place (I use magnets) so I can switch them to Vendettas if I need to - although those 30pts per aircraft might end up being spent elsewhere.



3. I didn't notice a specific list option to do Elysian Drop Troops. Did I just miss it? If so I guess I'll have to continue with the FW list for my Drop Troop army.


You can take Veterans as Troops, use Valks and/or Vendettas from Fast Attack to transport them and your command squads, give your Stormtroopers deep strike. You'll be missing a few non-codex options (support aircraft, tarantulas, drop sentinels with melta/heavy bolter).

Hopefully IAv3/4/5/6 will get the included lists adjusted to account for the points changes as my DKoK now look somewhat pricey points wise compared to a codex equivalent list.

Maine
12-04-2009, 20:10
That's not all it says though. It says in reality, the models are firing from the lasgun ports as well so shots may be measured from the chimera itself. You might want to double check that (if you can right now), I was actually looking forward to doing this.


Yes, it says "in reality, several are firing from the fixed lasgun emplacements" then says "for simplicity we assume all shots to be taken from the hatch." It explicity states twice in the paragraph that all firing is done from the hatch.


2. No Vulture. I'm not sure why any one would take a Valk over a Vendetta. Both carry same amount of troops and the Vendetta has 3 TL lascannons for 30 more points. No brainer there. I'm seeing LOTS of FW Valks on eBay all of a sudden.

An effective transport has to move. The Vendetta can only fire one LC if it moves more than 6". The two purposes are at odds. On the other hand, the regular Valkyrie makes a good transport + anti infantry; with rocket pods (same cost as Vendetta) can move 12", fire its multi laser and both rocket pods, which will be very useful for thinning out hostiles in the potential LZ.

The Vulture is better as a Flier where it benefits from the ability to move anywhere on the table and still fire all of it's weapons, -12" on range to hit, hit only on 6s, no template hits, only then only destroyed on a 6. That kind of mobility and survivability is going to be hard to represent with a skimmer. If you're opponetns are cool with it, just use the IA:A one (IA:A is not Apoc only; its the official replacement for IA Update 2006.). Granted, it's not as heavily armed as the Vendetta, and doesn't come in squadrons (yet) but it will survive a lot longer.


I just had a look. No option for lasguns on infantry squad sgt.

I can second that. Pity. I didn't usually care to run my sarges differently.

Hi_ex_lover
12-04-2009, 20:14
Psyker Battle squad and a Callidus assassin...

So long as targets Ld is reduced to 4 or below, then her weapon is double the targets 'toughness', so wounding on a 2+, and causing ID. AP1, IIRC ( or some kind of not allowing many/any saves, anyway ) and a template weapon, so no cover saves.

Sounds like it kills nob bikers and such like on 2+.
And it doesn't rely on using otherwise useless units either, they both have multiple roles...

I don't think that's quite right... From reading the codex the other day it affects 1(the targetted) models Ld, not the whole squad... so if the sergeants' leadership is nuked to 2, you'd roll for Ld using the next highest Ld model in the squad, usually 7 or 8. And as far as i remember, the neural shredder works off of the models BASE leadership, ie when i'm nuking a SM command squad, i need 6's to wound the captain, and 5's on the other marines, or against a current IG command squad, 5's against a HSO, and 3's to wound on the regular Ld7 guardsmen.

Maine
12-04-2009, 20:25
I don't think that's quite right... From reading the codex the other day it affects 1(the targetted) models Ld, not the whole squad... so if the sergeants' leadership is nuked to 2, you'd roll for Ld using the next highest Ld model in the squad, usually 7 or 8. And as far as i remember, the neural shredder works off of the models BASE leadership, ie when i'm nuking a SM command squad, i need 6's to wound the captain, and 5's on the other marines, or against a current IG command squad, 5's against a HSO, and 3's to wound on the regular Ld7 guardsmen.

The codex states it reduces the enemy unit's Leadership.

Griefbringer
12-04-2009, 20:30
No more lasguns for sergeants? Come on man, I am not changing the sergeants I already have that are packing lasguns, I mean I have 10 squads painted and another 10 squads being built.

Perhaps from amongst those models being built, you could pick out 10, equip them accordingly and paint them up as sergeants for your existing squads.

Of course, if you have painted your existing models with squad marking this would mean some extra work, since you would need to re-do some of those existing markings.

invinciblebug
12-04-2009, 20:41
I'm thinking of taking a valk with missile pods and a Vendetta, they both cost the same and a dual missile pod is better at killing orks than a battlecanon is. Plus the valk can move 12'' and still fire a it's multi laser and both missile pods.

Maine
12-04-2009, 22:07
I'm thinking of taking a valk with missile pods and a Vendetta, they both cost the same and a dual missile pod is better at killing orks than a battlecanon is. Plus the valk can move 12'' and still fire a it's multi laser and both missile pods.

It's very possible to take both, but be warned you can't squadron Valkyries with Vendettas, so they will occupy two different slots.

Hi_ex_lover
13-04-2009, 00:11
The codex states it reduces the enemy unit's Leadership.

mmm... my bad.

Also: nice!

Taipan
13-04-2009, 01:36
Air Cavalry armies I think will become the new 'power build' for IG (next to Executioner spam). You can fit the following into 2,000pts;

HQ: Commissar Lord, plasma pistol, powerfist, carapace
(105 points)

Troops:

(6) Veteran Sarge w/plasma pistol+powerfist
7 x Veterans w/shotguns, 2 x Veterans w/meltaguns, Veteran w/heavy flamer, 'Grenadiers'
(165 points each)

Fast Attack:

(3) 2 x Vendettas
(260 points each)

Heavy Support:

Basilisk
(125 points)


In that army, you have 18 x twin-linked lascannons, 12 x meltaguns, 7 x plasma pistols, 6 x heavy flamers, 42 x shotguns and a Basilisk cannon. That's a staggering amount of firepower, especially considering all but the Basilisk are highly mobile and can Outflank.
In close-combat, they're L10 Stubborn (due to Commissar) Stormtroopers with S6 hidden powerfists.

You've really got all your bases covered with this army. There are 6 scoring units. It's highly mobile, it has prodigious quantities of anti-tank/2+ save firepower, while the massed shotgun+heavy flamer should be more than sufficient for other infantry (and you have the option of a follow-up charge to finish off the remnants, because they're all armed with Assault weapons). Finally, there is a distraction unit in the form of the Basilisk, which is dumping ordnance blasts onto large squads of MeQ's.

Snotteef
13-04-2009, 01:54
Sergeants not being able to have lasguns is GRADE-A stupid!!! I suggest that existing players do NOT convert. It's really not a big deal if he's holding a lasgun, but counts as laspistol & ccw; it's not like anyone's going to confuse it for an existing option (since there isn't one like that).

I second the idea that valkyries are better in their role as troop transports than are vendettas. It was eloquently put in the previous post, so I won't add any new arguments.

kultz
13-04-2009, 01:58
Odd.

Remember the older days, when the only troops that had close combat weapons are the ones who need it for the bonus?

Now, almost everything in the guard book has a close combat weapon. Even down to the conscripts. There is no bonus, since few model has access to pistols.

Odd, it's as though they have some sort of plan with all those CC weapons lying around.

Wolflord Havoc
13-04-2009, 02:08
People keep coming up with 'power builds' for the new codex :cheese:

Personnally I am more interested in how my 'existing' Guard are going to be affected.

Reading through the forums it looks like most of my Sgts will be affected as I like many others decided that the idea of arming them with Las Pistol and CC weapon was made of fail - so didn't and kept them armed with a Lasrifle.

As I do not go to tournaments I think I will ignore this one!!

Not sure how my 3 Veteran Squads are affected - are they still elite choice's?

Looks like my 3 Hell hounds and 2 LR Exterminators are fine but not sure what my LR Annialator is going to do - perhaps I will use it as a counts as Vanquisher for now?

Over all though (apart from what I have heard about heavy weapon teams being on large bases after I spent time and effort moving them onto seperate base's :rolleyes: again something I will just ignore if true) I think this sounds like a good codex and can't wait for it to come out.

gamer2456
13-04-2009, 02:53
^ agreed, the codex is great, it just doesnt make sense to include 5 lasguns on a sprue with 5 legs and a bunch of heads (including a sergeants) and expect people to only use 4 of the lasguns

back on topic, now that chimeras are much cheaper, i'm going mechanized. Bastonne also sounds pretty awesome (not sure how well he'll do gameplay wise, but his backstory is cool), so he'll get some game-time.

Explodingboy
13-04-2009, 04:10
I got to say I'm not to happy with the missing lasgun for sargents.. I think I might just have to common sense and such agreements with gaming partners and just house rule or lasgun in there.

Otherwise I can't wait to get hold of the new dex, and start scrawling out all sorts of fun lists. Especially air cav, although I know I'll never play them. The valks are just too big physically to justify such a large number of them on the table for most standard games.

dingareth
13-04-2009, 04:25
So being as insane as I am, I'm working my way through a Death Korp army right now, and after buying $500 worth of troop squads, I now learn that every sergeant I have is invalidated...

Wow.

Shoot dang, Forgeworld doesn't even make a normal infantry model with Laspistol and Close Combat Weapon. So after all the time I spent giving individual Guardsmen grenades so that they'd be WYSIWYG, I learn this. Great.

Although, I cannot wait to be sending 50 man squads across the board with 5 Flamers and a Commisar! I'm going to need a whistle to start off my movement phase.

InquisitorPalpatine
13-04-2009, 04:26
I don't know if this has already been posted or not, but I was just on the US GW web site and noticed that the cadian infantry squads have already been changed to a 10 man box for $22 and the box description dosen't list anything thats not already included with the current box set but does also say that it comes with other parts to personalize your sargents and troopers.
I was really hopeful that they might throw in a sprue from the command squad box set that would at least give us a plastic melta, plasma gun, and maybe even the sniper rifle bits for the extra $4.50 were having to fork out now. This would seem to make sense with the way their trying to give you pretty much all the squad options in a box set(you still wouldn't get a heavy but they have a seperate plastic box for that) and trying to go all plastic.

Maine
13-04-2009, 06:36
Air Cavalry armies I think will become the new 'power build' for IG (next to Executioner spam). You can fit the following into 2,000pts


<snip>



In close-combat, they're L10 Stubborn (due to Commissar) Stormtroopers with S6 hidden powerfists.


Only the squad the Commissar Lord is with.



You've really got all your bases covered with this army. There are 6 scoring units. It's highly mobile, it has prodigious quantities of anti-tank/2+ save firepower, while the massed shotgun+heavy flamer should be more than sufficient for other infantry (and you have the option of a follow-up charge to finish off the remnants, because they're all armed with Assault weapons). Finally, there is a distraction unit in the form of the Basilisk, which is dumping ordnance blasts onto large squads of MeQ's.

You've got your anti-tank tied up as transports; you won't be moving your units into position and shooting all of those Lascannons at the same time. You have a very large and tall stand model giving you a huge visibility profile, likely to draw fire from everywhere. Your Basilisk will die quickly.

It looks like a fun build to play, and likely could fare well. Is it the pinnacle of IG lists? I really doubt it - I think you'll find it can fall apart at times, as fails to make use of the real strength of the Guard - Diversity.

Treadhead_1st
13-04-2009, 07:19
I am personally stuck with the new codex.

I've got a ~1250 point core list worked out (3x Platoons, 2x Russ, Sentinel, Storm Troopers + Mortars), but what to add from there is a nightmare. There are just so many options that are equally viable that could bring a lot to my army.

I'm going to have to have a long, hard think about which way the army goes now - do I add a couple of Chimera squads for added mobility? Veterans? More Tanks? How about some of those Skimmers? Then there are Conscripts and Commissars, special characters and so on.

Solar_Eclipse
13-04-2009, 07:21
Hey Treadhead, what about Psykers? :P Psykers are awesome too! :P

AllisterCaine
13-04-2009, 07:24
The Commissar Lord is an IC. It's not really a "hidden" powerfist. If he attacks, stuff are going to attack him back. He'll die very fast. Might as well take Yarrick if you want to use him for that purpose. IMO, 2 CCS seems like the best choice anyways. Besides, that means you can have Creed and Straken in the same army. A ridiculous amont of orders and a hardcore close combat CCS anyone?

As for the Valkyrie, it can carry a lot of anti-infantry firepower. 2x Heavy bolters, 2x MRPs, and a Multilaser all for about 150 pts. However, the guard really doesnt need more anti-infantry IMO. For transports, Chimeras are like twice as cheap, effective, and carries with it a respectable amount of firepower. In fact, it's so good and cheap that you can actually use it just as a light tank, or purely a transport- it doesnt even have to be a in-between unit.

Vendettas is the IG's main anti-armor vehicle. It's mobile, and its firepower is almost that of 6x heavy weapon teams. Vanquishers are quite useless in that role, and heavy weapons seriously lack mobility. Sentinels are still quite expensive. Artillery seems unreliable, although they do pack a punch, especially the Medusa's AT round.

Air cav lists are definitely not going to make it a competitive army. Like Maine said, diversity is the IG's main power.

As for the sergeant that can't take a lasgun. Really? What's next? Vanquishers that can't fire standard rounds? Oh wait, that actually matters! :rolleyes:

Fellblade
13-04-2009, 07:42
Vendettas is the IG's main anti-armor vehicle.
I disagree. While all those lascannons are nice, these days lascannons don't seem to do the job when it comes to popping vehicles.
On the other hand, a Medusa with the special round can fire off a Str10 shot with an extra die for armor penetration, I don't remember if it was AP1 or not. Since its an indirect shot there won't be a cover save against it either.
You've also got the Devil Dogs with their melta cannon and multimelta. Being a fast vehicle it can keep firing both on the move.
The Vanquisher isn't a bad tank either when Pask is driving it. Even if the anti-tank round misses, you've still got a lascannon headed down range too.

There's plenty of anti-tank choices now, I'd hardly call the Vendetta the "main anti-armor" one. Now, if I was dropping off melta armed vets or stormtroopers to go tank hunting, sure I'd fly them in with a vendetta so it could take some shots too. Your AT choice is going to be based on the rest of your army. Some work better with certain army builds than others.

Raxmei
13-04-2009, 08:14
I disagree. While all those lascannons are nice, these days lascannons don't seem to do the job when it comes to popping vehicles.
On the other hand, a Medusa with the special round can fire off a Str10 shot with an extra die for armor penetration, I don't remember if it was AP1 or not. Since its an indirect shot there won't be a cover save against it either.
You've also got the Devil Dogs with their melta cannon and multimelta. Being a fast vehicle it can keep firing both on the move.The Medusa is actually direct fire only. It still allows any applicable cover saves and is really vulnerable if you leave it out of cover. Its special shot is indeed S10 Ap1 with +2d6 armor penetration, but it's a small blast and you lose the ability to use the large blast when you take the upgrade.
On the plus side, those are ridiculously deadly stats that could easily kill many tanks even on a near miss. The Devil Dog is slightly less killy and has shorter range but it's a bit tougher.

Oh, and there is the Manticore. Indirect capable, S10 2d6 pick highest, 1d3 blasts.

Maine
13-04-2009, 08:44
As for the sergeant that can't take a lasgun. Really? What's next? Vanquishers that can't fire standard rounds? Oh wait, that actually matters! :rolleyes:

On the other hand, he's automatically a Veteran Sgt, so Ld 8, 2 Attacks, and can take power weapon, bolt pistol, plasma pistol... nothing that really matters (other than the Ld 8, which will be important without leadership bobbles or vox network leadership)

Boss Zagstruk
13-04-2009, 11:37
can u make a nice catachen list from the army book??

Marshal Sinclair
13-04-2009, 11:48
can u make a nice catachen list from the army book??

Yes, you have most things from the Catachan list in there, including Heavy Flamers and the Catachan characters!

freddieyu
13-04-2009, 12:31
People keep coming up with 'power builds' for the new codex :cheese:

Personnally I am more interested in how my 'existing' Guard are going to be affected.

Reading through the forums it looks like most of my Sgts will be affected as I like many others decided that the idea of arming them with Las Pistol and CC weapon was made of fail - so didn't and kept them armed with a Lasrifle.

As I do not go to tournaments I think I will ignore this one!!

Not sure how my 3 Veteran Squads are affected - are they still elite choice's?

Looks like my 3 Hell hounds and 2 LR Exterminators are fine but not sure what my LR Annialator is going to do - perhaps I will use it as a counts as Vanquisher for now?

Over all though (apart from what I have heard about heavy weapon teams being on large bases after I spent time and effort moving them onto seperate base's :rolleyes: again something I will just ignore if true) I think this sounds like a good codex and can't wait for it to come out.

Your veterans are now troops choices..rejoice!!!

Heimlich
13-04-2009, 12:47
Power sneak!

Captain Micha
13-04-2009, 13:01
Vet's as Troops really gave the codex the shot in the arm it needed in my opinion.

It let the Doctrine players have what they needed. Without screwing us over in the process like the Doctrine system did.

The new tanks.. even if the sponsons are abit over costed mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmm good... Plas Cannon Russes that can fire -everything-. mmmmmmm :)

I like everything in this new codex. Except for Vox and Ogryn.

Air Cav Guard will be really powerful, *use them kinda like Fish of Fury with Vet squads..... triple plasma* But balanced as that model is HUGE.

Shinnentai
13-04-2009, 13:16
Hrm, are you people *sure* that sergeants in infantry squads can't take lasguns? The 5th IG summary in the rumours section states they have lasguns and may replace them with laspistol/CC or shotgun, and UI distinctly remember a post in one of the rambling threads stating no lasguns for sergeants being shot down as nonsense.

Doctrine players didn't get screwed over? Well so far I'm feeling pretty screwed over! I've been building a carapace armoured army for a while (slow-slow XD) - and as far as I can see yes I can have carapace armoured vets, yes I can have carapace armoured company command - is that it??? What about my rough riders? What about my HW teams? Speaking of HW teams, I have to remodel them on huge bases? I assume the lasguns I modelled onto them are now non functional?

Yes I can work round this by sticking my Heavy Bolters into my infantry squads (and ignoring the save on RRs) - but I was wanting a tide of armoured infantry moving forward while the HW teams supported. The codex has switched from forcing me to put carapace armour on all my unit types, to only allowing me to put it on two!

It's OK though! Look at all these new tanks we've got! They really open up loads of new tactical and background options right??? Hmm....

burni
13-04-2009, 13:21
Hrm, are you people *sure* that sergeants in infantry squads can't take lasguns? The 5th IG summary in the rumours section states they have lasguns and may replace them with laspistol/CC or shotgun, and UI distinctly remember a post in one of the rambling threads stating no lasguns for sergeants being shot down as nonsense.

I'm afraid it's true - the codex listing does indeed say laspistol for Sergeants. And the only options are to change it (or his ccw) to a power weapon or plasma pistol.

Charax
13-04-2009, 13:59
Yeah, that struck me as odd, but my sergeants almost always took LP&CCW anyway.

The vets-as-troops and no 1+ on Infantry platoons thing means I can still run my carapace Guard force, although I miss out on a lot of stuff for making that choice, not least of all being very limited in the number of Orders I can dish out.

Vehicle squadrons are great, and really give the impression that guard armies are supposed to be huge. I love most of the Russ variants, and I can't wait to start converting up a couple of Punishers and an Executioner.

The Primaris psyker in a psyker battle squad is a sick, brilliant idea - Nightshroud + Weaken Resolve is a potentially crippling combination, especially in MEQ armies relying on small numbers of units.

The only thing that disappointed me in the new Codex was that some more of the Chimera's FW weapon options weren't included - specifically the Autocannon and Twin Heavy Bolter turrets, but that's a tiny thing in comparison to the quality of the rest of the book.

Captain Micha
13-04-2009, 14:09
Doctrine players didn't get screwed over? Well so far I'm feeling pretty screwed over! I've been building a carapace armoured army for a while (slow-slow XD) - and as far as I can see yes I can have carapace armoured vets, yes I can have carapace armoured company command - is that it??? What about my rough riders? What about my HW teams? Speaking of HW teams, I have to remodel them on huge bases? I assume the lasguns I modelled onto them are now non functional?

Yes I can work round this by sticking my Heavy Bolters into my infantry squads (and ignoring the save on RRs) - but I was wanting a tide of armoured infantry moving forward while the HW teams supported. The codex has switched from forcing me to put carapace armour on all my unit types, to only allowing me to put it on two!

It's OK though! Look at all these new tanks we've got! They really open up loads of new tactical and background options right??? Hmm....


Yah, because only the squads that you -want- to give Carapace can have them. You can Mass Vets, and if you are really crazy throw in some Storm Troopers. You wouldn't give Carapace fluff wise to Joe Boot Camp Guardsmen anyway. He's too undertrained for that!

Why are you fielding HW squads? Just throw the HW guys into your new Vet squads and you are set!

Trust me only putting it on squads that you -want- to give it to rather than be -forced- to is a good thing.

As a Tanith style player I can't begin to describe to you the super buff we got thanks to Vets being our Go To guys for Doctrines rather than the entire army eating points.

Other than, I've gained a chimera, gained two squads of infantry, and two basilisks in my army lists.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 14:21
Hmm if its true Srg's cannot have lasguns.. looks like i need to work on putting together 20x Laspistol/ccw guys..

glad i have 30 unassembled guardsmen setting for reasons like this lol.

Lewis
13-04-2009, 14:22
Can anyone take boltguns? sarges?

Charax
13-04-2009, 14:33
Can anyone take boltguns? sarges?
Aside from the HQ choices (those without fixed equipment, anyway):
Stormtrooper sergeants
Platoon Commanders
Commissars

Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants cannot have boltguns

Raxmei
13-04-2009, 14:43
Doctrine players didn't get screwed over? Well so far I'm feeling pretty screwed over! I've been building a carapace armoured army for a while (slow-slow XD) - and as far as I can see yes I can have carapace armoured vets, yes I can have carapace armoured company command - is that it??? What about my rough riders? What about my HW teams? Speaking of HW teams, I have to remodel them on huge bases? I assume the lasguns I modelled onto them are now non functional?Heavy weapons teams are armed with a heavy weapon and a lasgun, but since they are now single models of infantry type can only use one at a time. Carapace heavy weapons teams are only for command squads and vets with carapace. Rough riders are flak only.

Bolt guns (as opposed to bolt pistols) can be taken by platoon commanders, commissars attached to same, storm trooper sergeants, lord commissars, and company commanders. Everyone who can take a plasma pistol except for rough rider rider sergeants (probably an unintentional omission) can take a bolt pistol, which is pretty much everyone with the word "sergeant," "commander," or "commissar" in his name.

Lewis
13-04-2009, 14:49
it's a waste on normal guard squads but its a real waste on the vets who only exist to sharp shoot.

freddieyu
13-04-2009, 15:13
Hmm if its true Srg's cannot have lasguns.. looks like i need to work on putting together 20x Laspistol/ccw guys..

glad i have 30 unassembled guardsmen setting for reasons like this lol.

Most of us will do the same, and I bet a lot of us have unfinished models or sprues of guardsmen...there's more where they came from!!!

Solar_Eclipse
13-04-2009, 15:15
Heavy weapons teams are armed with a heavy weapon and a lasgun, but since they are now single models of infantry type can only use one at a time. Carapace heavy weapons teams are only for command squads and vets with carapace. Rough riders are flak only.

There is a little known rule in the rulebook where a model is allowed to fire as many guns as it has heads. It was made for the Space Marine attack bike, the same exists here.

MrBims
13-04-2009, 15:21
There is a little known rule in the rulebook where a model is allowed to fire as many guns as it has heads. It was made for the Space Marine attack bike, the same exists here.

That is specifically under the Bike Shooting rules, so it doesn't apply to HWTs. "Each bike may fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike".

Solar_Eclipse
13-04-2009, 15:22
Yeah, crap, i just found that.

Thats highly annoying.

Oh well, i dont use Heavy Weapons :P

Lewis
13-04-2009, 15:45
i'm going to remodel my vet sarge as he's so distinctive looking but to behonest i'm going to expect people to accept that a lasgun armed sarge has the standard load out so long as he (or in one case she) is clearly a squad leader.

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 16:03
There is a little known rule in the rulebook where a model is allowed to fire as many guns as it has heads. It was made for the Space Marine attack bike, the same exists here.

Shame the rule doesn't exist in quite this form, or spawn would be almost good. 6 heads, so I'm firing 6 times...

I'm going to be using underslung grenade launchers as my sergeant markers. No in game effect, but they look right.

A quick tally through the new list has presented me with one problem. The most expensive possible army has shrunk rather. Using rough totals, as I'm not 100% sure on some option costs and such like, I get to a maximum of 18,350 pts for one FOC. The old one is almost 4k higher than that!

MrBims
13-04-2009, 16:16
A quick tally through the new list has presented me with one problem. The most expensive possible army has shrunk rather. Using rough totals, as I'm not 100% sure on some option costs and such like, I get to a maximum of 18,350 pts for one FOC. The old one is almost 4k higher than that!

...Problem? How is this a problem? The moment you go above 3,000, you start going into apocalypse territory and the FOC goes right out the window. None of the codexes are meant to be playable beyond 3,000 with standard FOC, especially not if you have to trick out every single unit as high as their wargear limits will allow.

blackroyal
13-04-2009, 16:30
Heavy weapons teams are armed with a heavy weapon and a lasgun, but since they are now single models of infantry type can only use one at a time.
This is the one fault I have with the new dex. My Mordian gunners each have a lasgun molded onto their bodies, but now I cannot use both? On Top of that I have to come up with 20+ 60mm bases. Oh look, I can buy them 3 for $5 USD... what a deal. Also anything S6 or more will instantly kill the HW team.

Gah... well they had to do something to make people buy more tanks. :rolleyes:

Bunnahabhain
13-04-2009, 16:34
The current book FOC gets to about 12,000 points, just by using sensible options, and useful upgrades, like heavy weapon, transports and useful doctrines. It comes out as a powerful mechanised heavy infantry force.

Guard lists have always worked better in higher points levels. Several armies start to run out of useful options at 2,500 to 3000pts, Guard ones are scarcely getting started there.

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 16:37
Hey! Here's something interesting!

The EXACT wording for Heavy Weapons teams in Infantry Squads and Veteran Squads is:

"Replace two guardsmen with a (Veteran) Heavy Weapons team armed with one of the following:"

Whereas ALL the other options, EVERYWHERE in the book say "May". Rules lawyers could argue that this FORCES you to buy a Heavy Weapon in every squad that can take one. Interesting, no? Not that I ever see this coming up... ever.

Raxmei
13-04-2009, 16:43
A quick tally through the new list has presented me with one problem. The most expensive possible army has shrunk rather. Using rough totals, as I'm not 100% sure on some option costs and such like, I get to a maximum of 18,350 pts for one FOC. The old one is almost 4k higher than that!I count 24294 without resorting to special characters.

Marshal Sinclair
13-04-2009, 18:18
Hmm if its true Srg's cannot have lasguns.. looks like i need to work on putting together 20x Laspistol/ccw guys..

glad i have 30 unassembled guardsmen setting for reasons like this lol.

And those of us with Krieg armies do what exactly?

decker_cky
13-04-2009, 18:20
Yea....the reconnaissance veterans were definitely designed with catachans (and tanith) in mind. 60 veterans with stealth and move through cover, and lots of places to fit in demo charges, heavy flamers, etc, along with 3 catachan special characters means that deathworld veterans do quite well in this list.

decker_cky
13-04-2009, 18:21
And those of us with Krieg armies do what exactly?

Wait for the imperial armour krieg update to be released for free online. :rolleyes:

Fellblade
13-04-2009, 19:00
The Medusa is actually direct fire only.
Where did you see that? The only exception in the artillery units I saw was the Colossus must fire indirect. I'm pretty sure every one of the artillery pieces is tagged as "Indirect Fire, Open-Topped".

AlexCage
13-04-2009, 19:04
Where did you see that? The only exception in the artillery units I saw was the Colossus must fire indirect. I'm pretty sure every one of the artillery pieces is tagged as "Indirect Fire, Open-Topped".

Probably the leaked summary sheet, where neither of the Medusa's weapons (Bastion Breaker Shells or Medusa Siege Gun) say "Barrage".

Remember, vehicles aren't indirect, weapons are.

SPYDER68
13-04-2009, 19:10
Only Indirect artillary squad tanks is the bassie, griffon, Collossus.

Guess thats 3 outa teh 4.

SaGa Jr
13-04-2009, 19:12
Where did you see that? The only exception in the artillery units I saw was the Colossus must fire indirect. I'm pretty sure every one of the artillery pieces is tagged as "Indirect Fire, Open-Topped".

Actually both the Griffon and the Colossus fires only indirect (cannot fire directly), while the Medusa cannot fire indirectly. The Medusa's gun is not a barrage weapon, its a simple siege cannon (like a long barrelled demolisher cannon).

Spacker
13-04-2009, 21:00
Hey! Here's something interesting!

The EXACT wording for Heavy Weapons teams in Infantry Squads and Veteran Squads is:

"Replace two guardsmen with a (Veteran) Heavy Weapons team armed with one of the following:"

Whereas ALL the other options, EVERYWHERE in the book say "May". Rules lawyers could argue that this FORCES you to buy a Heavy Weapon in every squad that can take one. Interesting, no? Not that I ever see this coming up... ever.

The same wording is used in the Company Command and Platoon Command squad too, so it's not like these 2 squads have "unique" wording. In fact, every squad that is allowed to take a Heavy Weapon team, other than Heavy Weapon squads (as they already have a heavy weapon and can simply exchange it) use exactly the same wording.

And given that these are listed under the title "OPTIONS", why would anyone think they are compulsory? Unless of course GW have redefined the word "option" in the English language ;)

kultz
13-04-2009, 21:06
I have the darn book in front of me and the only artillery piece in the squadron that cannot fire directly is the Colossus and Griffon.

Also, yes, the summary notes the Medusa gun is NOT barrage.

So the artillery squadron is composed of:

Basilisk: General purpose artillery, can fire both indirectly and directly.

Medusa: Siege gun, direct.

Colossus: Super Mortar, ap3 big blast, no cover.

Griffon: cheap but big mortar. Not as effective but half the price.

Shadesfox
13-04-2009, 21:26
Also, the Griffon can reroll the scatter dice. The accurate bombardment rule.

And if someone is going to argue that vet squads must take heavy weapons then I would take them to the back of the store and... fix their understanding of the rules.

Fellblade
13-04-2009, 21:45
Also, yes, the summary notes the Medusa gun is NOT barrage.
Oh, okay. Didn't have much time with the book so didn't notice that. Even still, that's a hell of an anti-tank weapon. 48" range and a minimum armor penetration roll of a 12 at AP1.

kultz
13-04-2009, 21:51
Oh, okay. Didn't have much time with the book so didn't notice that. Even still, that's a hell of an anti-tank weapon. 48" range and a minimum armor penetration roll of a 12 at AP1.

Still has cover saves to worry about.

If you can get a clear shot in, it's pretty darn effective.

Even at half strength, it would still chew up light transports.

Potentially effective against massed rhinos.

NotElite
14-04-2009, 03:04
And that is why they did it. Imagine the barrage rules on that thing. Good grief. No chance of obscured vehicle with AP 12+ minimum with barrage...

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 03:09
And that is why they did it. Imagine the barrage rules on that thing. Good grief. No chance of obscured vehicle with AP 12+ minimum with barrage...

And always hitting side armour ;)

Raxmei
14-04-2009, 03:36
Even at half strength (near miss) it's enough to worry a Land Raider. Penetrate on a 10+, glance with a chance at killing on a 9. That's a 1/6 chance at penetrating with Ap1, better than a lascannon hit.

decker_cky
14-04-2009, 03:36
And +1 on the damage chart. It'd be alright. ;)

totgeboren
14-04-2009, 08:30
Are you sure the bunkerbuster shell (the S10 Ap1 shell for the Medusa) gots 2D6 AP vs vehicles?

I donīt remember it even having the ordnance rule? How come it gets a "minimum armor penetration roll of a 12"?

Raxmei
14-04-2009, 08:34
Are you sure the bunkerbuster shell (the S10 Ap1 shell for the Medusa) gots 2D6 AP vs vehicles?

I donīt remember it even having the ordnance rule? How come it gets a "minimum armor penetration roll of a 12"?Quite certain it's 2d6. It isn't ordnance but 2d6 is better than ordnance unless you're shooting at a monolith or wave serpent.

Shadowphrakt
14-04-2009, 08:42
This is a mistake I'm seeing a lot. Pask does not give +1 AP to your weapons, he gives you +1 to your armor penetration roll.

Yup - though I'm sticking him in my Vanquisher - Oh, thats a Land Raider? hurr hurr hurr...


And Extra Armour isn't expensive. It the same price as now, every army except Inquisition.

AllisterCaine
14-04-2009, 08:49
Yup - though I'm sticking him in my Vanquisher - Oh, thats a Land Raider? hurr hurr hurr...


And Extra Armour isn't expensive. It the same price as now, every army except Inquisition.

There are better options for anti-tank than putting Pask into a Vanquisher...

Extra Armor is expensive. It's cost has increased by 300% for most vehicles compared to the old codex. It is a ridiculous price and I don't see a reason why that is.

Medusa is still highly vulnerable. It lacks good armor and it is the only direct fire artillery weapon. If you're going to use it, it is best to buy the Camo for it and put it behind a fortification for a 2+ save.

totgeboren
14-04-2009, 08:51
Quite certain it's 2d6. It isn't ordnance but 2d6 is better than ordnance unless you're shooting at a monolith or wave serpent.

Oh, ok. So both the Vanq and the Medusa (with upgraded shells) got 2D6 Ap?
hmmmm, so the Medusa is like a Hammerhead, only better. :P

Raxmei
14-04-2009, 09:25
hmmmm, so the Medusa is like a Hammerhead, only better. :PMinus two feet of range, a point of armor off the front, two off the sides, no large blast option (bastion breacher replaces the original profile), no disruption pod option, and being closed topped costs extra. It's a better tank destroyer but a worse tank.

Sholto
14-04-2009, 10:45
How about a WH Elite Inquisitor, joining a Psyker Battle Squad packed into a Chimera?

If the Inquisitor takes Divine Pronouncement, they can target one squad per Turn within 6" move + 18" range, lower Ld to 2 and force them to fall back.

If you add Creed to the army, the unit can outflank, which would be enormous fun against an army deployed along a table edge!

If the Inquisitor takes Scourging and you add a Primaris Psyker, the Chimera is thowing out an awesome amount of mobile firepower; 3D6 high strength shots, a S9 APD6 5" blast plus whatever weapons the Chimera has (ML, HB and Pintle HS?).

With Iron Hand Straken to give my Death Cult Assassins or Arco-flagellants Furious Charge. I can imagine I will be having a lot of fun with this new codex.

Sholto

Wolf123
14-04-2009, 11:35
Quite certain it's 2d6. It isn't ordnance but 2d6 is better than ordnance unless you're shooting at a monolith or wave serpent.

Wouldn't ordinance that rolls 2D6 roll 2 dice for each and pick the highest? Or does the 2d6 rule overrule the regular ordinance rules?

MrBims
14-04-2009, 12:18
Wouldn't ordinance that rolls 2D6 roll 2 dice for each and pick the highest? Or does the 2d6 rule overrule the regular ordinance rules?

The Medusa with Bastion-breacher shells is not ordnance. It simply rolls an extra d6 for armor penetration and adds the total together.

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
14-04-2009, 12:27
I love the new dex. I made a list for my army with it on Thursday and am pretty happy.

Cheaper Command Squads (Company and platoon), Chimeras and Squads are nice. Moving Vets to troops is brillant. The lumbering behemoth rule is great and priced fairly. I can't wait to finish my Elysians and have an Air Cavalry list! (my second 1500pt+ IG army).

I also made an extreme list for 1750 pts for the fun of it. All the armour 12 is fragile, but that's alot of accurate pie plates raining down with a ton of meltaguns. I would never be able to play this list due to the 9 Griffons, but it would be hell on Nids and Orks. All the saves might be enough to cause fits for MEQs as well. That comes to 17 tanks and 65 infantry.

Company Command
3xmeltaguns in retinue
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Vets w/3x meltaguns
Chimera

Griffons x3

Griffons x3

Griffons x3

Barbarossa
14-04-2009, 14:46
So what now, 3/4 of my Vostroyan army now have no carapace armour any more? When did that happen?

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 14:56
So what now, 3/4 of my Vostroyan army now have no carapace armour any more? When did that happen?

Run them as The new Hardened Vets with Carapice armor..

Can still run 60 Infantry with the carapice for troops.

Marshal Sinclair
14-04-2009, 16:52
How is everybody else with Vostroyan, Elysian or Krieg armies dealing with the fact we now need to spend hundreds upgrading watchmen to have pistols and swords?

Killgore
14-04-2009, 17:21
How is everybody else with Vostroyan, Elysian or Krieg armies dealing with the fact we now need to spend hundreds upgrading watchmen to have pistols and swords?

none at all!

my sargs are so skilled at close quarters combat they can use their lasgun like a sword and pistol :D

petpetpetpet
14-04-2009, 18:35
Yeah the new Guard look good on paper.

That Valkyrie army will be crap all of the vehicles are Open-topped armour 12, so easy to kill them even with Tyranid Gunzzzzz :> All of those Leman Russes will be a massive pain in the butt0x all of that armour 14 :<

Lash chaos won't have a problem though cos they can just lash the tanks into meltagun fire and rape them in melee with the princes. Orks in combat with IG rear armour and a abundance of powerklaws too = deaddead IG. IG have nothing to deal with Seer Council, they can quite easily beat everything else there.

How much Space Mareen rapeage tools do they have? xD Ahmahgawd....

At least it has put IG on the map though if nothing else.

Thanks,

Pet

FraustyTheSnowman
14-04-2009, 18:58
You should reread the chaos codex...especialy the part about how lash works. Also, guard has been on the map from the getgo of 5th. From what I've heard, valks aren't oppened topped.

On the subject of krieg/elysians/vostroyans...there are weapon pacs for the krieg command. Yeah, expensive and a pain, but we're talking about krieg...if expense was an issue you should have bought cadians (so sayeth the guy who always bitches about the ammount forgeworld costs). Elysians need some conversion, but most forgeworld kits are a pain to get together anyways, so if you have a butt ton of elysians you're probably a compitent modeler. Vostroyans?! They have metal sgts with pistols...where's the problem? All in all, as has been said already just keep the guys with rilfes and call it a laspistol and CCW...this really isn't worth being upset over. Are you any more screwed then irion warrior players who have basilisks setting arround now collecting dust? Did you tell them to suck it up when they through a fit? Well...suck it up.

SPYDER68
14-04-2009, 18:59
Valks Definatly arent Open Topped :P

you cannot Lash Armor.

DaemonPrinces will go down to Las Cannon Spam with Take them Down Order.

Valk flys up to prince, unloads a Tri plasma gun squad and rapid fires 6 BS 4 plasma into him and a BS 4 plasma pistol.

Or rather.. 2x Vendetta's scout move 24" getting 4+ cover saves.. shoot 6 twin linked lascannons into the lash prince, = dead lash prince while they set there with 4+ cover save for your next shooting phase.

Spacker
14-04-2009, 19:58
About the Kreig/Elysians - expect FW to release update PDFs for the various IG units/lists in the IA book like they did for IAv2 when the Marine came out. Until then I'll be holding fire on doing anything to my Kreig figures :)

The Song of Spears
14-04-2009, 20:04
I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon from a different perspective and state that i think the new guard codex is awesome! And i can not wait to play against it. Its so full of character and flavour that it just makes the game a joy to play. I sincerely hope GW takes this new line of codex creation with tons more stuff (which seems to be totally against what they appeared to be doing with the chaos codex and to a lesser extent the eldar codex)

special rules, wargear and units FTW!!!!

Akuma
14-04-2009, 20:10
And Guardsman Marbo :D I cant wait to conver two things ...

Catachan with long dark hair and an red bandana :]

Comand Squad with

1. White Haired Guy with a cigar
2. Catachan with the 3 rows of hair on his head - I think its in nex catachan comand squad - painted Black with lods of extra golden chains modeled from the green stuff.
3. Guy in pilot vest and blue baseball cap
4. A model looking like barbbie old time favouret Ken :D

Together thay will be A Command Squad .... :D

( My idea - dont even try to steal it :D )

Landsknecht
14-04-2009, 23:12
I overall love the new codex, and I'm very greatful for the reduced points cost in terms of Infantry and lower tier weapons like flamers and grenade launchers. I might actually take Commissars now. I'm a little disapointed the leadership bubble is gone, but Ld8 Veteran Sergeants and cheaper leaders, as well as orders (even though the orders don't make sense. "Shoot that tank more, private!" "Yes sir!") ought to bridge the gap nicely.

I also like the reorganized FOC. Leaves room for more tanks, more veterans, basically more of everything. Fluffy additions like the Psykers, special advisors, and Penal Legionnaires are welcome as well.

I don't like the changes to Hot-shots/Hellguns. I'd rather they be normal lasguns but Assault 3, since AP3 on an S3 weapon seems kind of pointless. It's like hitting an armored trooper with a super duper armor piercing dart, but at the end of the day you're still just hitting them with a dart.

The lumbering behemoth rule for Leman Russ tanks is a very welcome addition too, and the reduced points Chimera makes a good Mechanized Veteran squad more attractive than it was previously. An 5 squad Infantry platoon, backed up by the Company Command, two mechanized Veteran Squads, a Leman Russ squadron and some Hydras will be pretty nasty, and its the setup I hope to take in the future.

The Special Characters are cool, but as a Guard player I have an inherent distrust of high-points single model units. They're good, but too many points for a 1.5/2k game.

The only thing I don't like about the new Guard are the prices :(

Formerly Wu
14-04-2009, 23:46
Or rather.. 2x Vendetta's scout move 24" getting 4+ cover saves.. shoot 6 twin linked lascannons into the lash prince, = dead lash prince while they set there with 4+ cover save for your next shooting phase.

Might want to review the rules for moving and firing. You only get all 3 lascannons if you move 6 inches or less, and only 1 can fire if you move up to 12 inches.

Rule of thumb for the vendetta: you can either race around the board or you can tank hunt, but you can't do both.

FraustyTheSnowman
15-04-2009, 03:07
I think he's thinking that if he moves 24 for his scout move that if he doesn't move durring his movement phase he gets the cover save for going all out while still being able to shoot all weapons. My guess...

Scout move 24 to close the distance, get the cover save, move six into cover, and hit the target with 3tl lascannons. Not the best way to do it, but might be the best way to do it with a vendetta.

I think if you're using one or two, and the points value of the game isn't too low, go for the vendetta, as after you drop off the cargo you can provide cover fire. If you're going for an air calv type army, get the valks and look for anti armor in other avenues.

Marneus Calgar
15-04-2009, 03:25
I think he's thinking that if he moves 24 for his scout move that if he doesn't move durring his movement phase he gets the cover save for going all out while still being able to shoot all weapons. My guess...

Scout move 24 to close the distance, get the cover save, move six into cover, and hit the target with 3tl lascannons. Not the best way to do it, but might be the best way to do it with a vendetta.

I think if you're using one or two, and the points value of the game isn't too low, go for the vendetta, as after you drop off the cargo you can provide cover fire. If you're going for an air calv type army, get the valks and look for anti armor in other avenues.

I believe that you can’t get the cover save from moving 24 inches in the scout move. The rule says that the vehicle gets a cover save if it moves flat out in its previous movement phase. Since the scout is don’t before the game starts, it is not done in the previous movement phase. Also, if you manage to get 1/2 of the Vendetta into cover (cover 1/2 of a baneblade which is about 7 inches in the air), I will congratulate you myself. ;)

Imperius
15-04-2009, 04:30
I believe that you can’t get the cover save from moving 24 inches in the scout move. The rule says that the vehicle gets a cover save if it moves flat out in its previous movement phase. Since the scout is don’t before the game starts, it is not done in the previous movement phase. Also, if you manage to get 1/2 of the Vendetta into cover (cover 1/2 of a baneblade which is about 7 inches in the air), I will congratulate you myself. ;)

They moved, its like saying that in a sport you somehow get open surprisingly, but nope doesn't count.

Fellblade
15-04-2009, 07:21
Also, if you manage to get 1/2 of the Vendetta into cover, I will congratulate you myself. ;)
Its not that difficult depending on what terrain you have. Tall buildings should work fine, forests on hills depending on the size of your trees, and so on. Besides, if the shooter is close to a piece of even modest height terrain, their point of view may well be obstructed enough for a cover save... or even if they're shooting out of more than 2" of area terrain.

On the subject of Valkyries... can squads disembark on a scout move? I don't recall seeing that in the book but I remember someone saying they could.

Also, does anyone know first hand how tall those flight stands are for the Valks? I've got a FW one I've been finishing up and I'd like to keep its fight stand somewhat close to what GW is going to provide, but since its such a heavy slab of (fragile) resin I'm a bit worried about elevating it too much. Right now I've got it sitting with the belly about 5" off the tabletop. Its nose is tilted down so its tail rises to about 12" at the highest point. I don't want people whining if mine is flying than it "should" be.

Brucopeloso
15-04-2009, 10:25
On the subject of the lasgun option for sargents (or lack thereof) as a guard opponent I will be more than happy to either let you have the lasgun or to count your lasgun armed model as armed with LP and CCW (unless your army is half assembled and unpainted). :)

I don't know in tournies but in friendly pick up games 95% of opponents will not make a fuss and the 5% that does is best left alone anyway. :wtf:

I look forward to see face competitive and diverse guard armies! :D

Taipan
15-04-2009, 12:10
Can I just ask that people stop bitching about Sarges losing their lasguns. For fraks sake, who cares? Your opponent won't care either way (it's a lasgun), you shouldn't care (again, it's one lasgun shot). Just drop it and critique meaningful problems with the list. There is no point wasting your energies on such an irrelevant issue.


On the subject of Scouting Valkyries/Vendettas, I'm sure of the following facts, but I'm unsure how they interact;

- You can disembark from a Valkyrie/Vendetta even if it does go 'flat-out'. If it moves 12" or less, you disembark like normal. If it went 'flat-out' in the same Movement phase, you can disembark but the unit will have to pick a point along which the Valkyrie/Vendetta. They then use the Deepstrike rules, and automatically take a Dangerous Terrain test when their final position is determined.
- A Valkyrie/Vendetta that moves 'flat-out' can't shoot any weapons, but will gain a 4+ cover save
- You can move 'flat-out' when making a Scout move

I believe this is the progression therefore;
- When you move 'flat-out' with the Scout move, you don't get a 4+ cover save (the entry does specify 'previous Movement phase')
- On your 1st turn, the Valkyrie/Vendetta operates like normal, so you can move+shoot+disembark like the Scout move never happened

Could be wrong, but thats the way it looks (until we get a FAQ).

In any case, I wouldn't Scout with Valkyries/Vendettas, Outflanking is a much more powerful ability (imagine massed Outflanking Valkyries/Vendettas packing Veterans/Stormtroopers/Grey Knights/Sisters, while two Company Command squads with an Astropath each bringing them all in on a 2+ on Turn 2).
Unlike with Deepstriking armies, Outflank is completely controllable (the Astropaths even let you re-roll which side you bring on each squadron) and there is no defence against it (DH Mystics can't help you). Infantry screens work against Genestealer Outflank, but Valkyries/Vendettas can just fly over whatever screen you put in place and still strike at the heart of an opposing army with impunity.

Jey
15-04-2009, 12:19
Scout = previous Movement phase

Bloodknight
15-04-2009, 12:28
Outflanking could also be an issue. The rulebook allows units with an ability to outflank to confer that ability to a dedicated transport (not a Land Raider with Chaos Chosen for example). But can you outflank with a Valk transporting a unit that cannot outflank by itself? The rulebook doesn't say anything about this. If it cannot, IIRC only Penal Legion and STs could outflank with a Valk.

(That is a rules discussion going on on a German forum by our tournament crowd).

Akuma
15-04-2009, 13:17
"Outflanking could also be an issue. The rulebook allows units with an ability to outflank to confer that ability to a dedicated transport (not a Land Raider with Chaos Chosen for example). But can you outflank with a Valk transporting a unit that cannot outflank by itself? The rulebook doesn't say anything about this. If it cannot, IIRC only Penal Legion and STs could outflank with a Valk"

Very Very good question sir ! That would make Storm Troopers slightly better - as thay are only other thing that is able to go in the Valk and has scout if you choose it ...

Bunnahabhain
15-04-2009, 13:44
Or any part of the platoon of Captain Outflanker... ( Al haraim, sp? I will learn it really!)

FraustyTheSnowman
15-04-2009, 13:59
Scout = previous Movement phase

Well, that's one opinion. I dissagre.

SPYDER68
15-04-2009, 14:10
Id haft to read it for vehicles again.

But for bikes, bye RaW if you turbo Boost in scout move, you get cover save in enemy next shooting phase.

So technically a seer council can boost 24" in scout, then charge a unit first turn, then get a cover save vs the enemy's shooting.

This might be possible for Skimmers, ill haft to read the Flat out again to double check, but i have a feeling there is a good chance it works and may be cheesy, its RaW

4+ cover save at opponets first shooting phase even if you got to go first and shoot.. Sounds good to me :P

its dumb, its possibly RaW id haft to read once again to verify it works for skimmers :P

Landsknecht
15-04-2009, 15:09
its dumb, its possibly RaW id haft to read once again to verify it works for skimmers :P

Luckily we have Hydras with target-tracking autocannons for this. I'm going to thoroughly enjoy swatting Skimmers with my sci fi-ZSU-23

Fellblade
15-04-2009, 16:11
But can you outflank with a Valk transporting a unit that cannot outflank by itself? The rulebook doesn't say anything about this.
I would say yes for the same reason that a space marine tactical squad gains the ability to deepstrike when they ride in a drop pod. They didn't need the ability "deepstrike" before stepping into the drop pod.

petpetpetpet
15-04-2009, 18:24
Valks Definatly arent Open Topped :P

Hmmm u sure, when I read the dex I thought they were, guess I read it wrong.


you cannot Lash Armor.

Hmmm I see people doing it all the time, especially at Tourneys, guess they need to re-read the Chaos codex :)


DaemonPrinces will go down to Las Cannon Spam with Take them Down Order.

Depends, if it's from Valk's then yeah cos they're twin-linked, if it's off normal GM/HWT's then no cos IG's BS is appauling. I presume the "Take them down order" is like a psychci power with short-ranged?


Valk flys up to prince, unloads a Tri plasma gun squad and rapid fires 6 BS 4 plasma into him and a BS 4 plasma pistol.

The Chaos oblits will want to shoot the valk down before that happens :p I'd personally keep my army in reserve to stop the Vakyrie dirty scout trick.


Or rather.. 2x Vendetta's scout move 24" getting 4+ cover saves.. shoot 6 twin linked lascannons into the lash prince, = dead lash prince while they set there with 4+ cover save for your next shooting phase.

Yeah, just keep your army in reserve so you always get the first shot.


I don't play Lashchaos so don't really care to be honest.
I play a Nidzilla list and the army concerns me, if Valks aren't open-topped im screwed. If it's lots of floaty lascannons I think 2 VC's and, 5 barbed stranglers is capable of stunning 6 tanks a turn so they can't shoot until Nids get close where they eat them up.

vs Heavy tank armies I will most definitely have to invest in some outlanking stealers and rape them at the rear armour in combat. IG templates don't really bother my MC army as it's no more than 1 wound per tank and I can stun them to stop them shooting.


The new IG are very good tho will have to watch out for that bs4 plasma vets, that's very dirty but counterable by keeping your army in reserve.
The gatling cannon will be pain though :>>>

Thanks,

Pet

SPYDER68
15-04-2009, 18:45
Hmmm u sure, when I read the dex I thought they were, guess I read it wrong.



Hmmm I see people doing it all the time, especially at Tourneys, guess they need to re-read the Chaos codex :)



Depends, if it's from Valk's then yeah cos they're twin-linked, if it's off normal GM/HWT's then no cos IG's BS is appauling. I presume the "Take them down order" is like a psychci power with short-ranged?



The Chaos oblits will want to shoot the valk down before that happens :p I'd personally keep my army in reserve to stop the Vakyrie dirty scout trick.



Yeah, just keep your army in reserve so you always get the first shot.


I don't play Lashchaos so don't really care to be honest.
I play a Nidzilla list and the army concerns me, if Valks aren't open-topped im screwed. If it's lots of floaty lascannons I think 2 VC's and, 5 barbed stranglers is capable of stunning 6 tanks a turn so they can't shoot until Nids get close where they eat them up.

vs Heavy tank armies I will most definitely have to invest in some outlanking stealers and rape them at the rear armour in combat. IG templates don't really bother my MC army as it's no more than 1 wound per tank and I can stun them to stop them shooting.


The new IG are very good tho will have to watch out for that bs4 plasma vets, that's very dirty but counterable by keeping your army in reserve.
The gatling cannon will be pain though :>>>

Thanks,

Pet

Take them down = target squad gets to re-roll to hit vs Tanks and monstorus creature.

Soo.. if a winged hive tyrant gets close.. a vet squad can shoot 6-7 plasma shots into it that is twin linked dropping it in 1 squads shooting.

and yea.. if your chaos players there are using lash on tanks.. All i have to say is "serously?"


When an IG player can have up to 9 Valks, Good luck getting them all killed fast and easy.

Senbei
15-04-2009, 18:52
And given that these are listed under the title "OPTIONS", why would anyone think they are compulsory? Unless of course GW have redefined the word "option" in the English language ;)

Exactly what I was going to say. Exerything under 'Options' is optional. If they say otherwise send them out to buy the new "Codex: Dictionary".

40kdhs
15-04-2009, 18:56
That Valkyrie army will be crap all of the vehicles
Pet

new IG Valkyrie army = Tau mechanized army. They pretty much have the same play style. IG is better than Tau.

AlexCage
15-04-2009, 19:40
Exactly what I was going to say. Exerything under 'Options' is optional. If they say otherwise send them out to buy the new "Codex: Dictionary".

Welp. You have an 'option' of what Heavy Weapon you want to take!

Kinda like how old Lemans had the 'option' of a hull HB, or hull LC, but they had to take one or the other.

Grindgodgrind
15-04-2009, 20:04
I really like the new IG codex. I think my 'video nasty' army is going to start construction soom.

Vaktathi
15-04-2009, 20:12
Hmmm u sure, when I read the dex I thought they were, guess I read it wrong. Valks are not open topped, only scout sentinels and artillery.



Hmmm I see people doing it all the time, especially at Tourneys, guess they need to re-read the Chaos codex :) They are playing it wrong, flat out. It specifically says non-vehicle unit.




Depends, if it's from Valk's then yeah cos they're twin-linked, if it's off normal GM/HWT's then no cos IG's BS is appauling. I presume the "Take them down order" is like a psychci power with short-ranged? Take them Down is an order given by the officer that causes a squads weapons to count as twin linked when firing against a vehicle or monstrous creature.




vs Heavy tank armies I will most definitely have to invest in some outlanking stealers and rape them at the rear armour in combat. That's why IG have the officer of the fleet, -1 to your reserve rolls and forces you to reroll the board edge you ouflank from. That and IG have no shortage of bodies or lesser tanks to bodyblock those LR's if played right.


IG templates don't really bother my MC army as it's no more than 1 wound per tank and I can stun them to stop them shooting. Single templates no, but multiple templates or heavy rate of fire will. Battlecannons, Vanq cannons, Eradicators and Demo cannons are kinda lame against TMC's, but 5 Plasma Cannons's and a lascannon will scare most TMC's, as will 4 autocannnon shots coupled with 3 heavy bolters and a stubber, or 32 shots from a punisher will present a larger threat.

Damocles8
15-04-2009, 20:44
I'd really like to see them Errata 2 things....

1. Sergeants with Lasguns....

2. Co-axial weapons for the Vanquisher.....start with a Stormbolter......upgrade to Autocannon at 5 points or so......


Other than that I love this codex.....

Maine
15-04-2009, 21:40
Regarding "Take Them Down", remember the range restriction on orders. 24" max and that's if you have Creed; 12" otherwise from a Company HQ. They'll also have to pass a Ld test on the receiving unit's Ld. Vox doesn't extend the range, it only grants a reroll.

Fellblade
15-04-2009, 21:47
2. Co-axial weapons for the Vanquisher.....start with a Stormbolter......upgrade to Autocannon at 5 points or so...
That's more than errata, that's adding a weapon to a vehicle, adding a new rule to the game, then adding an upgrade option. Coaxial rules don't exist in 40k, only in apocalypse.

Vaktathi
15-04-2009, 21:48
That's more than errata, that's adding a weapon to a vehicle, adding a new rule to the game, then adding an upgrade option. Coaxial rules don't exist in 40k, only in apocalypse.

Technically, it's what the model actually has on it, at least the current versions.

Vineas
15-04-2009, 22:19
good thing i have 3 lictors in my nid army....reroll 3 reserve rolls/turn......penalty my ass, i'm still gonna get what i want when i want it.

:D

MrMojoZ
15-04-2009, 22:25
That's more than errata, that's adding a weapon to a vehicle, adding a new rule to the game, then adding an upgrade option. Coaxial rules don't exist in 40k, only in apocalypse.

The Forgeworld rules covered co-axials as well.

AllisterCaine
15-04-2009, 23:17
Just use the forgeworld rules for the vanquisher, it's better anyways. The co-axial heavy stubber /storm bolter is just a bonus.

Erratas cannot add new stuff to the codex, it doesn't work that way. Get over the lasguns already, this thread is not meant to be a compilation of silly complaints.

Marshal Sinclair
15-04-2009, 23:52
Erratas cannot add new stuff to the codex, it doesn't work that way. Get over the lasguns already, this thread is not meant to be a compilation of silly complaints.

Tell that to the Dark Eldar book...

Fellblade
15-04-2009, 23:58
Just use the forgeworld rules for the vanquisher, it's better anyways.Have fun with your av12 sided tank then... or did you mean cherry picking only the rules you want from all available books?

JoeGuardsman
16-04-2009, 02:14
How did I troll through what seemed like a never ending stream of posts in the Rumor Summary page for no one to mention that the Griffon Heavy Mortar gets a re-roll to hit?

75 points for incredibly accurate Ordinance Barrage and I only have two right now.

Grindgodgrind
16-04-2009, 10:31
Anyone notice you could quite happily take an allied Inquisitor, a Culexus Assassin and two Psyker battle squads? Assault 20 Animus Speculum, anyone?

RTB01
16-04-2009, 11:06
earthshaker min range 36 - i'm guessing this is only for indirect?

Wolf123
16-04-2009, 11:59
earthshaker min range 36 - i'm guessing this is only for indirect?

Yes, there is never a minimum range for direct fire so far as I know

SPYDER68
16-04-2009, 14:01
only thing that cannot fire directly is the Colossus.

Raxmei
16-04-2009, 14:03
only thing that cannot fire directly is the Colossus.And Griffon and Deathstrike.

Spacker
16-04-2009, 14:12
Welp. You have an 'option' of what Heavy Weapon you want to take!

Kinda like how old Lemans had the 'option' of a hull HB, or hull LC, but they had to take one or the other.

But if a heavy weapon was compulsory the squad would have been given one of the heavy weapons as standard, and then had the option to switch, just like Heavy Weapon Squads; or have had the word "must" in the option like the Special Weapon Squad has. The old Leman Russ is no comparison as that used the word "must" in reference to the hull weapons.

And it's whelp, you missed the h. Assuming you meant child/youth/young offspring (and if you did, you must be old! I'm old enough to be a parent, or possibly even grandparent, for 95% of the Warseer population, although not all at once!) :evilgrin:

Lovejoy
16-04-2009, 15:23
The EXACT wording for Heavy Weapons teams in Infantry Squads and Veteran Squads is:

"Replace two guardsmen with a (Veteran) Heavy Weapons team armed with one of the following:"

and



Welp. You have an 'option' of what Heavy Weapon you want to take!

Kinda like how old Lemans had the 'option' of a hull HB, or hull LC, but they had to take one or the other.


The EXACT wording is: Composition: 1 Sergeant, 9 Guardsmen, Wargear: Lasgun (Sergeant has laspistol instead), Close-combat weapon, Frag Grenades.

So no Heavy Weapons required. In the Options list, you have the OPTION to 'Replace two Guardsmen with a Heavy Weapons Team...'

Spacker is right. Nothing ambiguous about it - the entry is clear, you do not have to take a Team if you don't want to.

AlexCage
16-04-2009, 16:02
But if a heavy weapon was compulsory the squad would have been given one of the heavy weapons as standard, and then had the option to switch, just like Heavy Weapon Squads; or have had the word "must" in the option like the Special Weapon Squad has. The old Leman Russ is no comparison as that used the word "must" in reference to the hull weapons.

And it's whelp, you missed the h. Assuming you meant child/youth/young offspring (and if you did, you must be old! I'm old enough to be a parent, or possibly even grandparent, for 95% of the Warseer population, although not all at once!) :evilgrin:

Oh I know it wasn't MEANT to be mandatory. I just like playing at 'rules lawyer' (the Warhmmer version of a Devil's Advocate). It helps me head off the more stupid RAW arguements that might pop up from some of the more stupid rules lawyers may come up with.

Not even in my stupidest moments would I think you HAD to replace your Heavy Weapons. But with all the random, arbitrary changes with this Codex... well you never know!

And I actually meant welp, as in how people with a US Southerner's accent say "Well". It's my fault for being literary and typin' how I talk. (Though I can blame my parents for being from the South).

Lovejoy
16-04-2009, 16:27
Although it wouldn't have surprised me too much - nothing sells miniatures like mandatory choices...
Of course, nothing annoys players like being told what to buy, either!

SPYDER68
16-04-2009, 16:35
There isnt much in the new codex that is Mandatory besides 2 troops and 1 HQ

Lovejoy
16-04-2009, 17:15
No, and that's the way I like it!
The new codex is great - there's a lot of different army builds to be had, and I plan to have a lot of fun trying out as many as possible...

Spacker
16-04-2009, 17:32
Although it wouldn't have surprised me too much - nothing sells miniatures like mandatory choices...
Of course, nothing annoys players like being told what to buy, either!

Especially as there are no heavy weapons in the Infantry Squad box too, which would require buying heavy weapon teams to fill out the squads and leave extra men over :p

Wolf123
16-04-2009, 18:37
So why not buy Enough Heavy Weapon Squads so you have enough spare men for an extra squad!

Oooooh I see what you did there GW! Nice and Sneaky!

AllisterCaine
16-04-2009, 23:00
Have fun with your av12 sided tank then... or did you mean cherry picking only the rules you want from all available books?

I have no idea what you are talking about. The FW Vanquisher is a different tank that has AV12 on the sides, no LB special rule, and has a higher points cost.


Tell that to the Dark Eldar book...

What the hell is dark eldar?

This thread is getting way off topic. Let's go back to the part where we actually discuss some tactics, strategy or combos that can be used when the new codex comes out. Lets keep the trivial discussions and questions to a minimum.

DaSpaceAsians
17-04-2009, 00:57
Have fun with your av12 sided tank then... or did you mean cherry picking only the rules you want from all available books?

If you have a copy of IA 1, you can with opponent's consent, use the advanced battlecannon rules. That way your Vanquishers will get a large template that's str 8 AP2 and range 72'' and Lumbering Behemoth rule. You can also do like my buddies and I will: Making up a point cost for the Vanquisher to take HE shells and AP shells. Something like 30 pts or more. Of course that's if your opponent lets you. Otherwise, hope to the Emperor or the Machine God to get HE Shells in a errata (Yeah right)

Maine
17-04-2009, 01:17
If you have a copy of IA 1, you can with opponent's consent, use the advanced battlecannon rules. That way your Vanquishers will get a large template that's str 8 AP2 and range 72'' and Lumbering Behemoth rule. You can also do like my buddies and I will: Making up a point cost for the Vanquisher to take HE shells and AP shells. Something like 30 pts or more. Of course that's if your opponent lets you. Otherwise, hope to the Emperor or the Machine God to get HE Shells in a errata (Yeah right)

Well, if your opponent lets you, sure... but generally you have to take the whole unit as is; you can't pick a unit from one book, then apply a rule to a model in that unit from a similiarly named unit in another book that was written for the previous codex. Or take that tank as-is from IA1(of course, it doesn't come in squadrons then). They dont mix.

The second solution is better - if your opponent agrees on a points cost increase.

Of course, it could simply be that Vanquishers don't get normal shells for game balance reasons.

DaSpaceAsians
17-04-2009, 01:34
Well, if your opponent lets you, sure... but generally you have to take the whole unit as is; you can't pick a unit from one book, then apply a rule to a model in that unit from a similiarly named unit in another book that was written for the previous codex. Or take that tank as-is from IA1(of course, it doesn't come in squadrons then). They dont mix.

The second solution is better - if your opponent agrees on a points cost increase.

Of course, it could simply be that Vanquishers don't get normal shells for game balance reasons.


What do you mean game balance reasons?

Maine
17-04-2009, 02:00
What do you mean game balance reasons?

What I meant was that perhaps it was discovered during playtesting that allowing Vanquishers to double as LRBTs made them too powerful for whatever reason. Therefore, to balance the tank, it's ability to fire standard LRBT shells was removed.

I could see that having Vanquishers that can fire normal shells for 30 points more than an LRBT would practically eliminate the need for an LRBT, and the guard is all about specializing rather than general purpose.

An LRBT has about a 12% chance of penetrating AV13. It cannot pen AV14. It's AP3 makes it a good Marine killer.

A Vanquisher has a 36% chance to pen AV13, and a 29% chance to pen AV14. The AP2 helps against MCs/ICs.

Why WOULDN'T you take a Vanquisher that could do both, even if it cost 75 points more, unless your opponent didn't have vehicles?

The Vanquisher has it's purpose now - it's a dedicated tank hunter. They don't want it to replace the LRBT. If it could do both, even if it was 225 points, with AV 14/13/10, and the Lumbering Behemoth rule, it would be the ultimate non-superheavy tank.

DaSpaceAsians
17-04-2009, 02:41
What I meant was that perhaps it was discovered during playtesting that allowing Vanquishers to double as LRBTs made them too powerful for whatever reason. Therefore, to balance the tank, it's ability to fire standard LRBT shells was removed.

I could see that having Vanquishers that can fire normal shells for 30 points more than an LRBT would practically eliminate the need for an LRBT, and the guard is all about specializing rather than general purpose.

An LRBT has about a 12% chance of penetrating AV13. It cannot pen AV14. It's AP3 makes it a good Marine killer.

A Vanquisher has a 36% chance to pen AV13, and a 29% chance to pen AV14. The AP2 helps against MCs/ICs.

Why WOULDN'T you take a Vanquisher that could do both, even if it cost 75 points more, unless your opponent didn't have vehicles?

The Vanquisher has it's purpose now - it's a dedicated tank hunter. They don't want it to replace the LRBT. If it could do both, even if it was 225 points, with AV 14/13/10, and the Lumbering Behemoth rule, it would be the ultimate non-superheavy tank.

Good Point there

Wolf123
17-04-2009, 03:47
What the hell is dark eldar?
I really, really hope you are just joking here.

Maine
17-04-2009, 08:44
It's worth noting that when Vanquishers were available during 3rd edition, they were 35 points more than the basic Russ, and were a 0-1 choice because they were just that much better. However, it was also still just AP3. The IA1 book is similiar, but with longer range.

blameless
17-04-2009, 10:10
Psyker Battle squad and a Callidus assassin...

So long as targets Ld is reduced to 4 or below, then her weapon is double the targets 'toughness', so wounding on a 2+, and causing ID. AP1, IIRC ( or some kind of not allowing many/any saves, anyway ) and a template weapon, so no cover saves.

Sounds like it kills nob bikers and such like on 2+.
And it doesn't rely on using otherwise useless units either, they both have multiple roles...

ooohhhhh thats just evil :skull:

DaSpaceAsians
17-04-2009, 12:04
However, it was also still just AP3. The IA1 book is similiar, but with longer range.

Did you ever wonder why they changed the AP and range?

RCgothic
17-04-2009, 13:18
The Vanquisher has it's purpose now - it's a dedicated tank hunter.

The main cannon can't be relied upon to kill even one vehicle per game. Given a better balistic skill and AP1, it would be a decent tank hunter. Right now its only purpose is to suck.

lordbeefy
17-04-2009, 13:22
Just looked at the store copy codex...I had been prepared for my sgts being unable to use lasguns, but I was further annoyed by my sgts and command squad vets being unable to use bolters.....I have 2 lovely converted sgts and 2 lovely bolter armed vets as senior officer bodyguards that are now useless.

On a plus point, had a look at the new plasma cannon toting sentinel in the flesh, and aside from the staffers dodgy paintjob, it is simply gorgeous. I will be buying three of them to go with my current 12 (6AC 6LC).

Grand Master Raziel
17-04-2009, 17:07
Well, my current 1500pt IG list (in broad strokes) consists of a HSO, Command Squad (fairly basic, master-vox, Commissar), one Infantry Platoon with Command Squad and 4 Infantry Squads, a Chimera for the Command Squad, an Armored Fist Squad, 2 LRs and one LRD. I'm thinking I might add a second LRD (squadroned with the first) and a couple more Chimeras to bring it up to 2000pts. No guesses as to the composition of the infantry at this point, because I don't want to make those decisions based off rumors. I'll read the new dex then figure out what I want to do. I like to mech it up, though, so I figure on a healthy dose of Special Weapon Squads and/or Veterans. I'll probably field my Chimeras pretty much naked, too. 55pts is around half as much as I currently pay for them, which is awesome, but if Extra Armor costs as much as it does in the recent SM/CSM dexes, I'm thinking I'd rather leave it off my tanks entirely and just have more tanks.


The reason I'm going with a second LRD is that I happen to have the turret and track assemblies (complete with plasma cannon sponsons) kicking around, but not the hull. However, I think I can manage a hull out of plasticard. Turret ring will be the tricky bit.


Just looked at the store copy codex...I had been prepared for my sgts being unable to use lasguns, but I was further annoyed by my sgts and command squad vets being unable to use bolters.....I have 2 lovely converted sgts and 2 lovely bolter armed vets as senior officer bodyguards that are now useless.

That is kind of annoying. The sergeant of my Armored Fist Squad totes a bolter. Oh, well, I guess it's just one figure. Maybe I can use him as a relatively basic JO.

Modernjaco
17-04-2009, 17:33
I know I'm probably gonna sound really stupid...but where can I find a copy of the new Codex if it hasn't come out yet?

Marshal Sinclair
17-04-2009, 17:55
Most GW stores (all of them?) have a copy.

I have a friend who gives all of his Sgts a bolter, just because he liked the theme it gave him. Guess he can call them autoguns?

DaSpaceAsians
17-04-2009, 23:07
The main cannon can't be relied upon to kill even one vehicle per game. Given a better balistic skill and AP1, it would be a decent tank hunter. Right now its only purpose is to suck.

God only know how many time I wished that tank had better ballistic skill

AllisterCaine
17-04-2009, 23:13
I really, really hope you are just joking here.

Joking? A man of my intellect never jokes! You insult me sir.

Seriously, what are these "Dark Eldar" that you speak of? Are they Eldar? But like 2nd edition? And like dark, sadistic and emo instead of bright and jolly? And has spiky bits all over?

...

Anyways, I dont see why an opponent will refuse your using the IA 1 Vanquisher. It's not even a good tank!

Maine
17-04-2009, 23:34
Did you ever wonder why they changed the AP and range?


The main cannon can't be relied upon to kill even one vehicle per game. Given a better balistic skill and AP1, it would be a decent tank hunter. Right now its only purpose is to suck.

It was made longer range than the LRBT, but stayed AP3 like the LRBT, for IA1. The new codex keeps the range the same as the LRBT but increases AP to 2, likely to give it good anti-MC ability.

An LRBT could get at most 1 wound on an MC, and if that MC has Sv2+, then theres a good chance it was a wasted shot. The Vanquisher will make sure that wound is suffered unless the MC also has an Invuln.

Additionally, having 3x the chance of a penetrating shot against tanks than the LRBT, being able to pen Av14, gives them their own niche.

Yes, AP1 would have been very nice. Of course, people would still be complaining that they can't fire HE shells.

Put Pask in a Vanquisher and it increases its vehicle kill power by about 30%.

Marshal Sinclair
18-04-2009, 00:05
Joking? A man of my intellect never jokes! You insult me sir.

Seriously, what are these "Dark Eldar" that you speak of? Are they Eldar? But like 2nd edition? And like dark, sadistic and emo instead of bright and jolly? And has spiky bits all over?


They are a force that had much of their Codex changed and a new unit (Wych HQ) added in an Errata. Those changes were then released as a reprint of the Codex.

RCgothic
18-04-2009, 00:26
Put Pask in a Vanquisher and it increases its vehicle kill power by about 30%.

And makes it almost as expensive as an executioner if you give it a lascannon. I'd take the executioner every time.

There's just no task a vanquisher is good at. It really does suck in every possible way.

Fellblade
18-04-2009, 02:26
There's just no task a vanquisher is good at. It really does suck in every possible way.
You can keep telling yourself that, but my Vanquisher works just fine. Sure it doesn't have an ordinance template, but you can still sling multi-meltas or plasma cannons on the side and a lascannon up front.

Are there other things in the list that can kill vehicles? Sure. Kill them better? Sure. As survivable? No.

Besides, if its so horrible then your opponent will place a low priority on killing it giving it more time to plink away at enemy armor.

Rpait
18-04-2009, 03:11
Interesting note:

It appears that lumbering behemoth lets you fire your turret weapon even when shaken or stunned. It specifically reads "in addition to all weapons you would normally be able to fire", which I believe is the same way they wrote the additional weapon for the machine spirit rule. When shaken stunned, you are normally able to fire no weapons, but may fire the turret in addition.

Marneus Calgar
18-04-2009, 03:15
Interesting note:

It appears that lumbering behemoth lets you fire your turret weapon even when shaken or stunned. It specifically reads "in addition to all weapons you would normally be able to fire", which I believe is the same way they wrote the additional weapon for the machine spirit rule. When shaken stunned, you are normally able to fire no weapons, but may fire the turret in addition.


Most probably an oversight, but it would be a VERY welcome change. It would actually consider taking Leman Russ's in squadrons if they got to fire their battle cannons even if they were shaken. Still, I think this is an oversight. Though on second thought, "in addition to all weapons you would normally be able to fire" does not mean anything if you cannot fire any weapons that turn.

Vaktathi
18-04-2009, 03:15
And makes it almost as expensive as an executioner if you give it a lascannon. I'd take the executioner every time.

There's just no task a vanquisher is good at. It really does suck in every possible way.

I wouldn't say it sucks, rather that it's mediocre. It can knock out any tank out there much better than most other weapons. It's just that it lacks the utility of the other LR's and the IG have more efficient tank hunters like the Medusa and Vendetta.

totgeboren
18-04-2009, 09:13
yes, if you only look at the gun. None of the other anti-tank vechicles even approach the Vanq in resilience. The vehicle need to be alive to fire its gun, and the Medusa and Vendetta will stuggle in that department, whilst the Vanq can drive around with its phat front and sides all day. :)


The vehicle I feel is the closes competition to the Vanq is the Demolisher. I would say that its about as good vs vehicles, but alot better vs infantry. Only loses out on range, which in 40k isnt really that big a deal when you can drive 6" per turn and still fire.